CMOs Should Think Bigger - Bruce Hershey

Speaker A: Uh, hey, welcome to the CMO Whisperer Show. I'm your host, Steve Olensky. Part marketing practitioner, part ad agency veteran, part journalist. I was a writer for Forbes for 10 years. I've had so many insightful conversations over the years with business leaders to athletes, to celebrities, to, of course, CMOs. The only difference now is instead of sharing those insights through written form, I'm doing it this way. My guest today is Bruce Hershey, co founder and partner of the CMO Whisper Advisory and someone I've known. Oh my gosh, it's got to be at least 15 years. He's a brother, he's a mentor, he's a friend, he's a confidant, he's everything. He's also one of those rare leaders who has sat in just about every seat that matters. He's a former global CMO of the year, a senior executive operator, entrepreneur and business builder whose career spans more than three decades across major brands, agency startups and founder led companies. Can you see why he's a partner? But what has always stood out to me most about Bruce isn't just the resume. Oh, no. It's the way he sees around corners. He has this incredible ability to connect leadership vision to operational reality, marketing to revenue. Catch that. And strategy to actual. Actual. A big reason the CMO Whisperer Advisory exists the way it does today is because of the conversations Bruce and I have had over the years about what companies, CMOs and leaders are really doing behind closed doors. Not the polished conference room version. Oh, no, no, the real version. Bruce, my brother. Welcome.

Speaker B: Thanks, my brother. Thanks for having me on the show. And I mean, I just got all these tingly feelings while you were talking. I was like, wow, that's me. So, uh, thank you for the nice, awesome intro.

Speaker A: You can't, you can't see this because it's audio only. But Bruce was looking behind him as if I was talking about somebody else when I was.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. Right, all, uh, right, we got.

Speaker A: We got to stay focused because you and I, you know, we'll go down different paths. Okay, so one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation is, is because everybody talks about growth. That's nothing. Everybody talks about brand, everybody talks about transformation, but very few people talk about what actually changes when you move from leading a department to helping lead the entire company. Now you've sat in both seats, CMO and coo, and I think a lot of marketers believe they understand the business because they understand their part of the business. But the enterprise lens is something completely different. So the first question is, what changes, if you will, when the scoreboard changes, if you will.

Speaker B: Yeah, Steve, it's a great question. I mean, you know, look, I really thought. I think it's a spark, this. I really thought I understood business as a cmo, and I did. But I realized becoming a COO is, uh, as I understood business mostly through the lens of marketing. Right. And for me, the CEO has really forced me to really understand, you know, weight and the interconnectedness of the business and, of course, consequences of the entire enterprise. Not m my department anymore. Right. It's the enterprise. And so, uh, to me, that's really what has really opened my eyes up. And saying, what am I. Was I ready for this transition? Absolutely. But am I learning a lot? Has it given me a lot of amazing energy? And of course, I don't need anymore. But my point is, is that it's given me this whole extra level of I want to learn, I want to grow as an individual, but also as a professional. Because once again, it's not about just my department. It's about. I'm building culture, I'm building solutions and processes for the whole entire organization. And it's just. It's amazing. It actually fills my heart.

Speaker A: So to take us back to that transition period.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Do you remember the things that, you know, jumped off kind of quickly, what surprised you as coming?

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I think that I, once again, I thought I really knew it. All, right? And I think the biggest thing is that becoming a coo, you know, now I have a marketing team reporting to me, right. I have an operational and security teams reporting to me. And I wish I would have, you know, when I was a vice president, as an example of marketing, before I came a cmo. I wish I would have known what the CAO and the COO was thinking. Not the C suite as a whole, because they come together united, but they all have their own opinions. And I think if I would have thought or understood them more and really got into their heads, I think I could have been a better partner. That was a bad partner. I just think that I could have moved much faster, maybe more agile. And I think that there could have been a lot more tension too. Right. Who knows?

Speaker A: Yeah. And I assume, you know, there. There were things that you thought air quotes you understood as a CMO that you really only understood from one side.

