484. AMMA - Why Being Liked Is Holding Your Firm Back

Speaker A: If I'm right, then I don't care to tell any people that I'm right. I just win, baby. It doesn't matter if I'm wrong. I'm the first person to say that I'm wrong. When we succeed, I give the team the credit. And when we fail, I take the blame.

Speaker B: I'm Michael Mogul, founder and CEO of Crisp, the nation's number one law firm growth company. I've built my business through practice, not theory. Krisp started with just $500 to my name and has grown to over eight figures in revenue over the last few years, earning a spot on the Inc. 500 list of the fastest growing private companies in America. Our approach has been to take everything we've learned about generating massive growth within our own organization and help the country's most ambitious and committed law firm owners do the same for theirs. In each episode of this podcast, I sit down with innovative market leaders from the legal industry and beyond to learn from those who thrive in the face of adversity and challenge the status quo and define what it means to be

Speaker A: a true game changer.

Speaker C: This is Jessica, head of coaching strategy at Crisp, and today we're flipping the script for another special edition episode to get Michael's take on determining whether team discomfort is a sign of flawed leadership or simply the cost of driving results, what to do when a key strategic decision leaves leadership team members feeling frustrated, and how to address the bad guy stigma when one partner handles accountability while another focuses on culture.

Speaker A: There's a difference between trying to buy someone's love and trying to help make someone successful. I am of the belief that I would rather help somebody be more successful and actually achieve their goals and even if they dislike me through that process.

Speaker C: That's coming up on the Game Changing Attorney podcast. Here we go.

Speaker A: Yet another back for another amma. This is exciting because we're recording this in advance of when this will air, so it's going to be interesting to see. Um, well, number one, who's going to win the World cup at the time of this recording, we don't know yet. So that's going to be exciting to see what happens, maybe what the world will look like. What's going to be going on? Like, who knows, right? But for the sake of this podcast, it actually does not matter because these questions have nothing to do with what day it is. And I will say that just as an observation, we were talking about it this morning. Speaking of the World Cup, I, uh, had the opportunity, uh, my, my dad, my brother and I Like, we all went to a match earlier this month and it was just, it was fascinating, like, just fascinating to see number one amazing, amazing experience live. So if, if, you know, if you're listening to this, you had an opportunity to do that and go to any of these World cup matches taking, uh, place around the U.S. you know exactly what I'm talking about. That is an awesome, awesome sport to seeing live. Some, some sports. It's like you almost rather watch it at home. Um, dare I say, to some extent, like F1. Um, we've been to F1. It's a cool experience. But if the goal is to actually watch the race, it's a little bit tricky because the cars fly by depending where you're at, right? And then you're going like, we were in the paddock club. You go inside and you're. When you're watching the race. But watching the FIFA World cup live was absolutely amazing. And I was struck by the fact of how many people, like, when we were there, this was for the Argentina Egypt match. And just it was probably like 90% of, of Mercedes Benz Stadium, or as they call it, Atlanta Stadium, right during the World cup was, uh, Argentina fans. And they all wear. Not all of them, but like, I'd say of. Of 90% that were in that stadium, maybe like 75% were wearing messy jerseys. Obviously, like, Messi's incredible. Like just an incredible, incredible player. You, you kind of like, watch him. Just, just phenomenal. But I, you know, I turned over to my, um, my brother and I was like, man, I, I don't know that I can get behind. This is going to sound like a bit of a hot take, but just wearing another man's name on my back, like, it's just. This is odd, right? Like, um, I don't know, like, I, I don't think there's anything wrong with, with rooting for someone or being a fan, but, like, what about rooting for yourself? Uh, so I thought that was interesting.

Speaker C: I must know. What did your brother say?

