The Leadership Playbook for a Digital World: Authenticity, Growth and AI

Speaker A: How is leadership evolving in today's digital world? In this episode, we explore the question with May Lam, CIO at Australian Payments Plus. Throughout our conversation, we discuss essential leadership qualities and the importance of personal attributes in an ever changing landscape. Especially when we take into consideration the rapid growth of AI May brings a wealth of experience from a fascinating career, offering valuable insights into senior leadership and key career lessons. Stay tuned for a captivating discussion.

Speaker B: Tech Reimagined Redefining the relationship between people and technology Brought to you by Andava. This is Tech Reimagined.

Speaker A: Welcome back to Tech Reimagined. I'm Wes Fagan and this is part two of the conversation we started last Thursday with Mayland. Uh, I'm joined by Natalie Probitz in co host role. How are you, Natalie?

Speaker C: I'm good, thank you Wes. And how are you? How are you finding the podcast?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's not too bad. I mean we take a couple of cuts, but we'll get there. And welcome back. Mae, thanks for joining us.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me back.

Speaker C: So you've built quite a unique career which spans, uh, technology, finance and transformation. Was there a specific moment or experience that sparked your interest in those areas?

Speaker B: So I won't say a particular moment, um, or experiences, but ever since I was a little girl, I always curious about science and mathematics subjects and I always love to disassemble and assemble different things from simple things like a pad to uh, more complex, intricate things like a clock. And I find that it's fascinating of how all the different jigsaw come together and make it work and always wonder how things work and any way to improve or repurpose them. So I think that sparked the interest in technology, um, for financial services and banking. They actually started also early stage and I witnessed that how my parents, um, struggle in their business in the 80s and how the bank couldn't really help them and I didn't understand why. And it taught me a really invaluable lesson, um, all ingrained in my mind that not all population being served and they are not equal in the eye of financial services and the financial uh, services not necessarily to value their customer equally the same. So that's simply why I want to understand as I grow up. So I always draw to the interest of how the banking system work, how financial services work, how people pay and getting paid. And that's part of the interest of me in the financial services. I just really want to make a positive impact and bring more financial inclusion for everyone, especially the underserved population.

Speaker C: Um, and was There a specific moment in your career that changed everything for you or that took you towards the position that you're in today.

Speaker B: I think that it is very intentional. I won't say it's accidental in my career and it's a very intentional evolution of my career. So I can share a few. Um, the first one is that when I study uni, uh, studied bachelor of Science, um, in um, information Technology, and later on Master of Commerce. Since then I always wanted to be a cio. And I, uh, worked really hard. I was very curious. I built my network and at the age of 29 I became an enterprise architect. So for that moment I thought, oh, that's like I'm, um, going, I'm um, always one way up and uh, in no time I will be cio. And I took a mentor at a time he said to me, may, with your trajectory where you're going, you will never be a cio.

Speaker C: That's uh, that's quite difficult feedback to hear. How did you react?

Speaker B: So that was a moment that I, it was very hard for me to understand, to accept, but that was also the moment and one of the pivotal moment that I had that I changed from a technology focused role to a, uh, finance focused role. So I moved into being a, um, senior finance manager for understanding the project finance perspective. But it's like how decision being made, what are the business case, what problem we are solving, what are the risks, what are the products, who are the customer, what are the segments that we're serving? Is that bringing that lens to it? I think that contributed one of the reason why I became who I am today.

Speaker C: It sounds like that one moment was a bit of a course correction for you. Were there other moments that you stopped to think about whether you were on the right course to achieve your ambitions to become a cio.

Speaker B: The other moment I would say is the uh, opposite side. So I was, my career was going really well without really planning. Seven years later I was still in finance role. And that was a moment that with the same mentor, he reminded me, may, where are you going now? I thought that you want to be a CIO and what is your plan? So at the time I didn't really have a plan of how to go back to technology. And I was a bit scared of going back to technology. So I reached out to another mentor of mine. She was a, uh, CIO when I was very young, Yan, or the company that I work for. And then I said that I need some good narrative for me to go back to technology. And then she was like, what do you mean by going back? Aren't you always in technology you just play different role, you have different perspective, you have different conversation. But the goals and the purpose that you deliver, ah, still the same focus on that one. Don't focus on things that uh, you don't have. Focus on the thing that, what you have gained. And then the next thing I knew that I was the divisional cio, so I head up the technology for a, uh, local small bank.

