Grace Kao (Snap) | The Truth About Gen Z and Why Marketers Keep Getting It Wrong

Before we dive into today's episode, we would very much appreciate a moment from you to make sure you're subscribed to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen, along with optioning to auto download the episodes. It really is the best way to never miss an episode. Along with supporting the show and the amazing team that helps me bring it to you. And while you're there, leave us a rating or review. It only takes a minute and helps more people find the show and helps us learn. And of course share this episode with a friend or colleague who might enjoy it. We wouldn't be here six years later and still going so strong without you all our community. So thank you for being part of it. Now onto the show. What's the first brand grace you remember making an impact on you as a young girl? You know, I don't know if it's because it's the NBA Finals, but I remember when Spike Lee showed up with it's the shoes with Michael Jordan. I remember being kid watch. I'm like, it just blew my mind on the creativity, the black and white, the artisticness. It was so provocative and different. Like that was just moment like oh this advertising thing is amazing. You know, to feel that. And yeah, it was just the two of them, Black and White and Mars Blackman. You know, it's incredible. Hi, I'm Jim Stengel. I've helped hundreds of major brands discover and activate their purpose. Because when a brand's purpose is clear, compelling and authentic, profit naturally follows. One of the things I have learned from years of talking to the best CMOs in the world is this. The question is never just whether your creative is working. The question is whether your infrastructure can keep up with it. Because a brilliant campaign still has to travel through an ad stack, through data, through decisioning, through supply, through measurement. And every hop in that journey is a place where value leaks out. Most platforms solve one piece of that. A data company, a dsp, a measurement vendor. You stitch them together and pay a fragmentation tax in performance, in speed and in accountability. Infilion built something very different. Demand supply, data measurement and creative connected in a single composable platform. The highest performing opt in attention formats via Infilion's proprietary tech in the industry. Agnostic Identity Resolution Solutions and now Catalina1.130 million US households of verified purchase truth running as live signal through every campaign they execute. No black boxes, no hops, no fragmented vendor relationships to manage. The only company I know of that can take you from the first moment of attention to the final proof of action for any vertical on any screen without leaving the platform open. Composable agentic that is infilion week I welcome the CMOs, the chief marketing officers of your favorite brands, to speak to how their job is so much more more than marketing. These leaders share their inspiration and challenges along with how they try to build a full, healthy and happy life in and out of the office. And it's that energy that reaches everyone they touch. And we're glad you're here to feel that energy and to learn from these remarkable leaders. So here we go. Every generation reshapes marketing in its own way, but few have challenged marketers assumptions as much as Gen Z, the generation that is now in high school, college and in early career jobs. This week we're returning to our series exploring how brand leaders are learning which audience is the most important for their future. And for this specific generation, there's no one better to help us understand Gen Z than my guest, Grace Cowell, Chief marketing officer at Snap Inc. Founded in 2011 by Evan Spiegel and Bobby Murphy, Snap began with a simple idea, creating a more authentic visual way for people to Communicate. Now, in 2026, Snapchat reaches more than 940 million monthly active users around the world and and has grown into a nearly $6 billion byte revenue business. My guest Grace joined Snap in December 2024 as Vice President of Consumer and Business marketing. Just a few months later, in April 2025, she was promoted to Chief Marketing Officer. Grace leads the company's global marketing efforts and helps brands, creators and developers build meaningful connections through the Snapchat platform. Before joining Snap, Grace led global business marketing at both Spotify and Instagram, working with businesses and creators. Now tune in for a conversation with a leader who is preparing for the Cannes Lions Festival, which opens next week, and who is leading the way on how brands can build authentic connections with the Gen Z audience. Here's Grace. Well, Grace, welcome to the CMO podcast. We are recording the show about a week before Cannes Lions 2026 and I will be hosting you and a few of the leaders on stage on Monday morning early for quote, CMOs in the spotlight. So I get you twice in 10 days. I'm a lucky guy. Love it. I'm a lucky girl. Thank you so much, Jim. I'm so excited about today's podcast and even more excited I get to see you in Cannes again. So fun in person in Cannes, which is so good. Now, first question. We were chatting before the show started and a memory popped up on My phone. Last night of your Ferris wheel. Oh, yeah, the Snapchat Ferris wheel back in, I don't know, 2017 or 18. Dating ourselves, Jim. Yes. Yeah, I know. I've been going there many years. So I just. My question for you first is how is Snap showing up this year at can? Oh, yeah. I'm super excited for how we're showing about Snapchat this year, I think, because it's a very big year for Snapchat. You know, we are. Obviously there's Snapchat in itself, and there's lots of amazing things that we're doing, whether it's sponsored snaps or what we're working with AI and also promoted places, which is our map. But then also, you might have heard, we are launching some glasses, which is a very, very big moment for. For our company. So I can't wait to unveil that to the world. So that will be your agenda, Ken. Unveiling that to the world. Unveiling that to the world. But at the core, we're also there for Snapchat. So we've got lots of exciting things happening. And, you know, I don't want to give away some. I know. I get it. You know, you've teased us. We will not disappoint. I always pride ourselves over here at Snapchat that we like to zag when others are zigging. And it'll be the same, I think. Well, we'll have that same strategy this year as well. The Ferris wheel was Zag, by the way, way back. I'm glad you still remember. Oh, yeah, it was big and yellow and fun. Oh, there's more yellow coming. More yellow coming. Good. Speaking of your agenda next week at Cannes, what are the highlights for you? I know our agendas are nutty, all of us. That's what's sort of the magic of Cannes. But what are you really