Speaker A: I mean, he was just like, yeah. Um, but then the other thing was it just the amount of passion that you see from the fans and if, depending on what side you're on when you're watching this, like, the amount of just emotion that, that you bring. And of course it's like, you know, your country is on display. Like, you know, but. But it just got me thinking in the sense that if your team loses, I've seen just watching some of these matches, people in tears, like, in tears, and you could tell that not just was their day ruined. I mean, it could have been their week and maybe even their month. And. And that I find really interesting. Right. And. And I think about that a lot in the sense of, like, people, they. They're so vested in something that they do not control, and yet they, uh, allow those outcomes to influence how they feel and ultimately how, you know, how their day or week or month goes. I think that is silly. Again, again, this is not to say that, like, I. I don't follow sports. I mean, there's. There's teams that I like, there's players that I like. I mean, across a full gamut. But if my team doesn't win and you can even get into, like, college football, you can talk about the NFL, you can talk about F1, whatever, right? It's a little disappointing.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: But I think it is silly to have that impact the rest of your day. And the reason why I feel that is silly is because you do not control what that team does or what that player does. Like, you know, obviously a big fan of Georgia football, but if Georgia football loses a game, I look to you and say, well, I don't throw the passes, I don't catch the passes, I don't run the ball. I don't, you know, choose what the plays are. I'm just here as a passive observer, and I'm here and I'm enjoying the experience. And if they lose, yeah, it's unfortunate, but now it's time to go about the rest of the day.

Speaker C: Only if it's a day game, though. Night game. We're asleep.

Speaker A: Night game. Yeah. It's like, okay, this might not even make it the whole. No, but it got me thinking in terms of, like, just relating that back to, uh, in leadership, in business, in life. And what is maturity, really? And maturity, I believe, is your ability to get back to baseline after disappointment and the amount of time that takes you. The longer that takes you, the less mature you are, and the shorter that takes you, probably the more mature you are. So there's people that are still upset, right, probably even at the time of this podcast, over, uh, a game that their team had lost. There's some people still in Atlanta that are holding on to 28 to 3.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And that was, obviously, that was unfortunate. But I prefer to get upset about the things that I can influence as opposed to the things that I do not control. And there's an exercise that I do, I've done it for years, where anytime I find myself in, like, just this state of just lacking clarity, or uncertainty, or I'm dealing with, like, uh, I'm juggling a lot of different challenges and issues. I take a sheet of paper, I draw a line across the middle, and I write down on the left side, here's all the different challenges or barriers, obstacles, stressors that I have in my life, decisions I need to make, uh, whatever. Just. I write it all out. And on the right side, I write, well, what can I do directly to influence this? And sometimes for a lot of these scenarios, it's nothing. So when I see that and say, well, if I cannot influence this, then I can't really get too bothered by it because it's outside of my control. And then if I can influence it, like, that's awesome. Right now I can be very much, you know, uh, proactive in terms of what I can do. But. But again, I think it's just. I'm not knocking people that bring passion. But maybe I am. I mean, maybe to some extent, I look at it and say, like, you are getting very, very upset and allowing this to affect other aspects of your life when you can do absolutely nothing about it.

Speaker C: It's like, redirect that energy to something productive.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I've seen people where their team loses and they're like. They're. They drink themselves stupid, and now they're like, they're in a bad mood for the rest of the day. Nobody wants to be around them. And I'm like, that person. Right. Does a very poor job. Emotional regulation.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: It's just so silly. Like, usually these people, that's all they have. Right. Like, uh, we were actually talking about this on our drive over, and we're like, some of these people, like, especially in college football, they didn't go to that school. Right. But they've been, you know, big fans of that school, and maybe the rest of their life is shit. Like, it just sucks, and they feel powerless. So this team gives them this bit of joy and something to look forward to. And when that team does not perform, they feel, like, just completely betrayed. And it just. It's horrible. But that just means that, like, there's nothing else in their life that they have to look forward to.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I think it's just something to think about. I found that interesting at the very least. When I see people in tears, I think it's odd to be in tears about something outside of your control. But I do empathize with it. I do, uh. I do understand it. Right. Especially if it's been, like, years your team hasn't been to the World cup, for example. Now you're there and now you're going the distance. It brings you so much joy to bring, like, your family and friends along. Like, you love that experience, and that experience is coming to an end. Maybe that's what it is in terms of, okay, now this ends and now I gotta wait, you know, I gotta go back to work. I gotta go back to reality. Right. Maybe that's what they're upset about. But, you know, don't cry for me, Argentina. You know, that's all I can say on that note. Yeah, let's do the questions here. Let's do the amma. You guys submit the questions, you text us at 404-531-7691. We answer them here on the show. We do three types of, uh, podcasts on this podcast. And there's the traditional interview format. We bring on a guest from the legal industry and beyond, typically beyond. And we asked them all sorts of questions. We've had a great season so far. I'm excited for the guests that we have coming up as well. We've got the encore editions where we bring back some of our most popular episodes, and then we've got the ammas. This is what you're listening to right now, our most popular segment. You guys submit questions, could be about any topic pretty much. Uh, and we will answer them on the show. The other thing I will add is that if you get any sort of value from this episode or any other episode, all that we ask, you know, we don't run any ads, we don't have any sponsors. We keep podcasts broad, unfiltered, so our guests can say whatever they want. But if you do get any sort of value, meaning if we make you laugh, make you cry, make you think, all you got to do, please, please, please, uh, go online and you can go to Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave us a five star review. This helps us get better guests on the show, helps us reach more people and more leaders like yourself. So, Jessica, with that, what do we have for this week?

