Monetisation, AI Innovation, and Building Sustainable Creator Ecosystems with Jon Savage

Speaker A: So I had a chat with John Savage of Africa Podcast Network in South Africa and we talked about why podcasting has to move beyond passion projects into sustainable businesses. What creators need to understand about format, analytics, monetization and brand safety. And why Africa's so called disadvantages may actually be our biggest advantage. Now. While big platforms have largely overlooked the continent and African creators have been forced to innovate, we've embraced video, built independent communities and found creative ways to tell our stories. But there's still one piece missing. Stronger collaboration across borders and an ecosystem that puts more money in creators pockets. This is into the podverse with Tony Do. Podcast innovations, challenges, opportunities and culture from an African perspective.

Speaker B: Hey, I'm John Savage and this is into the podverse with Tony Do.

Speaker A: The Nigerian Podcast Index is the definitive public directory of Nigerian podcasts. Our mission is to make every independent podcast created in Nigeria or by Nigerians discoverable, preservable and celebrated. We're not a ranking or review site. We don't chase charts or hype. What we focus on is helping creators reach new audiences, providing researchers and the industry with reliable data, uh, and supporting the growth of Africa's audio ecosystem. So if you're a listener, creator or researcher, the index is your go to place to explore Marjira's vibrant podcasting landscape and connect with the voices shaping it. If you're a podcaster of Nigerian descent, podcasting in Nigeria, doing it by your lonely Join us. Submit your podcast. Be found, be counted. So John, you entered podcasting long before it became fashionable. What did you see then that many others missed?

Speaker B: So I think it's easy in retrospect to say that, um, I got in before it was fashionable, but it was never, this was not a career path, this was an obsession. I just fell in love with podcasting, totally fell in love with, you know, I was a radio fundi and I was already like into digital radio and investigating radio stations all around the world. And when I found podcasting, I just absolutely was obsessed. And it's interesting now that people say inverted commas. Podcasting expert and got in early. Literally, it's like imagine, um, playing your favorite video game and then years later becoming the world's top video game, uh, tester and people saying, how did you know that this was gonna be the next thing? What did you see that others haven't missed? I didn't, I just loved the medium, loved the storytelling medium, um, and I just found podcasts that really resonated with me and maybe because I liked sort of alternative radio and there Wasn't many of those in South Africa.

Speaker A: You've won many hats. Radio presenter, uh, entrepreneur, creator, educator and ecosystem builder. Which identity has taught you the most about podcasting and why that's really hard?

Speaker B: Um, it's by fluke, not by design. It's all become one thing. Um, I've always been someone who enjoys building businesses around their passion points. You know, I was a musician for many years. You know, I was a radio DJ because I, I fought to get on radio, I loved radio. And, uh, what is podcasting just, you know, an excuse to be a radio dj? Um, but, um, I think the music industry is actually one of the things that has taught me the most about podcasting. What's interesting about our business is that I worked very heavily in the music industry and what I found very frustrating was, um, how major labels and major, you know, the right. I mean, when you are a musician, it's really important to understand mechanical rights, um, royalties, the publishing royalties and all the different royalties. And then once there's a record label involved, what, how that impacts the dynamics and what percentage is that person, and then what percentage does your manager get? And at some point I clashed quite a bit in the music space because I was trying to create these projects, um, that I thought were going to benefit the music industry, but they were politically, uh, tricky because, like, this label doesn't like working with that label. And I was always looking at the artist and fitting things together, not taking into account the politics behind it. And I found it really disappointing. But when I look at podcasting, I feel like it's similar to sort of the music industry of the 90s where everybody wants to kind of remain independent. It's still like a rough and ready space where there's so much space for creativity. It's still highly unregulated. And the thing about podcasting is, again, it isn't yet politically dominated by this faction, that faction, because there's so many kind of siloed podcasters who are bigger than some networks. And that's really cool because it allows us to play in the building of, uh, an ecosystem and work with creators and work with the tech distributing companies and to work with the marketing companies on like, how do we build this thing and make it really creator centric. And for me, that's really the passion that drives my whole business. Everything we've ever done from AMPT Studios, which is the largest empowerment hub in Africa that We've owned for seven years and have like nearly 20,000 creators running through there, uh, regularly, uh, from Africa Podcast Network, which is really focused on driving revenue to creators. Everything we've done, everything in my career has been focused on driving revenue to creators. And uh, podcasting is the sort of ultimate new creator ecosystem where everything that I've ever done has kind of led to this part. It's very exciting.

