An iGaming SEO Reveals How He Manipulates ChatGPT Recommendations

Edward Sturm: We are talking about manipulating AI with an SEO who spent years in the most competitive niches, iGaming and CBD. Leo, thank you for coming on the podcast Leo - Astrak: Yeah. Thank you, Ed, to invite me. That's super good, and I'm ready to talk about all the, you know, crazy tactics that we have been trying, experiencing and everything on, on GEO and SEO Edward Sturm: I'm super hyped.

I'm super hyped to hear what you're up to, hear some novel, interesting things. Can you, um, can you share your background? We were talking a bit right before this about how you - So you're in Thailand, you know all the, all the crazy SEOs out there, which is amazing. Um, yeah, can you share your background, how long you've been doing SEO for, some of the things you've done?

Leo - Astrak: Yeah, 100%. So, um, I started SEO 10 years ago now. Um, the first year I was in, uh, e-commerce. I was in, um, one of the biggest retailer in France, online retailer.

Uh, so I spent a year over there, and then I wanted to travel abroad, you know, and to learn English and to do everything. So I went abroad, and the one that offered me job was in Malta. Uh, and obviously in Malta you do a lot of gambling. So I end up in the gambling sphere, uh, because it was interesting for me, a lot of big budgets and everything.

So I spent two, three years over there doing SEO, then I moved to Thailand to continue doing that for two, three more years. And, uh, now it's like, yeah, three years I'm, uh, you know, alone doing my own journey and, uh, having my own company. Uh, still doing SEO, still doing GEO, sometime for gambling, sometime for CBD. So yeah, I spent like something six years in a big gambling affiliate company, uh, managing large team of SEO, big budgets, doing like crazy interesting stuff.

And now I, uh, I'm on my own setting up my own agency, my own company, uh, and yeah, doing clients work, you know. Edward Sturm: Right. This is gonna be, um, uh, this is gonna be a crazy episode. I, I know it's gonna be a crazy episode.

I'm, I'm excited. Um, yeah, so you wrote to me, uh, over email. Your pitch was basically you said that you're doing a lot of SEO experiments t- just for SEO, but also to influence AI. And so what, what are, what are you doing?

What are you seeing? Leo - Astrak: Yeah. So I think I start to go deeply into the AI influence, uh, I don't know, six, six, eight months ago, something like that, because start to be something for the clients. So I was like, yeah, I need to be on the edge of the new stuff, you know?

So I will do my research and development. I love to do research because, yeah, used to be black hat, you know, and black hat you need to do a lot of tactics, research, and everything. Uh, and Edward Sturm: Wait, sorry, sorry. You said… Wait, wait, wait, back up.

You said you used to be Black Hat, but you're still… Leo - Astrak: for GU, you Edward Sturm: Yeah, what is, what is this guy talking about? Leo - Astrak: Yeah. No, exactly, because I, I feel that I'm not really black hat anymore because the black hat tactic that we used to do, like, you know, CTR manipulation or, or like spam decks at large scale and everything doesn't really work anymore. So now for me, all the tactic that we're using, they, they kind of black hat for most of the people, but for me it's like too wider to be considered like full black and everything.

Um, and so what I've been doing on the last six months, so first, the first big discovery was obviously that, uh, listicle, uh, that you put on, uh, external websites tend to help you to rank really well. So the first big discovery for me, uh, was… That, that was an intuition. I test it and I get good results, so that was the first t- that, uh, the first thing that I did, um, is like taking one client, for example, um, let's say a CBD site, and putting a lot of different external website, best CBD, uh, best site to buy CBD in France, uh, top one, top two, top three, whatever.

You put your clients in the top and you distribute it to like, you know, several media. Uh, and uh, through time all this media, uh, tend to be picked up by ChatGPT. So typically it's because every time that people search like a solution or whatever, ChatGPT tend to go for best type of article with listicles and everything, and they will pick different results and this type of stuff. So this strategy typically is the strategy that we have been doing a lot, you know, uh, for the last six months that tend to works really well and, uh, that was really, really interesting.

Uh, recently I'm starting to get into Reddit as well a little bit. Uh, so Reddit was not really interesting for me like six months ago because it was not so important for the French market. Uh, but recently, uh, and ChatGPT and Reddit is taking a bit more, uh, importance and synergies in France. So now I'm, I'm getting, uh, my, uh, toes deep into Reddit, you know, uh, using external provider most of the time that have like, you know, warm account and everything to go some ninja posting directly on the threads that matters and everything.

So yeah, that's - I will say that's the two big thing that we have been working on in term of, um, AI manipulation and that tend to works really well for us right now Speaker: This method of marketing is so effective, I had to make sure it wasn't against Google's rules before I kept using it. It's a form of SEO I call compact keywords. Whereas most SEO focuses on putting up articles to answer questions how, what, when, compact keywords focuses on putting up dozens of pages that sell to searchers who are actually looking to buy.

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You don't have to do anything, and you're going to gain a six-figure SEO level employee just by having them go through this course." Compact Keywords is about setting up an SEO funnel that brings you sales for years and years and years. It works with AI, it's less work than traditional SEO, and it makes way more money. You can get it now at compactkeywords.

com. Back to the podcast. Edward Sturm: All right, so listicles on other sites. Walk, walk us through how you're getting, uh, one of these best listicles on an external website.

So the p- if people at home who wanna do this, they wanna do this themselves for their business, what are you doing to, to pull it off? Leo - Astrak: Yeah. So the first important thing I will say is that you need to have a media or website that is, like, strong enough to rank on Google, you know, because you don't want a listicle, a best article listicle that will be, uh, you know, not indexed or, like, in, in the depths of Google and not be ranking. Because entry GPT will rely on Google, will check with the, uh, Google algorithm to check like, you know, uh, what is ranking on certain keywords and whatever.

So, uh, in the end, you need something which is strong enough. What I do generally is that I use the classic, uh, backlinks marketplace that we have, you know, uh, on our end. Uh, one leg that I have is that I, Edward Sturm: What what is what is a what is a marketplace? It's your own?

Leo - Astrak: Yeah, so I, I have my own, so that's good because I can use on my own, but you can use on different external marketplace. I will cite several, so like that everybody will have their share, you know. Uh, but typically my own is Linkavista, and we have a lot of French site and now developing crazily on international website. You have Presswiz that is managed by Charles Floate, for example.

That is a good backlink marketplace. You have Whitepress, which is gigantic as well. So yeah, a lot of different backlink marketplace. And then what do we do is that you search on that marketplace.

I use another tool, which is called Link Finder, so link-finder.net. This tool is really good because it allow you to, uh, compare all the prices on all the different marketplace. So, you know, you pull out all the data from all the different marketplace.

You have like, uh, infinitely different, uh, you know, websites they can choose from. And then what I do generally is that I will take the media and the websites that are below 300, 400 euros, you know, because above that generally I find it a bit too expensive to do manipulation like that. Um, Edward Sturm: What do you mean? What do you mean it's too expensive to do manipulation?

Leo - Astrak: Yeah. I mean, like, because generally I will push, for example, let's say on a, on, on the cheap clients, like five, 10 articles, you know? And so if you have something that is generating a lot of money to manipulate and that is super, um, how to say that, uh, competitive, you will need, you know, expensive stuff. You will need like, you know, 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 euros type of articles.

For cheap clients, you don't need that. Uh, like 200 euros type of article would works really well. Um, so really depend on the price for the level of competition that you have. Um, and then generally you will have like all the classic - I- if somebody is selling backlinks, you can buy him a listicle, you know?

Generally it will be okay to sell a listicle because he was already selling visibility and SEO type of stuff, so it will be super okay to, to sell listicle generally. And so, yeah, I source them like that. Um, I filter them on, on price and metrics, and generally the metrics that will interest me the most is the number of, uh, of top three keywords that the, the, the traf- the website have, uh, because I think it's the best correlation that I have with the capacity of ranking of a website overall.

So I go for Edward Sturm: Was it… Yeah, say that a- say that a- say that again. To the, to figure out, like, uh, are you, you're looking, like, what stats are you looking for with the websites that you're placing these listicles on? Leo - Astrak: Number of, um, generally I look at the is it a like, um, uh, how to say that, uh, general blog, you know, a general topic, or it is like specific topic. So that's like the first filter I Edward Sturm: So you want a you want a specific topic Leo - Astrak: Not, not, not, you know, I'm not obliged to go for just that, but, uh, I will have different filter for general and different filter for, for specific topic, you know?