Speaker C: All right, question number one. Hey, Michael. We recently did an anonymous team survey, and while the results were mostly positive, there was a consistent thread that surprised me. Several people described my leadership style as intimidating and said they feel like they're always walking on eggshells around me. I push hard. I have my standards, and I don't apologize for either of those things. But I also don't think of myself as someone who makes people uncomfortable. My HR person thinks I need to soften My approach, my gut says if I do that, I'll lose the thing that makes this place run. Is there a version of this feedback I should actually be worried about, or is some degree of this just the cost of leading effectively?

Speaker A: Well, you did an anonymous survey, so people can say whatever they want. Honestly, you're probably going to get more, more candid feedback, more truthful feedback, because people aren't worried about the repercussions when they, you know, submit anonymous feedback. So I would say in terms of this type of behavior, where if people comment that they're walking on eggshells around you, it really just comes down to whether you believe that you want that in your organization or not. And if you want it, like, if you don't mind it and you're successful and the organization is growing and things are going great, then that, that's fine. I mean, your culture is your culture. You don't have to be Ben and Jerry's, right? Like, you can ultimately define your culture for your firm. And if that type of behavior is acceptable to you, then you don't really have to change anything. Alternatively, if you prefer that people are not walking on eggshells around you, and perhaps you feel that you could be missing, um, out on potential feedback opportunities to improve, there might be blind spots that you don't want to have, and you feel that, you know, if people don' they're in a state of, like, safety around you or don't feel that they're able to deliver the feedback that's necessary, that that could be a competitive disadvantage, which I believe it is. Uh, then perhaps you do have to change your approach and behavior in some way. So I think it just really comes down to, do you believe that this behavior, um, that you're seeing from your team is productive or unproductive? And I think that a lot of it is sometimes setting aside ego instead of saying, well, I am the way I am. I am what I am. Is that Popeye? I am what I am.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: So you could be one of these people and you could just say, well, they're just going to respond the way they respond, and you know they're wrong. I'm right. Okay. Um, and look, if your feedback loop that you, as a result of that type of thinking is leading to increased success, then you're entitled to field exactly the way you want. I just look at it from the standpoint of, like, if we can put our feelings aside and do what is most productive. Speaking of maturity, I think that is the way to be able to grow an organization.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It's less about how do I feel and more about what is going to be the most productive way forward for the organization. And, um, we've had this happen with me as well over the years. So it's like, uh, in many respects, I feel like I'm preaching to the choir in the sense that you can have. I wouldn't necessarily equate having high standards with being a jerk. Right. I think you have to separate the two things. You can have high standards but still be kind. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean you are mean in some way. So I don't love it when people walk on eggshells because I want to know what's going on on the ground. And I think as a leader, the goal should be how do I get as close to the truth as possible. Because the worst thing that can happen, especially as your organization grows and you have more complexity, is that you're having a bunch of yes men and women around you. Um, you don't know what the truth is on the ground level and you're having to sift through it and you're making decisions in a very opaque way. So I really think, like, to some extent, a large part of leadership is just getting to what is true. Yeah, like, what do we know to be true? And you can't get to that if people are walking on eggshells. So I would find ways to perhaps be more approachable. I think you've probably already taken a step in the right direction of having the survey just so you can even receive the feedback. But then perhaps if you don't know what to do next, why not put it back to your team and say, hey, anonymous survey number two. I hear that, you know, you guys are walking on eggshells around me. This is not what I want in the organization. I want us to be able to have a collaborative environment where people feel comfortable speaking up and sharing what they know. And I want us to. To lead productively, and I want us to do the things that are seeing. Like, I want us to solve the things that are perhaps barriers. You know, I want us to stop the things we should stop doing. Start things we should start doing. But I want to know from you guys what I can do to be better.