Speaker A: It's really interesting that the, I guess you took a major risk there, uh, in your career because you were, you were tracking one way and then you had that conversation obviously with that mentor of yours. How did you feel or what was your risk appetite at that stage, uh, in terms of taking such a change, saying, okay, I'm on this trajectory with technology and now I need to jump off now and go into senior finance. And you alluded to it all being a calculated and tactical kind of approach. Did you feel risk? Was it scary for you?

Speaker B: It was very scary. So I did study accounting and finance at uni and that was it. So like I did use it, but it's not in the role. So I was hesitated to pivot to the roles. And the risk that I calculate is that I do really want to be a cio and if this is what it takes, I would do it. So again, that's, I'm always curious, so I, ah, ask questions. When I don't have answer, I ask more questions. So I really do believe that the uh, better the question, the better the answer. So that drives me that and also the mentality that it's great that something I don't know and how can I learn from others? How can I use, uh, my transferable skills and experiences to help me to be successful in that pivotal moment.

Speaker A: Did you have an ideal CIO in your mind? You seem locked into that CIO trajectory. Was there someone that you were looking to and saying, yes, this is what I want to be.

Speaker B: Yeah. So it's great question. Um, two fronts. One, I was tracing the title. I learned a great deal from that lessons, um, because I didn't understand why to be a cio. And then also I do have role models. I look at them, they are the source of my inspiration and I just want to be like them. But then again, that's at a time that I didn't know. So the first time that I became the head of technology, I was 38. So now, like journey on 10 years later, this is the third gig that I became a CIO, it was very different for very different reason that now I can back myself the why, who I am, and also more importantly, who I'm not.

Speaker C: What was it about the CIO role that drew you to it? Rather than, you know, why not CEO, why not cfo? What was it about that role?

Speaker B: It's the technology. So very early on in my life, um, I realized that the technology can drive to a lot of solutions and it's the, uh, center of innovation and everyone needs different sort of technology and it's a fast growing industry. So the title of CIO that gave me that license of making decisions, that's what I thought from the beginning. That, okay, I'm going to be leading a team of technologists and I can make their decisions and I can provide an environment that they can feel fulfilled and they can unleash all the capability. So that was the first time that the original thought of what is cio, but then later on then realized that that's not the total picture of it.

Speaker C: I was going to say, does the reality match up to your expectations for the first time?

Speaker B: No, no, because I actually I was, like I said I was chasing the title, didn't understand what the true CIO is about. The true cio, to me now it is a business leader. So yes, technology is wonderful. It can be shining and um, it can be very exciting space. But then at the end of the day, it's about what the problem that we're solving, who are the receiver, who are the beneficiary of that product and services and whether there's a business case. You can build beautiful products, but are you looking for the problem to your solution or your way of solving the solution? And I think, um, the lessons taught me a lot about technology. It is a, uh, capability, but it's not the answer to everything.

Speaker A: So May, what does a, uh, regular day look like for you? What are some of your favorite things about your role and what do you look forward to when you head into the office?

