48: How Smart Founders Build Repeatable Growth with Jamie Shanks

1 00:00:00,479 - > 00:00:02,560 Joe: Welcome to the Consulting Growth Podcast. 2 00:00:02,720 - > 00:00:06,160 I'm Professor Joe O'Marni, CEO of Equity Sherpa. 3 00:00:06,240 - > 00:00:09,599 We help owners of consultancies quadruple the equity value of 4 00:00:09,599 - > 00:00:11,759 their firms over a two to four year period. 5 00:00:11,919 - > 00:00:15,599 If you'd like to know how we do this, visit equitySherpa.com. 6 00:00:15,919 - > 00:00:18,160 Welcome back to the Consultancy Growth Podcast. 7 00:00:18,480 - > 00:00:20,000 I'm Professor Joe O'Marny. 8 00:00:20,079 - > 00:00:23,120 I have the absolute pleasure this week of being joined by 9 00:00:23,120 - > 00:00:24,160 Jamie Shanks. 10 00:00:24,320 - > 00:00:29,440 And Jamie has had a very interesting and varied life, but 11 00:00:29,440 - > 00:00:32,960 I think there's a huge amount that we can learn from Jamie, 12 00:00:33,039 - > 00:00:35,759 partly on business development and sales, but also partly the 13 00:00:35,759 - > 00:00:37,359 entrepreneur's journey. 14 00:00:38,159 - > 00:00:41,200 Now, Jamie, before we get stuck into the questions, I will only 15 00:00:41,200 - > 00:00:43,119 make a disaster of introducing you. 16 00:00:43,200 - > 00:00:46,640 So do introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about how 17 00:00:46,640 - > 00:00:50,560 you got to CEO and founder of Get Leverage. 18 00:00:51,280 - > 00:00:52,079 SPEAKER_00: Fantastic. 19 00:00:52,240 - > 00:00:56,399 So as mentioned, I'm the CEO of Get Leverage, which essentially 20 00:00:56,399 - > 00:01:00,960 takes on sales and marketing tasks from our small to medium 21 00:01:00,960 - > 00:01:01,439 customers. 22 00:01:01,679 - > 00:01:06,159 We call it doing the$5 an hour tasks so that they can focus on 23 00:01:06,159 - > 00:01:08,239 $500 an hour value creation. 24 00:01:08,560 - > 00:01:11,680 And our global delivery operations center is in Dhaka, 25 00:01:11,920 - > 00:01:12,560 Bangladesh. 26 00:01:12,640 - > 00:01:18,400 We're a team of$115, and we're growing at 10% compounded a 27 00:01:18,400 - > 00:01:18,640 month. 28 00:01:18,719 - > 00:01:20,079 So it's quite a ride. 29 00:01:20,239 - > 00:01:22,079 I've been an entrepreneur my whole life. 30 00:01:22,159 - > 00:01:24,000 So I've owned three agencies. 31 00:01:24,159 - > 00:01:27,519 My first agency was a global sales training company that I 32 00:01:27,519 - > 00:01:30,400 invented and pioneered a sales methodology called social 33 00:01:30,640 - > 00:01:31,200 selling. 34 00:01:31,359 - > 00:01:32,400 That was a hit. 35 00:01:32,719 - > 00:01:36,640 Agency number two was a tech-enabled service that took 36 00:01:36,640 - > 00:01:39,760 the foundations of our learning model and tried to turn it into 37 00:01:39,760 - > 00:01:40,799 a technology. 38 00:01:40,959 - > 00:01:44,480 That was, and I used baseball analogies, although I I 39 00:01:44,480 - > 00:01:47,280 recognize that you're in the UK. 40 00:01:50,400 - > 00:01:52,079 Joe: Some of the terminology, but go on. 41 00:01:55,200 - > 00:01:56,079 SPEAKER_00: It was fantastic. 42 00:01:56,319 - > 00:02:00,640 Second agency was like getting uh a pitch to the face, didn't 43 00:02:00,640 - > 00:02:01,120 work out. 44 00:02:01,280 - > 00:02:05,920 And then agency three, I'm up at the plate right now, and I'm 45 00:02:05,920 - > 00:02:08,719 smelling a home run on my plate. 46 00:02:08,800 - > 00:02:09,840 So that's that's me. 47 00:02:10,080 - > 00:02:13,039 Joe: They do they do say that you know you learn from the 48 00:02:13,039 - > 00:02:15,039 failures, and every time you get a bit better. 49 00:02:15,199 - > 00:02:16,639 SPEAKER_00: Um that is very true. 50 00:02:16,879 - > 00:02:20,000 Joe: Obviously, it would be nice if various politicians left uh 51 00:02:20,319 - > 00:02:25,280 left the global economy alone so that we could uh have a smooth 52 00:02:25,280 - > 00:02:26,319 run there as well. 53 00:02:26,719 - > 00:02:27,599 SPEAKER_00: Exactly. 54 00:02:28,000 - > 00:02:29,680 Joe: Listen, um, okay, so great. 55 00:02:30,080 - > 00:02:35,919 I mean, most founders I come across, um they'll do one, and 56 00:02:35,919 - > 00:02:40,800 whether it's successful or not, uh often they'll just be so 57 00:02:40,800 - > 00:02:45,199 exhausted afterwards that they will they might try a second 58 00:02:45,199 - > 00:02:48,400 one, um, but they certainly pull back from a third. 59 00:02:48,560 - > 00:02:52,479 Now, we had a little chat earlier about um my proclivities 60 00:02:52,479 - > 00:02:55,439 for getting a bit too stressed when there's too much work on, 61 00:02:55,599 - > 00:02:59,599 and uh you said you were almost diametrically uh opposite in in 62 00:02:59,599 - > 00:03:00,400 that respect. 63 00:03:00,560 - > 00:03:06,560 How do you keep the energy motivation uh levels up to keep 64 00:03:06,560 - > 00:03:09,199 going through that entrepreneurial journey three 65 00:03:09,199 - > 00:03:10,879 times, let alone once? 66 00:03:11,280 - > 00:03:14,000 SPEAKER_00: I think everybody's motivated by different things. 67 00:03:14,240 - > 00:03:19,759 Um, and if I had Freud sitting next to me, uh he might say that 68 00:03:20,000 - > 00:03:24,639 um I was as a child, as a kid in school, I was always told I 69 00:03:24,639 - > 00:03:26,080 wasn't good enough, wasn't smart enough. 70 00:03:26,159 - > 00:03:27,280 So that might be part A. 71 00:03:27,360 - > 00:03:27,439 Okay. 72 00:03:27,680 - > 00:03:30,719 So I'm trying to prove something to everybody. 73 00:03:30,879 - > 00:03:33,039 Maybe it's to also prove it to myself. 74 00:03:33,280 - > 00:03:38,479 But be honest, I've always been motivated by fear, and fear is 75 00:03:38,479 - > 00:03:40,479 an engine that never stops. 76 00:03:40,879 - > 00:03:45,520 And so I've had some great successes, some great failures, 77 00:03:46,000 - > 00:03:48,560 but I'm 47 years old now. 78 00:03:48,960 - > 00:03:50,879 I feel like a 27-year-old. 79 00:03:51,039 - > 00:03:53,039 Maybe it's because I keep myself very wow. 80 00:03:53,120 - > 00:03:54,319 Do you have kids? 81 00:03:54,800 - > 00:03:57,759 I have a 13-year-old and 11-year-old. 82 00:03:58,000 - > 00:03:59,039 Bloody hell, man. 83 00:03:59,120 - > 00:03:59,680 Well done. 84 00:03:59,919 - > 00:04:06,000 Yeah, so I really do have the energy of somebody much younger 85 00:04:06,000 - > 00:04:06,319 than me. 86 00:04:06,639 - > 00:04:12,400 Wow, and again, I don't know if it is I am managed by fear, but 87 00:04:12,719 - > 00:04:15,520 the I wake up every day. 88 00:04:15,840 - > 00:04:18,879 Um, and here's the thing about entrepreneurship. 89 00:04:19,120 - > 00:04:22,639 The thing about entrepreneurship is you are climbing a mountain, 90 00:04:22,800 - > 00:04:26,000 and then you will get to the top of the mountain, and you will 91 00:04:26,000 - > 00:04:29,360 realize you're in a mountain range, and that range never 92 00:04:29,360 - > 00:04:29,759 ends. 93 00:04:29,920 - > 00:04:30,160 Yep. 94 00:04:30,319 - > 00:04:34,720 And so it took me a long time to understand that you actually 95 00:04:34,720 - > 00:04:38,639 need to enjoy the climbing of mountain because there actually 96 00:04:38,639 - > 00:04:39,680 is no destination. 