The art of building confidence in others with Matt Heller

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: God, family, people, leadership. This is the Gifted Leader Podcast with Frank James. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Gifted Leader Podcast. I am your host, Frank James. And guys, listen, I know you have probably heard me say something similar to this, but today you all are in for a dynamic treat. My guest today, I have had the esteemed opportunity of meeting him in person. He is electric, he is dynamic, he is an incredible thought, thought provoking leadership coach, mentor, friend. He is all of those things. And I cannot wait, um, to introduce him to you all. But before that, um, welcome. If this is your first time joining, we started this podcast to help leaders become better leaders. And it is my belief in order to help people become better leaders, we must first help them become better people through the pillars of God, family, people, then leadership. Um, if you are returning, welcome back. Thank you so much for taking out the time in your day to listen to us. We only get 24 hours and the fact that you're taking some time to listen to us, we are grateful. So welcome aboard. All right, everybody. I kind of introduced him just a little bit, but I want to take the time to introduce Matt Heller. Matt Heller is the founder of Performance Optimist, uh, consulting, which he started in 2011 after being in the hospital. Hospitality, leadership and everything. Amusement parks for over 20 years. Um, his philosophy is simple. He wants to help leaders grow. He is an author of two incredible books. The are called the Myth of Employee Burnout and All Clear. And he is also the host of a podcast. Now, now, listen, if you are a podcaster and you know, like me, sometimes some podcasters don't listen to other podcasters, but I am a fan and the attraction pros podcast. I learn stuff every time I listen. Um, Matt is a person that walks the walk and talks the talk, and I'm grateful that he, um, accepted the invitation to be here today. So welcome. Matt. How are you, Frank?

Speaker A: I am great, and thank you for that wonderful introduction. It's giving me goosebumps to hear you talk so electrically about some of the things I've done, and I cannot wait to jump into this conversation with you. I think we're going to have a lot of fun.

Speaker B: Yes, we are. We absolutely are. All right, everybody, so the episode is going to go as normal. So we're going to start out with some good news the week. So for me, my good news for the week is I had the opportunity to talk to a fellow colleague who I actually also met at Ames on yesterday. And, um, I met up with him because he and I are about to do a project together. And in the middle of the conversation, he was like, frank, thank you so much for being confident enough to just get everybody who wasn't talking and just make them build relationships. Because that's what I did at Ames. I kind of saw people who were in the corner not talking, and I was just like, hi, my name's Frank. What's your name? What do you do? Like, let's talk. And we have, like, a little group. We still keep in contact over seven months later. And it was so just. It warmed my heart to hear him just acknowledge that, because it wasn't something that I thought about doing. I just did it. I was like, I want to get these people together that are not talking. So that was really great news for me for the week, and I loved hearing it. Um, and I'm going to have him on the podcast at a later date. But, yeah, I just wanted to share that. What about you, Matt? What good news do you have for the.

Speaker A: Well, is it wrong to say my good news is being on your podcast?

Speaker B: No, no, not at all.

Speaker A: Well, and maybe I'll have two, because this is absolutely a highlight for me. I'm super excited about this. I've been listening to your podcast, and I love how you start off with good news. And I think it's just such a great, positive way to start your day, your week, your month, whatever it is, to kind of remind yourself that there's good things happening. But I also wanted to share that, uh, the last few days, I've been at the Florida Attractions association conference in Ocala, Florida, and that is always such a opportunity to get together with industry professionals. It's so inspirational. It's like a family reunion. And I got a lot of, uh, great inspiration. I'll just use that word again. Uh, from that. From that conference and just being around people that love each other and love the industry, uh, it doesn't get any better than that.

Speaker B: I love it. I love that I saw your post and. And you know what, we'll talk about later in the episode, because I. I will tell you guys about how I actually officially met Matt later on in the episode. But, um, I. You do that, and I just love that anytime the people that I know and. And the people that come up on my LinkedIn, if it is something amusement park related at some point, your name is mentioned, there's a photo of you, and I just absolutely love that. So thank. Thank you so much for sharing your good news for the week. Um, all right, everybody, we're going to Dive right into our topic for today. So our topic for this episode is the art of building confidence in others. The art of building confidence in others. And, um, what I'd like to do before we even start giving content, I want to give context to what we're talking about. So my first question, Matt, is how do you define confidence?