Uh, I think that a strong general website, strong media website, it will rank easily, you know, on, on, on most of the queries. So generally I go to that. It's like the same strategy that you will use for parasite at the end. Um, so typically I go for big website, uh, overall, and, um, if I can go for a general website, I will check the number of m- of keywords that it has on the top three, you know?

Because it's - I think it's right now the metrics that will correlate the best with, um, the scale to rank a new guest post, you know, that we'll Edward Sturm: Are you are you, looking are you looking at rankings over time to see if it's decreasing or increasing, if it's steady? Leo - Astrak: Yeah, um, to be honest, no, because I'm lazy, but I should. Uh, but, uh, yeah, it's something that you can look into, especially if it's, like, declining super sharply, you know? Uh, but overall, if your website have, like, really, I don't know, several thousand of top three keywords, generally it's okay.

You know? Even if it's declining on the type of query I'm manipulating right now, it's acceptable. Uh, obviously, if you go, like, su- on super, you know, big queries, um, like, I don't know, best, best gambling website or type of stuff like that, uh, obviously it will be super hard with, like, you know, declining trends or, or, like, cheap guest post overall. It will not work, except if you are, like, in a, in a super niche markets, but, uh, overall it will be, it will be more complex Edward Sturm: Okay.

Uh, and then what, what do the, what do the best listicles look like? So there's, there's many different ways to write them, and then there's ways that people say work and that don't work. I've seen, I've seen… Yeah, so, like, are you linking out to com- here's, like, here's a question: Are you linking out to competitors? Are you focusing… Is the top portion where you place your, your client number one, are they getting something bigger than the rest, or does it kind of look all even in terms of, like, spacing and amount of text?

Are you writing neutr- neutrally, or are you writing… I- is everything, uh, like, really… Are you writing with a lot of hyperbole, where it's like, "This is the absolute best. You're never gonna get anything like this anywhere else." Like, so yeah, how are, how are y- how are you doing it? Leo - Astrak: Yeah.

So, um, several specific on that that is super interesting. So first of all, um, what I do generally is that because I go through the classic link building way, you know, I always include a link to my clients. So like I, I have the benefit in SEO and in GEO, you know, it's like kind of double-edged sword and give me like double, um, uh, rentability, on the budget. Uh, so that's the good thing I will say.

Uh, then in term of copywriting, what I do generally is like first I need to have some like strong comparison type of keywords included in Edward Sturm: Wait, so you're linking - Sorry, you're linking to your client, but are you linking to the other companies listed? Okay. Mmhmm Leo - Astrak: No. Edward Sturm: Mmhmm Leo - Astrak: Um I will tell you some intuition that I have right now of stuff that can be less working or stuff like that I'm not 100 sure on all of that but for example I felt that recently my listicle are a bit more less powerful like weaker because or I put my clients number one everywhere or I link my clients I think that the two main stuff that can be you know problematic and perhaps if I was not linking it would be stronger I'm not Edward Sturm: Leo, Leo, I'm gonna- yo, I'm gonna t- I'm actually gonna tell you, I haven't talked about this on the podcast before.

I literally saw, this was, uh, with Claude, and so you, you like, you see Claude's thinking when it does a query fanout. So it's, it's… And, and it literally said, "Filtering out SEO spam." The exact language that it used was, "Filtering out SEO spam." And, and I, I like, um, I saw, this was many months… I, oh, man.

I think it was Mark Williams-Cook who, who shared this on LinkedIn. Leo - Astrak: Yeah Edward Sturm: I'm not, I'm not certain that it was him, but I, uh, but it was him or somebody else shared a really good write-up about when you're, when you're doing self-promotional listicles, you wanna link out to every company that's mentioned. You want to write in a, i- in like a really, in, in a, an authoritative but not hyperbolic way. So you're not writing… It really sounds, it sounds neutral.

That's the like the right word to describe it. The writing sounds neutral. Uh, it sounds, it actually sounds like you're trying all of them. And, and then you're, you're not giving more space to the one who's, like listed number one.

And you can see, like a company like ClickUp, I don't know if you heard what happened to, like ClickUp, this like soft- software, the Sa- the SaaS. Leo - Astrak: the self uh serving Edward Sturm: Yeah, they, they, yeah, they, they published thousands of these self-promotional listicles, and uh, their sections were so much longer than every other section. They gave call to actions to their own product throughout the rest of the article. So it's like, imagine that they're listing a competitor, but they give a call to action to ClickUp, like right, right underneath.

They were literally doing everything wrong, and they lost all their traffic. And it, but, but just the fact that with Claude, seeing Claude's thinking, and it says, "Filtering out SEO spam," I think that is so that is so major. Now, I'm not sitting here saying, like SEO is different from GEO, because I don't believe that it is. I think good SEO is going to get you the best GEO results.

But it's, it's super interesting to see, and I haven't talked about that on the podcast before Leo - Astrak: Yeah no I I totally agree on you and I really s I'm seeing you know in the last I don't know one month two months something like that different way that the stuff is like filtered definitely you know And sometimes it's something that I think uh Lily Ray talked about that as well that they are like taking the listicle removing the number one and putting the number two you know instead and like Edward Sturm: Whoa Leo - Astrak: the listicle using all the different sources and being like Yeah number one Edward Sturm: Whoa, that's funny.

Leo - Astrak: So yeah like new strategy coming of like putting your clients only number two every time It's like yeah new new trick you know new algorithm new trick to to discover and to and to manage So Edward Sturm: but I also think it's consensus because if you're number one on everything that's showing on the query fan out, then it's gonna also be fine Leo - Astrak: yeah yeah No I 100 I 100 agree with you on that It's like it's definitely about consensus And you have if you have only like one ranking where you're number one and you know you don't appear on any other ranking you will have way less visibility in GEO overall than if you are like number two everywhere for example Because it will take the the consensus and different voice to be sure that you know quantity matters a lot for GEO Edward Sturm: Hmm.

Okay, so, so okay, then describe to me what, like, the optimal self, self… Or, or the optimal listicle on another site. W- like, let's say you're not lazy. Would you… 'Cause you said, you said they're being like… Okay, if you're doing this, like, purely by the book and you wanna tell, like, a, a, you wanna tell someone how to do it perfectly, what would you tell them? Leo - Astrak: Yeah so generally you need to have like H1 and and and title really comparison oriented So you need some best type of stuff some top top X you know whatever And you can have like a lot of different keywords So generally what I do is like best for example best top 10 best SEO agencies uh honest and reliable comparison of 2026 you know something like that So Edward Sturm: Really interesting.

So you're putting, you're putting top 10 and best in the page title. Leo - Astrak: put everything you Edward Sturm: gosh, you're going crazy. Okay Leo - Astrak: That's my gambling affiliates you know that taught me that you need to Edward Sturm: Do you think Leo - Astrak: much comparison Edward Sturm: Do you think, um, do you think the SEO that you do for iGaming is… I, I, like, so something that I think about is like, what if you were purely going like, not purely white hat, but like let's say gray hat?

Because, yeah, if you were like going gray hat in, in iGaming, do you think you could still build a really killer brand? Leo - Astrak: Yeah you can Uh Stake did you know in some pa They were like not not super black hat you know not super white hat either but they were not like What they build is is brandbased you know But the problem when you go brandbased and and kinda grow it like they did is that you need the craziest budget ever you know Because you work on different complete marketing channel and everything So can do it but uh yeah you need to buy links still You know That's that's something that is mandatory But except that um you can you can just build a bigger brand you know and have like some good SEO traffic It's okay but the budget that you need is like so crazy that it's Edward Sturm: Yeah, but what I'm, what I'm saying, like, I, I - and, and, you know, I don't have the answer to this, so I'm just suggesting.

It's like, okay, let's say, let's say you're in roofing, and you a- you're doing, like, top 10 best roofers in Austin. What's gonna have, like… I'm, I am just genuinely curious what's gonna have a higher click-through rate in the SERPs. Would you - Would it be top 10 roofers in Austin, top 10 best roofers in Austin, best 10 roofers in Austin? Like, what's, what's actually… A-and, and I don't, and I don't know.