97 00:04:39,839 - > 00:04:42,399 You will just go from one mountain to up to the next range 98 00:04:42,480 - > 00:04:43,600 and the next range. 99 00:04:43,759 - > 00:04:47,600 I'm a uh a huge backcountry skier, and there's a type of 100 00:04:47,600 - > 00:04:49,120 skiing called tour skiing. 101 00:04:49,199 - > 00:04:53,839 So you literally skin up to the top and you get to the top, and 102 00:04:53,839 - > 00:04:58,720 you realize there is no top, and it teaches you that you actually 103 00:04:58,720 - > 00:05:03,279 have to enjoy the act of building and the act of the 104 00:05:03,279 - > 00:05:03,839 suck. 105 00:05:04,160 - > 00:05:06,720 If you enjoy that, then you're ready for entrepreneurship. 106 00:05:06,959 - > 00:05:09,920 Joe: That's that's such a good way of putting it. 107 00:05:10,000 - > 00:05:13,439 There's always a big amount in you've got to enjoy the journey. 108 00:05:13,600 - > 00:05:16,800 And I think I think a lot of people, and I potentially put 109 00:05:16,800 - > 00:05:21,680 myself in this category, often say to ourselves, once we get to 110 00:05:21,680 - > 00:05:25,519 X, and that might be a number, it might be um an achievement, 111 00:05:25,680 - > 00:05:28,639 it might be external recognition, then we'll be 112 00:05:28,639 - > 00:05:29,040 happy. 113 00:05:29,199 - > 00:05:32,800 But then you achieve that, and then you go, Oh, I there's still 114 00:05:32,800 - > 00:05:35,680 this thing inside of me that that isn't quite there, so I 115 00:05:35,680 - > 00:05:37,360 need to go on and do something else. 116 00:05:37,600 - > 00:05:42,160 Um this is quite deep for a uh for a Tuesday, Tuesday afternoon 117 00:05:42,160 - > 00:05:44,800 here, but I'm guessing Tuesday morning over there. 118 00:05:45,120 - > 00:05:45,600 Yes. 119 00:05:45,839 - > 00:05:49,199 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the reality is um, again, I've been 120 00:05:49,439 - > 00:05:54,319 wise enough three agencies later to realize that the appetite is 121 00:05:54,319 - > 00:05:58,000 insatiable, and actually you'll never be fulfilled. 122 00:05:58,240 - > 00:06:01,759 I think there is a type of entrepreneur, and I've met many 123 00:06:01,759 - > 00:06:04,480 of them, and I now recognize I'm one of those. 124 00:06:04,639 - > 00:06:08,560 No matter what I accomplish, I will want more. 125 00:06:08,720 - > 00:06:08,959 Sure. 126 00:06:09,279 - > 00:06:15,120 Um, and so I better embrace the act of eating rather than the 127 00:06:15,120 - > 00:06:19,839 act of uh fulfillment because I'll just be a glutton forever. 128 00:06:20,079 - > 00:06:20,720 Joe: Yep. 129 00:06:21,519 - > 00:06:22,959 Good with metaphors, by the way. 130 00:06:23,120 - > 00:06:27,199 I'm I I once worked for um um one of the billionaire in Hong 131 00:06:27,199 - > 00:06:27,360 Kong. 132 00:06:27,439 - > 00:06:30,480 He's one of the top 10 richest people in the world, uh, a guy 133 00:06:30,480 - > 00:06:31,439 called Lee Kashing. 134 00:06:32,079 - > 00:06:36,079 And he was 74 when I was working for him, and he was still going 135 00:06:36,079 - > 00:06:36,879 10 years later. 136 00:06:37,040 - > 00:06:40,399 And I said to him, Are you ever gonna stop to enjoy your money? 137 00:06:40,560 - > 00:06:43,519 And he said, I'm enjoying, I'm enjoying it. 138 00:06:43,680 - > 00:06:47,199 Um, so it's not it's not that you know, in other words, it 139 00:06:47,199 - > 00:06:50,160 wasn't the money he was doing it for, it was the journey, which I 140 00:06:50,319 - > 00:06:51,839 I I took a lot from. 141 00:06:52,079 - > 00:06:55,040 Um, let's talk a little bit about sales for life. 142 00:06:55,199 - > 00:06:58,319 Um, now you trained um over a quarter of a million 143 00:06:58,319 - > 00:07:03,519 professionals, incredibly um successful um clients like 144 00:07:03,519 - > 00:07:05,600 Microsoft and Oracle. 145 00:07:05,839 - > 00:07:11,680 Um what what what was the key to success there? 146 00:07:11,839 - > 00:07:15,439 What was the moment where you really realized you'd built 147 00:07:15,439 - > 00:07:19,120 something that you could you could sell on that had value 148 00:07:19,120 - > 00:07:22,319 outside of you and a few key people? 149 00:07:23,920 - > 00:07:26,720 SPEAKER_00: The world uh was starting at that time to 150 00:07:26,720 - > 00:07:30,800 recognize that social media would be a powerful medium of 151 00:07:30,800 - > 00:07:34,879 communication, but nobody had ever used social media to turn 152 00:07:34,879 - > 00:07:37,920 it into sales processes that could be repeatable for business 153 00:07:37,920 - > 00:07:38,319 development. 154 00:07:38,399 - > 00:07:40,319 And that's what social selling was. 155 00:07:40,879 - > 00:07:47,199 And there was a sales play that I didn't invent anything because 156 00:07:47,199 - > 00:07:51,439 it had been used in the analog world forever, but I just 157 00:07:51,439 - > 00:07:54,800 digitized it and built a workflow around it, called it 158 00:07:54,800 - > 00:07:55,600 the sphere of influence. 159 00:07:55,759 - > 00:07:57,680 And it was a very simple concept. 160 00:07:57,920 - > 00:08:01,040 You take one of your happy, successful customers, you take a 161 00:08:01,040 - > 00:08:04,160 sheet of paper, and you write their name in the center of the 162 00:08:04,160 - > 00:08:04,800 sheet of paper. 163 00:08:04,959 - > 00:08:08,480 So imagine I'm drinking out of a Yeti water bottle right now. 164 00:08:08,639 - > 00:08:12,560 I put Yeti, the logo of Yeti at the center of a sheet of paper, 165 00:08:12,639 - > 00:08:14,000 and I draw a circle around it. 166 00:08:14,079 - > 00:08:16,000 And I ask myself a fundamental question. 167 00:08:16,160 - > 00:08:19,759 If I were to tell that story of Yeti to other people, who would 168 00:08:19,759 - > 00:08:20,639 actually care? 169 00:08:21,360 - > 00:08:25,360 Well, what happens is most sellers, you know, their company 170 00:08:25,360 - > 00:08:29,920 has McDonald's as a customer or might have British Airways or 171 00:08:30,399 - > 00:08:34,000 whatever the company is, and they think that if I just tell 172 00:08:34,000 - > 00:08:36,480 that McDonald's story to everybody, they'll all care. 173 00:08:36,639 - > 00:08:38,000 And that's just not true. 174 00:08:38,320 - > 00:08:41,440 The concept of the sphere of influence is what I would do is 175 00:08:41,440 - > 00:08:45,600 take that story of Yeti and I would reverse engineer one 176 00:08:45,600 - > 00:08:48,080 degree of separation around that story. 177 00:08:48,399 - > 00:08:52,399 A really powerful example of that are what about the past 178 00:08:52,399 - > 00:08:56,320 employees of Yeti that up and leave and they go to other 179 00:08:56,320 - > 00:08:56,960 businesses. 