S2 E3 - Innovating for a Sustainable Future - Gustavo Vinacua

1 - > Duena Blomstrom: Taking the ten, fifteen, twenty minutes it might 2 - > take to leaf through the very lengthy, complicated and complex 3 - > profile that Gustavo Vinacua has on LinkedIn would lead you to 4 - > believe that he has done a little bit of everything. To us 5 - > in the FinTech world, he was synonymous with innovation and 6 - > synonymous with BBVA's rise to the powerhouse of new digital 7 - > signature that it has been between say 02/2014. Listen to 8 - > this episode to understand not only his journey from then, but 9 - > what of his principles are permeating today into the work 10 - > that he's doing as an investor.

And if you will, as a planet 11 - > changer. Hello everyone, and welcome back to Tales from the 12 - > Fintech Crypt. 13 - > I have a special guest here with me today. We're going to talk 14 - > about our past in financial technology and our future in all 15 - > kinds of industries.

So welcome to the show, Gustavo. 16 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Thank you so much, Joanna. Thanks for having 17 - > me. 18 - > Duena Blomstrom: No, absolutely.

I know that your name is one 19 - > that's resonating with many people in our industry, and that 20 - > is because you've done many of things. And I'll kind of let you 21 - > walk us through your journey a little bit, if you'd like. But 22 - > kind of how far back would you say you've landed into this 23 - > world of fintech? 24 - > Gustavo Vinacua: That feels like a long, long time ago.

And yeah, 25 - > I guess it was 02/2009 or something like that. So it's 26 - > been a while and yeah, quite a journey. Yeah, my career has 27 - > been all of, most of it in banking sector, also in the 28 - > telco business, in all cases around innovation, the 29 - > intersection between that technology and entrepreneurship. 30 - > So yeah, a lot around connecting with the ecosystem, exposing 31 - > ourselves to others, and then, of course, creating value out of 32 - > that.

33 - > Duena Blomstrom: So would you say that part of your the fact 34 - > that your journey was quite as successful as it's been has to 35 - > do with where you were in terms of the organizations you've 36 - > worked with over time and so on. Is it because you've kind of 37 - > encountered places that were open hearted and open minded? 38 - > Tell us a little bit about what you think was your key success 39 - > factor in those places. 40 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Yeah, the context of course has a lot to 41 - > do.

I was fortunate enough to my financial industry part of my 42 - > career. It's been almost all of that at BBVA And BBVA is a 43 - > really very special place. Of course, not perfect, but it was 44 - > a place that was open to, very early on, to connect with others 45 - > outside and to expose some of the assets to do stuff with 46 - > others. And in terms of the culture inside BBVA, it was 47 - > pretty much a place where I remember proposing stuff that 48 - > was kind of strange and wild for others in the industry.

49 - > And I would get it, okay, go ahead and do that. So yeah, that 50 - > was definitely something. Of course, I'm also interested in 51 - > pushing the boundaries. So that's something that comes with 52 - > my character and personality.

So that's also that. 53 - > And then people around me. So I was very fortunate with everyone 54 - > around me at BBVA. And also at the wider ecosystem, would say, 55 - > if you were around as well, and others are part of the other 56 - > people that come to your pockets.

So it was, was a few 57 - > very, very, very purposeful and trying to move things around me 58 - > as well at those days, I guess that was also a part of it. 59 - > Duena Blomstrom: I think that's an interesting point that we 60 - > should probably emphasize for those of us who weren't around 61 - > at the time. I know that we have listeners that are new to the 62 - > topic of fintech and so on, and they're always interested in 63 - > these like old stories of ours. I think Gustaf was being very 64 - > modest about is the fact that in 2011, '20 '12, and so on, there 65 - > were very few places that were genuinely innovative.

And BBVA 66 - > was one of those creators of innovation. Granted, towards the 67 - > end of things, people were claiming that it had went too 68 - > far. 69 - > It's not really translating things into practice. There were 70 - > many, many things to kind of have a go at.

But realistically, 71 - > it is undoubtedly the first bank that has genuinely opened doors. 72 - > And it's a very good point you've made earlier. I want to 73 - > emphasize it. 74 - > The fact that it has allowed providers to play with the data 75 - > has been absolutely seminal for the industry.