Speaker B: When I wake up in the morning, I am excited to go to work. So first thing is that if I'm not excited to go to work, I think that is something wrong and I will have to address it. So I think the most exciting for me to go to work is that to see the people understand, uh, that last week that we talked a lot about the people and how people meet technology. And I think it is true that there's no business without people. I see that every single business is about people. So the first most thing that I'M excited is about seeing the team and what's my day to day look like. I would say that my diary is fully packed, but it's with intention and as a CIO that it is here to drive the business forward, to drive the business strategy, the plan into the future. So my day in, day out, uh, the conversation that I have is quite wide. Have different stakeholders, whether it's internal and external. So from the internal perspective, yes, the business delivery and how the team actually work together. So the exact team spend a lot of time together to align and also understand what are the key challenges and opportunities for the week to come and how can we get our team to work together closer. And then the other area is that to understand uh, what are the new risks that imposed to our business and whether those risks with appetite statement or not and how can we react to it, respond to it or plan for the future. And then the other area that's also day in, day out is understand that our stakeholder group so that to keep them warm, keep them informed and also service up the things that we need to service up to the board and, and to make sure that we are all aligned to achieve the goals together. Another area that is about our customer. So AP plus is a member firm, so we have a very diverse membership to understand what their needs are, to understand that their voice are being heard and being action and also take into consideration of the public interest as well. Because payment services and products are uh, touching every single one's life for the country. The other area will be about the outside in. So as a CIO is not always just about what is inside happening, but also uh, continuously to understand what's the market trend, what's happening in the market. So I'll be going out to talk to uh, my peers, understanding what's happening in their industry, in their company and bring those intel back to uh, the team. And last but not least very important as a technologist is that continuous learning. So every day I do carve out time to not uh, just read the news, but also learned what are the new things and what that actually meant and how can any company to leverage those new things to drive again the business strategy forward.

Speaker C: As a leader of AP plus, what leadership qualities or values do you live by?

Speaker B: The first one is authenticity. So to bring the full self in every day, whether it's uh, a tough day or it's a nice day. So it's just that the full self in every day. The other thing is that in this world of changing constantly, that's adaptability. So how can you have that adaptive muscle to lead a team, have the courage to change, uh, to make the decisions that is non negotiable because not making a decision is making a decision. And to drive the agility swiftly, that's the role as a business is being able to make decision in the turbulence, uh, world.

Speaker C: I like that point. Not making a decision is a decision in itself and it's probably not driving you in the right direction if you don't make that decision intentionally. Just to come back to your first value around living authentically. I admit when we first spoke I did look at your LinkedIn and I found a, uh, picture of you in a sequin jumpsuit. So would you say that um, you living authentically,

Speaker B: that is this is me. I like to bring the full self of me, uh, to the team so that it's not just a figure or executive that they look up to. I am a human. So um, I'm being a human. Let's have some fun. And I think the human connection is the key to the trust and that's the. Whether it's for team bonding or just having the chemistry to work together is very key. So um, that's me.

Speaker C: And do you find that putting that little bit of yourself out there that it helps you make new connections, build new relationships and that people don't come to you with a certain view of what a CIO should be?

Speaker B: Yeah, it does. I think that also give people the permission to be themselves as well. So I think it's important that setting the expectation. So it's not a traditional way that it's guarded and I'm always approachable to people. It's also a good icebreaker as well because um, it actually encourages a team to come forward and tell me about their stories and that actually lead to other conversations to understand further, understand what drives them, what are their motivation and how can I be a leader. Ah, to be part of their um, career trajectory.

Speaker A: So what you're saying is you have sequins Mondays where everyone comes in with sequins.

Speaker B: You see my wardrobe. I have also of colors and even different costume.

Speaker C: So Wes, are you going to wear your sequin jumpsuit for the next recording?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: Are you inspired?

Speaker A: I'm very inspired, yeah.

Speaker B: So any plus just celebrate our three years old birthday. And it's our tradition that we do make um, short frame to tell about the story of our roles. How do we contribute to our purpose. And in that film I was doing the dirty dance.

Speaker C: We've got to see this Film.

Speaker A: I think the title of this episode is, uh, payments and Sequencing.

Speaker C: So a question for you. Have you always lived like that in your role, or was there a mentor or someone that inspired you to, uh, bring your whole self to work?

