39: Unlocking Consultancy Success: Richard Brackstone on Growth, Strategy, and Leadership

Speaker A: Welcome to the Consulting Growth Podcast. I'm Professor Joe Omani, a professor of consulting at Cardiff University and an advisor to consultancies that want to grow. If you'd like to find more out about me and access some free resources to help your consultancy grow, do please visit joeomani.com that's J-O-E-O uh-M a h o n e y dot com. Welcome back to the Consultancy Growth Podcast. I have the genuine pleasure of being joined by Richard Braxtone today, uh, who has a very interesting career history when it comes to management, uh, consultancy. Um, he's currently the managing partner of Morehouse Consulting, but also a member of the board of Directors at the Management Consultancies Association.

Speaker B: Thank you very much, Joe. I'm delighted to be here with you.

Speaker A: Could you give us a bit of background about uh, your journey to Morehouse and how you ended up there?

Speaker B: Sure. Um, so potted history, you know, universities. I went to three, I traveled, uh, for three straight four years. Um, I taught, uh, so I taught in a state school, um, Bishop Stortford, uh, and. And rose through the ranks, uh, pretty quickly in terms of responsibilities that came my way. Uh, and then thought, well, if I don't jump from this, I will end up forever in education and no doubt down the headmasterly route. Um, so I stepped out and did an mba, and I did an MBA at Cranfield School of Management. Um, I didn't know anything about management consultancy. When I went into that course. There were 170 people on it. And I, uh, from a lowly quote unquote teaching background, um, had a very rapid learning curve. Um, but I started to understand projects and programs and mixed teams and getting involved with uh, various industries. I joined Anderson Consulting, um, who were also sponsoring our rugby club, uh, in uh, in Cranford School of Management. And then I lived within Anderson's. That then morphed into Accenture. So I was. It was that late, very late 90s into the start of this millennium. Um, uh, so I was there for nearly four years, um, and then essentially got headhunted out by uh, one of my clients in government. Um, so I went and worked in government for nearly 10 years in total across uh, across two big departments and worked in transformation director roles and COO roles, uh, and broader before I got into those titles. Program delivery, campaign management, uh, and everything that comes with, uh, working in central government. Those were the days of, uh, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, huge transformation programs. And I was, I was right in the middle of those. Um, and Then, um, as the coalition government came in and, and as ever consultancy stroke, um, interim cuts, uh, I came out of government, uh, and went back into financial services, which is where I started in Accenture and went and worked at Lloyds and ran the PPI program there. I think I was the um, operations Commander, um, of 18 billion, I think was our budget. Uh, and eventually, uh. And one of the people I had worked with, um, and the mba, uh, was at Morehouse Consulting. And he said, don't go to a big one, try a little one. Um, uh. And so I did. And um, 12 years later I'm still at Morehouse, uh, and we've gone through some very significant things, um, from BT ownership to MBO to uh, XPLIO ownership and everything in between in terms of the transition of leadership teams and a very rapid growth journey.

Speaker A: But I'm just interested in those different environments. What helped you do well, because different environments often reward different behaviors, uh, and different appetites to risk and communication and all the rest of it. So what allowed you to succeed in those very different worlds?

Speaker B: I work with people and I'm drawn to people that um, I find inspiring or respect, you know, or I can respect who they are and what, what they've done and I genuinely think I can learn from. And so coming through the route I described and coming into teaching that you know, there was a, at the time headmaster who, who I just thought was absolutely brilliant. And I thought if I stick in his space, then I will learn a lot. And I did learn a lot about leadership, um, about stakeholder management, um, about change and leading change, um, and about setting direction, uh, and at times holding firm to that direction, uh, but obviously taking in the environment that you're working in and how that's changing as well, but still getting things done. And I think that skill set, ah, um, uh, you build up, uh, quite a lot of resilience, I would say, um, coming through the career path and some of the things that I've described. You build up a lot of experience about people and how people behave and what motivates people and drives people, um, and you learn a lot about how to build teams, uh, and how to look to get the best from those teams. And I've always enjoyed problem solving. I like looking at something, uh, like all consultants and trying to work it out, uh, but knowing that um, the hardest part is knowing the answer, um, and then translating the answer. You can actually get to what you think needs to be done very quickly. But actually translating that as to what is done is incredibly Hard. And I think the routes that I have taken have given me a lot of experience in stakeholder management and in navigating some pretty complex environments.

