EP 82 Do You Want to Know

Eugene S. Robinson: Foreign.

Stephanie Pierillo: Welcome to the Bad boss Brief. I am Stephanie Pierillo.

Eugene S. Robinson: And I'm, um, Eugene S. Robinson.

Stephanie Pierillo: And we are at episode 82, and we are calling this one do you want to know? So today we're going to talk about secrets, betrayal, and what do you really want to know personally and professionally? And before we get started, I do want to say that we are going to talk very briefly about sexual assault. So the kind of what I. The reason that we came up with this topic was because I was reading an article about the new memoir by Giselle Pellico, the woman who was, um, assaulted by her husband for many years. And so we are going to talk about that briefly, and then we're going to move on.

Eugene S. Robinson: I think we could healthily say raped at this point, right? Yeah.

Stephanie Pierillo: Yes. I mean, it's so. It's so epic that it's almost like there isn't language to talk about what happened. Um, but anyway, so let's. Let's get started with that. So I was reading a book review in the New York Times of this new memoir. And the review was written by, uh, Parul Sehgal. And it talks specifically about how she describes her memories and, um, what she now understands to be her denial. Right. So she mentions something. Um, she found Giselle. I almost hate to use her last name because it's the same last name that her husband has. Finding some kind of stain on her clothes and saying to her husband jokingly like, oh, are you drugging me? And he burst into tears. Right. And for anyone that doesn't know, her, uh, husband drugged her, raped her, and then invited people into their community to do this, to also rape her.

Eugene S. Robinson: And they filmed it, and then they were trading recipes back and forth, and they were uploading the videos and so on. So.

Stephanie Pierillo: Right. Uh, so it's just. It's really horrific. But this is what so struck me, and this is in the last paragraph of the book review in the New York Times of her book. Consider this. Dominique Pellico enjoyed initiating other men into his hobby. He offered them sedatives and instructions so they might drug rape and pass around their own wives. After the arrests, the police alerted the men's partners that they might have been victimized like Pellico, and offered to test their hair for the presence of the drugs. Every woman refused.

Eugene S. Robinson: It'd be interesting if they finished out that paragraph, say they refused and they all immediately sought divorces. Or they refused. I guess the assumption would be that they refused so that they could continue living in, um, you know, blissful ignorance. But, uh, we don't know that that's the case. Um, but that's what.

Stephanie Pierillo: And that's a good point. But what it got me thinking about is, what do you want to know?

Eugene S. Robinson: Right.

Stephanie Pierillo: Uh, I think that some of us have an instinctive reaction of, like, I would want to know this. I would, you know, But I think it is useful to explore both professionally and personally. What do you want to know? What do you want to know now? What is important to know about your partner's past? And then also, what do you need to know about what's going on with your work? Is it pertinent?

Eugene S. Robinson: Correct. An ex of mine, she said to me once, very cleverly, and I really enjoyed this, actually, she said, uh, you know, we're in that point in the relationship where you start to talk about maybe monogamy versus whatever the hell else you were doing before you got onto the monogamy discussion. And she said, well, I trust that you'll tell me whatever I need to know. And I was like, dad, that is probably the greatest thing I've ever heard. Right? It's like. It's like, you know, don't bother me with trifles. Unless what you're saying is you don't desire to see me anymore, you're leaving, and that's something I probably need to know. Anything else? Hey, you know, whatever. Um, and then I also remember uttering the line of, well, you have a choice. Do you want me to tell you the truth, or do you want me to bullshit you? And, uh, the woman I was dating at the time said, no, I'd prefer the truth. And, of course, the next sentence out of my mouth is, well, I slept with somebody else yesterday because she was asking me what I had been doing. We hadn't seen each other for four or five days. What have you been doing? I said, well, what? The truth or do you. Naturally, she said, no, I want the truth. So gave the truth. But the issue is, what do you want to know? Um, and I kind of go with the first ex who said, uh, what you perceive me to need to be, needing to know. That's what I want to know. Don't be one of these people with this aggressive form of honesty where you. I was in line, like the whole termist for, um, Eyes Wide Shut, which at first I started to think was Kubrick's version of a comedy where, uh. For those not familiar with the movie, Nicole Kidman tells her husband about this fantasy she had about somebody that doesn't even know that she's alive. Somebody that she saw at a media event that they had gone to. And this sets in motion the whole series of events for the rest of the movie because he's apparently insanely jealous and feels destroyed because she told him, uh, about a fantasy she had about a guy that they saw at some dinner, which just made me laugh and laugh until there were too many eerie parallels between Eyes Wide Shut and of course, the Epstein story. So, um, but in general, you know, people have to be. It's as to needs to know basis is how I feel comfortable moving through life. And same with professionally, I've had bosses over aggressively overshare and major red flag to me. And I always try to like, well, thanks for telling me. Can we get back to the. I'm not. I want to redirect. I don't want to spend any time being their father confessor or whatever the relationship is turning into. I. I want to keep things, keep the party polite.

