Capital Region Catalysts: How Synergos is Powering Deep-Tech in the DMV and Backing a Nuclear Pioneer | The Pair Program Ep73

Speaker A: Welcome to the PEAR program from Hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of Hatchpad.

Speaker B: And I'm your other host, Mike Gruen.

Speaker A: Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups and career growth. Welcome back to the PEAR program. I am your host, Tim Winkler, joined as always by, uh, my co host, Mike Gruen. Mike, you're a, uh, Maryland local. Uh, do you know about the Calvert Cliffs nuclear power plant in Calvert County?

Speaker B: Uh, I know about Calvert Cliffs. I don't know that I knew that there was a nuclear power plant out there.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's a, there's a power plant over there. And want to take a guess on the percentage of electricity that it supplies to the state of Maryland?

Speaker B: Uh, I do not want to hazard a guess, uh, because I'm going to be wrong.

Speaker A: No matter what a wild number out

Speaker B: there, I'm not going to throw a wild. I'm getting 15% double that.

Speaker A: Yeah. So 30% of all electricity in Maryland is supplied by the Calvert Cliffs nuclear power plant and does so without emitting any carbon, per my research. Anyways, that's what I've got. But yeah, it's interesting. It's been operating since, uh, mid-1970s and it's, uh, I believe it licensed to operate through 2034, but just kind of wild to think about. You know, everybody's kind of chasing, you know, the new clean tech nuclear has been quite quietly kind of pulling its weight, uh, down the Beltway. And here's an example of something happening right in our backyard.

Speaker B: Uh, that's a good point.

Speaker A: Yeah. So it's, uh, it's a little bit of a teaser into, uh, what we'll be unpacking on today's episode. So we're going to be talking deep, uh, tech nuclear reinvention and how local capital in the DMV is fueling global impact. And to help us break all of this down, we've got two powerhouse, uh, guests joining us who are helping build the future of deep tech innovation right here in the dmv. Uh, first we've got Michelle Urban, who is a general partner at the Synergist Fund, a, uh, first of its kind venture firm investing in American resilience through energy, advanced manufacturing and, uh, sustainable materials. And, uh, alongside Michelle, we have Ed McGinnis, who's the founder and CEO of Curio, a, uh, nuclear innovation company that's rethinking how we power the planet. Um, and after Decades of leading U.S. nuclear energy policy at the Department of Energy, he's now doing this on the industry side with Curio. So, uh, with, with both of these folks here, we're going to dive into, know how local investments are driving global impact and, um, everything from reshoring supply chains to scaling, you know, mission driven companies right here in the dmv. I'm looking forward to it. So, Michelle, Ned, thank you both for joining us on the PEAR program today.

Speaker C: Pleasure to be here.

Speaker D: Thanks, Tim.

Speaker A: Awesome. All right, now, before we dive into the heavy stuff, we're going to kick things off with a fun segment that we call Pair Me Up. Uh, we're all go around the room, spitball. A pairing that, that just makes sense together. Mike, you're up first. What, uh, what do you got for us today?

Speaker B: Uh, so, yeah, so mine, uh, is, uh, as usual, inspired by recent events in my personal life. Um, I wouldn't say that they necessarily go well together, but they seem to always go together. And that is. Yesterday I went to the dentist and I don't know what it is about dentists and asking questions while you have a bunch of stuff in your mouth, but that's my pairing. Dentists and questions. Um, um, it's, it's always fun when they're and, and you can't just like, blink once or twice for yes and no. It's like, how is it going? I, you know, it's. Anyway, so that's my, that's my pairing all. Growing up, I've always had, uh, dentists that ask questions. I am very excited, though. Uh, for the last few years, we've had the same hygienist and she is phenomenal. She doesn't ask any questions. She just quietly hums and very, very pleasant and relaxing experience. But, uh, yeah, as best that we

Speaker A: like to not duplicate any pairings. It's getting this point because we've been doing this podcast for three years now, but that was one of my first ones was trips, uh, to the dentist and inopportune conversations. Oh, is it real?

Speaker B: I totally forgot about that.

Speaker A: It's one of my favorites, but it's a good one. Stands true today. It's like they never really quite learn that you can't respond, you know, when you got a bunch of galls in your mouth or whatever it might be.

Speaker B: It's funny because even as I was thinking, I was like, I feel like I might have done this one before and I looked through all the ones I'VE done and didn't see it. I forgot that to look through the ones that you had done, it's getting tough.

Speaker A: Um, cool. Yeah, it's super relatable. Um, excellent. I'll, I'll jump in real quick. Uh, with, with my pairing. So, um, I'm gonna go with, uh, summertime and splash pads. Um, so my wife and daughter, they've been making the rounds to all these local splash pads in the Northern Virginia area. Uh, and I feel like these weren't really a thing when I was a kid. I, I, I don't recall them. But now you can't really walk through like a town center without seeing, you know, these massive kind of like water fountains just kind of honestly offering tons of fun for kids. Uh, and I'd say the best perk of all is that they're, they're all free, uh, to enjoy. So, um, they're going to keep that up with the heat wave that's, that's blasting the region on the east coast. Uh, but that'll be my pairing for today is summertime and splash pads.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You band. Mike, have you ever explored one of these with the kids?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean we used to now the kids are older, but yeah, we used to do all that stuff.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, well, prime time for a two year old.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker D: I'm expert on that. I can tell you all the ones that we have in D.C. and one of the best is Langdon Pool. Um.

Speaker A: Oh, nice. Good plug.