looking forward to next week? You know, I would say part of the reason why I love going to Cannes, obviously, it's meeting old friends, meeting new friends. But quite honest, I really love how everyone shows. I'm actually really looking forward to seeing work in general in terms of creative, but I love how the beach has also been a display of amazing creativity. So I'm really looking forward to that, being inspired and also kind of looking at the competition because I do think it makes all of us better. So I'm actually really, really looking forward to that. And then in terms of for. For Snapshot was really big for us this year is we are really centering one of our Core differentiations of. Of chat. Chat in itself as being an amazing channel that I think has been underestimated and underutilized by brands. Like, if you look at how consumer behaviors have been evolving and then you look at like the evolution of AI, what's not going to be a prompt, what's. What's not going to be a chat ui. And so I feel very fortunate that I get to work at a company where at the core we were founded on chat. And so I'll be shouting a lot about how people are not utilizing chat when more in their marketing strategies. Well, you made chat more creative. That was your founding. That was the insight. Right. You made it visual, you made it creative, you made it fun, you made it so that, so that you. I did this with my family. We could come together and share like really weird stuff that we wouldn't put out in the public discourse because they were so quirky and funny and inside jokes. But that's what you enable. Yes, we really wanted to. We. We opened camera. Right. We really felt that to be able to easily express themselves unfiltered, uncurated. And I don't know about you, but I do feel like we're in a point in. In the world today. I think we're craving maybe a bit. A bit of that. Yeah, I agree. There was a. Definitely an era of over curation. I remember I would just like sweat about, okay, what am I going to put on my post or what my caption copy should be? Just as a person and I, I really love that at Snapchat. It's exactly what you said, Jim. I think we really wanted to create a space where people feel like, no, you should just be able to express yourself and you're going to be welcomed in that way. I also think it's been fascinating to see obviously the rise of AI. There is, I feel like the balance of that of people really wanting to feel some realness too. It's the best of both or wanting. Wanting both. Yeah. Well, we'll talk a lot more about AI in a few minutes. But you said something a minute ago that you enjoy going and seeing the work. Can. It kind of changes your standards, elevates your standards, makes you think about, oh man, why didn't we think about that? So talk more about how you create the time for that in Cannes and how you navigate the overwhelmingness of the festival. I know this is hard, but I get up early. Okay. I almost get up early before the beaches, all the different applications start. And I love. I can walk the Streets and not be overly crowded. But I really actually try to get up early and walk and take a look at what's going on and experience things in person. I think that is the beauty. I think that's why the industry still loves Cannes, is that IRL aspect of it. What about you, Jim? I'm curious for you. How do you make the time? I confess I don't think I make enough time anymore for the work just because of the show. We record a lot of episodes at Cannes. I host a two day program, training and development program. We're working hard. I am working hard. So it's a busy week. I mean, back when I was at P and G, I did schedule time to wander around. In fact, a couple years at P and G, I brought my teenage daughter with me. Oh yeah. And I asked her to wander around. I got her a pass. And at the end of the day, before we turned off the light at night, I would say, what did you see today that is interesting? What should I know about that? And she spent her time just looking at work, like all day. So that's a good tip. If you have a partner, a daughter, a son, to send them out. What struck you and have that. And she had good, you know, she had good judgment. Obviously she was a target audience for a lot of our brands, but she had great judgment. I have a 17 year old son. I wonder what his reaction will be of whether you want to go to the south of France. I think that's actually a great idea. I think he might. I think he might. So no, but I think going in with and I counsel people on this, you know, I think my partner, Suzanne Tossellini, who runs the class with me, she goes through the full agenda every year and says, here is what you shouldn't miss. And we share that with the class. And if you miss it for a month with your pass, you can watch it. So we give them probably 20ish things that they shouldn't miss from the week because we scan everything before the week starts. So that's one. And then I think second is go in thinking about what you're wrestling with and make that explicit. And then look for things that will give you inspiration on that. Oh, for sure, for sure. Also another tip is I love what's coming out of emerging markets or international markets. I am always floored to see the things that are coming from places outside of the US to be honest. It's incredible that again, really provocative new thinking, more risks taking. So I also go out of my way to really look at perhaps maybe what may be smaller, but actually has huge, big impact. You'll see a lot of things there that are very offbeat from a different culture. You may not understand it, but that's the point. That's the point. Yeah. Why is it winning an award when I think it's offbeat? Why do I think it's offbeat? Why do we think it's working? Is there a principle behind that that I could learn from? I mean, that's why Ken's so great. Yeah. How do they approach it? Why did they do it this way as well? Yeah. I think the other best thing about Cannes is having conversations like actually talking to people, actually debating the work, or actually commiserating some of the challenges that we're all going through. Yeah, I know. I think it's every single year, it's like, really can. I'm like, I don't know. I always walk away from the week getting a lot out of it, too. Yeah, I think so, too. That's why it is stuck. So listen, this episode that we're recording today is part of our CMO sort of series this year on marketing to different audiences or generations. You, Grace, have got to be, if not the world's expert, one of the world's experts in building a brand with Gen Z people. So I want to begin there, and I was reading a lot about you before and watching a lot of you before the show, and you said Ad Age recently, that you're attracted to creative, youthful companies and your career path definitely affirms that. Right. You're walking the talk. So the