Communicating Across CULTURES with CQ expert Victoria Rennoldson (ep.215)

Ultimately, communication is about talking human to human, understanding each other, being able to engage and lean into conversations. And so for me, that is the ultimate one that we all need as global leaders wherever we are on that stage of career journey right now. That was Victoria Reynoldson, a communication coach who specializes in cultural intelligence. Lately, it seems like I've had a lot of questions from Talk About Talk podcast listeners and from my coaching and workshop clients about things like accents and communicating at work across different cultures. That is why I thought we should invite Victoria here today. Before we get into this, let me introduce myself. Let's do this. Let's Talk About Talk. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and I'm your communication coach. I coach ambitious executives like you through the Talk About Talk podcast to communicate with confidence and credibility so you can achieve your career goals. Sound good? You can learn more about me and about Talk About Talk if you go to talkabouttalk.com. Okay. Victoria Reynoldson is a global leadership coach, speaker, bestselling author, and podcast host who specializes in communication, confidence, and cultural intelligence. She helps current and emerging leaders increase their influence, visibility, and impact as they step into bigger roles internationally and across cultures. Here we go. Thank you so much, Victoria, for being here today to talk to me and the Talk About Talk listeners about communicating across cultures. I'm so excited to be here, so thank you so much for welcoming me on the show. Thanks, Andrea. I'm really excited to hear your take on communicating across cultures, both at the individual level and at the group level. But let's start at the individual level. Many of the Talk About Talk listeners that I coach are ambitious professionals, and some of them, many of them, in fact, work in cultures that feel unfamiliar to them or they're communicating in a language that's not their first language. So I wanted to start there. What general advice do you have for these folks? So I think, you know, this is a lot of the work that I do, working with individuals and teams across cultures, helping them to navigate what goes on within the team, but also within the organization. And the first thing that I would say is that there's a lot of noise that happens up here. So there's a lot of thinking that goes on. Right. So, you know, I often work with individuals who are saying to me things like, you know, I'm worrying about getting it right. I'm thinking about how can I get it clear. But by the time I work that out, like, the conversations kind of moved on. And the most common one that I hear actually is I have imposter syndrome. I sit in the room, I sit in the meeting, whether that's virtual or in person. And I just feel like I'm not at the same level as everybody else. I can't express it in the same way. I'm not nuanced enough in the way that I can say it's so. Hang on, can I just rewind a little bit? I think in my mind, at least, you've just done is articulated three legitimate and significant pain points that many folks experience. Right. It's I'm gonna mess up, I'm gonna do a faux pas. It's I can't keep up. Cause it's not my first language. Or it's just I don't have the confidence to speak up. And each one of those is very significant. Absolutely. And it makes it very noisy. Right. So you're trying to, you know individuals who are trying to do their best job to either their aspiring leaders, or maybe they're already there, but they've got all this noise going on inside their head. And this is not great because that's what is happening. It's creating the pause between the thinking, the clarity, and then being able to express it. And that often comes across to others in the room as well. They're a bit quiet, or they're just kind of often very reflective, or they're not really contributing to the conversation in the same way. But this could be a massive misunderstanding and actually a downplaying of what an individual's talents are about. So this is obviously really important. What people have to understand is how do I step through that? If somebody's listening to this going, wow, Yep, that's what I'm feeling. That's what I'm thinking. I hear a lot about this imposter syndrome, and I don't doubt for a minute it's real. It's absolutely real. And syndrome makes it also sound like it's very negative, like something we're suffering from. Yeah, a disease. A disease, exactly. Exactly. But instead, if we reframe it and then talk instead about, you know, I'm feeling like an imposter in this moment, then it kind of recognizes that you're going to get through this, that there are going to be ways through. And I basically have three strategies to really help people think about this. Beautiful. I know you love three. Yeah. So three. Absolutely three strategies. And so the first one of these is said is better than perfect. So to all those people who are worrying, am I going to say it in the right way? Or actually even is it the right thing to say in this moment is it. In some situations, it's better to get it out than to leave it unsaid. Silence is also a communication strategy. So we really have to recognize that sometimes we just need