Zayna Rose, Image Strategist & Communications Consultant: Elevating Your Image as a Tech Leader

Speaker A: From 7ctos. My name is Etienne de Bruyne and you're listening to the CTO Podcast. Every week I spend time with fascinating people that enrich the lives of chief technology officers around the world. From perfecting the basics of building technology organizations to inspiring our minds into shaping our future. As always, the CTO podcast is brought to you by seven CTOs. Helping CTOs become world class leaders. Let's go. Today I talked to Zaina Rose. She's an image strategist and communication consultant and she signed me up as a client to work with her on my saggy jeans and my tie dyed T shirts. Um, she and I talk, Zain and I talk about the importance of being intentional, about what you convey, the image that you put forth in the world, what you, to spare a, ah, thought about what you wanted to convey. And we talk about shopping experiences, colors, overtones, undertones. And we talk about a very easy thing you can do to get started in thinking about how you present yourself to the world. So enjoy. Zaina, welcome to the CTO podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you. Good to be with you.

Speaker A: We, uh, met at a conference about

Speaker B: two years ago, a year and a half ago.

Speaker A: Year and a half ago. And was, uh, really struck by, uh, the accolades you were receiving about helping people dress themselves, brand themselves, carry themselves. And I was thinking about my own life and about how, how little I want to think about what I'm wearing and um, how much I could use your help. So thanks for being on the show with us.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk to you some more. We've had some really good conversations and last week I saw you at your excellent event 0111.

Speaker A: What was it like being at the conference for you? Non technical, not your space, being surrounded by, by ctos.

Speaker B: Well, that was so, as you know, that was my second time and so I, but even the first time, when I arrived last year for my first time attending, I was excited. I love to be surrounded by people who have an expertise that I don't have. It's just, um, it's such accelerated learning. You happen to have one of the most friendly, one of the most friendly communities that I've had the pleasure to be invited to be with. Um, so it was, it was, you know, it's always like when you can get super kind people and an intellectually stimulating environment. That's one of the best things.

Speaker A: I love that. Thank you. Friendly. Because, um, I asked them to be super friendly.

Speaker B: Well, it worked. And it lasted for two years.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. No, I Love that. So why don't you tell uh, our audience what you specialize in? And of course I know and I actually use, uh, your service and I'm um, loving it. So why don't you tell people what it is that you do?

Speaker B: I'm an image strategist and communications consultant and it really is, um, the specialty is about how we present ourselves both in personal and professional context. So the overarching term you could use is leadership presence. And I call it profitable leadership presence. You could also call it personal branding, you could call it public image development. But however we refer to it, every person has a different situation and a different personality. And it is about how do we present ourselves to our audiences, our other stakeholders, the people in our lives, how do we connect and how do we form relationships. So really it's about how to accelerate connection and how to grow our own personal senses of self expression and our satisfaction within our self expression. And how can we remain truly authentic and also be strategic at the exact same time?

Speaker A: Yeah, obviously working with CTOS and uh, being in our 7 CTOS network, we do talk a lot about executive presence, expanding your influence, uh, being a more emotionally intelligent leader. But you know, in all of those, um, contemplations and conversations, we, we don't really think about what we look like.

Speaker B: Yeah, so the, one of the, so when I spoke to the group last year, we have three major things we touched on. One was visual identity, one was stage presence, and the third was connection style. And all of those really work together. And when you do look at, um, within the context of first impressions, digital or live in person, uh, what we see makes up a large portion of what we perceive. So it's how we, our visual identity that's made up of how we move, our facial expressions and our posture and of course our clothing and our grooming. And all of those things work together. And when they're not in alignment with how we really want to be and how what makes us feel good, it can work against us for sure. And it's an easy thing to fix.