Speaker D: So my pairing is a little bit unusual. I love soft serve ice cream with french fries.

Speaker A: Okay, I've heard, I've heard of this before. I've heard of it with like Wendy's Frosties actually is like a, a little bit of a hack. The fries and the frosty. Is there a, uh, a go to soft serve spot you want to throw out there?

Speaker D: Absolutely. Uh, UBE soft serve ice cream. Uh, Joya Burger, one of my friend's places. Newly open in Glover park in Mount Pleasant. But uh, I'm a big foodie and gosh, just that salty and sweet and cold just kind of makes the best combination and you know, makes me happy.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. I love it. And Michelle, quick intro on. On your side.

Speaker D: Sure. So I'm general partner of the Synergist fund and a five year resident of the District of Columbia. Really setting our roots down here. I have a six and a half year old. I tell you. We moved here April of 2020, beginning of the pandemic. We thought it was the middle. Drove from New York, saw three cars and the district and the families here have welcomed us so much. Um, that call it. Two years ago we decided to really stay here, um, and here both on a professional basis. The Synergist Fund is registered in the District of Columbia. And uh, my kid goes to school here. Um, even on a philanthropy aspect, I do a lot of work, um, with the DC Tech and Venture Coalition. Really making DC a destination for innovation.

Speaker A: Well, we're glad to have you here. Uh, excited to learn a little bit more about the innovation because stemming out of the Synergist Fund. Excellent Ed. Quick, uh, uh, intro. And your pairing.

Speaker C: Indeed. Well, after 25 years living in Northern Virginia, about three years ago, moved to D.C. to the West End. And I will say my perfect or my pair me up is living in the West End and on the weekends just walking through the neighborhoods and discovering and enjoying all these amazing little restaurants, cool vibes, you know, Bar Angie to balos to so many and just discovering the neighborhood. It's incred.

Speaker A: That's cool.

Speaker B: That's awesome.

Speaker A: Yeah, very walkable. That's awesome to hear.

Speaker C: And a lot of shade too. With heat like this, we have a lot of.

Speaker A: Yeah, I bet. A little different than Northern Virginia. It feels like just a lot of little mini metropolises. Ah, spread. Spread throughout. But you've got everything really consolidated and decent.

Speaker C: Yeah. I lived in a DMV, um, area. I'm dating myself since 80, 87. I went to graduate school at American University. So I've lived in areas of Maryland, Virginia, D.C. um, and I'm still discovering areas of D.C. and there are areas that, that weren't around like the wharf and other things that we have. But as way of, um, brief introduction, I was in the U.S. department of Energy for 30 years. I moved. I grew up in New Orleans, Louisiana. Moved up here. That was my goal and aspiration. The center of everything. Having been a poli Sci undergrad and international relations graduate. And um, so I'm now I'm president and CEO of Curio. I do want to, um, clarify that the founders. Two brothers from New York. They're awesome. They're brothers from a different mother. No, we're not identical twins though. Or trip. Um, but I love them none this nonetheless. And they're the visionary visionaries and founders of the company. And I, I just was blessed to be able to come in at the right time, having met them at the White House when I was working there at the tail end of my. My career in the Department of Energy. So.

Speaker A: Nice. Yeah. Excited to learn a little bit more about the work you all are doing. And we'll get into that here in just a minute. But yeah, we'll put a bow on the, uh, Pair Me up segment. I love the uh, diversity here from the dentist to, you know, to the food to sightseeing and enjoying the local community. Um, let's shift into the heart of today's episode. So as I mentioned before, we're going to be talking about the kind of the power of place, right, you know, really highlighting some of the innovation that's stemming from the, the district and how the DMV is quietly become a launch pad for, you know, deep tech startups that are solving some of the, the world's biggest, you know, challenges. So Michelle, you've been, you know, um, a very vocal champion for this region through your work at Synergy and you've made a very intentional bet on the DMV region. Talk to me about why, you know, this geography is so important to the thesis at Synergist.

Speaker D: It's interesting because we couldn't have had this podcast with a better pairing, uh, with Ed. Uh, you know, in the last two years I've been using the word serendipitous quite a bit and I met Ed at um, gosh, what is that club? At the Cosmos Club.

Speaker C: The Cosmos Club.

Speaker D: Through the invitation of his best friend in life, right, that I, that we had in common. And at that drinks, um, his uh, friend said, you know, there's this company I really like. And it was Ed's company, it was Curio. And I tell you, at that time the Philippines was just finalizing the terms of its 1, 2, 3 agreement or agreeing to the terms of the 123 agreement with the US and therefore, you know, there was personal interest for me to look at a company in nuclear and you know, Ed and I have been rocking it I think. You know, uh, my fellow friends in the investing space joined me for the seed round of Curio. Um, and that's also how I got to know my fellow GPS rabbi and Yehuda Moskovitz, who, though not scientists, probably know much more or as much, founded Curio. Um, so emulating upon the success of this transformative company that Ed has been spearheading leading on a day to day basis, we have, we launched the fund, the Synergist Fund, to follow this approach of investing in impactful companies that are solving persistent challenges. Right? So we're talking about nuclear today, but you know, it's not just energy, right? We have food and health, uh, industries, um, part of our life. We always talk about the pyramid. You know, these are the basic and foundational needs for people to be satisfied and, uh, to be happy. Um, so that's what the fund is investing in. But, uh, hands down, um, our nuclear company Curio, with its innovative stack in recycling fuel, with its patented designs for small modular reactors, there really isn't anything like this company. It was a very easy and quick decision for my husband and I to invest in this company and from that time on really got to know, uh, the founders of the company. Ed's, um, team has grown significantly since then, um, and I congratulate him on everything that they're doing there. But it is a large part of our portfolio.

