Google Discover Is the Biggest Traffic Opportunity SEOs Are Missing (1B+ Clicks Proven)

Edward Sturm: are cracking Google Discover today We're joined by Guilhem and Guilhem you wrote on X and I made a podcast about this You wrote on X Google Discover is the most powerful free traffic source for publishers by far Nothing else delivers five million daily visits from a single article I've spent five years cracking it 120 plus publishers publishers 30 countries over one billion clicks So Guilhem thank you Thank you for coming on the podcast Guilhem: Thank you. Thank you to have me.

Uh, so just to start, I, I'm not, uh, an English native speaker, so if I have some weird, uh, sentence, uh, apologize for that. I hope my accent is okay. And yeah, thank you for the invitation Edward Sturm: Could you share your background You've d you've worked with 120 plus publishers 30 countries over one billion clicks You said 5 daily visits daily visits from a single Guilhem: Maybe. Yeah, yeah, they're on only one website, uh, so I didn't count all the website together.

Uh, so basically I'm, uh… I was in the SEO industry, uh, for 10 years. Uh, I worked in an agency, like, and I started to have some side business, like a lot of, uh, publisher with affiliation, uh, websites, with, uh, traffic websites. And my side business started to be, uh, like the salary was better than my real salary, you know what I mean? Edward Sturm: Yeah I Guilhem: I started to say, "Hmm, maybe I need to go a bit, dig a bit deeper in that."

Uh, and so I launched my own company, uh, about 10 years ago. Uh, so it was firstly, uh, like a publishing company. I launched some media websites, some news websites, some affiliation website, and I started to see, uh, some spike on Google Discover, the mysterious Google Discover tab. No one talked about, uh, at this point, and I was like, "That's crazy," because sometime it's, it's like thousand of clicks, and no one talked about it.

So I just Like put in, uh, I put myself in the research and development mode, and I just try, try, try to kind of reverse engineering the algorithm, like to f- see there is something. It's not just luck. There is something. There is a pattern there.

So I found it. I finally found it. Uh, I s- start to talk about my success in, in Twitter because, uh, it's a network that I, I like, I like. Uh, so yeah, I share some screenshots, some success stories, some mistakes I do also, uh, because I crash a lot of websites too, so it's really important when you try to understand something.

Uh, and yeah, slowly media outlets start to contact me in DM and said, "Okay, you seems to know something about Google Discover. It's a really big part of our traffic, so maybe we can have a chat." Uh, and I, I hate sell my work. Like, I'm not a consultant.

Uh, I, uh, I don't like to, uh, sell my time. Uh, so I just felt, um, maybe it's better to just, like partnership, you know? Work on your media outlets, and we split the revenue that, uh, I generate with my, uh, skills. And if it doesn't work, you don't have to pay anything.

Uh, the risk is on me. And yeah, so I started like that, and I launched, uh, an offer. It was Discover Partners at first, uh, based on this, uh, revenue sharing model. It worked quite well, really well, and so this is why I work with a huge amount of media and publisher, um, worldwide because, um, I started to tweet in English, uh, also, and it bring a lot of DM.

Uh, so yeah, uh, I, I had a lot of, uh… I, I think I add, um, at some point I add, uh, websites like media on every continent at the same time, so it's really good because you can see the core updates are global, and sometimes they are not. So it's, it's nice to have this, uh, this view. And yeah, now, uh, uh, we are five on the, on the agency, uh, and we still work only with a performance-based model. So yeah, it's the way I, I like to work.

Edward Sturm: It was awesome It was super exciting Um we're gonna get into advanced tactics in a in a bit but just like basics can you explain Google Discover for people who haven't Guilhem: Yeah, yeah. That's really an important question because when you ask someone, "Do you know Google Discover? Do you use it?" They typically say, "No, I, I don't know what you mean.

What is it?" Uh, the good part is a lot of people use it, and they don't know the name of it because it's on Android phone, so basically you have just to… Uh, maybe I can show it. I don't know if it's not be really clear, but it's an Android phone. I just go here, and I'm in Google Discover.

So there is a feed, basically. It's like a Instagram feed. Uh, it's really a thing of the Edward Sturm: que I Guilhem: Go- Edward Sturm: question cause you know I see this as well in the Google app on my iPhone Guilhem: Yeah, yeah. True Edward Sturm: so that's Google Discover as well Guilhem: Also, exactly.

You can, can you show me my screen? I, I will answer you because sometime people, um, confuse it with, uh, Apple News, for example, because it's quite similar Edward Sturm: open I'm opening the Google app and then and then you see you see here so here's the search bar and then you Guilhem: Yeah. It's like Edward Sturm: down That's and that's Google Discover too Guilhem: Exactly. And that's a really important point.

Edward Sturm: is on an iPhone Guilhem: Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's really important because Android, the share market of Android in, in the US and in Europe are not the same at all. In the US, you have more, uh, uh, iPhone, and in Europe it's… I think it's, at some point it was 80% of the market. So huge market.

Everyone had the, the app installed. Like, I mean, you just have to swipe and you, you know, you, you are, you wait, uh, in, in a, in a queue, uh, you are in toilets, you just have 10 minutes, you know what I mean? Edward Sturm: Yeah I do Guilhem: doom scroll, okay? Like Instagram.

Uh, in the US, a lot of people say, "Oh, I'm an i- I'm in an iPhone," but just open Google Chrome, and you are, like, you just showed up, uh, in, in Google Discover. So exactly. The massive used because Google is really good to impose its product. So it's, Android are everywhere.

Google Chrome is everywhere. When it's free, you're the product, so basically Edward Sturm: What are the basic requirements to get a blog or an article section into Google Discover Just the absolute basics Speaker: This method of marketing is so effective, I had to make sure it wasn't against Google's rules before I kept using it. It's a form of SEO I call compact keywords. Whereas most SEO focuses on putting up articles to answer questions, how, what, when, compact keywords focuses on putting up dozens of pages that sell to searchers who are actually looking to buy.

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com. Back to the podcast. Guilhem: Yep. Edward Sturm: like let's say like somebody's a niche somebody's a n uh a maybe like a one or twoyearold niche blog and they're like Okay w how do I get Google Discover traffic Guilhem: Yeah, exactly.

Uh, so first you need a website for sure, because it's article on the, uh… No, it's some, a mix of social media, but I just put it, uh, in the backside because, yeah, to be clear. So you need a website. You need to have an editorial purpose. If you are, for example, an e-commerce or stuff like that, it's not the best fit.

It can… Edward Sturm: say can you say that again You have to what Guilhem: To, to have like an editorial, um, essence, like you need to have, uh, like you said, a blog. It's a good example. You need to have, um, persistent, consistent publication flow. So it's really important.

If you just have a static website that you don't publish on, uh, for five years, not the best fit. You need to reactivate the editorial, um, purpose. I, I don't know Edward Sturm: So forward so forwardblog is okay Guilhem: Oh yeah, it's perfectly okay. Yeah, yeah Edward Sturm: and then like is there is there an amount of I I I saw you post that you can have such a thing as too much volume but is there a minimum amount of volume that you want to Guilhem: Yeah.

So I always recommend to start with one article a day. So one article a day is… It could seem, uh, big for some website, it could be a little bit less, uh, but you need to be consistent. So the, the frequency, it's more important than the quantity there. Um, another really important thing, you need to know your audience.

So it's not, it's not keyword related. It's not SEO at all. It's closer than TikTok to SEO. So you need to f- don't, don't think, uh, it as a niche, think about your audience.

Uh, let's find an example. Uh, let's say, I don't know, uh, you have, um… Do you have an example of a niche? Maybe we can start with that Edward Sturm: Okay let's do How about you know what Um HouseFresh Are you familiar with HouseFresh They got hit by Guilhem: Not much. Can you explain it a little bit?

Edward Sturm: are a a a big um air purifier blog Guilhem: Okay Edward Sturm: hit by the Google helpful content update and then aand they were they were previously like at their alltime high before the Google helpful content update They were at 50000 clicks a month got hit by it They were down to like 1000 clicks a month got out of it and now they're at like 275000 clicks a month Guilhem: Yeah, yeah. Edward Sturm: Yeah so they're more l of like uh what you would imagine like an affiliate blog So a niche publisher publishing Guilhem: Yeah.

Edward Sturm: air purifiers Guilhem: Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, uh, and we need to talk about the core updates. It's a really important topic, uh, and we will explore it, uh, I think after it.

Um, but yeah, so let's take this example. You, you talk about a niche product. Uh, you won't make, like, one article a day about just that because it's a bit too narrow. Uh, so you need to find what your audience consume in term of content.

To do that, you don't, uh, just guess randomly. You just go to your, uh, Google Analytics, activate the audience collection. It depend… If you are in the US, I think it's by default. In Europe, in Europe, you need to activate it.

And, and after, you start collecting the, uh, gender, the age, the demographic, et cetera, et cetera. And more important, the interest. So you will have access to what your audience typically likes, a bit like Edward Sturm: so walk so walk me through in Google in in Google Guilhem: Yeah. Edward Sturm: Where where do you have to go Guilhem: Oh, so no, it's not, it's not in the search console.