Speaker A: I absolutely relate to that because, uh, two things I think I told you when I was raised by my parents, my dad. My dad. M. I think my dad thought he was doing me a huge favor and I thought it was kind of cool. But he, he basically told me I should never worry about my appearance. Um, and for a, for a teenage boy going to high school, that meant not taking care of my hair. And so he wouldn't let me, my mom, like blow dry my hair or Work on my, my hair. Uh, uh, I grew up in an environment where putting gel in your hair was absolutely unacceptable. Um, and so I think what that meant for me growing up was just my story was that I didn't. For me, dressing down, being comfortable, it was comfort first. And I think the problem with comfort first is you just never learn to be comfortable in clothes that look good. Or I, uh, mean, maybe if you're lucky. But for me, it was basically jeans, T shirts and flip flops to be comfortable in that. I think when I'm around the house and all that is fine. But then when I have to go out, you know, I start feeling, I don't know, I don't like thinking about what I have to wear to be socially acceptable.

Speaker B: I mean, in a lot of ways, that was a nice act of love that he gave you to try to tell you that it doesn't matter. You know, we shouldn't be judged by our appearance. And I completely agree. And beyond that, advocate for it. Um, and I still operate by comfort first for people. There are very, very few circumstances in which I have to say, I know you're uncomfortable, but we have to do this just briefly, you know, that we have so many resources, so many tools, so many materials out there that we can use that you can still be comfort first. Um, and I had. My dad actually was in another way, kind of gave me the same message. He wore. He wore tennis shoes with suits. If he had to wear a suit, he taught me it was fine to slap a coat on over your PJs to go get breakfast, like. And I think that's kind of great. You know, it's, um, it's a type of lesson that it's, it's nice to have. And now that we're in the positions we're in, how do we to convert that information for it to still be valuable and helpful and for us to still be comfortable, but also be super proud of how we present ourselves and possibly even excited about it.

Speaker A: But so let's say, uh, I am the leader of my company and I am, uh, you know, I'm in the role of CTO or, uh, another C suite role, or maybe even just an executive role. What I wear certainly can add or subtract from what image I'm trying to portray or, you know, what, what, what groundbreaking, mission critical stuff I'm trying to communicate. Uh, what I wear certainly can't be comfort first.

Speaker B: It can be, though, because it's about credibility more than anything. And so what you wear for us to optimize it should be in harmony with your, the lines of one's body, with our personal coloring, with our true personality style. Right. And so, you know, if someone has a role where they have to wear a suit and that's very important, and they're not comfortable in a suit, that's, that's one instance. But for, certainly for the tech leaders that, that you and I both know, um, I call it casual power looks because it is more based around what would have more traditionally been called smart casual clothing. And it could certainly be T shirts and jeans. It's about which ones we choose, what are the fabrics, colors, what's the construction, how is it put together, how are we using pattern and other materials and is that harmonious with us or is it distracting from us? And then of course it's, you know, we want to go to create star power, however subtle. And that's a big part of having leadership presence. Because how many times have we perceived someone, either that someone that we knew or had met or someone on the street where we thought that person looks like they're in charge of something, they look like they run the place, they look like they're famous, but I just don't know who they are. You know, that's, it's, it's energy. It's the energy that we exude. And we can exude it if what we've, how we've, you know, curated ourselves is in alignment with who we really are. So if you think of the clothing and the grooming as our tools and it's almost like a gate that can be open if it's the right stuff for us. And we can, you know, emit our more confident vibration, our more energetic, credible vibration. And when we are not happy or self conscious with how we look. And it's, it's, it's for us first, it's for the perception of others second. Or maybe it's a tertiary factor, depending on the situation.

Speaker A: But so I, I love that. I think cognitively it makes sense to me that you need to be comfortable in your clothes, but I don't feel like that is enough because I, I am comfortable in jeans, flip flops and a T shirt. But not every event I go to calls for that. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah. So we have to have what's comfortable for you in each level. We need go to go to looks for you in each level. So one category is major media interview, speaking on stage. You know, there might be a separate category with awards banquet or something very formal. And then there's your Everyday, um, attire. And there are special occasions, like going to pitch to investors. And what does that, you know, how do we want to present you for that occasion? And that depends on what the person's role is in the room, who else is going to be in the room, what's the venue, what's the. What are we selling, what are we trying to get? You know, so putting all the information together and truly strategizing about what would help you to be the most confident and what sends the message we want to send.