Stephanie Pierillo: So, see, and I disagree. I feel like there's. There's a couple of different categories. And being specific about the categories are important. Right? So when you talk about, you know, the example of someone who is obsessed with what their partner might be fantasizing about, I think about, um, you know, something that I heard. I talk often about Dan Savage. I love the Savage Love podcast. And he talks about the fact that micro infidelities are not real. Right? And micro infidelities are when people, often women, think that their partners are being unfaithful. If they like a woman's image in a bathing suit on Instagram, if they're following someone who they find attractive, if they maybe do very mild flirtation at a work event. And there are a lot of people who feel like these are relationship endings, disqualifying violations of a monogamous code. And I think that's ridiculous. And I agree with.

Eugene S. Robinson: For those of you listening on the audio portion of the show, I just

Stephanie Pierillo: rolled my eyes very dramatically, I may say. And I think that I agree with Dan Savage that everyone gets a zone of personal erotic autonomy. That what we think, what we fantasize about, who we look at, what we find attractive, and is really generally not the business of our partner, whether we're in m a monogamous relationship or not. And so I do think there's a whole host of things like, I personally, I don't care what people did before they met me. I don't care how many people they've had sex with. I don't care, you know, like, I'm not That's not a factor to me. Right. Okay, now you're smiling. Why is that funny?

Eugene S. Robinson: I love smiling. Because, you know, I mean, I imagine there are numbers that would make you say, wait a minute. What?

Stephanie Pierillo: You know, But I really. I really don't think so.

Eugene S. Robinson: This is very much part of the marketplace discussion now with people talking about body counts, you know, and I'm. I'm really, as a former, you know, Ask Huge is now Lives again, not so much as a sex column, but as a lead into my substack. So every Wednesday, I get. I answer typically three questions if I. If I get them. Um, and, uh, so it's not strictly sex calm like I used to do before, but it's. It's close enough. But, yeah, that was one that I would get. I would. I would. I would get a lot.

Stephanie Pierillo: And. But I. I mean, I think, honestly, like, I don't think there is such a number for me personally, because, you know, I mean, like, I. I just don't think it's germane. And I think that there are. I do believe people should be able to have a zone of erotic autonomy. I also think people should be able to have a past and change. I mean, you are talking to somebody. I'm a recovering alcoholic. I don't want to be judged on, um, the things that I did when I was drunk, which were often quite misguided and unskillful and occasionally illegal when I've made a pretty significant life change.

Eugene S. Robinson: Okay. If somebody told you that they had had 4,000 partners prior to you, would you have any questions beyond that, or would it be, oh, that's nice. Anyway, what do you want for dinner?

Stephanie Pierillo: I would. My first question would be, um, when was the last time you got tested for sti? And I'm gonna want to see the paper, my friend. Um, and then I would be curious about why I was.

Eugene S. Robinson: But, see, now you broached this thing. At first you say, oh, it's not my business. If I, you know, it rains in Spain, you go, yeah, that's great. It's none of my business. You wouldn't have any more question. But now you have questions as to why she had been a, uh, sex worker through the entirety of her college career and sat down one day and figured out, based on how often she was working, how many men that she had had sex with. And the number came out to be about 4,000.

Stephanie Pierillo: Well, and I guess the idea is, like, I mean, I'm generally curious about people in general. Like, if I asked that of a partner and that person responded to. I would also say, I want to understand why. Right. I mean, like somebody who's over 40, who's maybe never been married, who's had one or two partners, I'd also be curious about that.

Eugene S. Robinson: Right.

Stephanie Pierillo: And so I think there's a difference in being curious about a person's past experience and using that past or present experience as a relationship ending.

Eugene S. Robinson: Yes.