It's in analytics. Edward Sturm: it's in Guilhem: it's… Edward Sturm: Awesome Sorry Guilhem: Exactly. So I just try to, uh, guide you with an English version of it. So you go to reports And you go to User and then User Attributes Overview Edward Sturm: So then you go to oh user attributes Yeah I see it And then uh and then overview Guilhem: And overview.

Exactly. If it's active, you have… If it's not, you just have to click and wait one or two days, uh, something like that. So there you have the ages, you have the interests. For example, home and garden, home decor enthusiast, travel, food and drinks, et cetera.

Uh, so with that, you can start building a persona, and it's very important you… If you want to publish one article a day, you need to think of article that these kind of people would like, even if it's not your niche. You know what I mean? So, uh, with your example, I don't know, um, maybe you will have, uh, like home and garden, for example, okay? So maybe you can extend it to home advice, you know, home tips, how to, uh… People will love to have clear air, maybe like- Edward Sturm: air a clean home Guilhem: Exactly, this kind of thing.

So you don't guess, you just, uh, like you kinda guess, but with some data. Okay? So really important. Uh, then you have your persona.

Try to have like one sentence. Okay, my typical persona, my, my number one is, uh, um, woman, 40 to 50 ages, um, uh, years ago. Uh, not years ago, year old, sorry. Uh, and, uh, interested by home and decoration.

So I will try to just stick to this one, to this persona. You can extend after, really important, but let's keep it simple. Uh, so then you start producing for a persona, and you have an audience that you will speak to. So it's more clear than just try to make thousand of article, uh, randomly.

So the first thing is that. After, it's really important to consider what asset do you have. So to go on… To, to be on Google Discover, Google needs to like your website, so you need to have strong signal. What are the signal?

So the UX, the user experience. So is your website slow? Because Google Discover is on mobile, so if the… someone clicks and have to wait huge amount of time, pogo sticking, it's not good. So really good to have clear technical foundation for the UX, not for the algorithm, for the, the people who read the article.

Um, after that, you need to have, um, a strong title, images, and content, not that important. I will, uh, maybe, uh, answer that after, but the, the, the real important thing is the stop scroll. So you need to have the, uh, something that stop the scroll because people won't search you. Google will push you.

It's, it's push, so it's really important. It's not pull. Uh, and yeah, I talked about assets, so strong SEO traffic, strong SEO metric. Don't… Like don't be destroyed by a core update.

It's better because if Google don't like you, it will not push you, uh, massively on Google Discover. But even if it's the case, you can start slowly, and after the next core update, you can, like, just explode. Okay. Uh, and what, uh, other important assets?

Social media, newsletter, this kind of thing. A thing that Google will see, and if you have people who arrive to a website with a mixed traffic, not only SEO, but also direct traffic, you know, this kind of thing, it's a strong signal of engagement with your content, so it's really, really important. Edward Sturm: So Google likes to see branded searches to actually understand that you are a brand If you have branded searches that means you're a brand People are searching your brand name you're a brand Guilhem: Exactly.

Really important to have some notoriety keyword in your search console Edward Sturm: can you do it if you're like let's say you're you're not r Let's say yeah you're that niche blog You're still kind of new You're you haven't established yourself as a brand that people are searching but you still want to get traffic with Google Discover and you're posting once a day and you've picked a niche Is it still possible Guilhem: It's still possible. It's a bit harder to be really honest because there was a massive, uh, spam wave typically in France because there is a lot of black hat SEO in France.

We have a really, a big black hat culture in France, contrary to the US if I, uh, if I understood correctly. Uh, people really like to dig, uh, Edward Sturm: C Guilhem: what Edward Sturm: with s connect me with some of your black hat friends I'd love to have them on the show Guilhem: Sorry? Edward Sturm: I said connect me with some of your black hat Guilhem: All right, I, I can do that. Edward Sturm: to have them on the podcast Guilhem: Uh, I know, uh, one guy in particular, uh, and he, he made so many massive spam websites with some… A, a good example of an asset.

So for example, this, uh, specific hack was to have a Google My Business expired domain website. Because Google know your entity by the search keyword, et cetera, like is there a keyword, uh, related to the brand, and is there, for example, a Google profile related to this? So the knowledge graph, the Google ecosystem is really important for the signal. Uh, and so typically it was a hack, like you just had to have, uh, a Google My Business and Google just said, "Okay, it's a real company.

There is an address there. There is…" You know what I mean? Real hours of opening. There is reviews.

So if you go on Google Discover with that asset, it's a really strong signal. Because of its spam wave, it was, um, beginning of the, of the year, uh, Google really, uh, tightened the thing, so now it's really b- uh, harder for small websites. It's not impossible though, but it's really harder compared to two years ago or one years ago. So I, I want to be clear about that.

This is why now we mainly work with real brand, real media, media outlet, et cetera, because Google don't want to take the risks. There, there was too many false signal that you can manipulate, uh, so it's… This is why it's a bit harder, but not impossible, again Edward Sturm: How can a how can a publisher just even like still on basics how can a publisher tell if they're already appearing in Google Discover Guilhem: Yeah, simple. You go to Search Console and you have the S- uh, Discover tab.

It's you… It's not something that you can apply for. It's like Google News now. It's algorithm. So if you have the consistency, like I said, one article a day, you speak to an audience, you have a mix of traffic, social media, SEO, et cetera, normally you will appear on Google Discover at some point.

When you are the… Yep Edward Sturm: are there any other technical requirements to be eligible for Google Discover Guilhem: Not much, to be honest. The, the foundations, the technical foundation. Like I said, the, the images, like you need to have a great images, a big one, uh, a publication date and an author, like sign the article with an author. Um, and that basically it.

If your content is interesting, your website is editorial by nature, you, you, you just have the, the, you, you check the, the thing Edward Sturm: What are the most for people who are seeing they're seeing Discover in Google Search Console but they're not getting anything What are the most common reasons that a site gets zero Discover impressions Guilhem: Yeah, simple. Uh, there is no strategy, no specific strategy for Google Discover. Uh, a lot of people, uh, like think it's SEO, a, a bit like SEO or just think I need to publish at, at least one or two article, one shot with, uh, clickbait title, clickbait images, a really long content like SEO.

It d- it, it, it won't work. It won't work because it's a different, uh, channel, so you, you Edward Sturm: have Guilhem: have to treat it like Edward Sturm: have you seen any brand successfully um successfully do SEO and Google Discover together with Guilhem: Oh yeah. Every day, every day. Uh, every media that we work with, uh, they have SEO traffic for like affiliation, for content to commerce, this kind of thing, or just like definition or whatever, and they have Google Discover.

And the repetition, like the, the… To, to have number in, in your mind, uh, in SEO you are happy when you have, let's say in France, there is, uh, less population than the US, if you have 1 million visitor monthly from SEO, it's good. It's, it's a big website, okay? So with media outlet now it's a bit like that. They have like 1, 2 million, uh, a month.

With Google Discover, it's 1, 2 million a day. So it's really, really a massive difference. And the, the, uh, a good website, a good media would have like 80% of its traffic from Google Discover. It's the, the number one channel for media.

And a strange thing, uh, I, I just, uh, I go deeper, but in the US because I have a lot of people interest by, uh, by my service in the US, um, I don't know why, but the media, the publisher don't really take the time to f- um, like, uh, go deeper on Google Discover. Uh, sometime they are just 5%, ep- 10% of, um, uh, traffic share on Google Discover. And I said, you can, like, you can do 10, 10 time mores just with a proper strategy. So the number one mistake is that you don't have a proper strategy for Google Discover Edward Sturm: How often do you see very successful pieces on Google Discover that are just getting zero traffic from SEO Guilhem: Uh, you mean a website that has only Google Discover traffic and no SEO at all?

Edward Sturm: No no no I'm saying I'm saying okay you have a blog you're putting up l You're yeah And so you're you're doing you're doing one article a day Is it possible to do it with less than an article a day Guilhem: Yeah, you can. You can do one a week as long as you have, uh, a, a good frequency, like you are consistent, Edward Sturm: Uhhuh Guilhem: it could fit. It could fit, but it will Edward Sturm: so Guilhem: take longer Edward Sturm: okay That makes sense And so yeah so how often do you see uh let's let's say articles or blog posts that will do really well on Google Discover but just won't get any traffic from organic search And that could be because of like you know make a really appealing title it might not actually be a title that's optimized for any specific keyword Guilhem: Yes, exactly.

Yeah, yeah. Because it's two different channel, you, you don't chase the two, uh, like in the same time. And honestly, I just forgot about, about SEO when I discovered the Google Discover traffic because at one point you do like hundred of clicks and the other side million of clicks. So to be honest, I choose my, uh, direction and the, the media, for example, in France, the media outlets just forget about SEO.