to say it, even if we don't have all the perfect words to kind of say it in the way we'd ideally like to. So that's the first one said is better than perfect. The second one is really about conversation, not performance. And the reason I talk about this is that I'm really feel like sometimes people put that pressure on. I need to be speaking at this level. Whether that means associated with their job title or the aspirational kind of promotional level they're going for. But this idea of I have to perform, I have to be speaking like this just creates too much pressure, extra pressure. So I break it down and say, look at some of the really successful speakers out there, some of the successful leaders. Actually, they could be talking on a stage to thousands of people and be very conversational in the way they're coming across. So don't put that extra pressure on. Don't see it as you're trying to act as if you're something and speak as if you're at this kind of level. Just get the words out. Treat it like a conversation, no matter who's in the room. So that's the second one, Conversation, not performance. And then the third one is, is your communication makes your visibility. So often the people that I'm working with are aiming to some sort of goal. They're aiming towards a promotion to a senior leadership level. And so what we have to recognize is it doesn't matter how talented you are in your work, it doesn't matter how smart you are. Unless you communicate that, unless people see that you make it visible, then that cannot be recognized and acknowledged. So connecting. I'm often doing work with people helping opinions connected to their goal, what is it they're trying to achieve, and their communication will make that visibility. That's right. So I, I've heard this beautiful quote. I. I don't know who it's attributed to, but you must speak for your work. Your work does not speak for itself. And I heard a very wise person say that if you don't talk about your work, you may as well have not done it. So early in our careers we have someone looking over our shoulder, making sure we're doing the work and giving us credit for the work. Right. And then when we get more senior, I think it becomes even more important. Do you agree? Absolutely. That, and I regularly have conversations with people who say, I know I'm doing great work. I do believe in what I do, but I think it should speak for itself. And the reality is, and this is another cultural lens, it depends on the context. So I find that I'm often working with people from a variety of cultures, some from South America, some from Asia, some from other parts of Europe. But primarily they're working in contexts that are influenced by North American UK styles, which tend to be more focused on. Actually, you do need to make that work visible to be acknowledged for it. You don't need to just do the work. You actually need to make it visible as well. So that's an adjustment because people worry about am I going to come across as too confident, too arrogant even, by just talking about myself all the time. And this is quite a big difference, I think, culturally, in style. This is something actually that I wanted to double down on with you, Victoria, because I get this question often, too. So this topic of various communication, I guess, expectations or norms across cultures, specifically the extent to which we promote ourselves, is a question that I also often get from my clients. For example, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but within North America, there's a big difference between the stereotype of the typical female Canadian. So Canadians are known as being kind of less dominant than Americans. This is a stereotype. But the stereotype exists. Right? They're Canadians versus Americans and also women versus men. So a female Canadian could walk into a room that's maybe primarily American men. Again, I'm not discriminating, but I am playing with the stereotypes here. And they're like, how do I overcome that? You know, be a good girl and do the work and don't talk about your work. That's going on inside my head when I know that I need to speak for my work in order to be recognized. How do you deal with all that? Can you unpack that? Yeah. So the first thing is actually awareness. And you're right, there are lots of stereotypes out there, but then there is also very good research which sits behind cultural intelligence. So in the work that I do, I use a particular model which has 10 different behavioral preferences where we can really analyze how individuals and teams communicate, behave, interact, show up at work. And this is really helpful because this gives us a language to describe differences in approaches. And some of the things you've just talked about, there might be differences in approach around individualism and collectivism. So what that means, very briefly is whether you're more focused on the self and talking about yourself or. Or you're more likely to consider yourself part of the group and talk about, say, group goals, group achievements. So that's one dimension. Another dimension might be at play here, which is about how directly you communicate, whether you're somebody who really likes to communicate directly and be very brief and to the point, both for positive and negative messages, or whether actually you're more