Hiring Beyond the Resume: Finding the Right Fit for Your Team with Jamie Van Cuyk

Speaker A: Hey, everybody, this is Andrea Jensen from, um, the Cash Flow cfo. And you're listening to the Cash Flow CFO Podcast, the show that explores the financial side of running a business for people who want to maximize profitability and scale with confidence. If you want to make smart financial decisions based on data and put more of your hard earned profits into your pocket, this is the podcast for you. This episode of the Cash Flow CFO Podcast is brought to you by the Cash Flow cfo. Did you know that on average, business owners have up to 84% of their personal net worth tied up in their business? Our virtual CPAs and CFOs, as well as accounting and bookkeeping experts, empower business owners just like you to make big leaps that help them maximize profitability and scale with confidence. Visit thecashflowcfo.com for more information and thank you for listening.

Speaker B: Hey everyone, it's Andrea and our guest for today is Jamie Van Kike. Jamie is a hiring consultant who helps women small business owners become confident leaders who hire right every single time. After leaving a successful corporate career to follow her entrepreneurship dreams, Jamie quickly learned that many business owners had no or minimal experience hiring employees with ineffective teams being one of the top reasons businesses fail. Jamie felt inspired to help companies overcome this challenge and succeed today. Drawing from her over 15 years of leadership experience, Jamie teaches her clients how to master the art of hiring and hosts the Growing youg Team podcast. She is also a contributing author of Rise and Find. Jamie lives in St. Petersburg, Florida with her two daughters and she loves to travel, is a home winemaker. I'll have to hear more about that. And enjoys exercise that takes her feet off the ground, including rock climbing and aerial dance. Welcome to the show, Jamie.

Speaker C: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you because I know this is such a important topic that a lot of business owners, um, we're struggling with. Right. Especially certain industries are more hard hit than others when they're trying to, um, you know, ah, attract and retain top talent. So I'd love to hear a little bit, you know, how did you get started in this particular field?

Speaker C: Yeah, so it's kind of a very winding path. So I'll try to give the very brief version of it. I was in corporate leadership. I always knew I wanted to run my own business, but I didn't know really what I wanted to do. So my goal when I was in corporate was learn as much as I can about being a leader and about running a business. So when I, when I Feel like it's time to make the leap. I feel like I'm as prepared as I can be as a leader. So I left my corporate job. I then started a business and hated it. It was in software development. We were developing an app. I was learning how to program as we went along, thinking we were going to create this next great big thing, and hated it with a passion. Realized that I didn't even want to be in the leadership in the tech space, that it was not something for me. So I was like, what do I do? And during that time, the corporate company that I left kept me on as a consultant to help with some projects. The two that I absolutely loved were around leadership development. So I was like, okay, I really like this consulting. I like teaching people how to be better leaders. So it's like, what do I do around this? So I didn't know what packages to pitch, what to put out there. So I was like, let me do a lot of market research. I have a Chamber membership. Let me go to the Chamber. Let me talk to people. Let me find out what their issues are. And every person I would talk to, I'd gravitate to would be a small business owner. And I'd be like, okay, well, tell me what your issues are. And hiring would come up all the time. And at first I was just like, uh, I don't have an HR background, but I had a lot of experience hiring from corporates. I was like, let me just give you some free advice. And they'd come back and be like, oh, my gosh, that worked. I got my first great hire in forever. Like, tell me more. Can I hire you? Can you recruit for us? And I'd be like, nope. I'm like, I don't think that's what I want to do. I'm going to do. I want to do leadership consulting for corporate companies, not small businesses. I was like, let me find you somebody. And I couldn't find anyone to refer them to because most people that were doing recruiting and hiring support for small businesses define small businesses as 50 plus employees. Which, yes, technically by definition, that is a small business. But these were people trying to hire their first employee, their fifth employee, their tenth employee. They weren't at that size yet. So these people wouldn't even talk to them. And the more I looked around, I was like, there's this huge gap here. People need this knowledge, they need the support, and no one's truly serving them unless it's built into some other package that they have. And I was like, so there's this gap. I have all this knowledge. It's working. Why am I not starting a business around this? And so that was in 2018. And since then, like growing your team, we've been serving small business owners throughout the hiring process. So we do a lot of hiring guidance, education, and full service recruiting.