They do it as, as, uh, like some breadcrumbs, but Google Discover search is so much powerful, they just have good title for Google Discover. The thing that you can do though it's, uh, to optimize your title for SEO after the Discover wave because, because when you, uh, are, um, um, in Google Discover, you- your artic- your article will last for one to one, one day to one week. So after that the distribution is over. Uh, so you can just optimize your article for SEO because it's not the, the same, you know what I mean, the, the, the time, uh, after that.

So y- you can do both, but to be honest, uh, yeah, it's not the same power for media Edward Sturm: Yeah that makes sense How when when when you shared your story at the beginning how So how long ago was it that you first started noticing Google Discover traffic where you're like Oh what's this Guilhem: Yeah. So it was, uh, back in, hmm, 2012, I think, something like that. And I w- and I had, uh, I had bought a Google News website, you know. So Google News website, uh, I don't know if you're familiar with that.

It's, uh… You can appear on Google News, and you have instant indexation. So it's really a specific thing, and you can appear in top story, uh, for a keyword. Okay? Uh, so with that, it's really powerful bec- because, for example, you do an article about Bitcoins, uh, you can be number three in SEO ranking in, in an hour.

It's a strong keyword for SEO, and you can appear there. So I started like that with Google News websites. And Google News websites, like I said, are ed- editorial by nature. So for Google Discover, there is some bridge there.

Okay? There is some connection. So I add the, the tab, but no traffic, like a lot of people. After some time, I… Because I'm consistent with my publication rate and stuff, uh, I had some spike, and I started notice some interesting things.

For example, when I was in top story for a keyword, uh, I started to, uh, have some spike on Google Discover because of the traffic. So traffic is really important. Traffic is a new backlink. So traffic is good for the SEO.

This is why I, I go back to your question. When your artic- it hit hard on Google Discover, you take huge keyword in SEO without notice because you have a m- massive amount of traffic, so it's a big signal for the search engine as well. Uh, so it's really important to, to know that, and it's really the… Even for SEO, it's, it's really a, a big thing to, to have in mind Edward Sturm: So you were saying that yeah Google Discover is mainly for publishers but could do you do you ever see SaaS companies B2B ecommerce Guilhem: Yeah.

You can. You can because the thing that you can do, for example, we work with some brands, uh, I can't say the name because it's, uh, over NDA for sure, uh, but famous brain, uh, brain, brand, sorry. Edward Sturm: Brand Guilhem: And, uh, you have a slash, like a directory, a blog directory, and on this directory you can do editorial content. The thing after is to have a clear objective.

Is it… The goal, is it to be visible on a massive scale, at massive scale, or is it to drive sale directly? So this is why sometime people struggle because they want to sell their, uh, services with a cold traffic because Google Discover, people don't know you. If you just want to sell something, it's not the best channel. So this is why I always suggest to have, to, to see it as, uh, a more, uh, like, uh, a monetization with a display ads.

It's better, it's easier because you won't want to sell something with Google Discover. You can, but it's not the best approach, to be honest. Edward Sturm: Yeah it makes sense I mean um I'm I'm pretty big on TikTok and Instagram and uh I've made many many viral videos getting millions of views every month but what I do is I do the pitch at the end of the video It and so people people don't have the patience to have the pitch at the beginning of the video And so I will typically It's like I will show something interesting and then if you want to learn more here's how you learn more and that's the pitch Guilhem: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, there is a lot of similarity with TikTok. For example, the watch time is very important, so you need to have a, a short article because if your article is like SEO, uh, 1,000 word, uh, Google will just see people won't… don't read it, uh, fully like your TikTok video, so it's not interesting. So it's important to have snacking content. Uh, it's important to think like a watch time, uh, and to think like a, a storytelling.

This is why I said the content is not important. It's only important for the engagement signal. It's not important for the algorithm himself. Don't put keyword on it.

Don't put this kind of thing. Just put… think, think user. Like Google said, think user. It's really important Edward Sturm: This is kind of a this is more a more complex question but maybe you've thought about this Do you ever have situations where high publishing frequency will cause traditional SEO issues like keyword cannibalization or bloat and require pruning and things like that Guilhem: Not really, to be honest.

Typically, when you have Google Discover traffic, your SEO improve by a lot because of, of the traffic, like I said. Um, in term of, um, keyword cannibalization, uh, I'm not SEO anymore. I'm… don't consider myself as an SEO. I, I, I don't want to put, like, a guess about that.

But to be honest, it's not a concern when you, when you have million of traffic more, so it's not that important, uh, in perspective. Um, and you, you said content pruning as, uh, idea. Edward Sturm: Yeah yeah Guilhem: content pruning to me, it's one of the biggest mistake you can do on Google Discover, uh, because you just… you basically get your, your, your trustful content. Imagine a blog that you start in, uh, like 10 years ago.

You have article that are for sure not accurate in this timeline, okay? You want to cut it sometimes by, like, not thousand, but let, let's say hundred of article like that. So you just, like, prune th- prune this, and for Google Discover, it's your, uh, content death that you just cut. So basically you just put your trust, editorial trust in the dustbin.

So to me it's really absurd to do that. And for SEO, I don't know. For SEO maybe it's a good idea, but to be honest, uh, uh, for Discover it's one of the biggest mistake. You just cut your trust.

You would have massive, uh, redirection plan to do. Google Discover don't like massive redirection because of the spammer, because it was way too pow-powerful in black hat SEO. Even for SEO it's… there was massive, uh, like thing like with that and for Google Discover as well. So if you do that, I see massive media with big traffic just dead because of content pruning on Google Discover, I said.

So to me it's really not the, the best thing to do if you, if you want to, to, to go on Google Discover Edward Sturm: That's really interesting There's a lot of para parallels between TikTok A lot of people don't realize but if you actually delete a video on TikTok then your view you get less views for the next couple of videos And the way to actually if you don't want people to see your video you have to set the privacy to private Guilhem: Yeah Edward Sturm: shouldn't actually delete it When you delete it you delete all the signals that were associated with that that piece of content on TikTok and you will literally just see worse performance for the next couple of videos Guilhem: E-exactly.

So this is why f- to me it's, it's, it's absurd for, for Google Discover. For SEO, uh, I, I don't have any case study or stuff like that. I, I see some people with good result with that, but yeah, for Google Discover, forget about it Edward Sturm: What what kind of content formats work best in Discover Like news explainers opinion lists firstperson stories every Oh ooh and also how often do you see uh articles that worked well in Google Discover also influencing AI AI overviews ChatGPT I don't Guilhem: Mm-hmm.

Edward Sturm: something that you've looked at Guilhem: Uh, not in detail, but it's the same thing. If you have traffic, uh, you have a signal, a, a strong signal. So it's better to appear on I- II overview. Uh, but for you, the rest of the question, um, so can you just repeat it?

Edward Sturm: Yeah yeah What kind of content formats work best in Guilhem: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you have the news for sure, but it's not the best idea. Why? Because the news you will make the same, same news, like each media will, will have the same story to tell.

So you still can twist the angle. It's really important to think about the angle of your news. Um, so it's, um, a massive number of article on Google Discover are news rated or news rated. A thing that I prefer on Google Discover, it's what I call the evergreen.

So you take an evergreen content, but, uh, anytime you publish it, it's, it's still good, and you can twist it with some, um, like thing in the news. Let's put an example to be, uh, clear about that. For example, an article, uh, said, uh, why Greenland is so rich in term of, uh, like a precious, um… How, how can I say that? The, the rare earth.

Edward Sturm: rare elements Guilhem: Exactly. E- Edward Sturm: ele elements Is Guilhem: exactly. Edward Sturm: is Something like that Guilhem: So, so this article, you can put it in December, in January, that doesn't matter. But because Greenland at some point was hot in term of, you know what I mean, the news Edward Sturm: You're talking about news you're talking about newsjacking taking trending topics in the news and then making it relevant to your niche Guilhem: Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. So evergreen content and you, you newsjacking it. Yeah Edward Sturm: You're taking evergreen subject matter I do this all the time with uh social video I actually have a list What I do is I go and look at highperforming uh channels in my niche and I have like two I have several columns but the the first two columns is the hook because everyone knows the Guilhem: Yeah, really important Edward Sturm: and it's and it's similar to Google Discover It's like the title So so the the hook and then uh the subject matter And you will find that there is some subject matter that always does well Guilhem: Exact Edward Sturm: the subject matter that always does well and you make it relevant to some something that's newsworthy that's trending right now Guilhem: Exactly.

And to your audience. So you, you twist it with the personal like we talked about, uh, earlier. So if you have an audience, uh, a young audience, try to put some, you know, young words like people that, uh, are young used in your country. So really important to, to think about that, to, yeah, have a news for them, especially for them Edward Sturm: How often are you doing a different page title than H1 or do you always have your H1 and page title the same Guilhem: Uh, oh yeah, okay.

In, in term of s- structure, I didn't answer all your question. So you have the H1, same as title. Don't, you don't need to twist it or stuff like that. You can, but it's doesn't matter.

Uh, so title really important. You put it in the Open Graph title or in the title meta tag. Uh, after you can have a small, uh… Oh, I don't have the name in English. You know the small intro, the, um, uh, a, a small paragraph of intro Edward Sturm: the meta description or Is it the meta description or the Guilhem: The description.