180 00:08:57,120 - > 00:09:01,440 And when they go to other businesses, they think about the 181 00:09:01,440 - > 00:09:03,919 people, the process, and the technology that they used at 182 00:09:03,919 - > 00:09:05,759 Yeti that made them successful. 183 00:09:06,080 - > 00:09:09,360 And so all you're doing is telling that story to those 184 00:09:09,360 - > 00:09:09,519 people. 185 00:09:09,679 - > 00:09:14,080 So you tell the story to past employees of Yeti, vendors and 186 00:09:14,080 - > 00:09:18,639 suppliers to Yeti, competitors to Yeti, because they're the 187 00:09:18,639 - > 00:09:21,679 very first people that would pick up the phone, respond to 188 00:09:21,679 - > 00:09:24,639 your email, respond to your LinkedIn message, and say, Oh, 189 00:09:24,879 - > 00:09:25,759 you work with them? 190 00:09:25,919 - > 00:09:29,120 Yeah, I know exactly what it's like to succeed and fail there, 191 00:09:29,440 - > 00:09:32,879 because we're within one degree of separation of that story. 192 00:09:33,120 - > 00:09:38,159 So basically, I taught customers how to spider web their stories 193 00:09:38,159 - > 00:09:42,559 into take one customer and turn it into five to ten prospects 194 00:09:42,639 - > 00:09:43,759 you want to target. 195 00:09:44,080 - > 00:09:46,480 And it spiraled from there into all kinds of different 196 00:09:46,480 - > 00:09:47,360 workflows. 197 00:09:47,679 - > 00:09:53,519 But it worked almost immediately upon me building this training 198 00:09:53,519 - > 00:09:56,960 methodology, and that's why it scaled very quickly. 199 00:09:57,279 - > 00:10:02,399 And you know, we jumped from the day I started my first customer 200 00:10:02,480 - > 00:10:07,519 was September of 2012 with a little local Toronto-based 201 00:10:07,519 - > 00:10:08,799 market research company. 202 00:10:08,960 - > 00:10:12,240 And one year later, I was building the global curriculum 203 00:10:12,240 - > 00:10:13,679 for Oracle and Microsoft. 204 00:10:13,840 - > 00:10:15,919 Wow, wow, and like a light bulb went off. 205 00:10:16,000 - > 00:10:19,200 Like this is clear, like I've jumped many levels here. 206 00:10:19,360 - > 00:10:19,840 Yeah. 207 00:10:20,159 - > 00:10:21,919 Joe: So listen, okay, right. 208 00:10:22,080 - > 00:10:24,399 So I get I get the good concept. 209 00:10:25,039 - > 00:10:27,600 I've never worked with a firm that scaled that fast. 210 00:10:27,679 - > 00:10:30,720 And I've worked with, you know, multi-billion pound startups. 211 00:10:30,960 - > 00:10:37,679 So twice already, you've mentioned um processes. 212 00:10:38,639 - > 00:10:42,639 So how do you once you realize you've got a product that has 213 00:10:42,639 - > 00:10:46,559 something to it, how do you start to build processes? 214 00:10:46,639 - > 00:10:51,200 And this this I think will be of great interest to many founders 215 00:10:51,200 - > 00:10:54,399 who are listening to this, because they often challenge, 216 00:10:54,480 - > 00:10:56,639 you know, they they'll they'll have themselves and they'll have 217 00:10:56,639 - > 00:10:59,039 some partners, then they'll have some people, and then they'll 218 00:10:59,039 - > 00:11:02,879 get to 30 people, and they say, well, we probably need a CRM. 219 00:11:03,039 - > 00:11:06,879 But you know, in kind of talking, maybe getting to 50, 220 00:11:06,960 - > 00:11:11,039 60, 70 people before they start to think about process 221 00:11:11,120 - > 00:11:13,120 efficiency, scaling, etc. 222 00:11:13,360 - > 00:11:14,879 Sometimes 100 people. 223 00:11:15,840 - > 00:11:17,120 How do you go about that? 224 00:11:17,279 - > 00:11:21,279 What practical steps did you take to systematize what you 225 00:11:21,279 - > 00:11:23,200 were doing so that it was scalable? 226 00:11:23,600 - > 00:11:23,919 SPEAKER_00: Okay. 227 00:11:25,120 - > 00:11:28,879 So I'm a big believer in something I call three Ps. 228 00:11:29,120 - > 00:11:34,639 So, first thing is uh where most people gravitate towards is 229 00:11:34,639 - > 00:11:35,759 platforms or tools. 230 00:11:35,919 - > 00:11:39,360 They think I've got a sales problem, I'm going to buy the 231 00:11:39,360 - > 00:11:42,639 next hot widget or boobob that's going to solve that problem. 232 00:11:42,799 - > 00:11:44,240 It's actually the reverse. 233 00:11:44,639 - > 00:11:48,320 It goes principles, then it goes process, then it goes platforms. 234 00:11:48,480 - > 00:11:53,039 So a principle as an example, a great set of principles is that 235 00:11:53,279 - > 00:11:56,799 from a business development standpoint, you need a 236 00:11:56,799 - > 00:11:58,480 lighthouse and a tugboat. 237 00:11:58,639 - > 00:11:59,600 You need a lighthouse. 238 00:11:59,679 - > 00:12:04,080 That means I need to create and attract people towards me as a 239 00:12:04,080 - > 00:12:04,720 principle. 240 00:12:04,960 - > 00:12:08,399 And at the same time, I'm going to plant the trees of a tugboat. 241 00:12:08,480 - > 00:12:10,080 I'm going to pull people towards me. 242 00:12:10,240 - > 00:12:12,960 That's an outbound business development motion. 243 00:12:14,480 - > 00:12:15,120 Process. 244 00:12:15,440 - > 00:12:20,559 I am going to, as an example, develop one experimental 245 00:12:20,559 - > 00:12:25,519 campaign for my lighthouse and one for my tugboat platform. 246 00:12:25,679 - > 00:12:30,240 I'm for my lighthouse, I'm going to launch a podcast. 247 00:12:30,559 - > 00:12:36,320 And for my tugboat, I'm going to do a campaign on LinkedIn that 248 00:12:36,320 - > 00:12:39,679 invites people to, I'm just making this up, to a break 249 00:12:39,919 - > 00:12:44,799 regional breakfast as I do a tour around the UK from city to 250 00:12:44,799 - > 00:12:45,279 city. 251 00:12:45,440 - > 00:12:49,679 That's connecting the dots between principles, process, 252 00:12:50,000 - > 00:12:50,639 platforms. 253 00:12:50,799 - > 00:12:53,039 So what did we do at Sales for Life? 254 00:12:53,200 - > 00:12:59,600 At Sales for Life, we uh our lighthouse was that we ran a 255 00:12:59,600 - > 00:13:05,279 webinar every two weeks, and we ran a virtual summit every three 256 00:13:05,279 - > 00:13:06,559 to four months. 257 00:13:06,879 - > 00:13:11,840 And so what we were doing is we would build this giant database 258 00:13:11,919 - > 00:13:15,519 and the webinars we called Operation Landgrab. 259 00:13:15,759 - > 00:13:20,639 What we would do was invite famous uh sales training 260 00:13:20,639 - > 00:13:21,360 businesses. 261 00:13:21,600 - > 00:13:25,279 We would invite sales consulting firms, we would invite uh 262 00:13:25,279 - > 00:13:28,240 high-powered chief revenue officers who had great social 263 00:13:28,240 - > 00:13:31,919 networks, and they would be the guests on the panel of our 264 00:13:31,919 - > 00:13:35,360 webinars, and we'd be using their social network, who they 265 00:13:35,360 - > 00:13:40,320 would share our story about the upcoming webinar every two weeks 266 00:13:40,639 - > 00:13:41,840 for years and years. 