Speaker B: I love that because, uh, you know, the first thing you said that stood out to me is you went out and you said, you know, like, what's, what's going on? You surveyed the market. Right. Where's the real need at and how can I best serve that need? Um, I think so many times we see business owners that start something they're passionate about and are kind of like pushing it on people versus filling a need and, um, finding gaps in the market. Right. So that was really, really smart, um, for you to start that and tell me a little bit more because I know we've used your services. We love working with you. From my perspective, one of the best things that you guys offer is you said it's usually not their 51st employee that you're hiring. It's their third or their fifth or their 10th, which means they're expanding their org chart. Right. So for all of our listeners and viewers, you might be in a position where, okay, I have the budget now to bring on, you know, uh, a new role that's going to help in the business as we grow and scale. And I've never hired for that position before. And that's really important because you can't take an existing position's job description and just go, I'm just going to change the words and plug in, uh, for this new role because it's such a unique position, you need to start from scratch. Right? Yeah. And that's what you guys helped us do when we were expanding our org chart. And it was so helpful. So I'd love tell talk a little bit about that, please, and kind of how you guys are very different, the way you approach it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So we work with clients really in three, uh, main ways. One is do it yourself. So we'll provide you the tools where you can go do your own hiring done with you. Where we provide the tools, we're coaching and guiding you through the process. So we're teaching you as you go. So that's great. If you've never hired before and you're like, what do I do? Or I've made a million mistakes in the past, but I want to learn how to do it. And then we do full service recruiting where we take over the Bulk of the work. But every one of those processes, we start exactly the same. Where we have a hiring kickoff call, where we're uncovering your idea candidate, we're asking a bunch of questions to really figure out what do you need and who is going to be successful in that role. So it's not just, I need someone who's going to come in and do these tasks. It's what does that actually look like inside your organization? Or if you tell me that you need someone that's highly organized, what does being highly organized mean to you? A team player. What does that mean? Like, what does that mean to you? Great communication style. Okay, what does that mean to you? All right, you told me at the beginning of the call that these are your company values. Well, how does those values fit into this role? So I can see this connection here. Okay, now that we know this, we have this picture of this idea candidate, and we build then everything else around that idea candidate. When we're coaching or, uh, when we're doing the recruiting ourselves, we're looking for that idea candidate. So we could find someone that could be absolutely fantastic at the skills. But they're never going to fit inside your organization. And that's not going to work because it's always going to feel like coaching them and leading them and working with them is like nails on a chalkboard where you're just like, they do their job, but I just hate them. Being there. There feels like there's something off. So especially in a small business where you might have a team of three, you need every one of those people to feel like they're a part of your organization. So we take it a step forward, farther than most people, where we say, not only can they do the work, are they the right person for your organization? And what does that actually mean? And you might tell me one thing. But then as I'm listening to you during that hiring kickoff call, I say, okay, well, you told me this, but now I'm hearing this, so which one is it? Let's talk through that. Or you told me this here, but now I learned what you really mean by it for here. So I'll ask the question. I was like, okay, you said you needed a team player. What I got from you over here is that a team player is someone that shows up and does this, this, and this. Does that sound right? Does that sense? And one of the things I often hear is when we provide a job post back, that we say, this speaks directly to your idea candidate. Or we're talking about things and people are like, oh my gosh, like you were in my head and you put the words together that I was trying to put together, but I didn't know how to describe it. And we just have a way of pulling out those things that you're sometimes so close that you don't know how to describe it yourself.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And that's so, so incredibly important. Right? So from, uh, you know, a cfo, a consultant standpoint, you know, um, we' helping our clients to grow their business, right. And so we're saying, okay, congratulations, you now have extra money in your budget. You can afford to hire, you know, what we've identified as the next key player to continue to scale and grow the business. And if you have to go back to the drawing board a couple times to get that right person in that role that is not in your budget, right. That's going to cost you so much more money and energy and time. And it really detracts from the team morale as well. Right. When you've got people kind of coming in that aren't the right fit and you have to, um, go through that process by figuring it out, by doing, instead of taking that step back, having somebody like you that you can bounce that off of and really hone in on what is the right fit for my company. Because the other thing is that, uh, the job description, or I'm sorry, the title. I hear so many titles thrown around all the time, especially in finance. Someone will be like, oh, I have a director of, of accounting or director of financ. And I'll come in. I'm like, you're a staff accountant? What, what are you like, how did somebody, just because business owners don't know, they just start throwing out titles and then it just, it gunks up so many things, you know, as they, you know, really are going out and trying to bring in that, that role. If they're mislabeling it, you know, then people are gonna either pass up their job posting. Cause they're gonna be like, oh, you know, maybe they have it flip flopped. They, they label it as a staff accountant. They're really looking for, you know, a senior accountant or a manager. So I think it's so important to protect your investment by going, slowing down, going through these steps, really, um, understand who it is that you need, what their function is going to be. Um, when you are looking at, it's a new position in a company, are you going into, uh, KPIs for the role? When you're building out these, um, hiring guides with the business owners, sometimes we