Speaker A: Podcasting in Africa often feels like a tale of two markets. Nigeria is rich in cultural influence and audience growth, while South Africa has invested heavily in infrastructure and commercialization. How do you see these ecosystems complementing each other rather than competing?

Speaker B: They don't compete. Um, you know, Africa is 54 countries, hundreds of languages, maybe thousands of languages. And you know, you can't compare it to say the US market which is 54 states because everybody speaks the same language, everyone's using the same currency. This is like different presidents, different league, uh, um, tax regulations, different cross border, uh, regulations, different requirements. It's, it really is a complicated system and one of the sort of issues in inverted commas in Africa is it's quite siloed. A lot of, there's not a lot of collaboration. Um, a lot of the countries operate kind of in their own world. But from, you know, APN and the business we're doing is very much, uh, the work that we're deeply invested in is connecting Africa so that you know, we're speaking to a lot of global businesses, we're working with global businesses and it's very hard for a global business. Uh, Very often big businesses, established businesses that walk into massive markets and dominate them, don't manage to dominate in Africa because it's, it's so different to anywhere else in the world. It's so tricky and complicated that big companies who come here and do what they do everywhere else fail. So that's what the, what we've really been investing is building like um, a safe hand where a trustworthy environment where we are working cross border, we're working with Nigeria, working with Kenya, we're working with Morocco, we're working with podcast all over the continent and we're finding like a sort of what we have in common so that we can uh, run campaigns continentally across border, across multiple countries and work together. Um, Nigeria is amazing because it's kind of doing its own thing, but we work very well with Nigeria and South Africa works very well with all of the countries. So that I don't think there is a competing ecosystem. I just think um, it's just quite a, there's not enough collaboration is what I would say.

Speaker A: There's a lot of excitement around podcasting in Africa. But excitement doesn't always translate into sustainability. What hard truths do creators need to hear about building podcasts that can survive for the long term?

Speaker B: Africa is an interesting case study. I think we're pioneering in a lot of places and, and we're falling behind in other places. Where we, where we are head is that Africa just operates differently, we hungrier and the motivations are higher. So there's not a lot of um, you know, when you're in the US or European markets or American markets, a lot of hobbyist podcasters or people who come from their day job and then are uh, trying their hand at podcasting. Africa is not like that. These are like rock stars who are all in, they are decided right. You know, I've got to get out of poverty or I've got to get out of the situation. I'm going to invest, I'm going to do podcasting. And so the kind of excitement and the coolness and the vibe of African podcasts is so cool. Our podcasts are um, mega stars. Some of our, we've got a podcast that's outperforming Joe Rogan regularly. Um, we've got massive audiences, we've got massive swagger. There's revenue in the market. It's very exciting place to be a podcaster. On the other side, where Africa is I think quite innovative is that the, the techno technology um, innovations happening here are second to none. And again it's, it's unintentional but created by the idea that like YouTube's monetization, um, software doesn't work in uh, in, in, in Africa or Spotify's additional new monetization tools haven't rolled out here. We're not on any tech platforms Roadmap. So when they're beta testing something in Europe uh, like they're Busy doing with YouTube with uh, with AdSense, um, programmatic advertising allowing us um, um people to do their own programmatic. That's not going to come here for like four years still. We behind on everything. And what that means is we're a market of people who are struggling to um, that there's a vacuum of technology and ah, a hunger to do stuff and nothing will get in the way. So you've got innovation, tech innovation happening across Africa that is building ecosystems for the podcasting space that the rest of the world don't know about and it is much more current. So prime example is how video and YouTube centric we are in Africa with our technology and our outlook where the rest of the world is still figuring that out and suddenly going, uh, you know, because the whole ecosystem matured in audio only like a decade ago. And when video crept up, people have been in denial. How do you start doing video now that we're in audio? There was no shortage of that. We just started in video in Africa. So the technology is very ready for the market at the moment. Which is why I think like the African tech is leading the way in podcasting. Um, and I think like we're working in the tech space. I think what we're uh, launching this year, Go Podium, is going to just absolutely, ah, smash because of we've built something in an environment where that, that there's sort of unpolluted and we've actually built something that the rest of the podcasting environment is struggling with. And that's really one of the advantages of Africa. One of the disadvantages of very little capital. No one is looking this way. Undervalued audience. But there's a lot of positives.