indirect. And actually that's a very big one across some of the cultures I work with. And then there is expressiveness. How expressive is something for some cultures. I've worked a lot with Japanese clients in the past. It is much better to be very neutral, to come across as professional. So not very strong emotional expression either for positive or negative communication. Whereas I've worked a lot with Brazilians, and for them, it's really important to be expressive, to show your passion, your commitment, your warmth, and really show personality. So you can see these are just a few of the dimensions I mentioned. There are 10 altogether. We're not going to go through all of those, but you can understand, therefore, what's at play here. So awareness is absolutely the starting point for somebody who's listening and thinking, yeah, I recognize this. Recognize, yes, it's who you are, but it doesn't define you. So you have the absolute ability to adapt. But that is a choice and like, bringing it back to the original conversation. It's not just our national culture that shapes who we are. It's our gender, our lived experience. What sector do we work in? Like, I've worked with engineers and I've worked with people in the advertising industry, like, complete different cultural norms. So we are shaped a lot by multitudes of our cultural background. We're not just about national culture. So the point is, yes, start with awareness, but then you've got to get into what we call CQ strategy or cultural intelligence strategies. And this is where we really need to play with this and test. We're not trying to change who we are, but we're trying to adapt and see what might work better for our goals. In my personal branding language that I use when I'm coaching clients, I call it filtering. You're always your true self, but you will filter what parts of yourself you want to share depending on the person and the context that you're in. So thinking about the culture in terms of, like you said, like the national culture, the industry culture, the corporate culture, even your team culture, plus your own propensities, thinking about what parts of you you want to share and maybe that maybe generally you're a shy person, but you know, you do have some great thoughts. So you would filter, filter out the shyness and bring up the great points that you have in a meeting. Is that kind of an example? So I think it kind of breaks down into to three parts when it comes to the strategies one is planning. So actually recognizing most people are not naturally confident from the day they' like, it doesn't matter how they come across. They're not often like that. There are very few like that. Most people work on confidence. That's why it's one of the pillars in my work, in the book that I wrote, it's really important to recognize confidence is a practice, it's an action. It's not just what you feel. It's a skill you can learn. Right? That's it. That is it. Andrea so, like, for me, this is something we have to understand. We have to do the work, we have to work on confidence. And there are various things that I do in my work to do that, but includes recognizing actually what are you great at? Like, not being shy about that, really recognizing your talent, the value that you bring. So really kind of focusing on this and then connecting in planning to the goal. Why is it you would communicate? Why would you speak up? What is it you're trying to achieve here? And planning for that clarity, if that is something you worry about, like really thinking about how you're going to come across and get your ideas clear in that particular meeting, for example, then the second part is the awareness, recognizing in the moment what's going on, not just speaking or getting kind of caught up in the diet, the monologue in your head, but really thinking about like, okay, let me respond to what's going on here. Let me see if I try this out, will this work? And again, not letting the perfectionism get in the way. And then very importantly is what happens afterwards, Doing a review, thinking about, okay, what did land well, maybe what didn't go so well, not to beat yourself up about it, but actually to kind of go, well, what would I do differently next time? What am I going to try? And this is where it gets very powerful, because if you can treat it like a series of experiments, then this is where you kind of don't get too hung up on getting it perfect. It's really about these series of testing that you're doing. I love that. Victoria I don't, I don't hear that a lot. And to the listeners out there, it might sound, sound like common sense, but it is not Common. So what we're talking about here is doing a disciplined review after you've been in a meeting and asking yourself what went well and perhaps more importantly, what didn't. And objectively speaking, what am I going to do next time? Most people don't do this. It is pretty easy, right, Victoria? I mean, it's. It's not hard to do, but most people don't do it well. This is the thing I find, Andrea, is that people are busy. Of course they are. Like, it's really easy to go straight from one thing to the other. But the reality is nothing changes unless we put the little pause in somewhere. And it doesn't have to be straight off the meeting. It just has to be at some point. I would advise within 24 hours. Otherwise