EP 84 The Man/Woman Show

Stephanie Pierillo: Welcome to the Bad Boss Brief. I am Stephanie Pierillo.

Eugene S. Robinson: And I'm Eugene S. Robinson.

Stephanie Pierillo: And we are at episode 84, and we are calling this the Man Woman Show.

Eugene S. Robinson: That's a good one. Okay. Well, uh, you know, it reminds me of Prince, you know, that speech he gives in Purple Rain, you know? Anyway.

Stephanie Pierillo: Well, you know, we've talked before about conflict between genders. And what I was thinking about is, what if we switch to an orientation where there was more curiosity about differing gender experiences. Right? And, I mean, you and I talk about gender, we talk about race, we talk about different perspectives. But I thought it would be really interesting to just get curious about what is it like for you to move through the world in a male presenting body versus what is it like for me to move through the world in a female presenting body?

Eugene S. Robinson: Well, you know, this is. This is going to be a good show, and it'll be deep because, of course, um, though I heavily identify with the, you know, masculine aspect of my personality, um, you know, men are born into my family, like, once every 50 years. All the men in my family have married it, right? So there's my grand. My Uncle Sammy, and then me. And then after me, no men born into the family until my grandson nine years ago. So that means I was raised four sisters, four daughters, uh, tons of females. The first person in my family to teach me how to fight was my cousin Debbie. So it may happen that though, you know, I'm with the weight lifted in the cars and the guns and the martial arts, but in a relationship, typically, um, I'm, um. I'm not the average dude in a relationship, right? Like, I'm getting offended at stuff that most guys don't have the frequency bandwidth to even hear. So we joke that our favorite saying around here is, well, what's that supposed to mean? So it's very nuanced here. So, yeah, I can do the macho thing, but in general, when I'm walking around in my own head, I'm, uh, a lot closer to you than you think. So. Right. But I'm game. I'm game for this.

Stephanie Pierillo: And I do think we are aligned in a lot of ways. And I think one of the things I just want to say at the beginning, especially because this is Pride Month, is in our frame of understanding, a trans man is a man, a trans woman is a woman. There's a wide variety of gender experiences. You get to name what it is that you are, how you are moving through the world. That gets to change over time. Um, and so we're just there's. We're not parsing that. Right. And I also want to name the fact that there are many people who do not identify as male or female in the kind of traditional sense that we're discussing. They are non binary. They are intersex. There's a whole. And we are acknowledging and celebrating those individuals and just recognizing, like, that's not what we're talking about here, because that's not our lived experience. Right. So all valid, all exists. Happy pride, all the things. All right. Um, so. And then I also want to acknowledge that, you know, gender is obviously just one aspect of how people move through the world. There's race, there's physical ability, there's, you know, all sorts of other things. But we're just going to talk about gender today. So tell me one thing about being a man that you think a lot of women don't understand. So we're just going to ask questions and I'll answer one. You'll answer one. What do you. What, what's one thing about being a man you think women don't understand?

Eugene S. Robinson: Um, I'll give you one. One really basic one that undergirds everything. It's a meme as far back as I can think with Ralph Cramdon and the Honeymooners and this stuff, and it's something simple. Friday night rolls around or Thursday night rolls around and somebody in the couple will go, let's go out this weekend. And, uh, uh, there are lots of guys who like to go out. But I think by and large, inside, every man dies a little bit when he hears that because of the fact that going out for men is fraught.

Stephanie Pierillo: Right.

Eugene S. Robinson: Going out with women, if you're a woman, I imagine going out alone is fraught. Um, but the understanding is, if you're in a couple, then it's fine if you read my book Fight or everything you ever want to know about asking, but we're afraid you get asked for asking. Um, I said there are three times when you're most likely as a man to get into a fight. It's when you're in a couple. It's when you're in a hurry in a couple, and it's when you're dressed nicely because the malefactors on the street have correctly reasoned that you won't want to take the time. So you're a sitting duck. So going out for a man is fraught with, I got to take care of me and I got to take care. I got to take care of us. And that undergirds where we Want to go how we want to spend our time. And, uh, the mildest guy I saw get thrown through a plate glass window at a bar because he had to, you know, his, his date. In this instance, actually, I was not there. But in this instance, my grandmother said, david, did you hear how that man spoke to me? David had to get off his stool and go down and say, I need you to apologize to the lady. A, uh, fight ensues, and the guy who was my godfather gets thrown through a plate glass window. So I think. I think it's not just we're boring. It's not like we'd rather stay home. But we're factoring in. We're factoring in the danger, uh, that, uh, we can't talk to you about. So, uh, I think that's one thing that women don't know, really. And I don't think any man admits it, but it's 100% true.