Maybe you have, like, an insight there. Maybe it is top 10 best which is actually going to have the highest click-through rate, and I wonder what it is. Because you, you still… Yeah, click-through rate is so important Leo - Astrak: for me to be honest it just uh the reason why including too much keywords in the H1 title is that Edward Sturm: The, the target the query fan out more. Leo - Astrak: yeah Edward Sturm: Yeah.

Leo - Astrak: for now and target a different Edward Sturm: And yeah. Mmhmm Leo - Astrak: you know overall So because you have the query for now that you think that will be and uh sometime it change and generally like GPT and and Gemini and everything will tend to mimic yeah or m people tend to change queries and everything So Edward Sturm: could also do, you could do best roofers in Austin and then a vertical dividing line and then top 10 and then… Yeah. Yeah Leo - Astrak: I I give you one example but you can The most important stuff is just to have like top best you know roofers and and as much keywords as possible and some stuff like honest and reliable It's something that Edward Sturm: Oh, honest is good.

Honest is good, yeah. Honest, reliable, first-hand experience. Leo - Astrak: Yeah yeah Edward Sturm: I actually, I actually tested all of these. Leo - Astrak: well Edward Sturm: Have you ever experimented with… I, I had on, um, Mike, man, I can't remember, uh, his last name.

His, he, he's, he goes by, I think it's, uh, SEO Pub, and he wrote this really interesting article, article about how he makes really, really long page titles, and I had him on the podcast to talk about that. And he will write page titles that are, like, I think he said, like, uh, like 200 to 400 characters or something for, for, like, really long page titles. And what he said was Google just picks out the part that's gonna have the highest click-through rate Leo - Astrak: Yeah Yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah and that's interesting Uh I think depends if you have like a really long H1 as well because if you have like super short H1 and super long title I think it will sometimes will just erase the title and take the H1 But um yeah for a while I was doing like 90 characters because I want to go for the you know big limit Sometimes you can go and three line on mobile and everything And yeah for a while I was doing 90 and after when it start to have the rewriting generally I just stick to like shorter title overall to avoid the rewriting because rewriting you you miss the you know uppercase and everything and I I it feels weird for me So yeah I'm I stopped doing that However I stopped completely doing meta description as soon as the rewriting start because I was like you know if if it's writing if it's rewriting like of the meta description it means that we write bad meta description or we want to push something else I don't know So I just uh yeah Especially on content website On ecommerce I think you can still do meta description but on content website it think it it's not really interesting anymore Edward Sturm: Yeah, a lot of people don't do meta descriptions.

So okay, you're doing, you're doing, uh, best top 10, uh, CBD oils, right? Is that what you're doing? Leo - Astrak: yeah Edward Sturm: Okay. And, and that's the page title.

That's… What do you have for the URL slug and the H1? Leo - Astrak: But uh uh I traditionally I I don't copy exactly the same I do something which is more like you know human readable uh and uh and I go for something more human So typically like top 10 perhaps not top 10 best but I will take the top 10 best Perhaps I will do top 10 best on the H1 as well Top 10 best oil CBD CBD oils via inference something like that I can do something like that Perhaps I will not put the country and the year definitely not in the H1 I will put them in the title but generally I will take the same you know type of keywords I will put less obviously to be less pushy than on the title But um yeah kinda same sentence a bit pushy a bit clear uh on human reading Then generally there is like a a an intro which is like super super short There's just one line to explain what will be overall in the page Uh so you know you will read something like about the top 10 describing the top 10 of this industry whatever Um generally I have like a super sh uh short like top 10 directly in the So or I do table or I do list The best I think overall is the ordered list you know uh in HTML directly And then I put the top 10 like top 10 in brief you know brief brief reader summary of the top 10 and you have the top 10 And generally I put every time like a oneliner of the the sentence you know what is the this is the best for this type of people or they're really good at that you know that is their main um uh USP et cetera et cetera Edward Sturm: So you wanna give, you're giving the answer right there basically above the fold because, and that's what people want.

They wanna get the, uh, people don't wanna read the entire list of clothes. They wanna get the answer right there and move on Leo - Astrak: Yeah yeah exactly And then if they want to go further you have a further article you know But you you can provide the description really right away I think one good point as well is that sometime ChatGPT will be lazy and it will catch up on this table or this list It will be like That's interesting I don't need to like you know process the whole article and it can just cite that you know and use this list So if it catch on your listicle and be like Yeah I I want to go on this list it can be on this list you know only and and publish this list and promote this list only Then generally you have like one Or I go for H2 directly for one solution So for I will give you example But uh H2 CBD oil one uh another H2 later on CBD oil two et cetera Or I'll go for one H2 which will be like complete comprehensive um uh best uh CBD oils uh rankings something like that And then I will have like H3 CBD oil one H H3 CBD oil two et cetera et Edward Sturm: Interesting.

Leo - Astrak: Yeah Edward Sturm: So you're saying, Wait, wait. So basically you, you start the list with the, like, third H2? Is that what you're saying? Leo - Astrak: No no no no It's like um how to say that Um for the structure of the page or I put in each H2 a solution you know uh um a a product that I'm trying to promote in the listicle or I start with um a big H2 which will be something like best CBD oils compressive rankings and then I go for H3 for each solution and each oil that I will be promoting Edward Sturm: Wait, so you're saying that each one in the list is an H3 and not an H2?

Leo - Astrak: Oh H1 in the list No no no That uh the each on the list on the overall list there is so how I do So there is two possibilities let's say I put so I put my intro My intro is just a short list and and one line you know And after I will start my my article like the the complete listicle And the complete listicle so you have already your H1 at the top which will be like you know full best listicle whatever Um and then you will have like H2 to start your listicle to start the complete description of each products Edward Sturm: Yeah.

So, so, uh, that's, yeah, let's, here, let's g- let's give an, let's give an example in, in, like, roofing. 10 best roofers in Austin, that's the H1. And then y- and then you have, like, I don't know, you write a one-sentence intr- introduction, Leo - Astrak: Yeah Edward Sturm: the first H2 is your number one pick for the best roofer in Austin. The second H2 is the second pick f- yeah, s- and that's how you're doing it Leo - Astrak: that's that's one version Other version that I can do as well is like H2 will be comprehensive ranking of the top 10 you know roofer in uh in Austin and then I will have H3 and then I will put roofer number one H3 roofer number two et Edward Sturm: Oh, wow.

So what do you think works better? Leo - Astrak: I think that uh to be honest I don't know I shouldn't Edward Sturm: Does it not matter? Leo - Astrak: I I think it doesn't really matter because Edward Sturm: Okay. Leo - Astrak: Yeah I don't I don't think it Edward Sturm: Okay, so we're getting stuck on something that doesn't matter.

Leo - Astrak: yeah Edward Sturm: Yeah. Okay Leo - Astrak: yeah yeah Um and then generally I still have a little bit more space and a little bit more talking about the number one a bit more than the number uh Like generally the number one will be something like 400 words and the last one will be something like let's say 250 you know 200 words 250 something like that And it will be decline the number of words will be declining through the stuff So you have more emphasis on the first one because it's the more interesting and you have like more stuff to talk about and the last one will be like kinda to complete the list but uh still with a little bit of um of words and and description about it So yeah it's let's say talking less and less and less and less but more in a logical way of like yeah because it's the last you don't need to talk so much about that Edward Sturm: You're doing Reddit manipulation.

Where do you buy your accounts? How do you decide if a, if an account is worth messing with, and then where do you buy your upvotes? Leo - Astrak: Right now I'm using I'm using freelancers to do Reddit manipulation because it's like for me it's so complex to do Reddit manipulation Every time I tried I I just messed up you know It's so complex Uh and all the people that I have been working with I think they build up their own account because like buying um already aged account seems like know not really working or every time you get scammed or stuff like that Um and Edward Sturm: Are these people… So do, are these people, how do you find these people?

Leo - Astrak: Yeah I I tr I tried so much I tried so much Edward Sturm: I I I did it I did it. I literally spent a year learning Reddit mani- Reddit manipulation. It was the most exhausting thing, gave me so many… I'm pretty good at it now, but it was the most exhausting thing, and, um, yeah. And I, I wouldn't wanna, I wouldn't wanna, like, spend a lot of time doing it as well.

