Traffic Times Conversion Equals Customers With Irwin Hau

1 - > SPEAKER_00: This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing. 2 - > Your insider guide to the strategies top marketers use to 3 - > crunch the competition. 4 - > Ready to unlock your business full potential. 5 - > Let's get started.

6 - > SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Best SEO podcast, 7 - > The Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing. 8 - > I am your guest host, Jeff Campbell, hosting here for the 9 - > first time today, as Matt is out of town traveling. 10 - > He'll be back soon. 11 - > I've got with me today Erwin Howe, who runs an agency down in 12 - > Melbourne, Australia.

13 - > SPEAKER_02: Hey, how are you going from Melbourne, Australia? 14 - > How's things? 15 - > SPEAKER_01: Excellent, excellent. 16 - > So, Erwin, you've been running Chromatics is the name of your 17 - > agency for 12 plus years.

18 - > You've racked up something north of 80 awards. 19 - > What does award-mitting award-winning actually mean in 20 - > for a digital agency in terms of your ability? 21 - > Is this reflective of your ability to deliver results for 22 - > your clients? 23 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100%.

24 - > Uh well, it's actually been uh 17. 25 - > I actually just did the, I was talking to someone. 26 - > Um, 17. 27 - > I didn't realize, no, no, we you said 12 plus, so 17 because it's 28 - > the spot.

29 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, 12, yeah, yeah, exactly, right? 30 - > SPEAKER_02: Um, I think award winning is on a couple levels. 31 - > Number one, look and feel. 32 - > I think when it comes to design, you know, there's a visual UI 33 - > side of things.

34 - > But I think what's more important is actually that UX 35 - > and like you said, the results side of things, like conversion, 36 - > really, at the end of the day, from what we do, because we 37 - > specialize in that and really understanding human behavior and 38 - > human psychology. 39 - > Because uh, yeah, if you can't make this one maths formula 40 - > work, what are you doing? 41 - > And that formula is traffic times conversion rate equals 42 - > customers. 43 - > And let's be honest, uh, people don't wake up going, oh, I want 44 - > new rankings.

45 - > They wake up going, hey, I want more sales, uh, I want more 46 - > phone calls, uh, more leads. 47 - > Yeah, that's all we're gonna do. 48 - > SPEAKER_01: Results, results is uh the objective, that's the 49 - > business goal. 50 - > 100%.

51 - > Yeah, uh, you know, we were talking before we got on the 52 - > podcast about how I was a customer of EWR and a listener 53 - > to this podcast, so it's kind of cool to be hosting the podcast 54 - > for the first time now. 55 - > But um, EWR, uh, our previous name of our company was eWeb 56 - > results, and that as a customer really appealed to me. 57 - > Like I'm I'm here to get results, that's why I'm hiring a 58 - > marketing company. 59 - > Um you said there's no manual, you said in your your comments 60 - > there's no manual for running a business.

61 - > What's the one mistake you see that agency owners make that you 62 - > had to learn the hard way yourself? 63 - > SPEAKER_02: Oh man, I there are so many uh angles, but uh to me, 64 - > if you don't practice what you preach, so the the thing I heard 65 - > the web agencies say is that I've got a bad website. 66 - > Oh, don't look at my website, but I'm gonna do some great work 67 - > for you, right? 68 - > That doesn't make sense, you know.

69 - > Your website is a reflection of your own work, and so if you 70 - > can't even do it for yourself, I don't care what you say, you 71 - > know, seeing is believing, and so just make sure you get 72 - > yourself right, make sure you're presenting yourself well, make 73 - > sure you spend your time investing into your, you know, 74 - > your your first impression, as we say. 75 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I absolutely I've seen how important that is 76 - > uh with with the changes that we've been through as an agency, 77 - > uh, where Matt took us from kind of a local service business 78 - > agency in Houston to you know a national kind of enterprise 79 - > level agency.

80 - > And that was all about what's on the website, the positioning, 81 - > how are we presenting ourselves? 82 - > As somebody who takes all the the inbound leads and and all 83 - > the phone calls coming in, uh absolutely saw the the you know, 84 - > you you get the type of clients that you're aiming for, and a 85 - > lot of that is is is what your website reflects. 86 - > Yeah, so to prior prior to um having your own agency, you 87 - > worked uh inside other ad agencies. 88 - > Uh, what what broke your brain the first when you uh getting 89 - > into the client work uh on the business side?

90 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100%. 91 - > So I used to work for Kleminger uh BBDO uh down here in 92 - > Melbourne, Australia, and George Hurst and Why Now, so the Y 93 - > Night Group, uh which everyone knows of the two agencies, Bob 94 - > White. 95 - > Uh rather than work for the man, I thought I'd be the man. 96 - > Uh, but mate, uh sometimes you realize I know you're wearing a 97 - > hat right now, but mate, the number of hats you wear, you've 98 - > got to do sales, you've got to do HR, you've got to do 99 - > marketing.

100 - > I'm I'm on the same guy who has to empty the bins, uh, as well 101 - > as debt collect at the same time, and hire and do sales and 102 - > make a website at the end of the day. 103 - > And I think you just don't realize you can't do everything. 104 - > That's where you need to build a great team. 105 - > But you need to understand that you've got to have good cash 106 - > flow as well.

107 - > You're gonna understand marketing and so well, that mind 108 - > uh blown moment was a utilization so no no regrets 109 - > though, having made that move. 110 - > SPEAKER_01: It was probably harder than you thought it was 111 - > gonna be. 112 - > And you probably and you probably thought it was gonna be 113 - > hard. 114 - > And did it end up being more difficult than you thought it 115 - > would be?

116 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, actually, for me, I think my 117 - > naivety of of business was actually my strength and the 118 - > fact that I think if I knew if you showed me what the future 119 - > would be like and how much pain I'd have to go through, uh in 120 - > the school hard knocks itself, I think I would have tapped out. 121 - > But I think I was like, oh, it can't be that bad, you know, 122 - > just make a website, sell website. 123 - > That's about it and stuff like that.

124 - > Yeah, and I think that naivety goes, like, yeah, that's that's 125 - > simple, right? 126 - > And so uh, like I said, my hair started here when I first 127 - > started the agency. 128 - > So I think this is a demonstration of just how much 129 - > uh hard work one swept and tears, yeah. 130 - > SPEAKER_01: So yeah, absolutely.

131 - > So so the we'll meet reality eventually, but the uh the 132 - > unfounded optimism is not a bad foundation to start off with 133 - > because you need you need that kind of optimism to launch into 134 - > any venture. 135 - > And if we knew what we were getting into, maybe we wouldn't 136 - > start, but um, you've done it, you built it, so that's that's 137 - > amazing. 138 - > That's um uh you're launching a SaaS while running an 139 - > established agency. 140 - > How do you think about productizing services versus 141 - > building software?

142 - > And why why are you getting into that right now? 143 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think if you actually look at 144 - > all the I mean, I was actually reading something about um uh 145 - > Mailchip. 146 - > Uh well no mailchip for the email uh SaaS that it is. 147 - > Um did you know that other agency back in the day and stuff 148 - > like that?

149 - > And then I that kind of got me thinking, oh, but what's the 150 - > backstory of all these different SaaSes and stuff? 151 - > And I realized that everyone used to be a website shop shop 152 - > somewhere in the in their lives, starting with websites. 153 - > That then turns into some digital marketing, or you know, 154 - > maybe be a specialist or journalist. 155 - > But then everyone realizes maybe the grass is green on the other 156 - > side, maybe it's not just running a service business.