Speaker C: don't get as detailed as making sure that you have like, goals and KPIs set up. But one of the questions we ask is what does success look like in this role? So we, we approach it from that, um, sometimes I phrase it even as six months or a year down the road. What does it mean for you to be happy with this employee and that you think it was a good investment on your team? So the first thing I say is like, kind of, well, why are we hiring for this position? Most businesses owners are like, because I need time back in my day. And we're like, okay, but how does this person actually support you getting time back in your day? What does that look like? And that can pull out, you know, different things. Uh, because it could go that they need someone to execute these tasks. They don't have to do the execution. Or it could be, I need someone who's doing the strategic thought process here. And those are two different roles to execute or do the strategic thought process. Sometimes they can be combined roles, but those are two different things. Or if they say, well, this person's going to help me secure clients and rebuild, uh, relationships and make it so we retain business, okay, that's an important thing. We need to make sure that customer service aspect is a part of the role, even if it's a typical position where customer service doesn't seem like a normal responsibility. So when we really look at, we want to make sure that they understand what is possible when this role comes in. Because if you don't understand what the end game is, how do we know we're bringing in the right person?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's so true. And you know, and um, perfect, like marrying of the two functions, right? Um, hr, accounting operations, they're so intertwined. And that's the conversation that we're having too, of like, okay, let's put some milestones in place. Um, is this, is this role a revenue generating role or is it a support role? And those are two very different conversations and also different ways of measuring the results and the, the end goal for them.

Speaker C: So yeah, and I think, I think for you, if you also think about it, when you guys are bringing on clients, if you have a client that says, we love our business where it's at, make sure we're making smart decisions, make sure we're not losing money versus a client that says, we want to grow and we want to grow fast and we need to reach these revenue milestones because we want to open a second property or we want to do this and we want to do that. And you're going to approach their finances differently. You're probably going to offer them different suggestions, you're going to look at things from a different point of view. So at the end of the day, some of the work might be the same, but it's like, what are we doing as a result of this work? What type of advice do I give them? Because this is what they want. You know, assistance that is helping just take work off your plate is completely different than an assistant. That is that forward thinker that is managing your schedule and making it so you are in the right place at the right time because they are doing all that thought process for you.

Speaker B: No, absolutely, absolutely 100%. So tell me a little bit about um, what are you seeing right now in the market as far as hiring? What are some of the trends, um, have there? I know from what we're seeing, you know, on a macro level, there's a lot of changes in the way businesses are, um, attracting clients, are delivering services. Some industries are particularly squeezed on talent. Right. There's a talent shortage. So what are you seeing from your point of view, um, in the hiring market? Recruiting.

