#549 Daniel Roth - Coaching

Speaker A: Foreign. Hello, and welcome to the next 100 days podcast. My name is Graham Arrowsmith.

Speaker B: And, um, my name is Kevin Appleby. So, Graham, we've got an author on the show today, uh, somebody who talks about the E3 effect. Now, I've got no idea at all what E3 effect is, so we're going to have an interesting time finding out.

Speaker A: We are. And, um, um, he describes himself as a bit of a nomad. Um, but I suspect the roots to this sort of way of, um, thinking about, um, things is, um, uh, what we're going to find out now because. Daniel Roth, welcome to the next 100 days podcast.

Speaker C: Kevin. Graham, thanks for having me.

Speaker A: You told us earlier that, um, you're currently in Canada, you come from Atlanta, Georgia, and you, um, you live in a kind of van that takes you around the world.

Speaker C: Yes, yes, uh, very much so. Uh, my home base is Atlanta, Georgia. Uh, raised my son there and, uh, family. Um, and, um, when we became empty nesters, we loved to travel. My son went to university in Spain. When we dropped them off, we just said, my wife and I said, why don't we just keep doing this? And four months later we released most of the things that we owned and started with Airbnb and hotels. And after a while decided we loved it so much we built out a sprinter van. And so if you have been on YouTube and you've seen those folks going around as digital nomads, uh, that is myself and my wife, uh, full timing in a sprinter van.

Speaker A: Well, your wife shares the same name as my wife. And the one thing about, um, names is they age people. Now, the thing is with, with your wife's name and mine. My wife's name, um, I have a pretty good idea of as to when she was born. Um, so we, I, you know, I'm too indelicate to say exactly when, but about 1963. So is that about right?

Speaker C: You're. Within a decade.

Speaker A: Within a decade. Blimey,

Speaker C: you are about right.

Speaker A: No, seriously, I know you had to say that for the. Otherwise you won't get your.

Speaker B: I've told you before, never broach the subject of a woman's age.

Speaker A: Well, we'll talk about a weight then. Uh,

Speaker C: my wife will talk about her age all day long. Um, she, uh, really loves the aspect of aging, actually, and believes there's a lot to be said for, um, being able to live on this earth as long as we are able to.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's a wonderful perspective. And, um, we should have had her on, really, shouldn't we? Kevin, that would have been better. Um, um, okay, so let's get down to Brass Tatz, because people want to know, um, what this consummate professional with a discipline of a true operator and the vision of an entrepreneur has created here. Now, you call it the E to the power of three effect, or E3 effect. Tell us more about that.

Speaker C: Correct. So the E3 effect, and yes, it's an exponential. Three is the way I organize the operating reality of a business. And it stands for enable, empower, and endeavor. So we enable the work with clarity and capability. We empower people with real ownership and decision rights, and then endeavor through measurement, feedback, learning, and accountability through execution is in there. So many people talk about execution. When you talk about business. The thing about execution, it has an endpoint. And businesses, successful businesses, don't have an endpoint. When they achieve their strategy, they set up their next strategy. They evolve, they endeavor to continuously improve. So that's why I chose endeavor instead of execute.

Speaker A: All right, that's interesting. Enable empowerment, an endeavor. So you wander into one of your corporate clients, whether that's in Canada or the United States, wherever. Um, you, um, you. Your conversation. How does it, what does it revolve around? How long do you stay. Excuse me? How long do you stay there? And, um, how do you guide them from where they are to where you'd like them or where they, they'd like themselves to be?

Speaker C: Yeah, it depends on the specific of that client's need. But I'll just give you a situation. I had a. Where a, uh, client was a running, uh, business, but they had outsourced their member service operation to another business, and for various reasons, they wanted to bring it in house. They had no skillset, no capabilities, and no experience really in running a member service operation. So I had a situation where I needed to stand up a member services operation for new members in about 10 weeks. So in a very quick timeline, and with that kind of timeline, it's very easy for urgency to become that operating model where everybody jumps in, decisions funnel through a few people, and then you tell yourself later that you're going to build the structure. But we took a very different approach. We established clear ownership very early on. We created visible service measures and then a very tight daily review rhythm. And then we created a way to resolve the issues quickly without every decision having to work its way back up through one executive or even through the board who was leading this initiative. And we were able to launch in 10 weeks. And what was really great is the team reached a 99.2% answer rate and a 91% first response time, um, attainment immediately. And the lesson in that was that the operating discipline doesn't have to slow you down. Done well, it removes ambiguity so the organization can move faster without everything depending on a leader or the decision tree.

