Your Brand Is Invisible in AI Search. Here's What You Can Do About It

Speaker A: AI agents are only as strong as the data that they're given. When provided with an outdated dataset, your agents could end up doing more harm than good. But not with denodo. With an AI data layer built within your platform, your agents are provided with real time data changes. So with denodo, your agents can finally make the right business decisions. Simply visit denodo.com to learn more. What if everything you've ever been told about winning in AI search is wrong? And um, while many businesses are racing to produce more content in the hope of appearing in AI generated answers because that's where their customers are hanging out now, my guest today will argue that they're actually solving the wrong problem. Her name is Kathleen Lucente and she's the founder of Red Fan Communications. And she's going to argue today that trust, reputation and earned credibility. How all these things matter far more than just publishing more words online. So if you're wondering why some brands keep showing in chat, GPT, Claude and Google AI's results, well, yours and others remain invisible. And you want to understand why that is happening. You're going to enjoy this conversation today, but I don't want to reveal any spoilers. It's a cracking conversation this and I want to beam your ears directly into our conversation. So buckle up and hold on tight as I introduce you to Kathleen right now. So thank you for joining m me on the podcast today. Can you tell everyone listening a little about who you are and what you do?

Speaker B: Sure, Neil. First, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm Kathleen Lucente and I'm the CEO and founder of Red Fan Communications based in Austin, Texas. And what we do, and what I do is I helped uh, B2B tech companies make sure that when things are on the line, their reputation is already working, uh, for them long before. So we've built the ramp, the pr, the marketing, we've established the messaging and built the reputation that will help, uh, them, you know, withstand any kind of major issues that might come their way.

Speaker A: Awesome. Well, it's a pleasure to have you sit down with me today. There's so much I want to talk about. We go back what a decade. Amazon introduced everyone to the one click checkout and it makes our life so much easier. We can literally do anything we want in one click. But of course, more recently there's been a lot of discussion around the rise of zero click search and AI generated answers and how we get ourselves, our uh, organization to appear in those results because that's where people are looking for information. But as a result, many companies are going out there and just producing even more content. But do you think they're solving the wrong problem here?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that content, ah, without a strategy has always been a problem. Um, unfortunately. And there was this false sense that if you put more out, somehow that was going to establish your brand and do all this work for you and be the muscle. And so there's, unfortunately, we've all heard about AI slop and people kind of just pumping out tons of content. What I would say is content is something you say about yourself, but authority is what other people say about you. And AI has learned to tell the difference. And so the key here is really building a framework around, you know, the messaging around your company having true thought leaders that are out there, the humans that are actually writing content, being in speaking engagements and all that good stuff. Because what's happening is, uh, you know, right now the LLMs are looking for, okay, what is this? What's on Neil's LinkedIn page? Now I'm going to go look at his website. Now I'm going to go look at his blog. Now I'm going to see does this triangulation, is this a real human? Does he say the same things? Does he say something unique? And does he really, does his brand identity really pull together? And so people are not using Google to do a search, to do their homework. They're really using their LLM or whichever one that they use. Claude, it could be any of the ChatGPT to do their homework. And so if you're not coming up there, it becomes a big problem. And so that's the big issue, uh, for most companies and sales teams are starting to see that this is the problem. The funnel is no longer the funnel. It's like spaghetti. People are coming in from different angles and they're like, how did they find us? Oh, they found us through Claude. Well, that means marketing's doing a great job because they've been influencing the LLMs. Um, but the one click is no longer, you know, no longer the answer.

Speaker A: And I must admit, when AI platforms have generated answers, for me, it does seem that they favor certain brands, uh, leaders or organized organizations over others. So on behalf of everybody listening here, what are the signals that these systems are actually looking for and, and why does earned credibility maybe m, uh, more than many marketers realize, especially when being on the front page of Google might not have the same relevance as it used to have.