we tend to forget. But just have a place, like whether it's your notebook on your kind of phone, make a note, but just capture it really quickly as you're going through the day. It doesn't have to be big or anything dramatic, but it is noticing as that you can do something different with it next time. I think that this advice, Victoria, is gold. So whether it's in a notebook or in a list on your phone, tracking your effectiveness in meetings, your communication skills, writing down and recording what you did well and what you want to do better next time, one thing that I've heard from a couple of my clients is that, yes, it's easy to do. It's also true that most of us don't do it, but. But knowing that it's going to give me a competitive advantage, I think is what motivates some. Some folks that I've worked with to make that extra effort. I would love to ask you a specific question that I get all the time, and it's about people's accents. So we all have an accent. It's just that it becomes more salient when we're in with a group where ours is more unique. Right. And so people will often ask me, how can I erase my accent? Andrea, can you help me erase my accent? And can you help me be more comprehensible to the people that I'm communicating with? That's a big ask that, that I hear frequently. I can imagine. And it's something that I get asked about as well. I'm sure. I'm sure. And I have a really specific point of view on this. Okay. So this comes up quite a lot. And actually, interestingly, I've heard it quite a lot recently in the last sort of year or so, connected to people who have been job searching and being told, the reason you're not getting through the interviews is because of your accent. And it makes me mad. It makes me really mad. Because here's the thing. I've been running this business now for 11 years, and in all that time, I have probably only met maybe one or two people, maximum, where their accent meant that I found it very difficult to understand them. That means I had to listen incredibly carefully to what they said. So my question always is, is this person clear? So can I understand them without having to really listen super carefully? And are they comprehensible? For the vast majority of people, that answer is, yes, they are clear. They are comprehensible in the accent. The concern, where it comes from, the concern they're really raising is, I sound different to other people. Is that a problem? Now, obviously, context is everything. If you are the only person with an accent in a very uniform, very kind of homogeneous environment, then of course you're going to notice that. You're going to worry about that. Maybe. But here is the thing. Like, accents are often part of our personality. It's part of who we are. And you could live in a country for many, many years, decades in fact, and still hold that accent and that be part of who you are. Does that make you less of a communicator or a speaker? No. And the point I would come to is this is connected, again to confidence. It's often connected to am I clear enough? But that is less to do with the accent, the pronunciation, and much more to do with, can you express those points? Can you frame the way you're speaking so that people. It lands that people understand your messages? And that's when people say that to me, that's the space I'm focusing on. Confidence and clarity. Beautiful. I am delighted, Victoria, that your answer aligns with what I say. As long as your words are understandable, comprehensible by other folks, don't worry about it. They will register that you have an accent. And in fact, back to personal branding, you can make it part of your brand. Listen, I have global experience or I have a different global perspective. And these are things that people are seeking right as. As they ascend the leadership ladder. They're looking for people with global perspective. So maybe you can actually use your accent as evidence of that global perspective. The other thing that I often will suggest to people, if they're worried about people understanding them because of their accent, is for them to slow down. Absolutely. Yeah. Slowing down is going to help. It's also going to help, because it gives you time to think what comes next. How can I start this thought and express it? Kind of well, but for sure, slowing down helps you. It helps the other person. But the key thing as well is to recognize that communication comes in lots of forms. So, yes, the spoken form we've mostly talked about here today, but there are lots of other ways as well to express your ideas, to contribute ideas. And if I flip it, you know, thinking about leaders with maybe lots of people in their team, with different accents, different cultures, often you have to be quite creative about thinking about how do you encourage that contribution and get people talking. Let's dive in there. So we've covered the individual level. Let's shift to the group level. You are a manager or one of the leaders on a team, right? With people that come with a variety of personalities, of course, and cultural contexts, how do you make sure that everyone's voice is heard? I mean, that's a big question as well, because I'm sure there are people listening to this, have been in meetings where they feel like they're hearing from the same voices time and time again. And there