F*ck the brand guidelines: Do this instead (w/ Lewis Kemp) | S3 EP1

Speaker A: Brand guidelines are great. If you actually have a brand. Before you have a brand you need to have a business. And to have a business you kind of need to be making sales.

Speaker B: Lewis Camp, welcome to the Paid Media Lab. It's great to have you on.

Speaker A: I run out all the time that I don't personally like. They work and that's our job to make you money. So that's what we do. Your job is to try and press on a pain point, figure out which pain points are the most painful for them and then get them to the site so you can actually track it.

Speaker B: Are there any ads done that really push the boundaries?

Speaker A: A nun having an or ASM looped up bananas and priests doing weird stuff and. And then we did one with Alex Hormozi in it which got a cease and desist, uh, with him.

Speaker B: Oh, really?

Speaker A: An angel. You know what? It got attention. Nobody gives a whether your brand is purple, has square or curved fonts or anything like that. Do you want our logo to take up 50% of the ad? No one gives a because they're not actively searching for what you're selling. So the brand guidelines are basically what you're telling people that you are. What. Whereas your actual brand is what people are saying about you when you're not in the room. You're not that important or memorable, unfortunately.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome back to the third season of the Pave Media Lab. My name is James. I'm the content lead here at Lunio and this episode is special because it's our first ever in person recording here in our Manchester studio with one of the finest and um, most outspoken marketers in the country, Lewis Kemp. He is the founder of Light Bulb Media, co founder of the University of Creative Idiots and living proof that you don't need a Lambo or endless selfies of yourself in front of a laptop in a rented Dubai apartment to run, um, a highly successful agency. Louis is well known for his LinkedIn posts that cut through the hype and nonsense in the marketing world, often taking aim squarely at the self proclaimed business gurus who spend more time building funnels for their own dodgy online courses than running actual campaigns. I've been a fan of Lewis's work for years now and his Light Bulb Media client case studies are always super impressive. And he's definitely someone that lets the numbers do the talking when it comes to highlighting the impact he and his team deliver. He also released one of the best promo videos I've ever seen for the membership community he co founded with Dan Kelsall the University of Creative Idiots. There is no way that I can do it justice here because it is an artistic masterpiece. But if you are a fan of Queen or Freddie Mercury, I'll give you a quick trigger warning that you may find it sacrilegious. But the link to watch Bohemian Rhapsody performed by Lewis and Dan is in the description below. So, to get back to today's episode, Lewis shares his unfiltered take on, um, why most brand guidelines are a complete waste of time and what you should be doing instead. We talk about how marketers can push back against the brand police without losing their job, why rigid creative sign off processes kill performance, and how to build a culture that prioritizes actual results over aesthetics. If you've ever had a brilliant idea shot down because you didn't use the correct font or the right shade of blue, this one is for you. So let's dive in. Lewis Kemp, welcome to the Paid Media Lab. It's great to have you on.

Speaker A: Thank you, mate. Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: So this is a special episode. It's our first ever in person recording and, um, we're really pushing the boat out on this third season. Uh, so it is an honor to have you here in the studio. I've been following you, uh, since I joined Lunio about three years ago. I'm a fan of your work. I, um, think you're one of the best copywriters I know, especially when it comes to writing LinkedIn posts. And I think you have a real knack for choosing the right word at the right time to make your message land and kind of drive home the point you wanted to make. Uh, so I just wanted to quote one of those to you here to open up the show. Uh, so in one post you were commenting on why people should stop chasing views and impressions as the sole benchmark of how well their content is doing. Uh, and you wrote, quote, attention is a necessary stage of the funnel, but not all attention is created equally. Don't let a gimpfluencer laughing maniacally into a laptop whilst pretending to be on the phone tell you any different end quotes. Gimfluencer, in my opinion, is a brilliant and original word. Do you want to take credit for that?

Speaker A: I mean, I can do. I'm not sure if it was me, but I'm happy to take credit for anything.