Speaker B: You know, we've dug into this a lot, Neil, because, uh, what's Happening is a lot of chief marketing officers and, uh, VPs of marketing are being, uh, inundated by, uh, AI tool companies who are saying, buy this and you'll know exactly where you stand. Well, a score is not going to solve the problem. You need a blueprint for how to fix how your brand is showing up. The good news is you can be a small company competing against a big company and still win this battle because the playing field is different. You're not just winning on buying Google Ads, which you're still, still relevant, but you're not just putting all your cash over in this one place. The areas that we are seeing as the areas that need to be measured, and we've actually created a tool for this, are, uh, seven areas that we look to measure. One is earned media. Earned media is one of the highest things that AI is looking at. Uh, the next is recognition, company recognition. Are you being recognized with awards? Ah, are you getting, uh, are your reviews up to date? A lot of people stopped going to review sites, but AI actually looks at review sites. And if your reviews are really old, then you start to get discounted. So you need to make sure your, the review sites are actually up to snuff. Um, you want entity coherence. Is everything hanging together? And this is pretty basic. Like, if your press releases say you're one thing, your website says you're a different thing. And your executives, LinkedIns, which also have a lot of authority, says something else. Your tagline is totally different. Or you keep changing the language around your company because you're just fiddling too much. Um, you're actually messing with your score in AI, um, content authority is also a big one. So how are you showing up in content, social authority and then technical readiness? This is just, I would say, table stakes. Is your website, is it set up for being able to be read by the LLMs? Right. So we look at those seven, uh, areas, and we actually help measure those for our clients and give them a score and then help them understand how to, if they're weak in certain areas, where they need to go make those improvements.

Speaker A: And before you join me on the podcast today, I was also reading how you've argued that the brands that are appearing in those AI generated responses, they didn't get there overnight. And I think that is such an important reminder there. But what does that journey to becoming an authoritative source, what does that actually look like? And again, for leaders listening, how should companies expect it to take? Because it's not as simple as, like you say, just google adwords etc. Or looking for a shortcut. How long should it take?

Speaker B: You know, honestly the, the reality is it's quarters, not weeks to do this. So you, the, you know, there's a slowness to this, but there's a m. I, uh, would say a methodology to doing it. So you have to trust in the methodology. You also have to educate. If you're a chief marketing officer, you have to educate your management team on this because they're going to keep coming to you asking, how are we showing up in AI? How are we showing up? You have to actually own that conversation and educate them on this. On the 7 Catego, you have to be able to show them how you're showing up in those seven areas versus your competition and then show them. Here's what we're doing in marketing to really build up our authority across these seven areas. So there's no fast version of this. But if we were quick, your competitor, your competitor would already have it, had done it already, right? Like they would have been like, okay, this is easy, I'll just throw some money at it. You actually have to build that framework and have a marketing and communications team. You have to um, involve your sales team in getting those reviews up and fresh in a consistent manner. So it takes pulling the right people together, uh, to look at those seven areas and then create accountability within your company and saying, hey, every quarter we're going to have this many new reviews on our review sites. Every, uh, we're going to have customer success stories, we're going to have, you know, we're going to make sure that we've got three spokespeople that are in the press on a regular basis. We're going to be, you know, we're not going to be living and dying just on press releases because those are not going to save the day. So it's true. Truly creating sort of a measured structure. And then um, I believe you can really get this within three to four quarters, you're going to see a big difference. Everything you do right now with AI is going to build you for the next three years. So it's actually what you're seeing in AI today started about two and a half years ago. So companies are in catch up mode. If they weren't actually building this out, they need to start right now.

Speaker A: And uh, many B2B tech companies, they've invested heavily in SEO, content marketing, paid acquisition, and you made so many great points there. So how do you see the rise of AI mediated search engine, uh, changing the rules of Visibility. And you must see a lot of people or organizations making the same mistakes. So anything that they should be particularly rethinking now?

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I really see people thinking that maybe there's just like one. They're going to vote, you know, all their money on one magic, you know, uh, wand. Right. And that's, they're, they're getting kind of wooed by, you know, various vendors calling and saying, if you just do this, if you just put all your money in this. The truth is, SEO got you found as a company. Um, I don't deny that. I think that's still very true. It still gets you cited. Right. But we're talking about different muscles. We're talking about most teams have only trained that one SEO muscle. Now they have to train these seven areas and they have to actually realize, uh, they have to work in partnership with, for example, sales to get customer success stories. They've got to work with the sales team to get those review sites up and fresh on a regular basis. So the accountability isn't like, okay, we're just going to call our SEO ad partner and throw more money at this and save the day. Most of us have seen those ads that say this company versus this company the top in, uh, a Google search. That was the fight everyone was trying to fight. They would put pit their competitor against each other, you know, in a Google Ad. And that's going to be so passe. Um, it's. But, but many people are still putting all their dollars there. And, uh, that's not going to be the thing that wins the day anymore. Um, it's really going to be building the authority that you should have been building all along. And I think that unfortunately for some companies, they thought, well, we'll just use an AI tool, we'll have an intern, we'll just crank out a lot of content and that will save the day. It's not.