And this is at a 76 - > time that for our younger listeners, there was no such 77 - > thing as open banking or a way to touch data of any banks. And 78 - > I think for those of you that are making financial technology 79 - > today, it's important to be grateful because it the time 80 - > where we had to do the same exact things with much less in 81 - > terms of access to information, data and databases of any banks. 82 - > So for that, it's genuinely important moment in the history 83 - > of fintech that BBVA has opened doors.

And again, it has bred 84 - > this innovation lake of ideas, I think. 85 - > So that's very cool for yourself to have been inside that and 86 - > seen probably what was a fair amount of tension between what 87 - > would be cool to make and what can be made. So how does that 88 - > Yeah, 89 - > Gustavo Vinacua: absolutely. And I think it's fair what you're 90 - > saying and what some of those comments around not being able 91 - > to fully execute and get the fruits of those efforts, I think 92 - > it's just fair.

In some cases, you just expect the fruit to be 93 - > just very evident on the type of projects you're bringing out 94 - > there. In some cases, wasn't like that. But all the energy 95 - > and the push inside the company to allow us to just have a 96 - > leaner compliance, or just figure out a way to go through 97 - > seven innovation committees to allow us to go out with a 98 - > product. 99 - > All of those things, we push the boundaries, figure out ways to 100 - > smooth those processes.

And those are the ones that then 101 - > allowed others inside the company to end up launching 102 - > products in a better way, in a simple way, in a faster way. So 103 - > the contribution was there. And it is only fair for some of 104 - > those comments to come up because in some cases, some of 105 - > the projects you just launch end up bringing benefits not evident 106 - > and not visible, at least to everyone. 107 - > Duena Blomstrom: Safe on innovation committees, is that 108 - > what they used to have before they streamlined?

109 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Yes. I'm not Exaggerating. Oh, I'm not 110 - > exaggerating. And I know of other banks having same or more.

111 - > And it was really like that. 112 - > And if you are part of the ecosystem, you can start 113 - > counting the typical things that you will get from compliance, 114 - > the technical piece, and this and that. And then it is maybe 115 - > seven. In any case, we figured out to go and smooth that, 116 - > figure out a way to bring those that we call shapers, which is 117 - > legal, compliance, IT and everyone involved, inside the 118 - > process, part of the process, some of them, they ended up 119 - > being the best advocates, ambassadors, moving to digital.

120 - > So yeah, yeah, it was like that. It's not like that anymore, of 121 - > course. 122 - > Right. 123 - > Duena Blomstrom: Yeah, those were the days.

Those were the 124 - > beginning days of kind of all of us trying to understand what 125 - > does innovation really mean as compared to just necessary 126 - > change in the digital systems that we had at the time and they 127 - > were not fit for purpose. With that said, again, a lot of the 128 - > industry good ideas came from things that BVA has tried. Let's 129 - > face it, were probably the first bank to have done a digital 130 - > wallet in Europe, the first bank to have done PFM in Europe in a 131 - > very shaky fashion, I would say, because you didn't play with the 132 - > right players at the time.

I think you weren't a sale for 133 - > many years. 134 - > But I remember those conversations and I remember 135 - > what stage the other banks in the region were at. I mean, we 136 - > were at the time working with, you know, Santander and Sabadell 137 - > and everyone else. The difference in comprehending new 138 - > technology and digital in BV versus other banks was 139 - > monumental, I would say, from 2010 to 2020 when I looked at 140 - > last.

So yeah, it's an interesting story that you've 141 - > been part of. 142 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Yeah. And then picking on something that you 143 - > said is, it was not only the digital piece that of course it 144 - > is still is a big part of the driver for change in banking, 145 - > but it was also then picking up the sustainability part. I 146 - > remember our chairman these days, the UVACE chairman, I'm 147 - > not there anymore, but I guess I still feel like that.

Carlos 148 - > Torres, he brought the sustainability into the 149 - > strategy. That was for me something that also triggered my 150 - > interest around sustainability. 151 - > That's a different conversation altogether, of course. But BBVA 152 - > was of the first ones really paying attention and doing real 153 - > stuff in channeling funds into the right businesses, in 154 - > embedding sustainability in the strategy.

And yeah, that pretty 155 - > much shows that leadership role of BBVA in trying to move and 156 - > evolve the financial industry into the right direction. 157 - > Duena Blomstrom: I mean, you were part of a very, very 158 - > interesting moment of it. So thank you for giving us a little 159 - > bit of insight in that. Speaking of which, I'm going to ask this 160 - > because I'm curious, if nothing else.