Speaker B: It's solid. But for any of our non UK listeners or viewers out there, they might not be able to parse what gimfluencer means. So if you could, could you Sum up the quintessential essence of what a gamefluencer really is.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, ultimately it's someone that wasn't, ah, good looking up. Good looking enough to make it as an uh, influencer on Instagram, wasn't funny enough to make it on TikTok, and wasn't racist enough to make it on Twitter. So they come to LinkedIn and they sell dreams to people through cookie cutter, uh, motivational advice, um, designed to really, you know, pander to the masses of low intelligent people.

Speaker B: And you have, there's many other posts from your feeds commenting on these kind of personal branding gurus. And there was like, there was a real boom of this stuff probably, I don't know, like, yeah, certainly post Covid and even before then it was getting going. But it does seem to be winding down. And what, what do you think is bringing about the demise or is it winding down? Have I got it wrong?

Speaker A: No, I think uh, I did a post about it a couple of weeks ago and said, where have they all gone? Um, it's kind of like they went, they found people that were desperate or naive, uh, sometimes both. They sold them a dream and they've created lots and lots of miniature clones of themselves saying the exact same things about the exact same topics in the exact same way to the exact same people. And then if you actually think about this, if a man's selling fish on a street corner and then you tell 50,000 other people to go sell fish on that street corner, it very quickly becomes the worst place to sell fish. And um, and then when people realize that and all these clones are around now just kind of like sharing a dopamine, um, eventually they realized that the money wasn't coming. And you'll probably see now that they'll move into other things like email or AI or something else that people don't really have the knowledge of. So. But they're going to go for some kind of grift at some point.

Speaker B: The AI grift, man, it's, it's getting out of control. Like it's uh, like there is great potential in AI. But as I think it was another post that you wrote about, like AI is great at just amalgamating all this stuff and just spitting out the bang average, you know, of what exists out there and you're not going to get anything better than that. Um, and it does seem like, yeah, that's another area for those guys to move into. Um, but when we were going back and forth before we booked in this recording, uh, I floated A few topics, copywriting was one of them and there's a lot we could go into there. Uh, I'd be really interested in that because my own background is primarily SEO, uh, and copywriting. But I wanted to go with something different. And to mark this special occasion of having you on as our first in person in studio recording, we're turning up the swearing in the episodes and we're going to stick it in the episode title for this one, which reads, Fuck the brand guidelines. Creative freedom at scale and from following you on LinkedIn, and I'm sure people who already know you already will probably be aware of your stance on creative guidelines. And it's something that I couldn't agree with you more on and it's why I'm looking forward to this discussion today. Uh, but to kick things off, I'm going to play devil's advocate for the people out there that might be quite fond of their brand guidelines. And they think, you know, I put a lot of work into this, they look good, they sound professional. So what is the big problem that you're getting at with brand guidelines? And are they not just harmless?

Speaker A: Uh, brand guidelines are great if you actually have a brand. Um, and unfortunately what a lot of people will do, particularly small businesses, is they will create brand guidelines. And these are things that are usually based on if they've kind of led it, what they like, what they prefer, or if they've been sensible to actually speak to a brand strategist. You know, they might have done a little bit more deep work into the market. But actually, still, regardless of who's done it, they are built before anything's actually been launched and put out into the market. Um, so by all means, you know, you can have guardrails, but ultimately, yeah, they are still important for, you know, potentially when people are doing their due diligence and social media and emails and things like that, where I don't like them being used. So Strictly is in the acquisition side of paid advertising, because nobody gives a fuck whether your brand is purple, has square or curved fonts or anything like that. They are sat in their underpants scrolling Instagram looking for things to educate or entertain them. Um, and that is not going to be for everyone the same thing that you've done. You have to give people, you know, before you have a brand, you need to have a business. And to have a business, you kind of need to be making sales. And you make sales by giving people what they want, not what you want them to want. And that's where a lot of businesses fall down. And it's one of the most common reasons we see for a brand either hitting a plateau or not being able to scale past a certain, A certain threshold of revenue or whatever it may be. Uh, because they are just throttling the acquisition by being, Trying to be, you know, everything to everyone through one channel rather than putting that variety in.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker B: So to that point, um, Again, in another LinkedIn post, we'll link to it down below. In the description, uh, you said, uh, in, I think, directed towards those kind of smaller businesses, you don't have a brand. You have a small business with a set of brand guidelines. Uh, so just to clarify, I know you did touch on it in your first answer there, but when you say brand, like, what do you actually mean? And why do those small businesses not necessarily have a brand already?