first question, why? I think, first of all, perhaps a lot of what we were just talking about before, and now I live with teenagers. And I wonder if you feel this way about kids too. They're an amazing audience segment, that youth segment. You know, again, over the years of the decades that I've been been in the business, this youth audience is fascinating. I love that they. No matter what age. Right. Or. Or decade or generation, there's something about youth where they're incredibly creative. They're. They're incredibly vulnerable. They're. And they're also incredibly willing to try new things. And that moment of discovery, like that pure moment of first discovery, I find incredibly inspirational as a marketer to take those insights as an audience and try to resonate with them. And so whether it's me, you know, I spent a lot, a lot of years working at Twitter on PlayStation, which I think really kind of grounded my roots of like, oh, this is an amazing, amazing Audience to. Even now with Snapchat, it's still the same. It's like when your audience is so creative itself, we have to be just as creative as the audience. And so I think that's always fueled me and I've always been learning. Do you feel like this generation, this Gen Z generation, which is roughly, what, 14 to 29 years old, do you think it's more creative than any generation, at least in our lifetime? I don't know if more. I think we've always been creative. I think we were creative too, when we were that age as well. It's just our tools or how we express ourselves are different. I would say this generation is pressured to be more creative versus maybe Jim, when you and I were growing up, maybe we were more encouraged to follow the line or, or follow, oh, that's what greatness looks like. Versus, I love that this generation, or when I look at my kids being creative is something that they aspire to have more of and to try more things and, and put themselves out more. So I think that maybe is a difference, is that creativity is actually a valuable skill set that I think whether it's parents, like probably ourselves, encouraging, or even schools as well, I feel very fortunate that both my kids are at schools that definitely enforce creativity. That's so good. Now, when did it dawn on you explicitly that you loved working with this audience? Was it at PlayStation when you were at TWA? Is that the kind of the awakening you had? It was. It was just sitting in so many focus groups of this youth audience playing games, or even what I saw where I was fortunate enough to be able to work on a brand like PlayStation and do great work out of it, it just felt like, oh, this is, this is a fun audience to work with. They're also brutal because when they don't like what you do, it's pretty immediate and fast. But yes, I think, you know, I worked on PlayStation for seven years and so, yeah, I think probably even just a whole generation of teens went through. And yes, that was a moment like, oh, yeah, I think maybe intentionally or maybe not intentionally, I just, just continue to work within this segment. If you were a chief marketing officer in consumer products, I want you to think about something for a moment. You have creative that works. You have campaigns that capture attention, but somewhere between that moment and the register, the signal gets lost. You cannot see what actually drove the sale. You are making optimization decisions on inference, not truth. Well, that changed in February. Infilion acquired Catalina. Four decades of deterministic purchase intelligence. 130 million US households, 70 retail banners, $600 billion in verified annual consumer spending. And here is what really matters. Over 90% of consumable purchases still happen in store. Infilion and Catalina together can close the doop from digital advertising to inlane purchase and incentivize the next one. This is not a measurement tool you consult after the campaign. This is a live signal that runs through your media. While the campaign is inflate, you can now optimize from attention to action in real time against people whose actual purchase behavior you know. A consumer products brand needs return on ad spending. It needs foot traffic. Infilion now delivers all of it. Not as separate vendors. You reconcile later as one connected platform. That is what closing the gap looks like. Are you really buying a car online on autotrader right now? Really? I can get super specific with dealer listings and see cars based on my budget. You can really have it delivered or pick it up. Mommy's walking. I think kid is walking up the slide. Really. Autotrader, buy your car online. Really? You worked at obviously you were in the agency business for 17 years before moving client side. And we're going to talk about that in a bit. But I want you to through the lens of building a brand with Gen Z, I mean you worked with three amazing companies. Instagram, Spotify, and now Snap. So I'd like you to reflect a bit with us about a lesson or two from each of those experiences about building a brand with Gen Z. I think for, for me, Instagram and it was a bit about what I talked about before. How do you out creative an incredibly amazing platform where people are making amazing creative things every single day. And so I think my biggest lesson that I learned and which maybe just doesn't seem that obvious now is being native to the platform is key. Like you can't make things in a silo and then just broadcast them out. You, you really need to look at what people are talking about, what they're interested in and then create things that just feel native to the, to that conversation. And I think that was the biggest thing on Instagram. On my biggest move of, you know, having been in ad agencies for a gazillion years of like make it and ship it. And I'll just go over where like Instagram was just a really right turn. I'm like, oh, that is, that is long gone, you know, and, and the speed at which you need to create things have to be so much faster. So those. That was kind of the biggest lesson was like native, be fast, fail Forward faster, quite, quite honestly for Spotify. And I have such, I have such heart for Spotify and even my other company, Pandora. Music is amazing. And for brands to not leverage music as a way to storytell or to move people, you're crazy. Sound on always. And so I think whether it's a lesson from Spotify or just even just you have such a great tool as brands to use music, why aren't you using that? And I think that was really a lesson of Spotify that I always remind myself even today is like sound on what's the sound? And then going for. For Snapchat. I think my biggest lesson or what I'm really interested in is this form of chat, this idea of. And Jim, I think right before we got the call, this concept of the group chat is, is so powerful. Like right now, what I always talk to brands are like, are you in the