Speaker A: Is it a way of describing what you got lucky with in the project, or is it a way of describing what you came through the door with? So you mentally, you've got this process figured and it's a repeatable process, presumably because you've written a book about it. The end of the day, you go in there and you deliberately follow this process. Is that what's happening here? And if you're following your process, what are you missing out? So you can actually do things in 10 weeks?

Speaker C: So, yes, there is a framework, a blueprint that we follow. However, the inputs could be very different and that will determine, uh, where we spend more time and effort and less. So, for example, if this particular organization, with this organization did not, but if they had all of their processes well documented and well defined, but they didn't have the people or the technology, I would have been able to spend all the time on the people and technology piece. However, in this case, really there was a lot of institutional knowledge with the other group and they were not prepared to share it. So we had to build from scratch that knowledge. So more time was spent on building up a single source of truth that was usable from day one. And, and then what were the escape paths, the paths to escalate when we didn't have the right answer right away? And how could we do that as quickly and as efficiently as possible? So we spent more time on that part of the process. And the technology, I had to move faster on, and I had to find the right partner that could implement very quickly from a technology standpoint, because we had such a short timeframe. So the inputs from the business drive where we, we need to pay attention. But an operation requires certain results. They require single sources of truth. They require disciplined workflows, they require ownership rights and decision rights. They require things like this. So I'm looking for what's missing, the difference of which would make the difference. And then I'm putting that in.

Speaker A: Right. So if you don't see it, you know, you have to fix that bit. And so therefore you put your energy into those things that you need to fix because the rest of it is going to coalesce at some stage.

Speaker C: Correct? Correct. And a good operating structure removes ambiguity.

Speaker A: Yeah, this must be familiar for you, Kevin. I Mean you work for one of these highfalutin, um, top four or whatever they call themselves. What do they call themselves? Kevin,

Speaker B: the word you're looking for is management consultant.

Speaker A: Oh, that's it? That's

Speaker B: it, yes. But Daniel, I guess my question to you, you're going and you're talking to these various businesses. Is there just you or are you bringing a team with you?

Speaker C: I bring a team with me, but it depends on who needs to be part of that team. Um, if, if it requires project management, right. We have that expertise. If it requires, uh, learning, uh, and development, we, uh, have that expertise. Right. We're a lean Six Sigma shop, so we have that. We are also certified in certain assessments from uh, a hiring and fit profile and coaching and development standpoint. So it depends on the specific needs of the business, but we'll bring the right resources in depending on what is needed.

Speaker A: Your whole thing, I'm looking at the performance architecture partnership thing with the circles and the six sort of elements here. It feels like you've sort of crystallized what goes into. Are they projects or running a business? I'm not quite sure, but basically, let's just say projects within a business. And you figured out that you need metrics, you need a processor, you need workflows, you need to understand capability of workflow, uh, of workforces, you need governance and I suppose keeping, and that includes managing risk. You need operating rhythm. Um, that's an interesting one. Um, and then you need, ah, technology systems, these things that are there in your head and in your systems. And you go in there and as you said earlier, you're chopping, you're figuring out what's missing and then presumably you bring in the right kind of guy who comes along and fixes technology systems. Because you can't be an expert in everything.

Speaker C: Correct. But let's actually take a step back before we even bring in those six areas that you just, uh, mentioned. Um, we first look at the overall business and the business objective. What is the mission, the purpose, the strategy of the business is that clearly defined and documented? Most of the time it is. The company knows why they exist and they understand their purpose. Right. But sometimes it's actually, uh, not quite as clear as it could be. And so the first thing is we look at that, but then I look at what are the metrics that the business is using to, to determine that they're actually winning. And I use the term winning in my book, winning and being successful at their strategy and purpose. One company I, I was with, I was talking to CEO. And they, they had, they were very large and they lost a, uh, large client at one point, dropped down about 25% of their business and then would spend several years kind of lingering there. And we're just one new business about to grow very quick. So their business did not have the internal skill set around growth anymore. They had to rebuild it. They still had seasoned people, but they just weren't used to that rhythm and that pace. I asked him, well, what is, what is your dashboard? What do you review? He goes, oh, we have a great dashboard. Like great. Uh, tell me about it. It has 53 metrics on it. Like. Right. I saw the look on your face there Graham. And you know, that was the first problem. Well how as a frontline team member, how do I tie the work that I do when I come in in the morning or in the afternoon when I start my shift? How do I tie that back to the strategy? And the truth was there wasn't a good through line. And so the first thing I look for is there a clear through line from the very top strategy all the way down to the frontline roles that we're going to be assisting, uh, whether it's a company wide or a particular part of the organization. Member services, for example.

