📣 Digital Health Download: July 2026

Speaker A: Welcome to the Heart of Healthcare podcast. I'm Hallie Teko.

Speaker B: I'm Michael Esquivel. And I'm Steve Krause. And every Monday we bring you the latest in healthcare innovation as we sit down with entrepreneurs and industry experts.

Speaker A: So buckle up and join us as we figure out how to improve healthcare for all, uh, foreigners. And welcome back to the show. And hello, Steve. Do you know that this month, July, marks five years of the heart of healthcare.

Speaker B: Wow. Congrats. Thanks to our listeners. That's awesome.

Speaker A: Yes, it is no little feat to show up here every Monday and record these episodes week after week after week, but we have a lot of fun. So appreciate you, Michael, our other co host, Kyle, who's behind the scenes and everyone that listens every week. We love doing this. Um, and if you also love the show, please leave us a review, subscribe, do things that help us keep on going.

Speaker B: Yeah, totally agree. Love doing this. Let's, let's do the digital out download for the month.

Speaker A: Yes. All right, for the first story, I got the preliminary data from the Rock Health report which is going to be released very, very soon. This is their mid year, half year 2026 funding report and we have already hit $7 billion already surpassing where we were this time last year in terms of dollar amount. But the deal count is actually continues to trend slightly behind. This means we continue to see concentration of capital into these megadeals. So there are more companies that are raising bigger rounds and there's less money for everyone else. The average deal size is, it's really high. It's around 30 million, which was up from 20.6 million just two years ago. And there have been 18 megadeals so far compared to 27 in all of last year. So we keep hearing and talking about the story of the haves and the have not in digital health funding and the startups that are fundraising. Steve, I know you're having to go earlier and write bigger checks to get to your target ownership. How else would you describe what is happening in the funding market for digital health?

Speaker B: It's pretty amazing, Hale, the numbers that you cite and it is a very unique, exciting moment. So I want to talk about like now and how I'm reacting, how I think others reacting. But, but I would know like $7 billion, big number, right? Which if you analyze it would be 14 billion. And yet I look back because I saw you were going to talk about the story. And in 2021, the total number that was digital health invested in digital health was close to 30 billion.

Speaker A: 30 billion. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I would say that a lot of people must mis took that moment as like a real signal, like the, the COVID moment. Virtual care is going to be everywhere. It's going to be persistent. And so you had VCs and that was you know, peak bubbles or bubble. Right. But you had VCs. Really excited about digital health rightfully I think you and I would say investing $30 billion are in category and I think this moment is way more transformative to get like in context. And if you analyze the rock held numbers it's 14 billion. So I actually while it feels a lot, you know, because we went, we went through a dip and now we're on a resurgence, it actually comparatively is half amount of what was what I think a way less important moment in health care. I think people mistook it as a really important moment. It turned out not to be still important. Virtual care has made a dent. So let's just keep it in perspective. And by the way, I think the magnitude of impact on our industry I would argue is maybe 10x now what it was in the virtual care moment and maybe 100x. Right. So yeah, there's a little bit of frenzy, but I think relative it's not that huge I would say. Um, listen, I think what happens in these times is and I think people are excited for the right reason. Like this technology we talked about is perfectly suited for healthcare. We've gone on and on about that. And so what happens is, you know, I think tourists come in and they dip m their um, foot in at a later stage round. Right. And things that have like traction, they probably pay up. And that might look like a series B and series C C round and then those get really pricey and then they start to move down to the series A. And so the series A investors like myself have to like compete and, or decide to go earlier. And so that, like that, that happens by the way, that happens in the public markets, right? The public market investors like invest in these companies as they go public until they feel like, oh my God, the IPO rounds are really rich. And then they all start to come down and do the pre IPO round. So it's like, you know, everything flows downward. Right. So I think that's uh, that's, that's uh, that's a normal kind of cyclical phenomenon. Uh, that happens and we're seeing that now and then I'd say the other thing though is like, I don't know, I mean I. Yes, you're paying more, you're Writing bigger checks at larger valuations for equivalent or less ownership. But I think like for the first time in my career, you know I talked about this Eric Larson last week is these companies are accelerating so quickly. Like it's no longer like 0 to 5, which used to be like oh my God, amazing job, is now like ho hum, you know, for like it's got to be like 0 to 10 or 0 to 20 or you know, some, some going 10 to 100. Right. And so there's like a whole new standard. Like we haven't done our benchmarks. You know, my wonderful colleague Sophia does these benchmarks of growth and we did them for the virtual care and the value based care companies. We should do them, we did a little bit for the companies but we should refresh them because like the new normal is like 10 to 100. I mean that's probably top tier but still that's achievable. And so when you see that scale of growth you're like gosh, I guess I can pay 20, 30, 40, 50 times forward, uh, or at least current and might be that might be you know, 25 times forward with that type of growth. Right. So, or even less so I think that's how people get their minds around this right now would be my reaction. But what are you thinking?

