Unlocking a Catalyst Mindset with Becca Silver

Speaker A: Welcome back to the Ed Essentials Podcast, the show where education meets leadership. My name is Hunter Flesch. I'm a school administrator and your host for this show. If this is your first time tuning in, this podcast is for aspiring and current school leaders who want to grow their leadership skills and feel more prepared for roles like assistant principal, principal, and beyond. If you've got questions or topics you'd like to hear on the show, send me an email. I, uh, and don't forget to follow me. Ah, Essentials on social media for more leadership content and conversation. Today's episode is just a little different and I'm really excited to share it with you. I'm joined by Becca Silver, the founder of the Whole Educator and the brilliant mind behind the Catalyst mindset approach. She's an expert in coaching, leadership development and supporting school systems and shifting adult behavior for long term impact. So instead of just talking about coaching, I really wanted to experience it and I wanted you to hear what powerful, reflective coaching actually sounds like. So in this episode, towards the very end, you'll get to hear that coaching conversation between Becca and myself, and we dive into real leadership challenges. Uh, we talk about systems thinking, and most importantly, the mindset shifts that drive meaningful change. If you're a school leader curious about how coaching can unlock growth not just for yourself, but for your team, this episode is for you. Thank you so much for listening. Now let's get started.

Speaker B: Welcome everyone, to another episode of the EdEssentials podcast. I am honored today because we have the one and only Becca Silver on the show. And she was so kind to have me on her podcast and so why not return the favor? Um, and this is special because, Becca, I'm gonna ask you some questions. Of course we're gonna dig into all things Catalyst mindset. You're gonna talk about the whole educator platform, but you're going to walk me

Speaker A: through some live coaching.

Speaker B: Uh, that will be a first for the program.

Speaker C: I'm going to coach you live.

Speaker B: I'm so excited. Yes. And I was just telling you we, I know we're recording on Thursday, June 5th. Um, obviously this episode will release a little bit later than that, but yesterday was the last day of school for me. Today we just spent the entire morning sharing, um, building wide data sharing. So all of this stuff, uh, you know, I'm already starting to think about next year. And so this is really front of mind for me. I'm super excited to go through this with you, but, um, I want to dive right in, talk to, uh, listeners, um, just A little bit. Just touch briefly on what is the whole educator. Where did that idea come from?

Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. Well, I love coaching, so I love all things coaching. It's my jam.

Speaker A: And.

Speaker C: And so as I've loved coaching in education, I was a teacher for 10 years, became a coach, and then created the whole educator. And I created the whole educator, right? The name we. What I love in education, people are like, oh, that makes total sense. We talk about the whole child. And what I got, uh, fascinated with when I first started coaching was I was wildly ineffective. I'd, um, go into classrooms, I'd tell them what I think they should do. They were receptive. They were actually like, oh, this is a good idea. And then they did not implement or it didn't stick. They would try it and it would fail or they didn't. So, uh, it was, like, surprising me. Like, what's happening? Why am I not actually impacting people? And I got that it was actually a mindset issue. There's a few things. One, it was just like, there was some belief stuff that that wasn't, you know, that I needed to address. But bigger than that, it was the bigger issue of I was treating them the way I want to be treated and not the way they wanted to be treated. And so I developed this whole curriculum. A human centered approach to coaching versus a task centered approach. Right? So it's like we get things done through people's humanity and not around it. And the way that I developed this is I was becoming a life coach at the same time as an instruction, as I was an instructional coach. So I started getting equipped with these, like, human skills. Skills, right? Like understanding the human in front of me. And education is a fundamentally a human experience, right. Like, it's so funny. We get so tasky because we are busy people and we have a lot of things to do. But at the end of the day, we are human beings having a human experience together in education. And so I found I was not only more effective, but I was more efficient when I learned how to interact with, interact and impact the human in front of me through their humanity by understanding them better.

Speaker B: That unpacks so many things for me. I love the fact that you're emphasizing the humanistic aspect of it because there are so many resources out there that, you know, as leaders, we read and it's all positive intent, right? We read and we learn and we want to try and implement and just go do it. Um, but we forget that they're humans, right? We forget that it's not just a black and white process. We implement, um, and treat everybody the same. We have to understand the person in front of us. So I want to ask you, how do you even start that process? How does a leader, a principal, assistant principal, instructional coach, listening to this, where do they start in that process of better understanding the human sitting in front of them?

Speaker C: The best place to start is yourself to be self. Aware. Right. And then the question is like, how do I even, where do I even go from there? Right. And it's, you know, I start with how interact with people that are different than you. Because the easiest people, the easiest people for us to impact are the people that are most like us.

Speaker B: Yeah, Makes sense.

Speaker A: Makes sense.

Speaker C: And the reason why, you know, one of the things I specialize in resistance to change and going beyond buy in the reason why I do is was because I was a teacher that experienced resistance. I was a pain in the butt sometimes to my principals. I was.

Speaker B: They're listening now, nodding their head. Yep, I know you were.

Speaker C: Yeah. So I love talking about resistance and interacting with people experiencing resistance, because I did. Right. But a lot of coaches and leaders didn't experience a lot of resistance to change. Right. We're fantastic teachers in the classroom. And so what we want to do is first of all understand where we're coming from and then understand, hey, there's someone that is different in front of me. Right. Uh, we can kind of be like, ooh, they're different. Right. There's some different operating system. And I would say if there's one thing that people could do to start growing, uh, connection with someone that's different, understanding them is grow the skill of listening. Because people talk. You go and ask them a question and they will talk. But it's not just any listening m. So many of my coaches that have taken my academy, they're like, I thought I was a good listener before, but we have to learn how to listen to the words people are saying and not what we typically listen to, which is, ah, our thoughts. Our thoughts about what they're saying. That's what we typically listen to. That's what we're hearing.