Speaker B: So the first part of the question, I would say no. In my early part, I would say my first 10, 15 years is very guarded. So I will always dress professionally. I, uh, only wear suits. Even the Friday, casual Friday, I'll never be casual because I thought that the image is really important and I don't open myself too much. I don't tell people about my life. Um, even if I have, um, happy news or sad news happening in my life, in my personal life, I will not share. And it does have good things and the bad thing, because people always say that, oh, Mei, you're always so calm and it seems that you get everything together. Uh, but then it has the opposite side. Because of that. I thought the professionalism is great. But then I have comments saying to me that, may, we don't want to bother you because we feel like you will not understand. It seems that your life is so easy and straightforward, so you will not understand. You will not share the empathy. So we wouldn't share with you. So it only took one time that I'd be quite vulnerable to share what's happening in my life and how I felt about the occasion with the things that happening in my personal life that I, I show some emotion. And I didn't expect that it was well received then I didn't understand what's happening. So people like me to be weak. That's what I thought. But then I realized it's not because I brought a little bit of myself. I lower my iceberg a little bit more to let people know who I really am. And the miracle happened. Yeah. So. And I think that gave me the encouragement and also courage to, to be more authentic. This is tech reimagined,

Speaker A: mate. This goes back to a point that you were talking about in terms of, uh, one of your core principles was for it to go out and speak to some of your colleagues or peers and people that are in similar roles to you. What are some of the externalities or what are some of the changes that are on the horizon for CIOs. Are you seeing anything change specifically in the role?

Speaker B: Yes. So I see that there's a lot of CXOs happening. So CIO, that's the CTO, that's the, um, Chief Data Officer. Ah. Um, now it's Chief AI Officer. And of course the CISO role has been there for a while and all these things I think that it is related but then the world is changing to very delineate of like creating the C suite for the sake of creating C suite. That's how I feel. But is that. That's okay. But then how are we going to work together? Because if we're not clear about the roles, it's very hard for making decision and executive cast a long shadow and our people look up to us of how we work together. So I think that one change is that there's a lot of different CXOs um, happening and if any organization are not clear of what the role is about, what are the decision rights, what the authority, what the remit of those roles I think is introducing more challenges that opportunities. And the other thing that I also realized speaking to my peers, our uh, different CIO is that the agenda for CIOs is no longer just technology. It is a business world, especially technology. It is in the front and center of any innovation, any businesses. In other words, no businesses do not use technology these days. So CIO play a critical role. When things are working, it's a given. When things are not working, then it's always the CIO the first one to call. So it's how do you balance that narrative to bring that business lens? I think that is also changing and evolving. And then I think the third one is that the companies become like for example like FinTech, PayTech, a lot of companies it is a tech. So at the boardroom and the uh, C suite level there's a lot of technologists in the table. So that's how the CIO to be able to hold that presence and making sure the decision is still right and m driving that forward I think is also challenging too.

Speaker C: So how do you do that personally?

Speaker B: The first is keep learning. I would say that I don't need to have the order answer. I need to be comfortable that I can ask the right question and I'd be comfortable that I don't have the answer. And those questions are not being egoistic. So it's not going to show. Being smart of asking those questions is a genuine question. So I think that is first. The second one is that to understand more the business context. So technology, yes it is true be the biggest cost center for any company, especially a technology heavy company and probably not bring the revenue. So be comfortable of having those conversations of turning the cost into investment, into value to share with that view with the stakeholders so that everyone is online on the same page and then I think the third one really is back yourself. And maybe I am a woman or maybe it's my anesthesia background. I do have imposter syndrome. And is that the constant battle that I am facing? But also at the same time that to remind myself that I am in the role, I have already earned it, I'm um, operating in it. And yeah, I have the courage to push the agenda forward. That's making sure that every single decision and answer is for the good of the company, by the organization, by the organization's customer as well.

Speaker C: I always find the point about imposter syndrome quite interesting because it does come up quite a bit on these podcasts. You still feel imposter syndrome now even at your point in your career?