157 - > Oh, what about product guys? 158 - > And then you know, SaaS kind of blew up, everyone loves SAS. 159 - > Let's get into SAS, you know, recurring revenue sounds 160 - > wonderful, and then away they go they they go uh into SaaS land. 161 - > But we actually started the SAS not because uh of that smart to 162 - > say do what I just said, it was actually we were solving our own 163 - > problem.

164 - > So, what had happened was we had created our own service-based 165 - > business, we gave lots of leads to our website, but you know 166 - > what? 167 - > I don't want leads, oh sorry, I don't want uh traffic, I want 168 - > phone calls. 169 - > Um, I don't want people to sort of look at my website. 170 - > I mean, you can give you a million impressions on my 171 - > website, or you know, I don't care what that time is, I need 172 - > phone calls, I need forms filled out so I can actually follow 173 - > them up.

174 - > And so we were testing this thing over seven years, tried 175 - > three two different variations across our website and client 176 - > websites, and we decided and found one method on converting 177 - > people faster and quicker. 178 - > Um, and we decided to productize it, and that's how Conversion 179 - > Cal came about. 180 - > So it was actually a product for myself, copy selfish, but I just 181 - > thought, hey, I want to help me and get that from Regan. 182 - > Then we did, and now we've actually turned it into a 183 - > product that anyone can use for less than a couple of days and 184 - > stuff like that.

185 - > I don't have a cup here, um, but we have a cup that says milk 186 - > your website and beef up your website for more leads, and 187 - > that's a heart. 188 - > Um, add our software to your to your website, and it's uh a 189 - > nice, quick, easy way to jack up those conversion weights. 190 - > True. 191 - > SPEAKER_01: So is is that a product that you use with active 192 - > clients who come on in your agency?

193 - > Are you oh 100%? 194 - > Yeah, adopt that as well, yeah. 195 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so now we've we've uh taken to the 196 - > point where number one's on our website, number two, it's 197 - > actually on the conversion cow website, conversion cow is on 198 - > conversion cow. 199 - > But because we're building websites and people go, Hey, 200 - > you've built me a really great website, we're getting lots of 201 - > traffic.

202 - > Are there any other tips and tricks, Erwin? 203 - > Um, and and everyone for and here's a big mistake that a lot 204 - > of customers make they think it's about spending more money 205 - > on marketing. 206 - > Well, let's do more SEO, more traffic, more. 207 - > I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

208 - > Do you realize that if you had a million people coming to you and 209 - > only like a couple of percent are getting through, your issue 210 - > isn't that you need two million people coming through. 211 - > Yeah, it's like your toilet's blocked. 212 - > We need to unplug this hole to get people through to your 213 - > telephone, and so that's where we really focused. 214 - > It's not about spending more SEO AdWords because I had one 215 - > client, 16,000 people per month visiting their website, and 216 - > they're like, we're gonna spend more.

217 - > I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 218 - > These AdWords, I mean, Google's really rich because they make 219 - > lots of money from AdWords. 220 - > Yeah, SEO agencies are uh raking it up because they're charging 221 - > lots, but for this particular client, they're still not 222 - > getting as many phone calls as they should be, and so all we 223 - > did was working on software and let's look at the data. 224 - > I think data, you know, we shouldn't be making uh guesses, 225 - > should look at the data, and we realized yeah, lots of people 226 - > come to your website.

227 - > There's no offer, no special, lack of call of actions, lack of 228 - > proof, no reason why someone should get in touch. 229 - > And our software did all of that in one shot, like that. 230 - > So why not? 231 - > SPEAKER_01: So that's a lot to do in one shot.

232 - > There must be a lot of inputs needed into the software from 233 - > the client when you're onboarding them. 234 - > How does that look? 235 - > How much information do they need to give you for that to 236 - > work? 237 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

238 - > It's actually not as tricky as you think. 239 - > So let's play a game and stuff. 240 - > If I was to engage with you, or actually think of it not like a 241 - > website, think of it like a first date, right? 242 - > Think of the best first date you've ever gone on.

243 - > There's only four questions you asked on that date. 244 - > Who are you? 245 - > What do you do? 246 - > Uh why should we go out and can I have your phone number?

247 - > They're exactly the same questions people will ask on a 248 - > in particular, service-based business, so professional 249 - > services, trade services, allied health services, right? 250 - > I know who you are, but I kind of want to know what you do in 251 - > more detail. 252 - > Can you prove that what you just said you're actually really good 253 - > at it? 254 - > Um, you know, with all this kind of testimonials, you know, 255 - > logos, all the usuals.

256 - > And then can I just have your phone number, like the details 257 - > at the end, uh, like that date. 258 - > But how many people miss these uh basics and stuff like that? 259 - > Who are you? 260 - > What do you do?

261 - > Why choose you? 262 - > How do you get in touch? 263 - > Actually, anyone who's listening, I challenge you to 264 - > almost take a pause, open up a new browser. 265 - > If you're driving, don't do that.

266 - > But open a browser, flick it on, look on your mobile, and just 267 - > see how quickly, not do you say it all over your website, people 268 - > are lazy, they've got a couple of seconds, but can you and do 269 - > you say who you are, what you do, why choose you, and how to 270 - > get in touch with you? 271 - > So your phone number, email, short, whatever it is, and maybe 272 - > a combination, because let's be honest. 273 - > If Jess, uh, if uh Jeff, if you're an extrovert and you want 274 - > to pick up the call, but I'm a bit of an introvert, I just want 275 - > to type a message, and I've got an email because I need an email 276 - > because I've got a whole brief as well.

277 - > Do you actually make it easy for people to get in touch? 278 - > And so the information we ask for is really we just ask those 279 - > four questions, and our tool literally lets you summarize it 280 - > all in one shot, one place, and we make it prominent all the 281 - > time so you can't even miss it on a website. 282 - > That's actually how simple it is. 283 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so some really some basic points of CRO that 284 - > you're getting locked down there, make it easy for people 285 - > to connect with you, make it easy for them to take the action 286 - > that you want them to take, which is reach out and connect.

287 - > So, what about the part of you know, nobody nobody wants to go 288 - > on a first date where the other person talks about themselves 289 - > the entire time? 290 - > What about that thing about resonating with customers and 291 - > their pain points? 292 - > And how do you think about that? 293 - > How do you approach that piece of the puzzle?

294 - > SPEAKER_02: So, so love it. 295 - > See, the problem is websites are static, it's the same message, 296 - > same way, every time. 297 - > If only there was a way to make your message dynamic and relate 298 - > to the person. 299 - > So, say the example, if someone clicked on an AdWords ad that 300 - > said, you know, I've got a problem with X, and when you 301 - > click on that ad, you go to the website.

302 - > I get it, you know, you send them to the right landing page 303 - > or the right page without problem. 304 - > But what if that page doesn't even have the exact details on 305 - > it? 306 - > Does that mean you have to pay 250 bucks or something per hour 307 - > to some guy to fix that page and what? 308 - > No, actually, so conversion count, what makes it so magical 309 - > is the message changes depending on how the customer interacts 310 - > with the website.

311 - > So, say for example, we have one client who's a plumber. 312 - > After hours, after 5:30 p.m., the message on his website 313 - > changes from go to general inquiry, give us a call, and 314 - > then here's our head office number to oh, it's after hours.