are just some people who are just not speaking up. And I've also had, you know, conversations with leaders where they're saying, well, you know, I've spoken to that person individually and I've said to them, you know, we want to hear from you. Please just, you know, say what you think. But here's the thing, and this comes back to cultural context for some people, just inviting them to unmute and speak up, or even in the same space, like, even if you're all in the same room, you know, just saying, or just speak up and say what you think. Like, a lot of people find that quite tricky for a variety of reasons. It might be that, again, they're processing, they're needing to think about what they're going to say. Maybe they have confidence challenges about, you know, as we've spoken about earlier today, like, really, how do I come across in the way that I want to. It could be just because actually, again, they're collectivists. Coming back to the cultural language we were using earlier, like, they just prefer sometimes to talk in smaller groups to get a sense of where everybody else is at before they express their point of view. So as a leader, let's get really practical about this. Like, how do we really encourage people? Because ultimately we do want to have that richness and diversity of the voices and perspectives. That's where the innovation comes from. It really comes down to being really deliberate and, you know, really thinking about what I call 360 communication. What happens before, what happens during the meeting and what happens afterwards. And that includes things like thinking about how people are contributing anonymously, perhaps even to things like word clouds or polls and different, all the exciting tools that are out there to use for this purpose. It might be about getting some asynchronous contribution going on. So that means obviously getting contributions before you even turn up in the room. And again, that gives somebody maybe confidence to express their views, what they're thinking. But also I always say that the meeting doesn't finish when the time is up. Also what happens afterwards. So if you're not hearing the richness of the ideas and contributions from everyone, go have a conversation, work out what they do think. Now, clearly this is coming with an assumption that you've got the luxury of time and that's not going to be possible for everything. Right, I do get that. I really get that. But I think it's about designing, really designing good conversations, designing the communication. And then on the flip of this, if people are listening to this and English is your first language, you have that privilege of that you have the privilege of being in the dominant culture of the group. Just be super aware of how you're speaking. Are you speaking too fast? Are you making jokes and using humour in a way that might not be understood by everybody? There are using idioms even like that just are not understood. We have to be quite conscious of this when we got a very diverse, multilingual, multicultural group. I think about this when I'm writing my email newsletter. Sometimes I'll start to think about a metaphor or an idiom and I'll be like, ooh, that's not gonna land with some of my audience. So that, that's a fantastic point. I hadn't thought of that. I've got one more question for you, Victoria, before we get to the three rapid fire questions and it's a doozy. I'm gonna warn you, I would love to hear what you believe makes someone a truly effective global communicator. I mean, I think for me, having done a lot of the research around the book that I wrote last year, Become a global leader. For me, I summarize it and focus it in on the four pillars that I think are really important. Each individual, each collective will need that in different combinations. Just like when you're mixing paints depending on who they are and where they are in their career. But basically, very simply, those four are confidence, which we've touched on many Times today, clarity not only in your thinking, in the way that you communicate. Challenging conversations, knowing how to navigate those, again, that can be quite complex culturally and. And then finally, connection. Ultimately, communication is about talking human to human, understanding each other, being able to engage and lean into conversations. And so for me, that is the ultimate one that we all need as global leaders, wherever we are on that stage of career journey right now. That is a beautiful list, and I love the alliteration. All right, are you ready for the three rapid fire questions? Absolutely. Okay, question number one. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? So I'm going to cheat on this one. I'm an ambivert. I used to be. Used to think I was totally extrovert until Covid and then I realized I'm much more introvert than I kind of anticipated. So I do have, like, moments of both. Got it. Okay. I'm really curious about this one for you. As a communication coach, what are your communication pet peeves? So this one's a big one, and I think it also ties into our cultural conversation today. It's when somebody calls me by the name that I'm not. So I'm a Victoria. I'm never a Vicky. And yet it's surprisingly interesting how many times people do say to me, vicky without permission, without asking what exactly. Right. I can't even. So I wouldn't have even gone with Vicki. I would have gone with Tori, because I have many friends that are Victoria and they go by Tori. But I would never shorten someone's name without their permission. Or does that happen a lot? Surprisingly, yeah. And it always shocks me. And I think, to be honest with you, the other person is doing it because they want to connect. They think that that's being kind of connective. But when I translate this as well, culturally, you know, how often have we turned up to a meeting and not really been entirely sure how to pronounce somebody's name? My advice is just ask. Just say at the beginning. Could you give me some guidance? How could I say your name correctly? Or how can I pronounce your name correctly? That is so appreciated. And never, never shorten anybody's name without permission. Our name is our identity. It's who we are ultimately. And so I think this deeply matters in a time where, you know, we might be just on virtual calls a lot of the day. So actually, our names are super important to us. So, yeah, like, I think this is why it's my pet peeve and why I think it's really important in the context of this conversation. Yeah, I just want to double down on this for a minute because I totally agree with you that our name is a very significant part of our identity. One last question. Is there a book or a podcast, Victoria, that you find yourself recommending to people lately? The one I was listening to a lot recently is called New Ideas, Big Thinkers. And it's not about communication exactly, but it's more about the ideas in the world today. So it talks a lot about human connection. I've just been recently listening to an episode about our aging brain and can we stop that? And I just love being kind of inspired and listening to different ideas. And some of them are sometimes connected to the what I'm doing in my world, in my work, and other times it's just about actually, this is kind of interesting to learn about and important to know. So I do recommend that one and I find it absolutely fascinating. Really, really good one to follow. I have not heard heard of that one, but I will definitely add it to my queue. Before we go, I just want to ask you one more time, Victoria, do you have any advice for listeners who struggle across cultural context? Whether they're the person leading the meeting or more likely, they're the person that maybe feels like an outsider or they feel like they're not part of the group, how can they improve their communication and their presence in this context? It comes down to if I think about everything we've talked about here, recognizing you're there for a reason. You're there because you have points of view, ideas, perspectives that are different. And that's going to ultimately be really great benefit to not only the team, but to the organization. But unless you say it, unless it is said and the leader, for example, invites you to say it, unless this happens, those ideas are silent and nothing changes. And remember, silence is a communication strategy as well. So I really encourage people to move through that silence. To really think about said is better than perfect, that it is really about the conversation and not the performance, and that there is a real goal to communication, which is about the visibility. This is where I'd like to sort of leave the ideas with your listeners. It's a beautiful and powerful and important message. Thank you so much, Victoria. Thank you, Andrea. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks again to Victoria. Don't you just love her accent? I guess I should have said that to her directly, but she has a beautiful voice, doesn't she? Okay, now I'm going to briefly share three points that I want to reinforce from this episode. The first is the power of focusing on the before, the during and the after. If you're the meeting leader before the meeting, you might want to plan how you're going to make everyone feel included and provide them with different ways of participating during the meeting. And then after the meeting you can follow up with those who didn't. As an individual contributor, I encourage you to plan what you're going to say, especially for those high stakes meetings. And then after the meeting, Victoria and I had a great conversation about this. Consider your follow up. We recognize that you are very busy but having the discipline to take a few minutes after the meeting's over to debrief with yourself what went well and how can you improve next time. This can become your strategic competitive advantage. So really focus on the before, the during and the after. The second thing that I want to reinforce is I want to encourage you to think about your brand, your personal brand and your identity. And yes, your name and your accent are both significant elements of your brand. So own it. And third and last, Victoria said this several times and I love it. She said said is better than perfect. I'll say that again, said is better than perfect. If you are one of those folks who struggles to speak up in meetings, I want you to make this part of your mantra and that is it for this episode. If you're not already subscribed, please hit subscribe now on whatever platform you're on and that way you won't miss any more communication skills coaching from me. Thanks for listening and talk soon.