Stephanie Pierillo: Well, and I think that for me, in terms of things I don't think men understand about women is, you know, there's a. There's an understanding in kind of feminist theory that women tend to be and think in a more embodied way and that traditionally patriarchy has expressed a preference for the rational over the embodied right. That, like, somebody who is using their intellect and rationality is considered to be a superior reasoner, as opposed to someone who might go with a gut feeling or an instinct. And I'm not suggesting that men don't have gut feelings or instincts, but I think the idea of, like, being embodied as a woman connects you to a rhythm and a kind of creativity that I don't think men experience in the same way. And I don't think men have an understanding. Like, there's a lot of things, social media memes where men are given devices that mimic the pain of menstruation and menstrual cramps, and they fold and they cower, okay, whatever. But I think it's larger than that. It's the understanding of what it means. You know, most women menstruate. What does that mean? That once a month, for a large portion of your life, you're going to bleed, you're going to experience pain, you're going to be part of a kind of natural cycle. Right. For women that are able to or, uh, choose to have children, what does it mean? For a lot of women, including myself, the experience of bearing and giving birth and raising children, babies, uh, was life changing, you know. And again, they say men go to war because they can't have babies. Like they don't have that, you know, sort of like pivotal change from one state, no children, to another state, and all of the kind of physical travail that goes along with that. And I think there's a real joyfulness to it, right. And I think that women who can own that sense of being embodied, who can stay with it, because of course, the patriarchy also tries to strip you of that, can really tap into a, uh, sense of joy that I just don't. I just don't think men have. They play sports. I played sports. It's a different sort of deep connectedness.

Eugene S. Robinson: There's something Simone de Beauvoir said that I always like, and she had a great deal of sympathy for the male condition. And she said that, you know, men, uh, have to buy into their families. And she thought that was a major tragedy. You know, women have families, naturally, family, but men, um, have to buy in. And if they don't buy in, they don't have a family. So I thought that that was pretty trenchant and that was making me want to track down the, the, you know, the other stuff that she had written about it. But, you know, I'm not out playing a violin, uh, for men, you know, it's, uh. Maybe that's why you get paid more, you know, because you, because you have to buy in. I, uh, don't know, even in a weird turn, even buying in, you know, you know that I moved and I've been unpacking stuff and I found some weird stuff in my. All my stuff I found, you know, I've had a fraught relationship with my father over the years and I found a letter he had sent me and it was just so full of male bullshit that I threw the letter out and. But it's been bothering me. For the last three days. I've had hot flashes of rage, you know, so. So, yeah, I'm not feeling sorry for. There's no, no violins being played over here for whatever men do or have to do. It's the. You understood the job when you took it, so.

Stephanie Pierillo: Yeah, but I think that, I mean, I do think that there's something to be said for curiosity, right? Like the, the reflective self editing of, um. I should not say this because I have these advantages or I have. You know, it's. If that. If the goal is for two people to understand each other better by understanding the lived experience of the other. And we're not, we're not competing, right? There are difficult things about being a man. There are difficult things about being a woman. Right. There are difficult things about being a black man. There are difficult things about being a white woman. You know, I mean, it's like. Anyway, do you think. Tell me something. I mean, what you talked about is challenging, but tell me something that you think is the most challenging thing about being a man.

Eugene S. Robinson: Well, okay, first of all, there is being a man generically, and there's being me specifically. And I would say. I would say, uh, if you.

Stephanie Pierillo: Yeah.