No, no, it's, it's, uh, in the article in the front office, not in the back office or stuff. Uh, you know, the, an introduction. Let's, let's keep it simple. An introduction where you twist about the, the hook.

A bit like in a video, like you Edward Sturm: Th this is the actual introduction on the Guilhem: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Edward Sturm: yeah Guilhem: Exactly. Yeah.

In, in French there is a specific word about that, but maybe not in, in English. Uh, after you have a really simple article and don't put the answer at the beginning for the watch time. It's, it's like there is so many, uh, same approach with social media. You need to story tell a little bit.

Uh, so short article, two or three H2, and that's it. You don't need like H4, H, H, H3, et cetera, et cetera. You can put bullet points, you can put some resume like for a summarizer, for example, what's to, to, you know, the bottom line or stuff like that. Uh, but again, it needs to be easy to read piece of content Edward Sturm: So that's that is super interesting So you you're saying don't give the answer right away And uh it and you know what The opposite is true in SEO because in SEO people are literally searching for something and you want to satisfy search intent immediately with SEO Guilhem: Mm-hmm.

Edward Sturm: you're saying with Google Discover people are just looking to be entertained And Guilhem: Ex- exactly. Edward Sturm: writing to entertain them Guilhem: Exactly. It's exactly that. So you, you need to, yeah, story tell a little bit the thing.

Uh, don't put too much suspense for sure. You need to… The, the, the people who read your article need to be satisfied by it. If you have a clickbait title and you just, like, said nonsense and at the end it's disappointing, it's not good, okay? So you need to entertain, like you said, it's, it's really good thing to have in mind.

Uh, and be at the end, like, have some dopamine. You know what I mean? It's really think about Edward Sturm: feeling good Leave them feeling good You want to have a good ending Guilhem: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And this one, this way he can like, uh, click on the follow button next time he will saw it on the, on the Google Discover feed, so it's a strong signal. So it's really important to don't disappoint your audience Edward Sturm: You know what I see doing really well in Google Discover I see X posts all the time I see posts from Guilhem: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so Edward Sturm: often Guilhem: yeah. It's, um… To me, Google don't have any interest to send traffic to competitor.

I mean, X is not a competitor to Google, but a little bit, uh, because it's sent to Threads, so it's, uh, Meta behind it. Uh, so it's, it was weird to me at the first time. I was, " Why Google send traffic to them?" Uh, to me, it's for two reason.

User, because user want to have some, like, a mix and not only article, but also YouTube video, um, Instagram. Soon there was… I, I think there will be Instagram or this kind of post also. They tried the Web Story, you know, the video formats, uh, in the US with Web Story. Uh, it was a disaster because too many spam, but they try something like that.

Okay? So, um, uh, yeah. And why, uh, Google use it? I think it's because, uh, it's, it help us to understand the trend.

They help us to understand because the X algorithm is really good about the trending thing. So to me, it's like kind of reverse engineering, uh, for Google to see how people interact with news, with small accounts, with big accounts, et cetera. So it's really a thing like that, and to satisfy the user. Again, dopamine Edward Sturm: Do you know anybody who is specifically focused on Google Discover with X posts Guilhem: It's a bit recent, I think.

So I, I know a guy, a French one, uh, tried a lot of stuff with that. Uh, and also you know you can appear on the top stories, uh, in the search bars by page results. You can have an X account in the, like near the, the big news, uh, of the w- of the country. So there is tests to do with that.

To be honest, the only difficulty is the monetization part. How you earn money from that. It's Edward Sturm: have to you have well you have to you have to have viral posts that also sell your own Guilhem: Yeah, yeah Edward Sturm: the way that that's the way that you would do it Guilhem: Exactly. And how do you track that?

Because you don't have a search console for an X account, so it's a bit hard Edward Sturm: would be hard it would be hard to track but if you're getting that many impressions you will be able to notice spikes Guilhem: Yeah. for sure. For sure. So maybe, uh, I, I, I don't know if people, um, didn't notice, but maybe we have massive traffic from Google Discover also in X.

It's possible. Edward Sturm: That'd be cool Guilhem: Yep Edward Sturm: can you can you break down your your one emotion one promise headline formula Guilhem: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Edward Sturm: some examples Guilhem: Yeah, exactly.

So, uh, the title, forget the k- the keyword. You need to stop a scroll. Uh, so basically, you need to think it as a, a, a nook, a hook for social media. It's a bit like that.

So speak to your user, to your audience. Uh, don't say, for example, um, at what temperature a cat, uh, is cold. At what temperature your cat is cold or feeling cold. Maybe my sentence is not correct, but you, you get it.

Edward Sturm: Yeah Guilhem: Uh, so important, you talk to someone. Uh, and after, you need to, like I said, see if your audience is, is it old? Is it a woman? Is it more a man?

Is it more interested by this topic, this topic, et ceti- et cetera? And you can put word that work better for the, the, the brain of your audience. So for example, I know I, I don't have the, the translation of it, but for people in the, the football area, the soccer, uh, there is some word in French that always if you put it on the title, it's a bit like a keyword, but for the brain. It's, it's like, um, people like it, and they, they click on it because it's in their vocabulary.

Okay? So you need to think about the brain of your audience, not about the algorithm. Google don't watch your, your like keyword and title. Uh, so yeah, basically, you made a promise.

What is the benefit if I click? Because, uh, otherwise, if you just said, uh, something flat like an answer in the title, I don't need to click. So it's important to have some suspense. Don't put too much on that because if it's disappointing at the end, not good.

So always keep your promise. Uh, after that, you can also use, uh, some ingredient, for example, the quotes. It work really well. Like I earn, uh, I don't know, twe- uh, like a better salary than my medicine, and I don't have any diploma.

So if you put quotes, someone said that, you can use the I, so it, it's, uh, powerful as well. Uh, so there is like ingredient like that that are really powerful in a title for a promise. Uh, but always, um, like, yeah, uh, deliver what you promise. Very important Edward Sturm: Have you seen uh Google's focus on noncommodity content I don't know if you've if you heard them talking talking about it I'm I'm gonna pull up There was a slide at uh Google uh this Google Search Central Live Toronto event This was uh a couple of months ago and Google said they're starting to focus on noncommodity content and so they give examples of commodity versus noncommodity content So Guilhem: Okay.

Yeah Edward Sturm: content is top 10 things to consider when buying running shoes Noncommodity content is why this customer's shoes collapsed after 400 miles a wear pattern analysis Or like uh with real estate commodity would be seven tips for firsttime home buyers Noncommodity would be why we waived the inspection and saved 15000 a look inside the sewer line kinda sounds similar to what you're talking about Guilhem: Yeah, exactly. Uh, so it's, it's seems to be, uh, similar to listicle article, like top 10 film to watch during a Edward Sturm: Google was saying don't do commodity content Like Guilhem: Okay Edward Sturm: saying we're moving towards noncommodity content And so commodity content li listicles you were describing Guilhem: Hmm.

Okay. Edward Sturm: yeah Guilhem: Okay, Edward Sturm: do listicles are listicles doing well in Google Discover or no Guilhem: Not much, to be honest, because to me it's, it's remember Facebook in the, you know, 2005. Like it's Edward Sturm: I mem there was a there was a period where every Guilhem: Yeah, yeah Edward Sturm: blog every like Gawkerstyle blog was doing listicles Guilhem: Yeah, but I mean, there is trend there. There is trend because sometimes a formula work well during one month and after it, like too many people use it, so it doesn't work anymore.

So I think it's maybe because Google said that because they clearly see that it doesn't work, uh, anymore. So to discourage people to do that because it's… There is too many people doing that. A lot of people who try Google Discover will do that because they saw that and it's easy to do, et cetera. So I think it may be because of that.

So no, I, I don't do that much of this kind of article, to be honest Edward Sturm: are you familiar with uh with Ryan Holiday Guilhem: I'm not sure Edward Sturm: Oh he's this he's this really good author He wrote tr this book called Trust Me I'm Lying and which is Guilhem: Oh, yeah. Okay. Edward Sturm: Yeah Guilhem: Between the two Edward Sturm: he and he wrote this book Conspiracy um about Gawker and the f and like the f the downfall of Gawker And uh yeah the the the Gawker times were very interesting time in the media landscape I don't know how well you remember them Guilhem: Uh, I'm not sure.

Ca- can you be a bit more specific? I'm not sure I understood correctly. Edward Sturm: Like Gawker was this pop culture blog and they it got taken down because Peter Thiel uh uh I've Peter Thiel Oh no I think Peter Thiel funded Hulk Hogan to sue them and and and yeah and and and they were they would write anything They would write a lot of smear pieces and they were really good at clickbait titles Guilhem: Oh, yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. Okay Edward Sturm: And so but they wrote a lot of smear pieces and Peter Thiel th so basically uh Gawker I think I I I could get I could be like somewhat off on this but I think what it was was Gawker outed Peter Thiel as gay Peter Thiel just didn't wanna be outed he especially by like he want if he if he was gonna be outed he wanted to do it himself Um and so Gawker outed him and then they did something Gawker did something to Hulk Hogan I f I I forget exactly what it was but Peter Thiel was like This is an avenue to take Gawker down and to take like the rest of these smear niche blogs down And so Peter Thiel funded a lawsuit Hulk H secretly funded Hulk Hogan's lawsuit towards Gawker and uh killed Gawker And so it was like something like that The book uh the book is about that I read it a couple years ago It's really Actually I read it I remember the year that I read it I read it in 2019 Really really great book um super interesting times in in media for people who remember that Guilhem: Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I think it's specific to the US. This is why I don't know the Edward Sturm: Yeah yeah Guilhem: story. Interesting.