267 00:13:41,919 - > 00:13:44,799 We built a multi-hundred thousand-person database in the 268 00:13:44,799 - > 00:13:47,840 sales community by using other people's social. 269 00:13:48,320 - > 00:13:52,000 So that was our lighthouse strategy, and our tugboat 270 00:13:52,000 - > 00:13:55,039 strategy was we were using our own methodology. 271 00:13:55,200 - > 00:13:59,200 Every time we won a customer, we literally had our entire office 272 00:13:59,279 - > 00:14:02,480 was white ball, uh whiteboard walled painted. 273 00:14:02,799 - > 00:14:06,639 And we would win a customer, we would draw their name on the on 274 00:14:06,639 - > 00:14:09,759 the whiteboarded walls, draw a circle around it, and spider web 275 00:14:10,080 - > 00:14:13,039 off all the connective companies around them. 276 00:14:13,120 - > 00:14:16,159 And then we would outbound prospect those five to ten 277 00:14:16,320 - > 00:14:16,799 companies. 278 00:14:16,960 - > 00:14:19,840 We would win one of those, circle that one, right? 279 00:14:20,399 - > 00:14:22,559 Draw 10 spiderwebs off of it. 280 00:14:22,799 - > 00:14:29,360 We got to 600 customers, and so it was nothing more than leaning 281 00:14:29,360 - > 00:14:34,399 in on a few campaign bets, but was planting trees between 282 00:14:34,399 - > 00:14:35,759 lighthouses and tugboats. 283 00:14:35,840 - > 00:14:37,759 So that was that's the principle. 284 00:14:38,000 - > 00:14:41,200 The process was we were going to draw out standard operating 285 00:14:41,200 - > 00:14:45,679 procedures and workflows for one of each, and from a platform 286 00:14:45,679 - > 00:14:48,960 standpoint, the platform of the webinar might have been as an 287 00:14:48,960 - > 00:14:53,600 example, like we're using Zoom here, and the platform for 288 00:14:53,600 - > 00:14:55,600 outbound was going to be LinkedIn. 289 00:14:56,559 - > 00:14:59,279 Nothing more stri, nothing more than that. 290 00:14:59,519 - > 00:15:02,879 It's just that I think that the average chief revenue officer 291 00:15:03,039 - > 00:15:07,279 founder who tries to jump into doing more sales, they're like, 292 00:15:07,519 - > 00:15:08,799 We need to improve. 293 00:15:08,960 - > 00:15:11,840 Let's go buy an Zoom info or gone. 294 00:15:12,080 - > 00:15:12,639 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 295 00:15:12,720 - > 00:15:18,080 Yeah, you're buying like a tool to find data, but you don't even 296 00:15:18,080 - > 00:15:19,279 know what the strategy is. 297 00:15:19,679 - > 00:15:21,279 Joe: Yeah, yeah, great. 298 00:15:21,600 - > 00:15:22,000 Great. 299 00:15:22,159 - > 00:15:26,960 There's so much, so much value in in those metaphors and story. 300 00:15:27,120 - > 00:15:28,080 That's fantastic. 301 00:15:28,240 - > 00:15:28,559 Okay. 302 00:15:28,720 - > 00:15:32,480 I want to move on because there's a lot a lot I want to 303 00:15:32,480 - > 00:15:37,519 ask you, but you you wrote the book um Outsourced a Profits. 304 00:15:38,159 - > 00:15:42,240 Um and in it you argue, and this kind of links to what you're 305 00:15:42,240 - > 00:15:44,799 doing now, that founders are paying five to ten times more 306 00:15:44,799 - > 00:15:46,879 parole than necessary. 307 00:15:47,200 - > 00:15:54,159 Um, now the the outsourced model um or the offshore model is one 308 00:15:54,159 - > 00:15:57,759 that a lot of CEOs have been bitten with because they see the 309 00:15:57,759 - > 00:16:00,399 numbers and they think, oh, you know, we can this is something 310 00:16:00,399 - > 00:16:04,320 that we can save some money on, and very often the quality um 311 00:16:04,559 - > 00:16:07,440 isn't there, but the quality clearly is there with what 312 00:16:07,440 - > 00:16:08,320 you're doing. 313 00:16:08,559 - > 00:16:14,159 So, how have you managed to maintain that quality um in in 314 00:16:14,480 - > 00:16:15,600 get leverage? 315 00:16:16,720 - > 00:16:21,200 SPEAKER_00: So I'll talk about it at a principles level uh and 316 00:16:21,200 - > 00:16:23,360 then also an important process level. 317 00:16:23,440 - > 00:16:28,320 From a principal standpoint, we knew that we needed to build a 318 00:16:28,320 - > 00:16:35,120 full agency top to bottom, as if it was sitting on uh you know 319 00:16:35,360 - > 00:16:39,600 Madison Avenue in New York or sitting on Bond Road or whatever 320 00:16:39,600 - > 00:16:40,159 in London. 321 00:16:40,399 - > 00:16:44,480 It had to be a full proper agency that meant a chief 322 00:16:44,480 - > 00:16:48,159 operating officer, head of service delivery, a quality 323 00:16:48,159 - > 00:16:50,960 assurance team, uh, product innovators. 324 00:16:51,200 - > 00:16:54,639 And when we deploy talent to the customer, there would be a 325 00:16:54,639 - > 00:16:58,240 customer success manager who would just be there listening. 326 00:16:58,480 - > 00:17:01,519 Then there was project managers who organized pods of people 327 00:17:01,519 - > 00:17:02,480 that did the work. 328 00:17:02,720 - > 00:17:08,319 And so it was not unfortunately, most founders, as they jumped 329 00:17:08,319 - > 00:17:10,799 into offshoring, they would go on to upwork. 330 00:17:11,039 - > 00:17:12,960 Can you build me a PowerPoint slide? 331 00:17:13,039 - > 00:17:13,599 Joe: Yep, yep. 332 00:17:13,759 - > 00:17:16,480 SPEAKER_00: They would find Johnny, wherever Johnny lives in 333 00:17:16,480 - > 00:17:19,759 the world, who's working from their basement, who has no 334 00:17:19,759 - > 00:17:24,720 attachment to the business and um has no accountability to the 335 00:17:24,720 - > 00:17:26,720 success or failure of the business. 336 00:17:27,039 - > 00:17:30,480 And then would lobin work amongst the other 17 things that 337 00:17:30,480 - > 00:17:30,880 he's doing. 338 00:17:31,039 - > 00:17:32,000 Joe: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 339 00:17:32,240 - > 00:17:37,440 SPEAKER_00: That's that's so we are exactly like every other 340 00:17:37,440 - > 00:17:42,240 North American or UK agency except the delivery operations 341 00:17:42,240 - > 00:17:44,000 centers in Dhaka, Bangladesh. 342 00:17:44,240 - > 00:17:48,319 So now you've got the same rigor of using Monday.com and 343 00:17:48,319 - > 00:17:49,759 workflows and infrastructure. 344 00:17:50,000 - > 00:17:53,519 The other thing that's important from a founder's perspective is 345 00:17:53,519 - > 00:17:56,480 it's truly understanding the economics. 346 00:17:56,640 - > 00:18:00,559 And it only takes the mind of a seller, I sometimes think, to 347 00:18:00,559 - > 00:18:01,200 get this. 348 00:18:02,079 - > 00:18:05,759 Imagine you have a million-dollar business and um 349 00:18:06,079 - > 00:18:10,240 you're employing this team of people to do marketing for 350 00:18:11,200 - > 00:18:17,759 $200,000 as an example, and all of a sudden, uh yeah, and you're 351 00:18:17,839 - > 00:18:20,559 you're you're barely making profit, but you wish you were 352 00:18:20,559 - > 00:18:22,480 making 20% profit. 