Speaker B: Yeah, I've definitely experienced this as a leader. And something that I've become self aware of is I listen to people and I try to understand where they're coming from. But there's something that, in that conversation or response that catches my attention and I automatically have a response in my head and then I just hold onto that response. And then now I'm not listening to understand anymore. I'm waiting to respond, and then I'm forgetting all the important things that they're starting to say. And then I lose the impact when I respond because now I'm bringing up something from way before in the conversation that it just comes off, uh, not as genuine, Right? And so I think that's huge. And to add onto that, I feel like, in addition to the listening, I mean, how powerful do you find, or is this part of your program is the power of questions and the type of questions you ask first?

Speaker C: Yes, yes. Yeah, no, they are, right? And there's lots of different ways of questioning. And. And I want to say this very clearly. The way we know what questions to ask is by listening to what they say. They are 100% connected. One does not exist without the other, Right? That's how I know what questions to ask. Am I asking seeking questions? You know, am I. Am I following up with wanting to know more? Am I not doing that? Right? Am I asking more directive questions? Right? So I can ask all these different kinds of questions, but there's no protocol in any book that's going to tell me all the questions to ask and in what order. I may know my first question. How was your day? Right? Or how do you feel that lesson went? I may know my first question, but after that, there's no protocol out there that can tell me exactly the next question. I have to listen to them to know, but actually hear their words. So I actually want to share this. You know, you're talking about when we're listening to respond and holding in our head. We are wired to connect with each other. We're wired for connection. Humans are right from babies, right? We're looking at our mom's face or smiling when they smile, right? We do all these things that grow attachment. And we know that. We know it's important for children to have a secure attachment to adults, right? We have a subconscious ability to sense other humans. And we never acknowledge this, right? We're very, like, intellectual about it. Like, if I don't listen, I'll miss something. Someone says, it goes way beyond that. Subconsciously. Our brain is scanning our environment five times a second. Five times a second, asking itself, am I safe here or is it dangerous? Five times a second, right? And one way our brain can be like, it is not safe with this person is if they don't feel hurt. And in the opposite way, if someone does feel safe with someone and someone grows the skills of really getting, um, attuned to the person in front of them, something happens called neural Entrainment, Neural entrainment. This is wild. They just research and they, they, they studied people that were really great at communicating and they hooked them up to like FMR machines and EEG caps and all the things that they do to scan brains. And they were like, what is happening when these excellent communicators are talking? And they noticed they were able to influence the people they were talking to. The people opened up more. Right. They had all these like, factors of what made an excellent communicator. What happened was when they were communicating with that person only took one is their brain waves literally aligned. Their brainwaves mirrored each other. Wow.

Speaker B: I. And I've never heard of that before. That's amazing to me. A, uh, new learning moment. Uh, as I'm thinking about that, it kind of reminds me of, you know, the comfortability when you're in a conversation. The mirroring of people's body language. You know, if I'm comfortable and I feel safe in a conversation, you know, that person crosses their arms. I might cross my arms. Is that similar to what you're speaking to those?

Speaker C: Those are mirror neurons. It's, um, it's different. It's a different concept. Uh, I imagine neurologically it would be related. Uh, but no, our mirror neurons, it's the same ones that when you yawn. I yawn.

Speaker B: Yes. Okay.

Speaker C: Arms crossed. Yeah. And what I love that you said, though, in a very conscious way, something that I do. If I'm talking to someone and their arms are crossed, I do two things. I check my body and I'm like, I make sure I am as open as possible physically. I am intentional about being very open. I will make sure my body is fully turned towards them. So there is a. And it's all subconscious. Right. They're not. I'm not like I'm m. Opening. You know, I don't tell them.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And the second thing I do is I note they don't feel safe because of something. And m. I start to get curious about that.

Speaker B: Mhm. So given that. And so all this background leading up to the main tool that you've created now, uh, the Catalyst mindsets. I would love for you to. And again, you're deep in the research. Um, I know you geek out on all of this stuff. So give the audience an overview of what is the Catalyst mindset. Um, and I know there's five of them that you've sent to me. Um, yeah, you can talk through those. But obviously the research as well. What research do you feel like stands out for these five Mindsets that, uh, listeners need to know about.