Speaker A: That's a great question and a great place to start. I define confidence as the willingness to step outside of your comfort zone.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: So, so often there are times in our lives and professional lives and personal lives where there's something that's holding us back from maybe doing something we want to do. Obviously, we're in our comfort zone. And I think as leaders and as people, our comfort zone ideally grows over the years, right? And that that zone gets bigger, but there's still always something outside of that and being able to take that step and not necessarily know what's going to happen when you do that. I think that's confidence. Um, I think back to, I'm not a huge Star Trek fan, but my mom was. And when they say to boldly go where no one has gone before, that's what I think of when I think of confidence. Because, again, you don't necessarily have all the information. And you know this from a leadership perspective. You rarely have all of the information. You have to jump in and say, you know what? My experience to this point, my knowledge to this point, my education to this point is, is going to make things okay. And sometimes you have to ask the question, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? And, you know, if you're not going to hurt yourself or a family member or a team member, you know, you know you're not going to lose your job, then, you know, what other consequences are you. A lot of times it's just emotional, right? It's like, I'm just not comfortable doing that. And I have a fear around that. And we could go into a whole thing on fear, but that a lot of times is driving that. And so once you get over that, then you actually start asking the question, what's the best thing that can happen? And I think once you get into that mindset, then the confidence and the willingness to step outside your comfort zone, that's when the magic happens.

Speaker B: I love that definition because one of the things that I, um, try to shift people's perspective on is they, um, attach confidence with being an extrovert. And I always tell people, you don't have to be an extrovert to be confident. You just have to be willing to do something different and stand in it. So I love that that's your definition. Um, because I know a lot of incredibly confident introverted leaders who excel tremendously. Um, so I love that. So when. So when we're talking about, you know, having that willingness to step outside of your box and be uncomfortable and to do something different, what is one of the things, um, I know you mentioned fear for a second. What is one of the things that you think we, as human and leaders are truly afraid of? Do you think we're afraid of the success part? Do you think we're afraid of the failing part? Are we afraid of the unknown? Uh, what would you say? What do you think is kind of the catalyst behind that fear when it comes to just do something, be willing to do something different?

Speaker A: Well, I think you mentioned it. It's the fear of the unknown. And that could be tied to fear of success or fear of failure or fear. Fear of how that person is going to react. You know, you might send an email to someone and you, as a podcast host, you might reach out and say, hey, I'd love to have you as a guest. And if you don't know that person, you don't have a relationship, you don't know how they're going to react. They're going to say, frank, who? Or yes, I'd love to. Right. So you don't know how they're going to react. So there's that fear of not knowing what's going to happen. And I think that goes back to the definition of confidence. We don't know all the time what's going to happen. And when you are in a leadership position and you have people that are following you, sometimes you have to say, you know, we don't know what's going to happen, but it can't be that bad. You know what I mean? Or, yeah, it's going to be good. And so I'm going to set the stage or set the example, just like you mentioned. Go find people that, you know, might be a little bit more introverted and bring them into the group. You've got to be the one that says, we're going to go and we're going to make it happen. And I might be scared, but I've got the strength of all these people behind me that can help me take that step. So I think that, you know, the fear of the unknown is really one of those things that. That does drive us. And look, as people, we are emotional creatures, so we are driven by our emotions. And so that could be happy, that could be sad, that could be anger. You know, we talked a lot about this as we came out of COVID that people were in denial, you know, of things and going through the whole grief cycle. Uh, but when you, when you don't know what's going to happen, it's really hard to say, here's the step I'm going to take. On the other side of that. When we know what's going to happen, it's very easy to take that step because we've done it before and we know what the outcome is going to be, but it's when we don't know what that outcome is going to be. And it could be at any stage of leadership or life. That's when we say, I think I'd rather stay in my comfort zone. Which is. It's called a comfort zone for a reason, right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because we're comfortable. So we want to step out of that in order to grow and to develop.