Speaker A: Yeah. So the brand guidelines are basically what you're telling people that you are, whereas your actual brand is what people are saying about you when you're not in the room, what they're saying to their friends, how it makes people feel that sentiment around it. And that's often very, very different. Uh, and a lot of people will say, you know, something's not on brand. Well, why are you worried about it being on brand? Well, that people will, you know, they have to care about you first. And before they even care, they have to know the you are, Terry, on, you know, the high street as an ifa, if no one knows who you are, how on earth can they even care about what you are putting out? Um, so I think that's the frustrating thing of people thinking that they are a brand before they've even got customers and become a proper business.

Speaker B: And the thing that you're really good at, as I mentioned in the intro, is, um, getting an emotional reaction out of me and out of a lot of other people who engage with your posts. Like, often it's just funny. Um, and I think that that's something. I don't know. Do you feel that businesses kind of lose sight of the fact that that's what you're after here is like some kind of re. Or.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think ultimately, particularly around, like, paid social, you know, this isn't people that are actively coming searching for your service or products. If I'm looking at recipes and holidays and things like that, you know, I'm not thinking, oh, God, I hope an ad pops up for a HR tool right now, and I hope it's fucking purple, because I love purple. No one's thinking like that. You've Got two seconds to stop someone, scroll, grab their attention, shock or curiosity, get them off, get them to the site and drop a pixel on the head so you can figure out what they're doing. You're trying to do the whole thing at once and sell who you are. You have 50 years of this and do you want our logo to take up 50% of the ad? No one gives a shit because they're not actively searching for what you're selling. Your job is to try and press on a pain point, figure out which pain points are the most painful, uh, for them, and then get them to the site so you can actually track it and figure out all these different ICPs for that. So I think people try and do too much within that first touch point of prospecting, which is basically, do I actually understand my customer? And if you're doing a real kind of brand focus, we've got this years of heritage and this and that. Just tell me how you can serve me. What's in it for me? That's all people care about for that first touch point.

Speaker B: Yeah, man. This is one of the things like, and I think great copywriting and great writing this applies to. It's like that theory of mind of being able to put yourself in the shoes of someone else and understand what they don't know. Like, we all run around and we have the knowledge that we've got in our heads. And the easy tendency is to assume that everyone else knows this and they have the context and background that I do. But I feel like the best marketers out there are the people who are able to really put themselves in the shoes of other people. And like you said, to drill into those pain points, to speak to those pain points in the creative, uh, is super important. Um, but to bring this to kind of real world terms, I wanted to get into some examples. And we're not going to name and shame specific brands. I know you could. There's many names that you could throw out here, but that's not what this podcast is about. We don't want to torch anyone, but we can keep it anonymous. And I'm sure there are quite a few examples out there of ads that you know or, uh, ideas, concepts that you've came up with or people in your team have came up with. And they've kind of really been watered down or ruined by brand guidelines and, um, people getting in with their opinion and their two cents on how this should look or the message it should convey.