Speaker C: So let me take a step back and just zoom out for a second before I talk about the five mindsets.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: I want to talk about resistance to change. Resistance to change is caused. Everyone listening to this has experienced change in your schools, right? And when change happens, we have to expect resistance, right? And so I know everyone listening has expect, uh, has experienced someone resisting the change at their school. And what causes resistance to change is unmet needs. That's it. Resistance happens in schools. One of the biggest reasons why is because we hire critical thinkers, we interview people, they come on, we're like, oh, like, oh, you, you sound like you'd be a great teacher. You could write lesson plans. You can differentiate. We love that. And then our default compliance culture of schools. Someone in the district, typically some leader buys something or makes a decision as, uh, a district. We're going to be a STEM district. Every school is going to teach them, right? So they make a decision and then they say, okay, schools, get on board. Everyone's going to do this. And then our beautiful critical thinkers are being told to implement a change they did not choose. And some folks are like, okay, I'll do it. Tell me what to do. What's the expectation? Okay. And some folks don't do that. Some folks are like, wait a minute, I didn't choose this. And for lots of different reasons, resist the change, don't want to implement the change. And so I dug into the research, like, why does this happen? And I discovered, I was like, okay, their actions, right? They're unwilling to implement the change. Why? I discovered there's five mindsets that we can actually diagnose why resistance has happened. Happening. Looking at those five mindsets now, there is the most famous mindset of all, Growth mindset. This is what happened with growth mindset. Carol Dweck, love, ah, her and love growth mindset. Said popularized, right? Wrote the book, it got popular when I was a teacher. I was like, yes, I love this growth mindset thing. Those same researchers went back to research and they're m. Like, there's more. There's more research. There's more mindsets we've discovered that are important for getting unstuck and learning, and no one's heard of them. And then I dug, uh, into more of the research and I was like, there's more than the ones they're saying. So the five mindsets that are catalyst mindsets, growth mindset is one of them. And what mindsets are is a belief. That's all a mindset is. It's a belief. It's not working hard. It's not being resilient. It's not having grit. It's not being positive. For anyone not watching this, I rolled my eyes. It's not being positive. Okay. Um, it's a belief. So growth mindset. I believe I can improve success mindset, which is self efficacy. I believe I can be successful. In schools, we love talking about collective efficacy because John Hattie did this thing and was like, the effect size of collective efficacy is multiple times bigger than all this other stuff. We thought was like, way more important. Right. We discovered, oh, wait, if our teachers collectively believe that the children can be successful. Interesting. That can out impact all these other elements. Right. The third one is value mindset. I believe this has value for me. Belonging mindset. I, uh, believe I belong here. And ownership mindset. I believe that by taking responsibility, I can change things. The interesting thing about ownership mindset, the fun fact about ownership mindset is there are five elements to ownership mindset. For someone to experience experiencing, having ownership over something, they need five things. One is agency, a sense of agency. And then the other four things are the other four mindsets.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: I like to call it the rainbow of the mindsets.

Speaker B: I love it. So. Oh, my gosh. So if you're a coach and you're trying to understand these mindsets. Okay.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, you know, you're, you're having this, you're preparing for this conversation with a staff member, you know, their resistance, um, to change, you know, what the, the antecedent for it is, how can they start to utilize or, uh, implement, uh, these mindsets to their advantage to try and implement this change or, or shift, you know, that person or individual in the right direction?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, No, I think that's a great question. I think one thing is to really start looking at what's the root cause of undesirable behaviors? Right. Step one is what are the undesirable behaviors? Right. And then, and sometimes people get really caught up. We're humans. We get caught up in, in something and it's like, is that the actual problem?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: What is the problem we're actually trying to solve here? So I think that's step one. Step two is drilling down and asking ourselves, okay, what's the gap here? Is it a knowledge gap that the teacher simply doesn't know what the content is? They're supposed to teach the American Revolution and they don't know what the American Revolution is? When I don't. When I taught fifth grade, I was not smarter than a fifth grader sometimes. And I had to learn it before I taught it. Not a problem. Right. Or is it a skill issue, they don't know how to do something. Or is it a mindset issue? In schools, we typically are decent at, uh, filling in knowledge and skill gaps, right? Like, oh, you don't know, know how to manage a classroom. I will help you, I will model for you. Right? We typically, we're decent at that. Mindset gaps were like, I don't know. Right. So then what do we do about that to help us, uh, start to diagnose which mindsets are being impacted. One thing I want everyone to know is success mindset self efficacy underlies all of them. It's a third line. And all of the mindsets are wildly intertwined. The research I tried at first to be like, they're very separate. They're not. They're all interconnected. And success mindset wildly shows up in every single one of them. So I just want everyone to know if they are need support in any mindset. Success mindset will need to be a part of that. One way to help to start diagnosing what mindsets might need support, be supported is to listen to them. Back to that. Listening and asking questions. You will hear it either in the words that they say or what I call between the words. Right? So someone might say, so give me, give me an example of something one of your teachers might say if they're resisting to change. Resisting the change.

Speaker B: A, uh, good example might be, um, I'm resistance or I'm resistant to implementing this intervention. That is going to require a lot of work of me. I don't have the time to do that.

Speaker C: I don't have the time to do it. Really Great. Um, by the way, do they actually name that they're being resistant to your teachers?

Speaker B: Oh, this is just an example. Not my. Okay. I don't run into that often, but that's an example.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, an example. Okay. So, uh, Right. So it's, it's. I don't have one. I don't have the time to do it. Right. So for me, I start to what something I'm hearing, right? I don't know this person person. But I would hear it might be a value issue. Right? Because at the end of the day, so understanding the nuances of all these mindsets is super important. We have part of value is task value. So task value, there's four elements and one of them is the cost. Something that gives us value in tasks is we have to I, we, we look through and we start to assess what's the cost of doing this. And if the cost is greater than the payoff, I don't want to do it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So value is a big one.

Speaker B: Yeah. The. I feel like there's so many things that we look at now with that mindset, or maybe I shouldn't call it mindset, but the, that component of cost teachers will, you know, we look at how much time is this going to spend? Is it really worth it to me? Um, does this even apply to me? You know, I'm thinking of your specials teachers out there, uh, you know, as they go through professional development. I'm sitting through an hour long professional development with the district literacy strategies and I teach music. Right.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, or like there are all kinds of those scenarios. So I mean, how do leaders start to better modify their system with these mindsets in mind?