Speaker B: So what I hear you saying is confidence is a very vulnerable situation. You have to be vulnerable. And you all know how I feel about vulnerability because I have had major success and major failures in being vulnerable. I've had great things happen, and I've had not so great things happen. But, uh, when I weigh the things that I have gained out of being vulnerable and how it has built my confidence, I wouldn't trade it for the world. I would do it over and over and over and over again. You know, even speaking about, um, this is a great place for me to insert this story. Um, I had the opportunity to go to Ames, which is a safety seminar for the amusement park industry. I went this January, and prior to that, I connected with Matt online, um, on LinkedIn. Um, again, electric. I was drawn to him immediately. I saw him, I saw his post and when he was teaching a class that I have so many notes on. And guys, listen, if he, I don't know if he offers this class somewhere else, but it's called Coach like a Boss and Boss Like a Coach. One of the most life changing experiences I've ever had in leadership. But anyway, Matt was in the front of his class and I was sitting there and I was thinking to myself, oh, my God, this is Matt Heller. Like, this is somebody who, uh, I've watched, I've seen his work. And then we locked eyes and he noticed me and he was like, wait, Frank James. And I'm like, who is he talking about me, Frank James. And in that moment, you have no idea that you were doing this but that was such a confidence booster for me because in this class full of hundreds of people that I don't even know, you validated who I was based off of, off of the personality and the content that you saw of me online. That was a huge moment for me from that I got so many people after that coming, wanting to connect with me. Like, what do you do? And how don't we know you? How long have you been in the industry? And it has just been incredible since then. So you are building confidence in leaders without even, like, that even being your thought, you know, so that's, that's just amazing.

Speaker A: Well, I appreciate you sharing that and I do remember that moment because, you know, whenever you see someone in person that you have interacted with online, to me it's a special moment, right? And, and I actually had one of those, uh, situations at the Florida Attractions association as well, where there was someone like, I know that person. Like, where do I know that person from? And we had interacted online. But you know, in that moment when, when I saw you, I was thinking about some of the videos of you that I've seen. And you know, you, you come on and you have such great insight and great advice for people. And you're so well spoken. And I think you, you, you do a really great job of being able to get your point across and, and tell a great story and be able to share such valuable information with people in a very short time that, like, it was, it was almost like I couldn't not acknowledge you. I know that was a double negative, but you know what I mean. When I saw you, I'm like, this is, this is someone I've seen online. And so I appreciate you sharing that. I guess simple gesture or just recognition did help build your confidence. And you already seem like a very confident person to me. Um, maybe it is your extrovertedness and I appreciate what you said about their. There can absolutely be introverted people that have a tremendous amount of confidence, but I see you as a little bit more extroverted. And, you know, your ability to kind of bring people into your orbit, I think is, is amazing. So thank you for sharing that. I loved, I loved meeting you in person.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, absolutely. It was amazing. And I think I love to share these moments because I want people to know. Yes, I'm a leadership coach, but I have a leadership coach and I'm still learning. And I agree with you. I am a fairly, I would say that I'm a fairly confident person. I think our cups need to be Filled up, you know, all the time, and the extra goes to everybody else. So I had to share that moment because it was amazing to me. So, uh, that was my moment. I want to talk about. When did you discover personally, your confidence in you? What was your journey? What was that? I don't know if it was an epiphany moment, if it was a gradual process. What did that look like for you and building. Building and. Or understanding the confidence that you have in you?