What? Leo - Astrak: do you I I don't have a year to spend trying to do it you know How do you do it What what is your Edward Sturm: Oh, you have to w- Leo - Astrak: the r the secret of the recipes Edward Sturm: No, I mean, it's just you have to, um, you h- first of all, some subreddits are just, it's very hard to do it in. Leo - Astrak: Yeah yeah Edward Sturm: and but, but it's like you have to, you have to know how to have, have accounts that don't look suspicious. Leo - Astrak: Mmhmm Edward Sturm: you have to know how to buy the right amount of upvotes for, um, for different, uh, subreddits, because it depends on the subreddit.

Um, you have to… L- And, and I was, like, hyper-paranoid when I was testing lots of different services as well, because if you give your… 'Cause y- look, if you, if you're giving, like, a credit card with your name n- then, and, and, and you're, and you happen to find, like, a honeypot, then you're, then, then you're screwed. And so, um, y- like you have to, you have to, like, really be careful. Like, I was always paying in crypto. Uh, and k- so it would always be anonymous.

Um, yeah, I was using anonymous email addresses, paying anonymously with crypto. Um, and, uh, it, and yeah, there's like, uh… And, and then, and then also, like, f- figuring out who's g- who's selling, like, good accounts and stuff, and that part is really, really hard. That part, uh, that part is really exhausting, really hard. Accounts get clapped left and right, and it's, it honestly, like, it's not… I actually think, um, and, and it's a lot, Reddit manipulation is a lot harder, harder now too.

Like, for people who wanna do Reddit manipulation, what I would advise is have your own account, um, or, like, several acc- oh, and then you have to switch, uh, switch IP addresses, and remember to switch IP addresses, and you wanna, it, honestly, it's even better to have different devices. It's, it's r- and you wanna c- and then you have to keep track of everything in spreadsheets. Uh, it's really a pain. And so what I would advise is, um, have your own accounts, and, and honestly, like, just do it very, very, very, very, very sparingly.

Because, it go- trying to go hard with Reddit manipulation is a waste of time. You are way better off doing white, mostly white hat SEO, or maybe, like, some gray hat SEO with your own property, building it up over time so it can rank for anything, and, and then, and then doing that. And that, you will be so… And then trying to make a good product and having good customer service. Or e- even if your product is bad, but you have good customer service, people will still say nice things about you, or at the very least, they won't say bad things about you.

And so, uh, like, uh, but if you have a, if you have a decent product and good customer service, people will go out of their way to recommend you on Reddit for you. It, like, it's, it, it… So, it, it, I think it's like pick your battles, focus on the right things, and I think, a- and I would say focusing on Reddit manipulation is not… There are, oh, there actually, there are some, there are services though, like, um, I f- I forget the, I f- I, I forget the name of it. There's, th- but there are services where you can literally just buy comments.

So you can buy Reddit comments. It's not, uh, it's not Reddit posts, but you can literally buy, like, Reddit comments from c- from comments that are- Just posting all over. I'm, I'm… Have you used those? A friend of mine was, was sending me that Leo - Astrak: I use uh I use one service that uh that is funny Um so I used to do a lot of CTA manipulation based on uh micro workers So what I did one time is that I went on a thread So because that was too spammy that was my main issue But the interesting thing was like I pulled a Google Sheet with different uh you know comment that I want on different uh Reddit uh places and I submitted directly to microworkerscom So like that you don't need to set up the account and to do whatever You just hope that the guy have a clean account you know to do your your comment on one different specific uh Reddit thread et cetera So it's interesting The most The biggest problem is that most of the micro workers they don't have like active you know Reddit accounts so most of the stuff is is gone But because you pay like something like 10 or 15 cents per comment it's it's not such a big deal and you can scale them a little bit So yeah it was a funny thing to do with micro workers And I remember the Reddit thread that I was bombing being like suspended and having a lot of different stuff like you know deleted deleted deleted Uh I have one question for you on uh Edward Sturm: Wait, wait.

Oh, I found, I found it. I found it. Yeah. So, so a friend sent me, um… It's called Crowd Reply.

I haven't used it. And, and this person… So, so with Crowd Reply, and again, this is not me endorsing it, I haven't used it. Like, be careful if you try it, but you can just buy, like, actually, like, Reddit comments. So, like, you see a thread that you want to be in, and, and then you can buy a comment when, in, in that thread.

Um, again, I haven't, I haven't used Crowd Reply. Uh, and, and I don't… And to be fair, like, I'm not going hard doing Reddit, Reddit manipulation, um, because I, like, there's just better things for me to focus on. Like, another good thing to focus on is, like, putting out great content every day on Instagram and on YouTube. And, and that, and that really compounds like cr- that compounds like crazy.

That's way better to do. But, um, yeah, so that's what I was l- just looking, and a friend had recommended, uh, that service. Uh, what was your question? Leo - Astrak: I have in the on Reddit penetration So I have one client in uh AI girlfriend where we are doing great stuff and everything but there is like this one Reddit thread you know which is ranking like crazy and obviously nobody has to be like you know doing uh athlete marketing or whatever on on on this subreddit But you have like one big thing which is obviously big athlete marketing and I'm wondering it's so visible I'm wondering if you know the moderation is just bright you know and and people just pay the moderator Edward Sturm: Oh, that happens.

Leo - Astrak: this Edward Sturm: Sure, all of, all that stuff, all that stuff happens. Y- I mean, you know what else people do, is they make their own subreddits, and they build up their own subreddits as well. Like, it Leo - Astrak: it takes so much time Edward Sturm: it, takes, it takes so much time, but, but it can be like… Or you can, or you can buy other s- you can buy subreddits. People, that's against the rules, and, and we know, we know people who w- we, we, uh, we have mutual friends of people who have done that.

And, um, it, but it's against, it's against the rules. Uh, actually, I had somebody come on this show saying that this person bought, uh, a subreddit. And then w- and then after the show, we had to cut that out of the show because this person was l- literally exposing themselves for d- for, like, they could get in a lot of trouble. They could get their subreddit banned, and then all that money is going down the toilet.

Um, but, uh, yeah. But you could, you could buy your own subreddit. You can make your own subreddit. You could build up your own subreddit.

Lots of people prefer to build up their own subreddit, and if you do that, you have this incredible asset. But it's like, it, it's the same with all things. If you spam it, then it's, it's not gon- it's gonna stop being valuable. If you have, like, w- if you have, like, if you're ClickUp, and you spam self-promotional listicles, it's gonna stop being valuable.

It's like, it's the same, it's the same thing. Um, the… You know what? We, when Lily Ray came on the show, th- I, like, uh, I asked her… Uh, I forget. I, I said, like, "W- why are websites getting… If you were to generalize how, like, webs- why websites are getting hit, what would you say?"

And she said, "Too much SEO." And that's, I think that's, I think that's really exactly it. It's too much SEO. And the best SEOs know how to do SEO without it looking like SEO.

That's why I'm really good at SEO, because I know how to do SEO where it doesn't actually look like SEO, and that's where, that's where it's really the best. Uh, that's like Leo - Astrak: SEO are too much into checklist you know Generally SEO are like Yeah you need to do that you need to do that you need to do that et cetera and at at the end you don't look natural at all and it's something that you know end up playing against you And uh yeah I totally agree and especially I think that being super SEO focused was something that was like really you know uh beneficial in the last 10 years or something like that or like 10 years ago more Uh and the last three four years you know after after helpful content update and everything was really more being like not not looking like SEO You know Acting like doing all the channel of acquisition focusing on other stuff and being sure to have like a you know um a multichannel acquisition that Edward Sturm: multi-channel Leo - Astrak: that Google trusts you know and being like Hey you have a life you know Uh except of me you have a Edward Sturm: But yo, but that's, but that's what, that's what you wanna do.

You know, it was, uh, Jackie, Jackie Chu shared, um, he shared, I think this was yesterday or two days ago, and he shared how, how Forbes is still ranking, like, for best CBD oils and stuff. Leo - Astrak: Yeah Edward Sturm: And, and yeah, and, and, and Forbes, you know, was like a haven for parasite SEO and, and, and for, for CBD companies to do parasite SEO on. But there's a reason why Forbes can get away with too much SEO. There's a reason why people say, "Oh, it's Forbes."

It's because it's a strong brand, and it's, it, like, yeah, and so, yeah. The, it, it, there… You know why it's not too much SEO with Forbes? Because Forbes isn't just doing SEO. For, like, so one of my, one of my good friends… Yeah.

Well, yeah, they're doing everything. One of my best friends is, is head of events at Forbes, and, uh, he's been on the show twice before. Uh, like, we are childhood friends. We've made many viral videos together.