353 00:18:22,559 - > 00:18:26,880 So 20% profit on a million dollars is also$200,000. 354 00:18:27,680 - > 00:18:33,839 The opportunity cost of that $200,000, 20% profit. 355 00:18:34,160 - > 00:18:38,000 If you were at zero profit and you wanted to get to$200,000 356 00:18:38,400 - > 00:18:43,039 profit, that's actually one million dollars in net new sales 357 00:18:43,599 - > 00:18:44,640 to get there. 358 00:18:44,880 - > 00:18:48,640 And so you ask yourself, the founder, are you willing to go 359 00:18:48,640 - > 00:18:52,240 from your million dollars of revenue to two million dollars 360 00:18:52,240 - > 00:18:54,880 of revenue just to make your two hundred thousand dollars in 361 00:18:54,880 - > 00:18:55,519 profit? 362 00:18:55,920 - > 00:18:59,680 Like, where is that extra doubling of your business going 363 00:18:59,680 - > 00:19:00,160 to come from? 364 00:19:00,240 - > 00:19:04,000 Yeah, and what happens is they don't look at their cost of good 365 00:19:04,240 - > 00:19:07,279 uh cost of customer acquisition and cost of goods sold as like a 366 00:19:07,279 - > 00:19:08,960 headwind and a tailwind. 367 00:19:09,440 - > 00:19:15,839 And when you save, if I could drop your expense from$200,000 368 00:19:16,480 - > 00:19:20,960 to$20,000 and you saved$180,000, yeah. 369 00:19:21,200 - > 00:19:23,759 What you just did is you did two things. 370 00:19:23,920 - > 00:19:27,920 You either prevented yourself from trying to go win eight 371 00:19:28,079 - > 00:19:32,400 hundred thousand dollars more in business, or in the other way to 372 00:19:32,400 - > 00:19:37,359 look at it is you no longer need to plow retained earnings and 373 00:19:37,359 - > 00:19:41,839 profit into trying to get to that insane level of growth. 374 00:19:42,160 - > 00:19:47,359 And the what founders need to realize is that 80% done by 375 00:19:47,359 - > 00:19:50,559 other people is a hundred percent better than done by 376 00:19:50,559 - > 00:19:55,519 themselves, and so as a founder, it's is things going to be 377 00:19:55,519 - > 00:19:56,000 perfect? 378 00:19:56,240 - > 00:20:00,880 Probably not, but the reality is uh what is perfect worth to you? 379 00:20:00,960 - > 00:20:05,440 Joe: Yeah, sacrificing all of your profit or trying to double 380 00:20:05,440 - > 00:20:08,400 your business just to stay afloat, and and no one gets 381 00:20:08,400 - > 00:20:11,359 perfect anyway, no, you know, even if you've got the best 382 00:20:11,359 - > 00:20:13,839 staff, best qualified, you know, department. 383 00:20:13,920 - > 00:20:16,480 And and I guess the other thing is, and I'm not trying to sell 384 00:20:16,480 - > 00:20:21,519 your business, um, but uh but the other thing is is the 385 00:20:21,519 - > 00:20:24,480 opportunity cost of the founders' time having to 386 00:20:24,480 - > 00:20:27,279 coordinate all those bloody upwork and fiver people. 387 00:20:27,440 - > 00:20:32,240 Um and you know, uh often people will they they'll save save 388 00:20:32,240 - > 00:20:35,440 money, they'll find good people, but none of these people are 389 00:20:35,440 - > 00:20:37,839 talking to each other, so they spend all their time running 390 00:20:37,839 - > 00:20:40,799 between them trying to put them together and uh and it all 391 00:20:40,799 - > 00:20:42,079 starts to fall apart. 392 00:20:42,319 - > 00:20:45,359 Um good, okay, okay, thank you. 393 00:20:45,519 - > 00:20:52,799 Um pipeline signals monitors job challenges and human capital uh 394 00:20:52,880 - > 00:20:56,720 to identify sales opportunities, what you call relationship 395 00:20:56,720 - > 00:20:58,400 signal intelligence. 396 00:20:58,720 - > 00:21:02,720 Um now consulting firms and all professional services live and 397 00:21:02,720 - > 00:21:04,079 die by relationship. 398 00:21:04,160 - > 00:21:09,039 So if you're CEO of a I don't know, 100, 200 person 399 00:21:09,359 - > 00:21:16,000 consultancy, how would they use that to defend existing accounts 400 00:21:16,000 - > 00:21:18,480 or generate new business? 401 00:21:19,039 - > 00:21:22,000 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, pipeline signals as a thesis, 402 00:21:22,559 - > 00:21:23,599 unbelievable. 403 00:21:23,680 - > 00:21:25,920 Uh our problem was our own execution. 404 00:21:26,160 - > 00:21:28,319 But here's the concept of it. 405 00:21:28,559 - > 00:21:33,200 We surfaced two intent signals that were really, really 406 00:21:33,519 - > 00:21:35,920 valuable to any organization. 407 00:21:36,799 - > 00:21:39,119 People are the ones that made buying decisions. 408 00:21:39,200 - > 00:21:41,839 So what if you just followed people around the world? 409 00:21:42,079 - > 00:21:43,920 So let's follow a couple people. 410 00:21:44,079 - > 00:21:47,200 Number one, what about, as we talked about the sphere of 411 00:21:47,200 - > 00:21:47,920 influence? 412 00:21:48,240 - > 00:21:50,960 You gave us a list of every customer of yours, and we 413 00:21:50,960 - > 00:21:53,920 reverse engineered everybody that left those customers and 414 00:21:53,920 - > 00:21:55,599 went to other businesses. 415 00:21:56,079 - > 00:21:57,039 Amazing. 416 00:21:57,359 - > 00:21:59,759 That's a great uh high intent lead. 417 00:22:00,160 - > 00:22:02,480 List the first people that would get your story. 418 00:22:02,720 - > 00:22:05,359 But the second is human capital migration. 419 00:22:05,599 - > 00:22:09,599 Imagine you have an account, Yeti is your active, happy 420 00:22:09,599 - > 00:22:10,400 customer. 421 00:22:10,640 - > 00:22:13,680 Now all of a sudden, we're tracking everyone that gets 422 00:22:13,680 - > 00:22:16,880 hired into that company and everyone that leaves that 423 00:22:16,880 - > 00:22:17,359 company. 424 00:22:17,599 - > 00:22:22,240 What happens is many times sales organizations are calling in to 425 00:22:22,240 - > 00:22:25,599 departments where there was a change of leadership. 426 00:22:25,759 - > 00:22:27,440 A key stakeholder left. 427 00:22:27,519 - > 00:22:30,559 Now the priority just walked out the door that you were working 428 00:22:30,559 - > 00:22:30,799 on. 429 00:22:30,960 - > 00:22:33,440 They're going to backfill it with a new leader. 430 00:22:33,599 - > 00:22:36,160 That leader is going to come in with new people, process, and 431 00:22:36,160 - > 00:22:37,039 technology. 432 00:22:37,279 - > 00:22:40,720 So there's both opportunities and risks at the same time. 433 00:22:40,799 - > 00:22:44,160 When we're tracking both sides, new leader comes in, they're 434 00:22:44,160 - > 00:22:45,279 more malleable to change. 435 00:22:45,359 - > 00:22:48,960 And that first 100 days, you can you can plant the seeds of 436 00:22:48,960 - > 00:22:49,440 inception. 437 00:22:49,519 - > 00:22:51,119 Like, hey, what's your game plan? 438 00:22:51,359 - > 00:22:53,759 But what if they came from a competitor? 439 00:22:54,000 - > 00:22:56,960 They're going to come with preconceived notions that you 440 00:22:56,960 - > 00:23:00,640 suck and you're not going to uh you're working together. 