474. AMMA - You Are Not Right About Everything

Speaker A: I can feel a certain way, but then when we look at the actual data, it shows up in another way. And even though I don't like it in terms of that's not what I would have done, but it is what we're going to do, because I want to make decisions based on objectively what the data is telling us.

Speaker B: I'm Michael Mogul, founder and CEO of Krispy, the nation's number one law firm growth company. I've built my business through practice, not theory. Krisp started with just $500 to my name and has grown to over eight figures in revenue over the last few years, earning a spot on the Inc. 500 list of the fastest growing private companies in America. Our approach has been to take everything we've learned about generating massive growth within our own organization and help the country's most ambitious and committed law firm owners do the same for theirs. In each episode of this podcast, I sit down with innovative market leaders from the legal industry and beyond to to learn from those who thrive in the face of adversity, challenge the status quo, and define what it means to be

Speaker A: a true game changer.

Speaker C: This is Jessica, uh, head of coaching strategy at Crisp. And today we're flipping the script for another special edition episode to get Michael's take on how to recover when executive confidence leads to significant operational fallout. Uh, strategies to ensure teams feel empowered to present data that may contradict leadership intuition and determining if a collaborative decision making process has lost its intended purpose and simply become a formality.

Speaker A: We get asked this on the podcast all the time. They're like, how do I get my team to be more innovative and how do I get them to be bought in and stepping up to the plate more and contributing and that sort of thing. Well, you do it by actually listening to them and also giving them a chance to fail.

Speaker C: That's coming up on the Game Changing Attorney podcast.

Speaker A: Welcome back.

Speaker C: Here we are again.

Speaker A: I feel like we're in the future.

Speaker C: We are in the future. You know, back to the future.

Speaker A: Back to the future. So welcome to the amma. Usually just going to have a little bit of light banter at the start of this, uh, but we're going to go straight into the questions this time, right? Because we just did another one of these and, uh, we want to be able to, uh, allocate sufficient time to our questions. So if you're tuning in, uh, to the amma, this is a segment of the podcast where you guys submit your questions about anything to do with leadership, marketing, brand culture, etc. And we answer them here on the show. And if you want to hear your question on the podcast, you can text us at 404-531-7691. And in fact, I will say, how about this? Um, just for fun, uh, we will pick a text at random, um, that comes in over the next 24 hours, and we will, I don't know, um, we'll send you some swag. How about that?

Speaker C: How about that?

Speaker A: You know, we'll send you something cool from the crisp swag shop that we have here on site. So all you gotta do is text us at 404-531-7691. In fact, let me know, uh, let me know what you're reading, right? If you got a great book, I'm always up to, uh, read something new. Could be fiction, can be nonfiction, uh, could be an audiobook. Anything like that. I'd love to hear about it. Uh, the other types of podcasts we do on this, uh, on this podcast are the traditional interview format, where we bring on guests from the legal industry and beyond, and then the encore editions, where we bring back some of our most popular episodes. The other thing I will say before we get going is you may notice or you may not notice is that we do not run any ads on this podcast. So that allows us to keep the podcast unfiltered. It allows us to bring on whatever guests we want. It allows our guests to say whatever they want. And we are not beholden to any, uh, any sponsor. Uh, but what we do ask is in order to keep the podcast free, if you get any sort of value from the show that you please share it with a friend and leave us a review on Apple podcasts or on Spotify. So with that, Jessica, let's get into it. Let's see what, uh, what questions we have for this week.

Speaker C: All right, kicking us off. Question number one, Michael. I've built my entire reputation on being decisive. When I make a call, it's made, and we move forward. Earlier this year, I pushed through a full case management system switchover and received some pretty vocal concerns from my operations manager. Eight months later, we're still dealing with the fallout. Missed deadlines, frustrated staff, and a client experience that took a real hit. When I look back, she had flagged almost every problem we eventually ran into. But I have been so dismissive for so long that she had just stopped saying anything. How do you stay decisive without becoming the kind of leader whose certainty starts to work against them?

Speaker A: I don't know, man. I think we're conflating things here. That decisiveness does not mean that you're dismissive. You shouldn't be dismissive of feedback in an effort to make a faster decision. Like uh, I think in many respects the person who's asking this question has potentially a lot of blind spots. Maybe it's like an ego thing where you're so tied up in wanting to be decisive that you fail to acknowledge the feedback of others.

Speaker C: It's like bullish almost.