Speaker A: Many podcasters still think primarily as creators. I know I'm one of them. You've consistently spoken about thinking like an ecosystem builder. What's the difference and what changes when a podcaster shifts that mindset?

Speaker B: Um, the thing I always think about podcasting is this is a snowball. Building a podcast is harder than building, you know, a social media. A lot of, um, you know, we've seen, we made the mistake of signing a lot of podcasters who had, you know, people who are celebrities with a million followers on Instagram and then they, um, started a podcast and everyone was like, ah, oh, this is so exciting. And they failed dismally. It's, it's a different ask. There's no like in adverted commas boosting like you can on TikTok or you can on Instagram. There's no shortcuts to building a podcast audience. There is only shortcuts to, uh, faking your audience numbers. And it backfires every single time. So the, the real long and short of being a podcaster is long term thinking, Planning your hundredth show before you get started, really understanding how much work and effort it is and how demoralizing it is to get to your, say, first thousand subs. Um, it's hard, hard work. And as podcasting is turning into sort of television, in my opinion, and what our business is really built for is this migration, this sort of collaboration between television and podcasters. It means that, um, almost no longer, you know, it's a pity. And you might roll your eyes or say like, I don't you know, if you're a purist in the podcasting space, but there's not really space anymore for like you and your uncle to do a podcast about your favorite cheese. Um, the, the market's become so saturated. There's so many podcasts that now you have to really understand show format. You have to come with something really unique. You've got to come in with a fresh angle and you've got to work hard and you've got to understand analytics. So in the same way in the music industry, no longer can you just be a musician, you have to be a businessman. Um, it's the same in podcasting. You can't just be a creator. You need to understand business. You need to understand the ecosystem that you are building. And what, uh, you know, and you know, what often happens is these podcasts is, you know, they manage to get themselves to a hundred thousand YouTube subs in a quick amount of time and then they don't know what next. And so unless you're really looking at the broader picture, don't let that be you.

Speaker A: If you could redesign Africa's podcast industry from scratch today, what three things would you prioritize?

Speaker B: That's an impossible question. I, uh, feel like we have been designing the African podcast industry from scratch. M. You know, we, I got, I personally was involved very early, before apn, working with some of the biggest emerging podcasters who are now really, really big and got to see the elevator coming up. And my passion in this space is to build a creator centric space, unlike the music industry. The music industry is really in a tough place because it isn't artist centric anymore. It's platform centric and it's hurting the music industry. And what we're trying to do in Africa and with our tech globally is really protect the creator part of it and allow them to be the owners and the controllers of the industry. Um, and it sounds, you know, high Faluti, but I actually think that's, that's what we've built all our tech and all our strategy around. And it's very exciting because still you can see the power that podcasters have.

Speaker A: Discovery remains one of podcasting's biggest challenges globally. Why are, uh, great podcasts still so difficult to find? And what can African creators do about it?