441 00:23:00,880 - > 00:23:03,599 The priority you were working on, did it just walk out the 442 00:23:03,599 - > 00:23:03,759 door? 443 00:23:03,839 - > 00:23:06,319 And now all of a sudden, is your account in jeopardy? 444 00:23:06,400 - > 00:23:09,279 Be and this has happened to every seller in the world. 445 00:23:09,440 - > 00:23:12,640 You're working with these people, you forge relationships, 446 00:23:12,799 - > 00:23:14,480 they quit and they leave their job. 447 00:23:14,720 - > 00:23:18,960 Now, all of a sudden, nobody cares about your widget, your 448 00:23:18,960 - > 00:23:21,359 boob, your service, your solution anymore. 449 00:23:21,599 - > 00:23:27,599 So that's what we were tracking is if you follow the people, you 450 00:23:27,599 - > 00:23:30,480 then follow the priorities around. 451 00:23:30,720 - > 00:23:34,720 Um so yeah, it from a concept standpoint worked really well. 452 00:23:34,880 - > 00:23:38,720 There's now with the advent of AI, technology has really caught 453 00:23:38,720 - > 00:23:43,519 up to being able to uh to deliver this intelligence at 454 00:23:43,519 - > 00:23:43,920 scale. 455 00:23:44,400 - > 00:23:44,960 Joe: Yeah, yeah. 456 00:23:45,039 - > 00:23:45,680 Yes, yeah. 457 00:23:45,839 - > 00:23:48,799 If we have time, we'll touch on AI later because I can imagine 458 00:23:48,799 - > 00:23:51,599 it's uh it's it's something you you think a lot about. 459 00:23:51,680 - > 00:23:52,880 Um I'm interested. 460 00:23:52,960 - > 00:23:58,000 Um, so on on your podcast, you talk about founders struggling 461 00:23:58,000 - > 00:24:02,400 to transition to not being responsible for 100% of the 462 00:24:02,400 - > 00:24:03,680 sales, in effect. 463 00:24:03,839 - > 00:24:06,880 Now I'm interested because you're you're you're 464 00:24:06,880 - > 00:24:08,799 charismatic, you talk well. 465 00:24:08,960 - > 00:24:13,279 I can imagine that you you sell very well, and in some ways, 466 00:24:13,359 - > 00:24:18,720 that's a great thing for you, in other ways has it been a 467 00:24:18,720 - > 00:24:18,960 struggle? 468 00:24:20,160 - > 00:24:21,200 Has it been a struggle? 469 00:24:21,440 - > 00:24:24,559 Because you, you know, you've clearly got a team around you, 470 00:24:24,799 - > 00:24:28,160 and they probably, you know, finding people like you who can 471 00:24:28,160 - > 00:24:32,160 sell with that personality, with that ability to talk, being 472 00:24:32,160 - > 00:24:34,319 charismatic isn't easy. 473 00:24:34,559 - > 00:24:39,039 So, how have you personally managed to pull yourself out of 474 00:24:39,039 - > 00:24:41,440 at least some of the sales effort? 475 00:24:41,839 - > 00:24:45,599 SPEAKER_00: It is a learning journey, and then I am almost 476 00:24:45,599 - > 00:24:49,519 exited founder-led sales, and I'll I'll talk through the exact 477 00:24:49,519 - > 00:24:50,880 process of get leverage. 478 00:24:51,039 - > 00:24:54,799 So, get leverage has now grown to a mid-seven-figure agency 479 00:24:54,799 - > 00:24:55,440 very quickly. 480 00:24:55,599 - > 00:25:01,680 And so the time uh is for me to leave founder-led sales. 481 00:25:01,839 - > 00:25:04,160 So, here's the process that I went through. 482 00:25:04,400 - > 00:25:08,240 First thing to do is draw out the entire sales process, and 483 00:25:08,240 - > 00:25:12,799 we've chosen our sales process to be delivered in what's called 484 00:25:12,799 - > 00:25:17,599 a portfolio management uh framework, meaning that when a 485 00:25:17,599 - > 00:25:21,839 new lead comes in, the seller picks up the lead from sales 486 00:25:21,839 - > 00:25:26,400 qualified lead all the way to building consensus, delivers a 487 00:25:26,400 - > 00:25:30,799 proposal, works in contract, wins the deal, continues the 488 00:25:30,799 - > 00:25:34,079 relationship with the customer to customer retention, upsell, 489 00:25:34,240 - > 00:25:37,039 cross-sell, and it's a monthly recurring revenue model. 490 00:25:37,200 - > 00:25:40,640 So now it's for the lifetime value of the customer. 491 00:25:41,279 - > 00:25:45,200 So we don't we don't do the classic SaaS model, which 492 00:25:45,200 - > 00:25:49,599 bifurcates the account executive who wins the deal, then hands 493 00:25:49,599 - > 00:25:51,519 over to a customer success manager. 494 00:25:52,079 - > 00:25:55,359 In professional services, I'm a huge fan that people just want 495 00:25:55,359 - > 00:25:56,799 one relationship through the journey. 496 00:25:57,039 - > 00:26:00,640 So now you've drawn out early days. 497 00:26:00,720 - > 00:26:02,160 We chose that model right away. 498 00:26:02,240 - > 00:26:05,440 So now we have a portfolio model, uh portfolio management 499 00:26:05,440 - > 00:26:05,759 model. 500 00:26:06,000 - > 00:26:08,960 The next thing to do as the founder is to think about what 501 00:26:08,960 - > 00:26:12,799 gives you energy and what you know sucks the energy away from 502 00:26:12,799 - > 00:26:12,960 you. 503 00:26:13,200 - > 00:26:15,839 I've always been a net new sales guy. 504 00:26:16,079 - > 00:26:21,279 And so from that, my skill set is not based on onboarding and 505 00:26:21,279 - > 00:26:21,839 beyond. 506 00:26:22,079 - > 00:26:23,839 I just, that's not me. 507 00:26:24,079 - > 00:26:28,079 So what I needed to do was find talent that could take on from 508 00:26:28,079 - > 00:26:32,960 the moment of signature to the customer lifetime value forever. 509 00:26:33,200 - > 00:26:37,759 And so we started hiring account managers that knew that someday 510 00:26:37,759 - > 00:26:42,079 in the future they would be creeping backwards beyond, you 511 00:26:42,079 - > 00:26:46,079 know, from the the sale all the way earlier to sales qualified 512 00:26:46,079 - > 00:26:49,680 lead, but made it very clear to them you won't be hunters, you 513 00:26:49,680 - > 00:26:51,680 won't be trying to chase net new business. 514 00:26:51,839 - > 00:26:55,839 We'll build a team there, but you're going to be handed leads, 515 00:26:55,920 - > 00:26:59,519 and these are your this is your portfolio forever. 516 00:27:00,079 - > 00:27:05,440 So, step one, bring in account managers to handle the customer. 517 00:27:05,759 - > 00:27:10,400 Step two, develop playbooks to teach them to start chipping 518 00:27:10,400 - > 00:27:10,720 away. 519 00:27:10,880 - > 00:27:14,799 And when you look at sales, even from sales qualified lead to 520 00:27:14,799 - > 00:27:18,079 close one, there are many steps and processes. 521 00:27:18,559 - > 00:27:20,640 You break them down systematically and you say, 522 00:27:20,880 - > 00:27:23,680 okay, there's now 15 different things there. 523 00:27:23,920 - > 00:27:28,960 Let me teach you step two and step six and step nine, and we 524 00:27:28,960 - > 00:27:33,039 start chipping away at them until they can tackle the whole 525 00:27:33,039 - > 00:27:33,440 thing. 526 00:27:33,680 - > 00:27:39,119 And then what we've done is built an SDR team uh to do uh 527 00:27:39,119 - > 00:27:41,279 business development against paid media. 