group chat? Because if you're not in the group chat and being talked about in the group chat, then there's something wrong, then you're ready to kind of behind. And so I'm kind of fascinated when I'm learning it is this concept of conversation, like engagement isn't just clicking. Right. Engagement is like truly two way. And I'm just fascinated again of how we can build certain things or certain experiences where you can have a direct conversation, literally a direct conversation with your customers. So I'm really interested in really showing the power of that channel. And that's kind of a lesson I've been really delving into since I joined in Snapchat. But those, those are some lessons I'm learning and still working through, quite honestly. You have a good career path, Grace. Oh, thanks. I've been very lucky. Very lucky. Yeah. But you know, to reflect on Spotify for a minute. Before this conversation, we were talking to Fabi Torres at Gap, cmo Gap, and I'll be seeing her in Cannes. And she was just talking about music a lot. I mean, Gap was kind of founded on music and they're back to it. They're doing really interesting music. And she talked about creating moments versus reacting to moments. But they get the power of music and the brand is resurgent. Right. And could you imagine the epic piece of work that they just launched if it didn't have Cat's Eye like Truly? You know, that was core to the idea. I could only have worked with the brilliance of Cat's Eye. Oh, such a fan. Such a. Such a fan. Yeah, me too. And the other thing I want to say about Spotify and music I don't know, you were probably there when you did this. This was Cannes a couple years ago. And I thought it was one of the best examples of B2B marketing. Jim. It's one of my favorite. Oh, my God. Proudest moments was. Yes, thank you so much. Tell the audience about that. I think it was unreal. Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you for bringing this up. I could not. I am so proud of that piece of work. I'm so proud of because it was B2B, to be honest, for someone who's been in consumer marketing for a really long time, like, I love B2B. And the insight on that was, why don't you think media planners are creative? Like, we all got in the business of marketing advertising. And I felt like that was sort of the biggest missed insight was that media planners, that B2B audience only thinks, what's the difference? Right brain. Yeah. Really should be appealing to their left brain and talking about channels like, where are they all day? They're in their emails and they're. They are in their spreadsheets. And I don't know, Jim, if you have friends. But I have friends who are spreadsheet magicians. Yeah, I know, I know. It is a skill. Oh, yeah. And it was just tapping into that. And then the third insight is, oh, we're freaking Spotify. If there's not music and what we're sending, then I don't think we're doing our jobs. But what I was, yeah. So proud of was that it was B2B. It was direct mail. And I don't know, Jim, if you know this, each person who received it, there was an actual real rfp. So there was another tab that you can actually activate on. But thank you, Jim, for bringing that up. That was one of the. My proudest things I've done. It was so on brand, so creative, so disruptive. So I thought it was just incredible. Oh, thank you so much, Jim. Thank you. Okay, now let's stay on the Gen Z. Talk a bit about again, your career path is just so rich. Talk about building a culture, an internal culture that thrives on engaging with Gen Z. And what you have learned about that. Yeah, I think probably to remember that this audience is a fun audience. Right. And so for us as a marketing team, and I know it can be a grind. I mean, we're, you know, we're all grinding, but we have to have fun. And I know this sounds, again, obvious or simple, but. But it shows in the work. I really, really believe that. And so it is I think what I try to encourage a culture is a out of office culture of like, get out in the world and experience the world and experience things that Gen Z is experiencing. Like go to concerts, listen to music, you know, make crazy videos yourself. Like you, you have to consume what they enjoy and what they're inspired by, not just be inspired by them. I guess is is a bit. So as much as I'm like, get out in the world, live life. And I don't think it has to be the Gen Z audience, I actually firmly believe that being in marketing or being in advertising, I get most of my inspiration outside of the category. To be honest. Is there a Gen Z audience in a country that you feel like is foretelling where everything is going? When I was back at P and G, I went to South Korea to spend time with Gen Zers because they were just doing so many amazing things and we thought what's happening here is going to spread. So we should go get to see what's happening here, see what inspires us, see what we should do next on our brands that, that were primarily marketed to Gen Z. What is the state of Gen Z today? Are there any countries that you look at say, well, what's happening there is eventually going to happen around the world. There's not one to be honest that pops to my mind where like, oh, this is going to be foretelling for the rest of the world because I do think that we see nuances everywhere. But I would say that what has inspired me just in terms of culturally or things that I feel that I want to create in from, from being a global brand. I am looking at one of more, these smaller markets where just seeing more risk taking in terms of whether it's creators in self, in that kind of community or even what we're seeing in the industry as well. So I think a lot of it is getting out of the US and looking at inspiration from other places and again other channels even outside of the platform, like music. Now we talked about AI briefly a few minutes ago. We're heading to Can. That's going to be everywhere in CAN in every possible way. And you know, I think people are talking about it as an accelerator for growth, for innovation, for engagement and then you know, of course efficiency. But I want to talk about your experience at Snap in taking full advantage of AI's potential. You have a very interesting lens on this. Yeah, but what are you learning as you think about leveraging the full potential? I think everyone's awakened to hey, this can be used for idea generation, for synthetic research. Where do you think the biggest leverage is with AI for your brand and culture? What we've been trying to do on the Snapchat front, besides all the things that you talked about, which is use it for. Whether it's automation, efficiency or for ideation or we've been actually trying to put AI in the hands of our consumers more to see if we can provide an opportunity or experience for creativity or an opportunity or experience for utility. So for example, on Snapchat