Yeah. Okay. May- the name ring a bell for sure. Edward Sturm: Yeah But so okay so what's what's the line between a magnetic discover headline and clickbait Guilhem: Okay, simple.

If you, um, like promise something that your content doesn't deliver, it's basically you, you waste people time, so that's not good. So let's say you said, "Okay, these, uh, these plants are, uh, the, the, the like way better vi- than, uh, um, lemon, uh, lemongrass." I, I don't know the name of it, you know, the famous plants for mosquitoes Edward Sturm: Oh Oh no I don't know the plant that you're talking Guilhem: Okay, let's say way better than this one. And in your article, you don't have any sources, uh, or the sources said that it's not - it's partially true, but not exactly, or this kind of thing.

So basically, if, yeah, if you lie, if you lie, if you don't deliver, uh, and you just take your reader for a fool, it's, it's not good. So you need to, to s- to, um… Like if yourself click and read the article, it's good. You're happy at the end Edward Sturm: Are there consequences to doing like let's say you just go hard with clickbait headlines Guilhem: Yeah Edward Sturm: it is Google is Google going to know Guilhem: Yeah, at some point because your, your watch time will be catastrophic.

Your, uh, like, uh, click on, uh, on the follow button will be catas- catastrophic as well. Uh, your CTR in the time decrease because people see your website, see your, your logo and just said, "Oh no, I hate this media," so you just pass. You know, you, you, you don't stop your scroll anymore. So it take time.

This is why some people, some spammer have this strategy. Uh, so you just put really, really clickbait content, and after one week or two weeks, the website is dea- is dead, but you just start a new one. Okay? So it was a strategy for, for a while.

Uh, not a good one. Edward Sturm: Does it still Guilhem: No. Edward Sturm: you're Guilhem: No, no. because Edward Sturm: there was a time where you could literally spin up a new blog and in a week start getting Guilhem: Yeah.

It - Edward Sturm: traffic Guilhem: to, to me it was always a bit crazy because with small websites, like with a website that I, I bought for some couples of hundred of dollars, uh, I made more traffic than some media. Edward Sturm: Oh Guilhem: Like real media Edward Sturm: people are buying actually like aged websites Guilhem: Yeah, not an expired… Edward Sturm: websites Guilhem: Yeah, not necessarily expired domain. It's a different thing, and I won't talk about that, but just a real one that you saw there is potential about Google Discover.

They don't know a thing about Google Discover, and you said, "Okay, I, I bought it because I know I can do way better in term of traffic if I have a proper Google Discover strategy." And at some point it was ridiculous because like I said, with a small website you can do the amount of traffic of a, a massive, uh, newsroom with journalists and stuff like that. So I always, uh, know it, it won't last because it, it was way too much. I think Google do- does that because they want to put some, you know, fresh creators, fresh, uh… It, it's like the, the YouTube channel or it's like the Instagram account and stuff.

You sometime needs to see some, uh, you know, small, um, influencer. It's really important for the diversity of sources, uh, for the fresh angle sometime they l- they, um, um, they, they, they bring too. So this is why, but now Google, I think, uh, won't repeat this mistake and they said, "Okay, it was way too powerful," so now they just cut a little bit. This is why with a small website, if you don't think about a brand, if you don't think about social media traffic and stuff like that, it's almost impossible Edward Sturm: It makes sense too because actual brands are more likely to play the long game and not Guilhem: Yeah, exactly.

Edward Sturm: shortcuts Guilhem: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's, it's less risky for Google. You know, he, he put his trust in your end. If, if you put your spammy website in a Google Discover, uh, at some point it was really a mess in a lot of country.

Uh, and yeah, Google just said, "Okay, we need to be a, a little bit harder with that." Um, but it, it was crazy. Like you can do… At some point I was at, uh, 100 million traffic a month on a website with like 100, uh, domain, um, referring domain. You know, a s- a small website, Edward Sturm: yeah Guilhem: small website, and I build Edward Sturm: getting 100 million a month Guilhem: A month, a month, and Edward Sturm: that's Guilhem: crazy, crazy.

I, I have some screenshot if I, I anonymize them so I can show you maybe at the end of the video or, or whenever you want. But yeah, crazy Edward Sturm: Yeah Um how important is the image compared with the headline Guilhem: Yeah, so you need to tell a story. The image basically, uh, it's big, bigger than the, the title, so you need to have like an emotional thing also. Like, um, it really depend on the content that you put in, but a human face work well because our brain is adapt to be triggered by, uh, the gaze of someone or the end like this or this kind of thing.

So if you manipulate them, uh, wisely, it could be really powerful. Don't put a, a face in every piece of content, that for sure. Uh, but you need to tell a story basically, uh, and not the same one as the title. Think like a YouTube thumbnail.

The title is never the same premise as, as the, the thumbnail. So you need to be complementary between the two. Something that work well also, it's blurry ima- image. Edward Sturm: Really Guilhem: counterintuitive, but an image that I take with my old smartphone, for example, sometimes the curiosity is way more powerful than a really clean, you know, image bank image.

It depend on the topic of course, but it work really well. So Edward Sturm: Oh that's super I I've I uh I made back uh I used to do this actually so everyone had like really great uh cameras to make uh to make social videos on and I was using an iPhone 8 Guilhem: Yeah, yeah Edward Sturm: the videos would pop man And it the it looked like it was shot on a potato And I I Guilhem: Yeah Edward Sturm: I wonder like should I revisit I still have my iPhone 8 It has like no battery but like kinda wanna try I kinda wanna try that That's that's Guilhem: Yeah, because, because it seem authentic.

You want to see authentic content. So, and w- now with the AI and stuff, it's way worse because everything is polished, everything is Edward Sturm: Yeah Guilhem: clean. Edward Sturm: true That's Guilhem: So, so it's, you different. If, if you are a bit different than the other, it's way better.

So, and it's typically the thing that I, um, I try to explain with the media outlet that I work with, like the Edward Sturm: I'm Guilhem: journalist… Edward Sturm: at I'm gonna try this This is Guilhem: Yeah, let me look Edward Sturm: to deliberately shoot worse quality which cheaper Like I honestly I'm considering just going and buying like 100 phone or something to try this because my Guilhem: Yeah, you Edward Sturm: 8 has like no battery and is like a com Guilhem: can do it.

Or an easier way to do it is, for example, let's say you talked about, um, an animal what was caught on a, on a camera and it's hilarious, for example, like by a hunter or whatever, uh, with a nature website, for example. Um, just find a video or YouTube video about that and just take a screen, but a locality one. You know, don't put your full screen, just, you know, screenshots. And because it's a real action, you know, there is some blur of the movement, there is some… You try to guess thing.

Don't put it everywhere, that's for sure. Like find the, the relevant title, the relevant story that you want to, to, uh, explain with the image, but it work really well. Um, be- because I think of the… Again, it's, it's the brain. There is a curio- a more curiosity there when you see a bank image, an, uh, an image for the bank, um, photo shoot, like it seem artificial, so you, you don't really want to click on it.

It depend on the topic, but yeah Edward Sturm: Yeah that's great cause I was gonna ask what should publishers do if they don't have like custom photography or design Guilhem: Yep. Edward Sturm: and it sounds Guilhem: Yep. Edward Sturm: they don't really need to overthink it They just need to actually have something appealing Guilhem: Yeah, exactly. And we, we provide the images because we have all the resource for that.

So we provide the, the - we help with the content. We work with journalists as well, uh, and we produce the images. We put the title, the good one, the, the, the, the best time to publish it, et cetera. So we do A to Z, um, publication process with all method, so we - they don't have to think about it.

We just propose images. They validate them, and we, we provide the image, basically. But sometime they said, "Oh, this image is too blurry. I can't put it on my website because blah, blah, blah.

I have some quality guideline, et cetera." Yeah, but your audience will like it. So sometimes, yeah, y-you, you need to think, um, about your audience more than your brands Edward Sturm: Yeah that's awesome Uh w we were talking about so s so small pub going back to like small publishers is there uh y you post every day um it uh like is it just post every day to get the initial audience traction to start getting mentioned in Google Discover and it's that simple Guilhem: If you, if you start from, from scratch, you definitely need some, uh, traction, some e-, some SEO.