Speaker C: Yeah. Right. So, uh, you know, here's the thing. I actually think, I think leaders are more equipped than they realize. They're like, what do I do now? So tell you this. I'll tell, I'll tell you a fact about value mindset and I'm ask you a question.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Because this is our coaching. Our coaching, uh, episode value mindset. To have value mindset, you need two things. You need to have your internal goals aligned with the external goals. That's it. That's what creates value for anything. My internal goals, what's important to me is aligned with the external goals. That's it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And so for principals and the system principals, I mean, we mentioned humans at the beginning of this conversation. How often do people in positions of power sit down with their staff and say, what are your goals?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. How powerful could that be? A principal coming by and you know, out of the blue, hey, what do you want to do like in the next few years? What are your goals? I want to be a part of supporting that. That is so powerful.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Why do you have to work every day?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: What are we all, what are we here for?

Speaker C: What's important to you?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker C: All value mindset questions. So I just, I want to name. All I did was told you internal and external goal alignment and then you immediately thought of action steps. Mhm. So that's what I'm saying. When we know just a little bit about any of these mindsets, it's like, oh, I could do this. Oh I could do this. Oh I could do this.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Now I've created frameworks for all of them. But what I love about this. This larger framework is. Once you've diagnosed and you start to assess, like, why are they resisting? You can start taking measured steps to address the actual root issue and not the symptom.

Speaker B: M. Here's a. Here's kind of a. Maybe a tricky question. I don't know. What if the change. Resistance to change. So you've got this teacher. They're resistant, but it's because of their perception of you as the leader.

Speaker C: Oh.

Speaker B: You know what I mean?

Speaker C: Trust.

Speaker B: Yeah. Tell me more about that.

Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. This is fantastic. I love this so much. Okay. Because this. We can do something about that. So, um, and I just want to triple check. This is. This is like, they. They don't trust me because of what. Something happened.

Speaker B: Yeah. And again, this isn't necessarily. I don't feel like this is something that happens, personally. I just think that is something. Uh, there are leaders out there that lead with positive intent, or they have a new style, or it's a new person coming in as a new leader. And they've got to establish this trust.

Speaker C: Yes, for sure. There are ways. So trust is part of the belonging mindset. And there are three conditions for the belonging mindset. Uh, for someone to experience belong. There's four elements of experiencing the experience of belonging. But the four conditions. Sorry, the three conditions are trust, connection, and safety. And how you intentionally develop trust. Trust is the confidence we have in someone's character and competence. And that's from the speed of trust. I did not make that up. Um, I like to give definitions because there's no one definition of trust. There's no one definition of leadership. You know what I mean? So, like, let's name the thing we're talking about. So if I know that, and I use this all the time within my own work. I meet someone new. I'm a consultant. I fly to all these places, and I meet new people all the time. And they have different, uh, set points. Trust set points. So some people trust me immediately. Some people are medium trust. Some people are like, I don't trust you. Right. And I know I have to immediately start earning their trust. And so I'm constantly thinking, how do I help them have confidence in my character and competence? And character is further broken down into integrity and intent. Integrity. As I walk my talk, I do what I say I'm gonna do. Integrity is not being a good person. We take morality out of this. No good or bad. Okay. And intent. I not only have good intentions, but I'm transparent about them, and they're mutually beneficial.

Speaker B: Yeah. Go Ahead.

Speaker C: Sorry, there's. And then. Well, then, then, then, then, um, uh, character, competence. So competence is then broken down into relevant capabilities and results.

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, I think that's so important. And I just think about how do you communicate? I mean, that is so. That's so impactful for how a, uh, leader is thinking. Right. Think of all the opportunities that leaders have in front of staff or that they have in front of just the individual. And that totally affects how you plan your communication. Um, you can, you can communicate black and white. This is the initiative here. We're going to implement it now. Go. Kind of like we said before, but like you said, that just leads to more resistance, more change. And there's no, no way that you're building any sense of genuine trust or relationship. You might have positive intent, but you're not. How are you communicating that? Or, or what's. How does that message come off to people? Because all of that is being absorbed by staff. And now they have their perception of either you or whatever you're asking them to do. So that's such a huge, huge takeaway for me right now.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. And I think one of the quickest, all time, quickest ways of developing trust, building trust within a relationship. One of the quickest ways, I actually assert it is the quickest way, this is Becca's opinion, not based on research, is listening. Listening. Well, listening. Reflective listening. What I heard you say was, uh. I recently learned a new term for it, for reflective listening, which is looping. For understanding. And I love it.

Speaker B: I love that.

Speaker C: Uh, for understanding. So what? It's the same thing as reflective listening, but I think it says the thing that it is. So you say something and I say what I heard you say was. Or it sounds like it seems like you're feeling frustrated because it happened. And then you go, yeah, and we know we're on the right track. We know we listened well. When they say yeah, and ah, they keep going. You're like, oh, I got it, I got, I got it. Um, on the money. M. And what it does is it signals to their brain that they're safe immediately.

Speaker B: Yes. And I found that I actually use some of that vocabulary with upset parents. They come in hot, something crazy at school happened, and they just want punishment. And a lot of times I hear them out, they get it out, and then use the phrase, I'm seeing that and I notice, or obviously I can see that you're frustrated. I don't want that to be the case either. Right. Or what I'm hearing you Say is that you're really frustrated about the situation. And I agree. Right. I'm frustrated the situation, too. Yeah, yeah. So. And then you can just see in their body, they decompress, they deflate. And now we can actually begin problem solving and have a conversation. Even if it just means. Even if the parents totally in the wrong. Right. Or just off the rocker a little bit. Um, it allows that conversation to just go so much better. And then, you know, I'll have staff that are outside my doors that, you know, will overhear the conversation going on in my office, and they'll say, how do you. How'd you do that? Yeah, yeah, I just listened. I allowed them to speak, and I responded respectfully. But I love the vocabulary you're bringing up.