we have Imagine lens, so we have our kind of iconic caption and you can type in put me in Greece and you know, instantly it creates a snap of me in Greece. So that's like an example of putting AI in the hands and making it a creative experience that you can have with your customer. And then we've also looked at the utility front, which is something we're doing with our business audiences, which is AI sponsored snaps, where. So for example, I'm in my chat, my group chat, Jim, where should we go for. For Greece or, or what are great restaurants where we had a beta with Experian, but could you imagine if there was a brand that you can then in the chat have a immediately a question that you can just ask that branch of, oh, you know, where should I go to Greece? So, so we're looking at, again, trying to put AI, obviously on the, you know, back of house. But again, how could we use AI in a way that facilitates an experience, whether creative or utility, with our customers? What have you learned about, you know, making sure your organization understands this is the new expectation that we all have to learn, we have to learn from each other. So everyone's trying various things. So what's working for you? Well, one, it starts for us at leadership. Definitely from the top is Evan, your founder. Our founder, Evan Spiegel is one of the highest users of AI and has encouraged across whether his direct staff and then of course throughout the org, that we just have to experiment and test and try new things. So I think there's just something one just in the culture of making sure like everyone is like, don't, don't be afraid that you're going to mess up or it's not going to work. Like right now we're all experimenting and I always love. Evan has this term of like, more shots to go. Like we just try more. Yeah. And I think the other thing that's been helpful is actually partnering, like partnering with different companies or, you know, whether it be the creative side or production side or even technology Side, enterprise side. I think learning from others also has been. Been helpful. But I very much feel like we're still, at least for my team, we're still in a learning phase. And if I can encourage this, again, making you feel not afraid to learn and fail, I think, I think that's a lot of what I've been focused on. What about you, Jim? You know, I can't imagine, like, also, it's daunting, right? Yeah, yeah, but it's. It just starts with. I mean, it's Evan's point. Just start using it in everything you do. Yeah, and obviously I do a lot of content creation, research, coaching, presentations. I mean, it's beautiful for all of that. It cuts out time, it gives me new ideas, it provokes me. So I just think you just have to start thinking about it in every work process and workflow and, and kind of work you're doing. And it just starts there. And then it will, it will go and to build time into learning. Right. And then what. What really gets me, like, oh, my goodness, we. We definitely need to embrace and not be afraid is this next generation of youth is going to be AI natives. They won't know a world without AI. So again, like, we. What we got to lose? It's. It's happened. I spent years at Procter and Gamble trying to answer that question. We had the creative, we had the reach, we had campaigns that genuinely stop people. And then we watched that value quietly disappear somewhere between the moment of engagement and the proof of a business result. That gap between attention and action is where most media budgets go to die. And most digital media platforms have been content to live inside it, just a little upstream from accountability. Infilion is the company that decided to close it. They started as the original attention company, built on the idea that a consumer choosing to engage with an ad is worth more than one who ignores it. But they did not stop there. They have built the infrastructure to connect the moment of attention to the proof of action across every screen, every format, every vertical. That is not a feature. That is a fundamentally different idea of what an ad platform should be. And it is the one brands have been waiting for. Learn more in the show Notes. So you also led the transition at Spotify, right? Yeah, because AI sort of was happening as you were at Spotify. And so how's the experience at Snap in terms of moving the culture to a place where everyone's not afraid, that feels it's helpful for them? There's a positive side and it's an enhancer of work. And we'll talk about the other side of that in a minute. But what was the experience at Spotify that was different from Snap? I think for Snap, what I've always loved since I've been at Snap, is its speed, right? It's almost built in. You can see from our ui, whether it's like the stories or snapping, we're founded on the fact, like, things should be fast and easy with the keyword of fast. So I would say, like the culture at Snap, very much, much is about a speed culture, which is iterate create. Iterate create. And it really takes out, I think. You know, again, I thank Evan for this, just this removal of fear of a failing. Like, the failure is actually no movement or no. Or not trying, right? And so again, more shots to goal. It's. It's about the volume of ideas and. And you know, you're going to find gems if you create that amount of volume. So I think that culture is something that I was attracted to. And what I've really loved being at Snap. I again, also, because you have an audience, a youth audience, which is also super fast and learn super fast, it keeps us on our toes again, pushes us to continue to innovate at the speed of our actual audience themselves. I got a call from the Business Insider a couple of weeks ago to do an interview about how AI needs to be rebranded because there's so much negativism and skepticism. Oh, the booing. The booing at graduation. Yeah, all of that. All of that. So. And they ended up doing a story on this. But I just want. You're in the middle of all of this, so what's your view on this? I still think it's about balance, right? There's always been. Whenever there was some invention of new technology, there's always that. That stage of, oh, this is so exciting. And then there's a stage of, like, fear. And then I think then it kind of reconciles and balances themselves a bit. And I think I remember in the film industry, right, when there was all these, like, special effects and, oh, my goodness, we're gonna have, you know, special effects takeover, you know, actors and actresses. And then you look at what wins at the Oscars, right? It's all these, like, super raw, super real stories and films. But don't get me wrong, I love myself a dragon and robots, But I also love those raw, real stories. And I guess where I'm netting out is there's going to be amazing, amazing things that come out of AI but there's also going to be a human need