Eugene S. Robinson: Impulse control for me specifically is a very tough one. Uh, uh. But it's, you know, it's. You must be eternally vigilant. Um, but, um. No, I think. I think the, um. I think in 2026, what I find to be killing and the Internet is contributing to it. I think men talk too much. And, you know, and this is a reaction, of course, to the greatest generation, these guys who came back all damaged from World War II or, uh, Korea and were, you know, uh, uh, stiff upper lipping, um, into depression, alcoholism, you know, early, early death from heart. And people were like, no, the 60s came, like, look, we want to hear you talk. And the 70s came, and they were talking in Leo Biscaya, and they were hugging and they were Iron John, maybe they kind of early stage maga. But I think in general, um, yeah, you know, in so far as I've been able to do so, preaching, I'm like, shoulder your burden without complaint. That's it. That's the basic tenet. Nobody wants to hear it. I don't want to hear it. You. Oh, but it's unfair that if I'm having a mental health, then you should go to see a therapist, you know, or start doing jiu jitsu, where you can comfortably talk about this stuff with people without trauma dumping. But I think generally, you know, the Internet has encouraged this kind of, you know, prolix this, you know, loquaciousness. I don't know. I think you just need to shut up, I think. And there's been pushback as well. There's a counter to this type of theory where you relive the trauma. And some people are like, you know. No, actually, studies have shown that your brain doesn't need to do that again. So in general, as a prescriptive, I would say most men talk too much. Just stop. Just slow your roll, you know? Um, think. I mean, I remember saying to somebody, you talk like you're not used to having people listen to you, which is my way of saying, I'm listening to you and you're talking shit. So, um, I think that's one Thing that I would. I would. I would add on the menu for men to do to be happier and more successful.

Stephanie Pierillo: For me, I think the most challenging thing about being a woman that a lot of men don't understand because they haven't ever lived it, is the threat that we live under. The threat of violence, the threat of rape, um, the, like, real, very real physical threat. Um, I have known since I was very young never to walk alone at night. Right. And the limitations that we just accept from, you know, a young age. Right. I'm not going to go jogging in the morning when it's dark. I'm not going to, you know, walk home from the dorm by myself. And this constant threat that you live with all the time as a woman is it's not that men aren't ever threatened or there aren't places that men don't feel some danger, but, you know, the. The danger of being raped is much more prevalent for a woman than it's going to be, you know, for a man. And so. And then I think there's also the physical danger of just, like, interacting with the healthcare system. Right? I mean, most drugs are tested on men. They're tested on white guys historically. And so there's very little understanding of, you know, like, the. How women experience pain. There's a discounting of women who have pain. There's a discounting particularly of black women who have pain. You know, there's discounting of. Of, you know, complications that can happen during childbirth. Like, we are not listened to by doctors, nurses, medical professionals a lot of times. Right?

Eugene S. Robinson: You're not, you're not the only one. I, uh, I decided, seriously, I decided about 20 years ago that I would never have another male doctor. As I'm talking to a doctor about my, uh, about some physical malady that I'm having. And he. I'm. I'm sitting, like, I'm sitting here with you, and I'm watching him look at his phone and make no. And he's like, why am I paying you for this? Right? So, um, and. And I have to say there. There should be a proviso, because if you have been, uh, attacked as a man, uh, as I had been when I was smaller, um, I remember very distinctly, um, when you're kind of right on the cusp, when you're old enough to think you can protect yourself, but you can't really protect yourself, and something terrible happens to you, like, it happened to me. And I remember after it happened, I said to myself, you know, that's not going to happen again and, and pretty much since then. And we're talking like 1975. I. You could stop me any hour of the night and day, and I have some sort of weapon with me, so. So I have made alterations in my permanent alterations in my life up to and including black belt and Brazilian jiu jitsu, up to and including, you know, having a federal firearms license, up to and including, you know, never being unarmed because I found it doesn't pay to trust the rest of humanity, so. Right. And in that sense, you know, I'm in lockstep with all of the other women in my family, you know.

Stephanie Pierillo: Yeah.

Eugene S. Robinson: Yeah. So.

Stephanie Pierillo: Yeah. What. Um, we're both married to opposite sex partners. Tell me one thing that is great about that and one thing that is a challenge in terms of how gendered narratives operate. I mean, you don't forget, we don't have to get too super personal and private, but just generally were both in opposite sex relationships. What kind of comes up that you think would be interesting to discuss, good or bad?