Speaker B: Right. 100. Look, I had a P&L as a CMO, right? And so, like, it's. It's different because you're looking at, you know, once again, Your department, you're not looking at how am I supporting the overarching company? How am I making sure we all have a, you know, we're all striving for as leaders that focus on ebitda, right. That bottom line. But at the end of the day, like I'm still focused on my apartment, right. And not that I'm not trying to grow the team because as a leader of a C suite member, you have to look at the aspect, but you're still condensed, right? And now I'm just. For me the aha was oh shit. My P and L just grew much bigger. Oh, my team just grew much bigger. It's not about, you know, I have these other departments I have to worry about and you know, coming into a 25 year old company, a cybersecurity company, you know, BSI, that, that has taught me so many things and I like to move fast. And when you run a department, you can move your department as fast as you want. When you're moving a company, you gotta pace yourself because they're not used to that reaction. And I think the analogy I've used in the past is, you know, when you work with a big company, it's like moving three aircraft carriers versus A M small company. You can move that much faster, more agile. I would say the same analogy applies for a department. Right. Versus running a company, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: You said something, one of our conversations, which we have all the time, but you said the difference between a CMO and a COO is the scale of consequence. Unpack that. What does that mean?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean my consequences, uh, when I make decisions today as an operator, right. A uh, COO is not just going to be inward and outward, right. It's going to actually enable decisions I make today impact everybody versus decisions I make as a marketer impact my customers, right? Impact. It can impact the revenue, it can back my team. Right? And so, but it's much different because if I'm, if, look, I remember making decisions as a marketer and we would have fun things, we would go do photo shoots that culturally worked within our team, still within the company, but culturally within our team. But you could never go do that outward because the company has a different level of culture that you have to respect. And so I guess I hope that's answering your question. If I, um, unpack that, is that the consequences for me are much greater, much m. More severe if I make a, uh, bad decision, right? And look, I'm going to make bad decisions, I'm going to make Mistakes. I know they're going to happen. Right, but are they. Are they calculated mistakes? As close as you can make it, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's, uh, not to make this incredibly simplistic, but it's a bigger scale, Much bigger scale.

Speaker B: I don't care how big the company is. Right. At the end of the day, it's still at a much greater scale.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker B: It just amplifies. It's like times 5 or times 10, depending on how many departments and how big the. Org is, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: How would you say being in this new role as a coo, if at all, has it changed your decision making?

Speaker B: Oh, my God. It's really good. It has. I mean, I think I'm much more methodic now about what I'm doing. I'm. I'm actually being a lot more curious than I ever have been. I'm just curious in nature. But I'm asking the questions like that were asked to me, like, bruce, why do you want to spend this money? Like, what's the strategy? And, you know, why does that content matter? Like, I'm the one asking that question now.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Which is fascinating. And I have, you know, I'm like, do we want to spend money? You know, and, uh, that. Now that that question is coming to me versus, hey, Bruce, I need a budget. Whoa, what do you mean? You know, and so, um. But now I can articulate and help my team understand what they need to develop, if that makes sense. Versus a lot of leaders don't drive that or show you that. And you're sort of thrown out in the, in the. To the wolves, if you will. And unless you have been taught and trained those things, it doesn't always come off that easy.

Speaker A: One of the things you said too, uh, in the past, and among many, many things you've said that were really provocative, was you said, a department can survive disconnected from the business for a while, but a company can't.

Speaker B: No, no. I mean, look, I think when we, as marketers, you know, we go through seasons, right. In campaigns, right? And not all as much as we want our campaigns to always win, win, win. We know that we're going to have some challenges and they may always thrive the way we want them to thrive. And I think, you know, and if we have a blip in the marketing or a content and driving volume, growth, sales, all those wonderful things, we can recover, right? We can spin up another campaign. We can, we can alter it, and we can potentially recover the next quarter or the Next month. Right. But you know, when you make these, when you look at, you know, a different level when it comes to CEO, I can't recover that fast. It could be a PR nightmare that I have to really uncover. Right. It could be a customer that, you know, may have got breached as an example, and now we're looking at legal issues. There's just so many different consequences now that it goes back to the word consequences that we have to really. I have to really think of differently and say, wait a minute, like if I really make the decision and this is the forward thinking now, it's what happens, what's the reactions that I'm. That, uh, expected potential reaction. So I'm being a lot more diligent, a lot more thoughtful and not reacting just out of the gate. Yeah, let's go do that. It kind of sounds cool. Right. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Uh, like why? Why? Give me the why and so. And give me the how. Right. And the when and the where and the who and all those things now which you ask those questions as marketers but sit in a different seat. I'm a lot more thoughtful about those answers that come back to me.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's building a department versus building a company. Right. Again, it's simplicity. That's really.