Speaker A: I love it. Yeah, Ed, uh, you're going to get your moment to shine here, uh, in just a minute, but I want to keep kind of pulling a little bit more on the thread over at Synergist, so just doing some additional research and you know, we talked to a lot of investment firms that, you know, have their own style and strategy to invest in. What I, what I loved about you all was you kind of break things into these different baskets. And I, uh, picked up on innovation, you know, scaling and commercialization and what kind of goes into each basket. And, you know, why does that structure matter to the startups that you're backing?

Speaker D: Sure. I'll address the latter first. And not just because of the startups, but also because we are responsible for external monies for our LPs. Right. So on a, on a, uh, structural, structural. Structural approach to this fund, what are the issues that challenge investors or what are the pain points that investors have into getting into venture? Liquidity is one, fees is one. Right. So typically in venture, the funds are divided into incubating. Call it, you know, early stage funds, seeds, uh, seed funds, early and then growth stage and then late stage. Right. Late stage is where your target is to deliver returns. Just call it 3x minimum over a 3 year period. Right. So this is the liquidity that I think in a risk managed approach, investors would prefer. Right. This is where the juiciest bits are actually quite risk managed. It's already commercializing. It's, it's coming, uh, to an ipo, et cetera. Right. Um, so we're delivering this kind of three baskets because we want to ensure that where we need the capital, which is the incubating, will get the support of a broader investor base. Right. Because then they're going to see, oh, you know what, I invested in this early stage fund and I never got my money back. Okay, wait, maybe I did get my money back, but I got it 12 years after. Right. So on day one, you know we allow for discretion, uh, we allow for the, for the investment across the three stages. Um, but the point is to ensure that these deep tech companies get support throughout the life of their, throughout their journey as a company to a successful outcome. Right. Um, so it is interesting and after our investors meet a minimum ah, threshold they can actually dial up to these different uh, areas to these different categories. Right. So that cadence of uh, allowing and allowing for distributions, you know, in our minds in six to seven years we would have at least return your initial investment. Right. On a time basis that's still a lot lower than what folks are, are experiencing investing in these uh, clean technologies and these um, uh, call it capital intensive companies. And because were able to multiply their investments given these separate sections and also. Right. We're hopeful that we're able to capture more and more of their investments. So this is in fact an evergreen fund. We don't build in a ah, withdrawal period for the investors. What is built in in terms of liquidity is that we are investing in late stage. So know when we commit to a company, we commit for their success. We're about durable companies. Uh, uh, I'll use Curio as an example. It could exit via an IPO. It could have IPO'd already and I'm sure Ed, uh, can talk about that better than I can. But you know, it has remained private because it still has a lot. You don't want to be under the purview of public shareholders. Right. At this point when you're really uh, growing your technology, growing your base. Um, but it needs a lot of funding. This company has been very fortunate and with the hard work and the knowledge and expertise in the team, they continue to win awards. So this is what we want to bring into other energy companies. We have a waste to electricity company that's not going to be emitting carbon. And uh, not only are investors getting their liquidity, they're also able to make impactful investments. Right. So why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you invest in the DMV where you've got um, the policymakers next door. Why wouldn't you come here? When on a commercializing, let's assume you're able to commercialize in these technologies in the US There will be use cases outside of the US and guess what we have here, we have all of the embassies here. Um, we spend a lot of time in the Synergist fund meeting with the embassies, whether it's their economic or science counselors, um, to really talk about solutions, to really talk about collaborating, to talk about mobilizing quantum of capital to these companies that again solve persistent um, not just US challenges, global challenges, supply chain. I think it's a collaborative effort. It's not just a US supply chain. I think we help our friends. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah. I appreciate the creative approach because this isn't just SaaS based flash in the pan technology startups. We're talking about deep tech that are very dependent on a lot of regulations and policies and those take time. And so having a creative outlet to uh, the capital is essential for some of these longer term uh, solutions. We talk about it a lot on the podcast because a lot of it's tied to national security initiatives and um, these are going through a lot of red tape, uh, a lot of bureaucracy that you know, you need investors that are you going to have some patience and understand that the time to see those through um, for some very large global impacts like you're describing is key.

Speaker D: I did want to say Tim, that being in D.C. is very critical. Right. Because we're not just going to have US monies. We need more than what is available from private investors in our area. Right. International investors know that the US is still the center for innovation and I think the access to non dilutive capital, whether it's you know an agricultural technology and by the way agricultural technology hasn't had its support. It's the necessary support. But this is what we can uh, with the work of my, my, my partners, um, and, and their, their um, their access to intelligence around what U.S. priorities are. You know we're able to align ourselves with what the American people need solving.

Speaker A: Yeah, let's, let's talk about uh, one of these investments, uh, let's, let's jump in uh, to curio Ed. So you know your resume reads like a playbook out of U.S. nuclear policy. Right. The DOE, White House, global partnerships. What inspired you to kind of leave public service and you know, jump on the curiosity wagon?