So if you have, uh, an old blog, it's a be- better example than, uh, I will start a website from scratch. And to be honest, Google Discover, I always surprised why not… Like, in SEO, people want to have a recipe where they, uh, there are varies thousand of people, uh, explain how to do SEO. No one about G- Google Discover, uh, and it's way more Edward Sturm: It's true Guilhem: it always surprise me, like why you try to understand SEO and not Google Discover. Uh, and I think ju- just to, to put it in per- perspective, it's, it difficult.

So if you are beginner in term of SEO, if you are beginner in publishing, in website edition and stuff, you won't start with that, to be honest. So it's, it's not for beginner, but if you have already a website, an old one with some audience, that's definitely a better starting point. So your example was, was, was a good one. So if you don't have social media, for example, let's try one with some clicks on it.

For example, uh, Facebook is good because TikTok is good for the audience, but it's not good for deliver click. So you need to think, " How can I say to Google, 'Hell, my webs- hey, my website attracts an audience and not only a Google audience.'" So it's really important. And also, even if you don't get traction on Google Discover, you maybe discover that Facebook is good for your traffic, so you won't lose anything.

And after, like I do Facebook pages as, as well, um, it's… There is so many similarity, to be honest. So people who are, uh, good at, at Facebook, uh, for example, monetization and, uh, you know, drive big traffic through Facebook, have the brain for Google Discover already, so just need a website Edward Sturm: So does does like email or DMs or push notifications or homepage traffic help an article get Guilhem: Yeah. Edward Sturm: Discover Guilhem: a traffic mix. Exactly, a traffic mix.

You need, you need an, um, a signal. You need a signal, that for sure. So if you just publish and there is no audience on your website, whatever the, the, the method of your audience acquisition, Google don't care. It's not an interesting website because no one visit it.

So yeah, really important Edward Sturm: That's super important because it kind of it it talks also about just how much Google can see Because like people I think people underestimate the amount of data that Goo This is like going back to just SEO Guilhem: Yeah. Yeah, yeah Edward Sturm: just how much Google knows Guilhem: Exactly Edward Sturm: so it's like you're trying to you're trying to trick Google and you are not considering that Google is seeing all of this stuff It's seeing your referral traffic from all of these places It's Guilhem: It ex - Edward Sturm: it's it Guilhem: Yeah Edward Sturm: authentic patterns look like and inauthentic patterns look like Guilhem: Exactly.

This is why you need, you need to build an audience at some point. It could be a WhatsApp group, it could be a Telegram, it could be a newsletter, it could be push notification, it could be social media. Like you said, Google build like Chrome, Android, not for nothing, to have your data. And with this data, it understand your interest, it guess your interest, and this is why Google Discover is relevant because it, it guess what you want to read before you already search it.

So it's exactly that. And you can't really, um, like fool Google. I mean, you can for a short period of time. This is why spammer exists, existed.

Uh, but now it's really harder. Uh, so yeah, at some point you need just to, to think, "How can I attract a regular, a massive… not massive, but a, a, a decent amount of audience on my website to attract Google Discover after it?" And after the massive will be really, really massive when you do that. Edward Sturm: So now we're talking to a bigger blog and you argue that volume can hurt does publishing too much dilute discover performance Guilhem: Yeah, exactly.

So really important because if you publish a lot, you take the risk to just miss your audience, miss your target. And this is why it's, um, often a bad idea because if you publish one article a day, you have the time to really think about your angle, your title, your images, your CTR in the search console. You can see the, the, the CTR is really important metric, a KPI. Um, you can really, um, try to be, uh, at 10.

It's, it's a good score to, to have some 10% of CTR in Google scope, it's good. If you have like 1%, 2%, it mean you just, um, like miss the targets. So basically, if you do 100 article a day, you will have a ton of article with 1% CTR, and Google will said, " Okay, each time I put your article in my feed, you take a parking place, a parking emplacement kind of, uh, and you just miss the click. So I waste an opportunity to get more, uh, engagement on my app."

So it's disappointing for the audience, it's disappointing for the reader. Edward Sturm: so how about with a a Guilhem: Yeah Edward Sturm: about with like a blog that has several different writers and then they have the time So one one writer maybe is just doing an article a day Is that where Would it be okay in that case Guilhem: Yeah, it can. Uh, what I mean is if you increase the number, you typically, uh, take less care of the KPI. And so Edward Sturm: Yeah Guilhem: it's, it's, similar in Edward Sturm: you're saying you're saying if if for people who who p who publish too much you you tend to see quality decrease Guilhem: Exact - Yeah, exactly.

Kind of. Yeah Edward Sturm: if you have if you have several writers and the writer is just doing one a day that could be okay Guilhem: Yeah, that could be okay. Yeah, yeah, for sure. You can publish a lot if you are big media with a lot of journalists.

Sometimes they publish 100 article a day and it work, it work well. But there is, there is a but because if you take a core update in your face, so you lose, let's say 50% of your traffic, you need to, uh, publish less. And so if you hire a lot of journalists, uh, to publish this rhythm, like 100 piece of content a day, uh, how, how do you adapt? So this is why I always prefer to aim better with less content.

It work really, really well when Google like your website, and when you take, uh, a core update, it's still maintainable. You t- you can still do it, and you don't have to like cut half of your writer. You don't have to, you know what I mean, like, uh, be a- Edward Sturm: what have you seen from recent core updates Guilhem: Uh, yeah, but look Edward Sturm: getting prioritized or getting deprioritized Guilhem: So to me, the, the tame - the, the, the name core updates, it's not really, uh, appropriate because the algorithm don't ch- don't change, doesn't change that much.

The core of the algorithm is still the same. To me, for Google Discover, uh, uh, at least, um, the core updates make what I call the, a, a turnover. Like there is not many place on Google Discover feed. There is maybe in the same time 200 website, 200 different websites.

So sometimes they just said, "Okay, this website was under the spotlight." Now people needs to see a new name. It's the same thing in Instagram. For example, sometime you follow a, a creator, uh, you like the content, you interact with it, and after a while you don't see Edward Sturm: You get Guilhem: anywhere.

Yeah. Edward Sturm: Yeah that's true Guilhem: Because you get bored. So it's, it's always the dopamine process. So this is why people see huge increase or decrease during time.

To, uh, uh, give you a perspective, I talked with a big media, uh, not in France. They made at some point like 60 million click a day on Google Discover. Massive media, not a, not a small one at all. After the core update, one million a day.

Edward Sturm: Wow Guilhem: It's, it's like a real media, real journalist behind it, okay? They- Edward Sturm: how many writers did they have Guilhem: Sorry, Edward Sturm: How Guilhem: one hun- more than 100, Edward Sturm: Okay Guilhem: uh, something like that. So yeah, massive, uh, mighty, like, uh Edward Sturm: how And they were they must've been they mo they were monetizing I guess with AdSense and with affiliate Were they monetizing in any other ways Did they Guilhem: Yeah.

They, they have their own network at this point because when you have big media, you have, uh, a- ad X for sure, like with AdSense, but it's not the same technology. And you have also some, uh, you know, the, uh, a paywall, like people can, uh, get rid of the ads and et cetera. So hopefully they have some income with that. That's a good point.

But don't have only Google Discover traffic, but you can't have this amount of traffic with SEO. You can't have this with TikTok, Instagram or whatever. This is why I said Google Discover is the, the biggest, uh, traffic lever by far. Like you can do that Edward Sturm: the difference with SEO is you can have way more qualified traffic You can target you can target the types of people Guilhem: Yeah, because you choose a keyword so you can kind of guess what intention is behind it.

With Google Discover it's a bit harder. It's, it's not impossible though. Like I have some clients that only do leads, so they tr- they want to qualify the traffic and it work. Like you can have… So you, you aim less audience but more targeted, tar- targeted.

So on your title you put some, uh, stuff to if the people is not instre- interested by the offer behind it, they won't click. You don't chase million, you chase less. But still, if you have 1,000, uh, click a day, like, uh, 100,000 click a day with a lead form, that's a massive… Edward Sturm: very substantial Guilhem: Yeah, Massive income. Yeah Edward Sturm: that makes that makes a lot of sense It's similar it's similar to how pic you pick a niche on Instagram and then you and you monetize with it Guilhem: Yeah, kind of.

Yeah, exactly Edward Sturm: Yeah Uh is that was that your sniper approach or is your sniper approach something different Guilhem: No, the sniper ap-approach is really that. It's to publish less. Like let's, uh, put an example. Uh, I worked with some media, they publish, let's say 50 article a day, okay?

For Google News, for SEO, for whatever the lever, and they said, " Oh, Google Discover, I think it's, it, it's luck." Like we can't really know. Sometimes it's, it's, it's blow up. Sometimes it's not good.

But, uh, it's really strange to me. Like some people work, uh, 10 years in the media industry and just said, "Oh, to us it was only luck. We can't really have control on it." We just put one or two article a day, an extra one or two article a day.