for us to also have raw, unfiltered, real experiences as well. So to me, I think over my years of being in the business, there's always room for both and new technologies create new experiences, but it doesn't leave behind the human need for us to have realness as well. Well, shouldn't we be talking about that more? Don't you feel there's not enough of that in the public discourse? Yes. So true dream. I completely agree with you. Yes. I think there's an overboard of AI without more discussion about how we balance it with more humanness or maybe real storytelling still. Right. It comes. Yeah, I agree. No, I'm with you on that. I just, I, you know, I think companies are probably going to have to lead that and I think some of the big AI companies are starting. Yeah, they're doing some very interesting creative work that's getting out there, but I think it's going to need, as you know, it's going to need consistency and it's going to need the actions to follow the words and all of those things, and reconciling of values as well. The industry itself and also just companies too. Like, what are we validating here? Yep, yep. So let's talk a bit more about your role and your focus at Snap. From what I gathered, you've done a lot of soul searching on the brand. Who you are, where you play, what makes you special, how you're distinctive, how you convey that in the marketplace. So those are always interesting journeys and even starting those journeys sometimes can be controversial. So tell us about that journey you were on, why you undertook it with your team and what you're learning. You know, of course, when I came on to and joined the company, I had again, every aspiration of any person who's new. Right. I'm going to change everything. I'm going to find the new next big thing. And as I dug in and we did research, we talked to our users, we talked to our community, we talked to creators. Yeah, I was like, oh, there's a lot of goodness here. And actually, you know, at the heart of it, we have something that's so special and different, which is again, a realness, this feeling that people can come and feel unfiltered and be themselves, where they find real friends, you know, and, and what I think the biggest unlock was we perhaps, maybe unlike other social media platforms, we're not really an entertainment platform. At the core of Snapchat, we're a utility. There's a camera, we're the most Used camera, there's chat, obviously, we're the second used map in the world. Isn't that insane? And of course we have stories and we have video. But I think that was probably the biggest unlock for me is like, oh, my goodness, we're a utility brand. And so what I felt wasn't wanting to change the brand, but sharpen our brand and really push against the fact that we understand that there are platforms where are more entertainment driven and they have a role in your life, but we also understand the role in your life where you feel like you need to have a safe place where you can be with your friends and feel close to people and you can show yourself in a uncurited, curated way. And so that's kind of the evolution of whether it was real friends to not social media. You know, more Snapchat to Satan is Snap. And that's for me, the sharpening journey we have as a brand. Say it in a Snap is nice. Oh, thanks, Jim. It's a great brand moniker. Oh, our head of product wrote it. You know, that was also a thing. It was like, you know, great ideas don't have to come from marketing. No, absolutely not. Where are you personally focused now, Grace? You're about 18 months in. Where are you spending your personal time at Snap? Oh, you know, personal time, I would have to say, is because we are. We're launching some classes that I'm so excited about. And so that's a. Quite honestly, one of the reasons why I came to Snap is to be part of this, this big launch and this big evolution of a technology that, you know, only comes every, you know, like Hayley's coming every seven years. And so I'm super, super excited about that. And then for. On the Snapchat side, I think for me is we have these amazing new. Whether it's products like AI sponsored Snaps or whether it's the map. And, and I just again, feel like they haven't had their spotlight or their time of day. And. And I really, like, I'm on this chart of like, everyone, chat is, chat is where it's at. How can we not be embracing that more from a marketing standpoint? And so whether it's the B2B side or the creator side or our community consumer side. So I was just really spending a lot of time on, on those two areas for me, which if you can't tell from this conversation, I'm very passionate. Yeah, yeah. Now you followed Colleen De Courcy, right. Who left to go on to Sonus Legend. Yeah, that's right. She does deserve that title. And for those who don't know, she spent. She's famous for her work at Wyndham Kennedy. She's an alumni of TBWHI Day, as you are. She's lion of St. Mark. I mean, she's won every possible award. Oh, yeah. I followed Colleen. I Snap so I could work with Colleen. Yeah. So tell us about that experience. Followed and then she went somewhere else. So just what's that experience been like? Yeah, I think for me, you know, Colleen is someone I followed and fangirled my entire career. And I'm so grateful for Colleen because I wouldn't be in my role now if it wasn't for Colleen. And so when I think about women, leadership, creating opportunity. Yeah, I. I guess gratitude is how. How I feel about Colleen. What do you think is so special about her? Oh, courage, bravery, brilliance. I know it. She's. I would call her like the LeBron James of. Of. She's just. Yeah, legend, I guess, all of those things. But I'm most inspired by Colleen's courage and bravery, for sure. When she was on stage at Cannes accepting that award, that's what she talked about. Yeah. Yeah. This is a tough business, you know. And so, yeah, I continued fan girl. When you were at TBWA Cheydane, I knew a lot of people there, still do, and they had this platform of disruption. Oh, yes. I was there for all that. Yes. And Jean Marie Drew, who was a leader at the company, wrote a couple books on that. Lee Clow believed in it. So could you talk a bit about how that philosophy has affected how you think about brands and business challenges and culture? Oh, yeah. And. And why. Also why I ended up at. At Snap as well, which is also an LA founded company like Shiat. So I was attracted coming to Chiat for obviously also legendary Epic Agency was about being a pirate. I was. I completely gobbled all of that up of just, you know, west coast Louisiana ad agency, surfboards, pirate flags. All of that. All of it. All of it. Like Lee, like unapologetically creative and pushed against the grain. And so that pirate culture was always foundational to what inspires me. And actually right now, Fitz Fair will have think about Snapchat. Snapchat very much