Speaker A: And at the same time the exits are, at least in AI and hard tech, the exits are getting bigger and bigger. I don't think we've seen that in health care yet. Although we are going to talk about a very big exit as our next story.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but in terms of justifying paying higher prices, um, certainly the exit market is a big piece in that. I will say I did a paper looking at the unicorns from the Zurp Covid bubble. So 2020 to 2022 and I was really surprised that actually the majority of the, the unicorns that were minted are still around. A very small percentage have gone bankrupt like four Forward and Olive. There are a lot of really good companies in that cohort including Aura and Whoop, who we talk about all the time, Devoted Health, Alidade, Innovacer. And then we also have a lot of these tech enabled services like Hinge Health, Lira Health, Sword Health, Spring Health, really great companies row from, from that era. So I think that was a good era. I actually do think that a lot of great companies were built and have created durable businesses that still persist now. A lot of them haven't raised more money. Roe hasn't raised money since I think 2022, um, since their $7 billion valuation. So I think a lot of them, everybody's kind of waiting with bated breath on what will happen. Um, but when I look at them, I'm proud of this cohort.

Speaker B: The final thing I'll say is I do think that those are all great companies. You said. I'm glad they exist because they actually are a lot of them trying to improve the delivery of care and outcomes. Right. A lot of the AI companies currently are more administrative and operational, all B2B. It's all starting to move into the clinical side. Uh, but I would say I, I think this current cohort, let's call them the health AI companies, are going to have better unit economics. I think the imperative for the old cohort is to quickly move to being AI native, like. And actually.

Speaker A: Which we're seeing with Hinge. Right.

Speaker B: Hinge has done a great job with that, but others are going to follow and I think that's one thing. And the second thing I think we're about. I, I believe I'm not a stock picker or prediction maker, but I'll, I'll offer one. I think we're about to see the public markets, like, just really open up for a lot of this new wave of AI, Brent, generally and health AI. We have, you know, we have the platform already. SpaceX went out hugely popular. Rumors of open AI and anthropic to follow. I think those are, if they go out, hopefully going to be big successes. And those are platform companies. Those are like, you know, those are the largest and largest opportunities, but there's only a few of them. And so I think what happened is the public market's appetite is going to get wet and they're going to then move to more of these vertically focused companies in AI, broadly in different categories. And I think we're going to have our fair share, share in health care that have an opportunity to get public. And I, I think that'll just be a great thing because for our industries, we just need more successful public companies.

Speaker A: Well, we know, we know Aura, uh, is gearing up for their ipo. They have filed and then last, I think year, late, late last year, freenom also filed to go public. So we know that there are two. But yeah, I'm like, who are the next ones we have? I have an IPO watch list. I can link to it in the show. Yeah, because I think there are a lot of companies that are well positioned to be breaking open for us in the public markets.