Speaker C: The vision of the two uh, founders when they decided they were going to go at the US nuclear market because it was so um, undervalued and it was so significantly held back and they rightfully, in my humble opinion, saw a way to crack open and get into the market in a very, very uncrowded um, lane of the nuclear sector. What I mean by that is right now um, nuclear energy is the hottest stock in the country right now. Um, and for many different reasons but um, Virtually all the, the nuclear companies and startups like the Bill Gates and the Sam Altman's Terra Power Oklahoma, they're all trying to get into the market through nuclear reactors. So let me give you a little um, um context. The the US nuclear sector is still the largest in the world. We have M94 nuclear reactors, is about A400, I don't know, 25 reactors around the world. We that means we have the largest amount of so called nuclear waste. That's a term developed by the US government not because technically it's waste, but that therein lies our um, opportunity all the way back to Carter. Carter was convinced by policymakers to put a moratorium and ban nuclear uh, recycling and reprocessing in this country and not to use it more than once like at Calvert Cliffs with the fuel sitting there in the pads. And not because there's not a tremendous amount of value but because of international security implications to the way reprocessing and recycling was being done back in the 70s which ironically the, the nuclear sector and the waste uh, recycling sector has, has developed so little, it has been so stagnant. It's virtually the same technology that Carter decided to shut it down. In fact it's so arcane. This is technology around the world for instance, Japan, Russia, China, all the ones that reprocess. This is technology that really was born out of the Manhattan project, World War II, the Race to build the bomb, a uranium plutonium bomb using this process. So um, that's why that all this used nuclear uh, waste was dubbed waste. Just because the federal government said okay US industry, you're no longer allowed to recycle it. Well let me give you a sense of how much value is in there. When nuclear fuel is running reactor like Calvert Cliffs in Maryland, it's run for about five years, then they pull it out. Did you know you've only used about 4% of that energy value? You have enough energy value left in this total 92,000 metric tons that's sitting around at 80 something sites around the country next to reactors to meet all of the US electricity needs. Even evidence everything for the next 150 years. This is according to do we scientists and that's not including a plethora of other very very valuable isotopes. Medical, industrial, space based and precious metals that are not even radioisotopes that have been produced during that five year. The magic of fission. The most expensive metal in the world. Do you know what that is by chance?

Speaker A: Hmm.

Speaker C: M Rhodium. The most that you look it up the most expensive metal in the world. That's why you see catalytic converters being stolen. Palladium also one of the most expensive. Our full commercial recycling facility. Waste recycling commit um facility which is actually more accurately described as slightly used nuclear fuel. We will be able to provide the entire world's 10% of the entire world's rhodium just by this. We're going to have like 10 different isotope products. We'll also be able to provide one third of the US annual uranium based fuel and enough the fuel also with plutonium 40 different reactors. So the point about the value is that it is not waste anywhere shape or form. It's just it's, it's a function of US government's policy that sidelined it. So it's like buying, it's like buying a Cadillac Escalade and then filling it up once and then throwing it away. Only the US could rationalize sidelining essentially a trillion dollar resource in this country. Well now the years government um policies have realized they cannot, they can't deal with existential threats uh from both parties. Climate for Democrats, um, geostrategic energy security jobs for um Republicans and some both we, they can't do without nuclear. And what's the biggest our view thing that's held held back nuclear from growing is the waste problem. There's still 12 states in the United States literally on the books in their state laws that um, that forbid nuclear recycling and forbid nuclear in their states at all primarily because of the waste problem. So now we're dealing, we're engaging with states, we're engaged, we're partnered with the US government. We came up with a new, a brand new recycling technology that removed the historic problems uh of the way it's been reprocessed in the past. We removed that security trojan horse. We stopped using um, nitric acid that ironically when you dissolve the fuel rods you create more waste than you started. And so now we have a super pyro dry process and electrolysis process where when we recycle we're only going to have about 3 to 4% of the original waste left. So be a trash collector, we're going to be a mining operation, we're going to be a waste reducer and then we're going to have two reactors we already have under development. One building a prototype now a micro reactor submicro and a small modular and we're going to fuel it from our waste. So if we pull this off and trust me this is you know this takes a lot of uh, Huzbah, um, if we pull it off, will be the next SpaceX for nuclear.

Speaker A: Well, um, yeah, I think that term nuclear waste, right, it just, you know, you hear, and everybody just thinks, oh, we don't want that waste in our state. You know, and thinking through how you creatively recycle this, um, you said something there at the end that I think is fascinating too, about designing your own reactors as kind of like a full stack approach for, for solving these challenges ahead. Was that a pretty big leap, uh, you know, for you all and making that decision to also design your own reactors? In addition, this process to, you know, that avoids the toxic chemicals and reduces that nuclear waste?