Speaker A: Yeah,

Speaker B: yeah. Now I've seen that problem in reverse, Daniel. I remember at least one PwC project where we went into the client to produce that dashboard because it didn't exist. Now I'm told back in the days when you didn't have data coming out your ears like you have today. And question one is, so what's your strategy? That's where you get the head scratching moment. Exactly. What is our strategy? So what was put the performance metrics together project becomes into a what's your business strategy project. Because we, we've got to have that exact alignment that you're talking about. No point in having a dashboard full of metrics if they don't deliver the strategy you're after.

Speaker C: Correct, correct. And you know, I'll give you a quick example of a scenario. I had come in for a transformation in a healthcare organization where uh, the service center had pivoted, um, away from the overall mission of the company. They were still engaged, very charismatic, leader in place. So everyone got along. But their metrics, as the uh, chief operating officer told me did, no longer were aligned with the company's metrics. And there was, and there was siloing occurring of that team. And so I was brought in for a transformation effort. And my first question was, does the organization Know what this team does and does this team know what the organization expects of them? So I did a roadshow and I went around and I interviewed each one of the leaders of the various uh, organizations. And I'll never forget the sales uh and marketing leader said to me, and this was a uh, call center that scheduled uh, appointments for new uh, for healthcare and said when we are on the phone with them, she wanted it to feel like a warm hug. That's what she wanted to feel like over the phone. That's a crystal clear picture that she can use in marketing. Right. So what I did is after much work I turned that into what I called a North Star principle. And we had about six North Star principles. One of them was Serve Warmly.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And Serve Warmly meant for both internal stakeholders and external stakeholders. That is how we treated each other when we were working. And so that is something that the team could hold on to and everyone across the organization bought into.

Speaker A: And um, the results uh, are uh, there on your website. I think it's the same ones. It said you enabled 443,000 scheduled appointments annually. 110% increase.

Speaker C: Correct.

Speaker A: Pretty impressive that. Uh,

Speaker C: yeah, yep. But that only occurs and we actually did that with a 57% drop in operating cost over a four year period. But that only happened because we got crystal clear in what the organization expected from us. We understood what metrics that, that we delivered were important to the other departments and then what metrics were important to them. And there was a lot of cross functional work to improve. A lot of organizations I find that too much of the work is they're trying to solve problems that's outside of their control. And so one of the big things that we come in when we're digging into the operation is what is controllable and what's not controllable.

Speaker B: Yeah, that reminds me of dashboard work again. Uh, we'd come up with a list of 50, 60 things we could measure. Stuck them on a 3 by 3 matrix on one column was well what's the impact of this thing that we're going to measure on the business on the other axis was uh, and what control have we got over these, this thing? If we don't have any control over it, what's the point of measuring it?

Speaker C: Or do we need to bring other groups into the conversation? Because potentially it's a policy, potentially it's a shared responsibility across two different teams. Right. And so uh, sometimes there's still I think a point in measuring it. But are we bringing the right stakeholders into that Conversation and are we asking the right questions and not in a way that will drive defensiveness and cause defensive. Are we not, are we doing it from a point of blame? Oh, we're missing and it's your fault. That's not going to work. Um, to um, you know, we identified this as a gap. We've identified these inputs for the gap and some of the inputs are outside of our control. I'd love to bring you into that conversation.

Speaker B: M.

Speaker A: You. Um, this is a high level consultancy isn't it? So people basically will come, come to you and they've got a big problem but they don't have the staff to do it or they don't have the capability to do it until they, they end up at your door. Why your door rather than Kevin's old company who originally developed that 53. Um, um, um, uh, item dashboard. Because you just said it Kevin. You just told the world that uh, your, your X company used to do lots of um, 50 odd things uh, in a dashboard which.