We've known each other for, yeah, super long time. Um, but, like, you know, Forbes is doing crazy events worldwide. Forbes isn't just, uh, it, it- Forbes is not just, like, putting up articles on their website. And, and so, Leo - Astrak: Reverb is not just a website Edward Sturm: Yeah, it's not just a website.

Yeah. Leo - Astrak: you know real media Edward Sturm: Yeah. But but yo, but I think, see, see, this is why, this is why I say, like, um, this is why I, I always see, like, geo and SEO being the same thing because for me, the best SEO has been, has always been multi-channel. For me, like, uh, when it w- like, what… Yeah, for me, the best SEO has always been multi-channel.

If you, if you're getting signals from everywhere, you're going to have stronger SEO. If you're getting branded searches from events that you're doing, you're going to have, you're gonna have higher click-through rates. You're going to have… You can buy more backlinks and still have it look natural. You can get away with so much more.

And so, yeah, that, that's, yeah Leo - Astrak: I think on that is that it was not so you know it was not such a priority before like 2020 or something like that It was like y you can have a life outside of all of that uh or you can just play a SEO game and it will still works you know Um I think it was more reliable for sure Edward Sturm: For sure, 100%. 100%, that's that's all, that's all true. That's, yeah, that's, that's all true, but, like, I, I also feel like if you're thinking about this from what, like, from a user's perspective, it's like these skyscraper technique articles with in- incredibly long introductions that are horrible to read, like, they, you… This can't be good for searchers.

Like Leo - Astrak: yeah Edward Sturm: You know why I, I, I… Leo - Astrak: ourself Edward Sturm: Yeah, I… Dude, I wa- I was thinking really deeply about the helpful content update today, and like, um, so what did the helpful content update prioritize? It priorit- prioritize user-generated content and deprioritize the niche blogs. And it, and th- the goal was really to prio- deprioritize the niche blogs that were doing too much SEO, where… Yeah. And so, and, and why… But then you have to ask, like, why did that happen?

It's because, it's because searchers didn't want these niche blogs doing too much SEO. They didn't want the overly promotional listical content. They didn't want the long introductions where they have to sift through only to get a thin answer. They didn't want a- they didn't want answers that they couldn't trust.

What did they get with Reddit? They got things that were short, fast, easy to consume, things that they can trust more. And then I also started asking, okay, like, that's all understandable. Why didn't G- why couldn't Google just communicate this to publishers?

"Hey, your content sucks. We see that with the data. You need to put out short, you need to put out short content. And right now, we're gonna prioritize Reddit because, like, w- everything that, from your site is garbage and is sending off really terrible user signals."

And we see that with pogo sticking, we see that with the click-through rates, and we see that with inc- an increased amount of people adding Reddit to their queries. And, and it's like, why couldn't, why couldn't Google communicate this to publishers? Because Google lied to publishers, and everybody knows that. Google's like, "Yeah, just keep on Leo - Astrak: yeah yeah yeah Edward Sturm: great content."

And the reason that Google couldn't tell publishers was because if Google started saying… Because Reddit didn't have as sophisticated moderation when the helpful content update came out. And if Google said to, if Google said to SEOs, "We are going to prioritize Reddit," the SEOs would jump off their niche blogs and, and, a- a- and pollute, and pollute Reddit before Reddit had any moderation, like sophisticated moderation in place to, to, to stop this. And so Google couldn't even communicate what, like what they had to do.

And it's, it, but it… And, and people hate Google for it. Uh, but like also, like if you just think about it from like a games, game theory perspective and why they had to do what they, what they had to do, like it's completely understandable. And, and like I'm no better because I just went on, I just shared on my podcast, which is probably the biggest SEO podcast, "Here's how you manipulate Reddit. You can use this website."

And like … And so Yeah, like you… But, but I also completely, I don't, I don't blame, I don't blame Google for it. And so that's why, why I also say, yeah, you can go down these routes and you can do all this manipulation, but I'm als- I'm also in favor of, like, if you play the long game, you will be so much better off Leo - Astrak: 100 100 agree And I think like what what you know my years in affiliate I was like Yeah branding sucks Branding doesn't matter Branding is shit and everything you know And because I was playing the performance game because I was playing like affiliate game and because my my focus was on the I need to perform right now and I need my conversion to happen right now And like since I started my own company I was like man I was so wrong you know I was so deeply wrong during all this time because branding in the end is the long game you know and is the best way to have the best compounds over time uh in SEO obviously in geo over uh you know and everywhere And just not just g um branding just like having a good product and trying to do the best work that you can do And overall it's something that you know generate the best results that you can have But you have to be here for the long game when you're doing that because it's something that will take years you know to to to land right and everything So it's really one thing that you know I've been taught in the last uh three four years Uh you know do do some good communication do some good branding have some good product and be decent with your customer and try to not manipulate so much And you get slapped by Google which will happen at some point it happened to everyone you know try to other channels There is like ton of other channel to do marketing and like Edward Sturm: But will it… I, here's the thing.

Will it, it happen if you are playing, will- if you're actually playing the long game, will it actually happen? Like, uh, I have, I have websites that, that I've d- that I did, like, where, where I did SEO, where I was playing, w-w- just like white hat SEO, give searchers what they want, target the right types of queries, and I made like, uh, so with my method of SEO, the, uh, I made these pages in 2019, 2020. I haven't touched them since. They're targeting bottom of funnel keywords, keywords where people are literally looking for the solution that our company provides.

They get to these pages. These pages are still ranking one for their target keywords without me having touched them since 2020 or 2019. And the, and I was looking with, with Google Analytics, just asking the AI, like with this subfolder, th- with, I, it, 'cause all the, all these SEO pages are in a subfol- are in a s- a certain subfolder. And so I say to the AI searcher, uh, people coming from organic search to this subfolder, how many of them are going to our app sub-domain?

And, and I saw that si- 68.3% of searchers who land on these pages are going to the app sub-domain. That's huge. And these pages have ranked number one since I created them for their target keywords in 2020 and 2019.

Made it through a helpful content update. These aren't, these aren't blog posts. They're literally like conversion-based landing pages. And it's, yeah Leo - Astrak: guess your site is not like an a niche website you know It's more like a a real service or a real brand or Edward Sturm: Yes.

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. But that, but, but that's, but that's my point. My point is I don't think, I don't think a, a Google penalization is inevitable for every website doing SEO Leo - Astrak: No yeah totally I agree I would not say penalization when I mean slap is like you know sometime you get you know minus 50 or something like that of an update That can happen you know Edward Sturm: We haven't even gotten that.

We haven't even gotten that. I don't… I, like, I, I don't think… I, I really don't think it's an… I, I mean, yeah, I, I don't know. Like, I still see lots of sites that, that have been crushing it for so… I mean, I guess, look, I guess if you're doing… I… Fine. You know what?

I guess if you're, if you've been doing SEO for, like, 20 years with one site, you will have eventually gone down some bad tactics that look flashy and not even realizing, and then you're gonna get hit. Okay, fine. If you're doing… Yeah, fine. If you… That's… You, you, you're right.

You do see that very often from websites that have been around for, like, 20 years. I mean, even, like, I think it was, um, JCPenney, which was, like, this super famous scandal from, I don't know, it was, like, 15 years ago or something, and, like, this agency was buying JCPenney all of these links, and it w- And then Google caught them and, and actually gave a manual action to JCPenney, and I think that it was, like, JCPenney disappeared from… The huge retail store in the United States.

I think they're out of business now. But they… But, like, they d- disappeared from, like, the f- f- It was either JCPenney or Macys, I don't remember, but they, like, disappeared from the front page of Google. Or, or sorry, they d- their brand name disappeared from, from Google. They, like… It was, like, something like that.

And it, like… And yeah, it's fine if… You… But they, they went down this, like, "Oh, we didn't…" They, they probably didn't even realize. Like, if you're doing SEO, Leo - Astrak: like the agency was doing that or Edward Sturm: if you're… They they didn't even know, but they might not, not even realized that it was bad. Like, if you're doing SEO in, like, 2005 and you're a new site, you, you might not even realize that buying backlinks is, like, against the rules and stuff. Leo - Astrak: and it's like you know like Penguin penalty came overnight Like they there were no Penguin penalty be before Penguin penalty So before to have like the penalty coming Edward Sturm: No, so but this, yo, but, but but Le- but Leo, this is, L- Leo, this is my question.