Speaker A: Yeah, I am listening to you, and I'm just thinking it's, uh, too much.

Speaker B: Every time you pause, I'm waiting for you, you know, like, okay, he disagrees. No, but you sound like you're gonna disagree, and then you don't, which is what's so great.

Speaker A: No, I. I think, uh, you know, having been in my body for so long, um, and having been around so many technical geniuses and incredible CTOs for so long, I. I marvel sometimes at the. The clothing choices not only that they make, but that I make, which is, you know, it's. It's. It's not. It's not good.

Speaker B: Oh, gosh, okay. Well, you said that. I didn't say that. Um, here's the thing.

Speaker A: I mean, there's a. There's a. Let me just qualify that. So there is obvious neglect, right? So you can tell someone isn't taking care of. So, um, maybe it's the CTO of a small startup. Um, maybe they're in their office all day. Maybe they're still building, building, building, and it's, um. You know, there's. There's just neglect because, you know, they haven't been getting out much. And I feel. I feel really sorry because, you know, in m. Many ways, there's, uh, uh, there's an impediment towards getting to know them because there's just a, uh, you know, there's. There's. There's just something that. That isn't working now. You know, obviously, as adults, we can look past that and we can. Obviously, you know, you can engage regardless of that. But if I think about the, um, how incredibly important our voice is as technology leaders and everything from speaking too softly, not really enunciating your words, to not really owning the room, spe the presence into the space that you're occupying all the way to the jacket that you chose, like, I am not really vain in that sense. Or should I say I'm not really, um, a fashionista about these things. But there is a. It seems like There's a human, a non verbal unconscious, like you said, relationship that is without the use of words.

Speaker B: It is, and it's the, the reason that I do what I do is this is possibly related to why you help CTOs to become better leaders. You know, it's. And, and the question is, would it, and it depends. For some people, yes. For some people, maybe not. But how valuable would it be to create presence as if you were not behind the scenes? Right? As if you were in front of the scenes. And it doesn't, it's not about being showy, it's not about being flashy, it's not about when it comes to the clothing aspect. It's not about I'm not a fashionista either. It's about, it's about having a well rounded presence and the facility to move between you know, the different aspects of ourselves. We're all multifaceted, you know, people. And sometimes being more formal is what we need to do. And sometimes being at our most casual and relaxed is perfectly suited to the occasion, you know, based on the room and who's in the room and what our goals are. Um, but it is true that so much of perception happens on the non conscious level. So it's like setting up a system in a new area that hasn't yet been set up. But in essence a set it and forget it. And then you can use your system and every once in a while make sure it's updated. So do you need like a operating. I'm going to, I'm out of my depth. You can upgrade your operating system every once in a while.

Speaker A: Uh, I like what you said about the different levels. So, uh, do you, do you, can, can you help us? Obviously there's the comfortable level. Um, how many levels do you think we should have? Or do you think it's just on a case by case? If I go to an award show, do I have to wear nice shoes and a blazer or a sports coat?

Speaker B: It certainly is. Does need customization. But just for general, you know, for some people, banquets and galas are occasions that they attend regularly. And for many of us, we don't attend that regularly. Um, so some people need a tux or a gown or dress like that area in their life. And some of us don't only need something like that very rarely. So it's about asking yourself, okay, what are the weekly and monthly things that you do and then what are the occasional things that would pop up over the year? You know, so what's the most formal thing you'd ever need. And what's the least. So, for example, even one thing, one thing that I, that I do, um, ask people to consider often is even when you're someone who is T shirt and jeans and never wears a suit, I, uh, think a blazer, for example, is one of those items that you should really have in the wardrobe. Right. So there are certain things that aren't full suit, full tucks, things like that, but tailored items. And because the image of a tailored item is instantly takes you up a level in presence. Right. And different. And colors matter so much because there's the colors that, um, resonate with you and your energy. The colors that help you to look flattered and alert, awake, youthful, things like that. And then there's color psychology and how do we employ that amongst all of the other details, you know, so everything, um, is intentional and should be thoughtful and doesn't have to be a difficult thing. And it could just be a few things that, as I say, that you go with that are your go to items and that, you know, that you, you know, if you're going to regular networking events, how do you. And the question has to start with, how do you want to be seen and what helps you to feel good?