315 - > The only reason why you're looking is your toilet's busted, 316 - > or do you have an after hours emergency? 317 - > So the message instantly now changes to got an after-hour 318 - > hour emergency problem. 319 - > When you click it, it doesn't go to the head office phone number, 320 - > it now goes to Gary on his mobile number, and he'll come 321 - > out within 24 hours. 322 - > That to me is a great customer experience.

323 - > And I think Seth Golden said it the right message at the right 324 - > time to the right person equals a high conversion rate. 325 - > And the problem with I guess any website, CR is good for once-off 326 - > static, you've done an A-B test, but what if you could change the 327 - > message every time? 328 - > SPEAKER_01: No, that's that that's great. 329 - > Uh, so you give you mentioned kind of one vector and one 330 - > situation, uh, which is time of day for a plumber.

331 - > What are the other kind of signals that you would use to 332 - > change the message on the website? 333 - > Would it be the different ads that you're running, the 334 - > different language that's in the ads? 335 - > What else? 336 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh, another way to change it is uh we have 337 - > another client, uh actually, the same client, actually, the same 338 - > client, they realize that during the day, not everyone has a um 339 - > just wants to know uh the bottom of the final message, which is 340 - > his defendant.

341 - > How do we get them in the middle if they're kind of choosing 342 - > between two or three people? 343 - > We realize special offers and discounts help, especially with 344 - > trade businesses. 345 - > But if you come up with one offer, so you know, 10% off your 346 - > first service, right? 347 - > Well, what if I'm coming for the second time?

348 - > That doesn't qualify. 349 - > And so our software allows you to put, I'd say, three 350 - > discounts. 351 - > One's for the first time, one's for repeating customer, and one 352 - > is actually for a referring customer. 353 - > So your customer but referring to someone else, and that 354 - > message can change every month.

355 - > So this month, special, so exclusive discount offer for the 356 - > month of June, bang. 357 - > And you know what? 358 - > It's winter now, change it. 359 - > Oh, it's a different month, change it.

360 - > It's seasonal, change it. 361 - > And so we found that offers and specials are another great way 362 - > to engage someone because remember, we're here just to get 363 - > someone's attention and get that attention and turn it into 364 - > action of sorts and stuff. 365 - > So we use um uh sometimes it's testimonials and case studies, 366 - > that kind of gets you. 367 - > Sometimes it's a video, that's another method, could be dot 368 - > points, you know, clear messaging, answer the problem, 369 - > value of your company, um, discounts and specials, yeah, 370 - > it's a bit of everything.

371 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so all those discounts and special offers are 372 - > built into the platform, is that right? 373 - > Is that how it works? 374 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, well, you need to create the offer 375 - > firstly, but we can display the message of that offer. 376 - > Sure.

377 - > Um, and let's be honest, if you have some sort of you know, 378 - > tracking internally, when everyone calls up and says, hey, 379 - > you know, use Jeff 123 as the code, then you can also 380 - > attribute or attribute where that came from as well. 381 - > So attribution is also another one. 382 - > Uh, where do you that's so important? 383 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, very valuable, very valuable.

384 - > Always something that we're looking for is marketers. 385 - > How do we attribute, you know, which channels are doing the 386 - > work for us or doing the heavy lifting, are getting us the best 387 - > results? 388 - > Let's tell me a little bit now about uh as you built this SaaS. 389 - > Obviously, you've got you know customer, inbound customers 390 - > coming to your marketing agency that you can offer this product 391 - > to them.

392 - > How are you growing the product outside of that? 393 - > Just for you know, customers who are just SaaS-only customers. 394 - > Uh, tell me about that growth journey and how you were able to 395 - > build up your customer base for your product. 396 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, at the start, what I've actually 397 - > learned is you need proof.

398 - > You just need some proof. 399 - > So at the start, you do have to go. 400 - > So pretending you're on day one with no one. 401 - > Well, you need a couple of people to trust you to love you.

402 - > It just so happens we have an agency and a SAS, so we kind of 403 - > feed uh ourselves, you know, because I am my own perfect 404 - > target market and stuff like that. 405 - > And you want to kind of get your first, you know, couple of 406 - > clients, but you're not really trying to get the money, you're 407 - > trying to get the proof, the testimonials and the results, 408 - > and then you use that and then you build off of that to get 409 - > more customers and stuff.

410 - > So at the start, it's your inner circle and people who can feed. 411 - > And you might have some mates and people who run agencies, 412 - > you've got to work out who your sales channels or partners can 413 - > be, but then it gets to the next level after that, where you kind 414 - > of know people, you can either run ads, that's one side, or you 415 - > can do that kind of call stuff. 416 - > So call email, call calling, um, running your own outbound teams 417 - > and stuff.

418 - > And that's what we're kind of slowly building out as we're 419 - > just trying to perfect because that's the other thing. 420 - > When running a SAS, you need to nail, absolutely nail the crap 421 - > out of your ICP who is that absolute perfect profile person. 422 - > Because I'm not gonna lie, I used to be be the guy who did 423 - > what I said I shouldn't do. 424 - > Everyone's my customer, no, yes, not everyone's your customer.

425 - > No, yeah, some people are just more fruitful or more profitable 426 - > uh than others, and some people actually get more um uh banger 427 - > bang bang for their buck out of the software than others. 428 - > And so why go for just everyone when you can actually just go 429 - > for the absolute cream of the crop? 430 - > So for us, we worked out high traffic websites. 431 - > So you have a very high traffic website, then hey, you've 432 - > already got the people coming in, we just need to get them 433 - > through, right?

434 - > SPEAKER_01: You potentially high traffic, low conversion, though, 435 - > like high traffic, not getting the results that you want. 436 - > That sounds like a real pain point for yeah. 437 - > SPEAKER_02: So you're running AdWords campaigns, SEO, meta, 438 - > you know, all the paid ad stuff, or you maybe you're really good 439 - > with organic, you know, you might have a great podcast or a 440 - > great uh Instagram account or something. 441 - > You can pull people in, but that's all it is.

442 - > It's uh what do they say? 443 - > Likes is vanity, sales is sanity. 444 - > I don't care about you liking us, and that's it. 445 - > I want you to call us so we can actually turn that into to 446 - > business and something that where we can give value, and you 447 - > can actually see a result um that's financially beneficial.

448 - > SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so you you you had the proof before 449 - > scaling, yeah. 450 - > You know, because A, you're solving your own problem, and B, 451 - > you're going to your network first. 452 - > So you're not you're not just building an app and then 453 - > throwing a bunch of ads at it, you're building proving it, 454 - > you're getting feedback, and you're really understanding that 455 - > this is something that is going to be useful to people because 456 - > people are telling us that it's useful.

457 - > SPEAKER_02: Correct. 458 - > So we actually did a couple of tests and stuff, and we actually 459 - > just uh we got nominated for a award here uh recently. 460 - > Um, and in the interview process for the award, they said, show 461 - > us methodically how you proved it. 462 - > So first one was we built it for ourselves.

463 - > Did it actually uh impact uh our results? 464 - > So it did. 465 - > Great. 466 - > Now, did you implement on someone else's one and did it 467 - > show results?

468 - > It did. 469 - > But then we thought, wait a minute, I said at the very 470 - > beginning this formula traffic times conversion rate equals 471 - > customers. 472 - > And we realized there's an increase in customers or phone 473 - > calls, maybe you're like website leads, we'll call, right? 474 - > Uh can you close it or not?