Stephanie Pierillo: Using it as a, uh, wedge of judgment. Right. And I think that's what I'm trying to say. And again, I mean, I'm married. This is all academic, but I think the idea of saying, I would like to think that I would have the integrity to say, I'm curious if there's anything else you'd like to share with me about your 4,000 partners or your one partner that's interesting. I want to get to know someone as a person, but it's not a disqualifying event. However, I do think there are some things that are disqualifying events and that I do want to know. And that's kind of what I'm curious about. Right. So, like, when I was thinking about this, some of the things that I want to know is especially, and I'm talking about like, a, uh, serious partnership, not just somebody that I'm, like, dating or have no intention of settling down with, but things that I thought about when I was single and looking for a relationship is. I want to understand risks someone has taken. So, for example, um, is someone a heavy gambler? Do they, um. Have they taken really significant risks in their professional life? Do they drive really quickly without a seatbelt? Do they take a lot of street drugs and don't bother to test if there's fentanyl in them or. Uh, not. Like, there are people. I do believe there are people who have a high tolerance for risk and who really enjoy risky behavior. And I get, you know, I get very curious about that. So I do think that I do want to know if someone has a risky behavior. I do want to know if someone has a pattern of really bad financial decisions. Right. Um, they declared bankruptcy multiple times, and it wasn't around, you know, their kids, cancer diagnosis or medic medical costs, which are still the majority of bankruptcy reasons in this country, sadly. But I want to understand that stuff. Right. I also want to understand anyone, you know, if, if, if a woman is looking at a man as a potential partner, I would hope that she would be very curious about any experience he has with, uh, with violence. Right. Like, has he ever been arrested for domestic violence? Does he has he ever had a restraining order against him? Has, you know, have there been circumstances, you know, like, physically assaulted a partner? That to me is a disqualifying event. And so I do feel like there are questions that we should be asking, we should be aware of, and information, if we find it out, we should take very seriously. And I'm much more concerned with that than I am with like, how many partners somebody has body counts. Yeah, yeah.

Eugene S. Robinson: But, yeah, the interesting thing is I've often, and it's kind of creepy, but probably was as a result of living in Silicon Valley. I've often compared serious relationships to a corporation or, um, maybe if you want to go in filmic terms, the speech that, uh, Al Capone, via Robert Nero gave in the Untouchables, and he goes like, corporation is a team and anything that threatens the existence of the team should be discussed. And those things you named easily threaten the existence of the team. Financial profligacy threatens a team. You know, violence threatens a team. I mean, anything else, you know what the team, the team had 10 losing seasons before you. It's kind of instructive, but not, not damning. So, yeah, I, uh, I can appreciate that.

Stephanie Pierillo: And I also want to know if there's a real significant disconnect in terms of my ethics and morals and another person's ethics and morals. Right. So I remember once a man I was in a relationship with talked about walking in. This is a long, long time ago, right? And he walked into like uh, a Kinko's or copy shop and he was in a, he was in a sales position and he saw that there were a bunch of copies of sales materials from his biggest competitor and he took them like, he didn't even think about it. He was like, what a great opportunity. I can get a competitive advantage by stealing materials from my.

Eugene S. Robinson: Did he steal them?

Stephanie Pierillo: He picked them up off the Heatha's counter and walked out. But again, he did not consider. I mean, I'm sure he would say the same thing. I didn't steal them. They were sitting right there. It was an advantage. I took it. This is my pursuit of my business, my career, whatever that. I understand why he made that decision. Uh, it is just completely contrary to my ethics. And I didn't think of him in the same way afterwards. I was like, oh, okay. So we have really divergent opinions.

Eugene S. Robinson: I was in Safeway once with my ex wife and uh, as we're walking back to the car, I realized that the checker has mislaid. Uh, she gave me the wrong change to My benefit, it was like five or ten dollars. I was super happy about this. And my ex wife looked at me and goes, I can't believe you're happy about this. What are you talking about? This is great. I got $5 I didn't have before. So what you're saying is you're not going back in there to give her the money that she, I go get, uh, out how many times they ripped me off, she goes, that's a justification for unethical behavior. And right away I realized what was happening, that she had grown up management. I mean outside of the ethical underpinnings of this, that, you know, our family, they ran, uh, uh, Eastern Nevada cattle ranch and they were management. They were, you know, this was frowned on. But I didn't grow up as management. To me it was like, hot diggity dog, God loves me today. I got an extra five. It didn't even. There was nothing in my mindset as a transplanted New Yorker that was like, go back and give that $5 to that woman. Forget it. No way. And I still to this, to this day defend that decision because.