Speaker A: Yeah, I, um, went, you know, for, for our listeners, um, Zaina and I went shopping last, uh, week and two weeks ago, and something that I remember you saying, so we went to a mall and we went to various stores, and you basically had reserved some clothes for me to try on, and you'd have picked some stuff out. Uh, an amazing experience, by the way, for anybody listening. Uh, wow. It's quite incredible to have a professional work with you to find you the clothes that you didn't have to decide if this janky corduroy actually worked for you or doesn't. Um, but something that you said regularly, um, uh, which I don't know if you even realize this was. You said the tailored look. The, the. The. The look. I think. I think when we wore my shirt over my shirt or something, uh, you said, uh, there's a. There's. It won't just look. It will look like it's been put together or like it's been tailored.

Speaker B: Yeah, Intentional. Like a, like custom, complete. Yeah. Customized to you for sure. And we just started our process, but since we were in the same city for a minute, we took advantage of that and got started with a few things. And in the few looks we built for you, you know, just really simple, comfortable things that fit well. Um, and this idea, you know, Jeans are not all equal. Sneakers are not all equal. You have to find the ones that, that really um, help you to, to you know, help you to live the way you want to live essentially had. Because it shouldn't be a lot of effort to put yourself together. It should be when you have what you need at your place, you're really then deciding, who am I going to speak to? What's that about? What's the weather, you know, fit in, you know, what, what is all the context that you have to consider and then make your decisions. And that can be super easy. But again, if you have a system and you know you can be adding to that, trading things out and the idea is to take it off your plate, frankly, to consider it, get it worked out and then not have to be concerned with it.

Speaker A: And uh, yes, well, that's what I love. Um, but I'm also um, I definitely think there's a difference between. Oh, uh, um, you know, they dress themselves and their look is tailored.

Speaker B: Mm mhm. Sometimes it depends on the person. You know, I've worked with many, many clients in secret. People who did not tell their partners, their business partners. So I don't really know what they, those people in their life. I don't really know what was noticed and not noticed in a lot of cases because I kind of did my work secretly and disappeared. However, in a lot of cases people didn't. Uh, the idea is for it not to be this big drastic change unless that's what's needed. Unless that level of transformation is wanted and needed for good reason. You know, a lot of the time it's a very subtle adjustment, very subtle transformation. And the reason that it's good to start with that visual identity part, is that you get this instant boost in confidence. Even the most confident person I know, let's call it the most confident client, still felt even more confident and excited to the point where I was surprised that the compliments mattered to that person, you know, so you just never know.

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Speaker B: Happy to do it.

Speaker A: Yes. It's like a ghostwriter.

Speaker B: It's, you know, it's. That's less and less as time goes by. That for. For a large portion of my career, the confidentiality, I always will offer that as a default, but that is less, um, less seems to be less needed or less cared about recently.

Speaker A: Uh, you didn't offer me confidentiality. And here we are on a podcast talking about how you did me.

Speaker B: You blew your own confidentiality. You know, all of that translates directly into your. Whether you get up on a stage or in front of a group of investors or you get on camera for an interview like this, or in more traditional media, all of that is the first step, right? And then it's, for some reason, easier after that to explore more movement and voice. Not that it can't be done in reverse, but that gives fuel to the rest.

Speaker A: Movement and voice.

Speaker B: Movement and voice. I typically will work on that second after we've made adjustments to the visuals.

