Navigating Pivotal Moments in Business: Jonathan Lewis, President of McKee Wallwork, on Brand Resilience and Growth

Narrator: Foreign.

Ashutosh Garg: Welcome to another episode of the Brand Called you a, uh, vodcast and podcast show that brings you leadership lessons, knowledge, experience and wisdom from thousands of successful individuals from around the world. I'm your host, Ashutosh Garg. And today I'm delighted to welcome a very senior professional with a deep understanding of brand strategy from New Mexico, USA, Mr. Jonathan Lewis. Jonathan, welcome to the show.

Jonathan Lewis: Thank you so much. Honored to be here.

Ashutosh Garg: Thank you. Jonathan is the president of McKee Wallwork, a, ah, nationally recognized brand strategy firm that helps CEOs and leadership teams through pivotal moments. He is also an author of three books including Brand vs Wild Building Resilient Brands for Harsh Business Environments and the Rebuilders Daily Foundations for the Leaders We Need. So Jonathan, my first question. McKee Wallwork positions itself around pivotal moments. How do you define a pivotal moment in a company life cycle?

Jonathan Lewis: Uh, there are many and there are several that we don't um, specialize in. But in particular for us they're moments like succession moments like high growth or, or saturated, um, growth, declining growth. These are triggers for identity crisis. And not everybody views them that way. Obviously we're identity experts, we're brand experts. So we view everything through that lens. Every time an organization goes through one of these moments, um, their, their old story is beginning to wash away. A new story is needed to succeed in the new phase of business. And often they need a guide or a Sherpa, uh, through that, that wilderness.

Ashutosh Garg: Very interesting. And what makes, uh, your firm fundamentally different from traditional branding or advertising agencies?

Jonathan Lewis: Well, I'm sure there's things we share in common. I think, um, some of it is philosophy. So in the modern, um, this modern communication environment, I think inside out branding is one of the key philosophies to successful brands where you begin with a true authentic understanding of who you are inside who, who you perceive yourself to be. And then you work your way out to then invite in the customer to that same tribe and that same story. Um, if you continue to try to do outside in, um, that. That's sort of the stereotype that everyone's tired of. Just say whatever it takes to, to make a sale. M. Um, among other things. But I think it's also interesting, you know, we are located in a desert in the United States. Yeah, we're in the Southwest and we work with obviously organizations all over the country. But, um, where do you go when you don't know who you are? You know, if you think of stories around the world, um, whenever there's an identity crisis or a time for A new story. People go to the desert, they go to the wilderness. There's a reason there's a draw to Albuquerque, to Santa Fe, to Taos. People come here to, to figure out who they are and what to do. And then they often go back home and they have new direction and new motivation. Um, and so there's something there too. You know, we, we live in the desert and we often guide folks through that process.

Ashutosh Garg: Fascinating. You know, that's a very interesting and new perspective. I've heard of the desert and I'm going to remember this one and how people go and rediscover themselves there. Uh, moving on. Uh, Jonathan, what types of organizations benefit the most from your approach? Are they scale ups, are they legacy firms or turnaround situations or all of the above?

Jonathan Lewis: Well, we've worked with all of them. We've been in business almost 30 years. We've learned, uh, we're not good matches with startups. And that's because they don't know who they are.

Ashutosh Garg: Mhm.

Jonathan Lewis: Um, and they've never known who they are. They're trying to figure it out. They're like an adolescent trying on new clothes, hanging out with new friends, trying to figure out who they are. People call it product market match. And um, obviously that's part of it. Uh, so we're not a good match with them because we, we don't, we're not good at just helping you explore and try new things. What we want to do is, is go deep and reveal who you already know you are and then use that. It's very much like, um, Starbucks today where they've had some struggles the last few years and much of it is because they forgot who they are. They forgot the third place. Not home, not work. They forgot that it's about the experience. And the new CEO recently installed, um, has been refocusing the organization on who they've been the whole time. And it's actually working. The quarterly results just came out. It's working because, because you remember who you are and you apply that to a new, a new domain or a new market environment. That's where we thrive. So, so startups don't know who they are. Once they've passed that stage, we're great. And turnarounds, um, are going through often a fundamental identity shift. Um, and we are not as well suited for true turnarounds, uh, where it's really a economic crisis moment. There's better firms suited for that.

Ashutosh Garg: Very interesting. And when I was preparing for my conversation with Hugh, I was fascinated to see that Stalled growth is a recurring theme in a lot of your work. Yeah. What are some of the most common hidden causes behind stalled growth?