Speaker C: Yeah. And you help them regulate. That's what you help them do. So what's happening in their brains? A couple things I want to touch on. What's happening in their brain is when we are feel. We feel like we need to protect ourselves. I'm feeling defensive or angry. When we're dysregulated, our brain, the front part of our brain, uh, the smart part of our brain, the part that helps us problem solve and critically think and be logical and professional, goes offline, and our amygdala takes over. Our amygdala is in charge of our survival, and it does a very good job. Fight or flight lives in our amygdala. It's that rush of fear or anger. Right. And logic does not live in that amygdala. Right. So when we are. When someone experiences being heard. Right. And I like to say that much more than I am listening, it's actually. Did you feel heard? It doesn't matter if I was listening. Right. So when someone feels heard, it signals to their brain for the smart part of their brain, the prefrontal cortex, to come back online. That's the part that you can have a conversation with until, um, then you are listening to help. You're looping for understanding, to help them regulate. And one thing that keeps people. This is maybe one of the biggest things. There's two big things that keep my coaches and leaders from listening. Being willing to listen is they confuse understanding someone with agreeing with them. They're different. I can totally understand what someone is saying. I can. I can understand all the things they are under what they're saying, and I cannot agree with them. And it does not keep me from having them feeling understood.

Speaker B: Yeah, there's, uh. I'm just racking my brain now. Of all the conversations that have literally been that exact outcome of. We are talking about something really tough. Parents or teachers, uh, have a very relevant and, uh, you know, legitimate perspective, concern, argument, whatever it might be. And I sit there sometimes, and I just think, yeah, I 100% get it. However, I have to just be on the other end of it on this case.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And it's so tricky to kind of walk that. That tightrope in that conversation. But I think you're kind of giving people experiencing that conversation permission to still disagree. That's not. That is an okay thing.

Speaker C: And I would actually. I want to give you a little bit of a language shift. When I disagree with someone, I like to use the word and instead of but or however. Right. Button. However, the same thing. Right. So, uh, yeah, I totally get that you feel like lesson planning every week is really hard. Right. And I get that it impacts the children in your classroom. And I also get that's also really important to you. You. Right. So using the word and instead of but psychologically helps them come with me. Right. Something my dad used to say was when you say but, it negates everything you just said.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I'm gonna stop listening now because I know what you're gonna say is something I don't like.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: And so.

Speaker A: And.

Speaker C: And is totally true. It's totally accurate to say you are experiencing this, you believe this, you want to do this, and. Right. I have this point of view, or I have this thought they can exist at the same time.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love it.

Speaker C: So the other. The other thing I did want to share, and this has been a fascination of mine, that is one of the biggest walls, uh, barriers, I should say, for effectiveness with leaders. One of the biggest. And I've just, like, really dug into this, I think, since the last time you and I talked, I created. Created a continuum. All right? So this is called the expectation continuum. The. One of the biggest barriers to effectiveness of experience and leaders is their shoulds. And this is one of the things that keeps people from actually listening to someone else, because I think you shouldn't do that or you shouldn't think that way or you should do this. Right. And when I have a should about someone, they feel it. Neural entrainment is not happening. And I'm not listening to them. I'm listening to my own thoughts and judgments about what they're saying. So here's the expectation continuum. On one side are the shoulds. On the other side is support. And we want to shift from shoulding someone and making a mess uh, to support. And how do we do that? A should is an expectation plus a judgment. A support is an expectation plus curiosity. That's how we shift. We want to start acknowledging, ooh, I have a judgment about that. About how they think or what they're doing. Right. At the end of the day, no matter if you're like, no, but it is wrong. Right. Whatever it is, I get it. When we sit in our shoulds, we cannot be effective. We cannot impact people.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that's. That is a tricky thing as leaders. Right. There are things that, you know, and even in my role, I feel like a middleman in some cases because there are things that I, you know, have beliefs about or a way that I might go about something, but there are things that are just out of my control. And so then I've got other people below me or, you know, quote unquote below me, or people that I am in charge of that I'm responsible for making sure that this thing happens. So communicating it in a way or supporting people versus telling them this should happen, or I feel like it's almost synonymous with I need you to, uh, or you need to, um. It just comes off in our heads so negatively versus how can I go about this with a support, uh, lens.

Speaker C: Right. Shifting from the shoulder to how can I support them in.

Speaker B: Yeah. So we've talked a lot about now. We've got a good overview of the mindsets we've learned, this new continuum. I'm excited. Oh, we need a visual for that. Um, I would love for this to kind of transition into the coaching conversation. I'm stoked. Like I said, I just went through all of our school data. We've been meeting as teams, uh, and committees, uh, today. And so again, this is something that I'm already thinking about next year. School just got out, summer's here. I'm ready for next year now. But I would love for you to walk me through, you know, what a typical coaching conversation could look like with these mindsets in play.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. Um, so one thing I wanted to kind of talk about is you took the quiz.

Speaker B: Yes, I did take the quiz.

Speaker C: Yeah. There's a free quiz just everyone knows and I'll give you the link. Right. And there's a quiz that helps us start to assess what, uh, what mindsets our team that we're working with might need support in. I say might. Right. Like, it's not like a 15 question quiz can, like, tell us the facts of it, but it gives us a place to start. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so if. If this is it. So let me. Let me ask you this. When I. I want. I want to talk to you about a mindset.

Speaker B: So you.

Speaker C: When you took the quiz, you got the ebook. Were you able to kind of breeze through? Yes, the ebook. Okay.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: All right, good. So which mindset fascinated you the most?

Speaker B: That's a good question. I. We always talk in our school so much about, um, ownership, right? Like, every single thing that we do and even on our rubric, right, from one to five that we evaluate teachers on is one being for their instruction, total, um, teacher ownership to five being very high levels of student ownership. So for me, that word of ownership really stands out, um, as. As key.