Speaker C: Yeah. So, uh, some of the things that I'm currently seeing is one, there's a lot of employees that want some site, some type of hybrid opportunity or at least even if they're not in office, opportunities to meet their team in person every once in a while. There's people that absolutely love remote work, but some people are missing being around people. So if you're thinking about if you have a physical office and you're trying to figure out do I do an office, do I do remote, do I do hybrid, There's a lot of people who want that, that hybrid there. So don't be afraid of posting hybrid positions or in off positions if that's what works for your, for your business. If you're fully remote, yes, there's still a lot of people who want fully remote jobs as well. But that's one thing I'm seeing with candidates. Another thing just from the candidate side that I'm seeing is a lot of people when they're looking for moves, it's typically because they feel like they've reached a ceiling in their current organization. And the way we conduct a lot of our interviews, we might ask them exactly directly, like why you're looking for a new opportunity. But we like to tend to pull out some information along. So I feel like this is true. They feel like they've, they've reached a ceiling in their current organization. And so one of the things I always challenge business owners on is what does growth look like inside your organization? And a lot of people will say, well, I'm a small business. It's not really going to grow that far. It's not going to change too much. And that's for some small businesses. As we talked about, there's businesses out there. They're like, we're pretty stable. We just want to keep things moving and grooving. It provides me what I need for my family. I am not that ambitious person that says, give me more and more and more and more and more. And if that's where your business is at, we need to make sure that we're communicating that with candidates. This is an organization that is stable. It's not a lot of growth. There's not a lot of upward mobility. So you have to be okay with that when you're coming in. So you don't get someone come in in a year later, they're like, there's no place for me to go. If you're a growing organization and thriving organization, one of the things I challenge people on is how are you preparing your team members for that next level? So if you're going to go and say, I'm currently hiring my executors, the people that are doing the work, well, eventually you grow to the point where you need someone to manage those executors. So how do you prepare your team to eventually maybe step up into that management role instead of always having to go outside when you need someone at that next level? How do you approach professional development and things like that? And that's what some people want to know. And that's something I challenge business owners on a lot, is like, what does this look like? Because if we expect people to come in and always be stagnant in a role, we're looking at a completely different candidate pool than if there's growth opportunity. And I think that's really important because as you mentioned, there's some industries where they're really squeezed for talents. And sometimes part of the reason they're really squeezed for talent is because no one's investing in helping these employees grow, so no one's getting to that next level. So they're always like, well, I don't want to train them because what happens if they leave? But we have to realize sometimes we're this community and we're this general workforce that, yes, the person I train might leave and go someplace else, but I'm going to hire the person someone else trained. So it's like I give so I get instead of I'm not going to give because I might be giving to somebody else.

Speaker D: Every seven figure business needs a clear financial direction. And that's exactly what you get with the Cash Flow Compass. Every Tuesday we share strategic insights, tools and smart money moves designed to help you scale faster, increase profitability and make confident decisions all in one quick, actionable email. If you're not getting the Cash Flow Compass yet, you are flying blind. Sign up for free at the cash flow compass cfo.com compass and start steering your business towards predictable, profitable growth.

Speaker B: Even if you're a small business, there's opportunity to create upward growth because it costs so much more money to hire and train and get somebody acclimated.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Because as your, your business becomes more sophisticated, uh, the longer you do it and so you might not need a full other person. Right. You can just take somebody and start upgrading their skills and they can do both. And then there's also like, we say this all the time with our team. It's like write your SOPs and write your all, document everything that you do so that you're essentially training your replacement so you can move up and somebody else will come in at that level. And you've already got everything dialed in for them. Right. Because it helps them to kind of think differently as they're doing their day to day. Um, I know especially in the accounting industry we are so squeezed for star players. Um, and so that's some good advice there.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker B: It's like understand even if your business is, you just want to keep it steady. Um, you might think that today, but we talk to businesses all the time and then the next, you know, it could be a month from now, it could be a year from now, you're going to have different life, uh, things that are happening in your life, you're gonna, you know, your desires change. So why not be, you know, prepared for that and, and talking building up your team to basically relieve more things off of your plate as the owner.

Speaker C: Yep. And I will say some of the hardest positions to fill or to uh, people for hire, to hire for are your first management set of management managers. Uh, and not that it's difficult to find the people that it's difficult for the business owner to let go and give the true responsibility there and fully delegate. Because it's one thing to let people do the execution work that you're overseeing, it's another thing to let go of the strategic thoughts and the leadership and it's super difficult. So if you have a team member that you are training to really become that manager or to be step first into that team lead position where maybe they're still doing half account work and half managing and mentoring their team members, it makes that transition a little easier because you're, you're grooming them for that role along the way. So it's not someone new that's coming in and you have to trust somebody new and let go of these things for the first time and all this stuff and that huge like, jump in payment because that manager is going to be making more than that individual contributor. You can have that kind of stairstep approach. You can learn to let go a little bit at a time so it's not so scary.

Speaker B: And I think that, you know, there's just so much, there's little things, right? There's the big rocks and then there's the pebbles that make up the rules. And I think too, you know, when you're talking about what you're, you're explaining here of, you know, bring somebody up to be that manager instead of bringing it in from the outside. Um, the other side of that too is that if you have that opportunity, businesses that go to sell are so much more valuable when they have employees with long tenure, um, also when they have a professionally managed company. So if you're a business owner listening to this and you're still pushing a lot of buttons in your business and you want to sell in the next one to three years, you need to be thinking about bringing somebody up if that's an option for you to professionally manage that business. Because your value will increase by, you know, three to five, five times of the multiple. So that in itself should be something that, you know, you're starting to think about these things as well. Yeah.