Speaker B: All right, well, on to story number two. Speaking of Exits or at least big deals in our industry. The saga of Thoreau continues and just last week it was announced that Thoreau, which is run by Matt Holt who's a uh, very successful and well known investor in our industry, acquired Ensemble which is one of the largest revenue cycle management companies out there. Folks will remember Matt's name because that Matt was uh, uh, one of the senior guys at uh, New Mountain Capital. Actually responsible for some of their most successful exits with Signify Health IPO and then sale to CVS and then uh, Equan's $3.2 billion sale to to United Health Group. His, his track record is exceptional, I've seen it. And he's known for scaling healthcare services companies actually techie them and now his thesis is aifine them, um, uh, loading them up with capital and operational firepower, adding M M and A where appropriate and selling, scaling these things. And to his credit he's been able to sell a lot of them at sort of jaw dropping multiples. So Matt loves rcm. He targeted his first in his new Thoreau Capital, uh, is targeted at the Ensemble and was able to acquire it. And so if you're not in deep in the RCM weeds, just know that Ensemble manages 55 billion of net patient revenue dollars that across its footprint of over 200 hospitals nation. Um, so $12 billion they paid to acquire Ensemble but I'm m sure it's a profitable company. No doubt. And if it manages $55 billion and is able to techivy its platform, wow, this is a big big deal for our space. Hallie, I'm curious, uh, when you hear Matt holds name kind of like are you like wow, that price, that price is probably going to look cheap in retrospect. And how do you think about it for our industry?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I have a lot of respect for Matt. I've gotten to know him a little bit over the years and everything he touches turns to gold. Like he's just so savvy and strategic. I do want to point out how quickly this came together. I know uh, the deal that he was working on with New Mountain when he left was just a few months ago. And then somehow you know this deal came together in really a few months. I will say when I sold my company Natalist for a fraction of $12 billion, it was over 90 days. I mean it felt like forever going through that process. So like the speed at which Matt is truly remarkable, he obviously you know, is a name of himself but he does have a team of folks that have been supporting him. And so when we talk about change and innovation in healthcare, so much of what people gravitate towards are kind of these easy immediate wins and they're kind of happy stopping there. If I know anything about Matt, it's that he has just a huge vision, just really like fundamentally changing healthcare. And so I'm, I'm excited to see kind of what comes next of Thoreau. And we are going to get him on the podcast, hopefully sooner rather than later to talk a little bit more about it and get some insights into his vision.

Speaker B: It's funny, I'm, I'm really excited as like an industry participant because one of the things that I feel like our industry lacks is, is large incumbents, to use Eric Larson's term, that actually are move quickly, um, and think innovatively and are willing to take pay on a forward multiple for innovation. Um, and Matt, uh, and you know, private equity that sort of goes. Not that they don't all do it, but it's like tough because they're really cash flow oriented business. Matt has somehow been able to balance that. And so I think that's great because we have now a large incumbent in Ensemble when the deal closes that I believe will be an active acquirer based on his history, previous history. But I, you know, as someone who invests in some of these companies that are, you know, as I talked about, I'm really proud I got so many companies going from 0 to 10, 10 to 50. Like how do, how should they feel? How should all of this, these VCs that have put so much money in the RCM feel about Matt Holden Ensemble? Is this a good thing or a bad thing in your mind?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You're like, is he just making another incumbent that our other companies are going to have to go up against? I mean, I will say the average health system has more than 10 RCM vendors in place, which tells me that these startups to date have become more point solutions focused on one piece of rcm. And there are a lot of components to rcm as you know. So it could be they're focused on the patient engagement or the revenue capture or the back and forth with the health plans. And so Ensemble's positioning really feels like they're, they're end to end and so their clients, at least they say their clients only need Ensemble and not a dozen other other products. They also are working on top of Epic so you, you can be on Epic and it just like flows seamlessly versus trying to navigate that. So that to me seems like a huge Value prop to their customers. But I bet there's still room in the small and mid market as they really seem to be targeting large health care systems. So they're maybe they'll continue to grow and it'll be harder to compete against them with the large market. But certainly the market is bigger than just the large health systems.

Speaker B: It's going to be fascinating to see. But um, I'm glad he's back in the game. So, uh.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So, uh, obviously cannot have a digital health download without more talk on AI. So a nature study put the God models. Thanks to Eric Larson for putting that term in my head. Um, up against open evidence and up to date and actually Eric mentioned the study in the episode that we released last week. So definitely a great episode to listen to. But this study that was published in Nature, it tested whether these general purpose AI models, so we're talking about ChatGPT and Gemini and Claude, if they can perform as well as or outperform the specialized clinical AI tools for doctors. The two clinical tools they tested were specifically open evidence and upto date expert AI. And we've had folks from both of these companies on the show so we know what they're up to. And the frontier models, they beat the clinical tools on every measure of this specific study, including real physician queries reviewed by blinded clinicians. Open Evidence has now asked Nature Medicine to retract the paper. They, they say that it's a flaw methodology and specifically that they, the benchmarks they use were part of the frontier model. So um, anyway Steve, I want to hear hear your take on this story.