Speaker B: Look, I'm not fighting for my department anymore. I'm fighting for balancing an enterprise, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: It does.

Speaker B: Right? Yeah.

Speaker A: So from your COO lens, what does something like healthy cross functional leadership actually look like?

Speaker B: You know, we hear those buzzwords all the time, right? Cross functional leadership.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. That's why I, I knew it was going to elicit a response.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, look, I. Look, we all need to work cross functionally. And I think that's just a name that's been battered and bruised a couple times. And you know, now it's on people's resumes. Right. And there's titles, Cross functional Leader. Right. And I think that's all fine. And I'm not berating those things, but what I would say is that from, from a COO lens is that if you're not. Look, if there's anything that's taught me so far, being a 25 year old cybersecurity company, is that if I'm not at the intersection of the technology, the operations, the customer trust, the business transformation, if I'm not at the intersection of those things, that's where it all breaks. And that's where sometimes companies don't really pay attention to. And I can tell you this, that, you know, at bsi, I've learned that growth without operational alignment creates a ton of risk. I think that's the biggest thing I've unlocked is that you think you got people, you go around the horn, you have your big company meetings, you have your department meetings, you disseminate down, and you think everybody's got alignment. But I can tell you that I've learned in my career that not everybody gets alignment through those exercises. Right? Number one. Number two, I've also learned that if you want to really, you know, sustain the growth and you want to validate that, to me, it's not about what you know, I think another strong line for me, I guess I'm moving around a little bit. Steven, I'm sorry, but marketing really can create that momentum. That's I guess if you go back to the two where operations is really determining whether a company can sustain it. Right. And so I'm sorry, I bounced around a little bit there. But if I think about what I've learned, that if I don't have that alignment and the risk that can, uh, create. Look, I've been in this role for six months, Steven. What I'll tell you is that I just came off of a company meeting, okay, before this call, okay. And my first mission was to really get the security and the operations team that org departments really dialed in. Right. We were failing. Guess what? Today in our company call, I got to celebrate three people on that team that has never been celebrated in company. Not three people at once. And so I had, when I came in, I was able to rebuild there and re justify why. An internship program for analysts and to bring these young cyber students into a funnel to learn how to do security the correct way. And so we rebuilt it. Two of them that have been in the program for two years graduated, they got their certificates, one's being interviewed right now to go in the FBI, one converted to full time. And we just brought on a, uh, third brand new intern that just graduated from high school that has more certifications in cyber than I've seen people that have been doing it for 20 years. And so it's just really cool to have that, that cultural impact in a department that never had three celebrations at once. It's pretty incredible, right?

Speaker A: Uh, I love that the passion is just coming out. Okay, here, here's a question I've been dying to ask. How did your view of marketing change, if at all, now that you're in this role?

Speaker B: It changed a lot, right? It changed more so than I thought. It was going to be because that goes. Go back to that. I wish I would have been in my CEOs or CO's head before. Right. Because now I understand when they said, really? Or why do you want to do that? Or maybe you should do it this way. I, uh, think it goes back to that conversation we had earlier. Whereas, you know, as a cmo, you know, m. I was really focused heavily on growth. That was the goal. Growth, growth, growth. As a coo, I'm, um, I've realized that growth without that operational alignment is really dangerous. Right. And so that's. I think that's really been my biggest thing is that when the, when our vice president of sales and marketing, which is awesome, she comes in and we start having conversations. I know that all too well, unlike CEOs and COOs. So they were asking questions because they really didn't understand why they were asking them. Maybe a board member asked them, maybe a friend asked them to ask that question, Whatever it is. But what's really interesting is that I can actually help, uh, my VP much greater than any CEO or COO or help me through that lens. Yeah, right. Because I can help them versus, you know, I can expect what he or she, she's going to say, I can expect it. Right. And it's pretty incredible. And now I can sit here and say, whoa, okay, it's all good. We're going to work through this, but this is what we expect. This is how we should be moving forward as we think about our. Your growth, but also how we're going to be able to sustain that growth for the company.