Speaker A: M. Yeah, it's quite a good general skill set to, I guess, you know, quite suitable for what you're doing now, which requires a fair number of different skills. Good. Okay, so listen, I'm primarily interested in the Morehouse journey. And Morehouse is an interesting case because from a. I mean Dom Morehouse's journey is quite famous now in boutique consulting circles. Going from starting, uh, to selling in less than five years, I believe it was, which is very rare, not always recommended. But you. If anyone's met Don Morehouse, they know the drive and passion that would enable that to happen. Um, sold to BT from that. From when. And there was a new leadership team, you said in 2011, you joined in 2012. Yeah. Um, could you, could you give us a little bit of information about just sort of, I guess the high level view of when you joined to becoming sort of managing partner and I guess how, how the company has grown over that period?

Speaker B: I will do my best. I'll do my best. So, yeah, so I, I joined a business very much in transition. So you're absolutely right. And, and the fabled stories of Don Morehouse, um, so obviously sold into bt, uh, and then as ever, you sit in a sort of buyout framework and, and you maintain a leadership team. Uh, but essentially that team is transitioning. And so I joined really as that, ah, the new team had come in, the new exec directors had come in of which there were three, um, and they were sort of starting to lead the business, uh, I think at those points, and I've seen it twice now, um, certainly in Morehouse, but more broadly in consulting. I see this sort of transition period a lot. Um, it's a really, it's a very difficult period to navigate. You've got old, old quote unquote ways of doing things and thinking, uh, and loyalties, um, and the way a business has been set up and it transitions to new leadership who inevitably want to put their mark on it and have different leadership styles and personalities and drive it differently. And so I think that that transition period is naturally turbulent. Um, and was, you know, and was in Morehouse. Um, and so I joined, as I say, towards a year of the team that had been brought in by bt, you know, had been in place bit less there or thereabouts. Um, so I was experiencing that. That was my first real experience. I mean, firstly we did, we had some great work um, uh, and it was a great culture. That's what really attracted me to it. And I say I really enjoyed um, when I met the leaders, uh, I felt it was a very different entity in terms of SME to some of the other um, consultancies I'd been talking to. Um, so that period was a period of consolidation, uh, I would say in terms of a new leadership team coming in and putting their mark on the business and of course the ownership of BT and a large corporate entity, um, which had bought a business sort of fundamentally to drive some internal programs, uh because it was I think the biggest contract at the time in the sale. Um, but then you know, how does a consultancy fit within, you know, a corporate that. That isn't a consultancy, you know, which is essentially, you know, a telco strip media business. And so again I think there's always. There's a natural sort of point of inflection there as to well what. What is the owner going to do? Are they going to try, uh, and look for the synergies and bring the business basically in, um, uh, and entirely morph it. There are so many stories of where that's tried to happen and failed, um, and uh, I think will continue to fail, um, where it's not thought through very, very carefully. Uh, so we set out to build a business, um, the Morehouse business, which obviously didn't have a dependency, um, uh solely on the owner and had a far water. A far wider spread, um, a far wider spread into um, into private, you know, and public, um, public sector clients. And so that's what that period was about. It was, it was about, you know, trying to put a real identity down and different revenues, um, uh, different revenue streams, building more resilience. I think, you know, ultimately to set up an mbo. That's what we were doing. And so that period, which was 2012, I joined in 2012, so I joined as part of that, um into 2015 which was the MBO. Um, and you know, I think the leadership team which I joined, um were pretty set um on that outcome, um, and therefore their thinking and planning was around it. And to be honest, when you've got an entity like Morehouse sat with corporate and really the leadership team are pushing in that direction, that inevitably is what's going to happen because that's how the business is being set up and that's how the leadership and the culture is shaped. Um, so that is what happened. Uh, and we lived, uh, so we bought, um, uh and then lived completely independently as Morehouse Consulting, uh for a period of three, four years. And what happens in that period is it's very liberating. You know, you feel unshackled. Um, you feel that you have complete control of the business. You can take it where you want to, you can make the investment decisions you want to make, you can recruit as you want to recruit, you can structure how you want to structure. Uh, and that's exactly what happened in that period. It was a period of change. It was um, a period where we introduced client directors, junior consultants. It's a period where our client base shifted and the fundamental offer that Saturn has set up with dom, uh which was program delivery again started to shift into what you'd identify as wider business transformation because that world becomes increasingly commoditized. It's interesting what AI will do with it. Um uh but you would imagine even more commoditization. Ah, plus the offshoring aspects and so on and so forth. So that world is getting tighter and tighter to be profitable. Um uh and so part of that period was about how you built out from a fundamental PM offering into a wider transformation offering. And of course in that period we also set up service lines. So we moved away from just a pure sector perspective and selling work directly through client relationships, uh, and industry experience and broad programmatics that push change into a wider business transformation capability. And that was that period. Um and we grew well and then looked to sell um, and sold uh, eventually into uh a German testing business called SQS that were looking for um, uh a footprint in the uk. Um and SQS were bought by Asus Stem, which was a French business. We had a German culture uh then plus a French culture, uh, uh the French A system was bigger. So um, so essentially took over and formed xplio and we, and we now sit within xplio. Um, and again if I reflect in that period what, what happened next? So as when you go through an mbo then clearly again the leadership team is tied in for a period. Again my reflection on that is it's a period where because the buyout um is fixed if you like, the price is fixed at that point generally something's paid up front and then generally you're paid towards the end of the buyout period. Not a lot happens in my experience. And again just talking to others because you're so fixed on the price that, that, that, that you sold for, you don't want to take risk.