Speaker B: Well, the good news, and then I'll give you my take is that um, you know, we are lucky to be investors Anthropic and I recently met with their new head of health care product who runs all the health care product strategy equivalent. Sarah Russell is her name and she agreed to come on our show. So that'll be exciting. Yeah. And we can, we could talk with Sarah about, about some of this but Eric did talk about this Larson as you mentioned and um, I, I think, you know, I just think, I mean what Open Evans has been able to do from a bottoms up marketing and distribution strategy, winning over the hearts and minds of doctors has been incredibly impressive and yet and I'm, I'm really like amorous of their success not just in terms of fundraising numbers and valuation, but actually reported like real penetration and usage which is really hard to do in our industry. And yet I, I have always, I like when I first saw that investment and I didn't make it. My, my bad is I thought oh up to date and this is how fast the world moves because I was like oh up to date's just gonna figure this out. Now they're a slow incumbent and they didn't But I mean EPIC has got a play on cds. A bridge is making a play on cds and then on top of this the God models of anthropic and OpenAI are now clearly making a play. And I won't comment on all those players but like this is one place where I'm not sure how far and I'll talk to, we'll talk to Sarah about how far they want to go in terms of like developing product that is vertically focused beyond just the model because I think they believe the model is their product. Right. But if they are going to make a few plays in health care like CDS given how it's language based and it's so ripe for just like you know the power of the models to decipher what actually the right, right next best action should be based on that language and just the, the true power of the godmodels and the resources they have behind them.

Speaker A: Um, and and just for our listeners, CDS clinical decision support.

Speaker B: Sorry to get too wonky.

Speaker A: Well okay like at the point of care when a clinician is treating someone they can get quick at their fingertips information.

Speaker B: So like I think technically and this is you know I'm not, I'm not like the, the world's greatest data scientist but I think technically I don't see. I agree there. Given the resources that those enterprises have I don't see how they can't win the product war. Now the question baby in the godmods. Yes, thank you.

Speaker A: Because the open evidence is also very well capitalized.

Speaker B: I mean but, but I guess comparatively

Speaker A: yeah for health tech they really are

Speaker B: but they are really well capitalized and I kudos them but, but, but 12

Speaker A: $12 billion valuation versus trillion dollar and

Speaker B: presuming yeah and presuming you know the whatever in the future is going to hold. So my only point is if they, if the godmodels want to make play those companies, I don't, I think they went on product now distribution. I don't know like you know what is the ultimate, the ultimate decider. I believe from a top down like we're going to prove this at the health system level and have all push it down to our doctors and require they use it. Who wins that war like uh that's. That remains to be Seen? Is that epic? Is that open evidence? Is that a bridge? Is that, you know, is that open air? Is that anthropic? I don't know. Right? Like, that's, that's, that's the only problem I've seen of the bottom up strategies. Ultimately, you got to get the cmio, the ciso, right, the chief medical officer to prove this and then push it down. And that. That remains to be seen. And that's a distribution question.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: All right, all right. Now this is not an AI story, thank God. Not a GLP1 story, but it is a really interesting story. And it's, you know, it's one that. It's like, kind of been on the back of my, my mind because, Holly, I love sports, you know, that I love coaching. I just find. I find sports just that it quenches something that I need. And yet today, you can't watch a sports game without getting 10, five or 10. Gambling, you know, platform commercials. It's really depressing. I actually just went to my son's basketball tournament at Mohegan Sun. It's just like, that's not a fun place to be, unfortunately, just because of all the things that go on there.

Speaker A: Are they advertising there around the.

Speaker B: No, no, I'm just saying that I was at a casino and you just get reminded of like, the.

Speaker A: Oh, I didn't know that was a casino.