Eugene S. Robinson: I don't, I mean, I'm, um, um, I don't. Some people, um, for the difficult portions of their relationship by, you know, having arguments and it's a tool of negotiation. Right. It's, it's. You can have good ones or bad ones if they can be constructive, if you can get to some sort of, you know, happy place post facto. Um, I don't do it. Uh, I don't do it. I don't, I don't argue. Um, because in my experience, uh, things end very quickly. And this is voluntary, this is a voluntary exercise. We, we are not blood related. Um, and I, uh, am constantly kind of dangerously aware of the precipice. So I'd like to stay as far away from the precipice as as possible. I can have a discussion about difficult things, but arguing where, you know, emotions, uh, I'd like to put a damp on those emotions. Um, like, I know some guys who have been like me, martial arts for the entirety of their lives, and they are deathly afraid of getting into a street fight or, you know, a scuffle or some kind. And I go, why you. You've, you, you're internationally recognized as being one of the top, say 50 people who do this in the world. And the guy, one guy told me, he goes, I don't know if I could stop, you know, so for me, you know, arguing as, as a methodology for getting from one place to another in a relationship is not something, not, not at all. And I, I had somebody say to me, I don't understand it. In every other aspect of your life, you're such a fighter, but in this one, you. I said, nope, won't do it. And part of it is the way I grew up as well, you know, with multiply divorced parents who spent a lot of time arguing, said, nah, not for me. Not part of that. Not going to do it. Not throwing plates and dishes and crockery at each other or pulling knives on each other. Won't do that. That's not going to be part of my life. So, so that, that is the permanent alteration I have made. And I, uh, understand it might be frustrating, but I don't care. I don't know if I could stop. And if, if the ultimate end game is to perpetuate the relationship, then I'm probably on a better path to doing that than not. So. So. Right.

Stephanie Pierillo: Interesting. I mean, I find for me, kind of like on the good side and more challenging side is like one of the good side. I appreciate difference.

Eugene S. Robinson: Right.

Stephanie Pierillo: Like, I just think it's more interesting to have difference. And my husband has a very different life experience than I do. He's Latino, he grew up in east la, he's bilingual, he's bicultural. And I just find his perspective to be really interesting because it is different than mine on a number of different levels. Levels. And I do think that, you know, like, it's, there is something to be said for that. Um, I don't know, it just, it's, it's, it's more interesting. Just like food that is spiced is more interesting that having a variety of cuisines or meals is, is interesting. It kind of charges the palate. I think the, the challenge comes. You know, I was thinking about this in general. Like, so when, like when I think about myself, I'm a white woman in an inter, interracial relationship, so I am trying to be mindful of my white privilege. Right. My husband is a, um, man in a relationship with a woman. And we are both in the middle of the Trump administration in the United States. Right. Which means certainly the Latinx community is under siege in a way that I cannot comprehend living through, because I'm a white person. And women are under siege in a way that he can't understand. Right. Like, our bodily autonomy has been stripped from us. We don't in many places get to choose whether or not we carry a, you know, a child to term. Right. I mean, there's some pretty significant things. And, and I think we fall into the challenge that many, you know, heterosexual, uh, Couples do of how much work do you need to do? Right? So I think that. And my husband is a feminist. He is the only man I've ever met who has read Caliban and the Witch and studied feminism. But I think there is a tendency for, uh, for all of us to say, I read the book, I did the work, I can be done now, rather than understanding that it is not a one and done situation, right. That, like, I will always be working on understanding my white privilege being, you know, evolving my skill. And part of doing that is to stay curious. M. Right. And to be like, what am I missing? To be open to correction. Like, you know, like, oh, I hadn't even thought about that. You know, like, I hadn't even. And just continue to evolve. And I think for a lot of men it's harder to do that because there is this sense of like, I did read the book, I have done this. I. I am doing X, Y and Z around the house, or I'm breaking out of traditional gender norms in this way. And I think there's a sense for a lot of men not to pick my husband, but a lot of men to be like, and that's enough.

Eugene S. Robinson: Yeah. There's a guy I know, A.C. thompson, and he's written a couple books that are pretty great. Had a TV show on Front Line. Uh, he had been editor in chief, I think, of either the Bay Guardian or the SF Weekly, I never remember which. And A.C. um, is old punk rock kid. And actually Rose, good writer, Rose to the ranks, has done a lot of great stuff. And he and I had a great conversation once, and he, he likened it to. He said, okay, your life as a shoebox. And he goes, given that there's a finite amount of time that I have put things in to take, move things around the shoebox, that if I have to choose how I want to spend the remainder of my time on this planet, I have to say, arguing about who's going to take the garbage out is not on the list of things I do not want to. To parcel any minute into that. And I was like, ah, uh, that's an interesting idea that, you know, that you could actually pick and choose. Just get rid of the quotidian and just kind of like, do the shit that's cool. Like, yeah, it could get us further in some way. But in a lot of ways it's like, do I want to spend my time having a staff meeting about garbage cans, you know, or do I just want. I'll take the garbage out. Fine. So now we can think about something else. Um, so, uh, last I talked to A.C. he was married. I don't know if he's still married, and I think they had a kid. But I just. I like that it's, you know, what is a good use of my time? What is a good use of our time? And let's act accordingly. So.