Speaker A: Well, I think it actually goes back to that word that you just use, which is a journey, right? It absolutely is a journey. If I would look back 20 or 30 years and think about where I was at that time, I think I had confidence in what I was doing, but that was a very small circle. Like, we talked about that kind of that comfort zone, right? That comfort zone is very small. You know, I think even back to when I started off as a ride operator, and it took me a while to build the confidence to interact with people. Like, at first I was like, okay, you know, come in. I'll count the people, I'll do my little spiel. I'll start the ride, and, you know, do all the things that you need to do. But, you know, it took a little while for that to then blossom into, now I'm joking with them, and now I'm having fun, and now I'm, you know, uh, making their experience better, I hope, than, you know, riding a ride. Now we're having this interaction, and that helped build the confidence. So I really feel like being in this industry and. And having to interact with so many people on a daily basis and, you know, sometimes them, you know, yelling at you and you having. Having to provide service, recovery and all the things that we do in the attractions industry. From a people interaction standpoint, I think that really started to build my confidence. If I look at things that I do as a trainer. I started off doing, uh, orientations at my very first park, which was Canobie Lake park in Salem, New Hampshire. And when we first started, we had a full script. I mean, it was word for word, and we had to memorize the script. And then over the years, you know, fewer and fewer people were involved. They either left the company or they, you know, had other interests or whatever. And it. It came down to myself and one other person. And over the years, we went from that script to an outline to sections, you know, and it was. It was, you know, over a couple years, we went from a script to saying, okay, you take this one, I'll take this One and we could just riff off each other and um, you know, provide, provide the content, but in a very confident way because we've been doing it for a while. And I think that also goes back to the concept of time. And when we think about our team members, understanding that their journey takes time. It takes time for them to build up confidence. And one of the things I know I talk to leaders a lot about is them not recognizing that time element to it. I was talking to somebody just the other day and he said, you know, I'm an enthusiast of the industry. He's been in the industry for 15 years or so. I'm an enthusiast of the industry and you know, I love what I do and I just wish that, you know, my frontline team members would have that same enthusiasm. And I said, well, how long did it take you to develop that enthusiasm? And he said, probably about three years. I said, okay, so is it fair for us to think a first year team member is going to have that same level of enthusiasm when they haven't been through as much as you have? And he says it's probably not fair to, to, you know, expect that. So I think just over time, all those little baby steps that I've taken over the years to um, start my own business, to do a different session, to present at ames, to present at iaapa, all those little experiences have, have opened up that comfort zone and opened up a little bit more confidence along the way to where I am now. I love what you say about continuing to learn because I feel like I'm still learning as well. I'm still building my confidence. There's still things that I want to do that I'm like, yeah, that's outside my comfort zone. But hopefully my previous experience of taking those baby steps will allow me to take further baby steps so that I can continue to expand that comfort zone.

Speaker B: I love it. And um, you know, I always tell one of the ways that I end all of my leadership coaching sessions is I always tell people, never stop being a student. The moment you stop being a student, you have captured growth. So I love that. So I want to, I want to dive into how do we as ah, leaders help to build that confidence in other leaders? What are some things that we can do? Because like the story that you just shared about whoever you were speaking with, I think sometimes in leadership we get to that place where we want this instant or immediate gratification. It's like, hey, you're a supervisor. I need you to be confident today. So what are some strategies or some ways that we can get people and help build that confidence in other leaders.

Speaker A: Well, I think, first of all, it has to do with us as leaders and our outlook and expectation. You know, just like you're talking about, if you have someone that you're trying to build their confidence, recognize that it's going to take time. Right. So. So set your expectations in a. In a realistic way. So I think that's first.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I think the other thing, again, as leaders that we need to do is recognize that there are things that we do that we've been doing for a long time that become second nature to us that are not second nature to other people. So when you think about interacting with a guest or, you know, just go up to the guest and say, you like their hat? Well, I've been doing that for 30 years, right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: For me to say that to a frontline team member, they're like, well, what if they don't like what I say? Or, you know, again, go back to the fear of the unknown. I don't know how they're going to react. So I think we have to recognize that as leaders, uh, in our teams. And then I think it's about providing opportunities for people to take those baby steps that I talked about and maybe even pushing them a little bit. You know, you don't want to push people too far. You don't want to push them over the cliff.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, but you do want to sometimes. Let me back up. Sometimes you see the potential in other people that they may not see in themselves. So in order for them to reach that potential, part of that process is, again, to take a little baby step. And so to me, that's about encouragement. So, Frank, I know you got this. You know, you want to start a podcast, do it, take the step. You might be bad at it for a while. I know when Josh and I talk about the Attraction Pros podcast, we're like, we were terrible at it for I don't know how many episodes.

Speaker B: We're.