Speaker B: Yeah, Mohegan Sun's a casino in Connecticut. Yeah. But they also have like a basketball court. Anyways, my point being is, like, you see firsthand, and my son saw firsthand the effects of, of gambling and addiction. Like, people staying at the table all night long and the way they look the next day. And so anyways, Rock Health, who, which we. We love, put a piece this month that I think might be one of the most underappreciated health care stories of the year. And maybe for a decade, which is that, um, now, because sports betting has been legalized on these platforms, right? Which happened in 2018. Last year alone, Americans legally bet $148 billion on sports. And here's the number that, like, really shook me is nearly half. 48% of all men between 18 and 49 now have an account, an active account with at least one sportsbook, which is amazing. Um, so that means that, like, you know, half of the male population is, Is betting. And there are real issues around addiction. In fact, it's, you know, the. There was a study that the Hopkins, uh, public Health magazine put out that one in five people with a gambling disorder attempts or Completes suicide. That's higher. That's higher rate than those who suffer from substance use disorder because they're in

Speaker A: debt and they're ashamed.

Speaker B: They're in probably. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's an addiction and it's terrible. So, yeah, I saw this and I just was like, oh, my God, you know, what are, what are we going to do as a healthcare industry? Because now gambling is clearly an addiction that has this, you know, same ramifications as some of the other, you know, addictions that we, we have worked to treat as a society. And I feel like no one's really talking about this.

Speaker A: Yeah, really not. Um, and I know you said this is not a GLP1 story. However, there is early evidence that suggests that GLP1s can help reduce compulsive behaviors, including gambling.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's funny that we, we talk a lot about medical debt on our show. Right. And the, the, the cost of medical debt, which is roughly the average American. The number is $2,000 that they have medical debt. Well, what surprised me about some of the stories I read is that these, these, the, the, uh, average better bets about eleven hundred dollars online per year, which is like half of their medical debt. And as we know, the house always wins.

Speaker A: Huge problem.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then you have now these prediction platforms like Cal and Poly Market. So I just see, like. Which recently I see there's a lot of.

Speaker A: So crazy. And I don't. I, I really don't know anyone who uses these. At least they are not telling me that they use these. So it's just hard to. Obviously they are. Obviously a lot of Americans are using these. And it's just this example of how technology kind of supercharged things that like, already existed in like, small ways. And then it becomes like big problems like bullying. Like, bullying has always existed in the classroom and then the introduction of social media, and it's become ten times worse.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: And so you think about that in this case, it's like gambling has always existed. Did. But it's been contained to casinos and like horse races and whatnot. And now technology is enabling it and, and doing so in a way where, like, those product managers know what they're doing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: They know how to get you to

Speaker B: continue to Click and like $200 free. If you make a bet now you're like, that's not free.

Speaker A: They make more money. The more people are addicted to using it. Like, it is just as bad. It's like Purdue as, as. Yeah, as Purdue Pharma, as Juul, um, Nicotine So I think it's a real problem and the problem is the platforms have no incentive to change unless there's some new regulatory policy that happens at a federal level which we're, we haven't seen anything um, significant. It's just not going to change.

Speaker B: Well, I know you're, I know, I know you're a public health lover and aficionado and expert. So I thought that story would uh, would capture you and I think it's one we gotta watch.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, for sure. All right, my next story is about Midjourney. They are best known as the tool that turned the Internet into an AI art generator including these cat memes. Um, and they announced that they're moving into medical imaging. They announced a new division of their company called Midjourney Medical. This is a full body ultrasonic scanner they're calling ultrasonic ct. You step into this ring of water and you in theory get a 3D map of your body in what they say is 60 seconds. There's no radiation, no magnets. It's all like AI and sand grain sized transducers. I don't really understand it but fascinating. Um, and interestingly they want to offer it up. Um, they said that they are building a spa like facility in San Francisco next year and they're starting with this idea of a full body composition map rather than any sort of diagnostic tool. So it really can sidestep any sort of FDA clearance pathway. So they're really saying get a look inside your body. They are entirely self funded, no VC dollars. Midjourney has been profitable. Um and the CEO is using that Runway to make this very long term hardware healthcare bet. So are you bullish or bearish on Midjourney Medical?

