#234: How to Use Partnerships to Scale (B2B Partnership Strategy) - Bryan Williams

Speaker A: Welcome to the B2B playbook where we help B2B teams punch above their way.

Speaker B: We're your hosts, Kevin and George. Each week we break down how modern B2B companies build demand, win deals and grow revenue using our, uh, five B's framework.

Speaker A: So if you work in marketing, sales or customer success and you want to make a bigger impact in your business, hit, hit, subscribe so you don't miss an episode.

Speaker B: And remember, revenue growth starts with people, not platforms.

Speaker C: The role of partnerships, uh, where to play and how to win and then back it in partnerships actually works the other way. You got to say, what can we offer these partners? How do we do this in a scalable way? Which becomes a partner program. How do we do this in a sustainable way? Ongoing partnerships should contribute about 30% of revenue, capacity, commitment, mutual customers and capability and be able to run a matrix across who you're selecting very strategically and intentionally. And then the way that we operationalize them is building mutual success plans and account plans with those partners.

Speaker A: Sales teams. They're constantly looking for those people who are ready to buy. Very, very difficult to find them. You're partnering with people and they're feeding you that potential business that is in market and is more ready to buy right now. And they've built a lot of that trust for you. Welcome back to the B2B playbook where we believe the great go to market is built on people, not platforms. We have had Brian Williams on the show before and the response at the time, it was a couple of years ago, but it was so strong that we knew we had to bring him back at some point. And here we are, ah, years later. I've now got a child. Brian's got three kids at school. So much has happened. And Brian, if you don't remember from a couple of years ago, he's the founder of Hockey Stick Advisory and they help B2B companies build partnerships as a genuine growth channel, not just a wish list logo wall. He spent five years leading Xero's ecosystem across apac where he had a front row seat as to how hundreds of SaaS companies either, uh, built partnerships that drove real revenue or collected integrations that looked impressive and just didn't deliver too much. And that experience became the foundation for his partnerships framework which I want to get more into today. Brian, so great to have you back on the show.

Speaker C: Thanks George. Uh, good to catch up after, uh, a few years and uh, yeah, join the dots and all things partnerships and go to market.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And wonderful to hear how well things are going in your personal and professional life. It's awesome to see Brian in the last couple of years since we've caught up. I would love to know what has changed most in how you think about partnerships or maybe how the market are approaching them.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's interesting uh shifts especially in the aggressive AI accelerated market go to market for what it is. Um, I think if we think about the growth at all costs era of the sort of COVID or plus Covid years for tech companies, partnerships was an expensive experiment on the side uh, where you know, you might know some logos, some companies or go have a go for a few years, get out, get active around it. But it was, it was more driven around um, hope and too often um, hope and spray rather than something which is a quantifiable that a CFO or CRO can get behind. And um, I'm seeing the shift to, towards it needs to be have a line of sight to the ROI of partnerships and be an embedded growth lever uh alongside and with the other channels of what uh a CRO would be able to get behind.

Speaker A: So that then sounds like it needs to be. Is it a top down change that needs to happen? Can companies still experiment with this and then report it up to the CRO and say look at this or how do you think that best works?

Speaker C: Yeah so it has to start from the top down so the founder or the execs of C suite has to understand that the role of partnerships, uh, where to play and how to win and then back it in. Recently we're talking to a UM B2B SaaS founder doing about 2 million a year and they're looking to do we put a sales hire on or build out partnerships. Um and the way that I sort of responded to that was now you've got your existing channels here. Right now partnerships is built and established and grown over time and it's not something you can just plonk into your go to market expecting a fire hose of customers next week. Um, you need to build that engine alongside and over time it's going to be able to grow to being something impactful if done the right way. The benchmark data we see in market is um, partnerships should contribute about 30% of revenue ongoing and most companies we talked to early on uh, are well below that. Um, or just not quite got the capabilities or the foundations in place to stand up partnerships properly and build it out into an effective channel.

Speaker A: So do you think Brian, is that a knowledge gap? What's the gap there? Why aren't companies Pursuing this as just an obvious channel. Um, you know, especially at that $2 million mark.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think. I think it is a knowledge gap. It's every exec leader wants to do partnerships, and it's like missing the how right of, like, if they're here today and I want to grow it out, like, how do we actually bring this to life and how fast can we do it? And what resourcing do we need to be able to do? Um, still exists in Mark, and that's what we do at Hockey Stick.