is about pirate mentality to the rest of the industry. And then so when Jean Drew started with disruption, I remember it was just funny antidote because at first the word disruption, I don't know if, you know, we just didn't think it would translate so well in the US we're like it sounds kind of negative. So it's just funny to see how that word has become now very common and standard. But I remember at the time when the book was launching, there was a whole discussion of, oh, is disruption the right word? Because that isn't necessarily positive. And to see that Shamari Drew actually changed the meaning of disruption into something positive actually is amazing marketing in itself. But I, I remember the time disruption and the idea of being a pirate was just very much aligned and it was great to crystallize it into to a book and a philosophy and a method. I think that was also. Was amazing about disruption. Was like it was an actual process of getting to disruption that was super simple and easy for, you know, at the time on the agency side to describe it and put clients through the same process to get to that disruption. It's remarkable. There aren't many agencies that have that strong a point of view and that strong a process to take clients through. And so I think it was a very, I think it was a very distinctive point of view. It was an effective process and everyone was trained in it, knew how to do it. So I think it's very, there's a lot of learning. And what happened at that agency at that point in time. Oh yeah. And we packaged it really well. Right. There were disruption days. So it wasn't just a book. You know, there was a disruption day and then as specific, there was a disruption consultancy. Yeah, it was an exciting time, super fun time. Well, you went client side and you've stayed client side. How does that experience 17 years on the agency, how does it make you a better client? Sometimes some people would argue that it may make you a bad client too. Right. And what I will say is I will always value agencies. You know, at a certain point you see a lot of companies and brands build internal capabilities, which is absolutely important. And especially with technology, sometimes you just need to be able to iterate and turn out work faster or have them sit closer to, to product. But I loved being on the agency side to really give fresh perspective, to tell clients the things that they don't want to hear, but that they should hear to push more of that thinking that I think sometimes when in the internal, you're just more siloed off or you're. You're driven by perhaps other things versus I think the agency side will come in with more appetite to say, oh, you need to look what's happening on the outside world more. That reminder, I didn't do that much business with TWA Chiatay at P and G, but the agency still had a very big impact. I got to know Jean Marie Drew because he was very fond of P and G because he worked on P and G early in his career. I got to know Lori Coutts or CMO at the time. Oh, Lori Kutz. Yeah. I mean, Laurie helped me leave pg. Oh, my gosh. Lori Coutts, another legend. I mean, I keep remembering there have been amazing women leaders coming out of tbw. Yeah. Carissa Bianchi, like, they're. Oh, Lori Coots. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I was inducted into the hall of Fame last month and I invited her to come. Congratulations. Lead with that. Why did we. No, no, no. We've talked about that enough, believe me, on this show. But I invited Laurie to my table that night and to sit with my family, and it was so, so good to see her. Oh, my goodness, Lori. I don't know, just. Also, my career just revolutionized how to work with clients. All the war room boards. Like, I remember when we pitched, she was like, everything has to be handwritten. And I was like, and it helps with the thinking. And it was just the those things that are very special. Yeah, yeah. Foreign. Hey, everybody, this is Andrea Sullivan, the CEO of Vive and we produce the CMO podcast and are so excited to have partnered with Jim Stengel for so many years. Wanted to tell you a little bit about something that could be right for you. Vive is a program for entrepreneurs and business leaders who want to get more out of their life and become their best and happiest selves, both personally and professionally. We have a 12 month program that allows people to meet up with some of the best business leaders out there and additionally experts in the wellness sector so that you can learn how to nurture yourself. So we teach things around sleep optimization, meditation, all those good things as well. Please reach out to us@podcastiveive.co to get more information. That's P O D C A S T S at V Y V E Co. Thanks for listening to the CMO podcast and hope to talk to you more about Vibe. Hey, before we jump into the creative brief section to close this out, I think another interesting thing about your career is you've just worked for two amazing founders, right? Daniel Ek at Spotify, who was CEO, I think, when you were there, and he's now chairman. And of course Evan at Snap, who's been there since the beginning, what, 15 years now. So that's a pretty incredible life experience for you. Oh, yeah. So tell us a little bit about how that has shaped you, insights, learning, inspiration you've taken from these two founders. Again, feeling very fortunate to be able to work so closely with founders is huge. And I would say what I feel so inspired by Evan and what I also love is you start the company with Bobby Murphy. I love that they're still together. Yeah, still together. Their desks are still within throwing distance of each other. That attracted me so much to the company that the two founders were still together, still love each other and still so involved in the company. But I think what I get so inspired by Evan and Bobby is Evan and Bobby never forget. It's about the community and the people. Like the, the people, the users people are Snapchatters. And, and I think, I think that's what you have on the. That founder mentality is they understand that the company was built off the people, your. Your fan base. And, and so whenever we're, whether in reviews or planning, like, Evan's always the first one who talks about like, you know, are we putting our snapshot in. In the center of everything we. We do? And I, I think you get that because they know they built it on the backbone community themselves. I love that. How about Daniel E. At Spotify? Similar philosophy. Similar philosophy. I think what I love of Daniel, what he brought in and continue to, you know, also with, you know, Gustav and. And Alex, who were all been there for years, which is always to make it brilliantly simple. And I think that's actually been the success of Spotify was like make it simple and make it magical. And in quite honest, I feel like Lee said that a lot. He