Speaker A: Yeah, I don't really understand that. So I think there really is a difference. Now on the converse or the opposite side of this, I see people that are always looking for a lot of feedback whenever they're trying to make a decision, they're going to ask like uh, a dozen people and they're going to get a dozen different answers. And, and sometimes the more people you ask, the less it actually is helpful because those, you know, sometimes the feedback is going to be contradictory. People contradict one another. Yeah, exactly. So it's finding that middle ground in terms of like, look, you've got a person, in this case, you've got an operations manager who's voicing concerns. Why would you be dismissive of that? I mean, I guess I, perhaps I don't, I don't have context of that from this question. But if people are flagging things to me, I'd always want to know like, tell me more. Right. Like now what they're sharing might be absolutely nothing to worry about, but I want to know for sure. There's different types of decisions you can make. Right. So there's, and some are going to be much more impactful than others and not all decisions should be weighed equally. But if you're switching over your case management platform, that's going to impact the entire team. The entire team. Exactly, exactly. Like I would at least want to hear somebody out who is uh, on, you know, at the ground level and working in this platform on a day to day basis. Right. What are your concerns? The other thing I find is that when you are dismissive of others and everything seems to be like your idea, you don't get the buy in from other people. Um, it's essentially like, it's like my way or the highway. Right. That's not to say you can't make decisions and when you want to make decisions quickly, but that doesn't again, you can overcorrect. I think this person is too far in one direction of uh, wanting to be like, yes, no. Making decisions without any context whatsoever, without wanting to get any feedback whatsoever. And I think that. That comes from a place of ego, and ego leads to blind spots. I mean, what would you add to this?

Speaker C: I just have a lot of questions, even about. Maybe it's the size of the firm, but why is the firm owner the one running this anyway? Of switching over a whole case management system? Like, isn't that what you have an operations manager for?

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you know, and maybe this is going to be a great lesson for you. Um, sometimes people don't, you know, take their hand off the stove until, you know, until it's hot. But I don't know, man. Like, look, you can still be a decision, but if you're getting people that are giving you a flag, like, here, his yellow flag, like, here may have a concern here. Maybe you should. Maybe you shouldn't, like, hear them out. Yeah, like, I want to know. Like, at least know for sure.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker A: I want to know if this is, like, a serious, like, a valid concern. Is it coming from somebody that I trust, that is highly accountable within the organization. They know something that I don't, which is. Which just happens a lot. And I'd want to hear from them, what do they feel is best. But if I'm dismissive of them and I'm like, okay, here's what we're doing anyway, and I didn't want to even hear you out. Then guess what's going to happen later. Uh, regardless of whether it's the right or wrong decision, they're going to resent you, and they're not going to be fully bought in, and they're going to do whatever it is that you're asking them to do, um, out of fear. Out of fear, perhaps against their will, or it's just like, fine, I'll do it right. And then they get quiet, and they're not going to want to speak up and share any more feedback. And before you know it, things are going to get worse, and you're never going to hear about it.

Speaker C: Correct.

Speaker A: Until it actually blows up.

Speaker C: Yeah, that. Quiet quitting will start. All right, question number two. Hey, Michael. Something happened recently that I'm still processing. I had a person on my team who kept pushing back on how we were handling our client intake, specifically the number of touch points between the first call and the signed retainer. I've been doing this long enough that I was pretty confident. I knew it worked. Eventually she stopped raising it, and I figured we had moved on. What I didn't know was that she had been quietly tracking our conversion numbers for four months on her own. And when she finally put the data in front of me. It showed me we were losing nearly 30% of prospects right at the stage she had been flagging. We made the change and our conversion rate jumped almost immediately. The thing that stuck with me wasn't being wrong. It was the fact that I almost never found out because I had made it so clear I wasn't interested in hearing it. How do you make sure you're not accidentally training your team to stop bringing you the things that you most need to hear

Speaker A: by not thinking so highly of yourself? I mean, this is very similar to the first question, but what a mistake. And I've been this way before, like, so I understand, I empathize with this person. But now, especially, like, the longer, like, I run a business and now it's been, you know, well over a decade, probably like a couple of decades if you count the other businesses. I am more concerned about not what I don't know, but what I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker C: Yes, right.