Speaker A: And what. What is the. I still want to stay on the visuals, though. Uh, when we. When you came and keynoted our, uh, conference last year, you did this color exercise on this on stage with, uh, three victims. Well, can you. Can you tell me more about the color. The color thing that you did?

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, so what we did was chose three people from our audience who all had different, you know, skin tones and hair colors. And the reason is I wanted to. We were in a. We were in a hotel ballroom type of thing. So the reason I bring that up is it's not natural lighting. So I needed people who looked very different from each other in order to have a clear demonstration of the effect of color. So color affects our energy. It affects the way, you know, how smooth our skin looks. It affects how, you know, the message of the overall outfit. For, like, a simple example is, um, wearing blue or green is a more, let's say, sympathetic, friendly. Brown is a friendly color to wear. Um, What. What is it? What do you think? The color yellow or orange. Those are very vibrant. The kind of citrus vibrant colors are joyful inherently and whatnot. The color black is a go to for many people, and it doesn't serve all of us. So for some, it's draining to energy and the complexion, and for others, it's energizing and looks wonderful. So it just. It depends on our undertone of our skin and whether we're cool or warm. So you happen to have a cool undertone, which means that cool colors are more harmonious with your complexion and your communication both. So it doesn't mean one person can wear blue and that person can't wear blue. There are different kinds of blues, different kinds of purples, greens. Uh, some people, as I say, it doesn't serve them to wear black. And then orange and pinks are, depending on the optimal palette, um, might be recommended or not. But for the most part, we can all wear all of the colors. It's just the type that we would choose. And in terms of visual credibility, what happens is, um, if the color is supportive of your complexion, we can perceive you as a whole, not the color being separate from you visually. And it is something that's distracting. And if you. It can be the difference between somebody focusing on, oh, your dress is great, your top is great. We want people to say you look great. And I know that there's semantics involved in there, but if you. Now that we've spoken about it, if you look at people, you can see if the color is, in essence, a bit separate from them, if it's coming before them or if it looks supportive. And you can still very clearly focus on their face, because those effects can be very exaggerated on camera and on stage. So we want. We do it because we want people to feel good, and we want people to focus on what you're saying.

Speaker A: Yes. Now, I think that's a very interesting idea that the color is separate from. From you. Um, I know black is a go to. I mean, I will wear black because I don't want to look as flabby as, um, other colors might make me look.

Speaker B: Here's the thing, though. Here's what's interesting about that, is that it doesn't work the way you think it works unless it's a good color for you. And because we've established that black is not in your optimal color palette to get the hiding effect that you want or the camouflage effect that you want, we need to use a dark charcoal or a dark olive or a dark plum. Something else. Because black's not doing what you think it's doing.

Speaker A: Okay, well, when we walked around the mall, you said I should get a zebra suit. That's very interesting that even. Yes. I mean, I think we all think colors be colors, and we just. We don't. I'm curious about what you said about me having cool undertones. What does that mean?

Speaker B: Yeah, okay. It's. It's a, uh, bit like how much. How light or dark our skin is, is more about the amount of melanin. And the cool and warm undertone is said to be more about the amount of hemoglobin. Scientists, please don't come after. I would not be doing this super great justice. But anyway, it's. It's. It's interesting to talk about because undertone is a bit hard to see. So I'll give you my example. I have, like, a medium skin tone. And growing up, if I came into contact with a makeup artist or someone of that nature, they always wanted to put bronze colors on me to try to match my overtone. But I don't look well. If you put those colors on me, I don't look well. I look tired. And, uh, you will say, are you okay? Yeah. And I knew it wasn't right, but I didn't really know what to do about it. Not that I wore a ton of makeup as a young person, but that's just an example of. It's not about matching the overtone. It's about looking. And so really how you find out if you're listening to this is you can test. I have a way that you can test yourself. It's not as effective as having someone do, uh, the virtual analysis, but you can do a little test. So whether you have towels or a tablecloth or something, or T shirts that you can hold up under your face to go cool versus warm and take selfies and see, you'll see. In which ones are you better able to focus on your face, and in which ones does your eye get drawn to the color? So you could do pink versus orange. You could do brown versus black. You could do, um, a blue red versus an orangey red. A, uh, blue green versus more of a lime green. Right. So it's just a. It's just a, uh. It's. It's just a process of elimination in the end, to understand which are the optimal types of colors. So for you, you need cool colors that are at least a little bit muted. Otherwise, we don't focus on your face as well.