Stephanie Pierillo: Okay, well you're going to, you're going to have to defend it to me because I will tell you, I am with your ex wife on this and I did not in any way grow up in management. But what I did do is I worked a minimum wage job where I had to count out my drawer at the end of the night and if I was $10 short, they would dock my pay. And so when I get paid extra, what I think about is not, I deserve this because I've worked hard. And that's a management perspective. What I think about is that person who is making whatever they're making as a cashier, wherever they're a cashier, standing on their feet, dealing with the public day in and day out, might get their pay dock by this $10. And um, I don't want to be the oppressor who is taking money away from someone who is working very hard at a very demanding job, which I know because I have done it. So I will turn my ass around, go back and give them the $10.

Eugene S. Robinson: Okay, I'll give you, I'll give you a pre story of something like that where I did exactly that, took the money back to the woman and she looked at me like I was an idiot. It was almost like something from Knuth Hampson, uh, you know, of course, fascist, but he was uh, a great writer before he went nuts and became a fascist. But I thought I'm really doing a good thing here. Took it back and she's like, thanks.

Stephanie Pierillo: Well, but again, I think the idea is. It's like, this is the thing with ethical decisions. Does it sit right with me? Does it feel okay with me? And I think if you make a decision that feels right to you, keep the money, don't keep the money, as long as you feel okay with it. I think the challenge comes when people make a decision and they justify it and they know somewhere inside of them that. That it's not cool. Right? Like, it's not. You know, it's. It's. And that's the one that eats away at them. Um, you know, like, this is a weird. This is a weird example, but one of the things I've noticed in, you know, my years as a woman talking to other women is, you know, women who have chosen to terminate a pregnancy have very different responses to that. That there's, you know, a lot of times people will talk about, um, you know, particularly in the conservative press, about women who are plagued with regrets and can't believe that that's something that they did and they. They carry. I'm not talking about a grief. I'm talking about like a shame or a guilt. Right. And my experience is that if a woman feels like this is the right decision for her, that it is morally appropriate for her, she has, you know, has an abortion, terminates the pregnancy, that she generally goes on and is okay with it. And. And it doesn't plague her. She doesn't have nightmares about it. She doesn't carry it around. And that women who question it, who don't feel right with it for whatever reason. Right. Or feel pushed into it, they're the ones that tend to have more energy around it. So I really think that there is something to recognize that there's a. Uh. If. If we really believe that a difficult choice we are making is grounded in. In our understanding of ethics and morality, it can be a different response. But I. I digress. I digress. I think one of the things that. That came up in this review, um, of, um, Giselle's memoir was the notion of denial. Right.

Eugene S. Robinson: And.

Stephanie Pierillo: And that in looking back, she admits that she probably had an idea that something was wrong and she just didn't want to pursue it. And I think that's something that we don't talk about enough is the ways in which we have some sort of an understanding, some sort of a. Like this, uh, might be weird, and we choose not to pursue it, which I think is a way of not wanting to know. And I'm just curious, like, ah, are there times when you feel like you've done that? When you've been like, I don't. I'm just gonna la, la la, la la, plug my ears. I don't want to know. Um,

Eugene S. Robinson: I'll give you a story from my memoir. And I was sitting at a table at a party and with a bunch of British guys, I don't know who are not friends of mine. And they, um, were kind of drinking like they were in a pub and going around the room and picking people to talk about. I was kind of half listening. I didn't know anybody at the party really. I had been kind of dragged. I knew like two or three people had been dragged there by my girlfriend at the time. And they alight on my girlfriend and they, in a very British way, say, what about this one then? And I felt like a sudden burst of ownership. Uh, I didn't like the tone they were taking. And I said something about, oh, you mean my girlfriend. And the look that they exchanged with each other indicated to me that they knew a lot about something that I didn't know at all. Which was subsequently revealed to me within two weeks that she was sleeping with the hairdresser. Her hairdresser who was also at the party. But I remember when I said that and they exchanged those looks around the table, the first thought in my mind was, God damn it, you just couldn't keep your mouth shut, Right? Like, I knew in the end. And within the two weeks I would have found out anyway, because the people that told me had no ties to these British guys that were sitting there and, you know, were excited to tell me because they thought this was like a big drama moment, that I was going to do something, you know, substantial other than what. What I did, which is like, good, good luck to you. Um, but, uh, in that instance, I knew something that I would. I thought I would have been fine not knowing. And since that time, I've pursued not knowing as a standard operating procedure.