Speaker A: Like, I'm really concerned about the blind spots. When I speak to coaches and mentors. My first question is like, what am I not seeing? Or where am I wrong? Right. Like, I am very much worried about what is it that I'm not seeing around the corners? Because I think it would be a huge mistake to not be deeply curious and, and ultimately have that student mindset of, of, you know, of thinking in really in terms of first principles is like, break this down so I can do the most basic self and kind of question our assumptions. So in this case, that this person has this data, you could have, I mean, one side could argue and say, well, why didn't you show me the data in the first place? Right. If you've been tracking it, thank you very much. But it's not their responsibility to bring you something that you're dismissive of.

Speaker C: Correct.

Speaker A: So when they did voice the concerns, let's say someone tells me, hey, I don't, I don't agree with this, or, uh, I feel strongly in this direction, I'd say, great. Do you have any data that supports the way you feel? Because if you do, I'm happy to look at it. Because here, here's my view. It's like this. You know, there's a saying in Silicon Valley of, like, that most people have, like, strong opinions, strongly held, but the way to be a really great leader is to have strong opinions, loosely held. Most people do not change their mind, and they don't do so out of ego, because they see that if they change their mind that's going to make them look weak in some way, which I think it couldn't be further from the truth. I believe that if I can feel strongly in one direction based on my experience, based on things that I've done firsthand, but if I'm confronted with new information and new data that shows that something is another way, then I am 1m hundred percent open to changing my opinion and to ultimately making different decisions. Right? So it's like, I'll, uh, give you an example to somebody listening. Let's say you don't believe in aliens. Okay? Totally fair. Right? But what if I marched an, an alien into your office and like, I'm not talking about like bacteria in a little petri dish. I'm like, I'm talking like a real, like a walking alien. Would you be like, okay, aliens exist, so I think we should be a bit more open minded. But when someone's raising a concern, it doesn't mean, you know, if you're going to raise a concern. Let's, let's go back and forth. Like, let's, let's have some substance to your disagreement.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker A: Like, let's challenge this. Um, if you have data that supports the way you feel and we can, you know, we can, we can test offset data, then okay, like, absolutely we can, you know, maybe like we feel strongly in one direction. This happens all the time, by the way. I can feel a certain way. But then when we look at the actual data, it shows up in another way. And even though I don't like it, you know, in terms of, that's, that's not what I would have done. But it is what we're going to do because I want to make decisions based on objectively what the data is telling us. Right? Sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong. But I think it would be a mistake to be dismissive of somebody's concerns. So you could look at it and say, well, why didn't this person bring this to me earlier? But again, if they did voice concerns, I would say, all right, you know, do you have data that supports it? In which case if you would have done that, they probably would have showed it to you earlier. You kind of save yourself a bunch of money. So I think we should be more open minded to, uh, challenging our assumptions and our beliefs and make it clear to our team that we are not dead set on anything if we have data that supports otherwise.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: Right now I'm not going to change my mind if you don't have the data. Right. It's not. You can't just tell me I feel this way. It's like, good for you.

Speaker C: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: There's going to be certain levels of pattern recognition and certain experience that you have that in certain areas of expertise. You would say we're going to go in this direction because I have seen this before, I've experienced this before, I know this firsthand. Great. If it's an area that I don't understand, then absolutely not. That's not going to happen. But also in areas where I'm very, very, I would say in quotes, certain. If there's data that contradicts the way that I feel, then we're going to change our perspective because we're going to go with what the data tells us. Even if what we used to do used to work and it's uh, the way we always have done things before. That's open to change. Everything is open to change.

Speaker C: Yes. And also listen to the people who are like living and doing the job. Like you're probably so far removed from it. I am in so many regards here. So I'm like, show me how do you do this? Like, what is it? So, yeah, listen to the people who are actually doing it.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker C: Okay, to close us out with question number three. I received some feedback recently that has been really troubling me and I want your opinion, Michael. I was in a leadership meeting with my team where we were debating whether to move forward with a major rebrand. New name, new visuals, completely new positioning. And one of my leaders said something that really stuck with me. She said, and I'm paraphrasing that she's noticed I tend to ask for input, but that I've already usually made up my mind before the conversation starts. Basically, she was saying that over time people have learned that the discussion is more of a formality than a genuine exchange. I didn't love hearing that, but the more I thought about it, the more I wondered if she had a point. I don't think I'm closed minded. I genuinely believe I consider all angles before making decisions. But what if I'm wrong about that? How would I even know?

Speaker A: How would you even know the fact

Speaker C: that you're asking the question?