Jonathan Lewis: Yeah, well, we've done a lot of research on this over the years, uh, we've about 20 years of research and um, have conducted this among thousands of executives. And there are um, seven key factors correlated with growth. Three of them, we call them market tectonics because they're, they're outside of your control, they're going to move under your feet whether you like it or not. But they do obviously impact growth and that's the economy, industry disruption, and whatever the competition is doing. It's important and we need to be, pay attention to it. But you're not going to control it. What has blown us away over the years and where uh, we really focus is four of the seven factors that are highly correlated with growth are inside of leadership teams. They we've learned that alignment, or lack of alignment is highly correlated with growth problems. Lack of focus, loss of nerve or kind of losing your swagger, losing your confidence. If you've lost it, you're, you're probably not going to grow. And then inconsistency in the marketplace. These are things that combined. When you see a uh, stalled company, you probably have an indecisive leadership team. You're, you're stuck, you're paralyzed, you don't know how to move forward. And this is why identity is so powerful. If you know who you are, even in, in very uncertain environments, you can know what to do because who you are orients you to the decision in front of you and helps you be decisive. And that's really the core of, of what we do for leadership teams. We call it brand strategy, but we're, we're enabling decisiveness among these leadership teams.

Ashutosh Garg: Fascinating. How early can leadership teams detect signals of stagnation before it becomes visible in revenue?

Jonathan Lewis: Oh, probably, at least, um, you could probably go at least 12 to 18 months.

Ashutosh Garg: Mhm.

Jonathan Lewis: Um, and that's because often what we see is success is the beginning of failure because success breeds pride and distraction and boredom. So things might look good on the revenue side. But if we, if we measure that alignment is dipping or focus is dipping, um, what that means is, you know, go out a few months, go out a year or two, you're, you're very likely going to, um, because of the distraction, very likely going to see a revenue dip or a, or even a margin dip. So probably 12 to 18 months, um, give or take, depending on industry.

Ashutosh Garg: And can brand strategy alone unlock growth or must it be integrated with operations and culture.

Jonathan Lewis: Uh, absolutely integrated. Um, what I would say is there's various forms of leverage in business and we're all kind of intuitively know this and a great CEO knows this. Um, so you have, technology is an incredible lever. You know, you can do much more faster. Um, media is, you have enough money, you can pour it into media and you get in front of more eyeballs. Um, labor is sort of the oldest form of leverage and there's various forms to use it more effectively or not. What some, some CEOs see this, but not all, a lot of them miss it. Identity is a form of business leverage.

Ashutosh Garg: Correct.

Jonathan Lewis: And so if, and we would even say obviously because we're brand experts, uh, identity is the primary leverage. Because If I spend 15 minutes with a CEO and I ask him a couple of questions and I get to know them a little bit, if I get to know who they are, I can probably guess how, because of their identity, how they're going to use the other form forms of leverage. So you know, capital or debt is a form of leverage. Uh, well that's a very personal thing. Some, some people hate debt and are debt averse. Some people are, have high risk tolerance. If I can get to know you, I'm going to have a good idea of how you're going to use the other forms of leverage because identity is leverage itself.

Ashutosh Garg: Yeah, well said. How do you translate behavioral or psychological insights into actionable brand strategy?

Jonathan Lewis: Oh my goodness. Um, it's all, it's all psychological and spiritual. Um, it, that's, that's because it's humanity. We're talking about humans, human nature, how people interact. It's, and it's, it's obviously not just rational. We've known this for a long time. It's not just irrational, it's non rational. So that's actually the subject matter of my first book, Brand vs. Wild, where I studied uh, survival psychology and found a surprising amount of relevant links between how groups of people um, think, act to make decisions in survival situations. So you know, airplane crashes in the Andes or um, you know, you're on a boat in the middle of the ocean. Amazing links between how people think and act in those environments and boardrooms, um, in, in serious pivotal moments. So it's um, you know, you can pretend like modern, the modern world, you know, we're rational and we have all this data and we only make good decisions based on rationality. It's just not how people act. So there's a lot of links. So if you, if you know, human nature and you ha. And you're not trying to manipulate or do something wrong. Um, you, you can apply that knowledge to be more fruitful in business, you know.

Ashutosh Garg: My next question was about brand versus wild. But give, give me an example of how you've been able to implement this using your brand versus wild thinking.