Speaker A: We're hopefully getting better at it as we do this. But, you know, you're going to be bad at something, and it's okay to be bad at something. And I think that reassurance and encouragement really helps people see that I don't have to be great at something. I can take that baby step, be uncomfortable, be bad at something, but that's also going to lead to me eventually being better at it. And then. And then that, again, helps helps build confidence. And I think the other thing that I would say just on kind of this initial question about building confidence is allowing people to make mistakes. Because you said it earlier, you know, you, you had these experiences with vulnerability where it went well and it didn't go so well.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I would imagine you learned as much, if not more from those situations where it didn't go well than you did when you were successful. So allowing people that safe space to make a mistake and learn from it and then talk about it and then say, okay, what did you learn from that? Oh, I learned this and this and this. Okay, next time, uh, you know, and that's the other. That's the other part of the encouragement is next time, this is what we'll do differently. Okay. And now I feel better about that. So those are a couple of things, just kind of the, the overarching umbrella piece of building confidence.

Speaker B: So I want to pause here for a moment because you said something that. For me. Excuse me. For me, I see a lot of, um, leaders skip this step or skip or mishandle this step, and that is creating a safe place to fail. Um, I would like to submit to everybody that my confidence that I have now that I exude 90% of it came from places where I failed. It came from the moments where I said that didn't work. Let me identify why it didn't work. Let me reset, resolve this issue, and then let me try it again. That is where that confidence come in. And I know it sounds kind of weird that you can build confidence in failing, but it's true. You know, if, if, if it is a safe landing place for you to say, I messed this up or I didn't do this, Right. That is only going to create a conversation for us to communicate. You know, how did this go well? Or how didn't this, why didn't this go well? Where could we have pivoted? Where could we have changed? What are some, um, skills that you can give us to kind of have that conversation and making that failing space safe? What are some things that you can give us in order to, uh, on the back end help boost that confidence?

Speaker A: So I think it does go back to what you just said about the conversation that we have with people.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: And, and there's two questions that I like to ask, very simple questions after something, ah, after somebody experiences something, and it's what went well and what could be improved. Right? And so I think you get the. What went well? So that they're, they're recognizing that, hey, something did go well. Even this was a complete failure.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: In all aspects of measurement, there's something probably that they can take away that was a positive out of that. Maybe it was, hey, I survived.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Great, wonderful. Like, you go back to that question of what's the worst gonna happen? I didn't, you know, I'm not in the hospital, so. Good.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So what went well is. Is a great question, but then also, what can be improved? And what I find is that this is when people are starting to be more reflective of their own personal behavior or their own personal impact on that particular situation. You know, a lot of times when we talk about the person's impact, the. The word accountability comes up, right? And when you talk about accountability, it's really about, you know, um, taking responsibility for one's own actions. And so when you think about asking that question, what could have gone better? And they think, well, this is what I did. And I saw that that was not a positive outcome. That's the start of accountability. Because now they're starting to say, I'm responsible for the outcome here. I may have been part of the problem, but that also means I can be part of the solution. And so that means that next time, there's that next time piece again. Next time I'm going to do something different. Now, that something different may not get to 100% success. But if you're taking, uh, another baby step and you're a little outside your comfort zone and you're more successful than you were before, I think that's really, really important and really important for us to recognize as leaders. I think one of the other things that you were kind of referring to that I think leaders missed the step of is sometimes we look for, um, improvement in those big steps.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Those big milestones. Right. When really it happens in small, tiny little increments. And if we're not there to encourage and identify and even solidify for that person. No, you took a step, you made a great, um, stride. Even though it feels small when we're there to encourage that, that's when they start to build the confidence. And then they have the confidence and the willingness to take the next step and the next step. Uh, then when you look back and you say, this is what you accomplished over a full year period, then it's a big milestone. But those daily and hourly actions, they seem very small, but they do add up.