Speaker C: The thing I want to add to that is you still have to be authentic to yourself. So I've also seen this in organizations where, yes, we take the feedback, we own the feedback, we adjust, but don't overcorrect to a place where it's not even you anymore. Uh, because that is also detrimental. Because then when the real authentic you comes out now, they're like, this is not what I signed up for.

Speaker A: I agree with you. I think there's also a difference between, hey, I want your feedback, and then that doesn't necessarily mean that's what we're going to do.

Speaker C: Correct?

Speaker A: Because let's be clear. And this is a. This is a podcast for business leaders. You are receiving feedback from somebody who does not have the full context of the entire organization the way you would. And at the same time, they are not taking the risk of decision making that, like, they don't have to ensure the organization stays competitive. They don't have to ensure that payroll gets hit every single pay period. Right. So at the end of the day, they're not responsible for other people. So a lot of times the feedback you'll get comes from someone saying, well, this is what will make me happier, or, this is what will make me more comfortable. But it doesn't necessarily always come from a place of, like, this is what's going to make the business more competitive.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Sometimes it does. And that's why I would actually advocate for, like, not anonymous feedback. Because then, you know, like, who is this coming from? Is this coming from, like, the accountable person who is always, uh, like, you know, takes ownership and is results driven, or is this coming from the person that whines and complains? You know, there's a big difference, I think, as you grow up and become an adult. So as a child to an adult, I think one of the big realizations that you make is sometimes pointing out what's wrong is not the same as doing something about it. So sometimes I think people believe that if I point out what's wrong, that's helping. But as you become an adult, you realize that, no, that's not helping. Helping is doing.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: And helping is solving. It's not saying, oh, they're like, uh, there's trash. There's trash on the floor. It's picking up the trash. So I think this starts to answer and we kind of go in a different direction here with, you know, perhaps a different question than this person's asking. But again, I would just come back to the fact that you're going to endorse what you tolerate. And if you don't want to have people walking on eggshells around you, then I think you want to be. Become more approachable and find ways really just get to the root of why people are doing that. So it starts with asking More questions, maybe doing some one on ones, you know, go from there.

Speaker C: Question number two, Michael. About a year ago, I made the call to stop taking low value property damage cases entirely. They had been a staple of our firm for years and were generating consistent volume. My leadership team was strongly against it. They thought I was walking away from reliable revenue and taking on too much risk at a time when we were already pushing hard on growth. I tried to do all the right things and I heard them out, we discussed, but I strongly disagreed and we went ahead anyway. Several months later, our average case value has grown significantly and we're attracting exactly the type of higher value client I always wanted. But a few of my leaders are still clearly frustrated about the call I made. I'd make the same call again without hesitating, but I'm wondering what I should have done differently to avoid this awkwardness. What would you have done?