Speaker B: Well you know it's funny like I first read this story when you told me when you shared with me and I was like oh man, the spa like facility and SF you know with my good east coast healthcare investor. But I have to be honest, like this is the same path Pernovo followed. Right? Like there is something to and even a bridge I we docked him like they had to go direct to consumer at first. And so there is something about going to direct to consumer and in San Francisco you've got a lot of people who are prevented, afford to pay, willing to pay. Right. Technology forward and so heck, I mean you know, as long as it's safe. Right? Or at least people are consenting to do this. I actually think it's a pretty interesting way. I don't quite so ah, so that's one. So I'm uh, I'm excited to see what happens and comes of it and maybe I'll be an early adopter. This because like, like I just have to fly there and use it. I'm there a lot. And I did do a ponova scan and it was, I found it super helpful.

Speaker A: I do Pronovo's like an hour though MRI machine. So like I'm claustrophobic. I can't do that.

Speaker B: Oh that. But you got, they put on these goggles. We can watch it. You can watch like I watched. I uh, watched a Netflix show. Awesome. The time went by so quick.

Speaker A: I just think. Didn't you feel like you were in a tube?

Speaker B: No, because I was just focused on the show. Just distracted my mind. Anyways, give it a try. If you get it from Anova, I'll wear my aura ring. Anyways, um, um, so I'm excited about that. And then I also, you know, listen, I really like when we get technologists to come into health care and I think the last five, 10 years we've seen a, you know, significant benefit from that. Right. There's of course there's been some failures that get headlines but like net net, I think you and I would agree been a huge net positive for our industry. And by the way, it's only going to get better with these fundamental foundational models and people who are familiar using them coming to healthcare. So I'm excited about what MID Journey is doing and pushing to think if it literally is the first whole body imaging advancement in the last 50 years. I'm all for it. Right. Um, I don't quite understand what the value prop is. Is it like less radiation? Is it better speed, is it better accuracy?

Speaker A: I think their, their pricing is, is supposedly going to be lower, so lower cost, faster and apparently just like a better scan. I mean there are lots of claims right now, so we'll see what the uh, the actual product ends up being. But I mean it's ambitious and like let's encourage ambitious founders to, to show up in health care, try their best, learn, be humble, um, and do cool things. This is like tech and hardware more so than it is like care delivery. So the expertise that they're bringing is, is super valuable. I posted on LinkedIn like the cranky old gu. Cranky about it. They're going to talk about all the reasons it's not going to work and cause unnecessary anxiety, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, but that is, you know, and I think that these are right concerns to be addressed. But like let's let them address them and still be excited about innovation. Yeah.

Speaker B: I do think by the way it is amazing that he's able to self fund this like wow, like what an entrepreneurial like accomplishment.

Speaker A: Sure the VCs are knocking on his,

Speaker B: I mean and but by the way if he's going to, if this is going to reach its full impact level, it's going to have to get FDA approval, it's going to have to be more institutionalized and if he can self fund that, this, this, this guy is a great American entrepreneur. But we'll see. I bet there are, there'll be VC funding in the future if this works. So cool story. I hope to see it uh, hope to see it in SF soon. All right, final story of the month. This is one that we talked about it. The AI doctor is in the house finally and their early results are in. We've talked about this Hale. It's, it's about Utah and uh, the state of Utah. Their sandbox allowing Doctronica company to actually provide AI powered prescription renewal for patients in Utah. Any adult can log in to get a refill for common prescription medications like cholesterol, antidepressants and doctronics AI chatbot can autonomously renew these prescriptions. There's over 200 medications that, that are, they're limited to that you can get refilled. And it isn't truly autonomous yet because uh, physician uh does a QA of the system. But uh, the what's cool. And it was actually this was highlighted in a Wall Street Journal article last week. So this story is getting prominence is that the state of Utah and I give them credit for doing this released early results about the Doctronics impact to what quite a lot of fanfare. Wall Street Journal article as evidence and what they found five months in it's early data to be fair was numbers were pretty interesting. The AI recommended renewal in 72% of cases and physicians who reviewed those same decisions agreed with it that it was the right call 91% of the time um, and 97% of the time when a second doctor weighed in on it in the other 28% of cases that um, didn't meet the autonomous refill by the ductronic uh system the ah AI flagged patients for a physician review uh instead there were no adverse events, um, no contraindicated prescriptions. So Doctronic CEO probably was pretty proud and he told Politico he believes uh AI and this is his quote is quote infinitely safer than a human doctor. So Holly, when you Hear these early numbers and kudos to Utah. I think we need more of this of like being transparent. Did this kind of move the needle for you?