Speaker A: Correct? Correct. So talk to marketers for a second. Where do you see marketers unintentionally creating friction, if you will, for the business without even realizing it?

Speaker B: Yes, great question. And, uh, I'm going to go back to data, because I think data is a part of it, is that they're looking at the data of their department, they're looking at the data of their customers. They're seeing how their campaigns are performing and they're making the right decisions because they're held to budgets, they're held to the activities behind that budgets.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And once again, driving that revenue. So if they're not, uh, uh, what I would say is make sure you understand the full scope of the business. What is the business really trying to do? Right. What is the business really trying to achieve? What is that growth? Now, if the business is really trying to grow to 3, 5, 10% growth, great. But where's that growth coming from? Is it all hinged on marketing and sales. I don't know. Right. And I think that's a better view, is that we all have, uh, as leaders in an organization, we all should have. Not equally, but we should all have parts that are driving those revenue streams. And I think that's the biggest miss to go back to. What you asked me is, you know, what are the. What's the friction they create is that they're blindsided and you're thinking about what you're doing and not what's really going to help overall, the company growth, if you will, and sustained growth. So I think that's where the friction comes in, is the data points are really on this side and not bridging the business data and the marketing data altogether. And to say, are we really on track? Are we driving? Are we working together? Right, Right. It's more of. It's. This is what I'm doing. It's. It's the brand. But the marker should always understand that the brand is owned across the entire company. You're just responsible for making sure the brand grows, the brand stays positive. Right. The brand does what it needs to do. And so I. I think that's the way look at it, if that makes sense. And I would encourage. Just get in with your. Not. You can spend time in the C suite. That's great. But have those intimate conversations with your CEO, with your CEO, with anybody that you can leverage to get a view of what's going to work collectively as an organization.

Speaker A: So you went.

Speaker B: Right. Sounds simple, though. Exactly. It's not, though. It's not. Right. And we say it's. And I'm always a building off. This is because people have said this before. I'm not saying something that different. Right. It's different, but not that different. And I guess that from my view is that it goes back to that fundamental question up top, you know, the shift. And really looking at this in a much cleaner, different way, because if you do and you really start to have those true, intimate conversations, I think you'll start to really peel the onion back and say, I got it, I got it. Okay. And that's what happened to me. The light bulb went off. Especially as I'm sitting in the seat, Steve. I'm like, literally like. I'm like, I've been here before. It's just a different view. Right? It's a different view.

Speaker A: So you. You up. Uh, okay. You went from CMO to COO, as we know. Okay. Do you think the best CMOs will naturally evolve into operators over Time or is it just not for everybody? Some might go from CMO to CEO.

Speaker B: Hey, we've seen that, right? We've seen some of our colleagues, my peers. Our peers, Steve, the. Have leapfrog like that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I, I, look, I think it depends on the individual. I really do. It depends on what their mission, what their purpose and what they want to do. I mean, we both have friends that have been CMOs and marketers for their entire career and they love it and they stay there. Right. For me, it was an opportunity. I, you know, uh, to me, when you're, uh, a, when you're a cmo, you're an operator as well. You're not just a marketer. Right. And I think that is the building block for anybody that wants to transition to the, uh, next layer of the C suite. And I say the natural one is the coo. It could be the CEO, obviously, for sure. And it depends on their technical chops if they can play anywhere else or not. Right. And I've seen crazy things like that. And that all works because good leaders can work in any role as long as they're good. Right? And I think that's the big component unlocked for me was when you're a good leader and you can lead people, you can lead a company, you can lead culture, those things really matter. Right. And so I don't have to be as an example, and I, uh, guess I would say is I don't need to be the expert at being a CEO today because I'm learning. I'm learning, I'm taking the skills that I've learned over the last 30 years and, and I'm bringing that forward. Look, and I've made some mistakes, brother. I have. But you know what? I won't make him again. I won't make him again. And I've had to pivot this transition a few times because, you know, when you're the new guy, um, coming to the organization, what's the big fear? You're going to whack people, Bring his own people in kind of things. I made a very big const decision that was not going to be my, my game plan. I really learned the org. I wanted to understand where the opportunities really laid. And by doing that, I built followers. I listened, right? I, I, I, I just pulled levers and dials because the Nucleus was there. I just brought it a little tighter and cleaner.