Speaker B: No, no, no, I said the opposite Graham. I said that you'd, you'd get down, you, you'd have a long list that you had to get down to a short list. I was talking about the process of getting from one to, to other.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm

Speaker B: with Daniel. If you've got more than about 12, you, you've got too many.

Speaker A: Well, I mean I've always, when it comes to managing, um, you know, things like my, my what am I going to get done today? I would never go beyond 10 because it's just too much.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Brain can't function

Speaker B: around those.

Speaker A: You've got more than 10 things to do in a day, then there's something wrong with you. Um, uh, uh, but anyway that's another

Speaker B: factors we've got in Grossfire, our business partnering course for finance folk where it's essentially teaching finance leaders to be more sales and marketing people and how to get messages across. And one of the things that we talk to them about is all the time is number three, only talk about three things to the business. Only talk to them about three numbers.

Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, this is okay. But this is the, shall we say, the nub of consultancies. So why you? It's the value proposition question, isn't it? Why you and not them?

Speaker C: Here's what I would say and I won't say why not them. I'll say why us? Um, so why Pangea effect? Um, we have created a crystal clear roadmap around a concept that we coined execution drift and execution Drift is the gradual separation between the company's strategy and the direction in which the operation is generally performing. And if those are not going in the same direction, then you are not going to be able to hit your target at all. Or you will hit it much slower and it'll be much more costly than what it could otherwise. So if you're looking to accelerate and to be able to amplify the results for your strategy, then we are coming from an operator's point of view. We understand strategy deeply, but we look at it from an operator's point of view. And if you're an organization where you have gaps in your operation, that is where we can help make the outcomes clear, make ownership real, give people the authority to act and to build an operating rhythm that tells you when the execution is drifting from your lead measures. You're not waiting for your lag measure to tell you, oh no, I've got a big problem.

Speaker A: Mhm. So, okay, so, okay, so there's a lot of measurement, there's, there's a lot of, uh, I want to say introspection. It's you looking into a company to see where they're, where they're failing, um, to keep the rhythm, to get to the goals that they're setting for themselves or you're helping them set. Um, again, you do strategy really well, but so does Kevin's old company. So what is it about you? And let's say, um, because. And anybody wants to know about, um, uh, Daniel. His website is Pangea Effect. And um, so it's um. You have to give us an idea of what that means.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so glad you asked. So the originating story, right. Of Pangea Effect is if you think of Pangea, that is the supercontinent. And so businesses, if you think about businesses, business startups, and as they're growing are just one supercell, potentially one superhuman. Right. That's building it and getting it off of the ground. And over time you have to specialize. You start to break up that person that does everything into separate groups. Just like Pangea broke up into tectonic plates. Right. And continents.

Speaker A: Oh, I see.

Speaker C: Then over time a business oftentimes becomes too, um, siloed, too specialized and sometimes they have to come back together and, and bring it back together. So the effect part of Pangea effect is the knowing when to bring it apart and when to bring it back together and what is the right balance and scale there. And the E3 effect is our methodology to do that.

Speaker A: So people know this, do you promote this or are you just not bothered about having loads of customers? You just want the right 10 or whatever, whatever the number of customers you have. Ah, what's your approach to your own business?

Speaker C: We grow through referrals. That is our primary growth mechanism. Um, we, you know, I'm out here with the podcast, right. So that's helping to get the word out as well. We released the book, uh, last year, late last year. So we're starting to have what I would call a snowball effect around the marketing components. But really it's been through word of mouth and referrals, uh, where we make a difference for a client. They either have moved on to another organization or they know someone else that's having a similar pain point and bring us in. Um, and that's been really where we have found our best opportunities. Companies that know that they have a real gap and are ready to fund the fix for it, or well funded startups that want to actually build the foundation. Right and then build their business on that strong foundation like we did with that 10 week member service center versus building and then going, oh no, what have we done? And having to go back and have all these legacy systems to fix.

Speaker A: And so if you had to choose the ideal customer, would it be um, rather than somebody who's starting life and all that could go wrong with that, but you basically you pick a big guy who's got a reasonably sized business and a number of um, big meaty projects and obviously the budget to go with it. Am I sort of describing your ideal customer?