Speaker A: So my bright orange Atari baby shirt

Speaker B: is, then you should be able to have what. You should be able to wear what makes you happy. So it's more when should you.

Speaker A: Oh, yes, yes.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It's also the win.

Speaker B: It's the when. Be happy in your Atari shirt. But don't go to the, uh, on camera interview in it maybe.

Speaker A: Or it's interesting that we.

Speaker B: Right. Be happy in your Atari shirt and your favorite ratty sweatpants or whatever it is.

Speaker A: There's a red shirt that I'm wearing right now. What is, what does that communicate?

Speaker B: It's a soft red. Um, and it's almost like, it. It's almost like a brick. Soft brick, kind of a red. So it's, it's just, it's simply supportive of you. So we got a few shirts from that same place because they, the color palette they were offering happened to be really good for you. So you got a blue and a green and a red. And the thing is, they just all have a little bit of softness to them.

Speaker A: For me, the big takeaway is that, yes, there are colors that either draw people sort of to, to your face or to listening to you. And there are colors that separate you from what you're trying to accomplish. And then the multiple levels of, hey, when I'm comfortable, who cares what I'm wearing? Uh, when I'm at home, just be comfortable. When I'm out for a little networking event or a little coffee date, you know, be mindful of what I'm wearing. And then, of course, there are various levels of those engagements.

Speaker B: Yeah, but be mindful and be comfortable can be the same. That's the, that's the thing we have to build.

Speaker A: Got it. What, what are you seeing, what are you seeing in CTOs that are, that are taking away from their presence?

Speaker B: Um, it's a similar. It's something I've seen as a theme my entire career. And it's. It's a simple thing that's also very understandable. As people in our fields and specialists, we're very focused on our craft and our work and doing good work and being good team members, um, and good leaders. The thing I see where I like to get involved is it's so common, specifically with tech leaders, where they are the most impressive person in their area. They are good leaders, and possibly not being recognized for that, certainly not by people who don't know them. And sometimes we need people who don't know them to recognize them as the top people, the top leaders as. As much as the CEO, as much as the founder. If they're not the founder or given equal measure. If they're, if they are a co founder, it's important that they have that caliber of presence and consideration. So it's, it's, it's that to have a bold personal brand and Bold meaning that it says something. Not that again, that it's flashy.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's, you hit the nail on the head there. I think a not being recognized or seen and then having a career of that where really you're just, you know, no, uh, one is complimenting the person who avoided a catastrophe because the catastrophe never happened and no one ever knew that was going to happen. To give one example. So, so, so where, where, where does one, where does one address that? How does one address that? Do you start asserting uh, yourself or do you start. What does one do?

Speaker B: Yeah. And again, it's obviously dependent, but your core digital assets are one place to begin. So it could be your social profiles, your LinkedIn, it could be whatever presence you currently have online, even if it's one platform. It means you have a public image. It means someone can look you up and perceive something or reinforce um, an opinion or perception that they had when they met you in person. So core digital assets, your profiles, your photos, any footage of you speaking, if there isn't any, to have some um, something that helps you position yourself. So that can be done in many different ways, but for, for someone to see you for the first time at a glance and feel the power of your presence is so valuable on so many levels and it does translate into, you know, it could affect income, it could affect, certainly affects connection, it affects opportunities. And um, then coupled with that, of course, the more important things. How are you showing your personality? Are you. Can you in a way that feels really good to you? What's your conversation style? What's your speaking style when you're addressing an audience or addressing a smaller group in a boardroom? You know, so for it uh, to all go together and to feel like you are using your voice well, that you are able to lead and have that credibility that you know that you certainly should own it, if that makes sense. You know, stepping into that a little bit and it's not always comfortable. Sometimes it's really needed though, especially you know, when you're looking for your next, your next opportunity, your next step, your next stage of growth and career and as a person and you want your communication, your presence to move with you.