Speaker A: Uh, well, it sort of. Here's what I would say to this. It's your business and you can run your business however you want. You take all the risk, you make all the investment. When something doesn't work, you pay the price for it. And if you're willing to be wrong and pay the price for being wrong, then you're entitled to do whatever you want.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: Right. So I will start off with that. That said, I think that this type of behavior, which is how I used to be early on as a leader, really stems from a lack of either just. It's either a place of insecurity and ego, or you've never experienced what it's like for somebody to have another idea that's not, you know, your idea, and that ends up being a good idea, and the business grows and makes more money. Because as soon as you experience that, you're going to look at it and say, well, why didn't I, like, open. Open up the feedback, you know, sooner. Right. Like, because I see this with a lot of founders and because you've either been screwed over so many times or, um, you feel that other people just don't know what they're talking about. They don't have the same context that you do, that every decision has to be your decision, and that you're the only one who can direct the strategy of the firm moving forward. But I would say that a lot of times, like, people have really, really great ideas. Some of them are not so great. But you can't say that every idea you've ever had is even great. It's no different than saying, like, look, people are going to make mistakes, but how many times have you made mistakes?

Speaker C: Right, right.

Speaker A: I mean, it's, it's, it's completely normal. So I think that if you're having these meetings where you've already made the decision, everybody feels like it's a formality, then you're never going to get true innovation out of your team. This is, we get asked this on the podcast all the time. They're like, how do I team to be more innovative? And how do I get them to be, like, you know, basically bought in and stepping, um, up to the plate more and contributing and like that, that sort of thing. Would you do it by actually listening to them and also giving them a chance to fail?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So sometimes you actually have to, like, basically sign off on these ideas, whether it's ideas that you may not even 100% agree with and say, oh, man, let's give it a shot. Let's see what happens. And then it's their idea and it's their plan. Um, it gives them a sense of ownership and autonomy because, you know, as long as everything rests and relies on you, then they're going to shut off their brain and they're not going to burn any calories and they're just going to do whatever it is you tell them to do. But then what you're, what you're really doing there is. You're wasting one of the greatest capabilities you have in your firm, which is like their creativity.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: Like, why would you not want to leverage that? Assuming you've hired like, smart, capable people, why wouldn't you want their perspective and their insights? It doesn't mean everything they say is going to be exactly what you go with.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: But, you know, an idea here, an idea there, like a perspective here. I think you can come to a much better decision when you can consider, like just perspectives from all sides. We see this with our, you know, executive leadership team. We have different departments that offer different perspectives and different experiences and that helps us make better decisions. Because if there's just. If I'm making decisions in a vacuum, I'm not always considering every aspect of that and some of our best ideas. So we just, we rolled out last year at our summit, I think over 20 new features, enhancements, innovations across all of our programs, and every single one of those came from our team. That did not come from me. And it was probably the greatest period of innovation that we've had in a very, very long time. Right. They, you know, it was their ideas, they beta tested them, um, they created the implementation plans, they did the rollouts, like, etc, like all that. And that would have never happened if it was just me doing it. So, uh, I think the best way to, you know, to have people like contributing and speaking up and not having this feeling of like, okay, it's a foregone conclusion. They already know what they want. We're have a meeting as a formality, is if you actually listen to them and start allocating resource to their ideas and their perspectives. Even at times where you may disagree.

Speaker C: Yeah, but you got to give people opportunity.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's okay to have a different perspective.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, it's okay.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: I don't know, it's just wild to me, right? Like this idea that you are the arbiter of all good ideas and all progress and everybody else is just there for the ride, you know, like, that's just, that's just silly. Like, start actually. Look, you don't have to do it all on your own. And this is coming from somebody that was like the ultimate control freak. You can crowdsource ideas, you can like, learn from other members of your team. That's why you hire great people that come from different perspectives and have different value sets than you. And then when you incorporate all that, sometimes great things happen. Some of our best ideas and our best innovations have come as a result of actually hearing and learning from other team members. And they've not come from my brain.

Speaker C: Yeah. All right, till next time.

Speaker A: Until next time.

Speaker C: You've been listening to the Game Changing Attorney podcast with Michael Mogul. If you found this episode valuable, here are three free ways that we can help you grow your law firm. Number one, download the first chapter of Michael's book absolutely free@gamechangingattorney.com Number two, you can shoot Michael a text at 404-531-7691 and ask him any question you'd like. You might just hear the answer on the next episode. And finally, number three, if you can leave this podcast a five star review, it will help us gain access to more influential thought leaders and bring their lessons learned here to you. For more information on this episode, see the show notes in your podcast app or visit legalpodcast.com.