Speaker C: And it's like one of those things that's like, sometimes I don't think we realize how much we hold ourselves back because we hold onto too much control. And we have to be willing to let go and we have to be willing to delegate. And I know we fear like, what if they make a mistake? Well, we make mistakes all the time. Like we're not perfect, so we shouldn't expect our employees to be perfect either.

Speaker B: And that's just, that's really part of the, you know, every entrepreneur has five exits from their business. Right. And the first one is getting out of the day to day doing. And um, you know, as you're building that team, that's, that's doing that, you Know, let them, let them make decisions, let them make mistakes and then that's your opportunity to identify where they need a little bit more coaching and, and um, you know, to reinforce skills and then, you know, otherwise you're never going to know. You can't just say I'm going to train on everything. Right. Let them get in and test their, their decision making capability and then go from there. So yeah, I think that's super valuable advice. Um, what else would you say if you have somebody that I like the management layer. Right. Because that is a business that's kind of, that's a big jump right from where you're at now to bringing in, to being professionally managed. So what are some of the other pieces, uh, of advice that you would give to a business owner who's hiring, um, for their first management role?

Speaker C: One of the things I will say is, and I don't think most people realize this is while some people are good leaders, they're not necessarily good managers. So if you, you have to approach things in two different ways. Do you hire the person who has already been trained or do you have some sort of training program for this person? So you need to look at it, is, does this person actually have management skills or are they a good leader? And I think there's, there's completely different things there and there's some people that can lead up but can't lead down. So make sure you're looking for the right things. When you go to hire that first manager, you know the problems that typically occur on your team, you know what this person has to coach their team through and problems. I'm not, I'm not necessarily talking about mistakes or things like that or it's just that we work with X type of clients. These are the things that typically happen. These are the things where our team members need support just because they're the things that, because of our processes, because of what we do, they need that extra set of eyes on these things. They need that, that critical thinking and that problem solving that we want to come from a senior leader versus them doing it all on their own. So when you know what type of things that they're going to coach on, you focus. You need to make sure you're going to bring someone in who can actually help with that. So I think when we were uh, working together, one of the things you guys wanted in one of your leaders was say you think uh, we talked about at that time was you do a lot of we will train people in their role. Like we will train People to be better at the skills so they don't need to come in being a full expert for the individual contributors. Like, we will train, but we need someone who can train, who can mentor. Because just because you can do doesn't mean you can teach. And just because you can lead doesn't mean you can teach and mentor. So we focused heavily on that is, can this person be a good mentor and trainer to the team members so that way they can build the team. And it'd be completely different if we said we always have a team of experts. We hired the best in the field. They have 12 years of experience before they will ever look at their resume. We just need to lead someone through the day to day.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And that's a really good point too, because you have to adapt to what you're given.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: In the market, in the marketplace. Um, and it's that, that marrying of I have a budget that I have to stick with because I know the pricing that the market will bear for what it is that I'm doing. So it's this puzzle, right? And this is one of the pieces of the puzzle that help you to have a profitable business is understanding what are my constraints and how am I going to work around those and bring in the right person. Um, that's going to be that puzzle piece to help me achieve that goal. So I love that. Such a great example. Um, so what are some of the questions that I didn't ask you, Jamie, that I should have? That is some, uh, really good information for sharing with our listeners. Yeah.