Speaker A: That's interesting. Okay.

Speaker B: And so, and so we were, I think looking back we were in a bit of a holding pattern and so you know, when, when the MBO happened and, and we, we moved into, you know, complete private ownership. Um, it was as I said, very liberating and energizing. Then after, then we got to the sale and actually I think it stalled a bit actually. And we held on to the model that had been built to that point. Probably very wise and very sensible in terms of protecting your revenue. Um, but it was a period, if you like, of keeping that structure stable to the other side of the mbo, which was uh, two stroke, three years. And then of course what happened was as we got to the end of that and we got towards, um. I'm trying to think where that must take me through to a timeline, but 2021, 2022, then again we were in a period of transitioning the leadership team because um, the, the very senior leaders, uh, with the most equity had gone and were going, uh, and we were transitioning. So I came into the managing partner role in that time and I've been in the role. This is, I'm into my fourth year in the managing partner role. Um, and so yeah, and so I came into that, that role. Um, and we built a very different and uh, a far bigger partnership team, uh, and senior leadership team. Um, and we went through very rapid growth. So coming into and out of the COVID years we doubled stroke, tripled, touching, tripled in size and went from a sub 100 business in terms of um, people to approaching a 300 people, uh business. And so that very rapid growth was generated through that period from 2021 through to last year, I would say. And last year was a very flat year in consultancy and we experienced that. Um, but I think the three years that preceded that were absolutely incredible in terms of how we changed the leadership team in terms of the number of partners that came in and the different energy and perspective, how the sector and service line model has come together and matured, how uh, the leadership has matured, how it's widened, you know, we've pushed on the diversity sort of cards, um, uh, as well to you know, to create more energy, insight, different personalities, different perspectives. So all of that has gone on as well in uh, the last three or four years. And of course that's gone on under uh, XBO ownership and, and, and, and I can keep talking for a little bit, but I can sort of stop there as well.

Speaker A: Fascinating. Well, listen there, there's a whole load of stuff to dive in there. Um, I'd like to talk briefly about the mbo. Um. What. So for I know a few Firms that are considering an MBO at the moment. Um, and I'd like to, if, if you wouldn't mind, just explain what an MBO is and I guess how it, how it worked for you guys in practice. So I'm not particularly, you know, I don't want to know about the economic side of it in terms of the structure and the culture, how that changes. It'd be good to dive into that a little bit, of course.