Stephanie Pierillo: Why?

Eugene S. Robinson: Along the lines of, because I'm not interested in the drama. I'm not interested in spending even a minute of my time dealing with unpleasantness, which is unrealistic because life is full of unpleasantness. But the reality of it is I don't need to add to the finite time I have left on this planet to add more unpleasantness. If you give something you need me to know, then you let me know and then we can go from there. But I'm not going to be ducking and dodging and trying to find out stuff and say, hey, didn't you say that you were going to, but yet you went to. I mean, if it's egregious, if it's like insultingly bad, then maybe it's time to get to the last discovery. But to work on a series of discussions that indicate that you're some sort of paranoia. No, no, no, no. To me, I can't let that play in my head for too long.

Stephanie Pierillo: I mean, I hear you, I hear you. But to me it's a self protection situation, right. That like, uh, I think we're both

Eugene S. Robinson: talking about self protection. I mean this is the way in which I'm choosing to protect myself.

Stephanie Pierillo: But see, to me, I feel like I don't have that luxury that I need to understand if someone is lying to me so that I can protect myself. I need to understand if someone is dangerous to me. And yes, you know, I mean, because this idea. Yeah. You know, you look at it at like again, these, the circumstances change. But like you look at. In thinking about denial, I feel like there's, there's different kinds of denial. There's the sort of willful, like I don't want to know because if, you know, like to talk about a woman or any person who finds, you know, thinks that their spouse is having an affair to be like, you know what? I don't need to know that because I don't want to blow up my marriage. We have young children. A, uh, monogamy is a good ideal, but I understand not everybody can do it. I'd rather not know. I'd rather have my peace of mind. That is, is an intentional denial decision. The thing that I find, and maybe it's just because, you know, I have, I have had many alcoholics in my life. And I do think that there's something that alcoholics and addicts do that often impacts the. And so do the people around them, their friends and family, which is there's almost like a pathological denial. Right. Like some part of their brain just switches off. So they're not choosing, as in the case of uh, someone who thinks their spouse is having an affair. They're not choosing to not look. They're literally erasing the experience as it's happening.

Eugene S. Robinson: Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Pierillo: You know, and I think that's the part that makes me. Just because I think I do have that tendency is I tend to be very alert to. Okay, if, you know, if somebody teaches you who they are, believe them. Like, I don't need to make up a story that you know, like, I don't need to, um, I need to second guess my machinations that go on in my head to pretend that, you know, like somebody isn't, you know, like, I, I have a friend who's a drug addict who recently relapsed and I thought they had been using again, but I wasn't sure. And I realized the machinations, I went through my head, the like, well, that's an odd comment. Or isn't that interesting that that happened? And it's like, I'm sorry, this is not the first drug addict I've ever met, but there was that part of my brain, not intentionally, not, you know, like that just shut down. Like, no, they're not using again. No, they're not. If they say they're not using again, they're not using again. Even though I know better.