We don't change anything about what they currently do, and we made - we double the traffic with only two article a day. Because we know with this audience, if we put this title, this publication time, this exact angle, we can repeat it, and we can just do steady traffic. Even if Google Discover is volatile, you can have Google Discover traffic every day, uh, that's for sure, with a proper strategy Edward Sturm: Yeah I'm gonna ask about about days of publishing in a second So we're we're we're talking about metrics and you mentioned CTR and average engagement time So yeah what metrics matter most So so we have CTR we have average engagement time we have returning users recirculation shares There's so many different things Guilhem: Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. I think you, you summarized it. Like, they are the, the best AI to, to have. So CTR, the most important one because it's, um, it's an… You can see if you talk to a good audience or better you can see if Google, uh, spread your article to a good audience.

So sometime if you said, "My website, website is about, uh, I don't know, like air purif-purificator," and I, I put a, an article about the, um, the, uh, home cleaning, your CTR is 1%. It could be your title, your images, or the, the topic itself. If you repeat it like a couple of time and it's always 1% CTR, it mean Google don't push the content to this audience, this interest, so you need to try another one in your Google Analytics. So really important.

This is why CTR it's, it's a good, um, a really good KPI. Um, the, the watch time, but the watch time, uh, relatively to the content length, so you don't aim like two minutes or three minutes because sometime one minute could be a, a good one. So more important the pogo sticking, uh, like if people come to your article and instantly go back because, for example, to me… Edward Sturm: They're not Guilhem: Yeah, like too many ads, bad storytelling, uh, this kind of thing, so it could hurt your websites.

Um, and yeah, the share is really important as well, but it's hard to track. Like the, the share on Google Discover and the share on, uh, for example, WhatsApp or stuff like that, people just sharing article with their friend, it's a really massive signal. It's same for Facebook or you, you, you know it, I think. Uh, so it's a, it's a really strong signal as well, but hard to, uh, measure.

So to be honest, the… I just concentrate on the audience and the CTR, it's already good if you, if you track this. And the important… Sorry, I forgot one. The, uh, the, the rate of, uh, entry on Google Discover. I call it the win rate, the win rate.

So for example, if you publish 10 article a day, how many have Google Discover traffic? Is it 100%? Is it 80%? Is it 50%?

A good number to chase is 80% minimum. If you have 50%, it mean there is not enough signal, there is a, a, a miss somewhere, technical issue, the angle are not good, uh, or the, yeah, the, the, the Google don't push your article, so there is a, an issue there Edward Sturm: How o how often do you see uh or publishers that are very stable with Google Discover As in they are they are not getting hit by algorithm updates They are just They are either increasing month over month or year over year or or they're just they're just getting a ton of Google Discover traffic and they're staying that way Guilhem: Hmm.

Edward Sturm: and and what do those what are those publishers doing right that other publishers can learn from Guilhem: Yeah. Uh, so that's a good question. Normally in Google Discover, like I said, there is a wave. Like it's volatile by AdSense.

You can make like two million traffic a day, and the day after only like, uh, half of a million. That's normal. That's normal because one article gets viral, another one a little bit less. But still, if you have a proper strategy, you don't have run and spike, you don't have day without and day with, and day without and day with, um, so you have kind of steady traffic.

Uh, you, you can say, "Okay, each mon- each month I do 20 million, 30 million medium." Okay? Uh, but after there is, there is, like I said, a, a turnover. So when there is a core update, you can lost like half of your Google Discover traffic.

So you do… You, you did, uh, let's say 10 million. Maybe you get, you got hit by a core update, you do half of it. So it's better to take the whole year in cons- in consideration, uh, because after next core update, you can go to the first point where you are. So basically, it's a six-month, uh, like rotation.

Uh, when a s- when a website is in, in the top on Google Discover, it's… The length is six months to one year without any perturbation. But at some point, every website, like I said, with my example, with the, the big, big media, uh, even a media like that have some wave like that. So the goal is to know it's normal. Like it's part of the algorithm itself, so don't expect to never have this kind of, uh, thing on Google Discover.

But still, even if you have this in consideration, you have Google Discover every time. Like you don't, you don't go to zero. You never go to zero. Uh, and people, uh, the media who I work with, uh, for five years now, they are always on Google Discover.

There is no zero day. So even if sometimes it's hard, you are in the desert, in the middle of the desert, you, you can earn back the algorithm, and if you take the whole year, it's still the biggest, uh, traffic sources by far Edward Sturm: Yeah but I imagine that publishers who who are stable are paying attention to things like trends trends in content trends in headlines trends in in images um trends in subject matter This is what people are talking about now versus what they were talking about before And and and you're actually like staying up to date with what people care about Guilhem: Yeah, it's really important because the trend can change.

Like, the user can be interested by something and after a while it won't work. So don't… Y- you need to follow your audience. Again, if, if you know what your audience are interested by, uh, you can choose topics wisely. So sometimes the, the… you can have a decrease on your Google Discover traffic.

It's not about Google, it's about you, but you don't understand your audience anymore. For example, let's take the gardening, um, audience. So if you put some article, uh, in the good timing for the, you know, the plantation of the thing, the, the, the, the how to grow this particular plants, et cetera, uh, if you continue with that during, uh, fall, for example, it, it won't work. So it's, it's a simple example to see y- you need to understand what your audience, uh, are looking for in this specific time.

Uh, so sometimes you need to change your, um, your routine to understand your audience and what they want. Edward Sturm: Do you Guilhem: I don't know if it answers your question. Edward Sturm: do you No that was I I yeah that answered my question Um but I actually uh this is an interesting question Do you think um so like SEO is easier if you're not doing it in English SEO is like so much easier if you're not in English Do you think Google Discover is easier in in other languages Guilhem: Yeah, so there is, uh, difference, uh, like competition markets.

And to be honest, it's, uh, there is a twist. The US is one of the simplest to me because, yeah, because… Yeah, because France, it's one of the other market for Google Discover. Like I said, I don't know exactly why. I think it's because, uh, of the black hat spirits.

So there is a lot of Edward Sturm: The black Guilhem: in Google… Edward Sturm: spirit Guilhem: Yeah, I, I, Edward Sturm: I Guilhem: I put it this way because to me it, it's one of an explanation because there is a lot of experts in Google Discover. I don't really see a lot of people… There is for sure, and I don't know everyone in the SEO sphere in every country, but there is a lot in SEO, uh, Discover experts in, um, in France. And I always saw some massive websites fro- pop from nowhere in the US, in Italy, in Norway, et cetera.

There, there was, like, always a French guy behind it. So I don't know why, but it's, it's, like, it's a fact kind of. So France, it's really hard, and it's doesn't pay as much as other country in Europe. So to be honest, uh, Italy is one of the easiest one.

I don't know why, but it's easy. Spain, it's not that easy because you target LATAM, Latin America, so Google is a little bit careful with that. Um, one of the best market to me is the US because the population is massive, uh, the RPM is massive, uh, so the traffic and the earning are massive. And strangely, like I said in my twist, I, I have so many call with media outlets, and they don't really take the… Like, they, they don't see that Google Discover c- can do 10 time your, their traffic.

So it's really weird to me. I, I don't know r- really why. Maybe I have an explanation. Maybe it's because SEO pay enough for media in the US to don't have to chase a new one.

And because in France the RPM is really, really low, if you just, um, monetize with display ads and you don't only have SEO, you die. So you have to move on. You have to find a new way to earn traffic. And maybe it's another explanation for why some countries, um, think Google Discover is really the thing to, to do Edward Sturm: Maybe they think it's too random like you were saying I think Guilhem: Yeah, even in France.

Yeah. Ev- even in France, I, I just had a call with a, a French group media, uh, a big one, and they said to… Like, they show me their search console, and I was… I, I show them mine, like the number I, I did, and, uh, uh, there was, there, there was like, oh, to me it was random. Like I said, they work in the media industry for 20 years, and they always, um, think it was, yeah, something they can't control. And I, I… It's really strange to me, but that's a fact.

So even in- Edward Sturm: they can't control That's a Guilhem: Yeah. Edward Sturm: a lot of people think that that's what it is Guilhem: Yeah Edward Sturm: order to control it like i i is uh publish multiple times a day Like if you're e even if if you're small like once a day If you're big 10 ti let's say about like 10 times a day A and and then but like really deliberately think about who your audience is Guilhem: Exactly. Yeah Edward Sturm: hooks and images for them Guilhem: Yep Edward Sturm: Yeah Uh how fast does Discover usually test an article after publishing Guilhem: Yeah.

So it's really important. Uh, it depend the where you are start from. So if you are already are on Google Discover, it can take one hour. So sometimes we work with a website.

They, for example, they, they did like 10,000 clicks a day in Google Discover, so that's good, but not, uh, that much. We start, we publish one article a day. The day after, we made like more than, uh, two, 200, uh, thousand clicks in one article and they said, "Okay, we didn't know we can do that." So it's really… It's not like SEO, it's instant.

If your article is not good, in maximum… Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's maximum three days. Sometimes with Google updates and stuff, there is some bug with that, so your article from three days can appear on Google Discover, but mainly it's, uh, in… We talked about hour or day, like Edward Sturm: are are there are there best days or hours to publish Guilhem: Yeah, it depend of your audience again. So for example, if your audience, uh, is interested by, uh, I don't know, movie, for example, uh, publish the, in the evening because people don't really watch movie during the like work hour.