Speaker B: So an MBO is a management buyout. Um, and so when a business is put up for sale, so in our case, um, coming into 2014-15, there are, there can be a number of outcomes. Um, so clearly at that point BT owned Morehouse and, and they want, they have an asset, Morehouse, and they want to sell the asset. So it's their decision. If, if you're the leadership team of a business, you, you can look to trigger that decision, uh, through, through various ways, but it can, you know, it's quite a dangerous route, um, because ultimately, you know, you're owned by a huge corporate and, and you want to stay on the right side of the leadership of that corporate, uh, and the board. So, um, so it was actually the BT decision to sell. Um, I think, you know, partly because we, we as a consultancy did not fit and we weren't part of their core entity that they were strategizing about and thinking forward. So we became an asset to sell. So, so, you know, two or three things can happen at that point. Um, a PE house can, can support the, the leadership team, um, in buying, um, the asset, the business. Um, there's a trade sale, a different entity comes along, which could be a consultancy or it could be, uh, any business in industry similar to what BT did, uh, and buy the asset, uh, and buy Morehouse. Now the strongest position, um, in theory is the management team because they know the business, they built the business during that period, uh, and they are key to the continuing leadership and stability of that business. And so the management team have a strong hand at that point. And it then comes to like, how does it play it and how strong is the hand? And so, you know, without diving into all of the detail, um, what happened was the management team, broadly for four people, plus two, if you like, fall with the majority of the shares, uh, and two with lesser, bought the business and were able to do so without PE at that point.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And so it was, there was still loan and debt, ah, but it was set up differently, um, which again, you know, and again there's conversations you can get into Between PE ownership and what that does. The XBO are owned by PE and you know, and I can see how that shapes, um, how that shapes the game. Um, but the great thing about that MBO was it ended up with pretty much entire independence of ownership of the Morehouse consultant. Um, which is a brilliant business. And so that's how that came about. And again, I'm simplifying a lot of complex stress stuff and probably sleepless nights, but that's what happened.

Speaker A: I guess from your perspective or the whole management team, obviously you're betting on yourselves.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Um, when you do this and then you know, p. Like to see that. Of course.

Speaker B: But um, and the sales price is important, isn't it? You know, if it's too big and you've taken on too much debt to fund it, whether that's through banks or through pe, uh, more directly, um, then you know that that plays a part again, as to how attractive that is, uh, and whether the management team ultimately want to get involved in it or not. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I also guess in your specific situation, the, the strategy, the structure you had actually lent itself to expansion because you, you'd kind of, you were doing this very well in BT and all you were really saying was well let, let's do this elsewhere, you know, and, and use the IP and people, we've got to do good work. But you know, actually bring in external revenue.

Speaker B: Exactly that. Uh, and only the management team really know that where you are as a business and therefore the opportunity that exists. Um, and we felt, you know, there was great opportunity in the market for Morehouse Consulting as, as Morehouse was being shaped, you know, and with some of the thinking that was going on.

Speaker A: Okay, okay, so let. Thank you. So let's skip forward. So you develop new service lines, you were external face, you started to bring in, um, uh, some, some new leaders. Um, and you were sold four years later.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Um, to sqs. And, and, and, and again. What, again, again, without avoiding the sort of fight with avoiding the financial details, how did the. So and I think everyone is comfortable with what a sale of. A sale of a company looks like. But how did that differ from what you. The last inflection point around the mbo. How. How did you set up for that? How did you um. What were things different? How were things different by then if

Speaker B: people were in different positions? So you know, you had three partners if you like, um, that had the majority of the equity, uh, had done a great job in, in setting up the business, you know, for sale. And so so my Point being people were in different places. And so, you know, for me personally, coming through that timing, there was clearly a group that were going to stay. Yep. That we're going to go. And then there's, there's that sort of awkward reality of the two to three year buyout, uh, period where people are going and setting up their plans and starting to sort of live, you know, a bit of a different life. You know, they've, they've, they've mentally moved on. And so I think that period is difficult, um, in that.