Speaker A: What did you think it sounds like not safer, but as safe as a human doctor. So yes, I think the, the claim they can make is like infinitely cheaper than a human doctor.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: It doesn't have to be safer, it just has to be as safe. And if they had 97% like agreement with when two doctors weighed in, like that's, that's incredible. And will only continue to improve. Right. We say this all the time, but the AI we have today is the worst it's ever going to be. So we're only going to see that improve. Maybe it'll even actually become safer, infinitely safer than a human doctor. But really where this moves the needle for healthcare is that it is going to be infinitely cheaper. And that is super exciting.

Speaker B: Yeah. And by the way, to your point, not just cheaper, but because it's cheaper, it'll be way more scalable and in places where there's healthcare deserts. And by the way, it's not like easy to see a primary care doc even in Boston. Like it's just much more accessible. So that's, that's exciting too.

Speaker A: And helping. Yeah. Helping free up clinicians to work on more meaningful problems. I, I think is. And um, I'm sure there's some public health health economists wonk somewhere like trying to estimate the benefit of this and it will be really curious to see. I will say the data that they, they shared here I believe is from Doctronic. This still obviously needs like third party review, but uh, that is underway. You know, I think that we should all this is another thing to celebrate and we should really get the Doctronic CEO on the show.

Speaker B: We have a lot of people. I'll do that. I'll do it. But Halle, you know what.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That the doctors aren't happy about this. You know, we already talked about how the Utah medical license came out against it. And uh, there was this doctor in the Wall Street Journal article who said that it's, it sort of actually spoke. It was so, you know, Eric Larson talked about this infallibility trap that we hold technology to higher standard to your point than we do the doctors. And he said, well, it's a black box and humans have to go to medical school and pass license exams and go through residency to be doctors. And we have nothing like that at all for AI. You know, I think some of those critiques, we do need some governing Here we do need some regulation, um, because otherwise we're gonna have like 50 different states. We've talked about that one doesn't hold as much merit because I just think these technologies are going to get there. The one critique which uh, a um, Stanford law professor wrote in jama, that that held merit to me is that if you take the doctor out of the loop, out of the visit, like you may miss some things that a doctor might catch in sort of a fallout because then um, getting the prescription is another chance for a doctor to interact. I still don't think that the benefit of better access, but it was an interesting point.

Speaker A: I don't think. I think that these. I've had visits for renewals, medication renewals, and I am allowed to do those virtually versus having to go in which I do have to go in. I, to go in once a year for my prescriptions. But then if I have a six month prescription, I have to do another virtual thing. I will tell you there's, there's like three questions asked, I answer them and then we're off. Like nothing else really comes up. If I have another concern, I bring that up separately. So uh, that to me felt like a really. We're not replacing, yeah, we're not replacing the annual annual visit, which is like the bread and butter of primary care. We're taking like these checkbox appointments that are done for regulatory reasons and safety reasons and moving that to like an as effective but much cheaper, infinitely cheaper tool.

Speaker B: Well, hallelujah. I have my annual visit today actually, so wish me well. I'm doing the right preventative things from my health perspective. So, uh, anyways, this is a fun month. Lots of good stories, lots of diversity of stories, which is cool.

Speaker A: Yeah, happy uh, July, Happy summer. And uh, we will continue to get great guests on the show. We have some good episodes coming up. So thank you everyone for tuning in and listening. And Steve, happy five years.

Speaker B: That's the best. See uh, ya hope. Here's to another five. All right, bye.

Speaker C: Thanks for listening to the Heart of Healthcare. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to support the podcast, please leave a rating and review and don't forget to subscribe. The Heart of Healthcare is produced by Hallie Teko and hosted by Michael Esquivel, Steve Krause and Hallie Teko. The show is engineered, edited and mixed by Kyle Moore. Visit our website heartofhealthcarepodcast.com for show notes and details. Details.