Speaker B: I do. So I don't know why, but I do. I constantly do believe that there's so many intelligent, experienced people in the world, in the industry, uh, am I good enough to lead, to share my view with my voice being heard. So it is real. But the good news is that I am aware of that and also talking about a mentor. So when I was very early on as a fresh grad in the late 90s, I got myself into a financial trouble. So I was a bit greedy and educated. I went into the margin lending and I lost a lot of money and I had to find way to pay the debt. And the one thing that I did was I got myself into the multi level marketing because that's a quick way for me to find extra income to pay the debt. But with that I think the one learning is that any problem is actually a blessing because there's so many solutions to a problem. So it's exciting to have that problem land on you because it is up to you to source those solutions to tackle the problem. So that's one. And the second one is back to the imposter syndrome is that I uh, learned about anyone that want to have anything. The sequence of having thing is about being, doing, having in this sequence and a lot of people is that doing, having and then um, being. So is that bringing myself, backing myself, reminding myself if I want to have something, I need to be that person first. By being the person it gravitates the right audiences and right mindset and also the network. So that also need to work hard and then you will have it. So it is a uh, constant reminder to myself that I am enrolled, I have already earned it, I don't need to add it anymore. It is about like executing to my role. So it's the way to relieve some of the imposter syndrome that I have.

Speaker C: It seems like you've got a, uh, mantra that you say to yourself when you feel a bit of doubt, is there anything else you do?

Speaker B: I do. So my mantra is dare to compete. So I constantly let myself know that if I don't put myself out there, if I'm not in the game, how can I actually do anything? So the first is really there to compete. The second one is that have a grateful heart. Like I said, a lot of people work really hard and they may never get to the position or the state that they want to be. I, uh, am fortunate to be where I am today and learn to be grateful. And then the third one is that be a service of others, pay forward. Because it's not about me. Leadership is never really about me. Leader is about the follower. And you cannot ask people to follow you. You earn your follower. So is that how you're going to pay forward? How can you learn your hard lessons so that others doesn't need to learn? They can skip that steps and learn something else and then they can pay forward too.

Speaker C: And was there an aha, uh, moment in your career where that sort of lesson came to you? Or, or is it something you've just learned along the way as you've been going through?

Speaker B: Learn along the way, but I also learn about where's the source of happiness. So career is a life journey, and I do identify myself with my career. It is part of my DNA. So if I don't get joy and happiness in my daily life and it doesn't last, so I learned to understand myself better, where do I get the energy from? And those are the things that give me the energy.

Speaker A: I'm curious where you will go with this question. So if you could speak to a younger version of yourself, what would you tell them today?

Speaker B: So, first of all, I won't change anything in my life and I actually would not change the course. Everything happens for a reason. And I have a lot of, uh, failure in my life. And I would not change that because they shape who I am today. Like, if I really have an opportunity to talk to my younger self, I would say to her that keep doing, like, keep believing it. Be a true believer, because it's because of her to get to who I am today. But also at the same time, I will remind her to be fearless because my fear factor when I was younger was so low. I have nothing to lose. So I can try everything. I can try anything. I can do silly things because I didn't know what the consequences were. And wonderful thing happened. And as I get older now I uh, trained, professionally trained to take calculated risk and those calculated risks possibly preventing me to achieve further maybe my 60 years old combat. Now we say that take more risk.

Speaker C: And I think knowing that really drives home um, the message that we do need to mentor younger people that we're working with to recognize the qualities that they're bringing to the team, but also recognizing the experience that you've got as well and trying to find the middle ground between that so that you, you are thinking in an innovative way that you are disrupting the industry but still with the caution that you've got from your experience.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So I am very keen to mentor the younger, the future leaders. But over the years I realized a lot of conversation I had with the uh, younger professional or the people that actually ah, after the fresh graduate is not to help them to reach their potential. I think that doesn't need to help is to inspire to help them to have that desires. Especially when it comes to being a female. That's a lot of a live event. It is on female and it's not easy. So whether it's um, getting married, having kids, buy a new house, taking mat leave, coming back and then for my age now I have to face the menopause. So all these live event hurdles are uh, not easy. It's so easy to give up the dream. So is that helping people to hold on to their desires, like what are the actual desires that can drive them, let them not to forget and then navigate different ways in different life events to fulfill their dreams and what they are set out for. I think that is the most important thing. It's not just at work to help them to reach their potential because I don't think that is a leader's role to help people to reach the potential. It's individual role to do it. But without that hope and desires and what is possible, they don't even know what is their potential.