Like, we, we just spent the last, like, 20 minutes talking about white hat SEO, and if you're playing the long game with SEO and iGaming and CBD, can you, like, can it work? W- that, that's, that's the question. Now, don't… Like, if you're doing that, you're still gonna be hit with negative SEO. I, uh, yesterday's episode of the podcast is about, um, and, and Charles Floate has written a lot about this.

It's, it's about, uh, it's about DMCA takedowns and fake DMCA takedowns. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, so, like, if you're, if you're in that niche, you're still gonna get, like, it's gonna be nonstop.

It's gonna be so stressful. You're gett- like, there's gonna be all this bas- bad things going on. But I, I, I'm a believer that, that if you are doing SEO by the book, if you're building a brand out, like, outside of SEO, but also doing SEO, you're driving branded searches, um, and you're doing a multi-channel approach, th- you can still win with white hat/gray hat in iGaming and CBD. But, but I'm curious what you th- what, what you think about that Leo - Astrak: the the really hard part of this channel is that you cannot do ads on this you know media and this in these industries So that's why people are not playing by the ads playbook and they have to go into SEO and to go hard into SEO So one really hard thing is that when you need to do you know really wider type of stuff uh on the on the long run generally you do some ads or you do some content and you do some like you know social media and type of stuff like that So here because you will be kinda blocked from YouTube kinda blocked from Instagram kinda blocked from all social media because of your topic you cannot do ads for because of your topic and like even physical events will be kinda hard to do as well because of your topic Is there still room to know where you can go and and do stuff And I think especially in gambling on advertising for like sports team and everything there is some playbook that is being drawn you know and that you can play by and that will be interesting to go on the long game But I think that because blackhat are really good and there is so much money in this type of industry like you will have overall great results you will have overall compound on the long run and everything But it's hard to promise you the first page and the first place you know forever Because some crazy people are doing crazy tactics and and studying Google you know on all the aspects And so perhaps you will be first sometime perhaps you will be five fifth sometimes You can play the wrong game and you need a lot of money because if you want to you know um invest in the long run on this type of industry it would cost you a lot of money So I think the best the biggest problem is that people in these industries because are heavily regulated and and and change a lot and a lot of blackhat stuff they don't have the you know vision to have like profitability in 10 years on this type of industry because you're too scared that you will lose all your money So perhaps it's something that you can do I think right now it's it's quite hard to do and most of the people people are in the gray area But um I think you can still do it you know It's just like y you need you know to have a big steel balls to go into it and to put so much money not being sure to be profitable Edward Sturm: Yeah.

Yeah, that's a - Yeah. That's a, that's an interesting way to look at it is that black hats are like, "Oh my God, we, we might not have it." Or like, it's like if, if we're doing SEO on this niche, like we might not even be around in 10 years, is like you're saying. Leo - Astrak: the niche is not here in 10 years Perhaps you know everything is probably better in 10 years So it's like perhaps even everything probably in two years So it's it's are like getting scared about that you know At least I know in France CBD is like always regulation every six months new stuff coming and everything so people are super scared to you know um invest heavy money into SEO or into marketing overall Uh and for gambling yeah most of the stuff is like you know unregulated and and kinda shut in um half of the world so it's always a bit hard to have something super clean But if you take the big clean sports book they are doing a long game you know regulated and everything So you have a long game regulated and most of the big sports books are also also doing casino in the uh um places where it's legal So I think you can play by the legal game uh and and it will be more easy to do SEO on this type of stuff but you will still have to fight like crazy people that are doing a lot of black hat and that Edward Sturm: When, um, when you're doing SEO experiments to manipulate AI, have you th- ha- have you seen - Like, what have you seen about why, um, maybe you actually have, like, a page that's, um, that's first, but, uh, but, like, the brand that's on that page isn't actually being recommended, like, first?

So, like, why some brands are recommended, um, um, uh, are recommended over other brands. Is it just consensus? Um, i- yeah, like what, what, what have you seen there? Leo - Astrak: Yeah So I think there is a lot of consensus definitely So if you are like you know if you are first on every rankings it's really really rare that you will not be first uh overall on the ranking What can happen though is that sometime the AI will check into y your reviews or your ereputation you know to be sure that you're still reliable So for example what can happen is that you have five listicle putting you first then the AI will do a a second check on like you know client review name of the brand And if your Trustpilot for example is shitty it will say like Oh this brand is really mentioned but at the end I'm not sure it's a good one because Trustpilot is throwing like shitty reviews and everything So sometimes there is a second check going on um and check on the own page of the brand as well uh generally That will check like you know overall checking the product and everything being sure that it suits you as well because sometime it will be like Oh that's a really good brand Everybody's promoting promoting it But it's it doesn't suit like I don't know SEO agency specifically you know So because I know that you Leo you manage an SEO agency I will not push this brand to you So there's results a lot playing with the personalization uh and the on page of the brand And yeah sometimes there is some like you know super weird little bad signals that GPT or or AI will tell you like This one seems little bit off because I saw this signal so I'm not sure about that you know Uh and sometime as well in the sources so there will be sources and sometimes some sources are like considered more important than others So it's interesting as well A lot of my friends did like some asking directly to ChatGPT Why do you think this source is more important than this one Et cetera And you see a lot of reflection around like uh thinking about the uh the display of the page or it is put and everything So one example is one guy was having a listicle on his website He was like Well you don't take my listicle And it was like there is a a contact form at the bottom of the listicle so I think that you just need to contact the staff to be put in the listicle and that doesn't make the listicle reliable So it was interesting how it was like seeing r different level of r being reliable of the different websites Edward Sturm: But w- when you, you were saying like it, sometimes like the homepage will look suspicious.

So what, do you mean by that? Leo - Astrak: So um uh I I I don't think that people will try to make their homepage suspicious but sometimes you will have so let's say some use case for example that are put on the homepage that are like little bit weak you know and or that will not suit you the the the people asking or a thing So for example if you go on the homepage of an SEO agency and you see on the homepage that they are doing only stuff for roofers for example and you on the other side you are a B2B SaaS you know and you're already like on huge volume and the roofer are always like yeah a small increase in the GMB local presence It will be like everybody's promoting this one but I I don't think it's the good suits for you because their homepage is indicating that they are really working a lot with like local stuff and roofers and you are definitely not in this case So sometimes some uh marketing that you're doing on your homepage is giving signals that you know ChatGPT will uh demote due to the the person asking Edward Sturm: Do you have any thoughts on if, uh, I was actually talking about this with, with David Quay.

We were talking about this off the podcast. He's, he, fr- he's been on the show many times. Um, and we were talking about whether or not, uh, AI can actually follow links within sites, or is it just doing query fan-outs the whole, the whole time? So, like, if it comes across, if it's, if it, it, it lands, it, it, it gets onto a landing page or a blog post, is it actually gonna follow the links in that blog post to do de- deeper research, or is its deeper research just gonna be with query fan-outs?

I don't know if you've looked at, at that at all. My gut says it's only query fan-outs, but I, I'm, I'm not sure Leo - Astrak: I putain I'm not sure as well I I Edward Sturm: Maybe Leo - Astrak: be Edward Sturm: s- Leo - Astrak: Because because the thing that I saw a lot is that for example it do one query and the query find like three or four solution and then it redo three or four query with the find out of the four Edward Sturm: That's what I'm saying Leo - Astrak: to to check you know the reviews and everything Perhaps he didn't have the link in the first query so I'm not sure that you know he could have followed the link because perhaps the link was not there at all Um and the second stuff that I was thinking about was that every time that you ask you know uh data with one solution generally you get two URL every time So I'm thinking like perhaps he check one then he go to a link then he check another But perhaps it's just like you know because in the query find out you will get two or three Google rankings for every brand perhaps it just check you know take take one two Edward Sturm: You know what I think it is?

I think it's, I think it depends on, I think it depends on if you're doing like, uh, a deep thinking or, and, and every different, every different AI has its own, uh, o- own version of that, like agent mode, um, or deep research or like expert mode. They all have this different names. I think it depends on that versus like you're trying to get an instant answer because yeah, I think, I think that's what it, that's what it depends on. Like I, I, I would bet that if I'm doing, if I'm doing agent mode on ChatGPT, it's actually gonna follow links.