did that well. Apple, right? It was certainly Apple's philosophy, which TBWA was very much a part of. And so I think that's what always was good about Spotify's mission or even Daniel was also just remembering, like people just want the music, you know, that they want. Like we need to get out of the way and get that music to them as easily as possible in the most magical and beautiful way possible too. So. Okay, let's move into the creative brief. Grace, you have two teenage children. I do. How do they help you be a better marketer? Oh, we talked about my daughter coming to Cannes with me. But how have these two helped you be a better marketer? Yeah, kind of the more like the. I get so much feedback from. That's good. Can you tell Evan that we need to like on. I was just like, okay, I'll maybe rephrase it for him. Like I said, I feel very fortunate. My kids are at the age where I'm actually targeting them or marketing in that, in that segment. And, and it is to remind like, wow, they, you know, whenever they. There's these cliches about, oh, they're apathetic or oh, they have short attention spans. I'm like, no, they don't. They're actually really thoughtful, super creative. They love to discover, they love to research. And I think that that's been helpful of like, ah, don't believe everything you read. You know, like, engage and yeah, I actually feel so positive and optimistic about the world because I know I have a lot of faith in this next generation of my kids. That's great to hear from you, by the way, who is a mother of this generation and also working with them. I believe it too, by the way. I believe I'm right where you are. How do you stay youthful at heart? You talked about being attracted to these companies. I know you have teenage children, but what do you do? How intentional are you to stay creative, youthful in your thoughts and how you approach life? I. A lot of it is what I've been trying to instill with my team too is, you know, try to like, live life, you know? Yeah, live life. Try new things. I watch a lot of movies and videos. I listen to a lot of music, you know, a lot, A lot of music. Going to lots of concerts. I don't know, just be in it. Yeah, be in it. Or find creativity. I think if you equate youthfulness and creativity together, it's. It kind of goes hand, hand in hand. What do you believe is the most important characteristic for a CMO who would like to build a brand like you have with Gen Z? Oh, I would say to me, it is you. You have to see what they're making and creating and saying. And that's the bar to try to do it somewhere else, like resonate. No, look at them. They're. They're all, they're all creatives. So that's, that's the standard. And so are you creating and making things to their standard? Yeah, to what they were doing. I love that. What's the first brand grace you remember making an impact on you as a young girl? You know, I don't know if it's because it's the NBA finals, but I remember when Spike Lee showed up with it's the shoes with Michael Jordan. I remember being kid watch. I'm like, what? I was like, it just blew my mind on the creativity, the black and white, the artisticness, the. It was so provocative and different. Like, and I just, that was just moment like, oh, this advertising thing is amazing. You know, to feel that and the fact like there was. Yeah, it was just the two of them, Black and White and Mars Blackman. You know, it's incredible. Yeah. And it just came up just all the NBA finals, I was just like Spike Lee. So. And we're in the middle of a great final. What's. What fun. What fun. Okay, Grace, last question. Who's been the most inspiring person in your life? Oh, in general, I would have to say my mom. I still ask my 89 year old mom for career advice or for pick me up or a pep talk. She knows how to, you know, that honesty that only mothers can, can give. And yeah, I still, I still love my mom. Still call her every day. Did she have a career or was she. Yeah, yeah, she was, she was a. She definitely worked though she and my father actually did start their own, you know, small business company that she was the, a leader of. But I think I am more most inspired by her work ethic and her positivity. You know, it's just she would say, tomorrow's another day. You didn't crush it today. Well, that's what tomorrow is for, you know, so. Yeah. Beautiful. It's kind of what Edwin would say too, right? Yeah. More shots on goal. More shots on goal. Tomorrow's another day. Oh, Grace, this is so good. It went to so many good places. Yeah. Jim, thank you so much. Really enjoyed it. Yeah, I've been like I said this, this is the show to be on. I was so, so honored to, to be asked to be on it. Thank you so much for having me. My goodness. Well, thank you. And we had a chance to do it again in Cannes on Monday morning. Happy to see you. Not one on one. We'll be with a few others. But I'm glad we had this time. Definitely, definitely. Thank you again, Jim. Thank you so much. See you in the south of France. See you soon. That was my conversation with Grace Kao. Three takeaways from this wonderful conversation for your business brand in life. The first one regarding building a brand with Gen Z. She simply said, be in their life, enjoy being in their life, understanding be with them. It's a fun audience and they raise the standard for your creativity because they're so creative themselves. But there's no way you can lead an organization to build a brand with Gen Z or frankly any audience without enjoying getting to know them and being in their scene. Second takeaway, the founder lessons. Grace has worked with a couple remarkable founders And I think the lessons from them are very profound. From Evanston, Spiegel and Bobby Murphy. Respect the community. Your brand is only about the community. That certainly is true for Snap, but I think it's probably true for almost every brand. And the idea of from Daniel Eck at Spotify, to keep everything simple, simplify it, you know, understand that you're offering to people, keep it simple. They want the music. Give them the music they want in a simple, fast way. And the importance of speed and experimentation. Just simple, simply great lessons. And the third one, and this one is, you know, we're coming into Cannes week. I think it's a wonderful lesson for can and maybe for life in general, and that is to get up early. When I asked Grace how she navigates Cannes, sees some work, she said, I just get up really early and walk around and see a lot of things and get inspired by them. So pretty good lesson for life. Pretty good lesson for can. That's it. Wonderful conversation with Grace Cowell. That's it for this week's episode of the CMO podcast. As always, I would be grateful if you shared our show with your friends, along with subscribing and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. The CMO podcast is a Vive original production.