Speaker A: Yeah, we've got plenty of examples on it, but there Was a, there was a recent one actually. Someone came on a couple of months ago and everything previously it was in the lifestyle industry and everything previously had been really, really polished, you know, and that's lovely. But for the previous month they were plateau, plateau, plateau, plateau, couldn't get through. So we wanted to throw a few into the mix that were a little bit more raw and unpolished because we know from experience running other accounts that that's what was working really well. Uh, a bit of back and forth, uh, eventually just said, look, hey, let's let the data decide on this. Let us put four or five out of this. Um, and then, yeah, within the first four weeks, CPA caught by 50%, ROAS doubled and then suddenly it's an easy conversation. So for us, we know that variety and volume work. And I'm not saying everything we put in will work, but out of the 10 concepts we put in, there'll be two or three in there that absolutely bang and open up a whole avenues of pockets of buyers and revenue for these brands. So as soon as we get the chance, we know the data will prove that variety and volume works and then it's an easier conversation. On the most part, there are still people that you wouldn't believe argue with data like here's yours, that's never made any money. You've spent 80 grand on here's ours, where we spent a grand and made 80 back. Let's go with this. Okay, well, goodbye. Yeah, because you're not, you're not basing this off logic. Our job's to come in and make you money, not to pat you on the head and um, you know, pander to your ego. And I think that's that personal opinion and that ego getting in the way of things. Whereas we don't do that. We work purely off the data. I run ads all the time that I don't personally like. They work and that's our job, to make you money. So that's what we do.

Speaker B: So sticking with the examples, are there any ads that maybe jump to mind? First of all, when you think something that you've created or something that your team's worked on that really pushed the boundaries and was controversial and would have never made it past, you know, some of these kind of more old school

Speaker A: people, they wouldn't have made it past the normal person. But actually a good friend Eddie, who had Gofunder, he actually let us run it. Myself and Dan were doing some ads and I think one of them was uh, a nun having an orgasm, uh, Talking about procrastination being a sin. And then we did one with Alex Hormozi in it, which got a cease and desist, uh, with him.

Speaker B: Oh, with really?

Speaker A: An angel? Yeah, saying. We're basically just saying, like, stop reading books and learning about it and start actually doing something. Um, and then, yeah, we got a cease and desist for that. So out of like the 10 ads, the ones that Dan made, about eight of them got banned within the first two weeks. One by one. Um, yeah. Looped up bananas and priests doing weird stuff and. Yeah, but you know what, it got attention. So it's um. Yeah, it's tough because, you know, we won't just put things. We've kind of got this technique now, uh, where kind of like ironically, with branding projects as well, if you frame it in the middle, if you just say, here's the thing we want to do, they've got no reference point. Right. So if you give them something really shit and then you do what you actually want to do and then you do something really extreme, the reference point there are the anchors. Well, that's really shit, but that's too extreme. So let's land on this one. Whereas if I just gave them that, suddenly they'd come back and oh my God. Neighbors, delivery drivers. King Goldfish thinks you should do this. No, actually, now you've got a reference point. We still get what we want and what we know works, but it's just a little bit of a psychological, um, trick.

Speaker B: Nice. The other concepts that you mentioned that got banned, are they being banned by the platform kind of automatically, or are they being banned because people have flagged them and manually gone and reported those ads?

Speaker A: A little bit of both. Um, we had a sex toy brand a couple of years ago which was very, very hard to get stuff through, even like you really nuanced stuff. But we recently had a penis enlargement company on and, um, the ads are very fun for that and we're getting them through no problem at all. So I think Zuckerberg, whatever he's drinking, then keep drinking it because we're getting, we're getting some cool stuff through now.