Jonathan Lewis: Yeah, absolutely. Oh my goodness. There's so many interesting applications. So, uh, one of my favorite anecdotes is there's this great story of m, some uh, explorers who were exploring the Amazon river and they came to this juncture which one of many where they had to exit the river. Just way too rough, way too crazy. They had to exit the river and ferry their boats around this, this pretty rough spot. And to get out they had to climb these sheer cliffs. And um, it was very wet and very slippery. And if they fell, they died. Simple as that. And there's this moment where one of the, one of these river rafters, they're, they're climbing, they're kind of in the middle of the sheer face and they look down and immediately they get what they call sewing, uh, machine legs. This is very common in climbing scenarios. Sewing machine legs is where you freeze and you, you um, emotionally you cannot move and your legs start, start um, sort of moving up and down like a sewing machine. You're, you're like in this state of hyper shock. And it happens when you look down and this is, you're, if you're in a pivotal moment as a CEO or leadership team, you're trying to move from your old story to your new story. You're trying to shift your company into a new growth strategy. And looking down is looking back. It's, it's looking, it's, it's um, looking toward. You know, that takes faith. And those decisions take faith that there is a better future. That making hard decisions and taking some short term pain will lead to success in the future. If you look down, if you start to doubt yourself, if you start to just hyper focus on the risks you're taking rather than the future you're creating. Um, I see leadership teams all the time freeze and panic. And in, in that true story, what happened is another one of the river raptors had to climb next to them, talk them out of it. Hey, hey, hey. Everything's all right. Hey, pay attention to me. Pay attention. Listen to my voice. Don't look down. Just one step at a time. Move your arm up. Just move your hand to that next arm, you know, that next rock. And that's very similar to what we do sometimes is we're not doing anything for a client. Like we don't take over their agency or make decisions for them. We simply have climbed that sheer rock face many times and know that you can move forward, there is a future that's better and can coach people through that and help them get, get past those river efforts.

Ashutosh Garg: Amazing. Um, Jonathan, what are some of the most difficult conversations you have had with CEOs during a pivotal moment?

Jonathan Lewis: Oh my goodness. We there are good hard conversations and then have had some really bad hard conversations. Um, there's a very well, well known international brand that we worked with in the athletic space, athletic health space. Um founder, uh owned still at the time, this is a few years ago, that uh, was being out competed by sort of knockoffs, um, in, in our country and in others. And this, this um, founder, um was making decisions. The company was, was getting close to turnaround territory. Like it was getting pretty rough. And this founder was clinging to old paradigms, old decisions that, that really made him successful but were not working anymore. And his team was really suffering. I m mean I, I had his employees in my office crying, begging for me to talk to him, share some hard truths about the company. So uh, at one point I did and he uh, we had sort of a big meeting and he brought in his lawyer and his accountant, his personal advisors. And I'm sitting across the table like a, like a deposition or something. And I had to tell him like what you're doing is the wrong strategy. You are hurting your team. You have a short Runway. You maybe have 12 months if you don't make some serious decisions right now. M and I saw it in his eyes. Um, he, he started to tell a story that he had told me several times like over the last year or so. He just started telling this old story that kind of justified his decisions and didn't acknowledge what I was saying. And uh, shortly after that we parted ways. He did not want to hear the truth. He refused to hear it. Um, and the company went bankrupt about six months later. Um, that, that among many. It's sort of, it's hard to see how much self deception is possible, how you can lie to yourself and how you can continue hurting others. Maybe not intentionally but, but your decisions as a leader. Yeah, um, that's probably a more dramatic example.

Ashutosh Garg: M and that leads me to my next question. What does ego, what role does ego play? And I'm sure this client of yours, it was his ego which then wasn't letting him accept your inputs. But what role does ego Play installed growth and brand breakdown.

Jonathan Lewis: Ego. Is that, uh. And yes, uh, that's an interesting topic. Um, I mean, everything, um, pride blinds. We all have pride. Especially when you're talking about elite leaders, CEOs, and leadership teams. There's a lot of ego. What I've noticed is, uh, like, we, we don't even work with companies until they're humbled. So usually companies that eventually work with us, they've. They've tried it themselves for a while. They've often gone through several other advisors and they, we call them humbled owners with a D. Humbled. Um, they've been humbled by circumstance. When you're, when you're proud, you make terrible decisions. You often, you're. You often suffer in focus most you get distracted out of pride. You think you can do anything at any time. Um, you pursue growth at all costs. And so ego is important. It's also not something to be squashed. People need their swagger. And so often when we're working with companies, we work with companies that had swagger not too long ago. They really good, strong companies, but something's missing. Like some. They just don't have that genesis qua that they had, you know, a little bit while ago. So you people need pro. Healthy ego, I guess, healthy confidence. And that's part of, of what a leadership team does, is they restore that confidence. Um, but it is a tricky thing because you, you tip that confidence into pride, and that's your first step to failure. And if you, if you tip into, um, martyrdom or, you know, victimhood, that's another way to, to fail as well.

Ashutosh Garg: Very interesting. Uh, moving on, Jonathan. Uh, what distinguishes companies that survive disruption and those that collapse? Other than, of course, listening to Jonathan Lewis.

Jonathan Lewis: Yeah, of course, of course. Excellent question. Um, there you know who they are and they've. I think, I think of, uh, the Lindy effect, which is something that Nassim Taleb, uh, really is a proponent of. I think he, he dubbed it the Lindy effect is that you may not. If something has been around a while, just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't have an internal logic.