475 - > That's that's another story. 476 - > But where are we getting the phone calls? 477 - > But then we realized, wait a minute, if we did a little bit 478 - > of conversion, but we just did more traffic, it would also 479 - > affect that number. 480 - > So we then had to do another test where we kind of kept the 481 - > traffic number as as even as possible.

482 - > So don't spend more money on AdWords or warn SEO or other 483 - > channels. 484 - > But could you tell with conversion count and without 485 - > conversion count that there was a jump? 486 - > And so we ran it on uh particular clients. 487 - > This one client I'm thinking of, this was their result before, 488 - > after it actually jumped up and we doubled and stuff like that.

489 - > So we're like, mate, that's all we needed, and it was actually 490 - > doing the same period within what we'll call it a Jan to 491 - > March period. 492 - > We could attribute it. 493 - > Hey, I think we're on the right path and stuff, and so then away 494 - > you go. 495 - > And so you start collecting testimonials, um uh feedback, 496 - > you start building case studies, and then you use the case 497 - > studies to then sell what you do.

498 - > Because remember, no one cares that you make websites or you 499 - > have software or you do ads, they don't care what you do, 500 - > they want to buy the result of what you do, and so yes, yes, 501 - > absolutely. 502 - > SPEAKER_01: That's so you you you mentioned kind of the the 503 - > ideal customer being high traffic, low conversions, 504 - > because that's a problem that you can help fix. 505 - > That's one of three. 506 - > Yep.

507 - > Yeah, that's okay, okay. 508 - > What the other two? 509 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so the first one was actually high traffic, 510 - > low conversion. 511 - > Second is you actually care about lead generation.

512 - > I know it sounds funny, but some people have high traffic, but 513 - > they go, I don't need the front ring, like we're fine, you know. 514 - > You actually have to care about lead generation. 515 - > So we found trade businesses, uh sorry, trade services, health 516 - > services like Allied Health, like you know, um opt on physio, 517 - > all the usuals, um, professional services, uh, and also what I 518 - > call family entertainment services. 519 - > Services are like you know, escape rooms to you know, you 520 - > know, golf places, right?

521 - > All these services, they have high traffic because they need 522 - > lots of people. 523 - > They care about region, that's why they're spending money on 524 - > marketing, and they can't um they're not re you just want a 525 - > lot of a lot of repeat. 526 - > I think that's the other one. 527 - > Yeah, um, one, two, and the third one as the absolute golden 528 - > if you get all three, if they're high value clients, so uh 529 - > dental, property, building, construction, that kind of 530 - > stuff.

531 - > So if you have lots of traffic, you care about those leads, and 532 - > if you close one client, you can suddenly like 10x, you know, 533 - > whatever your spend was, away you go. 534 - > And so, in fact, you have one client. 535 - > Um, I can't really say what they do, let's just say they're in 536 - > the they're in the tech industry, they're a 537 - > manufacturer. 538 - > One sale for them is 10 grand.

539 - > Lots of traffic, they need lots of leads because they want to 540 - > sell a lot of them, and one of these bits of machinery is 10 541 - > grand a pot. 542 - > Our software's less than a coffee a day, you know. 543 - > I think it's like three, five grand, you know, that sort of 544 - > thing. 545 - > Yeah, yeah.

546 - > One and that's annually, so it's a once off annual, it's like say 547 - > five grand, right? 548 - > You've got my software for five for one year. 549 - > He closed it, he got he he wrote $52,000 worth of sales in 10 550 - > days. 551 - > SPEAKER_01: It's already paid for itself, yeah.

552 - > SPEAKER_02: He he closes one, he's already paid for my 553 - > software in spades and stuff, and he was absolutely chuffed. 554 - > I'm like, I've done my part. 555 - > He felt really bad that I've already made this much money out 556 - > of the whole. 557 - > I'm like, that's the point of the so the service, right?

558 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mean those those those high ticket, 559 - > those high-ticket businesses, absolutely uh excellent. 560 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, you'd actually look at yeah, yeah. 561 - > SPEAKER_01: Sorry. 562 - > Some of the some of the ones you mentioned, the um uh kind of the 563 - > family entertainment ones are ones where you know you 564 - > mentioned like uh escape rooms, things like that.

565 - > They have you know a set number of bookings that they're trying 566 - > to fill, and what you know, unless they build a second room, 567 - > like they're they're booked up, right? 568 - > So their thing is just fill our calendar all throughout time. 569 - > How do you handle that kind of flow flow of demand? 570 - > SPEAKER_02: Love it, love it.

571 - > Okay, you're right. 572 - > Escape rooms, cinemas, pop, you know, axe throwing, whatever, 573 - > whatever the thing is, there's a set limit, but this is what 574 - > we've worked out. 575 - > There are so many dead times. 576 - > So, so there's there's time periods where people just don't 577 - > go.

578 - > So there's a skating rink here. 579 - > I'm thinking to myself, no one's skating in the morning from 580 - > seven to nine, right? 581 - > Or I might not be skating uh you know really late or really early 582 - > or some after lunch or before lunch and something. 583 - > So I talked about those discount offers and specials.

584 - > We're calling happy hours, right? 585 - > Yeah, why don't you push different ideas, try A-B test 586 - > with the software as well, and try to fill all the dead times. 587 - > So don't give discounts to the times that are nice and happy, 588 - > you know, and fruitful. 589 - > Fill those ones, and so it's a great method to try to fill the 590 - > box.

591 - > It's actually not as full as you think it is, it's only full when 592 - > it's popular during, you know, after dinner, nighttime, 593 - > weekends, that sort of thing. 594 - > But we get those Mondays to Thursdays really backed up and 595 - > booked up. 596 - > So yeah. 597 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's interesting in different 598 - > different industries, the things that drive demands.

599 - > One of the projects that uh EWR helped me out with when I was 600 - > sitting on the client side of the table was uh uh marketing 601 - > industrial generators uh for backup power. 602 - > Mult multiple scenarios, but one of the scenarios in the States 603 - > was you know, a hurricane comes rolling in, and all of a sudden 604 - > there's new demand, you know, after the storm blows through, 605 - > there's a lot of power outages, there's big demand. 606 - > And what worked really nicely on that situation was that we had 607 - > campaigns that we could turn on and off regionally, depending on 608 - > where you know, the storms don't always hit in the same place, 609 - > but in conjunction with the uh the people on the ground who 610 - > were, you know, sort of getting the equipment into the area in 611 - > advance of a storm, you know, combined with the logistics 612 - > people on the ground preparing for the situation, along with 613 - > our marketing, we were able to absolutely max out the entire 614 - > fleet, and so much so that the uh competitors were coming to 615 - > us.

616 - > So, you know, it's interesting when you when and those are 617 - > unpredictable situations, but when you can prepare for the ups 618 - > and downs of things, you know, and having something in place in 619 - > advance to you know turn on the switch to take, you know, take 620 - > advantage of the demand when it appears uh in an unpredictable 621 - > situation. 622 - > That that was kind of an interesting uh thing that uh 623 - > Matt and the team had come up with when I was working on the 624 - > other side of the table.

625 - > Yeah, it was really interesting. 626 - > Let's let's jump in now to um the human psychology and 627 - > persuasion discussion. 628 - > That's something that you've expressed interest in. 629 - > How does that actually show up in the way that you build 630 - > websites or the way that you run campaigns?

631 - > Do you have a specific example of how you leverage that type of 632 - > thinking? 633 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's just really, I mean, we just did 634 - > a website for a uh company. 635 - > Uh unfortunately, in the age, I can't say the exact name, but 636 - > they're in property, they do high-year luxury property. 637 - > Um, one build could be like two million dollars plus, right?