Speaker B: It's not coffee. He doesn't drink coffee. I know that. That was weird, man. But yeah, um, so thinking back to some of, uh, my own frustrations in previous roles and run ins that I've had with, with other people on the marketing team or senior leadership at certain businesses, um, it can't, like, like you said, if you're not in a position where you initially don't have the data to back up what you're saying. It does become a different conversation when you have the results and you can say like, look like this is working. So are you going to do what makes money? Are you going to continue to do what doesn't? But if you're for those people out there who might even struggle to get the buy in to do those first initial, um, more exciting or different concepts that push the boundaries, are there any ways to work with the Brown police in a sense to not. You don't want to burn those bridges completely, but you do want to try and get your point across.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean for me, before we get to the data stuff. Yeah. I think approaching things from a logical standpoint and I think when you make people say things back to you and they say out loud sometimes that helps them realize how stupid it sounds. So I think when, when you're coming in for a startup here and I go right, realistically, what can you compete on here? Let's say you've got a product based business, um, is it, you know, the range of products that you've got? Well, probably not. Is it, you know, time in market and you've got an audience that you own? Probably not. No referrals or anything like that. Price, can you compete on that? Potentially, it depends what market you're in, you know, other economies of scale at play. Realistically, what can you compete on? Well, for me there's, there's two things on the acquisition side. It's creative variety and volume. You don't have the red tape. You can move fast, you know, you can break things, you can learn and you can iterate, you can get stuff done quickly. And then the second thing is your customer service more often than not because they're humans and you can get, you know, get that customer in and then retain them, delight them, upsell them, cross sell them. So the big frustration point is when, when you look at a business and you know it's an amazing product or service and you know the service is fantastic if they just had the chance to get that in the hands of customers. But you can't because they're cutting the throat of the acquisition up at the top. So that's kind of the most frustrating thing. But if you approach from a logical standpoint and go, well, what are your usps? And if you're not going to do create a volume of writing, you're just going to be a btech version of this person in the market, what do you realistically expect to happen? You'll be happy, Mr. M. Brand Police. But guess what, you'll get sacked pretty quickly because the business will go bump. Um, so for us we can come in and then it's like say it's not really a game of opinions because you have your opinion based off. I like it because I like blue. And we have our opinion based off hundreds of millions of pounds of revenue and tens of thousands of ads and split tests and data and information from the market right now across multiple industries, including industries like yours. So do we, do I like blue or do we do millions of data points? And then you sit and you wait and you stay quiet and then you ask them to choose which one they want to go down. And then obviously once it actually starts, you get the data back quickly and then it's a very easy decision because you go, here's what you said. Here's what we said. We run alongside each other and we haven't lost yet. Um, so it's just getting, trying to use logic and a little bit of reason and to get them to the stage where you're at least allowing that you at least get allowed to be tested against them.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. So I want to drill down on this point about creative variation and volume and it's something that I think about a lot because at Lunio, um, with AI overviews and search now, and it's become common across B2B, like organic traffic is just tanking across the board for most B2B businesses. And it just seems like blogs and written content just don't hold the same sway or influence that they do anymore. So we've made a definite choice to move away from that and move towards YouTube. And it's something that I'm less familiar with. And right now when I'm approaching YouTube and when we're thinking about what we can do, it is just kind of like, well, let's just throw shit at the wallet and see what sticks. And it doesn't feel like we're approaching it in the most organized or systematic way. And I'm keen to hear from you selfishly, is there any way that you can do this systematically in a way that uh, you know, has more rhyme and reason to it rather than just throwing shit at the wall?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's a, it's a good thing for people because they might think content is like such a time and cost heavy thing. Actually it's not if you plan it like this. So we break everything down into a modular format. So you're going to have the hook you're going to have the meat and you can have the CTA break it down into those three parts. So the meat, you might have one or two of those. Based off what it is that you do, that's probably not going to change. And then the CTAs can obviously change and be interchangeable, uh, there. But then the most important thing are the hooks, because you, you know, you could have the best video in the world five seconds on, but if no one gets that five seconds, it doesn't matter. So the hooks are dead important as well. So actually, rather than filming 30 videos or whatever it may be, if you've got two meets there, you've got five different CTAs and you've got 20 different hooks, you do the maths on how many pieces of content you'll have there, even though you've only had to record two of the hefty bits in the middle. And then from there it's making sure that you understand actually what it is that you are tracking. Make sure you've got the metrics in there. Uh, so if you're on meta ads or something like that, you know, you can look at the, the thumbstop rate and the watch time and actually, well, they only watch it for 12 seconds, but all our social proof was at 20 seconds, for instance. So let's potentially move that forward and see if that has an impact on conversions or clicks or whatever it may be. The more you think about things in a modular format like that, where you're just swapping things around, your customer doesn't know from Adam what you're trying to achieve, but you need to figure out what are the pain points, because as soon as you find an angle, let's iterate on that. Let's do six different hooks of that angle. That angle could be done in ugc, it could be done in egc, it could be done in still, it could be done in motion graphics or whatever and then figure it out. And over time, as long as you're recording all this stuff, you'll go, right, these angles really work well. Videos work well for this. When it comes down to founder content, the raw stuff outperforms the polished stuff and then you've got a big bank there. So when you sat there at the end of the year going, what do we do for next year? Well, here's all the data of all the best performing and all the worst performing. So let's double down on this now because this year we were just kind of finger in the air. Now we've Got data. So we can actually be sensible about that and do it properly.