That's, I think it, I think it, I think it entirely depends Leo - Astrak: It will it will yeah you know uh I I I would agree on that especially because like every time that you're going on this mode it takes like forever you know It's the concept of this mode It will take forever Perhaps it's taking forever because it's really crawling website and just not pulling everything from Google you know which will make sense in my opinion And uh yeah Edward Sturm: Can you share, so can you share some, some audits that you've done where, where clients have been like, uh, l- basically like fixes that you made and then their AI visibility improved?

So it's not… And, and, and stuff beyond just like putting listicles on other sites and doing Reddit stuff, like where you actually had to like fix their site, like on, like on page, on site fixes that you made. Leo - Astrak: Uh Edward Sturm: Yeah. Or, or, or like, or maybe there was a way that like they had like bad reviews that were showing and then you… Yeah, like things like that. Yeah Leo - Astrak: Yeah yeah This one I had a um a dropshipper that came to me because he was uh you know getting hammered by the client's reviews Um I guess he was not doing a great job but yeah it was like I need something to fix my uh you know reputation and that So did that as we do every time you know So we go for guest posts and everything and we publish on a lot of different blogs being like oh my review my honest and reliable review on this shop you know whatever Uh and trying to take all the stuff that was in Trustpilot uh that was like pointed as bad experience You know for example delivery was a big pain point so I was like Okay I will insist on every blog post being like delivery was such a great experience et cetera And so the funny thing is that I did that on two different clients and it didn't work on one client and it worked on on the other one So the the crazy stuff is that sometimes with few sources let's say like you know five sources you can offset a bad Trustpilot You will still have a notice about the Trustpilot being not so great and everything but overall ChatGPT would describe a great experience or a reliable shop Uh on the other end uh even with like perhaps 10 different guest posts being in the top 15 of of uh Google on the number name of the shop plus review um uh GPT then was saying like Yeah ththis shop is definitely a bad shop Trustpilot is giving like bad reviews Even if there is like some good reviews some different uh individuals I really don't recommend you to go on this shop Edward Sturm: Wow Leo - Astrak: I learned that Trustpilot is stronger than like my 10 you know blog posts that I can put behind it So Edward Sturm: so basically what you were… Wait, wait.

So, so were you, were you writing, were you writing listicles, or were you actually writing, like, reviews of the brand? Okay. So you saw, so, so you saw that, uh, you saw that Trustpilot, like the reviews of Trustpilot were saying that this, what was it? The shipping times were, were too long and Leo - Astrak: just too Edward Sturm: shipping, ship, sh- shipping was long, shipping was bad.

And so then you wrote all these, these reviews of the brand as guest posts on other sites saying that the shipping was amazing and easy and fast, and for one of the clients it worked, and for the other client it didn't work. Leo - Astrak: Yeah exactly Edward Sturm: That's interesting. Leo - Astrak: Exactly Edward Sturm: Would you, would you still, would you s- so… Ah, that's very interesting. W- so it's like what, what's the solution there?

Customer, customer support and, and fix the shipping, like Leo - Astrak: And uh what we end up doing on the other one was like you know being sure that the Trustpilot uh uh grade ratings tend to go up you know And it's like man Edward Sturm: Well Well, yeah, well, what what do you do, what do you do beyond customer support and, like, focusing on the product if you actually do have, like, a bunch of bad reviews out there? Like, it, it… Leo - Astrak: good reviews on Edward Sturm: Uh, okay.

You're saying on these places Leo - Astrak: Yeah yeah yeah But there there is places where you can buy you know good reviews on Trustpilot and then uh it will improve your brands you Edward Sturm: Where where Leo - Astrak: because Edward Sturm: where do where do, where do, where do black hats do that? Leo - Astrak: Yes Yeah Well this one is uh I I don't even know where I find the providers but it's just like you know trying 100 different providers from Google in anonymous mode crypto and everything and you end up having someone that is able to deliver But uh yeah I tried a lot of different being scammed by a lot of different Edward Sturm: And then, but the, yo, that's, that's the other thing.

So when, when I was, like, testing, when I was… When you're testing Reddit, you're not testing on your own brand either. And, and, like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you can't, you can't test with your own brand name. You can't test with your own brand.

Um, Leo - Astrak: with your competitor's brand you know Edward Sturm: yeah, but then, but then you figure out when this works, and now, now you gave them all these great reviews. Oops. Leo - Astrak: You do on all of the companies you know Each one one reviews like that everybody get a little sh share of the of the pie Edward Sturm: Have you done that? Leo - Astrak: Um no no no Generally I just try di directly on the on the Trustpilot of my clients with this agreement you know Edward Sturm: But you're, but you're, but you're in Thailand.

You, you, you have connections to all those, all those black hats anyway Leo - Astrak: Yeah that's okay If I Generally when I need one specific services you know a few WhatsApp message and Edward Sturm: know a guy, you know a guy. I know a guy. I know a guy Leo - Astrak: That's always I know a guy you know Edward Sturm: Well, yeah, okay. W- um, but, but basically it's like, okay, like everyone's saying that this is bad, either fix it or don't.

But honestly trying, like customer support is really, I think cus- I, I made a podcast just about how important customer support is. Like the reality is if, if… And, and, and it, the, and the reason I, I was, I made this podcast is look at what every company is doing. They think they're so smart automating customer support with AI, Leo - Astrak: Yeah yeah Edward Sturm: and they're f- I, I almost cursed, and I never curse on this podcast. They are effing idiots doing that.

You are an idiot if you are automating… And you know, I'm sure that there are listeners who are automating support with AI. Stop it right now. Get some humans. Get so many humans that support is instant.

Have people be so overly nice and, and helpful. And it will just… 'Cause if you… Look, if you want to, if you don't want to have to do black hat stuff to fix a bad reputation, which can really backfire in your face, you, like you can get, you, you, it, it's 'cause it's a… This isn't just against Google's rules. It's literally illegal. Going and, and doing like review ma- manipulation with fake reviews and stuff is literally illegal.

If you don't want to have to do that and look over your shoulder, uh, it, j- just over optimize with customer support. If you have good customer support, you will cut down on bad reviews so dramatically. Don't try to automate it. Have real people who are really nice.

It will make such a huge, huge, huge difference. Like people… 'Cause what happens is you have an agent, right? You're really dissatisfied, but you have an agent who's so nice to you, you get, you, you're, you're connected to them immediately. They're so nice to, to you, and, and you don't wanna go out of your way and say something bad about this company, and maybe it could be, it could come back to the agent, the agent's gonna get in trouble, or you, you you just feel, you just feel better.

You feel like the company cares about you, and they're gonna work on fixing this, and, and this person cares about you. It's, it's, God, it, and then you don't have to go and do this terrible s- this, this stuff which really is dangerous. Like Leo - Astrak: yeah No I think like if you can especially because like written customer support you know it's something that y you know I mean if you're super already super big and everything and and you have already like super great experience and it's not like you know so bad to have like written customer support which can be partly automated for me it's not such a big deal But as soon as you have calls and everything just having somebody like Can I call you to fix that You know and having somebody some human on the call that is like have some empathy towards you and everything this change everything You know Just having like one small call with a human that can try to help you and being like Yeah you know um I'm just trying to help you Can I solve your problem This change everything definitely Edward Sturm: Yeah, I don't… Honestly, I, like, even if you have a great experience, actually, I think you, I think you should still give that incredible support.

And the reason is because then you don't actually have to go and worry about parasite SEO. Leo - Astrak: enough Edward Sturm: It, like, literally people will be, like, your customers will be your parasite SEO, SEO people. 'Cause, 'cause, 'cause that's the thing, having a having a, good product is, like, great, and that will definitely help, and people will recommend you if you have a good product. But if you have a good product and you have good customer support, people will go out of their way, s- like, way out of their way to, to recommend you.

And, and then you're just, you're gonna overwhelm Reddit with, like, the great reviews and stuff. And so it, it's like, it's just, it, it, not just Reddit, Trustpilot, like every- everywhere, everywhere. And it's, it makes such a, it makes such a huge difference. Leo - Astrak: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's really good with that Edward Sturm: W- are there any turn and burn tactics that you still do? Leo - Astrak: Uh, no, to, to be honest, I stopped because like, uh, I don't know, it was one month ago, something like that, the, method that everybody was using on, on gambling just be shut down, you know? Edward Sturm: Oh yeah, talk about that. Talk about that Leo - Astrak: Yeah, yeah.