Speaker A: So the uh, you said you start with the visual image, then you move on to movement and communication.

Speaker B: Yeah, like all aspects of what you could say is stage presence, even if you're not on a physical stage.

Speaker A: Um, um, what are some tips or observations you have about stage presence?

Speaker B: Well, one thing is to test different speaking styles, you know, or to simply identify your natural speaking style. So one thing that, uh, we talked about with the group in the past is are you a more academic, artistic, or journalistic style of speaker? And that's, you know, that's. Who are your favorite speakers? How would they be classified? That sometimes will give you a clue. So one, identify your style that is more natural to you, because if we try to be, uh, in another style, it won't either be effective at all or effective long term. And then the other thing is to be a really good. Whether you are not you plan to interview people or you plan to be an interviewee, to have a really, um, good skill to improve the way you host, the way you interview someone, the way you are interviewed, that in and of itself will automatically take up your game in conversation and also in presentation skills for whatever reason. Working on that is a very leveraged piece.

Speaker A: Yeah. And as you're saying that, I'm reflecting on how often we think of knowledge as our currency. Like, I just have to be knowledgeable about something and then I will speak on it. I will do all my research on the knowledge, the holes in my arguments, the, the, the referencing, the, the analogies, whatever. And then the speaking is more of, hey, can I vomit my way through getting the knowledge out to people? And I, I, I went to a storytelling cohort, um, uh, Kimberly, Kimberly Weil. Uh, she, she was pretty amazing. She trains people to speak in at ted. And, uh, man, I was blown away by how much work goes into the speaking part. And I think as a, uh, if you're, if you're more extroverted, I think you just kind of like, well, well, I just got my three bullet points and I'm just gonna do comedy my way through the thing. And, and for many years, that's, that's just what I did as an extrovert. So I am, I am super comfortable in front of large groups of people. Like, I don't have a problem with that. Um, but I was really shocked at how much I was, uh, taking away from what I had to offer because I was so woefully unprepared or just completely, um, blase about my, what was coming across. And, and so I, I just reflect on CTOs. I've seen many, many talks given, and I can tell it's almost like you have the presentation and you just sort of con, you convey what's on the presentation and you just give it to the people. Presentation to the people. And with Kimberly's work, I realized, wow, man, there's, there's a whole narrative storytelling, bringing something alive in your audience that, that we just don't know how to do the.

Speaker B: And the message is certainly the most important thing, right? And then the speaking style is how do we deliver the message in such a way that it will not only land, but really get through and make an impact. And what can be missing is, um, the practice and the sense of working with the room. Because so much of the magic happens in collaboration with your audience, right? You feel the room and you pivot or you adjust or you work with what, who this group of people is in this moment. And those are some of the best presentations. And when someone enjoys, they remember better. Um, it's just about being engaging in your own way.

Speaker A: What is profitable? Presence.

Speaker B: If one's presence is profitable, it means that it's actively helping that person to gain more connection, gain more opportunities. It has two ingredients. One is intentional authenticity and the other is image intelligence. So really working to be intentional at least once in a while is something that is important because it's not without regard. Right? So we're making sure that we're giving ourselves that privilege of intentionally expressing ourselves, whether it be verbally, through movement, visually. And then image intelligence is the strategy behind how we would make our decisions about how to present ourselves. Whether that strategy comes from sales, psychology, technology, a combination of all those things. What are the things we need to know before we walk into the room and how can we tweak for that situation? For example, going to pitch to investors or going to give a presentation. Those are, you know, what are. Who is that? What is that room about? Who's in it? How do we need to make sure we come across? How do we need to deliver a particular type of first impression? And so that's the image intelligence. And that can be any manner of, um, um, you know, strategic advice or considerations.