Stephanie Pierillo: Right. And I think it's the. The notion of two people coming to an understanding of who does what in any sort of shared endeavor, whether it's parenting or, you know, living in a house or whatever, in a way that is not dictated by cultural norms, but. But affinity or ability.

Eugene S. Robinson: Right.

Stephanie Pierillo: And the assumption is there's some things we are naturally drawn to, other things that we are not. Um, okay, what's a cultural trend around, uh, your gender that you hate? So could be the manosphere. It could be. What's something that is happening around being male that you find to be unpleasant, uh, unnecessary.

Eugene S. Robinson: I. I tell you, some guy once said to me, he goes, eugene, what is your favorite pickup line? I go, my favorite pickle? Uh, I said, you got a pen? He goes, yeah. You got some paper? He's like, yeah. And I go, okay, here, this is. This is my favorite works 100 of the time. He goes, okay, okay, go. I go, hello? He's like, what? I go, what? He's like, what? I go, what? That's it? I go, yeah, that's works for me 100 of the time. And the guy was like, oh. So, like, this idea that we are adversaries somehow in this endeavor. It's sickening to me, you know? And this, of course, this is the grist for. For. For the manosphere. If you guys spend half as much time listening to other dudes on the Internet and more time just saying hello, you. You might realize that you don't have an enemy across the table. Well, no, man. You know, it's no wonder to me that women are like, I'm out. You know, Right? You're like, you know, I got a master's degree, I got a good job. I got. I cannot find, you know, uh, an equitable. Here, partner here. Because these guys are, you know, the guy. Know, a guy's 30 years old, lost his last girlfriend, she just got out of med school, started her residency, and she's like, what are you doing? And he's like, oh, well, uh, I got this crypto thing going. And she's like, you know, ciao, ciao, I'm out. She's like, I'm not, I'm not. I just you know, I. It's time for adulting now. Please. You're 30, you know, you shouldn't be playing video games till 2 in the morning. If you want to do that, that's cool. Don't expect me to stay around for it. So I think that it's, again, it's a molly coddling, it's the, the softening. You know, these guys obsessed with alpha maleage who are the worst examples of that. And of course, the, you know, their, their, their North Star is the worst. You know, this presidential maniac that we have is the least, has zero masculine virtues and yet claims him all the time. You know, he's, he is whiny, he is vengeful, he is quick to, quick to anger, he is lies, he is inconsistent. I mean, and he's held up as some kind of paradigm of, of masculine virtue. Get the out of here.

Stephanie Pierillo: Right.

Eugene S. Robinson: You know, so the willingness to believe all that stuff, I mean, I had some guy, a good friend of mine back in high school, ask me, eugene, what are your secrets of my cheese mo? And I almost wanted to laugh at him, but he was so deadly earnest when he asked that I had to, like, say. I said, uh, man, I, you know, you gotta realize I don't spend even a minute thinking about that stuff. I'm just doing what I like to do. And I think that's probably the most healthy masculine thing you could do. Just do what you want to do, as long as it's not hurting anybody.

Stephanie Pierillo: Well, the thing that I find myself being very frustrated with are, uh, the ways in which women have internalized the fact that there's something mat the matter with their bodies. Yeah, right. So, I mean, you know, like, there was. Claire Danes was talking about being on a show recently, a TV show, and she got a lot of comments about the fact that she looked so terrible. And what she said is, I'm a woman in my 40s who hasn't had extensive plastic surgery. No one is used to seeing that. Right. Most of the women that we see on television look relatively the same. From 30 to 50. There's very little change. Like, I look at someone and I'm like, last time I saw her in a role was 10 years ago. She looks no different. And, and the idea that women are doing violence to their body, whether it's becoming very thin or reconfiguring their face because. Not because they want to, but because they're told that, you know, and I

Eugene S. Robinson: was thinking about dying to do this.

Stephanie Pierillo: Yes.

Eugene S. Robinson: You know. Yeah, but dying from butt lifts uh, right.