What part of that was 161 - > internal work on human systems. And is that kind of, was that 162 - > something that the bank was looking into seriously? 163 - > Like, how do we genuinely change mindsets towards transformation? 164 - > How do we make people be more emotionally intelligent?

How do 165 - > we make teams have the right kind of actions and behaviors to 166 - > be performance and so on? Was that part of the innovation bit 167 - > or was that considered more business as usual and we 168 - > shouldn't be touching it for now? 169 - > Gustavo Vinacua: No, I wouldn't say it was the innovation bit. I 170 - > would be crediting myself for having an important role in 171 - > that.

But innovation was in a way spearheading all this. I 172 - > remember at the very, very beginning we were testing Agile 173 - > and then not just Agile in terms of the methodology to develop 174 - > software, but then Agile in the framework, sort of a systemic 175 - > way in terms of the mindset, right? And then in the end, the 176 - > whole bank ended up transforming the organization into the agile 177 - > organization. 178 - > And thousands of people these days work in that way that is 179 - > creating a more liquid sort of environment.

But along that, we 180 - > created the purpose altogether, everyone involved in creating 181 - > the purpose. We were talking about the management model, 182 - > meaning that you 183 - > Duena Blomstrom: would have 184 - > Gustavo Vinacua: a safe environment, psychological 185 - > environment, meaning that you would feel safe in there to just 186 - > speak up and give your views. I remember talking. 187 - > Duena Blomstrom: That's really awesome.

If you remember any of 188 - > the people that were working with that, I'd love to have a 189 - > chat with them at some point. 190 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Yeah, absolutely. I know Yeah, 191 - > Duena Blomstrom: I'd love to read. 192 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Very much into this.

And I remember the talent 193 - > and culture people bringing the topic of feedback and training 194 - > each of us in this is you just give it this way, just get it in 195 - > this way. So it was a lot of different things all at the same 196 - > time that would prepare the organization to be a place where 197 - > you would be able to be performing, as you were saying, 198 - > feel great and so on. So, yeah. Happy to connect you with some 199 - > of the people 200 - > Duena Blomstrom: Thanks.

I'll keep you to that. I'll keep you 201 - > to that. I'm just curious. People that have managed it.

202 - > And it's very rare, to be honest with you, like having gone 203 - > through many other industries. And I know that both you and I 204 - > are not identifying as in fintech anymore. But kind of 205 - > what you what we see, I'm sure both of us in in various places, 206 - > is that attitude towards genuine openness, innovation, and the 207 - > way to do that in a sustainable fashion that will maintain our 208 - > kids in a normal world is all connected to practically having 209 - > this base of capability, that's human capability.

And I think 210 - > that's kind the most sustainable thing we can do for ourselves 211 - > these days is to focus on the human element of everything and 212 - > attempt to move that. 213 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Absolutely. 214 - > Duena Blomstrom: I would say that. 215 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Yeah, absolutely.

I keep being active 216 - > as a mentor of Rise Up, the Money 2020 initiative on 217 - > inclusion and diversity, especially for women having more 218 - > important prominent role in business. And I think we need to 219 - > keep doing more and more. We're still too far from where we 220 - > should be. And then the other part, which is the one that I'm 221 - > very much involved in these days, which is sustainability.

222 - > It's also very much linked to the purpose of people in life, 223 - > right? So we can still do business, healthy business, and 224 - > do good things for the planet and at the same time. 225 - > Duena Blomstrom: Ethical and business does exist and it is 226 - > going to be more and more necessary from here on, I would 227 - > say, and people being able to kind of be mindful about what 228 - > they're doing genuinely in a sense that that leaves good 229 - > marks on our lives and planet.

It's important. So I really am 230 - > glad to hear. And I'm going to ask you a little bit about what 231 - > you see the connection being between fintech and 232 - > sustainability and kind of what can fintech do more. Before 233 - > that, and just kind of to see where you fall on this, in terms 234 - > of something you said earlier on women in the industry, and I 235 - > tend to have a very strange opinion on this.

236 - > And I famously once told Barclays that if they want me to 237 - > lead a women's only event, they should have a midgets only event 238 - > as well. And they didn't like that. But I just, I lived in the 239 - > industry at a time where it was so fragmented in terms of girls 240 - > can be in this corner and pretend that they do understand 241 - > finance and technology, that it took a lot of get out of here or 242 - > all on the same level sort of fight to get anywhere.