Eugene S. Robinson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's that, uh, what I call the systematic denial of the reality of experience, you know, which is like, uh, yeah, I don't, I'm not that. I don't think that's what I'm preferring to do. Like, it. Like, look, I have this theory that most people prefer to discovery, right? I, um, mean, as a 25 year plus sex columnist, what I got time and time again from letters or whatever, emails and people are asking questions is that it seemed like a woman whose husband discovered that she was having an affair. How did he discover it? Well, because for the first time in 20 years, she left her diary out and uh, with a pen inside to the section where she was talking about the affair that she was having. And in my answer, comically, I say, when you left the diary on your husband's face, I mean, uh, this was like reaching around to scratch your head with your left side of your head with your right hand. She was wanting to affect a change in her relationship. So if it was easier to believe that she left it out. And he happened to read it, but he happened to read it because it was left out. But he also happened to read it because the secondary disclosure that they were not having. He had a feeling. He had a feeling things weren't right. He had a feeling. Oh, and here's a diary and there's a pen in it and I'll read it. And it was discovered at that point that she was having an affair. But there's like probably 5%, I'll just make up numbers, 5% of people who are doing things that would be injurious to the corporation were they to be discovered, but who really have zero Interest in discovery. And these are the people that I find myself like, those are the people you gotta watch out for. Because I'll give you an example that touched, uh, me, uh, directly. My, uh, sister, one of my sisters got married in October and was divorced in November. What happened? Well, same thing. The fiance. Then the husband started acting out. So I'm going to go out to the store and get something. Leaves his phone there. And she's like, I don't want to be that wife. But the phone is buzzing and buzzing and this stuff is coming in. And she just kind of looks down, and it turns out that he was having an affair with a friend of hers. That she had got the friend to get him a job where she, uh, worked. And so. And he gets back home and she says, well, how long has this been going on? And he's like, well, you know. And it dawns on her in one fell swoop that essentially he had been having an affair with this friend of hers for almost the entirety of their relationship. The entirety. I mean, like six months in, she said, oh, dude needs a job. And her friend goes, oh, I'll help him get a job. So pretty much six months after they started dating, this is through them living together. This is through them making a decision to get married. This is through her having a fiance making some decision to get married. So it was a great. At that point, after she tore up the apartment and proceeded to throw him out. Says, you got to go, and I'm leaving now. And he goes, you're leaving? She goes, like he meant temporary. Are you leaving the apartment? She goes, I'm leaving and I'm leaving. You know, I'm doing both types of leaving. So he was clearly, you know, not one of that 5% that didn't want discovery. I have to say, he wanted discovery. It was getting too hot for him. You know, how to manage him now a marriage. He had two kids from a previous marriage and now married the kid. And the two. And the new. He just couldn't handle it and broke. So. But the people that could keep that going for 10, 15 years. Do you want it? 20 years? Is that. I've often wondered in discovery phase how that feels like the entirety of our relationship. You had a relationship not with several people, which would almost be forgivable, but with, like, one other person that would be kind of irksome. That would be irksome.

Stephanie Pierillo: And again, I think what I'm thinking is that, you know, when you talk about the way you're able to just not be concerned Or I think that's great. Like, I wish I could do that. Right. And I think what I'm. What I'm thinking of in terms of, you know, the, the women who, for whatever reason, didn't want to know certain experiences is I feel like I have a lot of compassion for people who don't want to know because I have also been on the. The receiving end of pretty intense betrayals. And it is very painful. And, you know, you sometimes do once, you know, have to uproot your life and start again and rearrange your expectations and deal with a lot of stuff. And so I feel like thinking, have

Eugene S. Robinson: you been on the other. Have you been on the other side? Have you, uh, been the betrayer?

Stephanie Pierillo: No. I mean, I've certainly done. Are, uh, you giving me a look right now like we're going to talk offline? Because in my awareness, I have not been a betrayer. I will say I have certainly. I have certainly hurt people's feelings. I mean, I have ended relationships where the person with whom I was in a relationship did not want to end the relationship. Right. I mean, so I'm not suggesting that people. I have not broken hearts or made people sad. But. Okay, I'm glad we're almost done because recording and be like, what the are you talking about? I don't remember. I mean, we have known each other for many decades and maybe there's some, um, acute betrayal that you are recollecting that is, uh, lost in the midst of time to me.

Eugene S. Robinson: That's why we have long term friends around to remind us.

Stephanie Pierillo: Oh, thanks. Yay. Just, just not on air. Okay. I think that's a great place to end. I want to send you a question for asking huge. Where do they send that?

Eugene S. Robinson: Uh, just DM me through wherever you get the show from. It's on substack. If you look at the Eugene. Eugene S. Robinson show stomp or ask you, you can find it on substacks.

Stephanie Pierillo: Okay, great. And if you have a question for us, wtfadbossbrief.com WTF? Badboss brief.com I read every single one. So now I'm gonna hit the finish button M. And then we're gonna have a conversation. All right, thanks for joining us. Bye.

Eugene S. Robinson: Adios.

Stephanie Pierillo: Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Bad Boss Brief with Eugene S. Robinson and Stephanie Pierolo. You can find Stephanie on substack@spayrolo.substack.com and you can find Eugene on substack@eugene srobinson.substack.com as well as over on Instagram @mr. Sleep three. That's the number three. If you've got a workplace question, situation or story you'd like us to discuss, send it to me Stephanie@wtfadbossbrief.com Be sure to join us every other Wednesday at Ah, badboss brief.substack.com for new episodes. Until next time, don't be an asshole at work. Thanks for listening.