Speaker C: Yeah. Like, who's owning the learning? The teacher. Like, uh, is it synonymous to teacher led? A teacher led classroom versus a student led classroom?

Speaker B: Yes, essentially. Right. Like, yeah. So ideally, in a perfect world, the teacher is, you know, they're teaching the lesson, but then students are taking ownership over expectations in the classroom. They might be leading certain parts of the lesson. They might be m. Leading, uh, models or exemplars or, um, leading group work. Right. So they're highly incorporated into the lesson, where the teacher is not just the sage on the stage, Right?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And so I want to name a few things about ownership before I coach you. One thing is every mindset, just like growth mindset, kind of has an opposite mindset, and every mindset's on a continuum. There's not the way we talk about growth mindset. I have a growth mindset. I have a fixed mindset. No, it is an operating system. I'm operating under a mindset, and it's somewhere on a continuum. Usually it's mixed. It's a mixed mindset. Right? So. So the opposite mindset for ownership mindset is a victim mindset. Okay? So I want. You know, this is. So you would hear things like, what would. What would it sound like to operate under a victim mindset?

Speaker B: Oh, well, the first word that comes to mind is icky. Uh, it wouldn't sound very good. Um, I feel like a victim mindset would be, well, this is happening to me. This is all, um, I don't have any power or control in this, in anything that I do.

Speaker C: Um, yes, really great. So one of the first things that I do with. So remember, ownership mindset is agency plus the other four mindsets, right? So I can't do anything about it. So one thing I actually like to do is called agency mapping. So we actually look at what are the elements of school with a teacher or a coach or a leader. What is, ah, what are all these areas? Where is. And we start to rate it on little continuums. How much agency do I actually have realistically in them? And what I find and what people I work with find is they actually have more agency than they realize. Because we have this, a lot of times we have this permission culture. Oh, I thought I had a permission. No. Right. So for us to start to ask ourselves and as a leader. Right, so here's my coaching for you. And here's my, my question for you. What part of your job have you wanted to impact but you haven't been able to yet? So it's a goal.

Speaker B: I think that. Oh, I like that question a lot. Um, I think the obvious answer. And for me, and again, assistant principals everywhere have different responsibilities, but for me the big one is, um, I'm heavily focused on behavior. And so I think the one aspect that I don't get to have as much influence on is the instruction. Right. Helping coach teachers instructionally, I'm coaching them behaviorally, um, quite a bit. I'm helping implement interventions all the time. Um, but I don't get to help instructionally as much as I would want.

Speaker C: Is that part of your job description?

Speaker B: Definitely.

Speaker C: Okay, great. All right. It's so. Well, you know, I have to ask people because sometimes it's like, oh, it's a thing I want to do, but it's actually not my role to do it. Right. Like role clarity is so important. Right. Okay, good. Oh, this is so good. Oh, I'm so excited to coach you on this. All right, so I want to bring you through one of my, uh, frameworks that's called grip. And I like to be like, get a grip. I'm very dramatic about this, but GRIP is an acronym. Okay. So we're going to go through the, the G, R, I, P. The G is what is your goal? So go ahead and name it very clearly. What is a goal that you have,

Speaker B: uh, related to that specific. Okay.

Speaker C: What is that goal?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: I think the goal for me would be to have intentional, um, instructional support for identified teachers. Right. I know I can't change the entire system. Um, but I would like to identify teachers that I can support instructionally on a regular basis.

Speaker C: Really? Great. What, so the R's result, what would be the most optimal result if you accomplish that goal? Like, I want you to name the perfect outcome.

Speaker B: The perfect outcome would be that the teacher no longer needs my support and is able to see high, high levels of instructional success with her students or his students.

Speaker C: How would, how would they feel?

Speaker B: They would feel empowered and confident and competent, um, and clear on what their job is every single day. The resources they have available to them and have that sense of agency to, um, have an impact on the kids that they serve.

Speaker C: And how would you feel?

Speaker B: I would feel proud, Um, I would feel incredibly proud, um, of the work that they do, but of the kids as well. But, um, I think my whole goal is to work myself out of a job. Yeah, right.

Speaker C: Yeah, right. Yeah, you'd feel proud, like, oh, more children are learning in classrooms. More teachers are like, satisfied and feeling empowered in their classrooms. Right? Mhm. Can you imagine coming home from a day where you got to get in all the classrooms that you wanted to get into?

Speaker B: Yeah, it would feel really awesome. I would feel accomplished.

Speaker C: Yeah. And maybe even energized.

Speaker B: Definitely.

Speaker C: I don't know.

Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. I felt like leaving today. Even just talking about successes and um, the instructional data with our staff, it left me feeling very energized. I don't even feel like we're on summer yet. I feel like school is still tomorrow.

Speaker C: Mhm. That's really great. So the next piece of this framework, and we're not going to have you do it on the podcast, but I'm just going to tell everyone. The next thing that you do is you'd actually close your eyes and visualize this perfect outcome. Right. What is the most optimal outcome? I'm actually taking back the word perfect. I tried very hard not to use the word perfect. Um, but the most optimal outcome. Right. And I asked you all those questions because what we want to do, this is a pro athlete move. And I literally mean pro athlete. Pro athletes do this. They close their eyes and visualize. Like Michael Phelps talks about this. He closes his eyes and he visualizes before the Olympics, swimming his meat. Because our brains can't actually tell the difference between when we visualize something, between what's. What we are thinking about in our head, the visualization, and what's happening in the real world. Can't tell the difference. It's crazy. So this is really important. So I wanted it to get vivid for you. What is that optimal outcome? Because we tend to focus on what could go wrong, like our fears. Right, right. So the I is impediments. What roadblocks and barriers have been coming up that have kept you from helping teachers instructionally?