Speaker B: Yeah. I would like to say that recognition, both positive recognition, positive recognition and directive practice with that next time, it goes farther than we can imagine because, um, this is something else that we learned that specific positive feedback and Then directive practice, this specific thing went well. Next time, do this. Ever since I have, um, incorporated that in how I communicate, number one, people receive what I'm saying a little bit easier. Sometimes the conversation is not going to be great, guys. Sometimes things happen and it's just not a great conversation. Like, let me just tell you that not all conversations are great. So I hope that we're not painting this roses picture. Uh, but what I am saying is if you are very intentional about being specific about what's positive and then specific about the directive practice and that recognition, people can receive it better. And I have, you know, experienced this even recently. You know, we had, um, our audit that we get. You guys know I'm in the amusements industry, and our overall score was a high pass, which is the highest score you can get. The park that I'm at, they hadn't gotten this score before, and it was a big deal. But there were still opportunities, even with that high pass that we had, that things could have gone awry. So when I was speaking to my team about, hey, these things went great, next time, let's change this. That conversation shifted. Um, and I was just like, I remember in the past this conversation would have went a completely different way. So even in that, it has taught me how to kind of build my confidence in having these things that we identify as tough conversations. As far as I'm concerned, all conversations are tough because you're trying to get one person and communicate with somebody else, and you're trying to get it going on. But. But that happens a lot. Here's my next question. Um, when it comes to confidence, if you have a leader who you. You see this potential and you see this thing, and you are trying to give that recognition and you're trying to give them this feedback, but it just seems like it's not landing. At what point do you pivot? What? Or, uh, how do you check? What is it that leaders should do when it's just like, hey, this is not working, what should we do?

Speaker A: So I think it depends on what you've tried, uh, to that point. Like, if you've tried the same thing, but you've done it over and over again, then maybe try something different. You know, it's kind of that definition of insanity. Like, you're doing the same thing, but you're expecting a different result. Like, if what you're doing isn't landing, then look at what you're doing first. Right? Maybe there's a different approach. Maybe it's a different person on the team. That would get over with that person better. Maybe. Maybe. Let's say, Frank, you and I are leaders at an amusement park and we're peers. And I've got a team member that I'm just not getting through to. And, you know, you and I have a conversation, I say, maybe, Frank, maybe you can get through to them. So maybe there's somebody else on the team that can explain something, maybe just in a different way, or maybe that team member has a. Has some problem with me. Right. Maybe there's some underlying issue that they're not. They're not really listening to what I have to say. So that could be part of it, you know, getting somebody else to help with that. But I also think there's lots of different ways to get that person to personally reflect. And so I think one of the things that I try to do is ask more questions than telling people.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um, I also talk in that. In that course that you mentioned about connecting the dots, which I think is the coach's superpower.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: To be able to connect the dots. And so when you are coaching someone and you're trying to get them to kind of see where you're coming from, a lot of times it helps to just say, well, I heard you say this over here, and then you said this over here. To me, those two things don't line up. Tell me more about what you mean. And just by getting them talking about those things, at least this has been my experience, you get people to start realizing, oh, well, maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought I was, or maybe I wasn't approaching this in quite the right way. I think when you get people into leadership roles and people in. In that part of their journey as a human being, a lot of times all they need to do is reflect on themselves to be able to see what that. What the, uh. What. What the misstep was that they took or that they. They are not on the right path. And so we have to figure out how to. How to get there. There's also, of course, that point, and this is going to be different for everybody where we say, maybe this person just isn't a right fit for this particular department, for this particular organization. I know I've had people that I've worked with over the years that, you know, they were struggling. Struggling in one particular department, and then you actually get them talking and they're like, yeah, I'd really rather be in that department. And they just, you know, took a job to get their foot in the door. And then you you get them, you know, transferred over to another department and they, they blossom, they flourish, and they are, uh, amazing. So I think there's, there's so many different avenues that you can take. I think you just have to be creative and be open minded and ask them, ask them, say, hey, you know, we've been talking about this for a while. I've noticed that we're still kind of doing the same thing. We're talking about the same thing. Maybe there's something I'm missing. So asking more questions, I think is kind of bottom line. What, what I tend to go back to.