Speaker C: Well, I think it's a big leap from the standpoint that no other company in the US is attempting to do that. We're the first that's attempting to provide the full breadth of reactors, fuels use, um, nuclear fuel management and waste disposition and isotope production. There's no other company in the US and the only company worldwide that's really doing it with arcane compromise tech and business plan is Russia. And we'll outcompete Russia once we get a firm, ah, foothold in the US in my humble opinion. But I actually, it makes sense. It actually makes less sense how we've evolved where we have companies. But if you look at the risk environment and the policies that have interfered, um, you can kind of understand it. But the fact is it makes much more sense for a company if you can do it to provide a customer. Like a CEO of uh, let's say Calvert Cliffs. They're saying, let's say the company, um, let's say Constellation, largest utility, um, in the country for that, has nuclear, but they own wind, solar, natural gas, etc. And they're thinking, all right, I have a couple of nuclear power plants, should I, should I, um, purchase a few more? Well, they look at the landscape of service providers and they say, they go, oh, Bill Gates, he's got his advanced small modular reactor, let me go see him see them. And then they say, okay, we want the reactor. But I hear the fuel market is pretty challenging and Russia dominates it. Um, can you provide us the fuel? I said, uh, no, we're just in the reactor design and build business. You'll have to, um, find another supplier for the fuel. All right, what about the waste? I have waste sitting on the pad on my reactor here. I'm going to get bludgeoned because I have the gall to um, say I'm going to build more reactors without even dealing with the waste. So called waste sitting in my pad. Oh, that's not my problem. You're going to have, uh, you're going to have to say the federal government is going to pick that up. Well, that'll shoot your credibility in half immediately. Right? So we're flipping the script and we're trying to provide what the customers are going to need and also to do in a way where it's risk manageable. It's not risk manageable if you say, hey, buy my reactor, but let's just play like the nuclear waste problem doesn't exist. So I say one other thing. Uh, if you, if you look at it from standpoint of reactors versus fuels, and that was a very astute point you made about, you know, what made us decide to get into, you know, like the recycling and then fuel for a reactor. It's like Microsoft and IBM. Um, first of all, you got to be able to, you have to have enough confidence in your due diligence that you see something others don't see. You know, Warren Buffett says, you know, I've heard him a couple of times say, first of all, you do your research and if you're lucky, you see a golden goose. And if you're really lucky, everybody else thinks that the dog, right, everybody thought it was a golden goose. It wouldn't be a market, we would, we wouldn't be here if, if the slightly used nuclear fuel wasn't and isn't seen as waste. But, um, it is anything but waste. But you have to have confidence in your, in your research. And it takes a lot of husband to be in an innovation business because almost by definition you're going to do something that no one else has done. And so everybody else, your peers are going to say, uh, Tim, and this guy, he's going to fall in this face because we haven't pulled it off. Well, Space X, I mean he was roundly Elon Musk trashed by the greats like um, like Neil Armstrong for saying, what does this little company, um, you know is going to do harm to the US by misleading Americans that think that they're going to be able to um, um, do something that NASA and the big giants couldn't do. So back to IBM and Microsoft. Microsoft comes in after basically working out of a garage and then they see the future. It's not hardware, it's software. All right? And so they go to IBM, the big great. They have so many minds and they couldn't see it if it hit them in the head with a sledgehammer that they Were making a terminal decision on the business plan by not realizing that the future software, software drives hardware. It's not desktops. The future is the software. Same thing I would argue for nuclear. The hardware is the reactor, the reactors are being developed, and then they're shoehorning in the fuel. That's suboptimal. The fuel is the software. In our business, the fuel. Fuel drives the reactor design, not vice versa. So the future is fuels. And then we have a reactor that's designed around our fuel and not just trying to shoehorn it and then telling the customers, good luck in getting the fuel. Bill Gates is reactor project in Wyoming. He had to push it back, um, by two years. Why? Because he was using fuel that only Putin produces. Hey, hey, look, we're going to be a company. We're going to have the whole thing in house. That's why we're either going to go big or go home. We're going to be the next Space X or not. Because when we get into the market, market as a stocking horse, we're going to be able to provide the whole enchilada to you as a CEO, reduce your risk. Got you covered.

Speaker D: Hmm.

Speaker A: I love the passion.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, I love it, too. I'm curious if the. So as you're talking, at the very beginning, you talked about the US Policy. Policy. Do you think had, had it not been for that policy, that there would have been a lot more innovation already have happened with regard to the waste and how to do that. Like the, the fact that that policy just totally stagnated the market for this long. Is that, is that the, like the root cause of what created this opportunity?

Speaker C: Yes, in large part. Because, remember, um, Carter, in that executive action, killed the nuclear recycling industry. We had companies that had billions in facilities and suddenly stranded assets. They lost their shorts.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, wow.

Speaker C: And so there are companies that still to this day, I'll never do that again. So it had a devastating impact. And the bizarre part is then they set the US on this crazy path of coming up with, like, uh, Yucca Mountain, where we got to figure out how to bury this material. That's where you've only used 4%. But the weird part is when it comes out of a reactor after five years, it does come out at, uh, arguably its highest level of radio toxicity. That doesn't mean it is not 90% chock full of value. The trick is, how do you mine that when you can't touch that? You're doing it in this gigantic hot cell remotely. It's tricky. To do. I'm confident that if we, if Carter had not um put a moratorium on it and we have been first of all we wouldn't have the Yucca Mountain problem. We still have. We will have a residual amount of waste left but for our process we will only have about 4% or 3% of uh, the high level radioactive material, the type that is required to be deeply geologically buried. So suddenly 3 to 4% we can dispose of that 15,000ft in the ground and 4 to 5 um boreholes, standard 12 inch industry that would do. We won't need a trillion plus um series of um, Yucca Mountains and trying to jam it into a state where in. The other kicker I didn't tell you about is when we recycle and we, we're pulling out a good 10 different isotopes, some of which are very long lived isotopes that create the problem for the uh repository and also we're going to separate out the low level waste that's disposed every day. So then we're only going to have about 4% and guess what, that 4% we will only have to show that it will be deeply geologically sequestered for 300 years. From in the human contact it sounds like a lot our nation's nuclear regulatory submission today. If you were going to build and if you, and if they allowed you to build a permanent repository that's not recycled because you haven't pulled out all of those long lived isotopes for other purposes you literally have to show that is um, securely disposed of for 10,000 years. That is like a non starter incredibility. That's part of the reason why when you go to states um, you lose credibility instantly when you say please this is a great deal. We'll give you some tax incentives, federal help but, but it's going to be unsafe. Unsafe for anybody humans to be around for 10,000 years. There's so many reasons why we should be doing what we um, are attempted to do now. And hats off to the President for now explicitly saying executive orders we're going to do full resource utilization. No one throwing this away. We're going to recycle it and we're going to bring in the um, the companies to come in and come up with innovative ways to do it. Now it is a bipartisan to some degree previous administration didn't go nearly as far as this president but they were inching closer and closer. That's how we secured eight different government contracts with the Department of Energy on our recycling tech.