Speaker B: I love that point about the hooks and like, you can keep the meat the same and create loads of different variations of the hooks. And it's something that I find is that, yeah, it's like those first five seconds on YouTube, it's like, oh, man. Like, it's ruthless. Like, if you don't get people in those first five seconds, it's done. That video is not going to do anything. And like, it is. It pays off to pay so much more attention to those first five seconds than you do to stuff that happens way later on in the video. Because, yeah, people will be watching. Um, you mentioned, um, or you mentioned Zuckerberg and Meta. Uh, we won't dwell on him too much, but, uh, I know from, from stuff that you've said in the past that Advantage plus campaign seem to work very, very well for some of your clients. But I want to go channel specific and when we're thinking about the brand guidelines as a mantra, that's helpful. I can see that. And I think it's somewhat more obvious to see how that's going to work on a platform like Meta or TikTok. Is there an opportunity to bring this mantra and, or this way of thinking into Google search ads and Bing search ads, where you're a bit more constrained with what you can actually put in front of people?

Speaker A: I think it takes a lot more skill, like, say, with the character limits on there. Um, and again, it depends on your industry and the competition, because if you're coming in and you're an accountant, for instance, and everyone, when you type it in, it's like qualified ACA near me and the next ad. Qualified ACA near you. Okay, great. Well, that's a really good opportunity because everyone sounds exactly the same there. So you could literally just inject a little bit of conversational tone that is automatically going to grab someone's eye or thumb to get that first click in there. So it doesn't have to be, you know, go crazy and step fire with full anarchy. Sometimes it can just be speaking like a human. So check the competition, look in their ad libraries. It's free. See what everyone else is doing and then don't do that. That is literally my number one rule for marketing. Whatever everyone else is doing, let's not do that. Ah. And that's how we can, you know, stop more scrolls and take market share. Particularly if you're. You're a small business. That is your unfair advantage. I can move faster than you take More risk. And I don't have to bow to about 15 different shareholders, um, who are going to make me jump through hoops. And by the time you know you've got it, people are still doing the Hawk tour trend now fucking two years too late because you've only just got sign off like that. That's a killer. But that's the nature of when a brand builds. Um, so yeah, as a smaller business, use it to your advantage because you're not that important or memorable unfortunately. And people can't seem to accept that.

Speaker B: Well, this is so hard. Like everyone has their own ego and like it's, this is the thing, it's like, like you're in the business in the weeds of a day to day and you think that other people care about it and it's like absolutely not like people care about themselves.

Speaker A: What was the last thing you bought from an ad?

Speaker B: Uh, weightlifting straps for lifting. Like, uh, that was, but it was a brand that I was already aware of.

Speaker A: And do you remember what the ad said that you clicked on?