Speaker A: Do you want to get more, Brian, into the how and how you do it? What are those foundations that need to be in place? So say that business that is ready for partnerships, what are the foundations that they really need to have in place that they're often missing?

Speaker C: Yeah. So for our process, what we walk through is firstly, you got to align. Align, meaning for us is, uh, internally, what is the role of partnerships? Where to play, how to win, what does that look like alongside, right across the company strategy. Partnerships should accelerate the strategy, not be something over on the edge where it's just driving a top and middle of a funnel. Leads coming through. Um, from here, once you've got that established and you know, directionally, you obviously got to consider resourcing. Who's going to do it? It's quite common that the company's getting going someone in sales or marketing or customer success or the founder or exec, like, I'll lead partnerships. And the thing that we say back to them is, well, how much capacity do you have? And they're like, oh, it's just, you know, a day, a week. Or I'm like, well, what results do you expect to get? So the resourcing thing is a really big thing to do it. And then, George, moving beyond that, it moves into a phase which we call validate, which companies too commonly forget or just that disregard whatsoever, is answering the questions of what is your partner's. Where do they generate revenue today? Um, what is their operating model? Why would they partner with you? What do you want them to do? And going through his phase, just because you've got the intent of your partnerships, what you want is that realistic around the partner categories and the players within that you want to pursue. And it's only when you go through that period and chapter that you're then ready to activate some partnerships and start to build some building blocks to get it going. But that's usually the starting spot for a lot of companies.

Speaker A: So it sounds like that it has to be a genuine exchange right you can't just look at a company and think how amazing would it be if we partner with them and everything they could give us? Because from the partner's perspective, well, why would they waste that resource on you if they're not getting anything back?

Speaker C: That's right. Yeah, that's right. And because it's inverse, because it's very, very easy for a company to go to market and sort of say, well if only insert big company would Send us leads, 500 customers, support our events, do this, do that, email their database, then that'd be fantastic for us. Partnerships actually works the other way. You've got to say, well, what can we offer these partners back? Uh, how do we do this in a scalable way? Which becomes a partner program. How do we do this in a sustainable way? Ongoing. So it's embedded for them too as well as for us. And until you start to build those building blocks ongoing, it's always going to be flash in the pan, you know, one off activities which if that's the case, you can't create a predictable line of sight that uh, the finance team can get behind, which unlocks more investment.

Speaker A: So then, for companies who do want to get started with this or have explored partnerships before but haven't had a dedicated resource to it, what do you think is the minimum resourcing that a company needs to have to give this a proper goal? Yeah. What do you feel about that?

Speaker C: Yeah, there's a few factors we always sort of just sort of qualify in, like are you partnerships ready? And I think that's accelerated with the growing number of AI native companies which are coming through right now and will continue to do so. So to start off with, do you have product market fit or emerging product market fit. So basically, is your product any good? Is people going to back you in? Do the leadership believe in partnerships? Understand it's a strategic pillar. A lot of the companies that we've worked with, you know, partnerships is number one to three as a priority. But they know they're building the foundations today to set up tomorrow's growth channel ahead needs to be viewed that way. And we need an exact alignment across the board from the leadership team that partnerships can deliver. Uh, but we're willing to invest to get it going and done the right way. Um, there's a company, we're kicking off some work soon and they've had explosive growth in the last two years and we're coming in to set that foundations around to be able to answer that. And on the back of that, that's when they would hire a partnership manager, uh, when they're ready because they then know uh, what that person would want to do and how it makes sense and how it's set up for success. Rather than have someone in seat and get them to chase business via partnerships for a year or two and waste resources or energy. And then that's where we see the leaders sort of give up. Oh, it's not working. Or the person quits in frustration.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think I've seen you say, Brian, that a good way of figuring out who to partner with is to look at who, uh, sorry, what's your customers use before and after your product? Um, I think that's might have been something I've heard you say. And if that's true, I suppose what the precursor to that is where you have product market fit essentially. Right. Someone's using your product, there's a very clear use case for it, people like it. And you need that to think about, well, who needs us before or who needs to use another company before and what do our customers need afterwards? Is that a good way to think about it?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And it comes back to the customer lens, right George, of um, the partners you want to work with are solving a problem for their buyers. And as a partner you're looking for a better together narrative. Most of the time around it's our burger plus chips. And so by having that analogy which I've previously mentioned, around before or afterwards, you're going to get uh, similar customer overlap. And in terms of thinking about that, we define ecosystem as working with those who have access to or are ah, talking to your ideal customers.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And that's usually before or after where you're embedded in. And it's a good way to overlap. Now also that means if that's who you're looking to work with on the ecosystem front, then you're probably got some customers or overlap which they're gonna want to um, target together. And so there's this better together narrative of what um, unlocks the partnership to make it work.

Speaker A: And I suppose in addition to that you, I know you've also built out a, um, partner marketing capability as well, um, to help people there too. I'd love to know what drove you to add that and what kind of impact does that have when it's layered on top of um, your existing offering in terms of setting up partnerships for businesses?

Speaker C: Yeah, so partnerships are often activated through partner marketing, uh, for awareness of the, of the partnership itself, of the crossover, uh, of a series of campaigns which can be a Whole multitude of a menu of options from in person events, webinars, blog articles, social media, co sponsorships. There's a whole series of things to do. It's a great way to activate a better together narrative. And when we're building the partner capabilities and the teams it's we look at the entire ecosystem. You narrow it down to what partner categories you're going to focus on and then the partners within. And once you start to build that operational rigor with those, you should be able to produce a bottoms uh up plan around what, how many leads these partners can contribute, you know, rolled up together, uh, what's the conversions on those and how does that contribute to the broader go to market plan as a percentage of total revenue. And so partner marketing is the activation glue to bring that to life delivered in a programmatic way as the company grows up to uh, to make the partnership hum that makes sense.

Speaker A: And is it normally that the teams you work with don't necessari the partnerships experience or capability in house and that's something you need to assist them with and possibly upskill them on or is it that their resources are already just too busy doing general marking for the business and they don't have uh, the ability to help with partnerships at that point in time?

Speaker C: Yes, probably the former around um, what should partnerships be doing? Do we have the experience ourselves? Who's in market can help? That's where we'd come in. And then the other place in market we play upstream where we're helping revise and operationalize sharpen large scale partner programs which are in place and how do we drive from good to great for it? Uh, the resourcing part, the second half of your question usually comes after you've done that work with the leadership team understanding what it could be and then you start to build it out and ramp it up from there. What's been interesting being four years at it now it's quite common in the second year um, ah, since our engagement they would be able to bring on ahead of partnerships because they've got a clearer line of sight of what partnerships is um, and how it's growing and it's building momentum and it validates the capex cost to support it in the same way that you would build out a sales team or build out your marketing team as you, as you build runs in the road and see it's

Speaker A: working and talking about how this needs to be a top down approach, what is the normally biggest blocker you get from the CRO ah when it comes

Speaker C: to Partnerships if they just want to be able to know with confidence that it can contribute towards the in year or next year budget and lack a line of sight to the roi. Um, through recent sort of webinars and events that we've been hosting, we always ask the questions around um, what does that look like? And um, we've been building our own AI tooling which will launch in the market soon to be able to have a clear line of sight around what is the partnership revenue gap you have right now. Um, and what could it be to help drive that CRO conversation, to be able to produce some board level reports and analysis to articulate that. What we see is that that's um, unlocking investment in the partnerships. As we see outbound being increasingly um, less effective as we've got a hyper abundance of noise and non stop AI generated sort of slop or um, in our inbox or our daily lives, it's hard to get cut through. Uh, we know inbound's changing too and so I would say probably over you know, 2026 theme George is that a lot of leaders are partner curious as in like what could partnerships contribute towards our, you know, top of funnel, middle of funnel, bottom of funnel and then how do we do it? And uh, we are seeing it's uh a, it's a rising tide moment which is, which is also growing our business as a tailwind.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think all businesses are looking for cheaper ways to reach new customers. Right. It is, it's getting really difficult. I mean advertising platforms costs go up every year and AI I think is lowering the bar to entry for pretty much every industry vertical means more competition, makes things harder. Yeah. With advertising as well. Probably the same for outbound too. Um, that is getting noisier. Uh, uh, everyone seems to be using AI as a bit of a spam cannon unfortunately as well, um, probably not leveraging it as much as they could. And so then I think it's obvious to look at channel like partnerships and say well who has already got trust with customers that we would love to have? I mean I think most people listening, they just have to look and at their existing set of customers to go. Well often it's the ones that were referred in tend to be some of your best customers tend to be the easiest sales calls as well, the easiest presentations or whatever to be, whatever it is because there's that trust already there. And that's what we're trying to do when we're going outbound with sales or marketing is we're trying to build that Trust. And this is a bit of a shortcut to it. I'd love to know from your perspective what impact you think AI is going to have on the partnerships sphere. Uh, I'm going to just leave that wide and open to begin with and maybe we can go from there.

Speaker C: Yeah, so I think um, we're seeing this conversation with a number um, of people in the US we sort of have a dialogue back and forth and you know it's moving from more of a scanner, like who should we partner with to more of a radiologist or of uh. We're seeing partner ops merge into rev ops around the role of partnerships to be more granular around what it can, what impact that can look at. Like recently George, we looked at um, you know, paid ads versus other channels and what partner led, um, you know, leads will contribute and if you kind of look at a cost per lead or to CAC across the channels, partnerships is highly efficient. And so the growing emergence of AI and adoptability means that people in partnerships could be much more impactful. And what that means is they can spend their more time at the top deepening that trust, uh, building those relationships, building that vision and strategy together with other partners and allowing the AI to take care of a lot of the manual administrative tasks which I'll previously bog down into. It's always been fascinating how even from a sales perspective you've got a very structured dollar in, dollar out coin operated machine where you might have SDRs, BDRs, account managers, account execs, um, way flowing through and on a marketing lens which you know well of like all the structured demand gen and the various um, funnel metrics. But partnerships has just been in this isolation bucket over here and just go do it all and go drag business back in without any of that. And I feel like AI is enabling partnerships to sort of flourish, um, to bring it in. But saying that it comes back to just because you want to do it, like what are you going to offer your partners? Ongoing. And why would I do it? Uh, ongoing. Like a big part of this is operationalizing it. And even that analogy Georgie mentioned around, like it'd be great to get some more referrals in. They're bigger, uh, they close faster, they're way down the funnel. But like how do you move that from of. Hey, uh, you should chat to George, he's a great guy. When an opportunity comes out, uh, to moving into a predictable, always on model and building that engine. And that's a missing part. A lot of companies struggled to um,

Speaker A: operationalize and it's the structure that you bring which helps them operationalize that. Right, Brian?

Speaker C: Yeah. So we look at the jobs to be done from partnerships and build it out in a chronological and operationalized way to make sure that there's alignment across the top. Like when we kick off with an executive discovery session, sales always want more leads immediately, not talk to them. Marketing wants more, they want more leads or more reach or awareness. You know, product don't want to build everything themselves and CEO just wants to make it work. And um, in finance it's like, well, where should we invest and why? And so getting on that same page then allows everyone to understand what it is and also what it isn't.

Speaker A: I'm curious for partnerships managers to set a bit of context. As I'm sure you're all aware, the average tenure for salespeople and marketers is somewhere under the two year mark. I think, uh, that's probably mostly SAS skewed, but it's pretty short and often is too short to see any, the fruits of like any real impact being made, which tends to drive people to take or do activities that might get shorter term gains, but longer term aren't necessarily best for the business as a whole. And this is a cycle that we see happen. Yeah, especially pretty viciously for salespeople who are often dealing with, in environments where average contracts might be three years and the salesperson is moving on every 18 months. And so all they're incentivized to do is book the meeting, book the meeting, find people who are ready to buy right now. But all the research shows it's actually incredibly hard to do that, that we don't have any good ways of really predicting exactly who is in market ready to buy right now. And uh, what ends up happening downstream is like a system that is commercially not particularly viable for acquiring new customers, but they tend to inflate pipeline. So I guess my question is, does the partnerships manager also sort of suffer from that same pressure? Is finance viewing them and giving them like enough sort of ramp time realistically to make this work, or do you think they're going to fall, uh, and suffer the same fate as many of the sales and marketers out there?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's a real common problem in the industry, George, that you've articulated well. Um, I met with finance manager last week and provided like a two year lens on, you know, what it's going to take to stand up partnerships to deliver material impact and why. And it's a big education piece for it. Um, and so, you know, partnerships Takes a time to ramp. It's an experiment until it's validated.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And then which unlocks more uh, investment to go more with a clear line of sight to the roi. And there is a case of staying the cause. And so unfortunately we do see if people operating in partnerships get frustrated or leave or let go. And there's also no um, there's no bachelor of partnerships in market.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: You can do sales training non stop you can do you know, you can do the marketing cohort with uh, with you guys and upskill or um, you know marketing degrees but like where do you go and actually uh, learn partnerships. And so you know we come in and position ourselves at a leadership level intentionally to make sure that that education alignment starts at the top, the top down to set up partner managers to come in to execute on to be set up for success because we know and have seen and it does work

Speaker A: if it's invested in properly and if you're setting expectations. Brian, is there a minimum period of time that you generally recommend to companies that this is how long you should run the experiment for?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's a two year cycle and uh m. So you know the first year is a foundational year which we often call no regrets activities where you're starting to build a channel for it and then year two you're going to start to see the compounding impact of that if it's done in the right way. Uh now that's not to say that there won't be quick wins once you work out where to play and, and be able to start the point and shoot and move into the activate phase as we say you're going to start to build some momentum for it and you really need to circulate that aggressively internally and externally with partners to sort of catapult on that and share learnings for it. A lot of the best practices we see in market it is always crawl, walk, run with partnerships or go slow to go fast building that foundations, you know. But the goal is that you don't have to keep hiring a capex heavy sales team be dependent on rising costs of marketing, paid leads or channels. And this is a channel which is able to grow alongside and with you in an efficient growth channel like that too.

Speaker A: And I suppose as I touched on earlier as well the sales teams, they're constantly looking for those people who are ready to buy right now. Very, very difficult to find them which I think is you know partially, obviously they're an expensive resource too but also why it is like a big capex for salespeople too. Whereas the partnerships model, you're partnering with people and they're feeding you those leads, those uh, that potential business that is in market and is more ready to buy right now and they've built a lot of that trust for you. I'm finding it hard Brian, to think of situations or businesses that have product market fit where partnerships wouldn't work. So uh, are you able to share where it hasn't worked or for what reason? Partnerships isn't a good idea. Is there a particular kind of business or is it always the case that it should work and they just haven't given it enough time or the right structure around it?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think it goes back to expectations like a leadership team which is expecting material results, um, next week, next month. It's, it's always interesting when I'll get an inquiry from a leader, uh, maybe a sales leader or CRO who's like hey, can we catch up next week? And it's getting towards end of month, end of quarter and I know they're behind and under pressure and they're like hey, can we get some partners going? Can we get some activity going? We need to kind of fill the funnel and it's a very short term lens to what is a medium, uh, to long term growth channel which should complement your existing channels, not replace in the short term. So sometimes it's that education piece and short sighted or misunderstanding around what it isn't.

Speaker A: So that, that education piece is incredibly important. I mean it's, I suppose it's the same for marketing and sales and partnerships too. That education piece that needs to start at the top, set very realistic expectations about what it can deliver. Um, I'm not sure if you have a lot of other people in the partnership sort of education consulting ecosystem sphere that are uh, similar to some of the snake oil salesmen that we see who promise the world and, and massively under deliver which often just sort of perpetuates this cycle of ridiculous expectations. Is that something that you see a lot of or uh, not yet.

Speaker C: I think where companies go wrong is they'll, I'll hire someone from insert big company and then into like a scale up or a startup thinking that someone at uh, Atlassian Salesforce, Zero, Shopify, HubSpot, et cetera. Like oh, this person's gonna be incredible where we've got this big hire but that person's used to having like a massive team behind them and they come back into operator mode with no resources. You know, like it just doesn't materialize. That way, like it doesn't work out that way. So I think that's a what it's good is it's good for logos or to appease investors or for sentiment that they've brought in this person to drive it forward. But unless that person's been in an organization for an extended period of time and has gone through from the zero to one foundation, uh, setting and then scaled it up, they likely don't have that experience around. How do they roll out that playbook?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean if you're in partnerships at um, HubSpot, for example, there's a good chance that most people that you want to get in contact with would at least be open to the conversation to begin with. And you have that give like already very clear because you have such a big brand, you have so much volume already. Um, whereas a lot of smaller businesses don't necessarily have that.

Speaker C: Right, that's right. Yeah, that's right. And so yeah, once again the expectation, setting and what's required to set up for success is a critical part before you uh, pursue it as a channel.

Speaker A: What haven't we spoken about so far, Brian, when it comes to partnerships that has really gotten you excited lately or something that you wanted to dig into further?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think that the growing need to be have a financially backed commercial plan that's you know, transferable to you know, the finance team. But the CEO can clearly understand that it's better to connect that dots around, you know, what are we going to get out of it over a two year lens. Um, and what we've been doing this year in 2026 is we've codified our operating model for it and building some AI capability. And um, like I said before, we've got a partnership revenue gap calculator now which we're launching the market on May 28th upcoming. Um, it'll be available ongoing. So I think this is a, what it's meant for us is it's bringing forward the conversation at a leadership level around what is the opportunity of partnerships and how do we stack up today and force that conversation to a leadership um, into the board or to the investment team around. We need to look at this properly and you know, across the board we're seeing large cuts of restructures right across tech companies or people are considering how do they do more with less. There's a bit of a mandate of, you know, reduce hiring, um, try and increase revenue per employee using AI tooling. And there's this partner curious element right now that companies um, are looking towards but still don't know how to. And that's why I think even as AI accelerates more, um, there's opportunity to lean into it and to get it right.

Speaker A: Oh, well, look forward to seeing that calculator when it's available. Sounds, um, very, very interesting. Something that I'm sure a lot of our listeners would like to check out too. Where would be the best place for them to find it? Brian, once it's um, once it's ready.

Speaker C: Yeah, we'll put it on our, um, on our homepage. We'll share it in the cliff, uh, notes with this episode too. And we'll be driving it out across our socials upcoming. The goal of it is to allow companies and leadership teams to assess how should partnerships stack up for next financial year and the years ahead and be able to start to have some informed conversations. And we're really excited to get that in the market. What it's also going to allow, uh, from our perspective is we're building proprietary data so companies are going to be able to look towards hockey stick to say, well, how do we stack up against a hockey stick network of our growing companies? And over the last four years we've worked with over 75 B2B tech companies right across APAC and been able to curate those insights into something which is digestible for others is, I think, going to be a real value add.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Uh, we'll make sure that we include the link to that when it's up and running. Uh, one question I would like to ask Brian is I suppose there's a risk when you choose a partner, they promise all the right things. You put the structures in place and then for whatever reason, um, that partner ends up dropping the ball. Maybe they end up cutting resources. Maybe the person on the other side just isn't doing their job. I don't know if that ever happens. Is that a key risk and if so, is there something you can do in advance to try and ensure that you pick the ones where that's not likely to happen?

Speaker C: Yeah, so we go for a criteria where we look across before picking the one. I suppose we look at, uh, capacity, commitment, mutual customers and capability and be able to run a matrix across who you're selecting very strategically and intentionally. And then the way that we operationalize them is building mutual success plans and account plans with those partners. So it's an embedded partner experience in the same way that your inside sales team, you've got a very structured flow of what it looks like and so they look and feel as part of your team. Um, and as always, you'll have partners who are performing and those who are emerging or growing and even established tech companies we work alongside, they've got two levers to pull and push and one is do we invest more in our current partners and get them to drive bigger impact or do we try and recruit some new partners and often they run in tandem. It was a bit of a dance around where do you spend your energy based on where you're at in partner maturity for it. But if you're able to operationalize that and have mutual success plan of all the things that you're going to do together with potentially sometimes up to a 12 month view and you're able to build some deep confidence for you and also for them. Because like a key question for listeners to think about is what revenue or value as a percentage of all revenue would you contribute to the partners you want to work with or across their customer base? Because if it's not a big enough impact compared to other partners, they're going to choose others and not you too. So it's also about getting their buy in to be able to solve what you ask there, George.

Speaker A: Yeah, fantastic. That makes a lot of sense. Um, look, it sounds like as always, you've got some terrific structures around this. Um, you have some resources around all of this on your website too, don't you Brian? For those who want to dig in and learn more.

Speaker C: Yeah, check us out@hockeystickadvisory.com or we're active on LinkedIn. Um, and feel free to reach out to us if anyone's looking to understand more and access some of our tools and assets around, uh, and get that conversation internally started.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Brian, thank you so much for joining us on the show. Really, really appreciate time. So great to catch up again after three years or so. Again, wonderful to hear how the company has grown, how the family's doing. Wonderful. And uh, yeah, look forward to catching up again hopefully, uh, before another three years is up.

Speaker C: Thanks George. Good to catch up.

Speaker A: A quick note before you go, listeners. You can find more great content and get in touch with us at theb ah2b playbook.com be sure to subscribe to

Speaker B: this podcast and our newsletter while you're there to get the latest news, tips and resources from our Playbook.

Speaker A: We'll be back the same day and same time with another episode next week.

Speaker B: Thanks for tuning in to the B2B playbook. Remember, success will be B2B. Marketing starts with the buyer.