Speaker B: Uh, I think time, uh, time spent on managing student behaviors and trying to provide that level of support. Because I know that's a high priority for our district and it's a high priority for, um, my principal.

Speaker C: Yeah. Really great. Is time really the main impediment?

Speaker B: Uh, no, I think it's more about. I think in the, in the beginning it truly was, um, but I really had to look back at it and think about the system of support. And so I find my time, quote unquote, now, um, has been more dedicated towards, uh, designing and building a system to respond to behavior that doesn't just include me, um, but empowers and incorporates other staff. And so we've seen, I mean we cut our behavior, uh, calls from 50 by 50% from last year to this year. And so it's working. Right. So now that time feels available. Right.

Speaker C: Again, what inside of you, not external circumstances. What inside of you has been an impediment?

Speaker B: Um, I think personally for me, it's a new building. Um, it's, it's not a great. You know, I haven't ever a student taught in elementary, but I haven't taught professionally, um, since student teaching in the elementary level. And so it's all new. It's new curriculum. I've never taught. It's. So there's all those instructional nuances that are still new to me. Um, I've picked up a lot of things over the couple of years I've been here, but I think there's still a lot of in depth content knowledge that I'm still growing in.

Speaker C: Yeah. And knowing that. Right. Is there a part of you that is prioritizing these parts of the job that you're like, oh, I know how to do this

Speaker B: to a certain degree. Um, because I don't think I knew all the system design aspect of it all either until I was in it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker B: So I think it's been just a slow and gradual process of. I take, I'm taking this one area. I'm gonna learn a whole lot about it. And that's been behavior. Right. And it still will continue to be in certain ways, but I think for the first two years I've definitely put instruction as far as specific academic content knowledge on the back burner. Doesn't mean I haven't. Haven't observed teachers or coach teachers, but it's just not to that type of depth.

Speaker C: Yeah. So the P is plan. Right. So we've named some impediments. One is time. You're spending a lot of time dealing with behavior. And the other impediment is kind of this kind of content knowledge. Right. So let's Make a plan. The plan is. It's a kind of a sentence scaffold. If this happens, then I will do this, but also proactively. Um, not if this happens. To avoid impediment, I will. So which one do you like? The if then or to avoid.

Speaker B: I like if then.

Speaker C: Okay, good.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So let's make a plan. If. And name one of your impediments.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So if I put, uh, intentional energy and time learning specific content or instruction, you know, those specific, uh, instructional pieces, um, then I will be more equipped to, uh, support teachers at the instructional level, at the depth of which I'm hoping that's a. It's a mumbo jumbo of words, but hopefully it makes sense.

Speaker C: No, it makes perfect sense. And I actually want to shift it just a little bit so that everyone really gets this. The. The what you're actually. I'm gonna. The if is actually if the impediment happens. So. And I'm. I'm proactive. You're being proactive. So it's to avoid feeling.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Like I don't know the content.

Speaker B: Right, right.

Speaker C: Is that. Is that accurate?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. To avoid feeling like I don't know the content. I will. And what's your plan?

Speaker B: Yeah, I, um, will dedicate time to either observing from experts, learning from experts, or digging in myself.

Speaker C: Great. And if I was a great thought partner with you, I would say, by. When are you going to do that?

Speaker B: By fall of next year.

Speaker C: Great. Right. And then if I. If I was working with you, I would be like, we're putting it on the calendar. I'm checking in with you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I'm intense, but it's. Right. So talking. We're going to go back to ownership.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: How did that. And then we would do the same, by the way, the. The same plan for your time. Right. We kind of had a confidence thing and a time thing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Right. So to avoid.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Not having time for. For, uh, to go into classrooms, I will.

Speaker B: Oh. Um, well, to avoid not having time to go into classrooms, I'll make sure that a quality, uh, system of support for behaviors in place, which we're doing. But I'll also be proactive in how I approach my time during the day or how I approach that intentional learning over the summer. Um, that way I'm prepared to make the time.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. And as your coach, I would keep probing, and I'm not gonna make you do this right now, but I would say, what does that look like? What M. System are you going to use? Are you going to use a, a calendar system, like I would be, I would be listening for actions.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Not just I'm going to be intentional, but intentional isn't an action. Right, right. Um, so I'd keep drilling down to what does this actually look like? And what are all the pieces, all the little tasks that it takes to actually help you accomplish this? Because you're a smart person, you're a passionate person, you're committed. So if you have not accomplished this, you have a serious impediment. Right. And so me as your partner. Right. Your coaching partner, I'm going to keep asking because it's not going to be typically for folks like us to take ownership over a goal we've not been able to achieve. It takes something.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I appreciate you saying that, um, intentional isn't an action. Um, because there's a lot of that language that gets thrown out there. And so putting it down on paper and having that person to communicate with, um, that you trust. Right. Obviously it's all those pieces are in place, but that is super important, um, so that those things don't slip. Because in education, man, even in my job, it is so easy to say, uh, this is taking priority, this fire is burning right now, I've got to attend to it. And then things get pushed off.

Speaker C: Exactly. How can we be intentional? Right. And so when we're looking at ownership, when we're looking at developing any of these mindsets, uh, and other people, we have to look at ourselves first. Right. And so that's the, that's the element. So you can start to see, um, I just had a thought that I. Kelly came and went. But you're starting, you're starting to see, right? Like, oh, I wanted to share about accountability. This is wild. In the research I was researching accountability and I created kind of a framework around constructive versus destructive accountability. I got really curious about. We throw this accountability word around all the time. What do we mean? And there's like lots of different ways we can look at formal versus informal accountability. This is what I found though. In general, accountability has a constructive. Accountability has a major positive impact on people. M. And that is self regulation. Isn't that wild?