Speaker C: That is correct, yes. Graham, you are uh, definitely mid size to Fortune 500 size organizations. We work a lot with Fortune 500, uh, organizations.

Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, but and they must love it when you turn up in your van with, and it'll have go faster, stripes down the side and tangier effect and something weirdly in 3D on the top of the van's roof. Uh, that'd be awesome. Here he is, here's Daniel.

Speaker C: That's

Speaker A: the

Speaker C: next iteration of the van.

Speaker B: Daniel, your background, you're doing some pretty big things in client services, call centers, client experience, experience in big corporate. How did you get into this consultancy gig?

Speaker C: Yeah, so, um, my backstory is that I've been in and around operations for more than 27 years. But I didn't start out thinking about transformation or operating models or even uh, not being an employee. I started in commission retail, but I learned pretty quickly that performance gets real when the numbers are visible and you're accountable for the result. Then I helped uh, Ritz Carlton property, which taught me something very different. You could see how expectations, leadership development and the environment around people shaped the way they performed. So culture wasn't something you just spoke about. It showed up in how the operation worked every day. And I went on from there to help build a startup that was later acquired. And over time I just found myself leading increasingly complex organizations, eventually responsible, uh, for teams of more than 2,500 people and a $70 million P&L working across many industries and around the world. What connects all these experiences, Kevin, is that I spent most of my career inside the execution side of the business, figuring out why something that makes complete sense in the boardroom often gets harder once it reaches the people doing the work. And that's what really led me to Pangea effect and eventually the E3 effect. Uh, what I like to say is I'm still working on the same question that I've been working on most of my career, which is how do you build a business that performs consistently because of how it operates, not because its leaders keep compensating for how it doesn't.

Speaker B: Yeah, but how did that. And you talk about that experience of sort of leading a big P and L, having many, many people working for you into moving out of that, the consultancy space. How did that come about? Because that's quite a change of direction. One of the things that we have quite often on this podcast are folks that have done the big corporate escape. And it's kind of something that fascinates Graham and I.

Speaker C: I think there's a few, uh, inputs that help drive that. One is, um, a few of the startups I've been part of, uh, I know the serial entrepr who created them. So the entrepreneur, serial entrepreneur was in my life. And you know, they say the sphere that you surround yourself with, right, you start to think and, and, and learn and uh, with them. And so I got to observe successful startups, um, and specifically in the consulting space that converted into very large organizations. And I participate in some as employees, I participate in some as a consultant, um, and then from consultant to being hired as an employee. And so I got to go through this a few rounds. And then I ended up at an organization that was, uh, having some challenges financially and going through constant transformational projects one after another after another. And I had my plan well set. I had it signed off by finance. We had an eight point plan, fully documented, ready to go. And these consultants came in and, and the organization said, open your books up, show everything you need to give Them full access because they're going to help develop a plan for every department across the organization. Great. Did that show them my plan? And I was so excited for what they would show me that would improve on what we had built in our eight point plan. What they ended up presenting was my eight point plan verbatim on their letterhead. Identical. And that was my aha moment. My aha moment is I understand what needs to do. I have the resources, I have the connections and I have the experience. It's time for me to go jump in and see, you know, can I be a true entrepreneur.

Speaker A: And it looks like you have been. And the number of companies here that I recognize, uh, just about everyone. Some of them are uniquely American, but basically, you know, you've got some very, very big clients. Ah. Or people that you've worked with. Um, the ones that I would kind of like is the ones where you obviously got your free lunch because it's like Taco Bell and, um, I don't know, somebody else. Pizza Hut, wasn't it? I mean, so basically you picked these for a particular reason. Uh, Daniel.

Speaker C: So my secret sauce, Graham, if, uh, someone else was to say, I think it'd be a few things. One is, I am tenacious, um, but my secret sauce is I'm really good at seeing where execution is breaking and being very, um, very non judgmental about it. So that way I can translate that into a diagnosis that then and then into an operating system that can actually be run by a, uh, layman.

Speaker A: Got you. Ah, uh, instant. Okay, well that's really important really, isn't it? Because you don't want to be there forever. You definitely want to diagnose. And it's almost like if a doctor gives you a diagnosis, then he's probably got to stick around or a nurse or whatever, but you leave it so clear that somebody can implement for you.