So it's this kind of thing. So publish where your audience are and when your audience consume the content. Edward Sturm: And you said um and you said that a discover hit will last for like what Uh how many days did you say it was Guilhem: Yeah, it's typically three days. Edward Sturm: Three days Guilhem: Sometimes a bit more, like it can be one week, but it's typically three days Edward Sturm: How do you distinguish a normal discover fluctuation from a sitelevel problem Guilhem: Mm.

So again, it's take your average. Like if, for example, I, I always speak in term of live traffic because I spend too many time in with my phone checking the live traffic, you know, the how many people are currently in the website. So for example, let's said your, your range is between, uh, I don't know, 10- 10,000 and, um, 50,000 live traffic. It fluctuate between that.

If at some point you have only 100, like 100 of click of, of live traffic, hmm, that's weird. It never go that low. So I start to investigate when I see this kind of fluctuation Edward Sturm: And when when you do invest when you investigate like that what are some of the things that you look at Guilhem: Yeah, so technical thing. Is there, I don't know, like an ads, uh, issue?

Is there a, a loading issue? This kind of thing is the first thing I do. Is there an indexation, indexation issue? Uh, so technical thing.

Uh, or maybe is there an image on an article? Is there a bug where the image do- doesn't load for any reason? This kind of thing. Um, is there some, um, like, um, new competitor in this exact audience segment?

And is there a core update? That's for sure. You s- you… If there is a core update, you can typically expect this kind of thing to happen Edward Sturm: My last question is what should everybody go this week and do right now to get more traffic from Google Discover Guilhem: Hmm. So I think you really need to, uh, understand that Google Discover is not anymore for everyone.

So if you are a small website, a beginner in SEO, um, don't chase something too big because it's, it won't get results. I prefer to be, uh, really honest about that. But if you have a website established on a niche, you have traffic, like steady traffic, let's say at least one thou- one, uh, thousand a month minimum, you have Google Analytics, you can start do what I explained in the beginning. Check your audience.

If you don't have social media, create one. Try to transpose your Discover article to a Facebook strategy, and try to s- to do like, uh, like I said, to think audience, good title, good images, to have some traffic coming before Google in this piece of content. And normally you will have the Google Discover tab and after chase for the CTR. Edward Sturm: Potential is huge and people are overlooking it and hopefully this episode fixes that Guilhem: Yep.

Thank you. Thank you again for the in-invitation. I hope it was clear, and sorry my English is a bit rusty. I hope Edward Sturm: perfect Guilhem: thankful.

Edward Sturm: Guillaume Guilhem: you Edward Sturm: was it was perfect Where should everybody f where should everybody find you Guilhem: Uh, on Twitter. I talked a lot on Twitter, and I put, uh, a lot of examples. So if you want to do it to, to see what it, um… I, I even share some revenue example. Um, even if in France money is taboo Edward Sturm: are are the can can you share any revenue examples right now just uh off the Guilhem: Oh, yeah.

Edward Sturm: of your head Guilhem: Yeah, yeah. Uh, I have some, uh, I have some scree- screenshot that I can share to you. I can share my screen maybe. Edward Sturm: can share your screen Guilhem: All right.

So some example, I think it's, it's good to have some example to see… Okay. So here, for example, is, is it clear enough, the screen? Edward Sturm: This is Guilhem: Oh, yeah, a media, typically a media, a real brand, okay, uh, in the Netherlands that didn't know anything about Google Discover. We explained thing.

We said, "Okay, let's try." We, we start at this point, something like that. And so it was traffic that w- they never changed. Edward Sturm: for for people who are listening Guilhem: Yeah Edward Sturm: looking at 20 This is over the course of 12 months We are looking at 288 million clicks and 216 million impressions over 12 months Average CTR of 133 Guilhem: Exactly.

And you can see it's volatile, that's for sure. But still, you have between… You, you don't have a zero, a day zero, like I said. You always hit Google Discover and you have some, uh, like it's Netherlands, so it's only 20 million inhabitants. US it's Edward Sturm: Oh my Guilhem: 10 Edward Sturm: Wait this is Guilhem: time more.

Edward Sturm: is o this is only in the Netherlands Guilhem: Yeah, yeah, it's in the Netherlands only. Edward Sturm: my gosh Guilhem: So another one here… Oh no, Google just… Okay, this one was already established. That's a big website in France and we just start here. So we do - we just did a multiply by two the revenue and the traffic with half a million a day with a, a website, a, a thematic website Edward Sturm: And this is a lot less volatile This is pretty much just consistently up Guilhem: Yeah, because the range is a li- little bit less.

To be honest, if you put the, the big one, the big screen like I, uh, show it, it, it's always like that, big spike. It's normal. Okay? Uh, so what I can see… Oh, it's interesting.

This one is the, the recovery. So this website, first takeoff, here it was really good. Then search, Edward Sturm: not waiting working Yeah so what so what are you doing When are you What are you doing when you're like Guilhem: Yeah. Edward Sturm: I'm not getting any Discover Guilhem: So I, I, I explained everything there, so you can look at this thread, and I typically, uh, share this kind of content.

So if you are interested by, you, you can really have… Just to put it in a nutshell, um, you have to publish less because your return on investment will be not that good. So this is why. If you publish 100 a day, what do you do? You, you fire everyone?

So it's better to publish a bit less to… Doesn't like… Yeah, hire too many people, too many writer. Um, so publish less and aim better to the best seat here. Um, keep your best angle and just throw the rest to the dustbin. If it doesn't match, you, you kill it.

You kill your topic. Uh, and basically, after… Not the next curve date, this one we hope for a recovery. Not that good. This one, big bump Edward Sturm: And you said that you were gonna talk about revenue Guilhem: Yeah.

I have this. I keep the best for the, the end. The no inspiration. Edward Sturm: tell- you're, you're telling the story.

You're sharing the Guilhem: yeah, I try, I try to. Okay, a, a small teaser. In one day, it's this screenshot that I show earlier, so it's like, uh, yeah, uh, pi. I'm really bad with number in English.

Edward Sturm: So estimated, estimated earnings is thir- is €13,900 Guilhem: Per day. Per day, Edward Sturm: per day. Per day, yeah. and Guilhem: yeah Edward Sturm: page RP- RPM is €16.

21. Guilhem: Exactly. So in DORA it's Edward Sturm: was Wednesday, May 27th of this year. Guilhem: S- sorry?

Edward Sturm: And that was Wednesday, May 27th of this year Guilhem: Uh, yeah, exactly. Of this year. Yeah, yeah. It's screenshot.

It's exactly here, so you can see the, the date. So it was a little bit less than 1 million click a day. Edward Sturm: and, and the, the monetization strategy, can you say that again? Guilhem: Yeah, so it's this display, AdSense, only AdSense there.

Um, with some website we put AdSense and other, like for example, a video, um, video format, you can put a Taboola feed or this kind of thing. Don't put too much ads though, because if you do that, it's not good for the UX experience. So yeah, just take care of the, the experience of the, the user behind it. Oh, and okay.

So, and the, the best one for the end Okay. It was in one day Edward Sturm: Yeah. So, so you sh- so for people listening, Guillaume, you're sharing 52,000 euros in a single day from Google Guilhem: Exactly. Exactly.

And this month Edward Sturm: And this month is 506,000 euros, Guilhem: Yeah. Edward Sturm: yeah, from Google Discover Guilhem: And sometimes, so you can have these kind of clicks, like you see you have half a million click on search, you have 46 million click on Google Discover. This media didn't know a thing about Google Discover before. We just multiply, I don't know by how many, the, the traffic.

So if you stick to SEO, you can get maybe one million, two million if you have a really good SEO team. We just arrive with Ormedo, and we just blow it, uh, in term of revenue, in term of traffic. Edward Sturm: period Guilhem: Hmm. It was in… It, it was an odd way, an odd one, but it's a good ex- a good example because you can see there is SEO, like you, we explained at the beginning of the video.

Uh, but yeah, Google Discover, like you forgot about SEO when you have these kind of clicks. So yeah. Edward Sturm: Yeah, I Guilhem: again, Edward Sturm: it. This is so awesome Guilhem: yeah, really important, even this kind of website, you will have desert, uh, zone, so really important to keep in mind Edward Sturm: Guillaume, thank you.

Thank you so much again. Guilhem: No worries. I hope it went well for you again Edward Sturm: this was a great episode. This was, yeah, this was so much fun.

Um, all right, this is episode 1,088 of the podcast, 1,088 days in a row doing this show. thank you again to Guillaume for joining. Guillaume, I hope you will be back on to share some more case studies or cool things that you're seeing. Like, even if it's just, like, you wanna come on and share your screen and do a 15-minute breakdown, like, those episodes are so powerful.

People love those. So, Guilhem: Yeah, with pleasure. Edward Sturm: yeah. Thank you again.

Episode 1,088. If you watch this on YouTube, thank you so much for watching. If you listened on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, thank you so much for listening, and I will talk to you again tomorrow. Bye now.