Speaker B: Funny that. It's a great question because whoever solves this, um, uh, discovery question is going to be a billionaire. It is such a, it's such an issue. Um, look, more and more, I think TikTok and YouTube shorts and uh, other platforms are becoming great discovery platforms for podcasting. But, yeah, it's still word of mouth. There's still no strong. Other than Ariella Nizblatt. Um, there isn't really a podcasting, um, discovery platform yet. Uh, and maybe, you know, maybe ChatGPT is going to be that. Um, you know, now that SEO is moving away from sort of Google and into the AIs, maybe the AIs will be the new discovery platforms for people.

Speaker A: We're entering an era shaped by AI, video first consumption and fragmented attention spans, which trends are overhyped and which are genuinely transformative.

Speaker B: Look, um, I could. This is my big focus. And, um, AI is an integral part of the system, but it's got a bad rep and for good reason. And there's kind of three components where AI is really building industry in podcasting. The one is the generative side, and that's where it gets, like, hazy. AI is making music and making podcasts. And, um, they. They're. I don't know what to say.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker B: It's a mess in that space. And it is what it is, where there's a lot of great generative AIs, you know, assisting with maybe transcripts and um, you know, audio cleanups, uh, video backgrounds. That stuff is really exciting. Um, the LM notebook type of stuff is just weird. Um, and these businesses making AI podcasts, it's just weird. But that's not, not really important to me because people always gravitate to, um, you know, stuff that's great and we'll see where that goes. That is of no real concern of interest to me. It just is what it is. And it's the part that everybody loves and hates. The two other parts of the technology part, how AI is playing a role in distribution, platform monetization, platforms. That's very exciting. The speed at which, um, this technology is evolving, the backbones of the podcasting space and how it's going to impact, um, big businesses or how it impacts large distributors like YouTube or Spotify from what they can and can't do or what they can and can't own. So, so that I'm very deeply invested in the tech part of, um, of, uh, of AI. And then the third part of that is, so there's generative AI, which is the making of stuff. There's the technology part. Oh, and then there's the agentic part. And, and that's also kind of scary and exciting. But in the podcasting space, you know, we're not Hollywood, right? And when you're a podcast you're sort of one or two or three man show. You've got small, um, teams and you're wanting to do a lot. And I think that's where AI agent, you know, building agents, essentially building a business around your podcast that leans on agents, makes your business cost effective, actually leans into the revenue model of podcasting. And that's very, very exciting to me. So that's my sort of AI take. I'm very positive about this. I'm very much in the trenches. You know, we're building Go Podium, which is deeply advanced and interesting tech for podcasting and I think it's going to be transformative. So, yeah, I'm excited about the AI stuff. Just this generative stuff is confusing where like, is it a human or not? And when it's involved in the creative process. But I also understand it's very helpful as well. It's not that I, I just think that the genie is out the bottle. Um, we can debate this as long as you want to, but it's out. And there are bad people are going to use AI and there's good people who ah, are going to use AI. Just be one of the good people.

Speaker A: So, John, you've spent years helping brands understand podcasting. What is one misconception brands still have about the medium?

Speaker B: Um, look, I, I'm in a, I'm in a territory where brands are very, very conservative and it's not their fault. But the, the, the media, the, the marketing world, the brand world is coming out of a very difficult time and, and this podcasting space is very difficult to comprehend for them. Specifically, specifically with the size of the budget that's been going into legacy media, podcasting on paper is by far the most effective advertising tool. Has the highest conversion rate of any media. I'll say that again. Highest conversion rate of any media. That what people are looking for, brands are looking for, um, the highest advertisement attention rate of any media, which is bananas, right? And those are the gold standards of what every brand is looking for. So why are there more people looking at the advertising space? And a lot of that just has to do with how advertising works, how media agencies work, how brand, you know, how polit everyone is fighting for their lunch. And um, the real issues that I think that brands are struggling with is just the same scalability of a podcast are still largely siloed. So when you do a TV ad, you got big budgets, you've got big audiences, or a radio ad, you've got big budget, you've got big audiences. In podcasting, you've got lots and lots and lots of small audiences to make a big audience. So they're not all on one radio station airwave. They're kind of all over. Um, and not to pants our, uh, tech go podium, this is the problem we're solving is we want to turn independent podcasters into networks. Want them to be able to behave like networks and remain, um, independent so that brands at scale can work with podcasters at scale. Um, but you asked. I wasn't, I wasn't selling us that. That's what we're doing. And, uh, that's the answer to your question.