Speaker D: And I think one thing that million, that that's $19 million in funding. I mean Kiryu had me at spent nuclear fuel.

Speaker A: Yeah, right, right.

Speaker B: I mean and go ahead. No, I was just gonna say I mean because I went to. Not that long ago I was at a green IO conference and one of uh, we were talking a lot about AI and the energy consumption, the energy needs for AI and what is happening in tech is big tech is now aligning with like fossil fuel companies to produce dirty energy. Like really not great for the environment. But we, but we need it, need uh, for AI so having a good alternative nuclear, um, certainly cleaner. Um, and if you can handle the waste and all the rest of it seems like, like the timing is perfect as well in terms of, with every, all of the focus on the energy needs that you know not just from a security perspective but also to, to grow this market, this capabilities that we're building with AI. I think it's it. There's probably a great timing aspect as well.

Speaker A: There's 200 data centers in Loudoun county right now and they're building another 150 to 200 as we say.

Speaker C: You know um, you made a really good point Mike that um. Look when you have um, existential drivers like um, the AI race now and the big techs coming in one way or another they're going to build one way or another.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Hopefully they bill in a way where it doesn't create this Faustian bargain which we curio is removing. We're removing that Machiavellian choice. Well you know I've got it. If I do this even we open up the opportunity to have baseload clean rather than saying I don't have any choice. Intermittent's not going to do it. My data centers, if it goes down for one second I've got major problems. Nuclear can do it, but we have to have it in growth. We have frankly been in a death spiral for decades. We haven't uh, until just the two in Georgia. We hadn't built from scratch a new reactor since the 80s so we've just been trying to squeeze more like a turnip from our current fleet. We have to structurally fix this once and for all. Stop calling it waste, recycle it. Um, remove that then a credible sort of poison pill we've been trying to convince states to take. Now we have a lot of states that are extremely interested in curio. They love the idea of getting those data centers. Love um, the idea of us. We have 30, we'll have 3400 full time jobs 60 year facility, mostly trade space. So you have local Access, high school, two year associates working at an advanced nuclear facility at $125,000. Uh, median jobs. These are generational jobs. Data centers are great but they're employing dozens of people at corridor. But there's one state, I won't say which one is down south. They literally told me I was speaking to the state legislature and they really want us to come in and, but they're upset because they have like 34 different, different mega um, data center projects proposed and they have one nuclear utility and they have a bunch of smaller ones and they need. These data centers are only going to go in there if they can get a subscription agreement a uh, guarantee for the power for their Data centers. Just one of the 34 data centers is saying I need to the state I need a guarantee of 2 gigawatts. And the um, utility. What does the utility say? I can't give you more than 300 megawatts. That's just for one. So the state is like upset that they're about to lose out on the Metas and the Microsoft and then the Elon Musk data centers. This is big. And also geostrategically it's seen as now basically the next arms race. This is AI is almost seen as perhaps even more of a threat. And it's hard for me to say that because I lived in the Cold War then the Cold War with nukes. This is a big time deal. They're going to get the power from whatever, wherever. But let's once and for all stopping Dilbert. We know how to do this. We know how to get an optimized nuclear fuel cycle and we have an opportunity to bring in the latest and greatest. We have a lot of new tech companies. I'll leave it with this on um, bring it back to home which is D.C. um, and I really am impressed by frankly Mayor Bowser and her team including her deputy mayor um, um. See Nina, um, Albert. Um, they really I didn't realize how focused like it was laser beam they are and bringing business to the area. Um, and in a very very I think um, pots compelling way. And so when the Rabbi, Rabbi and his brother, they're the founders of this company think about how amazing life is. I mean I'm at the White House and I meet this guy, he's half my age and he's come, comes from a major family, a billion dollar family in commercial real estate et cetera and he's decided third generation to get into innovative stack companies like um, my cure nuclear and his brother and, and I meet him and I couldn't believe he, you know, it took him what, two years to come up with due diligence plan that took me 30 years to see that the way to get into nuclear is to the so called back end and the waste, um, profit, which is anything but waste. Golden goes. So he asked me, um, once he um, he made the offer and I said okay, I'll leave government. Didn't have to. Um, I was at the top of my game frankly. Non mandatory retirement. And he asked me, um, all right Ed. And I told Mayor Bowser this. He said um, all right Ed, um, where do you want to put your headquarters? New York City? Miami? And I said m. Miami's not bad. You see, I said well to be honest with you, it's no contest. Um, nuclear is so heavily um, dominated by federal policies, um, national policies, um, and so many other factors. Regulatory. All of that is here in D.C. lawmaking, everything. Um, among other things. I said it's a no brainer, we have to do it in D.C. and also um, it's the perfect vantage point. Um, but it really is the place to be for so many reasons. You know we can just walk, almost walk over to Congress and see any member we want. We're two blacks in the White House. We're walking distance to Department of Energy and all the other executive. We have every interest group under the sun and nuclear and related pro and anti here. There's no other place on the planet, much less in the US like dc.