Speaker A: And, um, so many great points again. And if we zoom out, uh, for a moment and we can tell you, I think it's easy to see that so much has changed and so much stays the same. And when I was researching you, looking back throughout your career, it's easy to see you've helped so many companies through IPOs, acquisitions, major funding rounds, and periods of rapid growth. But again, looking back, what role did reputation play in business success? And why is it so often underestimated until it's needed? It's like almost buying a burger alarm, isn't it? It's not until somebody gets burgled that they Then go out and think about it. But why is it so often underestimated?

Speaker B: I think that we're, um, as humans, we've gotten so used to that one click or Netflix or everything kind of on tap, and we've lost track of the fact that trust is a really key word. Um, and there's a lot of lack of trust right now, um, because of all the content that's out there and how bombarded people are. And so I think today reputation is in some ways the cheapest insurance you'll never see working until it's the only thing holding a deal together, for example. Um, and a good example would be, I have brought companies public on the New York stock exchange and NASDAQ. I've also. And I've done that through a traditional IPO where you have 22 months, you know, three years to build a reputation, right? And by the time you're on the stage, which is really just kind of the beginning of where things start to get interesting, where you're ringing the bell and you're excited, now you're part of a public company now you gotta walk the walk, right? And so if you've had the time to build that reputation and you've done the right thing, everything from how you treat your employees, uh, what your internal communications are, how your employees feel about you, because, because that's really on the outside. It's not hidden. Um, you know, if, if, you know, we've seen employees today, if something is wrong and their executive is sending out nasty notes or something like that, it'll be in the news the next day. You know, uh, not that that you should be living in fear for, that you should be a good person to begin with with your employees. But I think that trust and who you are and how you, how you handle yourself as, as your executive, who you hire, who you fire, how you handle whether the down. If you have to have a downturn and you have to lay people off, how you handle that? I've watched people do things really well. I've watched things people do really with poorly. And the people who kind of have a sense about them, that people trust that they are emotionally connected to the people around them, that they care about, uh, the industry that they're not just here to make a buck. They tend to, uh, withstand a lot more. And I think that executive teams, uh, that have the time to build through to a going public where the longer period of time makes a big difference. I've also been on the other side where it's a spac where a company suddenly decides to go public in less than three months and they have not had the time to build that brand authority or that trust. Right. And investors are also on penny stocks and they're wanting their money back. They haven't built a relationship with the brand they're looking at as a major financial windfall. And so there's a very big difference on how those people are going to react to how you're going public. If it goes well, if it doesn't go well, and it's very, very different. And if your executive team hasn't had a chance to establish themselves m with the media, with employees, with investors, it's just a lot harder slog. So I would say building that reputation and building the ramp on that, I would never underestimate that. I really wouldn't.

Speaker A: And, um, for organizations and indeed people listening that are listening to the conversation today, thinking, I get it, we need to build authority, where should they be focusing their efforts? Maybe one thing we can agree on, it's not just calling yourself a thought leader on LinkedIn, it's much more complicated than that. But is it media coverage, analyst relationship, original research, podcasts, industry events, or a mixture of those things or something else entirely? What should they be focusing on?

Speaker B: I, um, think that, well, it is interesting. I mean, I think that, you know, people say authority can't be measured, but it can. Yeah. I think the reality is that we just stopped accepting the trust me kind of, you know, attitude that people have. Just trust me. Um, I believe that companies need to build, build, ah, towards the reputation that they know their clients will care to engage with and they need to be very much involved in understanding. And so one of the things I love to see is when a CEO comes on board and they go out and do, um, like a listening tour. So instead of just sitting and of course they're going to talk to their executive team, but they actually go and meet with customers and they're looking at things with a different lens than the rest of the team. They're looking at it from, well, tell me, what are your real pain points? And bringing that back and being able to then write a Forbes article about, here's what I'm really hearing and here's why we're running the company this way. Or this listening tour helped to influence how we're, uh, changing the features and the tools that we're creating. Um, that connection, that sense of connection versus being in a bubble is really, really important to showing that there's actual listening happening. Um, and that it's not just, I'm going to create this thing and then here we go. You know, um, so I think that trust factor, building trust is underrated, uh, absolutely underrated. And you, you asked like you threw out a whole bunch of different ways that people can build trust. NEIL M. It's different for every company, right? So if you're a company that is in the high tech industry and uh, you haven't built relations with the analyst firms, uh, you need to do that. In fact, it's one of the best ways to learn what the analysts are hearing out in the industry and for you to have a dialogue about. We're creating this, this is where it fits within that industry. And then when you go talk to the press, you also have more information and you've built a relationship. And you can say to a reporter, I, uh, just briefed Forrester on this, if you want to talk to so and so over there. So it's starts to show that you're actually building kind of, you're not trying to do this in a fast method. You actually are trying to do things in the right way. So there is a right way and a wrong way. There's some people who just kind of go straight to press releases and they don't kind of build out what's the narrative that we need to have. Who are going to be the three executives that are me out there talking? Um, what is the topic they're going to own? What do we want to say that's different versus what our competition is saying? Um, how are we going to build out a framework that allows us to have a quarterly focus? And who's going to be getting the speaking engagements? Like you said, who's going to be on the podcast? That's a whole organizational effort that marketing has to take on. But the executives have to be willing to be part of that and rewarded for doing it as well, quite frankly, because it takes a lot of work.