Speaker A: Sorry to interrupt. I presume you had, or I presume, um, the, the uh, shareholders at least had, um, had earnout, uh, targets associated. Yeah, okay.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly that. Which is three years. Uh, and so, you know, so during that period you are literally working out the transition of the leadership of the business. Um, and as I say, I think the interesting reflection point is how quickly you can do that in terms of identifying the people coming through and uh, the readiness of those people coming through. And because as I say, once the sale, once you've gone through the transaction, you know, very naturally you're focused off. You like generally the payments are split, you're focused on the second, you know, the second payment. And so your mind's in two places. Your mind is in the business that you sold in terms of keeping it, you know, at the same sale point that you sold it for. But your mind is also, okay, what am I going to do next? You know, I've got the money. Um, uh, and that gives you a lot of liberty. You know, what am I, what are the things I'm planning to do? Um, in this example, you know, beyond Morehouse. So, so you live in that, uh, in that period. And I think again it's, it's a really interesting period, you know, for a consultancy SME, um, uh, to go through. Um, and I think overall, looking back on it, you know, and where the business is now, overall it was done in the right way, not without tensions at the time because there's bound to be in uh, terms of the environment I've just described. But I think overall if you look to where the business is now, there was a transition, um, the leadership changed, um, and then we got into another period of growth, very rapid growth, um, which felt very similar to that very initial, um, uh, MBO period when we came out of bt, it felt very similar. And, and so I do think, you know, when you. There is a way, and clearly I would point to us in terms of our experience of transitioning successfully, um, and the Continuing. And the business not only continuing to be stable, but actually thriving in some of. Some of what follows. Because, again, you know, people want to put their own identity on it. People have different personalities. Um, and that there's another sort of phase of liberty almost, you know, beyond that period of stability, waiting for the buyout. Um, and I think that's what happened to us again, you know, with. With good timing around the markets as well. You know, coming into the COVID period and out of the COVID period. Yeah, uh, and yeah, we. We grew very quickly and. And then with so much recruitment, if you like, and so many people coming through, through promotion and into leadership positions, you know, the business changed very quickly. But I do, you know, I believe held on to the values that were core, core to the setup that Don Morehouse, you know, helped put in place all the way back 21 years ago. And those are still the values that we. We work to and aspire to. Role model. And I think set the very culture of the business that I think you would recognize and even Don Morehouse would recognize.

Speaker A: You know, isn't that interesting?

Speaker B: Anyone later walking into the business? And it's interesting I speak to some people who, who have left and then come back for. Either come back and rejoin, um, or come back to visit and they still can put their hand on and recognize the heartbeat and pulse of the business that they were in, um, up to two decades ago.

Speaker A: It is interesting because it's clearly. I mean, the whole cultural bit and values is often seen as a bit airy fairy, but it's actually an asset. The way you talk about it. You know, it distinguishes the firm, it keeps people longer. I mean, you've been there a long time now. Um, and. And it's clearly an, an asset as well as something that is, uh, hard to pin down sometimes.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I, I mean, I felt the very first meeting I had, um, uh, in. In Morehouse, you know, in the interview I had. And again, and I met a couple of the senior leaders, I felt it immediately. Um, and maybe that was part of just being a small business, but I think again, it comes back to the leadership, um, and uh, the qualities you look for in those people and can relate to. Uh, and I felt it then, you know, and, and I still feel it now in terms of the leadership team, um, that's in place currently. And, uh, and again, as I say, how we. How we aspire to role model and behave and lead the business.

Speaker A: That's great because I want to, uh, jump onto a keyword that has come up probably more often than anything else in our conversation. That's leadership. Uh, a lot of the listeners to this podcast are in firms that are around the sort of 30 to 70, 30 to 90 employee mark, and they're on a growth trajectory that perhaps is going to take them to 100 plus. And knowing some of these firms in detail, I know that, uh, some of them are looking at their leadership team and thinking, well, listen, you know, you guys have been focused on delivery, and we promoted you because you're great at delivery, and now you're struggling perhaps a bit with sales. Uh, perhaps you're not used to working in a larger, more professional service firm. Perhaps there's a lack of confidence there as well. So I'm very interested in that. I don't know whether it is an inflection point, but there is certainly a period in a firm's growth, Even ignoring the MBOs and the change of ownership, where the leadership team becomes more professional, uh, more confident, perhaps more capable. And I'm interested in your reflections on that. So I guess, how does it happen? Where, um, do you find these people? Do they come internally? Do you recruit them externally? Um, and how. I mean, clearly Morehouse has done this successfully. So I guess, what are the secrets of success, of evolving your leadership team during growth?

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, there's a couple of things

Speaker A: in there as well.