Ashutosh Garg: Yeah.

Jonathan Lewis: And I think of that. I think that's maybe the single most important test for a company is have you, have you stood the test of time? M. Not have you built and sold or have you stood the test of time? And standing the test of time requires all of these character traits. It's actually the reason I wrote the Rebuilders is leaders need character today. It requires character. And Long term thinking. M. That is really unusual. Um, and a level of maturity, um, that uh, leads to good and more fruit. So more profitability, more m. Longevity. Um, but it is hard to come by because uh, we're in sort of in a short term culture, a quick fix, make your buck business culture. Um, a lot of talk about exits and um, buying and selling and that's to that that's a fine, that has a role in the economy obviously but that's, that's not the core of most businesses. That's not the reason most people own businesses and run businesses. Um, it's really about helping your community bear fruit. Building um, a community, um, it's, it's livelihood and flourishing. And when you um, when you take your eye off of those long term goals and purposes of business itself, um, you, you get yourself into situations where you can lose it real fast and make bad decisions. And I think that's ultimately the difference.

Ashutosh Garg: Fascinating. Um, during a crisis, should leaders prioritize speed or precision in decision making?

Jonathan Lewis: Um, in a, in a real crisis it really depends on the crisis and it really depends on the company. Because if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're working with nuclear uh, technology, precision matters.

Narrator: Yes.

Jonathan Lewis: Um, but in probably in many business cases, speed, decisiveness and good enough quality of decision is far more important than perfection. Um, and ruminating and thinking too much. You need to get decisive again and get bad decisions will hurt you. But good enough decisions are, are totally acceptable in a crisis.

Ashutosh Garg: Well said. Well said. I have time for two more questions. Um, what lessons from survival psychology are the most applicable to business resilience?

Jonathan Lewis: Mhm. Know your know yourself and know your kind. So if you think that humans don't have a nature, you're lying to yourself. Humans m. Have demonstrated that they have a nature that you know, read a history book, it repeats, it is predictable. And if you try to out of pride or ego, um, make decisions that counter that nature or don't at least respect the nature of humans, uh, you, you will fail because. And that applies when your airplane crashes in the Andes and you, you immediately go into shock and you are completely disoriented and you forget basic things like uh, you know, use the sun and the shadows and to. To find north and you forget. But you, you're in a crisis, you forget yourself. That applies in that situation just as much as um, you know, CEO. This business is personal. You can pretend it's not, but business is absolutely personal. And in those situations where you need to change Your business model, you need to adjust your strategy. Maybe you need new leadership. Maybe you need personally to change, um, your role. Those, those, um, survival instincts and psychology, they kick in. And if you don't overcome and recognize what's going on, you can make some pretty poor decisions.

Ashutosh Garg: M Amazing. And my last question for you, as you look back, what would you say has been one of the most transformative engagements for your firm and what did it teach you about leadership?

Jonathan Lewis: There's been several. One, um, one that comes to mind is an organization, uh, called improve group. The CEO's name is Matt Proctor. They're a construction integration firm. And we, we started work with, working with them about 10 years ago, a decade when they were initially pivoting and changing their business model, going from really shelving consulting into integrating the entire built environment through design and construction. And what they, what they had recognized 10 years ago is that construction's broken. The industry is just about pushing risk onto other, other players. Nobody was thinking about the end user, very common in business. Nobody was worried about the end user. And um, it was the process itself across the industry was extremely disintegrated. And so they took responsibility for this in, you know, intractable problem. And they grew by 400%, uh, because of it. And so now we, we've partnered with them, we've been with them along their growth and it's opened up opportunities for us. So their success really became our success. And that I think is true in a lot of, if not all business. Um, and so Improve Group has, uh, been something we're very proud of being a part of. They, they did it, but we're proud of being, being there with them and proof that you are your customer. And when you, when you find one that is doing something special, um, if you stick with them through thick and thin, it can help you as well.

Ashutosh Garg: Great M response. And then, and on that note, Jonathan, I just want to say what a fascinating conversation this one has been for me. What's come out very, very loud and clear to me is that you and your firm, McKee Wall Work are uh, almost like the go to firm when there is a crisis. And that crisis could be, you know, in multiple forms, whether it's a transformation, whether it is, uh, you know, almost a bankruptcy or a chapter 11 coming up or something like a pivot for a brand strategy. We got some really interesting points from you. I'm sure my viewers and listeners will learn many new things from our conversation. Thank you again and good luck to you.

Jonathan Lewis: Thank you.

Narrator: Thank you for listening to the brand called you'd Videocast and Podcast, a platform that brings you knowledge, experience and wisdom of hundreds of successful individuals from around, um, the world. Do Visit our website, www.tbcy.in to watch and listen to the stories of many more individuals. You can also follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Just search for the brand called YouTube.