But 243 - > equally, it was a time that the discussion on diversity in the 244 - > industry was just starting. And it feels like it ended abruptly, 245 - > if you ask me. 246 - > It started taking off and finding more intelligent ways of 247 - > bringing women into the evacuation. And it just kind of 248 - > tapered off and stopped that.

Yeah, it's hard to bring women 249 - > anywhere. And let's face it that the diversity conversations in 250 - > the world are in question today, and they are under attack today. 251 - > And I think it is more important than ever for at least us in 252 - > Europe, where we're still one of the last bastions of we can do 253 - > this the right way to keep pushing on those areas. 254 - > So thank you so much for your work in that area.

But how many 255 - > women are there now as compared to ten years ago in FinTech, you 256 - > think? 257 - > Gustavo Vinacua: I don't have the numbers, but I think I can 258 - > imagine that we're not a lot better at all recently, but it 259 - > was really on very specific markets in Spain. And it was 260 - > really, I would say, shame not really growing at all. So yeah, 261 - > we still have a lot to do.

And I like your comment on Europe 262 - > needing to keep the essence of what Europe stands for. And this 263 - > is also a bigger conversation when it comes to ambition. 264 - > And when you, of course, we know that it's a fragmented market, 265 - > the European Union, and it's difficult to scale and there's a 266 - > lot of things. And when you see numbers, we don't have as many 267 - > investments as The US, We don't have as many unicorns or this or 268 - > that.

But then I would love to have the ambition. I don't think 269 - > it's about ambition. I would love to have less friction and 270 - > easier to scale and this and that. 271 - > But what I don't want is that we want to just mimic the whole 272 - > thing that comes from The US.

And I just use it as an example, 273 - > it's a personal opinion, but I don't want the Elon Musk type of 274 - > thing. Of course, there's good things about what he has 275 - > achieved and everything. But then we could have more 276 - > ambition. We could figure out solving some stuff that we know 277 - > of.

278 - > We should go quicker. But let's not focus on mimicking the 279 - > characters and the type of things that most of them, they 280 - > don't really like it either. 281 - > Duena Blomstrom: I'm very happy to be honest on this podcast, 282 - > and whoever doesn't like it can stop listening to it. But 283 - > nothing of happening in The US is necessarily it's not 284 - > necessary.

It's a good idea right now. It feels to me like 285 - > it is terrifying, and I can understand. I now have you know, 286 - > we all have hundreds of colleagues in The US, and it's 287 - > it is a terrifying time for many, many people. 288 - > Hopefully, is just a moment of bravado and things will settle 289 - > down in an elegant fashion.

But if not, then realistically, in 290 - > the area we're in only, and that is South Of Spain, we have seen 291 - > an absolute influx of Americans that are no longer safe where 292 - > they are, and they need to go places where life is decent and 293 - > normal, and that's not The US in some places. So, yeah, thank you 294 - > for putting that out there. We can do, and it's a good point, 295 - > we can do capitalism without it having to be nauseous and 296 - > negative and killing those around us.

So I like that angle 297 - > a lot. 298 - > What you do today, that's a big concern, isn't it? So tell us 299 - > more about where you're at today and what you're building. 300 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Yeah, totally.

So and it has a lot to do, as 301 - > you said, because we can do healthy businesses and still be 302 - > good to the planet and society, meaning profitable businesses. 303 - > So that's what I'm doing. I decided to quit my corporate 304 - > career and joined forces with two co founders founding Net 305 - > Positive Labs. We're an innovation studio and a venture 306 - > builder on a side.

307 - > So we help companies adapt their businesses to make sure that 308 - > they can keep growing and being more and more profitable. But at 309 - > the same time, they would just have a better impact, more 310 - > positive impact in society and environment. So we combine 311 - > circular economy and regenerative economics with 312 - > innovation, sustainable innovation. So things from, 313 - > again, circular economy, waste management, energy.

And we try 314 - > to help them out adapt what they have these days, and also 315 - > identify new opportunities. 316 - > In some cases, we help them build new ventures, new 317 - > businesses that are going to have the sustainability angle. 318 - > It's for profit, of course, as you said, in terms of we can do 319 - > capitalism, but also with the right purpose. So it's for 320 - > profit.