528 00:27:41,519 - > 00:27:45,839 So at that point, and then the last component is to build 529 00:27:45,839 - > 00:27:51,440 playbooks and systems that could track, obviously, using HubSpot, 530 00:27:51,680 - > 00:27:55,920 using AI, track everything that we're doing so that eventually 531 00:27:56,079 - > 00:28:00,880 uh next step, I as the sales leader, step after that, replace 532 00:28:00,880 - > 00:28:02,480 me as the sales leader. 533 00:28:02,880 - > 00:28:03,839 Joe: Yeah, okay. 534 00:28:04,480 - > 00:28:04,799 Okay. 535 00:28:05,119 - > 00:28:09,599 I mean, it it it's something that I come across hell of a lot 536 00:28:09,759 - > 00:28:12,400 is is founders who are still, you know, they might only be 537 00:28:12,400 - > 00:28:16,880 responsible for you know 50%, let's say 40% of revenue. 538 00:28:17,039 - > 00:28:23,119 Um and and getting and the the mistake they often make is 539 00:28:23,119 - > 00:28:27,039 trying to find the person like them who can come in and you 540 00:28:27,039 - > 00:28:28,559 know have the charisma and all the rest of it. 541 00:28:28,640 - > 00:28:30,559 And I always say, well, those people are starting their own 542 00:28:30,559 - > 00:28:31,119 businesses. 543 00:28:31,279 - > 00:28:31,839 Uh yeah. 544 00:28:31,920 - > 00:28:34,160 SPEAKER_00: And and I'm trying to find people that want to 545 00:28:34,160 - > 00:28:35,279 serve the customer. 546 00:28:35,599 - > 00:28:36,079 Joe: Yeah. 547 00:28:36,319 - > 00:28:36,720 Yeah. 548 00:28:37,119 - > 00:28:41,440 And and so, you know, it but it takes time to build that 549 00:28:41,440 - > 00:28:42,160 competence. 550 00:28:42,319 - > 00:28:46,400 So good on you for having those results so quickly because it's 551 00:28:46,400 - > 00:28:47,759 no, it's no mean thing. 552 00:28:47,839 - > 00:28:50,000 Tell us a little bit about your client base. 553 00:28:50,240 - > 00:28:52,160 What size, is it a size thing? 554 00:28:52,319 - > 00:28:53,279 Is it a sector thing? 555 00:28:53,359 - > 00:28:57,599 So do you have a specific size or sector that you focus on? 556 00:28:58,000 - > 00:28:58,799 SPEAKER_00: Great question. 557 00:28:59,039 - > 00:29:03,200 So whenever you build a sales organization, you are either an 558 00:29:03,200 - > 00:29:06,960 account-based model, you're geographically focused, you're 559 00:29:06,960 - > 00:29:10,559 vertical or industry focused, or you're market uh segment 560 00:29:10,640 - > 00:29:11,039 focused. 561 00:29:11,119 - > 00:29:12,799 We're market segment focused. 562 00:29:12,960 - > 00:29:17,519 So we target the founder-led company, companies between one 563 00:29:17,680 - > 00:29:21,039 and 500 employees, both in business to business and 564 00:29:21,039 - > 00:29:22,400 business to consumer. 565 00:29:22,559 - > 00:29:26,240 Uh, most of our customers are in North America, a few are in 566 00:29:26,240 - > 00:29:29,759 Europe, but the commonality, and the average customer has 567 00:29:29,759 - > 00:29:32,400 something like 47, 50 employees. 568 00:29:32,559 - > 00:29:34,319 They are all resource-starved. 569 00:29:34,400 - > 00:29:38,480 They're small to medium businesses that need help 570 00:29:38,480 - > 00:29:40,400 getting out of the day-to-day muck. 571 00:29:40,559 - > 00:29:41,119 Joe: Yep. 572 00:29:41,359 - > 00:29:41,759 Yep. 573 00:29:42,000 - > 00:29:42,319 Okay. 574 00:29:42,799 - > 00:29:43,200 Yep. 575 00:29:43,359 - > 00:29:46,400 And the then the typical challenges will be that, you 576 00:29:46,400 - > 00:29:49,839 know, the founder or the senior team is being pulled into stuff 577 00:29:49,839 - > 00:29:52,799 that they really shouldn't be, that they've got a few people 578 00:29:52,880 - > 00:29:56,799 perhaps on Upwork or Fiverr who do a few good things, but they 579 00:29:56,799 - > 00:30:00,960 don't have coordination and perhaps a strategy and processes 580 00:30:00,960 - > 00:30:01,920 behind them. 581 00:30:02,400 - > 00:30:02,880 SPEAKER_00: Correct. 582 00:30:03,359 - > 00:30:04,160 Joe: Okay, good. 583 00:30:04,319 - > 00:30:04,799 All right. 584 00:30:05,039 - > 00:30:05,359 Okay. 585 00:30:05,519 - > 00:30:07,680 Um, listen, the final question. 586 00:30:07,759 - > 00:30:10,480 Um, you I love your LinkedIn page, by the way. 587 00:30:10,640 - > 00:30:13,359 And by the way, any partners listening to this, I talk a lot 588 00:30:13,359 - > 00:30:14,960 about visible expertise. 589 00:30:15,200 - > 00:30:17,279 Number one, I love your setup. 590 00:30:17,519 - > 00:30:19,599 Number two, I love your LinkedIn page. 591 00:30:19,759 - > 00:30:22,559 So for if there's any partners or directors who are thinking 592 00:30:22,559 - > 00:30:25,200 about how they can make themselves more visible and 593 00:30:25,200 - > 00:30:28,880 professionally, I would number one, look at this on on video, 594 00:30:28,960 - > 00:30:32,160 on YouTube, but also number two, have a look at your your web 595 00:30:32,160 - > 00:30:33,920 page, um, your LinkedIn page. 596 00:30:34,000 - > 00:30:37,119 But on your LinkedIn page, I love the uh the base, the 597 00:30:37,119 - > 00:30:41,920 baseball metaphor, two first base hits, one bunt, three 598 00:30:41,920 - > 00:30:47,119 strikeouts, and at BAT big time with oh bat big time with get 599 00:30:47,279 - > 00:30:48,559 lever get leverage. 600 00:30:48,720 - > 00:30:50,160 Um I'm at that right now. 601 00:30:50,240 - > 00:30:51,279 Yeah, yeah, there we go. 602 00:30:51,359 - > 00:30:51,759 That's great. 603 00:30:51,839 - > 00:30:54,480 So listen, the most people don't talk about it. 604 00:30:54,799 - > 00:30:57,039 I mean, a bunt is a bad thing, is it? 605 00:30:57,440 - > 00:31:00,400 SPEAKER_00: No, well, uh a bunt is a learning experience. 606 00:31:00,720 - > 00:31:02,160 Joe: A learning experience, okay. 607 00:31:02,640 - > 00:31:04,880 SPEAKER_00: You if you've ever if you watch American baseball, 608 00:31:05,200 - > 00:31:09,839 the bunt is the pitch comes in, you hit it only five feet in 609 00:31:09,839 - > 00:31:10,640 front of you, yeah. 610 00:31:10,880 - > 00:31:12,799 You have to run to the bag. 611 00:31:12,960 - > 00:31:16,319 Uh and very few times it's successful. 612 00:31:16,480 - > 00:31:19,519 And right, I I'm either a bunt or a pitch to the face. 613 00:31:19,680 - > 00:31:20,799 It was one of the two. 614 00:31:21,279 - > 00:31:24,480 Joe: Okay, so t tell us about a few learnings from the things 615 00:31:24,480 - > 00:31:25,359 that haven't gone well. 616 00:31:25,519 - > 00:31:27,119 What are the key things, you know? 617 00:31:27,359 - > 00:31:29,759 And it's quite rare that people talk about these because 618 00:31:29,759 - > 00:31:31,519 normally they only talk about the successes. 