Speaker A: And I think one challenge many business leaders face is that reputation building can feel difficult to measure compared to advertising or lead generation. And already in our conversation today, I think you've dispelled that myth and talked about how it is easier to measure now. But in your work, how do you help organizations connect brand authority to very tangible business outcomes and long term growth? Because I think that's where the magic is there.

Speaker B: There's so many interesting ways we've done that. Um, I love, like for example, we had a client, uh, that was wanting to break through to different, uh, customers and we started asking them about the data that they had. And they turned out to have all the building index data across the United States by state. So we could actually help them, uh, build what we called the remodeling index. And we started to. First we did our homework to see did Home Depot or any other big company have the ownership of this? And nobody did. And then we actually created this remodeling index and we put out a press release, a very short press release, uh, each month that said, year over year, here's what's going on. And I told the executive team, you know, it's going to take a little while for us to get traction. Just hang in there. On month one, we had CNBC calling, asking if they could have graphs. On month two, we had, you know, uh, some of the real estate, uh, publications, uh, calling, asking if they could, could understand what was going on with remodeling specifically in Florida. And soon that started to create interest in the larger insurance companies who wanted to know, hey, we should get this data because we might be overinsuring or underinsuring properties in these states where hurricanes and things like that are happening. And so they were able a direct line to revenue, uh, and the customers that they were hoping to attract. So the PR effort we did actually led directly to conversations and opening doors that were not opening, um, from sales, um, previously. That's just a great example, right when you really bring things together and you say, how what are we trying to achieve here? To me that's one of the great examples. Not everyone has that. I, um, do believe having third party, uh, data that you can put out or research that you can put out, and having a spokesperson who can own that is really, really helpful for companies today. Um, but that's just one of many examples I think we have to customize with each client and we tend to start with that brand narrative work. So we start with brand narrative work. We interview people internally, we interview customers externally. We do a full competitive analysis. We also apply our uh, Brand Authority Index, which is our AI measurement, uh, tool across those seven categories. And we then bring that back and say, here's where you are, here's where we think you can really break through. Here's what we heard your customers think is different about you. And then now we can build a blueprint for how to take you forward and build out a, uh, hand selected. You don't have to do everything. It's not every channel has to be lit up. It's which channels are going to be the right channels for you to find those Conversations and open up more doors.

Speaker A: Absolutely love it. And if I was to double click on that, try and get some free advice for everyone listening there. If you were advising B2B Tech Company that was starting today, what practical steps would you take, uh, over the next 12 months to maybe increase the likelihood that both humans and AI systems recognize them as trusted authority in their field? I know it's not as simple as that, but any, uh, point as you