We find ways to make it profitable and still have a 321 - > better impact. So that's what we do. 322 - > Duena Blomstrom: That's very awesome. More initiatives and 323 - > efforts like yours are needed in the world without a doubt.

And 324 - > from what you see today, what is the hot intersection between, 325 - > would we say, finance and sustainability? I mean, we've 326 - > just had, I think by the time our episode comes out, we've 327 - > just had Mateo on the show who has spoken extensively about why 328 - > it's important to have inclusion in various areas where there's 329 - > no such thing. In our case, because we come from these so 330 - > called highly digitized country, to put it mildly, that's not 331 - > necessarily quite as much of an emergency, but there are places 332 - > in the world where it is.

333 - > So what do you see in your new venture? 334 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Yeah. So there's plenty of intersection 335 - > between sustainability and fintech. FinTech is in the 336 - > hands, is in our daily activities.

Of course, payments 337 - > is an easy way to see that. But managing your finance, 338 - > everything, it's in the end part of our daily lives. 339 - > And in the same way, sustainability is part of our 340 - > daily lives. The green gas emissions are part of our daily 341 - > activities.

When you move from one point to another, when you 342 - > buy something, when you produce something just to be sold, 343 - > whatever, right? So in that sense, there's, of course, 344 - > there's a lot to be done in terms of financial inclusion, as 345 - > you know. And we've been doing that in Mexico, where it's more 346 - > evident, I would say, but there's a lot of financial 347 - > inclusion to be done in Europe as well and in other places. 348 - > And that is part of the ESG.

Sometimes we forget that the S 349 - > is for social. So we got to keep doing stuff and not just for the 350 - > environment. And there's ways to do sustainable and also 351 - > profitable financial inclusion. We have just done something in 352 - > Mexico, very interesting in that sense.

353 - > And then finding ways to channel the funds in the right 354 - > direction, of course, but selling products or services, 355 - > doing renting stuff where there's a lot of insurance that 356 - > can go in it, helping SMEs in figuring out their ways to 357 - > embrace sustainability, supply chains. You know that Scope 358 - > three is huge in so many industries and helping them to 359 - > go and find ways to do that in a more resilient way also allows 360 - > to do some supply chain financing embedded with 361 - > sustainability targets.

Interesting. And I'm forgetting 362 - > all the, of course, reporting and stuff that needs to happen. 363 - > But we have seen a lot also in lending, lending with specific 364 - > targets. 365 - > You can find ways to have specific incentives around 366 - > lending that would foster a more sustainable practice.

So yeah, 367 - > there's plenty. 368 - > Duena Blomstrom: I like that. I like that a lot because it's not 369 - > as clear as I would like it to be that if we genuinely want 370 - > this cascade of impact, then we need to gear funding of all 371 - > kinds, whether it's VC funding or institutional funding or 372 - > lending to create more good impact as a cascade effect. And 373 - > it's not as evident as that.

And I am actually, I was going to 374 - > ask you about this. It does feel to me like, and potentially this 375 - > is just my feeling and it's not correct, but almost like Europe 376 - > has a little bit closed their appetite window for innovation 377 - > in the same way that it existed, I don't know, seven, eight years 378 - > ago. 379 - > I would say that it's a lot less open and a lot less willing to 380 - > bring new stuff in, in a sense. What I see is, like, the 381 - > funding, if you look at new funding for startups that are 382 - > doing even impactful things, it's a lot more reduced than we 383 - > would have thought.

And I know that the world thinks that the 384 - > European Union is functioning on nothing but redistributing 385 - > people's taxes in various unclear ways. But practically, I 386 - > do not see as much funding as I would have liked to have seen 387 - > for new enterprises. I'm a I'm still a mentor for many boot 388 - > camps and and incubators. 389 - > Complaint is much louder these days, if you wish, in terms of 390 - > there's no such thing as grants, there's no such thing as 391 - > governments that are super involved in moving social 392 - > enterprises.

So there's the gap I see in some places. Do you 393 - > think that this is kind of fair for Spain as well? Or is it just 394 - > more of a European in other places? 395 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Look, I think that it's fair what you're 396 - > saying.