Speaker A: Looking ahead five years, what will define a successful African podcast?

Speaker B: That's a big question. I think, like, just from a business perspective, we have in Africa, we have very weak currencies. And, um, YouTube and Spotify pay very different rates to South African audiences or Nigerian audiences or Kenyan audiences. They do to US audiences. It's a big gripe down here. We understand that's the nature of the commercialization, but, uh, we don't earn a considerable much of the revenue. Like, if an African podcast would be successful, it should aim at building African audiences, but also be able to attract American audiences. And that's what you call the arbitrage. If you spend $10, or let's say, let's say you spend $100 to make your podcast and you make $1,000 back, you got a 10 to 1 ratio. There's. But that same podcast is going to cost you, um, $3 in Kenya and $1 in Morocco. So if you are investing $1 costing you to make a podcast and you're getting your hundred dollars back, that's m. A much higher margin. So I think African podcasts that can attract global audiences are going to see massive success, and that's something to really look out for. That's how I would define you. The answer to that question, what is

Speaker A: one piece of advice you've changed your mind about over the years?

Speaker B: Oh, I do this every day. I change my mind every day. Um, I think, like, being able to pivot into research and analytics is, um, is what makes our business really exciting. Um, one of the things that's changed my mind over the years, and it's going to sound super corporate, but when I first started this business, I was very focused on the biggest podcasters around. And over time I learned that I lost more money than I made on those massive podcasts is that brand safety and ideological alignment about building positive sentiment is more important than size of your audience. Um, you know, when it Comes to commercialization. There's two types of commercialization. There's I've got a Kabillion followers and I'm making my AdSense revenue and my Spotify programmatic, and that's great. And then you've got brand partnerships, which is, in my opinion, like 4x that budget. Now if you are offending people out there and, and saying really controversial stuff, yes, you get your numbers, yes, you get that revenue, but you don't get the partnership revenue, which is more significant, more sustainable, in my opinion. So being brand safe does not mean not being edgy or controversial, just means being aware of the business part of your podcast so that brands can happily and safely work with you. That is, um, was more of a realization than a mind change. Where we were hunting big podcasters, now we hunt reliable podcasters. And it's a lot better for business.

Speaker A: If a future historian were documenting African podcasting, what would you hope they say about this era and your role in it?

Speaker B: I hope that they would say that I was instrumental in building industry. That's very much like a big passion for me. I'm not trying to build our business. I mean, actually our business only works at scale because the business model, even though I fight with my business partners all the time, our business model is to build a creator centric community, which means giving maximum M profit and money over to the podcaster so that they can continue to build and survive. Um, and that's like, I think, really important to the next few years that we're all invested in not just grabbing our piece of the pie, but reinvesting and building the industry. And we've kind of doing that up front to our own, at our own expense. Uh, which doesn't make so much sense on the spreadsheets, but makes fundamental sense into what we're building. Um, and I hope people recognize that the role we're playing is a very positive role. Um, you know, we're not trying to stamp, um, you know, become the next big monster media empire. We're trying to work collaborative with other media empires and build something that's sustainable and that can put Africa on the map globally. And I think our tech might do that as well.

Speaker A: That's it for this episode. Subscribe, share and connect at Tony Doe Media. See you in the podverse.

Speaker B: It.