Speaker B: It had a famous weightlifter in the ad that I know and like, so I was like, I'll buy that. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: More often than not people instantly that even the second they, the, the second they've clicked it, they've already forgotten. We see that sometimes when we tested it with putting the discount codes in the actual ad creative itself and not having it on the site, the second they've clicked it they've already forgot what the discount code was. Whereas actually when it's on the site, obviously more people are going to use it because people have short memories and they are selfish little bags of flesh coming on there going, can you make my life better? That's it. That's the goal of any.

Speaker B: The weightlifting straps are not making me any better, but they look cool. I feel like I'm really playing the part anyway when I've got them on. Uh, yeah, fingers crossed, we'll see how that goes. Okay, the last point I want to touch on here is, um, you've kind of touched on it. Like this is really important and really valuable for small businesses especially because they do have a big advantage and like you said, they don't have the shareholders and they don't have the red tape to go through. Do a different set of rules start to apply once you cross a certain threshold? And do you need to started thinking about, okay, well we've reached a certain revenue number or certain headcount in the business and now is the time for us to start getting Those brand line brand guidelines going.

Speaker A: And for me I would, I would even keep it, ah, at that small business level, but understand where you're using it. So when people land on your, you know, your organic pages. Yeah, have it, have it on brand. When people are receiving your emails. Yeah, have it on brand. Yeah, have your website on brand. Leave the ads alone. They're all just magnets designed to pull people in where your actual website and your comms can do the work of putting, pushing them in between those brand guidelines to understand who you are. But ultimately I think that, that that's the major thing. And obviously like you say, uh, as you do get bigger and you might get shareholders there, there is more at stake if something does go wrong. Whereas if you know, you write something funny or snarky or whatever, now, you know, within three, four days people have forgotten it. You know, like I say, it's that spotlight effect. Everyone thinks people are looking at the not they're too busy. Like, uh, you get hit with 10,000 pieces of content a day, you, no one's asked about what you wrote, Terry, I promise you, like, put something else out. Let's go again.

Speaker B: Nobody cares about you. That's a good note to finish on and uh, we'll leave it there. So everyone listening, Go set fire to the brand guidelines and start uh, doing some real creative variation and volume. I just wanted to say again, Louis Massive, thank you for joining us today, being our first in studio guest. Uh, it's been a pleasure. Is there anything else you'd like to mention or let people know about before we wrap up?

Speaker A: Uh, if you are struggling with creativity, then come and join the University of Creative Idiots. It's our community, um, to help people get better at marketing. Marketing and stop being so shit. And it only costs 45 pounds a month rather than paying someone thousands of pounds. So it's a good bunch. And if you need a hand with it or you have been, uh, all your creativity has been squeezed out by corporate, we are the place for you. So yeah, check it out@join UCI.com and

Speaker B: you might, you might start getting your ads banned and then that'll be a badge of success, like things are going

Speaker A: in the right direction. Of course you should have certificates on the wall. I know, I know. Dan's got one for about 100 bands or something like that. Something daft.

Speaker B: And if you're not following Lewis already on LinkedIn, you definitely should do because occasionally you might discover new words like influencer, uh, and you're definitely more of a quality over quantity person when it comes to the post. And so you know if you see a post from Lewis pop up in your feed, it's worth a read. But yeah, thanks again Lewis. Really enjoyed the conversation.

Speaker A: Thank you mate. Pleasure.

Speaker B: That's it for this episode of the Paid Media Lab. Uh, thanks for tuning in. If you found it helpful, hit the subscribe button to get the next episode as soon as it's released. Subscribe Subscribing costs nothing and it helps us bring you the best possible guests in the next season. And if you want more advice on how to boost your return on AD spend, head to Lunio AI where you'll find loads more free tools, resources and guides. Lastly, if you know any other marketers who benefit from the tips in this episode, you can do them and us a favor by sending them the link to the show. That's all for this one and I'll see you in the next episode.