638 - > That kind of stuff, right? 639 - > Yeah, so it's not small. 640 - > You see, we all uh say if I have three cars, a Mazda, a Mercedes, 641 - > a Maserati, they're all forwards of the steering wheel, but each 642 - > one attracts a different type of user and different type of 643 - > buyer. 644 - > And I think we need to realize the way we design our websites 645 - > actually uh it's like this the bait, right?

646 - > The different type of bait catches a different fish. 647 - > We just need to know who we're attracting, and we need to also 648 - > make it look in a certain way to match accordingly because a 649 - > Mazda person isn't going to want until you know to buy a 650 - > Maserati, and a Maserati person doesn't want it to look like a 651 - > Mazda, so it's just really making sure that you've got the 652 - > right look to uh persuade or presuade someone, and persuasion 653 - > is the word from uh Dr.

654 - > Robert Chaudini uh from his book. 655 - > Uh persuasion, yeah, absolutely. 656 - > Yep. 657 - > You can actually influence someone, yeah.

658 - > You can actually influence someone prior to engagement, and 659 - > so if I look high-end, if I look uh um established, then I kind 660 - > of know that I'm gonna be spending a bit more money. 661 - > But we have high-end builders who look cheap and they wonder 662 - > why they can't convince people to sign on the double line 663 - > because it's like, well, you're not attracting the right people 664 - > because you don't look like it. 665 - > Does it does that make sense?

666 - > Yeah, so you kind of just need to make sure that everything 667 - > aligns, so yeah, we we attract uh whatever we put out. 668 - > SPEAKER_01: So yeah, the the look of a website is the look of 669 - > a website is absolutely a trust factor. 670 - > I I've got uh friends in in business who who are you know 671 - > selling a very high-end product, but their website is something 672 - > they built themselves. 673 - > And I'm I'm like, guys, you you you are really doing yourself a 674 - > disservice, you know, they've got some kind of uh software 675 - > installed that shows them, you know, on the back end who's 676 - > visiting their website, and they're seeing you know some 677 - > very high-value customer, you know, potential customers come 678 - > around, but they're not converting because they haven't 679 - > taken the time to 100% create something trustworthy.

680 - > SPEAKER_02: We we did this fun test, actually. 681 - > Um, and so so anyone who's listening, play along. 682 - > Think about your business just for a moment, your own business, 683 - > whatever it is, and how would you rate your business out of 684 - > 10? 685 - > Okay, so you're in terms of you know how professional you are, 686 - > your service, your quality, your aftermarket, so whatever it is 687 - > and stuff, rate it out of 10.

688 - > Think of a number, it's like a magic trick. 689 - > Think of a number. 690 - > You've got a number, okay. 691 - > Whatever number you have in your head that represents your 692 - > business, throw it in the bin.

693 - > It doesn't matter what you think, it's what the customer 694 - > thinks. 695 - > So, and the only way your customer is gonna tell what your 696 - > business or how good your business is, is they're just 697 - > gonna look at what's out there in the public, right? 698 - > So unless I rock up to your office, talk to your staff, look 699 - > at your show, whatever, which I'm not gonna do, by the way, 700 - > because I have no idea who you are first. 701 - > I'm just gonna do my due diligence first.

702 - > And it's gonna be your website. 703 - > That's gonna be the first point of call. 704 - > So if you said, and you're listening to this podcast, and 705 - > you gave your own business an eight and a half out of ten, but 706 - > I'd look at your website and I read the basics, like we said 707 - > before. 708 - > Who are you, what do you do, why should I choose you, how to get 709 - > in touch?

710 - > And I also look at it from what I call a heart perspective and a 711 - > head perspective. 712 - > So the heart is the emotional stuff. 713 - > So did it look good, is it nice, is it does it make it feel 714 - > whatever, with the words as well, right? 715 - > Words and pictures.

716 - > Did it feel right? 717 - > And rationally, does it show me? 718 - > And you said the keyword, trust, trust and authority. 719 - > So if it felt right, and it also reads right and mentally matches 720 - > up, and you go, Yeah, actually, that looks like an eight and a 721 - > half as well, then well done.

722 - > But my question is you just gave your own business a number. 723 - > I'm gonna ask you and challenge you right now, open your website 724 - > and show uh a potential customer and say, How would you rate the 725 - > business or this business out of 10 just based on the website? 726 - > And can I tell you there are more websites out there that 727 - > have a lower rating and a perception than what your actual 728 - > business is? 729 - > And perception and reality are uh are actually the same in the 730 - > customer's mind, and so we're dealing with customers all the 731 - > time who go, Oh, don't look at my website, it's really bad.

732 - > But oh, we're really good service. 733 - > And I'm like, your website says four out of ten, you say you're 734 - > eight out of ten. 735 - > How's the customer meant to go? 736 - > You're actually paying people off yourself, yeah.

737 - > SPEAKER_01: And then and then and then like don't even get 738 - > into the messaging, you know, where there'll be a lot of 739 - > vagueness, you know, like helping businesses scale 740 - > through, you know, honing uh customer service excellent 741 - > excellence. 742 - > I'm like, what is that? 743 - > Everybody's trying to everybody's trying to do that, 744 - > you know. 745 - > That's that doesn't tell me anything about what you do as a 746 - > business.

747 - > That's one thing we we see so much is that within that 748 - > seven-second window that we have to tell people who we are, what 749 - > we do, a lot of times the message just isn't there in a 750 - > clear way. 751 - > SPEAKER_02: And I think you even hit on the head there with the 752 - > messaging. 753 - > Uh, how many people use the word uh you know, we are effective, 754 - > successful, we like what do these words even mean? 755 - > You know, like like let's let's just get straight to the point, 756 - > you know.

757 - > Who are you, what do you do straight away. 758 - > You know, we help whoever solve this problem so you get this 759 - > result. 760 - > That's it, that's all people want, not some oh hi uh da da 761 - > da, you know, too long did not read. 762 - > Um, we just want to make it short and steady.

763 - > SPEAKER_01: So yeah, absolutely. 764 - > So on your site, you say that you've been involved in uh doing 765 - > some illusion work with cards. 766 - > How does tell me about that and how does how does what 767 - > principles from that inform or carry over into the marketing 768 - > realm? 769 - > Anything?

770 - > Yeah, is there a connection there? 771 - > SPEAKER_02: No, no, I absolutely absolutely I think the other the 772 - > thing is magic and marketing are no different. 773 - > It's it's the understanding of human psychology and how people 774 - > think, and you can actually well in magic, it's you you use it 775 - > for entertainment purposes. 776 - > In marketing, you're here to make someone do something.

777 - > So, as an example, right now, if I was to make a say a pen dis uh 778 - > appear, this pen appears out of nowhere, right? 779 - > If you actually get rid of it, it actually just disappears, 780 - > right? 781 - > How did I do it? 782 - > I understand how you look and where you look, I can control 783 - > your attention.

784 - > And so, as an example, if I was to make that pen appear and I 785 - > was to make it flick out, it's only because it's been here all 786 - > the time. 787 - > It's just like if I turn my hand this way, I know you can't see 788 - > it. 789 - > So I can control your attention because I know my angles very 790 - > well, and I can actually bring it out and I can actually pull 791 - > it back in slowly like this quickly, right? 792 - > So that's just using you know um magic and manipulation.