Speaker A: You may or may not like my answer. And this is the amma, so it's not even to say that my answer is the right answer. You're just asking what I would have done. I would have done whatever the hell I wanted to do that I felt was in the best interest of the organization. Right. And, but here's the, here's the part about that when you look ahead months later, if I'm right, then I don't care to tell any people that I'm right. I just win, baby. It doesn't matter if I'm wrong. I'm, um, the first person to say that I'm wrong. So it's basically, it's like when we succeed, I give the team the credit and when we fail, I take, you know, I take the blame.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I, I think it's kind of silly for a leadership team to hold that, harbor any resentment when the organization's winning. Let's just win. I don't care if we're winning. You know, up, down, left, right, diagonal. However it is, I think we should be able to put that to the side. But I think, uh, if you want the, the, I think, I don't know, perhaps the executive answer, you could have gotten more of their buy in. And you know, understanding that we don't have to always agree, but we have to align. And you could explain more of like what that decision was so they don't feel like that they have zero input whatsoever. But let's be honest, if it's your business and you have a hundred percent of the equity in said business, that you will ultimately have the final say. And perhaps, you know, I Don't know. Like that can make people uncomfortable, but it also means that you bear all the risk and the responsibility if the organization is not successful. So having lies the crown in many respects. I don't know. I mean, I'm hearing your side of it, I'm not hearing your leadership team side of it. But I, I don't know. I'm not as, I'm not as bothered perhaps at all or as concerned about having 100 consensus. I just, I think that's a very slow way to do things. It was funny, I was speaking to a firm owner the other day and they said that we make decisions unanimously across the eight partners. And I said, oh, it sounds like you don't make a whole lot of decisions. And he's like, hm, you know what, you're right. Right. Because you get like what, eight people to agree on everything that have like different values and motivations and like just perspectives. I mean, yeah, like, it's just, yeah, like one person wants to play golf all day. One person wants to grow the practice, one person wants to grow the trial side. One person wants to market the, you know, it's just, you know, how do you get eight people to agree on everything? Right. So there's going to be things that one person may disagree with and that will prevent the firm from making any sort of progress. Not to mention, you think about all the friction necessary like uh, that really comes as a result of that type of decision making. We got to get eight people up to speed at the same time in the same place and then make a decision and make a call and hope that everybody wants to move in a certain direction. If one person's voice is concerned, we're just not going to do it. That sounds like a very slow way to, uh, to run a business. So I'm a big fan of like a benevolent dictatorship in the sense that we want to have a clear North Star behind our decision making. You know, you want to be able to approach things from a, I think a position of, you know, a fact finding and getting down to the truth and making data driven decisions. But ultimately somebody has to make the call and we have to move forward. And sometimes we're going to be right and sometimes we're going to be wrong, but we're going to make decisions. And then if we make the wrong decisions, hey, it's on me. The best part is if I make a call and we are wrong, like it costs me money and you get to blame me and you get to tell your spouse, oh, uh, what you Know what a fool that guy is. Right? And, like, I was right and Michael was wrong. And it's like, you get to have your moment, but the, you know, but the reality of it is, I think that's a very immature way of thinking, because at the end of the day, as a team, the main thing we should be focusing on is just making progress. I think leaders need to get past this whole, like, I'm right, you're wrong 100%. To me, that is such a silly, silly perspective. Like, and I would, you know, put this back to you. Would you be willing to be wrong every single time if it also meant that you'd be more successful every single time if that led to a better organization, more effective, more profitable, probably financial freedom for you? But you're wrong every single time. Or would you rather be right every single time? Uh, and stay in place?

Speaker C: The only thing I was really thinking is, I mean, I echo everything you're saying, but we have a firm belief here of, like, disagree but commit.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: And I think that's a lesson or a conversation that you need to have with your leadership team in this case of, we may not all be on the same page, but we're all committing and we're a united front to the rest of the company and the rest of the team. Like, I can think of an example right now. It was this year, even I strongly disagreed with something, but I was like, we're going to move forward, and that is what it is, and we're not going to talk about it. If it works, great. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But let's all just make forward progress.

Speaker A: That should be. That should always be the North Star of, um. Are we moving closer to the direction that we want to go in terms of achieving the things we want to achieve or not?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: None of this like, who? I'm right, you're wrong. I don't know. It just seems childish.

Speaker C: Okay, to close us out today with question number three. Hi, Michael. I want to ask you something I've never really said out loud. I think my team likes my business partner much more than they like me. He's warmer, more approachable, remembers everyone's birthdays, and is genuinely great at making people feel good about coming to work. I feel like my role is seen as the one always pushing people for more and asking the uncomfortable questions. I wouldn't change who I am, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me a little that I'm sometimes seen as the bad guy. I know my approach works and is needed. I'm just not sure my team does. Does it matter, or do I just need to let this go? What's that word? Insouciance?

Speaker A: This person sounds like Wreck It Ralph.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker A: It's like, I'm not a bad guy. I'm just a bad guy.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: It's a great movie.