So, uh, typically, I think, like for the last two years or something like that, the - one, one - everybody in gambling was doing the same tactic. So it was like, um, expired domain. Generally, you take a domain that has like strong brand authority overall, that have like a linked, uh, Facebook page or a linked Instagram page that have a GMB. GMB is really, really, really important right now.

If you want to spam, you need a GMB website. So that is the GMB. And uh, then you do like homepage fully optimized, and generally it was like you put a subdomain that, and then the subdomain you put canonical from the homepage from the, to the subdomain. So that was like comp- the complete recipe.

You get this domain, you spam like that, and everybody was playing like that since two years, something like that. Um, and recently, like one month, one month and a half ago, this, this technique was patched by Google. So I don't know exactly if it was more the canonical part or more the expired domain part or more the like subdomain part. So it was one of the three ones I would, uh, I Edward Sturm: Or a combination Leo - Astrak: or a combination definitely.

Like perhaps like canonical on subdomain, you know, that was, that was patched. Um, so after that, yeah, I, I was not even doing that so much, but, uh, yeah, I Edward Sturm: So wait, so all the, all the, SEO w- all, you're saying all the SEO was happening on the subdomain and the wh- and the, uh, parent domain canonical to the subdomain? Leo - Astrak: Yeah, Edward Sturm: Uhhuh Leo - Astrak: was not like a, a website. It was just a one-pager, you know?

Every Edward Sturm: Mm Leo - Astrak: 10K Edward Sturm: sub- the subdomain was a one-pager or the, Leo - Astrak: The Edward Sturm: home- the parent domain was a one-pager? Leo - Astrak: So the parent domain, the homepage was always a Edward Sturm: Uhhuh Leo - Astrak: the subdomain was a one-pager as well. In fact, no, the subdomain was always a one-pager. Uh, and sometime you get like fewer pages on the, on the main domain, but no big stuff, you know.

Overall, it was really a one-pager. And generally as well, you do some GSA work the homepage, uh, to get like a big blast on your, on your main keyword. So that was the, the playbook that everybody was doing since two years. And, uh, yeah, it stopped working, so I'm like, "Ah," sadly stopped doing that, and, uh, not really interesting.

And oh yeah, the canonical was not the main stuff because I saw some people doing that with AMP as well. There was like the old, you know, Google framework that was used back in the days and, um, play with that with the AMP. So I think canonical was not the main important thing. I think subdomain was mostly important.

It was AMP and subdomain Edward Sturm: And that, and, and, and so basically you don't do any turn and burn t- That was the one that you were doing that got hit. You're, you're just not doing any turn and b- burn tactics now? Leo - Astrak: was working, you know? I, I don't think right now there is so much churn and burn taxis that are really working except this one.

This one was really crazy, and it was really like short-term, so it was really noticeable that it was churn and burn. Um, I think all the other stuff, not really working. Sometime - No, no, yeah, yeah. Except, except parasite that tend to burn as well at some points, you know.

Because when you push a lot of listicles and parasites, they kind of go up and after they, you know, go down through Google a little bit by little bit. But, uh, except that, I mean, yeah. No, I, I mean, you know, if you wait for the long run, better to do white hat stuff that compounds in the long run Edward Sturm: What, what, um, what are your go-to strategies for getting backlinks for a money site, for a site that you're, that you're playing the long game with? Leo - Astrak: Yeah.

Generally, I will - So first of all, I will say in term of, uh, by what should I start? I think first thing that I will start is the, the page that I'm targeting. Generally, I do something like if I'm on, um, on a big, big, big website, I will do only internal pages. If I'm on a small website, uh, I will do half, uh, homepage and half internal pages.

Um, because always, like, if you're on a really big, strong brand, you don't need to, you know, push more the homepage. Um, then the second step that I will do is Edward Sturm: Right Yeah so so, the first, y- sorry, the first is you will do, you, you'll just do internal, in- internal links Leo - Astrak: No internal pages. So like, uh, instead of, um, uh, Edward Sturm: Oh, and Leo - Astrak: I will go for the, you know, pages, uh, which are not the homepage Edward Sturm: So what, how often are you trying to build links from the homepage to, to a, a, to a client site?

Leo - Astrak: Uh, when they are - when this is like a small website, let's say, Edward Sturm: Ah. Leo - Astrak: like typically a starting website, I will do only on page for several months, you know? If I'm on like something that already have some leaf, like some, some background and everything, but not like a really strong brand with not a lot of advertising done through time, uh, then I will go for like half on page, half internal. If that's like a super old brand with like a lot of backlinks already on the home page, I will go for internal pages.

Um, then what I do in term of, um, generally, anchors is the most dangerous. It's the last dangerous stuff in term of linking optimization. Like everything else, it's demoted, you know? Anchors is the only thing that is not demoted.

So anchor, I'm trying to, you know, don't be so pushy. Uh, and uh, generally I would go below like five percent, you know, optimiz- optimized anchors. Um, I tend to play a lot with like semi-optimized anchors, so like brand plus keywords or like brand plus random words plus keywords. Uh, just having like few keywords or like, you know, um, uh, secondary keywords, uh, mixed together, et cetera.

Uh, I like to play with that, but, uh, generally this type of, of, uh, anchors I will not go for more like, uh, 15, 20% teaser. And then generally you go with a lot of brand, especially nowadays with geo, you can place a lot of brands. It makes sense, you know, uh, to have your brand a bit over the w- the web. Edward Sturm: You're saying un- unlinked brand, un- unlinked brand or, or brand, branded anchors?

Leo - Astrak: Uh, Branded anchors Edward Sturm: Uhhuh Uh-huh. Leo - Astrak: Because it looks natural, I mean, Edward Sturm: Yeah, for sure. For sure. It does, yeah Leo - Astrak: Um, and then in terms of, um, of what to choose, so generally, I mix a lot of different stuff.

Or if I'm, if I'm on a white hat clean website, generally what I like - the, the weird stuff is that I do a lot of backlink from French, and France is a different type of market in term of backlink. So we used to buy a lot of backlinks, and there is like a, let's say, a huge, um, inventory of, of stuff that you can buy in France, uh, compared to other markets, you know, and that is super cheap as well. So generally, I will go from backlinks that are between like, yeah, 50 and 300 euros.

That's the sweet spot, I will say, to have like decent website with good traffic. So something like above 20, 30K of traffic, um, clean website, proper keywords, not spam, you know, not, not shitted on, et cetera. Uh, and, uh, yeah, after if I can do some, customization, let's say, in my order, uh, generally what I like to do as well is to ask some internal links directly to the guest post to the guy, so like that the guest post is not like orphan page in the middle of a blog and more like something living and, and being in the ecosystem.

Um, and, uh, and yeah, that would - I mean, that's, that's the main lines, you know? Edward Sturm: Are you only doing SEO for clients or do you have like any brands yourself that you're working on? Leo - Astrak: stopped, I stopped having brand myself, uh, Edward Sturm: How come? Leo - Astrak: yeah, because if you - the thing is that if you, if you, if you want to focus 100% on the client works to be sure that, you know, the brand will not take your time and take your mind, uh, I think it's better to like remove all the, you know, projects that can, yeah, you know, aspire you and, and, and take you in the vortex of like, "This is my site.

I want to spend all my Edward Sturm: Yeah. But that, but you could make way more money like that Leo - Astrak: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's everybody, um, you know, everybody's saying that, which is kinda true. And, um, and I prefer, I prefer to focus on my clients and being like, "I will build the agency," and, you know, dedicated 100% of the time and the energy on the, on the agency.

However, I still have the backlink marketplace, which is like kind of side project, which is the same size of the agency, so, uh, it's good as well. I have some, you know, uh, SaaS type of, of money that could come at some point. So that's the second project playing in the long run as well in the some different area, let's say Edward Sturm: Leo, this was fun. Thank you for coming on the show.

Where should everybody, where should everybody look you up, find you, message you? Leo - Astrak: Yeah, I think the two easiest place are LinkedIn and Twitter. Uh, so you can find me easily with my, my name and my, my surname, so Léo Poitevin Edward Sturm: Yeah, it was a very fun episode. All of your links will be in the description for this show.

This is episode 1,094 of The Edward Show. Let's go. 1,094 days in a row doing this podcast. If you watch this on YouTube, thank you so much for watching.

Thank you again to my guest, Leo, for coming on the show. If you listened on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, thank you so much for listening, and I will talk to you again tomorrow. Bye now.