Speaker A: I like the idea of thinking in terms of how is my presence going to, Is it going to. Am I going to have a net gain?

Speaker B: Yeah. Mhm.

Speaker A: Well, net neutral is. Hopefully no one sees me, no one misses me. I can just slip in and slip out.

Speaker B: Our expression and our personal image is either helping us or it's not. There's not a lot of middle ground in my personal experience in this field. So it doesn't mean that it's Drastically taking away from, from a person. But it's pretty, you know, going through a particular process. It's, it's not too strenuous to have it be on the positive side that it is helping you without too much effort.

Speaker A: Yeah, I, uh, uh, think when I leave my house, I want to be like, okay, what is my, what is my positive gain from this, from this interaction? And I think what I'm hearing from you is the intention of it. Um, and we, as you said, with profitable presence, that authenticity which doesn't make it contrived or salesy. Um, and then just being smart about the image, uh, that we are conveying. And um, yeah, I mean what, what someone is wearing or how they conduct themselves in a crowded room is, is, is loud. It's, it's, it's either wow, that guy looks unkept or wow, she looks really like, wow, she's, she's attracting attention and, or you know, whoever. Um, so, uh, if, if I want to help, I want to help CTOs, like what, what is the next thing we can do? Think about, we talked about color imaging, we talked about movement, uh, presentation. Like what is the first thing we can have them all do when they're done with this, listening to this chat? Like, what can they go do?

Speaker B: Okay, so I think we can say to think of this as a type of experiment because being authentic sometimes requires experimentation to find out what we feel best about, uh, what fits us. And I'm not talking about clothing, but just what fits us in terms of our self expression. And it's actually, I think an act of self love to give yourself that time to figure out how your self expression can improve how you feel about yourself and improve how you feel day to day. It is a very powerful thing. Um, one thing that's more tangible and practical is to look at all the points of digital first impression that we mentioned before. And how can we even just self evaluate how we come across on those points of digital first impression and also think about first impression walking into a networking event, um, a CTO lunch, um, an interview. Would you be comfortable and confident that you've presented yourself in the best way possible? And if the answer is no, then we have some questions to ask.

Speaker A: And what, what do we say to the person who's like, I don't, I don't really spend two seconds thinking about this. I put on my clothes and I go and have the CTO lunch? Who cares?

Speaker B: It might matter and it might not. Maybe they're naturally doing their thing really well, you know, so it certainly wouldn't be my place to say without meeting a person or talking to them and how they feel, whether they need to improve anything.

Speaker A: But, um, yeah, maybe the Led Zeppelin T shirt has served them well.

Speaker B: Yeah, maybe.

Speaker A: Will you. I mean, I, I, I think that the evaluating the digital presence is, is actually a stunning first step. You know, um, is it, you know, is it a space invader, uh, sprite, or is it a AI generated avatar, which I think is what I've been using? Um, or is it some random photo of you and your family? Or is it like, I, I can see how I like what you said about. Listen, if you are on the Internet, in some social media platform, you have a public image. M. So, uh, full stop, next sentence. What does that convey? What does that look like? What are you trying to share? And, um, to maybe put something into that.

Speaker B: What do you want it to convey? What do you need it to convey? Do we have a match? There is often a mismatch with many business leaders, many incredible business leaders, and this is just not an area of specialty that we're taught to consider. But the same way that we keep up our cvs, the same way we keep up our technology, we should also keep up our personal branding.

Speaker A: Great. Thank you, Zain. That's the show. Check out ctopod.com. stay connected. We love hearing from CTOS. We love hearing from CEOs. Anybody who needs to get their CTO plugged in, check out 7ctos.com. There are membership levels for everybody. So it's never too late to expand your network, nurture your relationships, and please, let's see each other soon, like next week. Cheers.