619 00:31:31,599 - > 00:31:34,960 So I think that's a great, great thing to talk about two or three 620 00:31:34,960 - > 00:31:39,279 things that you have taken from some of the things where you 621 00:31:39,279 - > 00:31:43,359 know you you didn't get to first base, um, but you've learned 622 00:31:43,359 - > 00:31:45,440 things from it and you're using them now. 623 00:31:46,480 - > 00:31:48,799 SPEAKER_00: Most important decisions you'll ever make. 624 00:31:48,960 - > 00:31:52,559 Um, and I'll try and so then I'll talk maybe about three of 625 00:31:52,559 - > 00:31:57,039 them real quick is going to be principle number one is going to 626 00:31:57,039 - > 00:32:00,559 be the economic model of a positive or negative cash flow 627 00:32:00,559 - > 00:32:00,880 cycle. 628 00:32:00,960 - > 00:32:02,960 So how you collect money. 629 00:32:03,200 - > 00:32:06,799 Number two will be choosing a partnerships and equity 630 00:32:06,799 - > 00:32:07,759 distribution. 631 00:32:08,319 - > 00:32:12,480 And uh then number three is trying to be something that 632 00:32:12,480 - > 00:32:13,279 you're not. 633 00:32:13,440 - > 00:32:18,000 Um, I'm an agency guy of a I'm a non-technical founder, and 634 00:32:18,000 - > 00:32:21,599 trying to become a technologist uh wasn't wise. 635 00:32:21,680 - > 00:32:26,000 So, first one um is around choosing your business model. 636 00:32:26,160 - > 00:32:29,359 One of the worst decisions I've ever made in a very successful 637 00:32:29,359 - > 00:32:33,519 business, my first agency sales for life, is we did not build a 638 00:32:33,519 - > 00:32:35,440 recurring revenue model from day one. 639 00:32:35,519 - > 00:32:40,640 We got addicted to huge project-based revenue. 640 00:32:40,880 - > 00:32:45,519 Um, those deals when I started, we were doing$20,000 deals. 641 00:32:45,920 - > 00:32:49,200 Then eventually it crept up to quarter million and half million 642 00:32:49,200 - > 00:32:51,759 dollar deals, but it was project-based revenue. 643 00:32:51,920 - > 00:32:55,519 Less than 25% of our revenue would recur every year. 644 00:32:55,680 - > 00:33:00,000 Another 25% would we call re-okre, which means the 645 00:33:00,000 - > 00:33:04,799 customer would port over you know the IP from one year to the 646 00:33:04,799 - > 00:33:09,039 next, and they would you know renew a license, but it wasn't 647 00:33:09,039 - > 00:33:11,599 recurring, and then 50% was project-based. 648 00:33:11,759 - > 00:33:14,400 What happens is it's called the law of big numbers, and the 649 00:33:14,400 - > 00:33:19,440 bigger you get, the bigger the hole you have to fill when you 650 00:33:19,440 - > 00:33:21,200 have project-based revenue. 651 00:33:21,519 - > 00:33:29,039 So you compound that with um hiring talent and supporting a 652 00:33:29,039 - > 00:33:34,400 huge, you know, a burn rate of maybe$300,000,$500,000 a month. 653 00:33:34,559 - > 00:33:38,400 And if you have a few slow months, you become the bank. 654 00:33:38,559 - > 00:33:42,160 And the worst decision I ever made was allowing customers to 655 00:33:42,160 - > 00:33:46,240 pay what's called DSO, day sales outstanding, accounts 656 00:33:46,240 - > 00:33:50,160 receivables of we started it, it was accounts receivables of 657 00:33:50,160 - > 00:33:51,519 their 30 days. 658 00:33:51,839 - > 00:33:55,839 And then big companies would sign 45 days, 60 days, 90 days. 659 00:33:56,480 - > 00:33:59,279 The bigger you get, you actually become a bank. 660 00:33:59,519 - > 00:34:01,839 And there's a magic law number. 661 00:34:02,160 - > 00:34:06,319 If you aren't collecting accounts receivables in under 29 662 00:34:06,319 - > 00:34:09,760 days, then what you're actually doing is going to the bank, 663 00:34:09,840 - > 00:34:13,280 whether it's out of your own bank account or the actual bank, 664 00:34:13,519 - > 00:34:18,719 borrowing money to pay payroll and your rent and everything for 665 00:34:18,719 - > 00:34:21,840 the end of this month, then you're going to collect money 666 00:34:21,840 - > 00:34:24,960 next month that paid for the services you did the month 667 00:34:24,960 - > 00:34:25,679 before. 668 00:34:26,000 - > 00:34:31,199 And so the bigger you get, your accounts receivables become a 669 00:34:31,199 - > 00:34:32,960 deferred liability, a debt. 670 00:34:33,119 - > 00:34:36,880 And I woke up one day and I was $1.1 million in debt. 671 00:34:37,039 - > 00:34:39,920 Yet I had a successful customer, company. 672 00:34:40,079 - > 00:34:40,239 Yeah. 673 00:34:40,480 - > 00:34:41,760 So we've got leverage. 674 00:34:41,840 - > 00:34:46,400 The principle that I set from day one was we were going to 675 00:34:46,400 - > 00:34:50,400 allow customers to only pay on credit card, and it would have a 676 00:34:50,400 - > 00:34:51,519 positive cash flow cycle. 677 00:34:51,599 - > 00:34:54,239 They had to pay before they got the service. 678 00:34:54,400 - > 00:34:58,480 So we started the company on a $10,000 credit card, and we used 679 00:34:58,480 - > 00:35:01,280 positive cash flow cycles to fuel the growth of the whole 680 00:35:01,280 - > 00:35:01,840 company. 681 00:35:02,079 - > 00:35:06,800 That's the most important decision ever made because uh 682 00:35:07,360 - > 00:35:09,280 now I wasn't the bank. 683 00:35:09,440 - > 00:35:11,599 The customers were fueling the growth. 684 00:35:11,760 - > 00:35:15,199 So, anyways, uh, you know, getting into details, there were 685 00:35:15,199 - > 00:35:18,400 other failures, but that's the biggest one is the economic 686 00:35:18,400 - > 00:35:20,320 model you set up your business around. 687 00:35:20,559 - > 00:35:20,800 Joe: Great. 688 00:35:20,960 - > 00:35:25,280 And I think that's so important these days where product, AI, 689 00:35:25,599 - > 00:35:29,199 um, you know, data, there's so many opportunities for 690 00:35:29,199 - > 00:35:32,960 consultancies to do recurring revenue models and not have to 691 00:35:32,960 - > 00:35:36,320 send, you know, accounts receivable for 45 days. 692 00:35:36,639 - > 00:35:39,119 SPEAKER_00: I would never do project-based revenue again. 693 00:35:39,440 - > 00:35:40,400 Joe: Great lesson there. 694 00:35:40,559 - > 00:35:42,559 Jamie, listen, there's so much here. 695 00:35:42,639 - > 00:35:45,119 I'm gonna go back and listen to this, and I'm certainly gonna 696 00:35:45,119 - > 00:35:48,079 check out your firm because you're actually describing me as 697 00:35:48,079 - > 00:35:49,280 your ideal customer here. 698 00:35:49,440 - > 00:35:51,440 So um uh I I'm gonna check it. 699 00:35:51,519 - > 00:35:52,639 Thanks so much for your time. 700 00:35:52,800 - > 00:35:55,119 Um, and how can people find you? 701 00:35:55,440 - > 00:35:58,800 SPEAKER_00: I go to get leverage, it's spelt G-E-T and 702 00:35:58,800 - > 00:36:02,960 then L-E-V-R-G, it's a play on words.com. 703 00:36:03,119 - > 00:36:06,480 Go to get leverage.com, or you can reach out to me on LinkedIn 704 00:36:06,559 - > 00:36:08,320 and happy to have a conversation. 705 00:36:08,559 - > 00:36:09,760 Joe: Thank you so much, Jamie. 706 00:36:09,840 - > 00:36:10,719 Take care of yourself. 707 00:36:10,880 - > 00:36:11,760 SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot.