#46 What Happens When Leaders Ignore Management: Don’t Be Inspired but Ineffective

Speaker A: Have you thought about the difference between leadership and management? And if so, have you decided which one has paramount importance over the other? Well, if you have not, um, I will admit that I have thought a lot about this dichotomy. So first and foremost, please don't judge me, um, and be too harsh. However, um, I think it's an important one that has a ton of practical implications for your day to day behaviors, no matter what your role or your title are. So that's why we're going to deep dive into this, like, leadership versus management discussion today. And I promise it's not some like, abstract or uh, like academic pontification here. We will bring the normal mixture of clarity around, like what we are talking about. So what meaning why it matters. And then arguably, probably most importantly here for today's episode, the now what part, which is like, what you should do about it moving forward. So let's get into this episode. This is the, uh, 3x5 leadership podcast. It's a show dedicated to making more intentional leaders, regardless of role, rank, or responsibility. Because we believe that better leaders can build a better world. The reality is, however, is that you just can't successfully and sustainably pour into others from an empty cup. So the question is, how do you keep your cup full as a leader? This show aims to help. We do that by filling your cup with simple, practical strategies so that you can live, lead, and learn more intentionally. I'm Josh. I'm glad that you've joined us for uh, today's episode. Now, many of us may regard leadership as the highest expression of our professional identity. Management, on the other hand, tends to sit on the background like it's necessary, but it's uninspiring. I spent a long time living inside that divide, uh, and the more that I've examined it, the more that I've realized how much it shapes the way that we think, act, and develop as leaders. Now, some context here. I've spent 16 years in the U.S. army, uh, which has made that tension impossible to ignore across the entire organizational enterprise of the Army. I'd say that we rarely use the word manager in places like roles or titles that people fill. People are the army's source of power, and so leadership is the business of people. And because of all that, then leadership becomes the aspirational ideal. It's all about being a leader in the military. Management, by contrast, just feels administrative. It's like technical and even mundane. And so it's not exactly the thing that people excitedly sign up to do management, but it really serves or maybe is seen as more of an annoying necessity that often distracts us from the quote unquote real work. But then, like, moreover, look at the Army's doctrine that reflects this bias. In the Army's 130 page foundational leadership manual, management appears only in kind of in passing, with vague references to, like resource management as a means of stewardship. It talks about personnel management as a system and training and risk management as broad management structures necessary for effectiveness. There is one short paragraph that distinguishes leadership from management, sure. But I'd say that the overall message in the manual and really how it's manifested in the Army's culture is clear. And it's saying leadership kind of just is the star of the show while management remains a supporting character. Now to be clear, uh, this is not a bash in the army, which I am a member of. And I'm not trying to say that there's a problem. This is simply an observation of lived reality for me as well as likely many of you, because our lived experiences together just reinforce the same story. No one really rallies around the idea of being a great manager. And even in my own home, for example, when I'm trying to coax my three little toddlers towards this idea of first time obedience, or listening to us at the dinner table or during bath time in the evening, I instinctively ask sometimes, like, hey, who wants to be the leader? Emphasis on leader there. So again, leadership inspires, management often doesn't. And for years I was fully on this like leadership bandwagon, three by five leadership. This platform itself is in many ways a reflection of that focus, often strictly looking at like leadership centric topics of purpose, direction, motivation, communication, uh, connecting with people, as well as building alignment. So I've written and talked about endlessly here about leadership behaviors and uh, have rarely, sometimes, but not often given management, um, more just than just kind of a passing thought through this content. However, last year I stepped into a chief of staff role, kind of overseeing a uh, 150 person staff that supports a 4,000 person organization. And seemingly like overnight, my world became saturated in management. There were calendars, processes, systems coordination, sequencing, resourcing, just insert any other management buzzword that you could think of and all of that at a scale that I had never experienced before. So my days were just consumed by mechanics that make organizations function day to day. And since I've departed from that position and moved on, um, I have since reflected on that experience. And in doing so, something has become uncomfortably clear, I think. And that is even during the years when I Preached leadership as a center of gravity. And for many years, really, I was also quietly relying on like disciplined management practices to make my teams effective. But I just didn't name it. And so that realization has kind of forced this shift in me and my, my, my thoughts and my behavior. So I think that leadership and management are distinct, yes, but they're also inseparable and they are both important. So leaders who elevate one and ignore the other create avoidable friction, confusion and drift. But leaders who understand both and know when each is required can build teams that are not only inspired, but also aligned, coordinated and capable. So today's exploration is about making that distinction useful. So in this, uh, exploration here, we're going to examine leadership and management as separate practices. Organize them in a way that helps leaders develop both, explain why an integrative understanding matters for real world performance. And then we're going to finish with some practical recommendations that you can put into action now to integrate leadership and management. Well, I think we first need to define and clarify each practice. So that's where we're going to start. Leadership is the practice of influencing people towards a shared goal or end state by shaping purpose, direction and motivation. It is fundamentally relational and future oriented. So leadership creates clarity, inspires commitment and aligns human energy towards what matters most. And so to kind of put some bead on this, um, like leadership practices could include things like, or activities like, here's a couple examples, right? Well, it's like articulating purpose, maybe helping people see why the work exists and why it matters. It's also determining direction, which is like defining the desired future and a path towards that future. It's motivating people by generating energy, ownership and commitment. It's shaping organizational culture through things like modeling values and reinforcing the norms. And then it's also building alignment, which we've talked about, um, which is helping people see how their efforts fit together. Then we have management. So management then is the practice of organizing work so that people, processes and resources operate reliably and effectively. It is fundamentally structural and kind of present oriented. So when you think about management, management does things like coordinates, sequences and sustains the systems that make performance possible. So a couple examples of practices. What management often looks like includes, uh, things like establishing processes, which is like creating routines, workflows and standards. Uh, it's coordinating execution, right? By synchronizing the tasks and the timelines and kind of interdependencies between those two. It's allocating resources through the managing of time, information, people and materials. You can also be like monitoring performance such as tracking the progress, identifying friction points and adjusting plans as needed. And it's also like maintaining stability where we ensure predictability, consistency and follow through. Now for me, if I find it helpful with, by uh, using some metaphors that can just kind of help me make the distinction stick, kind of mentally stick, uh, for me and maybe, hopefully maybe this could be useful for you as well. Uh, there's kind of like three that I think of sometimes. Um, so one metaphor is just like the very simple saying that like, hey, we lead people but we manage things. Okay, maybe uh, a second one, I mean a more colorful approach is saying that like management climbs the ladder of efficiency or climbs the ladder efficiently. Whereas leadership though ensures that the ladder is leaning up against the right wall. And then finally just kind of using the general, um, experiential learning model that we, that I like to use here on this platform a lot, the kind of the what, the so what and the now what, um, framework, you get the idea that leadership focuses on like the what and the so what of things. And then management then answers the now what part, like how are we going to accomplish that? So before we move on, however, um, I do want to reinforce here that the core argument, like really this whole episode and um, exploration here is pretty simple, right? It's leadership and management are distinct practices. Yes, but both however are important. And then because of that, leaders need skill sets in both. So how can we cognitively organize this distinction and then transform it into an integrative approach? And that's what we're going to explore here next. Understanding the difference in these practices is necessary, but it's not sufficient. And so the real question is how do we organize and apply these practices in real life? I've long thought of like leadership and management as two ends of a spectrum, right? Every role that is responsible for people and processes require both, but in different proportions. Maybe like roles closer to the front line tend to emphasize management which is overseeing, uh, daily execution, while then maybe more senior roles emphasize leadership, like towards setting direction and shaping culture. So in my mind, like management never disappears, but leadership increasingly dominates attention at higher levels. And so if you think about it maybe as um, a double sided arrow when you got management on one side and leadership on the other, maybe as you start a career you're kind of heavy on the management side of that spectrum. But then over time as you move up the organization into higher roles, closer maybe towards executive levels and stuff, that um, your position on the spectrum just slowly Slowly shifts over towards leadership. And so I believe that spectrum holds true. Yes, but more recently I've come to see that leadership and management are really like distinct developmental assets, not just role based behaviors. So when I ask myself, in whatever position it is, uh, as I'm working with my direct reports, my team, however big or small it is, when I ask myself like, what do I actually need from my leaders at any level below me, I have come to this point where the answer consistently falls to three categories. And we can call this maybe like the leadership requirements triangle. The way that I organize this is within a triangle model. Uh, there's three layers within that triangle. Each layer matters and each one is distinct. But together, however, they form a complete leader. So we're going to look at this triangle model, the leadership requirements triangle, and kind of explore each, each level from top, or excuse me, from bottom to top here real quick. So at the base of the triangle of this model are management skills. So management skills, these form the foundation. Leaders must manage critical resources, things like time, effort, tasks, information, communication, attention, et cetera. These skills create collective capacity, clarity, momentum for you and the organization. In my mind, without them, everything else struggles. While many leaders acknowledge the importance of management, few intentionally develop it in others. And so if we aren't investing time and resources into building these skills, they're really not a priority. They're just kind of a hope and a dream. In my own experiences, I would say this, 16 years in the army, et cetera, nobody has really spent time or effort, in formal ways or informal ways educating me and formally teaching me on, um, management skills. And it's taken me this decade and a half plus to actually figure these out on my own, um, through on the job training, through self study, through kind of figuring it out. Um, and so again, if we don't intentionally develop it in others, we're leaving people to their own devices and their own resources to figure it out. That's probably not the most helpful approach. Um, and again, communications is not a priority. It's just a hope then. So that's the bottom layer, management of this triangle model. Um, like requirements, what do we need of our leaders? One layer above that, in the middle of this triangle, um, is leadership skills. Leadership skills provide meaningfulness and address the human dimension of work. Meaningful work is done for with and through people. And so people are not just mere simple machines. Hey, we're messy, we're inefficient. We have complex mixtures and layers of like, identities that form a whole person. So leadership ultimately is a People, business. So leaders must cultivate equally important leadership skills. And all those skills can be things like visioneering, narrative building, purpose driven, communication, connection, culture, shaping, and getting people to care. So leadership is a skill set, not a personality type. But these are not innate traits. Um, and as such, they are learned, practiced and refined. And then finally, at the tip of this triangle, um, I call it like technical and tactical expertise. And this really just completes the whole picture and the whole model here. Leaders must understand the domain that they operate within. So having exceptional management and leadership skills, for example, alone, just those two sets, does not make someone best suited to become like a CEO of a big tech company, or a professional or college football coach, or maybe even just a commander of an army battalion. All of those positions, professions, whatever you want to call it, those require depth of knowledge within that field. While that required depth varies by the field, sure, some level of expertise is always necessary. And like management and leadership, expertise must be intentionally developed. It cannot be assumed or left as a responsibility of the individual. So again, we've got this triangle model and it's the leader requirements triangle. At the bottom we've got management. The middle we've got leadership skills. And at the top we've got like technical and tactical expertise. And together these three layers produce leaders who can design systems, engage people, chart a path forward, and execute competently. My mind is a more holistic approach to what I need of leaders, how I develop leaders across all three of those layers, uh, where we can assess people, maybe where some of their strengths are or where their weaknesses are. It's helpful in a lot of different ways, but I think it's helpful to look at it holistically and say, yeah, I need management skills, I need leadership skills, I need them together, but also recognizing that they're distinct. So, quick pause. I wanted to say, or maybe acknowledge, like, at this point you may be asking this question of like, does this actually all matter? Um, so arguably yes. I, I'd say yes, this absolutely matters. Um, so in response to that, though, I do want to cover a few reasons of why this matters real quick. Um, first, management creates capacity. Without solid management, leadership can collapse under the weight of chaos and urgency. So management as a practice and the activities associated with it, does things like frees up time, energy and attention so that leaders and teams can focus on what truly matters. Discipline. Management, though important, is not the end. However, I want to emphasize this, like being really good at management and having disability management skills and all this kind of stuff. It's important, but it is not the end. It is a means for us to create the capacity necessary to achieve a value based and sought after end. So we use management to be effective, to be efficient, to create capacity for us as individuals and leaders, but also as the organization so that we can add value and achieve great things. Second benefit and second reason why this matters. Like leadership creates clarity and focus. Again, ideology, the fact that time and attention are finite and so leadership decides what matters, what doesn't, and where effort should go. Without clarity, teams will burn out energy without making progress, or maybe worse, making progress towards things that don't ultimately matter. Third reason why this matters. Leadership creates belonging and care. When people feel seen, valued and connected to a purpose, they care. And when they care, they commit themselves. And when they commit, performance follows and we can achieve great things as a group. And then fourth, last, uh, thing to kind of look at maybe why this matters, or at least my argument of why this matters. Um, when taken together m leadership and management enable impact. One without the other produces either inspired chaos or just efficient emptiness. So real meaningful impact requires both. So now what? Um, here's how this becomes actionable. We're going to wrap up this discussion by looking at just a few recommendations for real life implementation of a holistic leadership management approach that, uh, you can start now both for yourself personally as well as your team. And so the first recommendation is to just lead yourself first. Your personal management practices will ripple and magnify outward. If you're inefficient and unable to kind of control your own chaos, it's going to ripple out and it's going to magnify across your team. But if you're disciplined, structured and well managed leading yourself first, that positively will ripple up and out, or excuse me, ripple out and magnify. So manage your time, your energy and your attention with discipline so that your team can, uh, operate with clarity and with confidence. This is like implementing tools and processes necessary to effectively stay on top of your time, your activities and your tasks and then do the same for your team. The impacts of inefficiency will magnify as it ripples down and out, as we just said. And so employ the basic management tools and practices to get organized yourself so that you can ripple positively down and out across your team. So number one, lead yourself first. Number two, develop yourself intentionally. No one is going to naturally do this for you. So do not wait for some senior leader to come and like feed you development like you're some baby bird. Map your strengths and gaps across management, leadership and expertise. Those three Layers of the triangle. Lean into what you do well and add value to the team, the organization through those. But then deliberately develop your gaps and your needs. Employ an integration of power developmental strategies like goal setting, mentoring and coaching relationships, maybe even like over use the over expanding world of knowledge like books, articles, podcasts, et cetera. You can use all of those tools towards your own development. And we've talked about all of those on this show. So start with one thing, a specific behavior, a skill or an attitude. Learn about it, practice it, seek feedback and iterate and then move on to the next one for this like long term continuous stair stepped approach to improvement. So that's number two, develop yourself intentionally as well. And you can use that um, leader requirements triangle to help you organize those strengths and those developmental needs. Number three, you can surface the management gap. In leadership heavy cultures, um management skills are often kind of like subtly undervalued and thus underdeveloped. So in turn people are quietly forced to develop those important skills on their own, on the job with little form or guidance. And we've talked about before, like my own career has lived up to that example. In 16 years, no person, school, organization has formally taught me on management skills. They've all been developed through just hard fought on the job training and self study. Uh, I'd argue like that's not okay and it's probably not a sustainable or successful approach. It creates a despairing deficit in the management skills across the organization where people quietly hide and kind of quote unquote fake it due to insufficient skills as they move up the organizational chain. So ultimately this results in overall organizational inefficiency. So use your voice to publicize the value of management skills and normalize learning them. And again, you don't have to sit here and wait for someone to solve your problem for you either. You can do this within your own sphere of influence and within the things that you can impact. So how is you as a formal leader or manager at whatever level, how can you work to maybe develop the needs, maybe it's management needs within of your direct reports, within your own team in your context of what you can control. So number three, surface the management gap and I'd also argue is like fill it yourself where and how you can. Number four, um, recommendation here is to balance development across all three domains. We've kind of alluded to this throughout the episode so far, especially these recommendations to this point. But assess your team's current needs. Where are you over uh, invested in developmental focus? Where are the gaps? Are we like Too much in the leadership, not enough in the management. We strictly focus on like, technical and tactical expertise of things. And we don't really spend any time or effort working on people's leadership skills or management skills. So analyze it and then after analyzing it, adjust accordingly, either at your own level, I. E. What you can control, or by finding an opportunity to fill the gap up the chain. So this is a short practical application point, but really all I'm saying here is just don't be a victim of your situation or your environment. If you see developmental gaps or opportunities, you can and should do something about it. And then number five, uh, last recommendation here as uh, we wrap up the episode is to use simple management tools consistently. Like, this is no, there's no secret sauce. There's no like, hidden checklist of things that's going to make us successful. It is effective management through simple and consistent and disciplined use of tools. So effective management often looks like a clear owner who runs a repeatable process through a visible platform. I'm going to say this again, effective management. And I would say effective management oftentimes we use this like, nebulous sort of like systems. Um, it can kind of be abstract or can be unachievable or something, but it's not within our reach. But effective management, ie, systems, often just looks like a clear owner, someone who owns the thing, who runs it on a repeatable process over and over through a visible platform that's accessible and visible. So really my mind, that's all the system really is. Okay, um, and so just like we talked about in recommendation number one, start with yourself. Implement your own systems and start with the basics. A calendar, a task tracking system, and then a predictable rhythm. And then when you're ready to have that at your own level, scale it up to your team and beyond. So in conclusion, um, I'd just say, like, let's just choose integration over illusion here. Leadership without management feels inspiring, but it doesn't last. Management without leadership feels efficient, but it doesn't matter. So the leaders who create real, sustained impact are, uh, those who don't choose between the two. They integrate them, they develop both of them, and they model them for others as well. So here's your call to action. Take an honest look at your own practice. Where are you over relying on inspiration and under investing in structure? Or maybe where are you managing well but failing to lead with meaning? So find one developmental need. Pick one. Maybe the one that could have the most impact or most immediate improvement on your impact in your role in your organization. And then pick like a concrete change tied to that one system to tighten up or maybe one leadership behavior strengthened and then commit to it for a week. So don't settle by being inspired but ineffective and then build a capacity to lead and manage well. So just start with one thing. Work on it, like I said, learn about it, practice it, get feedback, reflect, iterate. Um, and then we're gonna move on to the next one. So that's it for the today's exploration in this episode. Um, I hope it was helpful. I know this was a bit of a nuanced exploration between this dichotomy of leadership and management, and it was kind of talked a lot about a lot of different things both between the Triangle model, um, the recommendations, why it's beneficial and stuff. But I hope you're able to take away maybe a little bit of nugget of truth and or help for action, uh, from this episode. Um, but as you go though, uh, I do ask, maybe consider giving the show a like and review on whatever platform you listen to. Um, if you're not subscribed to 3x5 Leadership via email, you can do that on our welcome page link there to do that is in the show notes. Um, doing that is just a simple way to add some developmental value to your inbox every week. There's no spam, no games, kind of nothing like that. All we want to do is just add value to your inbox and help you grow every single week. So that's it. Thanks again for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found this valuable. I hope you were able to take away something from this and put it into action this week and to improve your leadership and then ultimately your impact on others. So, as always, uh, until next episode, friends, please take care and leave well,