I do see AI wave sort of awaking a lot of the European 397 - > sort of appetite around doing stuff faster and nurturing and 398 - > supporting the wider innovation ecosystem and entrepreneurial 399 - > ecosystem to embrace AI in this case. I think that's the trigger 400 - > that is in everyone. The sustainability part, I hope all 401 - > the geopolitics and stuff happening, which is frightening. 402 - > Of course, it's not really slowing down the sustainability 403 - > agenda as much as it has been doing.

404 - > But no, I'm positive. I'm optimistic. I think that things 405 - > are going to start to happen. There's so many things we could 406 - > be doing.

Some other examples of the stuff that we do is 407 - > secondary markets. 408 - > So finding ways to keep stuff alive and extend the life cycle 409 - > of products. And that is something that has proven 410 - > business case and it could be scaled throughout the different 411 - > markets. So I see more stuff happening.

So I'm optimistic in 412 - > that sense. 413 - > Duena Blomstrom: That's good to hear. I'm glad that I was 414 - > pessimistic on that front. But here's a question for you that I 415 - > haven't actually asked anyone before, and I don't it's more of 416 - > an open question.

It's not necessarily something I'm 417 - > expecting you to immediately answer. But I don't seem to see 418 - > enough, how do I put this, human workplace in the sustainability 419 - > space, if that makes sense. 420 - > It tends to reason and we all kind of agree in theory, but in 421 - > practice, very little is done that what we are going to be 422 - > left with as unique selling point for us as individuals is 423 - > going to be our humanity now in this direct head to head with AI 424 - > that knows all the things and can do all the things.

So what 425 - > we have uniquely is, to my mind, what sustainability means is 426 - > what we can still count on in the future. I would have 427 - > expected there to be a wave of, I don't know, hundreds of 428 - > companies teaching you personally how to be a better 429 - > leader or thousands of companies trying to make sure that, you 430 - > know, kind of we've rebuilt our culture for telepathic 431 - > understanding of each other's objectives. I don't know, but 432 - > I'm saying that that entire area of what we need to do so that we 433 - > make humans sustainable is not really included in 434 - > sustainability in as clear of effect.

Is there a reason for 435 - > that? 436 - > Why are we only talking about energy and not human emotions as 437 - > well? 438 - > Gustavo Vinacua: No, that's a very good point. I think that 439 - > probably this is early days, even when sustainability has 440 - > been around for decades, but I would see the revamping and 441 - > energizing of sustainability is quite nascent.

But you're so 442 - > right. I guess that we, in the social part of the 443 - > sustainability on the ESG thing, it's been very much focused on 444 - > those very evident cases where you need to put some effort. And 445 - > this case that you are describing, the AI, I think it's 446 - > definitely been more prominent in the last few years, even when 447 - > it's been there for decades as well. 448 - > So totally agree.

We need to do more and put a lot of content 449 - > and meaning into that social part because it is an important 450 - > element in the AI. Wouldn't say it's a battle, but it feels like 451 - > a battle already, right? We need to find ways to prepare people 452 - > and that's no joke. The learning part is definitely important 453 - > here to make sure that we don't leave many behind, right?

454 - > So ultimately, we need to start doing more. So that's a good 455 - > white space to work on. 456 - > Duena Blomstrom: Right. So if anyone's listening to this and 457 - > you're still inside the belly of the beast, and you're a banker 458 - > who has or fin tech of any kind, you have always seen where we 459 - > should have done something on the human side, just come talk 460 - > to Gustavo and I, and maybe we'll start a new branch that's 461 - > human sustainability in enterprises.

Come up with a 462 - > couple of ideas, talk to us about it, and we'll try and 463 - > guide you towards making them happen. 464 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Absolutely. 465 - > Duena Blomstrom: Sounds really good. I'm really glad we've gone 466 - > through quite a number of things.

Of course, we haven't 467 - > exhausted by far our long journey and so on. We should do 468 - > another episode together at Money twenty twenty if we have 469 - > time after a couple of our events. But if not, I'd love to 470 - > have this conversation continue on LinkedIn. 471 - > Anyone seeing this episode can go ahead and get in touch with 472 - > both of us and continue learning about your amazing journey.

But 473 - > thank you so much for coming over today, Gustavo, giving us 474 - > this amazing perspective, not only about our region, but what 475 - > has happened as someone who's had a hat of both an innovator 476 - > and a banker and an entrepreneur from here on. Thanks a lot. 477 - > Gustavo Vinacua: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.