Speaker B: Again, it's reflection and maybe some learning. And of course, I talk to senior leaders within the SME community, businesses going from 50 through the 300 point up towards 500. Um, and then of course I talk to and work with the big four plus and the very senior leadership of those outfits and, uh, organizations. So, you know, I think for smaller businesses, what one thing, uh, and it's related to this, it doesn't, it's not directly on your point, but I think it's, it's important to sort of, you know, to get your head around this when you're coming through this journey is actually how you operational, how you operationalize the business. So when you're a relatively small business, you do everything and the leadership team do everything. And if you're setting yourself up for a sale, you, you, you don't necessarily invest in actually how you operationalize the business. You know, what a COO might do, the systems, the structures, the policies. And I think as you get bigger, you, you as market, uh, facing leaders, uh, more often, you know, which is where you want to spend the majority of your time, um, you haven't got time for it. And so those things either get Done badly or they pull you back into the business and away from the market, uh, in terms of the internal running of the business. And so I do think I remember talking to a senior leader, um, you know, who's taken a, you know, who's the managing partner of a business that's moved, you know, into the 1000 mark now from M. From 300 or so. Um, and he was telling me, you know, how it was a crucial and key decision to actually bring a COO into, into, into the role and how he had to take it to the board and how the board was split because it's a non market, non market and therefore non fee paying, um, uh, role. So essentially you're paying money out and you're not getting money in. And he said it was critical to the, actually the evolution and growth of the business. And he was the managing partner and had the deciding vote and voted for it. But it was a completely split vote with the board because they just saw it as an outgoing. But I think actually it's crucial. And so setting up your systems, uh, and effectively operationalizing your business I think is a key step in your growth journey. Uh, and it takes an investment and therefore the timing of it is important in terms of if you're looking to set up a sell, then generally you're going to run it pretty lean, uh, and take as much profit out as you can. But if you're really thinking about setting up a resilient business for the market and as a consultancy for a longer period, then you really have got to get into a growth journey and you have to get your operations in place. And I think for me that's key learning. Um, uh, it's key learning in terms of what we've gone through. Uh, and I'm sure every single business that's going on a growth journey goes through. So I think that, and I know, as I say, chairs of consultancies as well that are, uh, grappling with this conversation. So I think, you know, it's key and I stick it on people's radars. You know, think about this and think about when you do it and how you do it. But it is absolutely key to growing your business beyond a certain size.

Speaker A: Okay. Do you, do you have a coo? Well, I guess the question is when did you appoint the CEO at your coo or do you not? Are you the COO in effect?

Speaker B: Well, you know, we're moving around that conversation, but I.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Um, uh, and we are looking right now our internal sort of operating model, you know, for four operations. Um, and we could well end up with a CO at the moment. We've sort of, you know, we've sort of got ahead of head of people and talent ahead of finance and I had a marketing and so on and so forth. Um, um, but I can sort, you know, potentially, you know, there's a route towards consolidation, um, of those roles. Um, uh, and you've got a CEO that then runs the operation of the business and you as the senior leadership team, you know, can, can work on the strategy of the business where you know what the market's doing, how you evolve and change the business around it and of course maintaining your relationships and presence in the market. And I think that's, that's a key point in terms of a growth journey. And you know, we're still, we're still dealing with it and uh, and we'll evolve it some more and we might evolve it again sort of beyond that. But I would say in the last two or three years, you know, in terms of internal investment, we've put a lot towards, you know, those core functions, um, and the leadership of those core functions. So I think, you know, just, just point to know, and it's not, you know, then you sort of get into a how do you build the leadership team? Which is, you know, your question. Um, so I think that needs to be part of it and part of your thinking and then you're sort of into, you know, the continuing sort of, you know, it's the classic, you know, run the business, change the business. So then actually you've got, run the business working quite smoothly and, and you can continue to evolve and change the business. And I think the senior leadership team has to have, you know, has to have the capacity to do that. Um, hence my first point. So, so I think, you know, identifying individuals that are core to the business. So I think firstly putting the structures and policies in place for clear career progression are important so that people know that there's a direction into the future of the leadership of the business and that they are part of that journey. So you've got to do that and you've got to put a sub tier in place in our case, um, below the partnership team, a director team, um, that you start to expose to the core decisions of the business. So you start to have a more inclusive leadership team, um, and build up, uh, the understanding and the resilience and the maturity of your leadership team to different reference points and experiences in running the business, uh, but also in a changing market. So I think you've got your eye on um, you know, people coming through continuously in a sort of 24, 36 month cycle and sort of see people now that is then dependent on growth. And if you're not growing then ultimately you know, you're sort of like, okay, how do you keep doing that? And you know, every business faces that in terms of how they deal with that. Um, but you know, we've gone through a very rapid growth period so we've been able to pull people through and at the very sort of most senior levels, you know, people have moved on to create space or um, uh, we've had the growth to bring people in, you know, into the very senior roles. So I think, you know, a growth trajectory and a growth mindset and a growth strategy is key to incentivizing and engaging everybody in your business. But particularly sort of your different governance levels, uh, of leadership and bringing, bringing, bringing them through. Um, and I think as I say, you have to create or you have to look to create an inclusive environment where people are exposed to the key and uh, crucial and critical decisions of running a business.