Speaker A: Yeah, I knew I should have slotted two hours for this. I've got so many more questions. Um, but just to make the most of our time, I want to kick it back over to you Michelle and yeah, spend a little bit more time just pulling a little bit on this thread of the dmv. How do you and Synergist kind of see this DMV hub evolving as a central point for deep tech innovation over the next few years here?

Speaker D: Sure. Um, with our investors following us and in fact um, participating already in the third round of uh, Curio. You know, we know that the companies that we're looking at in due diligencing and planning to invest in are here in the dmv and more specifically working with the deputy mayor's office and the mayor, um, you know, the mayor at her preview of her budget, um, is doubling down on innovation and I think that's the right way to do it. We're not as rich as our neighbors in Maryland. And as yourselves in Virginia. But we can start somewhere. Right? So the district is actually working on, you know, they have two specific ways, uh, for, for companies to get support. They have the Vitality Fund and the growth funds. Um, we talk to them day in and day out. Uh, because it's not. Curio just beautifully started its, um, existence in the district. Right. So our other portfolio companies, we are, uh, encouraging, uh, them to also locate, if the headquarters cannot be located here, to have a representative or two in the district. I mean, we have talent in the district. We know that. Right. My fellow mothers are MIT grads at the doe, um, at other, uh, agencies and government. Um, and, you know, their skill sets could be with, I guess, parlayed into private jobs soon as they, they ramp off their government jobs. Right. So we have talent in the district, which is why we want to continue here. And then policy really is critical to all of the, uh, deep impact. I mean, Ed has it, and he's rightfully CEO of Curio, given his, uh, deep knowledge on the policy playbook. And as that continues to evolve. Right. Um, but I think Curio being located here will continue to be a hook for our synergist fund investors. Right. Uh, we have international investors that, you know, from the Philippines, from Central America. And the story there is, you know, here in the US we're addressing baseload need. We actually have electricity. We don't even think about how much we pay for electricity. I'm Filipino American. In the Philippines, people pay 50 to 60% of their median income for energy for electricity. So these countries, right. Imagine a Curio closed loop solution. Called it the late 2000 and 30s, 2000s. You know, it can be built there ultimately, because the steel requirements are not a lot. It doesn't need the cement, uh, truckloads of cement. Um, you know, emerging markets have a lot to benefit or have a lot to gain by embracing nuclear. And I think here in the US the headwinds of perception, I think, are addressed because we're all data and AI users. Right? But in the Philippines, it's lights, right? It's air conditioning. So these are very basic, um, in Central America, uh, one of the countries there, ah, late last year, um, because their other renewable power sources did not work, they actually had to turn on their coal. They had to fire up their coal plants. And I remember, and this is a Curio investor, he sent me a photo showing how clear the skies were, and then I guess a week later, how gray the skies were. So people actually felt that, um, that change and hopefully they'll, they'll get a 1, 2, 3 agreement in place. Hopefully, um, there will be collaboration as an ally of the U.S. around. Um, you know, what the best approach is to building a nuclear energy uh, business, um, to really support uh, people. So it's an easy sell honestly, nuclear these days. You know, when I first met Ed I did worry about the headwinds of perception, the safety. But we just need to listen to what science has, has um, to say.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker D: Um, Fukushima will always come up. You know, Three Mile island will come up. But again there's written um, uh, there is data and information that really helps us address these misperceptions, if I can call it that. Um, and people will require even, even when we're done with nuclear, when we've, when we have this, we will, even if we've solved the problem for, for AI in terms of energy needs and demand, call it 20, 30 years from now, I bet you we're going to find other uses for energy and we'll need even more uh, energy technologies for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah, I want to put a bow on it with uh, one final, you know, kind of uh, shout out from you Ed, you know, thinking about the future of Curio. Let's, let's talk about what success looks like for you all over the next five to 10 years.

Speaker C: So success is within the next five to 10 years having a national solution to the nuclear waste by having one or more full size commercial operating nuclear recycling facilities that's built in a way that is environmentally very, very conscious and friendly by using a dry process and not generating more waste with nitric acid, but getting down to 3,4% by turning it into a tech hoarder. Multi commodity extraction, bringing in valuable isotopes that we have supply chain problems for fighting cancer, for detecting leaks in the reactor pressure vessels, for the navy to industrial everything. So many of them are from overseas. So um, having one or more, maybe east coast, west coast, uh, the world's state of the art, highest throughput, most compact size of a modern football field, facilities operating, all right, curio facilities. And also within five to 10 years we have small um, modular reactors. We call our reactors. Even though we're going to provide fuel for all types of reactors and recycle all type of reactors use fuel. Um, but we have our reactor appropriately called homogeneous plutonium eliminating reactor. And so see our engineers still, they're very creative, they can come up with all kinds of ideas and so they came up with a great meaningful um, um, name for ours. Um, but the small modular Reactor we have, we're using plutonium, but with a security blanket wrapped around. Plutonium is almost never used, rarely used in the commercial sector because of security concerns. Um, we know that we came up with our own, uh, trademark and patented fuel that allows us to use plutonium, which is a superior fuel to uranium, which is the type of fuel used around the world. It's higher density and smaller, lower weight ratio. What does that mean? Translation? Our small modular reactor, when we build it, it's going to be about a third the size of the uranium based, even advanced reactors. A third. Like Michelle said, saving on cement, cost, everything, footprint. And then so we're going to be, um, serially producing our SMRs and we're going to be serially producing a micro reactor that's also powered by that we call it true fuel, transuranic fuel. So, um, that's the five to 10 years. That's where we are partnered right now with the US government and we're scaling up as we speak in an accelerated way to get to that full commercial facility. Concurrent to us scaling up and validating the scale up of our tech, we're talking to multiple states on where we're going to site this one or more, um, facilities that will become a tech hub. Whatever state has our facility, literally with a full commercial facility, will become the largest clean fuel producer on the planet.