Speaker B: would give them there, Well, I really try to help. Um, we have a philosophy and a method. It's called the position to win method. And it's been successful for well over 18 years with our clients. And it's because what we do is we embed ourselves. So that first month we're doing that brand, uh, authority checking, we're doing that brand narrative work. You know, just because you say you're the coolest kid on the block doesn't mean everyone thinks you are. And I'm going to validate that. And remember, I'm a former journalist, so I'm pretty snarky about that. And I do that to protect you as my client. I want to make sure before we go out there, someone doesn't come over and give you a good smack in the nose because you think you're the coolest kid and you're not. Um, I want to make sure you can stand up and your muscles are real. Right. So I'm going to make sure that I prepare you for that. I'm going to prepare you to have the coolest lunchbox, you know, the coolest backpack, the coolest narrative, you know, and the best one liners. Right. Um, but we're going to get out there and have something and you're going to be very smart about what's going on with the competition. I'm also going to do a full analysis of what's going on in the press because you might think you know what's going on in the press that covers you, but I'm going to show you here, here's what they're really writing about and here's what you're talking about. Here's where you could fit in. Uh, and so that they can really understand that. I find a lot of companies, uh, say they want to be in the press, but they're not even reading the trade publications that they're in. They might not even have subscriptions, uh, to all of them. Believe it or not, we probably have more than they do, uh, in many cases. And so, so we're really bringing it to them and saying hey, wait a second. That's actually not accurate. Here's what American Banker is writing about, or here's what the analysts at, uh, Cornerstone or Forrester are actually saying. And we bring that together so that we can have a real huddle. And that first month is all about having a reality check and then having a war plan for how we're going to move forward. And so then we kind of move into campaigning around, uh, building out a customized campaign. So keeping in mind that first 30 days is really where you want to get your act together. It's not, hey, I'm hiring a PR firm. Let's get press releases out and let's hit the street. It's rarely that on occasion somebody shows up with a funding announcement and we need to hit it fast. But we're still going to say, we'll get this out, but then we need to do this work because you can't just keep doing what you've been doing. It hasn't been working for you. So a reality check, uh, war room. We're going to do it. We're going to embed ourselves. We're going to diagnose what's going on with you. We're going to then build that roadmap, get out on the street and execute on something that's going to really lift the boat.

Speaker A: Awesome. And finally, before I let you go on a personal note, my research revealed that you have recently launched a brand new podcast. Tell me more about it, the story behind that launch and what listeners can expect from that too.

Speaker B: Sure. Oh, wow, Neil, you are way too nice. I love that. I basically, uh, it's interesting. Red Fan is in Austin, Texas, and we're in a historic building that was built in 1892. It was the first home of the very first editor of the first newspaper in Austin. So it is the home of media, you know, here in Texas. Uh, and so we love being in the building. And I realized that we should have our own podcast. And we call it. It, uh, under the Tent. We call it under the Tent because that's what we do with our clients. We get under the Tent when it's a merger acquisition. We want to be in early and helping to write those stakeholder messaging and get that, get everything organized for not just the press release, but how communication is going to happen internally and externally. And so we call it under the Tent. And I bring in people who I think are going to really enlighten my clients on everything from how to get prepared for a cybersecurity attack and make sure you're ready if you have a breach. Who's in your corner? Uh, a data scientist on why you might want to uh, have somebody come in and digest all your sales data and help have a reality check on who your ICP really is, your super consumer, who you want to target and a number of other great people like that. So it's just in its infancy, but you can come find it@redfancommunications.com or on our YouTube channel. So I look forward to uh, have producing more and uh, following your lead, Neil.

Speaker A: Oh, bless you. So I will include a link so people can go out there and check the podcast if anyone wants to learn more about redfan or connect with you. Any other uh, links or websites you'd like me to point everyone?

Speaker B: I would highly recommend. We have been putting on a free webinar. Uh, it's called owning the AI conversation and we'll have another one in about four weeks. It's a 60 minute working session and you can uh, find that@redfancommunications.com and sign up and get on the waiting list. Uh, but it has been very, very enlightening for people to either figure out how to go measure that on their own or use our service. Uh, and everyone who comes on to that, uh, gets a discount if they choose to work with us. So we look forward to seeing more of you there. Also, follow me on LinkedIn because I'm pretty active over there, so just. Kathleen Lucente.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Uh, well, I've loved chatting with you today about why the zero click shift isn't primarily a content problem, why every company trying to solve it with content is going to be sadly disappointment. But from the opportunity side of things, the brands showing up in those AI generated answers built that position through earned media credibility over the years. And that is not a strategy you can sprint. Busted so many myths along the way as well, in particular about that measurement around authority and reputation. But I, uh, will include links to everything that you mentioned. I encourage people listening to check it out, including your podcast. I'll be listening for sure. But thank you for sharing your insights today. Appreciate your time.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: So many big takeaways there. Uh, and I think Kathleen made a compelling case that authority isn't something you can just manufacture overnight. And, and the brands leading AI search today are the ones that have spent years earning trust through consistent credibility rather than just chasing shortcuts. So if today's conversation has made you think differently about how you or your business is preparing for that AI era, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Are companies placing too much emphasis on content and not enough on reputation and trust and earned media? Let me know. As always, Tech Talks Network.com you'll find links to everything that we've talked about today in the blog post associated with this episode over there. But more than anything, thank you for listening to this episode and getting all the way to the end as well. Hopefully you'll drop by and I can speak with you again real soon. Thanks for listening. Bye for now. It.