Speaker A: I really like the principle of, you know, clearly it's not a voting situation, don't get me wrong. But I do like the principle of involving, even in terms of visibility, the team in the goings on of the business. Because I think one of the challenges, especially as you grow, is where juniors see it as a job where they turn up, they take their money, they go home. And I think emphasizing that actually without growth, it's not a very nice company. Without clients and profitability, you guys don't get paid and perhaps don't have jobs. I think the more you can expose people to the runnings of a uh, professional service firm, um, the easier it is to get those messages across that you talked about earlier around business development, around profitability, around growth.

Speaker B: I'm pretty transparent with our financials in terms of where we are. Um, in terms of that involves revenues, it involves profit levels, it involves what's hot in the market and what's not. Um, and I think we've got better at that actually. Um, uh, and again we've invested in our internal comms. Um, I think it's part of the operationalization of a business. Uh, and again actually having invested in it, I think we're really reaping the rewards of it actually in terms of how we engage with our business and how transparent we are with our information. Making a drumbeat of information that's going into the business.

Speaker A: I'm interested, just a quick one on the people side of things, obviously as part of the operations stuff that you talked about earlier, there's the whole competence framework, the training structures, the roles and all the rest of it. And I get mixed opinions from boutique leaders on the role of hr. Um, some of them can't stand it. I think this might be a size thing. I think once you get to perhaps 120 you actually realize you might need someone specialized in that area, especially if bad things start happening. Um, so what's your take on the sort of HR director role or HR manager role? When, when and if did you start taking that more seriously?

Speaker B: I think if you are a people oriented, so your asset in consulting are your people. You know, it's when you look at IP and what a consultancy really is, you're buying people and you're buying relationships. You can, you can argue, you can argue on the nuances of that and capabilities etc. But ultimately you're buying people, uh, and the relationships people have in the market. And so if you're running a people business then I think the people and talent as we morphed HR into a number of years ago, uh, is absolutely critical because you want your people engaged. And in a business like Morehouse, where we espouse our values and as I say we look to live to them, you need structures in place and policies in place that reward people fairly, acknowledge people, uh, and show respect to people. Um, and I think you have to have those things in place um, to build a business ultimately as I say, because people are your asset. So I think take it seriously, uh, and take it seriously early, um, and look for good people in the market that understand consulting. I think if you can find people like that, and we've had people in our business that really do, uh, it makes a massive difference. So you're not just getting pure HR policy, ah, and functionality in a business, but you're getting people that understand the demands of being a consultant, um, and build if you like, the structures, policies, support frameworks around that. So you know, I think it's critical. It's a people business so you've got to invest in that space.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. I've seen a lot of partners in smaller firms think that they can do the hr, ah, bit as well as the marketing bit and, and, and everything else. And often it, you know, they, they play with it for a while and then realize it actually does need expertise.

Speaker B: Um, I think it comes back to operation, operationalizing the business. Joe, you know, I think when that penny drops and, and for some it may not. And, and, and for some it may not be relevant, but I think when it drops, it's a game changer.

Speaker A: Richard, I have taken up a lot of your time. I could talk about lots of other things you, you AI and, um, and future growth and things like that and what you're doing now, but I, I'm. I'm wary of your time. So I just wanted to say thank you so much for sharing what you shared. Um, I think there's a lot of lessons there for boutique leaders that are hoping to emulate what Morehouse have done. And I wish you all the best for the future.

Speaker B: Been, uh, an absolute pleasure, Joe. And uh, yeah, thank you. Thank you for the invitation to join you and I, I've enjoyed it.

Speaker A: Thank you, Richard. If you'd like to find more out about me and access some free resources to help your consultancy grow, do please visit joeomani.com that's J O E O M A H O N E Y dot com.