Speaker B: I just want to share with y' all this connecting the dots, um, example thing that we learned. It was so dynamic and it taught me I'm a talker, um, obviously you guys know me. If you listen to the podcast, I'm the host of a podcast, I'm a talker. And sometimes one of the opportunities that I find myself having is sometimes I get into these moments and I feel like I turn into Charlie Brown and I'm just talking, talking, talking, talking, talking, talking, talking. And I realize, Frank, you haven't asked a question, you haven't paused to see check for understanding. You have not taken a moment to hear their perspective. You're just talking. And as a leader now, because I'm very conscious of that, the power of connecting dots and asking questions, it has changed the trajectory of all of my conversations because now I sit back and I just ask questions and those questions prompt them to give me the real story. And I believe that even in that, prompting them to give me the real story, even that is helping them to build their confidence to speak, to understand that you can share your true thoughts, your true feelings with me without repercussion. And then we go back to our vulnerability. So we're building confidence, we're being vulnerable and we're all by just asking questions and connecting the dots. I'm telling you because the, the you said this over here, but you also said this over here. That's not landing for me. Can you tell me a little bit more that I'm it. It is so simple, yet super, super, super impactful. And it's a skill that I, you know, all of my clients, I tell them when you enter a meeting, especially like one on ones, especially the place where that, that we have deemed the confidence building places, you have to do more listening than speaking. Because if you are doing the majority, if you are even doing 50% of the speaking, the conversation is not going well. So you gotta just ask the Question, hear their thoughts and collect. Here is. This is the last question, um, that I want to end with, because this conversation is great, and I just feel like we can go in so many different directions. Here is. Here is where I want to land. Confidence is something that you gain through going through a journey, through experiencing things, through. You know, there's a myriad of things where confidence comes from. When you are encountering a person, and specifically a leader who is lacking confidence and who has shown you that they have the skill set. They have the skill set, they have the personality, but the confidence is completely stifling their growth. What do you do with them? How do you get them to understand? Because I think sometimes it's just uncovering the confidence. I feel like it's there, sometimes it's uncovering, how do you get them to that place where they understand I can do this.

Speaker A: It's a great question. I'm glad you brought up someone that has the skill set, because that's one of the things I talk a lot about in terms of coaching. It's. It's really the confidence plus the competence over time.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: That's what you're trying to build. You're trying to build confidence and competence over a period of time. So, again, I'm glad that you brought this up, because I think we see this a lot, people that have certain skills, but they may not be ready and willing to take that step to actually show people that they have those skills. So I think it comes back to encouragement. I think it comes back to, um, setting the example and even sharing our own journeys. You know, you've shared some of your journey on here. You know, I certainly have things in my life that didn't go well. And I think sometimes sharing, especially when, when people look at you like people look at Frank and say, he's got a podcast, he's a successful leader, he's doing all these things. There's no way that he ever had any kind of, um, you know, non winning in his life. But you're like, yeah, there's been a lot, uh, yeah, yeah, and same here. And so when we tell those stories and we open up and we're vulnerable and they see, oh, this person who I see as successful now was in my shoes or in the same place that I am a couple of years ago, then I, I see that there's hope, I see that there is a path forward, and then it's just encouraging them. And I think also really observing what they do and where those opportunities are for you to have a conversation to say. Let's. Let's say you're in a meeting, right? And, uh, you're watching people as they're contributing, and you're talking about something. And again, let's say you and I are, um, in the meeting and on the same team, and. And there was something that I really wanted to say. And you come up to me afterwards and say, matt, I noticed that there was something you wanted to say in that meeting. What was it?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Okay. Next time. This is a great opportunity for you to say it. If you're the meeting leader and you see someone that is, like, you know, kind of chomping at the bit to say something, but they don't. I'd call on.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Frank, looks like you want to say something. What was that? And then you almost again, that. That little bit of a force to. To step outside their comfort zone. And then again, you can have the conversation afterwards. You, uh, know, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for speaking up. How do you think it went? You know, all those little things that can help build the confidence, and also showing people that you believe in them, I think is incredibly powerful. So when you say to someone, hey, I've seen you do this. I've seen you, um, you know, have such a great influence, a positive influence on your team, I know you can have that same influence on your peers. Right. Because that's a very different relationship.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: There was one gentleman I was. I was working with that, um, he talked about kind of not having that confidence with his. With his professional team, but he coaches basketball. And he says, when I'm on the basketball court, you know, I'm in charge and this is what I do, and blah, blah, blah. And I said, so how do we bring out the basketball coach in the workplace?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And again, it's about connecting dots. And he's like, well, let me think. And then we got into the. The deeper conversation of what he's not confident about in the workplace and how he knows his basketball teammates really, really well, but he doesn't know his. His, you know, a lot of his teammates as well as that. So, you know, one of our takeaways from that is get to know your team members better, you know, at work. So you're giving them those little baby steps and then following up and encouraging. How did that go?