Stephanie Pierillo: But what I think is interesting and, you know, if in the unlikely event you're listening, with children, I am now going to talk about bodies and genitals. So a lot of women are getting their genitals reconfigured in plastic surgery, an operation called a labioplastic. And not for medical reasons, for cosmetic reasons, because they have grown up or they're. The people that they're having sex with have grown up, or the people they want to have sex with have grown up with a. Looking at a lot of porn and I just thought to myself, I'm like, can you imagine any. And this. Women talk about this there, you know, our images of plastic surgeons, their practices. Like, here's a before and after. Here's a before and after. As if it's, you know, like a, um, standard thing. Can you imagine a culture in which men were like, you know, my penis is too long. I think I need to have three or four inches removed?

Eugene S. Robinson: No, But a friend of mine wrote an article, uh, we just put it under the rubric of plastic surgery disasters, about men who had gone in for penal lengthening. And that was the most. One of the most horrifying articles I'd ever written. Red from top to bottom. Top to bottom.

Stephanie Pierillo: But the idea is, this is the. What I mean is that women are medically and surgically shrinking themselves, their bodies, their wrinkles, their genitalia, in a way that is so unimaginable to translate happening from men. Not that men don't have body issues or weight issues or whatever, but I think this notion of the ways in which we have internalized the patriarchy and diminish ourselves physically diminish ourselves emotionally diminish ourselves, you know, in. In competition with one another. I feel like there's so many things that we have taken on to make ourselves smaller. So let's just end. We've only got a couple of minutes. Let's say something. What is.

Eugene S. Robinson: The thing is, every single woman I know who's gotten in plastic surgery, um, and let's say, uh, I want to be very specific about this. I would say maybe about six of them, um, would. Would absolutely, positively not be stopped. Not nobody asked me for any input, but they said, I think I'm going to have this done. And, uh, my response was always, I think you look fine. And they. In some cases, the person has had so much plastic surgery, in one case specifically, that I don't even recognize them as a person who I knew I have to, like, I have to adjust. And I Guess you they would say that they are happy with how things turned out and I don't know that they would assign responsibility to but you know, it's uh, I don't know. I mean I think, I think the modern culture does a number on people's heads and lot of weight. You're never enough, you're never right. And when in actual fact, we're always enough. So.

Stephanie Pierillo: Right. So what's something that gives you hope in terms of men and women?

Eugene S. Robinson: Um, I, I'll give you something super simple that um, right now something just pretty major happened. I can't, uh, I have bookmarked it, um, but uh, women's wrestling, see 100% there was either not, not a Title 9 thing, something pretty major happened.

Stephanie Pierillo: I think a university I think put it like said, women's wrestling is now happening here. Yeah. Something about funding or something.

Eugene S. Robinson: Yeah, yeah. And, and I think that is uh, phenomenal. Uh, I mean all of my daughters wrestled, were state champs and so on. And there's something that change, fundamentally changes how their outlook and how they approach the rest of the world knowing that they can beat up men. So, so I think it's really necessary. And uh, you know, the parents at my very expensive private school always look at me, look crazy when they say, oh, your daughters are wrestling, you know, they can go straight to hell. I think it really, it really has changed the tone and the timbre of their relationships between women and the relationships they have with other, with men. And I think, yeah, I'm super happy about that.

Stephanie Pierillo: I mean my daughter and granddaughter do Brazilian jiu jitsu all the time, so. And I guess what gives me hope is, I um, mean gives me hope because I feel like a lot of these gendered issues are for people who are older. Right. I'm not seeing this happen when I talk to people who are in their 30s or their 20s. When I look at like how my daughter and son in law are raising their kids, their friends, you know, it's like there it is, no deal. If a little boy puts on a dress to do dress up with his sister is no more fraught than if the girl puts on an army costume costume to play, you know, army with her brother. And I feel like there is an acceptance and openness, uh, sort of curiosity in younger people that I think if that's the wave of the future, that gives me a lot of hope. So. All right, that's what we've got time for. Um, if you have thoughts, questions, things you want us to cover. WTF BadBoss? Brief.com WTF? BadBoss Brief.com I read every single one and we will see you in a couple weeks. Thanks everybody.

Eugene S. Robinson: Adios.

Stephanie Pierillo: Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Bad Boss Brief with Eugene S. Robinson and Stephanie Pierollo. You can find Stephanie on substack@sparelo.substack.com and you can find Eugene on substack at. Ah, EugeneSrobinson.substack.com M as well as over on Instagram rsleep3. That's the number three. If you've got a workplace question, situation, or story you'd like us to discuss, send it to me, Stephanie at wtfadbossbrief.com Be sure to join us every other Wednesday@uh, badbossbrief.substack.com for new episodes. Until next time, don't be an asshole at work. Thanks for listening.