Speaker A: So a CMO right now is listening and they have aspirations to become a broader business leader like you are. What should they do? What are first things they should do.

Speaker B: Yeah. First, okay. Uh, find your passion. Okay. Find your passions first. Right? What, what, what gets you going? I think that's the most important thing. And then I would say also become a student again. Learn the business. If you want to stay in the vertical you're in today, learn it, Learn it upside down, inside out. Not from a marketing. Because you already nailed that, right? Not from a marketing lens. You can speak to it. You're an expert. You got it? But learn the other aspects. Learn. Learn the operational side. If there's production, understand that. If there's manufacturing, understand that. Get to know the team, get to know the people. Hear them, talk to them, listen to them. Because when you do that, that's going to say, wow, like, there is an opportunity here. How can I learn? And guess what? As you hear these things and now you, once again, you're a member of the C suite or close to it, you can start driving these things in and making recommendations, and people are going to start noticing that, right? And then when they start noticing that, guess what, you're going to start bringing closer into things. Maybe they'll get, maybe you'll get a special project that's outside of marketing, right? Which would be really cool, right? And so to me, t. Learn, build those relationships. Listen to the organization, not just your C suite, right? Listen to the organization. Start the bottom and work your way up. A, uh, good book that I have been leveraging about every day as I've been on this journey is Good to Great. Good to Great has been an amazing book for me. And it's enabled me, because to not just to look at people. And a big component of that, and in the beginning of that is about right people, uh, in the bus. Then it's the right people in the bus, on the right bus, in the right seats, right? And then, and so I've gone through that journey. It's been great and to the point where we're even creating an amazing new product that's about to go to market. And I got to use the hedgehog concept in there for the first time ever. And it was awesome. Identifying your numerators and denominators and knowing how you're going to bring that product, it's just been phenomenal.

Speaker A: Steve, if anyone who's not familiar with this book, it's A probably, what, 25 years old now, Bruce.

Speaker B: Or at least.

Speaker A: Yeah, right. And it's called Good to Great, and it's by Jim Collins. Look it up. And the, and the very big distinction we need to make here And I will speak for you, Bruce, is do not make the mistake that thinking because it's 25 years old. It does not apply.

Speaker B: It applies because it's a research based book. That's why. So you're going to hear brands on there that don't exist anymore that were in. That were went from good to great. Uh, you know, Circuit City is one of them, by the way. Right. And so, but they did transition from good to great. So. Right. It's all data focused. And I think that's the most important part of this book is, yes, Collins does a good job of narrating and bringing that forward, but his team, when you read the book, really did an incredible job on research. Right. And really identifying what makes the company, um, go good. Good. From good to great. It's a really good Nucleus. So I've enjoyed that and I would say embrace that book. It is good and it is great.

Speaker A: Dang, that was good. But the reason I wanted to bring it up is because I could just see people going, but Bruce. And see that book's 25 years. No, trust me. Trust Bruce Wayne. What you will learn in this book are timeless. Okay, that's. That's when I get that out.

Speaker B: Okay, look, I gave everybody in my org a copy of the book, okay. And I, and I did not make it a book assignment, by the way. I said, if you want to understand where I'm going, how I think, what I'm, um, where, how we were evolving, I encourage you to read this book. Okay. And I gave everybody the old Office Max easy button. Easy button. And because, Because I want to make it easy for everybody. Right. So have a little fun with it. Right. And you know, we're on team calls. I'll hit the button. Right. And just to have fun.