Speaker B: What.

Speaker A: What did you do? How did you make that better? You know, what can you do better next time? How did it feel when you did that? Again, we're emotional creatures. So did it feel good to do that? Oh, yeah, it Felt really great to be able to make that connection. Wonderful. Let's keep doing it. So it was kind of a long answer to your question, but there's a lot of little things that we can do to help that person.

Speaker B: So confidence, everybody. It's very nuanced. It is not a one size fit all. It is a bring your story, bring your experience, and let's navigate that individually. And when you are trying to and you're hopeful with that, that, um, you're encountering and interacting with somebody else and you see that they have the skill and the will, try everything you can to build that confidence. And don't judge it because I think a lot of times something that stops us from being confident or to moving in confidence is we judge our thoughts, we judge what we're going to say. Just lean into it and do it and watch how you just help others build that confidence. All right, Matt, thank you so, so, so much. Um, I have so many notes over here. Again, another page full of notes that I've learned. And I can tell this is something that you are incredibly passionate about because you do it, uh, from my vantage point, you do it both, um, where people can see it and unintentionally. Um, and I think that that is such a hidden superpower to have. And I'm so grateful that you are who you are and I've met you and you do what you do. I just think you're such a mentor from afar and I just love that you're here and that we're talking about confidence because it truly is something else that I am passionate about. And I want to see confident leaders. You know, even though leaders who are not confident keeps me in business being a leadership coach, I still want to see confident, competent leaders. So thank you so much. Um, I want to end that by what do you have going on for you? What do you want to share with people? How can people link up with you? How can they reach out to you? Tell us all things. Matt Heller.

Speaker A: Well, thank you very much. And, and before I do that, I want to thank you for this opportunity. It's always great to talk to someone who's like minded. We, we understand each other. I think if we talked more, we could even challenge each other, which I think would be super fun as well. Um, I just love to know more about what you're doing, but thank you for allowing me to be on here today. And if people want to know more about what I do, probably PerformanceOptimist.com is my website and that's probably the best place to get, um, information about what I do. There's links to my books there. There's also something there I'm super proud of, which is a new endeavor, and it's called POC University. And there's a link to that as well. And I finally kind of gotten a lot of my resources that I've been sharing over the years. Podcast articles, videos, courses, you know, all that kind of stuff. Finally putting it in one place, uh, under. Under POC University. Um, and this is all. There's also different tiers for it. So there's people. If you want to get more involved. There's. There's ways to have coaching, there's ways to get involved with the community, or if you just want to do it on your own, there's lots of resources there to help build your leadership confidence and competence. So I would encourage people to check out performanceoptimist.com and then the links at the top will take you to the POC University. And also something I know you're also involved in, which is the All Clear group on Facebook, which is a free group. There's almost 1,000 members in there and people that love to share different, um, leadership tips and, and ask questions and get to know each other. So it's another great place to kind of go and be part of the community.

Speaker B: Awesome. I will have all of Matt's information, his website and all of that stuff. Attraction Pros, podcast, the books. I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below. If you have any questions for Matt, um, you can ask those directly to him by going to his website, or you can send them to me, the giftedleaderfjmail.com and I will send those over. I will most certainly have Matt back again, because for me, this was. I always get refreshed. Uh, I do. My podcast, for the most part, is solo, and I just talk for 30 minutes. Um, but every time I have a guest, I leave recharged and refueled, and I know for sure I'm going to have you back. There's. There's so many things going on in the attractions industry right now. Um, and it's just going to be amazing. So I will definitely have Matt back if he's willing to come back. Um, and it's just going to be amazing. So thanks again so much for being here. All right, leaders, that is it for today. Like we say on this episode and every episode, now go and be gifted. Have an incredible week. I'll talk to you guys soon. Sam,