Speaker C: So many references today.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, look, be you and be authentic. Like, there's gonna be, you know, sometimes there's gonna be somebody who's like, beloved and hands out the hugs, and then there's another person who cracks the whip. And if you are authentic to yourself, that's fine. Like, I don't. I don't know why people are so, like. It just is. I don't know. This is, like, the most insecure line of questions we've had in terms of I just want my flowers. I just want to make, you know, them to say they love me. Are you leading a business or are we selling ice cream? What. What is going on here? Like, this is. This is crazy to me. I'm hearing these questions of, like, just, look, here's the thing. I have found within leadership from my experience, and there are the leaders that come in that bring in, like, you know, like, donuts for everybody. And people are like, oh, man, they brought donuts. Again, I love this person, etc. And then there are, you know, and I'm not saying this is always like, they're polar opposites or even that there's just two types, because there's multiple types of leaders. But then there's sometimes the types of leaders that are like, hey, you better not go down, eat one of those donuts until you're on target. Right? And then they're tough on their team, and their team, like, views them. It's like the movie Whiplash, right? Where their team just views them as, like, this person, like, you know, exceedingly high standards, and they're really tough on them, but they're making a whole lot of money. And then, as it turns out, those people love them because they further their career versus the donut guy who's passing out the donuts. And their team is flailing, but they're like, yeah, but I'm doing all the

Speaker B: things that they like.

Speaker A: I'm trying to buy their love.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: I'm trying to buy their affection. I think it would. I would just separate the fact of, uh. And I'm not saying this is your partner, because I don't know. There's a difference between trying to buy someone's love and trying to help make someone successful. Right. If I am of the belief that I would rather help somebody be more successful and actually achieve their goals and even if they dislike me through that process. Right. Because at the end of the day, if you're helping somebody achieve what they want to achieve, like you're giving them what they need, not always what they want, they're telling you, hey, I have these goals in my life. I want to buy a home, I want to pay down my debt, I want to be able to take my, you know, my kids on vacation, et cetera. And you're the doing the things, you're challenging them in a way that is productive in terms of achieving that, as opposed to ruinous empathy, as Kim Scott would say, where you're just, you know, oh, just have a cookie, eat a cupcake. It's not so bad. Let's go on a walk and do a little bitch session. We complain, right? Okay. You know, you get it all out, right? And then the person comes back and the situation is the same. I would say be authentic to you. And if you're leading an organization, the rule of thumb should be, what do we need to do to make progress.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: Like, they may dislike you in the process. That's okay.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: You don't have to be loved along the way.

Speaker C: Right back again, you're not.

Speaker A: Just win, baby. Just win. And what is winning? Well, winning can mean different things, but generally when you are growing an organization, and as a result, people in those organization are able to grow themselves and achieve what they're setting out to achieve, and their vision's big enough to fit their vision in there. That is what creates fulfillment. But in terms of, like, they like you, it's like happiness, right? Like, this is like a. This is like a personal, like, decision that somebody makes when they come into an organization. Like, am I going to be happy today? Does the organization make me happy? I mean, that's just like a silly thing. I don't think that's the role of any organization to be responsible for anybody's happiness. Like, happiness is a choice. It's just like being miserable is a choice. So I, I would get past this. You know, they like, oh, but they like my partner, and he's such a nice guy, and I'm so tough. Uh, just be you.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: Who cares?

Speaker C: Yes. All of these questions.

Speaker A: I don't know, man. This is. This is silly. This tells me that you guys need bigger problems. Like, I. I'm telling you, got to set, like, maybe bit, you know, larger goals. What are we talking about here? Like this, this is the type of thing that people talk about when they problems are too small because this is where their focus goes, right? I mean, if you're in a war torn country, you're not thinking about your purpose. I'm just saying, like, just, you know, what brings me joy, what brings me happiness, just win.

Speaker C: Like that's what brings you joy.

Speaker A: Lock in. Like, you know that that's what it should be. Lock in. Instead of having these existential type of conversations about do they love me? I mean, this is crazy. It's crazy. All right, that's it. That's three.

Speaker C: That's it, that's three.

Speaker A: It's enough, guys. That's enough for this week. Until next time.

Speaker C: Until next time. You've been listening to the Game Changing Attorney podcast with Michael Mogul. If you found this episode valuable, here are three free ways that we can help you grow your law firm. Number one, download the first chapter of Michael's book absolutely free@gamechangingattorney.com. number two, you can shoot Michael a text at 404-531-7691 and ask him any question you'd like. You might just hear the answer on the next episode. And finally, number three, if you can leave this podcast a few five star review, it will help us gain access to more influential thought leaders and bring their lessons learned here to you. For more information on this episode, see the show notes in your podcast app or visit legalpodcast.com.