793 - > But what I learned from doing that for 20 odd years was that I 794 - > can control someone's attention and make them do something. 795 - > So if I was waving my hand up here, you're looking up here, 796 - > but you're not looking down here. 797 - > That's magic, right? 798 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.

799 - > SPEAKER_02: So let's use the same psychology. 800 - > If we have this thing that's flashing on the side on your 801 - > website, I know you're looking here and not here, right? 802 - > Again, I'm not here to steal your wallet, take you, you know, 803 - > take a card or make a little bunny appear. 804 - > I want you to look here because that's the call to action, and 805 - > that's just some random picture of, in this case, a little cow 806 - > there, right?

807 - > I want you to look here. 808 - > That's how we use human psychology and I guess it's kind 809 - > of magic thinking in websites. 810 - > SPEAKER_01: So not not not trickery, not not trying to fill 811 - > people, but directing attention, creating focus on the thing that 812 - > is the most critical to help people make a decision. 813 - > SPEAKER_02: 100% solve their problem.

814 - > Yeah, and I think it just it just helped me to realize it uh 815 - > to another level, and it was able to demonstrate in front of 816 - > an interesting way as well. 817 - > SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah, absolutely. 818 - > Uh, you had this quote that uh you like to make the complex 819 - > simple and the simple beautiful. 820 - > Where do you see people, clients, customers, uh 821 - > overcomplicating things in their approach to their marketing?

822 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, people treat their sales pitch, their 823 - > proposals, but mainly their website as if it's the full 824 - > movie. 825 - > What do I mean? 826 - > Your website is meant to be like a movie teaser. 827 - > It's 15 seconds of the best bits because my attention span is 828 - > this short.

829 - > Tell me what's the top level summary. 830 - > It's like a blurb of a book, right? 831 - > I just want to know. 832 - > I'm not gonna read the whole book, I just want to find out 833 - > what's it generally about.

834 - > People are skimmers, not swimmers, they scan. 835 - > So, and once you're interested, that's when you swim through it, 836 - > you read everything. 837 - > Websites are too convoluted, people treat them like 838 - > encyclopedias, and they put two hours of the of everything into 839 - > it. 840 - > People don't care.

841 - > Make your messages simple, put in just the best bits and treat 842 - > your movie, your website like a movie teaser, because if they 843 - > like it, they're gonna watch the trailer. 844 - > And what's the trailer? 845 - > The trailer is actually the salesperson who does the pitch 846 - > because they're gonna take the basics and they've got to 847 - > elaborate a little bit more, but they're not gonna give you 848 - > everything, you've got to pay for the ticket now to see the 849 - > movie itself.

850 - > And if you want that, that happens after I give you a 851 - > proposal. 852 - > You sign on the dollar line, bang, let's give you the full 853 - > service, and that's the movie, that's the full two hours. 854 - > So try to shove that all at the start, no one cares. 855 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's interesting.

856 - > You know, the teaser is uh, you know, the job of the teaser is 857 - > often to to pique curiosity, it's to make me think, hey, what 858 - > is this? 859 - > This looks interesting. 860 - > I don't know what it is, but I want to know more. 861 - > It looks like it's got potential, and then the trailer 862 - > is like, oh, it's gonna set the expectation.

863 - > This is gonna be amazing, it's gonna be entertaining, it's 864 - > gonna be worth the watch, kind of thing. 865 - > Uh, you know, some trailers seem to go overboard where you're 866 - > like, Well, I watched the trailer, I feel like I've 867 - > already seen the whole movie because there's so much into the 868 - > trailer, right? 869 - > SPEAKER_02: I I pick I picture my my daughters uh at Costco. 870 - > Uh they love going to Costco.

871 - > Why? 872 - > Because of the days where they do the samples, all right? 873 - > But do you notice the samples are always they're not huge 874 - > pieces, they're like little bite-sized, broken up sections. 875 - > Why?

876 - > They just want to hook you in with that little bit just to get 877 - > you interested. 878 - > Hey, but if you want more, you know, the full the full bottles 879 - > over there, you know, if you want to have a full, you know, a 880 - > full drink, but here's a little sip, right? 881 - > They're not gonna serve the whole drink, and they serve the 882 - > whole drink, you'll never buy the thing. 883 - > That's what our website needs to be like.

884 - > So let's have simple websites. 885 - > Less is more, as they say, and let's be honest, a lot of people 886 - > say, I'll just put it on your home page. 887 - > No, no, let's just put it on the home page, but at the very top, 888 - > because not everyone's gonna go through the whole website, top 889 - > to bottom. 890 - > They're just gonna hit that first frame, make a couple of 891 - > quick decisions, they're either in or they're out.

892 - > That's it. 893 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then I think about um, you know, word 894 - > of mouth, word of mouth being kind of in my mind, one of the 895 - > peak achievements you can have in marketing. 896 - > Like, if you can get busy with just people sending their 897 - > friends to you, and you never need to advertise again because 898 - > you get all the business you want through referrals, that's 899 - > ideal state, right? 900 - > Like, that's where you want to be.

901 - > I remember even being in Costco and having tried some products 902 - > that I really liked, and somebody was talking to the rep 903 - > about it, and I'm walking by and I'm like, that's really good. 904 - > Buy it, like I, you know, like you know, I'm sure the product 905 - > great group's like, Thank you, buddy, for you know, giving me 906 - > this recommendation, but I wouldn't do that if I didn't 907 - > really think it was a great product, you know, and and and 908 - > those testimonials, what other people are saying about you 909 - > online on your website, sharing that can be such a valuable 910 - > confirmation because of course we're gonna say our product and 911 - > service is amazing, but what are other people saying about us?

912 - > Because that's that's the real message there. 913 - > 100%. 914 - > SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's that's that's growth hacking. 915 - > If you can actually get to the point where your customers are 916 - > actually sharing what you do, doing that word of mouth and 917 - > stuff.

918 - > I mean, that that's that's the golden, that's a golden goose 919 - > right there. 920 - > Absolutely. 921 - > SPEAKER_01: So as far as marketing channels go, what 922 - > what's the one channel or tactic that you would say most 923 - > businesses are kind of sleeping on right now that they should be 924 - > looking into more deeply? 925 - > SPEAKER_02: Oh, it depends where you are in your business.

926 - > So that's a that's a that's uh let me break down what I just 927 - > told a client just recently. 928 - > If you're looking for instant leads right now, like I just 929 - > need my French ring, but you have to pay to play, that's the 930 - > problem. 931 - > It's really just AdWords, you know. 932 - > We find that you know things like AdWords, you know, because 933 - > your intent to buy is I mean, you're not gonna type in you 934 - > know web design in, you know, wherever you are, if you're not 935 - > looking for web designer, or not looking for lawyer Melbourne if 936 - > I'm not looking for a lawyer in Melbourne, you know, sort of 937 - > thing.

938 - > And so we find that AdWords is great if you want some quick 939 - > instant ones. 940 - > I find a lot of people aren't really investing into um the 941 - > what I call AI search side of things. 942 - > Uh AI, or AI is big, this and that, but people are treating 943 - > now ChatGPT and all those searches and clauds and so forth 944 - > as search engines and making decisions and actually believing 945 - > it as gospel. 946 - > Um, you do know that AI doesn't think for itself, it just takes 947 - > information that's up in the world to summarise it for you.