Speaker B: Yeah, I never would have thought about that.

Speaker C: I know. I was blown away when I was reading it. And it makes sense. For example, if I held you accountable to learning the content that you said you would learn, if I said, okay, by when will you learn this one? I'm going to be texting you.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Mm.

Speaker C: Will that help you regulate to get it Done.

Speaker A: Probably.

Speaker C: Knowing. Knowing. I'm not saying it's a perfect. Right. Knowing there's someone outside of you.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Expecting you to do it.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And especially for my particular personality, if, uh, I don't know and I say superior or if, you know, I'm a rule follower. And so if someone's expecting something of me, I need to make sure that I'm meeting that expectation. That's just how I am. But definitely having the outside pressure helps.

Speaker C: Do you have a hard time working with people that are not rule followers?

Speaker B: Yes. Uh, to a certain degree.

Speaker C: I think it's so common.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Being in this job now, I try to see as many sides as possible, and I try to understand people as best as I can. But, yeah, for me personally, if I. If I'm not following a rule, it's gonna. I'm gonna have some nervousness about it or I'm gonna have questions about it and ask.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We tend to have shoulds. And I'm, you know, I'm just like. There's things about me, too. Like, I, um. I don't know. I was in the classroom. I was excellent at teaching social emotional learning. Like, excellent. And I ran workshops, uh, for the teachers at my school on how I did it. And I was not effective because I could not. I was very good at it. Right. And it was very important to me. And I couldn't translate all that to say a lot of times if it was something we're very good at or it's a strong part of our. Our personality or identity. We actually have a hard time unless we've intentionally developed this understanding people that aren't like us. Uh, yeah.

Speaker B: And, yeah, being able to recognize that is really important. Really important.

Speaker C: Step one is noticing it.

Speaker B: Notice. Uh, I feel coached. I feel like now you're gonna have to start texting me this whole summer. Are you getting your summer list done? Oh, my gosh. That's so powerful. And there's the way you did that. The way you phrase your questions, the way you probe thinking. Um, it's all done in a way that is. You've brought this word up several times. But curious. Um, it's not a. I've got you. You know, I'm doing this to you. Um, you're not under a microscope. It's. It's supportive. Um, and if you're an educator that's in a role to coach others, you just had a masterclass on how to coach effectively. So thank you, Becca.

Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you for letting me do that.

Speaker B: Of course. I Had to be a little vulnerable, of course. But that's the whole point. That's the whole point. Um, Becca, I want to give you the opportunity. This has been absolutely wonderful. Um, please share with the audience how can they connect with you and support your work?

Speaker C: Yeah, there's a few ways. One is I have my own podcast. It's called Coaching the Whole Educator. So if you're interested in learning more about a human centered approach to coaching and leadership, you can check that out. It's on all podcast plot, all major podcast platforms, Apple podcasts, all the. The Spotify, uh, all of them. Another place is my website, the wholeeducator.com. you can check out the programs. I do keynotes, and I have my Human Centered Academy, where I teach about the five, um, the five Catalyst mindsets. And I really specialize in helping people break through resistance in a human centered way. Uh, so folks can check that out. And I have a really exciting announcement which is I am finalizing a recorded curriculum called the Resistance Remedy. And it is six modules on the Catalyst mindsets on how to reduce resistance. And it's super affordable. And so I'm gonna be running a special. I'm gonna be releasing this. I'm looking at my calendar right now, July 21, and there will be a 50% off special, July 21 through middle of August. I know, I'm like, super pumped because I can get it into people's hands right at the beginning of school. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So we can learn all these ways. How do we understand resistance? How do we diagnose it, and. And what do we do about it? Right. And so I wanted to share that as well. I'll send you the link when it is kind of up and running and the, the, the discount code and all of that. Um, but yeah, no, those are the major ones that, uh, folks. And if folks are like, I want to dabble in this mindset thing, they can do what you did, which is take the free quiz and I'll send you that link as well. Um, you know, just so. So if you're like, I wonder which mindsets my team needs to work on and what's cool is once you take the, the quiz, you. You get told like, hey, your. Your team needs support and value mindset. And then you get emailed an ebook.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: More, More details.

Speaker B: Absolutely Exciting news. I would strongly recommend for anyone listening, do what Becca said. Take the quiz. Um, get started with it. It gives you at least a starting point. And then I will say, becca, you have been so kind. Uh, you're very responsive. So if you're interested in connecting with her on social media, shooting her an email, oh my gosh, she just wants to connect and help. Um, so by all means, please connect with Becca. Uh, um, you've been nothing short of amazing. Thank you for the coaching. Thank you for the time. Thank you for your thoughtfulness. I am nothing short of appreciative. So thank you. Thank you.

Speaker C: This was so much fun.

Speaker A: That's it for today's episode of the EdEssentials podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you found value in this conversation, it would mean a lot if you'd share it with a colleague, leave a rating or review or tag me on social media essentials to keep this conversation going and connect other people like yourself with this show. And if you have a question, topic, idea, or just want to connect, send me an email@edessentials.networkmail.com that's edessentials.networkmail.com until next time. Keep leading, keep learning, and thanks for being part of this edessentials, uh, community.

Speaker C: This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to get you there. Explore more podcasts at teachbetter. Com Podcast and we'll see you at the next episode.