Speaker A: All right, last, last question before we kind of get into the Bruce Hershey personal side of, of life. When you look back now across both seats, CMO and coo, what's the biggest lesson you carry with you about leadership that you simply could not have understood

Speaker B: earlier in your career? Wow, that's a really good question, Steve. That I could not understand earlier in my career from a leadership perspective. Correct? Yeah. So it's not about you. I think that's probably the biggest one is that especially when you're young and you're energetic and you're confident. Right. Uh, uh, it's about me because I want to grow my career and do that. And I think it's. You have to make sure you look at this more holistically and I've probably said that a few times in this, but I would say that it's so true, is that if you do that the right way, it really, really will impact you and your career. If you just don't think about. You think about not saying remove you. I'm saying bring everything forward and look at everything in the picture and have those conversations with your team. Teams win. Vigils, not always win. Okay? And so when you surround yourself by your circles, and you can have circles, right? And death, but they will help you. They will help you grow, they will help the organization grow, build that team mentality, because together, everybody achieves more.

Speaker A: All right, let's have some fun. I probably know the answer to all these questions. My audience doesn't. And it's the random five. Okay. And speaking of young and energetic, I did not orchestrate this. This is the first question that came up. Who is Bruce Hershey at 17 years old? Athlete, music guy troublemaker or quiet observer?

Speaker B: Uh, athlete and troublemaker.

Speaker A: Okay, okay, okay, next question. What's one band or artist you think never got the credit they deserved? Old school or anything?

Speaker B: Man, I tell you what, I'm gonna have to give a plug, though, okay. Because there's a hot new band that's been. I say new. They've been around for a couple years. Artists. And every time I bring his name up, people are like, what? And then they listen to him. They're like, ah, yeah, that's awesome. Nico Moon.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: He's one of my new favorite artists. And it's very positive music. I guess if I had to describe it. Think about Kenny Chesney, Jimmy Buffett, and maybe Bob Marley all mixed together. Something like that. Wow. And it's really cool, impactful. But Nico Moon.

Speaker A: Nico Moon. Okay, I'm going to look that up. Okay, next question. Is there a food from childhood that instantly takes you back the second you smell it?

Speaker B: My mom's homemade lasagna. And by the way, she made it for me last night and is the greatest thing. And it's not the most conventional. Like, Italians would probably snub their nose at it, but it's my mom's. Every time I get, I feel like I'm five and I'm at the table, you know, mount it. So I love it.

Speaker A: I love it. Okay. What's the one possession you own that you would save first in a fire after your family and pets are safe? What are you taking?

Speaker B: Only one thing.

Speaker A: Well, you can get creative. Like, what do you grab after you're. After everybody's out of the house and the pets are sick.

Speaker B: Okay. Everybody's out. Okay. The one possession. Wow. What would that be? It would be my grandfather's US Navy flag that I got when he passed away. That's very special to me.

Speaker A: I can tell. All right, last question.

Speaker B: Not my grandfather, but also my mentor. So, yeah.

Speaker A: Yep. Last question. What's your ultimate leave me alone for two hours comfort activity pool?

Speaker B: It starts with my feet in the pool. First, I'll make sure it's not too cold. Then I actually jump in. But the pool is my. My happy place.

Speaker A: Love it. Well, listen, Bruce, my brother, I love you to death. You know that you're an amazing human. I'm so proud that you're one of my partners. And thank you.

Speaker B: No, thank you. It's been awesome. A pleasure. You know, if you're once again, you're transitioning, do it. Do it because you're passionate. Do because you want to do it.

Speaker A: And you.

Speaker B: And you know you can do it. Peace out.

Speaker A: Well, that wraps up another episode of the CMO Whisperer Show. I hope you shared this episode with your friends. And if you have not already, please subscribe to be kept up to date on all the latest episodes. And if you're so inclined, leave me a review on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you.