948 - > Yeah, um, but I find that people aren't investing as much into 949 - > that side of things as much as they really should. 950 - > Um, still doing SEO, that's important, but doing this is 951 - > actually still, in my eyes, just SEO, but just more of it. 952 - > Um yes, absolutely. 953 - > SPEAKER_01: We we we are very much um, you know, I'm always 954 - > asking people when they come in on a sales call, you know, first 955 - > question, how did you find us?

956 - > Because we want to know what channels are working. 957 - > And more and more we're hearing uh, you know, we found you on 958 - > cloud, we found you on ChatGPT, we found you on Gemini, whatever 959 - > channel they're using. 960 - > And they're also interested in how do we get found on those 961 - > channels, which is something that uh that Matt is uh 962 - > absolutely uh pursuing aggressively. 963 - > We've got uh something we call the LLM visibility stack, which 964 - > is uh a way of architecting your information.

965 - > You know, it used to be kind of just your website and then maybe 966 - > your Google Business profile and a few other channels, but now 967 - > it's you know architecting your information across a whole lot 968 - > of surfaces, as we call it, uh, to get indexed by these LLMs. 969 - > There, there's a whole new game that's really an extension of 970 - > SEO, and it's an extension of you know providing the 971 - > information that when people are in the deep research phase, you 972 - > know, if if you're looking for a restaurant, you know, the the 973 - > the Google stars is good enough for reviews.

974 - > You know, it's got 4.7. 975 - > Okay, good enough. 976 - > I don't need to do deep research on this.

977 - > If you're looking for a big ticket purchase, then there's 978 - > going to be a deeper research phase. 979 - > And that's where the AI surge can come into it. 980 - > And certainly on the B2B side, uh the that deep research is 981 - > part of you know, those longer bind cycles, that those, you 982 - > know, that deep uh research process. 983 - > So absolutely uh AI is kind of the new thing, still still being 984 - > defined, but you know, we always say a good solid SEO foundation, 985 - > you know, is the key starting point for opening in AI search.

986 - > Yeah, it's it's the it's the core for sure. 987 - > Um, you also have a thing of uh you're involved in mentoring 988 - > youth. 989 - > What's the one thing that you would tell young people who want 990 - > to build something in the digital space today? 991 - > What advice would you give them?

992 - > SPEAKER_02: Oh, give it a crack. 993 - > Just just I mean, you have every tool. 994 - > I mean, imagine what I mean. 995 - > The fact that you have AI, we're talking about you know, Chip T, 996 - > Claude, and so forth.

997 - > The fact that you can almost speak into existence as such a 998 - > product that back in the day you'd have to sit there, 999 - > program, and and you know, I was watching a guy today making a 1000 - > mascot, you know, for or design uh for their company. 1001 - > Um, literally was like, make me a mascot, that's a da da da 1002 - > enter. 1003 - > Like, yeah, you don't need those skills anymore. 1004 - > We used to be, oh, how do I find the graphics designer?

1005 - > Uh how much I it's just enter, done, it's and it's so simple. 1006 - > So give it a crack. 1007 - > You have nothing to lose, really. 1008 - > And if you can have if you can find the time to spend time on 1009 - > Netflix and stuff like that.

1010 - > You can definitely have time to start something. 1011 - > So I always say just give it a go. 1012 - > The biggest thing for me is there's no such thing as fail. 1013 - > Fail stands for first attempted learning, and we are all here 1014 - > learning something.

1015 - > It just so happens that I've forgotten what it feels like to 1016 - > do it for the first time because that was a good 25 uh 30 years 1017 - > ago and stuff like that. 1018 - > So it's really give it a go, build up as much experience as 1019 - > you can, uh, keep it a crack and stuff, and all in. 1020 - > So yeah. 1021 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.

1022 - > And you know, the the thing with especially young folks, a lot of 1023 - > times they're the consumer of different entertainment 1024 - > platforms. 1025 - > And so they they might start off thinking, like, oh, let's build 1026 - > the next Spotify or the next entertainment-based platform. 1027 - > Whereas, you know, getting more into the B2B world, if you have 1028 - > exposure to some particular industry through family, through 1029 - > work experience, whatever, those those are niches that are just 1030 - > full of uh opportunities when you have a little bit more 1031 - > extended understanding into a specialized world of some kind.

1032 - > I just see a ton of opportunities there as well. 1033 - > SPEAKER_02: So I've been saying to some people, stop consuming, 1034 - > start creating, right? 1035 - > So stop being the consumer, be the creator. 1036 - > Second, put in your 10,000 hours, so putting the effort, 1037 - > just give a crap.

1038 - > Number three, you don't count the first 100 hours, you know, 1039 - > sort of like whatever you do, stop judging yourself. 1040 - > I'm gonna tell you right now, if you want to see the future, 1041 - > you're gonna be crap at whatever you start. 1042 - > You're gonna be horrible at it. 1043 - > So I've just started uh playing golf, I'm horrible at it, and 1044 - > I'm not gonna judge myself because I'm not gonna be Tiger 1045 - > Woods in overnight.

1046 - > Even Tiger Woods himself took time to get to where he was and 1047 - > stuff like that. 1048 - > Though he's naturally talented, and I'm not naturally talented, 1049 - > so don't beat yourself up. 1050 - > Know that everyone started in the same place, and the only 1051 - > regret we have is if we just don't start. 1052 - > So no matter how old you are, where you are, do it.

1053 - > SPEAKER_01: Start, put put offers out there, let the market 1054 - > tell you. 1055 - > Because you might think, oh, I've got a great idea. 1056 - > Well, build your minimum viable product, get it out there, and 1057 - > let the market tell you if it's a great idea or not. 1058 - > The market's pretty ruthless with its feedback.

1059 - > Well, actually, that's good. 1060 - > That's good. 1061 - > SPEAKER_02: You know, well, feedback. 1062 - > Let me just talk about that one because that's something we 1063 - > learned in conversion card.

1064 - > Feedback is not I created so I I created this, right? 1065 - > Feedback is not, hey Jeff, is this good? 1066 - > And you say yes or no. 1067 - > That's not feedback.

1068 - > That's especially if it's especially if it's nice, yeah. 1069 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, especially especially your friends and 1070 - > family, they're gonna tell you, yeah, that's great, it'll work, 1071 - > do it because they're trying to support you. 1072 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let me tell what tell you what feedback 1073 - > truly is. 1074 - > Feedback is will you give me money for this?

1075 - > Because you vote with your dollars. 1076 - > So if you will actually physically pay me for this, and 1077 - > you know the difference between charity, it's like, oh yeah, 1078 - > Erwin, yeah, great, yeah, sure. 1079 - > Yeah, that's that's that's that's the wrong feedback. 1080 - > Yeah, it's someone who has no idea who you are that you're 1081 - > able to convince in seconds with whatever your pitches really 1082 - > fast, and if they go, yep, I want to take one, I think you're 1083 - > onto something, and then just scale that.

1084 - > But if you because I had people who are like, Oh, what do you 1085 - > think of this? 1086 - > They're like, Oh, it's the best thing, wonderful, yeah, love it. 1087 - > When we developed our products, we then said, Okay, well, well, 1088 - > you said you love it, you get to be our first foundation clients, 1089 - > and it cost this. 1090 - > Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, okay, well, now I have to pay 1091 - > for it.

1092 - > Okay, no, no, no, really, no, what was it that you do again? 1093 - > Let me and I was like, You're just giving me lip service. 1094 - > No, I'm not saying that in a rude way, I'm just saying that I 1095 - > I really am asking you to just tell me honestly, would you pay 1096 - > for it? 1097 - > And I'm gonna make you pay for it.