Speaker D: Wow.

Speaker A: Well, we'll, we'll be standing on the sidelines, Mike and I just uh, you know, eating popcorn and cheering you guys.

Speaker C: You can say, oh my Lord, eight years ago you were on a podcast and now.

Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. We'll be promoting the hell out of this. That's what we'll be doing. We'll be getting more eyes and ears behind the mission. That's the least that we can do.

Speaker C: You're one of the, um.

Speaker A: Well, well, thank you guys. I applaud you for, for the, the mission focused work that you're doing. Uh, in the essence of time, we're going to put a bow on the main conversation, transition to our final segment. Little fun, rapid fire, Q A. Uh, we call it the five second scramble. Uh, Mike, why don't you lead us off with Ed and then I will close with Michelle and we'll wrap from there.

Speaker B: Sounds good. All right, uh, so try to keep the answer short. Um, here we go. Uh, if curio were an animal, what animal would it be?

Speaker C: That's a good question. I think it would be an eagle.

Speaker A: I love that.

Speaker B: Good. Uh, what's your favorite part of the culture there? Korea

Speaker C: Inspiration.

Speaker D: Cool.

Speaker B: What roles are you hoping to fill in the next 6 to 12 months?

Speaker C: What roles?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Answer to our nation's biggest problems facing us by solving the nuclear waste problem and by bringing in the next generation of, uh, clean tech.

Speaker B: Uh, what's one thing about nuclear power that you think would surprise people?

Speaker C: That the so called nuclear waste sitting around our country is one of the most valuable national reserves that we have.

Speaker B: I had a feeling you'd say that. But I still want to ask a question.

Speaker C: I could not say that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: I could not.

Speaker B: Figured, uh, I'd want you to hit it again. Uh, what was your dream job as a kid?

Speaker C: Oh, um, I really enjoy working at the bowling alley. Um, and I was a gutter boy. And, um, you know, my job was one to clean up the arcade area, which was not so much fun, but I got to play with my buddies who were playing games. And then every time a ball got stuck in a gutter or under the pins, I was the one that went there and shimmied into the blades and everything else.

Speaker A: It went from arcade ways to nuclear waste. I see the zigzag you did.

Speaker B: Um, uh, uh, what charity or cause is near and dear to you?

Speaker C: So many fighting, uh, cancer. It's the scourge of our generation. And, um, so many people are dying that don't need to die. If we just, uh, bring the full bear, um, uh, bring to bear all of our innovative ideas. Um, there are radioisotopes out there that are wonder cure, um, you know, um, products, um, that are just not available. Actinium 225, Bill Gaseous. Got ahold of a small supply, um, shown to reverse with, um, Bismuth213, the daughter product. Um, stage four brain tumors and pancreatic cancer.

Speaker B: Oh, wow. All right, last one. Uh, what was your first car?

Speaker C: It was my mother's car, but it drove it all the time. So I play like I told everybody. A Chevy Nova.

Speaker A: Oh, nice.

Speaker B: What year?

Speaker C: 70. 76.

Speaker B: Nice. That's a good year. Love it, love it.

Speaker A: Good stuff. All right, Michelle, you ready?

Speaker D: Yeah, I am.

Speaker A: All right, what's, uh, one word that you'd use to describe the DMV kind of startup scene?

Speaker D: Welcoming.

Speaker A: Nice. What's a quality that you look for in every founder that you all look to? Back grit. What's a common mistake that you see a lot of early stage companies kind of making too often quit? Uh, aside from your, your phone, what's, what's one thing that you always kind of maybe keep in your bag?

Speaker D: My reading glasses,

Speaker A: Unfortunately. Yeah, I think I can mirror that answer. Uh, um, who's an entrepreneur that, you know, if you could have dinner with, past or present, who would that be?

Speaker D: Bill Gates.

Speaker A: And then what's one nonprofit, uh, or cause that you're especially passionate about?

Speaker D: Gotta be D.C. district Bridges. Uh, we support, uh, six of the main streets of the district, Logan Circle, U Street, uh, Mount Pleasant, and others. Um, you know, small businesses are the lifeblood of our communities.

Speaker A: Nice. And then last question. What is a travel destination? That's still on your bucket list?

Speaker D: Ah. Ah, still on my bucket list. Um, I'm forgetting the name at this point, but the sister island of Cempedak island, part, ah, of the Riwi Islands in Indonesia. My husband and I did our honeymoon at Cempeduk island, but there is a family oriented island and I'm forgetting the name of it, but yeah, very cool.

Speaker A: I lived, uh, for two years in Indonesia. I lived in Bali for two years.

Speaker D: Oh, wow.

Speaker A: Okay, so we did a lot of exploring on some of these little islands that you never know existed.

Speaker D: And check that out.

Speaker A: Oh, gosh, the food. Um, awesome. That, that is a wrap on our episode of the Pear program. Thank you both for, for showing up and sharing your, you know, your, your mission and vision, uh, behind, you know, how we're solving these big world problems. And thanks for, you know, making the dmv, uh, a launchpad for, you know, deep tech innovation. Thanks, uh, for joining us on the podcast.

Speaker C: Thank you. And thank you for shedding light on what we're doing. We appreciate it.

Speaker B: Awesome.

Speaker D: Thank you.