Speaker C: It's all about finding your purpose, isn't it really? Was there a moment in your career where you feel like you found your purpose?

Speaker B: Yes. And it took a long time. So I would say that I found my purpose after I was 40 is a certain event in life that maybe we assess of what the core value that I hold. And I always thought that my number one value is about integrity because I fundamentally cannot lie and I always do what I say. I uh, value honesty. So I thought integrity must be my number 1m value. But certain things that happen in life. Then I realized that my number one value was about justice, about fairness. And I think that shaped my purpose even more. So my purpose is about level the inequality of wealth distribution. And the ingredient of that is about giving people hope. And because it's that bringing that fairness and justice, the equity to the world that means so much to me. And I will make it as my life mission to make it happen.

Speaker A: You mentioned how you were previously at EY and how your core principles and your values are so strong for you that when the opportunity for the AP+ job came up, you thought, this is it, this is. I'm out of here, see you later. Do you mind, uh, explaining how you truly do live your own personal values and how that value drove you to changing your career a bit?

Speaker B: Yes. So I do love EY so a bit of disclaimer here. I love my roles there. But when this opportunity came. So it's an opportunity that I really cannot pass. I see that even still today that it is the best role for me in this country in history. And I do believe that the universe prepared me for my entire career life for this moment so that I can take on the challenges and contribute to the legacy of the new payment history to be written. And this is so strong to me and why that I would jump on it no matter what was because back to the purpose is about level the inequality of wealth distribution. And I see payment plates such a key role. There's no individualized, no businesses do not need payment. And again, there's no trade without payment. And it play a critical role and it can change people life. And I hold on to that truth because everything is possible. Lower the cost of payment, making it safe, making it fair, making it accessible, making it extensible, making it global rich who provide more opportunity for underserved market like the snee market or the gig economy to bring the size of the pie bigger and grow the GDP for the country. And I think that payment too play a critical role, invisible role in the market. And I got to be a CIO to it. So it is a privilege. And privilege always comes with responsibilities and duties.

Speaker A: Values are intrinsic to how we operate at Endava. And obviously you've explained a lot, May, in terms of how the values are so important to you. Has there been any similarities or have you seen the synergies in some of the work that we've been doing together recently?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Um, like the first episode I mentioned about the third party, we're as good as our third party and I really value the industry collaboration and the strategic partnership. So the trust that I've built or Endava helped me to build with Endava is key because I know that uh, it's not about one engagement, it's about that you being understand our challenges, you understand the industry, you understand payment, you've seen a lot of different challenges and opportunities in different jurisdiction and it's that strength of knowledge that you can bring to the table to help us to navigate, especially during the turbulence. I think that I value the most back to the trust value. It is a psychological, um, contract that I would say that we have and when that's a challenge I have, I would think about who can help me um, to solve this problem. And ADAVA will come to mind because again that build that relationship. Building trust. Yeah. So I think that it is talk about the value and also the fairness. I find that endeavor has been fair, uh, in the approach and you won't take on things that you don't know, but you will help us to find the right partner. And I think that honesty travel long way and it's going to be a long term strategic partnership that I believe.

Speaker A: Well, thank you Meg, for joining us on Tech Reimagined. I think I speak for both of us, Natalie, if I can. It's been a pleasure talking to you today and over the last two episodes. I'm sure our listeners will enjoy the episode as well.

Speaker C: The things that we've spoken about today all comes back to people, to integrity, to uh, living by your values. I think that's come up in almost every part of the conversation we've had. So that was my takeaway from today's episode. Thank you. It's given me a lot to think about.

Speaker B: No, thank you so much for having me and really enjoy this conversation.

Speaker A: To our listeners, thank you for tuning in and don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time.

Speaker B: Tech Reimagined, redefining the relationship between people and technology brought to you by Andava. This is Tech Reimagined.