1098 - > That's how you actually work out if it's actually good or bad. 1099 - > So you vote with your dollars, see if you can do that. 1100 - > Not a sound, I'm not saying sell a million of them, just get that 1101 - > off for the MVP. 1102 - > SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, I think that's that's great advice 1103 - > because the market, you know, is not sentimental, it'll just tell 1104 - > you.

1105 - > No, it's brutal. 1106 - > Absolutely brutal. 1107 - > Is the thing that you created, is the thing you created. 1108 - > Like, does that make me feel better and feel like my problems 1109 - > are solved?

1110 - > Does that feel better having that thing you're offering than 1111 - > having the money in my pocket? 1112 - > Because it's gonna, I've gotta be convinced that me spending 1113 - > money on your thing is gonna make my situation better 1114 - > substantially before I follow that credit card. 1115 - > SPEAKER_02: And can I just put it out there? 1116 - > Just you just remind me of another conversation I had with 1117 - > another youth.

1118 - > There is a time to tap out as well. 1119 - > It's not bad, you you're not a failure for tapping out, like 1120 - > not every business. 1121 - > I mean, if I had a list of how many business ideas I've had, uh 1122 - > mate, I'd I'd fill a whole stadium. 1123 - > It's some are actually made to fail because you didn't fail, 1124 - > you failed because you're mentally going, I'm not a 1125 - > billionaire by now.

1126 - > What you gained was actually experience on what not to do and 1127 - > how to improve, or you've got a network, or you learn 1128 - > technology, or it's it's it's that that's what you gain. 1129 - > So if you always just think it's about money, then I promise you, 1130 - > most of us are all failures, you know, as such, but it's the 1131 - > journey you have to enjoy because this journey is about 1132 - > collecting gems and insights and things that are going to grow 1133 - > you.

1134 - > Because if you asked me, and I went, I'm gonna take you back to 1135 - > when you were 28 when you first started chromatics, your first 1136 - > agency, because I'm 45 now, right? 1137 - > If you went back to the start, would you want to go back? 1138 - > Because everyone wants to you know start young again. 1139 - > I'd say, yes, I'm happy to go back, but on why condition you 1140 - > can keep my money that I have now, but I want to take my 1141 - > experience with me.

1142 - > That experience, it's the journey. 1143 - > That experience is the journey. 1144 - > SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah. 1145 - > SPEAKER_02: That is more important because right now that 1146 - > I've got experience, you can't buy experience, but money I'll 1147 - > be able to make a lot more of this stuff.

1148 - > So that's why that experience side, giving it a go, trying is 1149 - > so important, and like compound interest, um, you just have to 1150 - > compound that experience early, and that's why I said before 1151 - > just start now. 1152 - > And you've got all the resources. 1153 - > If you don't know how you use Chat 2D, YouTube is fantastic. 1154 - > You don't have YouTube, YouTube, Google it.

1155 - > If you don't know how to use those three, I think you're in 1156 - > deeper trouble than any. 1157 - > SPEAKER_01: So these tools, these tools will teach you how 1158 - > to use them. 1159 - > Claude has taught me how to use Claude, you know. 1160 - > It it's correct.

1161 - > Uh there's so much uh in there, yeah. 1162 - > SPEAKER_02: And it's free, free and free. 1163 - > That's how insane the site is. 1164 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.

1165 - > So everything, uh, opportunity everywhere. 1166 - > Um, that's that's fantastic. 1167 - > Uh Erwin, it's been great uh speaking with you. 1168 - > How can people connect with you online?

1169 - > Where can they find you? 1170 - > What websites do you want people to check out? 1171 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, fantastic. 1172 - > Um, if if anyone wants to connect with me, there's a 1173 - > couple of ways.

1174 - > Uh, LinkedIn, of course, always works. 1175 - > So Irwin Howe, uh Irwin I-R-W-I-N, how is in how do you 1176 - > do, but h-a-u. 1177 - > Um, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. 1178 - > You can go to IrwinHowe.

com uh to connect me as well. 1179 - > But my two agencies or one agency, chromatics, chronat i 1180 - > x.com.au, because we are in Australia, or conversion cows uh 1181 - > SAS software is conversioncalco.

com, uh milk 1182 - > your website or beef up your website uh for more leads. 1183 - > Uh, those four ways uh how you can actually get in touch. 1184 - > SPEAKER_01: So look forward, excellent. 1185 - > Uh thank you so much.

1186 - > Before I let you go, uh I'm gonna ask you what is the one 1187 - > mind shift that will help clients get more out of their 1188 - > marketing that you'd love to see people make. 1189 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's marketing is actually not as 1190 - > hard as you think it is, and it's not going to a barbecue and 1191 - > listening to you know, Uncle Joe just tell me something, just 1192 - > doing that. 1193 - > It's a simple formula that we've said before. 1194 - > Traffic times conversion rate equals customers.

1195 - > If you want more customers, you need more people to come to you, 1196 - > and you actually need to convert. 1197 - > And that conversion is not just a once-off point, there's 1198 - > website conversion, there's telephone, you know, the picking 1199 - > up and a book that a point about the phone conversion, there's 1200 - > conversion of the sales method, at the proposal, about meeting, 1201 - > all the way to the end. 1202 - > If you methodically work out and focus not on just randomly 1203 - > grabbing everything, but going, what marketing channels do I 1204 - > have for the right target market?

1205 - > And how does each conversion point work? 1206 - > And how do I improve each one? 1207 - > One percenters make a big difference. 1208 - > So it's not just I'm running ads, that's it.

1209 - > Or my sales guys are fantastic, that's it. 1210 - > It's the combination of start to finish. 1211 - > Everything has to work. 1212 - > It just so happens that we've found that the website level is 1213 - > where most of it falls down between the marketing and the 1214 - > salesperson.

1215 - > But I'm not gonna lie, it's the whole thing that needs to be 1216 - > affected. 1217 - > So hopefully that just breaks it down and makes it a lot easier 1218 - > to understand. 1219 - > And if you're not sure, feel free to reach out and happy to 1220 - > do that. 1221 - > Yeah, yeah.

1222 - > SPEAKER_01: So build build out the whole funnel, but pay 1223 - > special attention to that conversion piece at the end. 1224 - > Because if people are coming to your site, but they're not 1225 - > making it through to the end process where they make an 1226 - > establish contact with you. 1227 - > That's the key piece to fix. 1228 - > Yeah, absolutely.

1229 - > Well, it's been great speaking with you, everyone. 1230 - > Thank you so much for spending time with us today. 1231 - > Uh, check out Chromatics if you're uh in Australia, you're 1232 - > looking for marketing. 1233 - > If you're in the States and you want to get a hold of us, we're 1234 - > at ewrdigital.

com. 1235 - > You can uh uh find us there, and we'd love to have a 1236 - > conversation. 1237 - > Check out everyone's software again. 1238 - > The website for the uh semus for conversion rate optimization is 1239 - > conversioncal.

com. 1240 - > Conversioncal.com. 1241 - > Excellent.

1242 - > Sounds like a great tool. 1243 - > We're gonna check it out ourselves. 1244 - > Uh thanks again, everyone, for your time. 1245 - > I really appreciate it.

1246 - > SPEAKER_02: Beautiful. 1247 - > Thanks for having me. 1248 - > Take care. 1249 - > SPEAKER_01: Cheers.

1250 - > See you.