Speaker C: Absolutely. In fact, one of the services we provide because we found that some companies just don't have the team yet to deliver. One of the gaps I think in consulting, management consulting particularly, is so many companies will come in with a plan, but then the moment that there's some accountability behind the execution of the plan, they want out as quick as possible. So we provide a service called performance. As a service, we'll work with you and agree on a plan and agree on metrics, and as long as you give us the correct empowerment and ownership and uh, we will help you endeavor to create those results and be accountable for, and set up our compensation models around, around that performance. So We're a company that will stand behind the work that we do. And not all management consulting companies will truly do that.

Speaker A: So you're taking some of the risk of the uh, advice that you're giving.

Speaker C: 100%. Yeah. If I don't believe it would work, why would I give that advice? And if I believe it would work, then why can't we help you execute it if you're not prepared to? But part of that is always a plan to transition it off. And the word that we use is seamless. It should be seamless to the external partners and external customers. They should never know who was doing the work. And that seamless transition over to the group that's going to own it long term.

Speaker A: And do you feel that some of the work that you've done, I mean, let's just say you've done 100 projects. 100 projects, um, turn out rosy or are ah, there sometimes things go wrong and is it beyond your control or did you sometimes. Oh, hold on a minute

Speaker C: first. Absolutely. Things go wrong all the time. Right. But when we actually do our root cause analysis on what went wrong, usually either the data was wrong, um, the work behind the integrations required to be able to make the data work in the future. Right. Doesn't happen or happen in the way it should. Um, underfunded, uh, it becomes an issue especially from other resource from other groups, lack of partnership across teams, um, oftentimes. One issue I've seen over and over again is that the champion that comes in to bring in Pangea effect, um, either a, they weren't fully empowered and it requires that cross functional work or at some point they put it on cruise control and they disengage.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: And when they disengage, the rest of the organization decides that they don't have to pay attention anymore. And that's so you know, if I was to ask one thing of the audience, if they were to bring in Pangea effect or really any consulting organization as a champion, your role in part is to stay engaged throughout the entire engagement, including post engagement.

Speaker A: Yeah. Something in your empower area I should think comes ah, to mind. But um, um, I mean we could probably talk to you for the rest of the day but um, you're in Canada and I'm sure you're trying to hot foot out of there. I mean they're making a right mess of their country, what can I say? But um, you know, truth is, um, you've been an absolutely fantastic guest on the next 100 days, uh, podcast, Daniel Roth. Thank you for joining us.

Speaker B: So, Graham, another interesting corporate escape story there.

Speaker A: Coming

Speaker B: out of sort of big corporate world and doing stuff as a consultant.

Speaker A: Yeah, those people who ripped off his work, um, ought to think less of themselves. But, I mean the, but it, it maybe was that push that he needed. Um, we probably all have it, Kevin. Don't we have those things where we're, we're kind of. I don't have to work for this buzzer. I can work for myself. Um, and, and that, that happens. But he's built a heck of a,

Speaker B: Again, in my case, I left it too long to make that, that jump and realize I could do it for myself.

Speaker A: I mean, I, I, he's worked with some pretty impressive, uh, businesses. Uh, so from, you know, he's obviously getting in at the kind of right level. And as he said, the businesses he's looking for, uh, as clients are, uh, a little bit bigger than the average guy. I mean, Pizza Hut for instance.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So

Speaker B: then again.

Speaker A: Yeah,

Speaker B: what were we talking about there? Pizza Hut as a client. Pizza Hut was in his network. And that's, that's the bit that I think you've got to get right when you're, um, setting up on your own. You've got to make sure that you've got that network you can go and use to get your first clients. It's vital.

Speaker A: Yeah. And uh, I've got to say, um, it's not always easy running a business. But I love the fact that him and his wife have decided to sort of empty nest themselves into a van and go around, you know, it just seems bliss.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, I'm not sure I could potentially do it myself. Well, I could. You

Speaker B: think of digital nomads as folk in their 20s and 30s and there we've got somebody at the other end of the age spectrum.

Speaker A: You've got to keep them young though, isn't it? Let's face

Speaker B: is great.

Speaker A: Yes. So anyway, anyway, on that basis, um, on, well, um, on that last piece of information about keeping yourself young by getting a van, um, and traveling around the world, I've been Graham Arrowsmith.

Speaker B: I've been Kevin Appleby. Goodbye,

Speaker A: Goodby.