Speaker C: So one of the things that just came to mind with kind, uh, of what we talked about with kind of training and coaching is what about when that team member's really not working out? Like, what do we do there? How do we know when it is the right time to say, maybe I made a mistake, you know, hiring. We can provide you all the tools we can do, uh, provide you all the guidance. But there's always things that we cannot uncover during the hiring process. And so we can be right 95% of the time that 5% of the time you're going to bring someone in that is not a, that's not the best fit and that's not uncovered until they're on the team. So how do we know when we should let someone go? And this is, I. This is, uh, one of the things we coach a lot on because as business owners, especially small business owners, we're busy and we sometimes forget how important training and onboarding is for our team members. So there's a lot of times when someone wants to let someone go that we need to, like, be like, hold on, let's pause. Let's go back to the drawing board. Let's actually go through the training that this person was given. You're saying that they're. They're not achieving X. Well, what did we train them on X? What did that training look like? Did we ever go back and correct their behavior when they did it wrong the first time? So sometimes we assume that if someone does it wrong this time, I don't have to say anything because they know that they did it wrong too, and they'll get it right the next time. Well, guess what? They probably thought they did it right. And especially because you didn't correct them, they. That confirmed to them that they did it right. So we need to make sure that we're properly training, that we have onboarding plans. Even when you hire an expert who knows what they're doing, they've never done it for you. So they don't know your processes. They don't know your way of doing things how you like things. Like, I just. I remember, um, well, two conversations just came to mind, and these are kind of personal conversations, but one was with my daughter, and we were talking about things, and it was probably about two minutes into a conversation where it was realizing that we weren't actually talking about the same thing. And she was like, oh, gosh, Mom, I'm so sorry. I was like, what are you sorry for? You approach the conversation from your point of view. I approached it from my point of view. We thought we were talking about the same thing and about the same page for about two minutes, and then we realized we weren't. So we just need to restart the conversation now that we're on the same page. And it's sometimes the same. When you're bringing on employees, they have their point of view, they have their perspective. So they're going to interpret what you say from their point of view. They're going to assume you're on the same page until you prove to them otherwise, until you correct their behavior, until you say, all right, I see what you did there. But in our organization, we actually need it this way. And sometimes taking on that accountability. I realize I forgot to train you on this. I realize I forgot to tell you what to do in this situation, so let me train you on that now so that way it can be correct according to our standards here inside our company moving forward.

Speaker B: I love that. Uh, that was so good. And it's such a graceful way. You know, I think a lot of business owners avoid confrontation. Um, and when you have a small team, you have to be comfortable having those uncomfortable conversations and taking ownership of, like, hey, I might have missed that. And if I did, here, I'm making it right so that next time we're all on the same page that we talked about it, and then there's no, um, you know, ambiguity or anything like that about, uh, they're very clear on what success looks like, and I think that's so important.

Speaker C: So you brought up a good point about avoiding confrontation. So I recently had someone on my podcast who was talking about, um, an experience that they had. They were working in a coffee shop and there were employees that were slacking off, and you had their employees that were picking up the slack. And someone asked the managers, like, well, you going to do anything about it? And they're like, well, no, like, the hiring market's bad. So I don't want to lose these employees. So I'm just going to let it sleep slide because I don't want to deal with the confrontation. And I, in everything but the employees that were overachieving said, well, you're not dealing with them and we're picking up the slack. So while you don't want that to make them feel bad about things, you're actually making us feel bad about things. So as a result, they ended up losing their good employees because they wouldn't deal with the bad employees. And so that's. Sometimes you have to think about it. It's like, what happens if you don't go through that confrontation, what happens in your business when you let things slide? And sometimes it impacts your other employees m. And impacts that morale. Sometimes it's impacting your clients, it's impacting your bottom line, it's impacting your time and energy as a manager. Because when employees are really not performing, you think about that. You think about them way more than you should be.

Speaker B: 100% so true.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, Jamie. Such good, great information to share with everybody. And I know, um, our listeners are probably like, yep, I gotta go, I gotta go handle some things. And it could have been any one of these topics that we talked about today because they're just so. It's so relevant. It's just day to day. If you own a business, you're dealing with one of these things in some fashion. So, um, thank you for bringing all of that to light and having a conversation around it. If our listeners would like to, um, learn more about you and your services, how can they get a hold of you?

Speaker C: Yeah. So you can go to growingyourteam.com to learn more about what we do and the services that we offer. And you can schedule a call. You can schedule a free call with me and we can jump on and just talk about where you are in the hiring process and talk about what your next step should be.

Speaker B: Love that. Perfect. And we'll put all of those links to your website and ways to get in touch with you in the show notes. And, um, thank you again for your time today. It was a great conversation and I hope all of our listeners and viewers got some good takeaways and some, some little, uh, words of wisdom to go and implement in their business.

Speaker C: Thank you for having me.

Speaker A: Thank you for listening. Don't forget to like and review and we'll catch you on the next episode. If you're looking for more content or resources in the meantime, check out our website, for instance, information, blogs and our. I've got a spreadsheet for that series. That's thecashflowcfo.com. again, the cashflowcfo.com. we can't wait to hear from you.