Episode 259: Building Trust & Spotting Talent with Caleigh Drane, Technical Recruiter at KunaiTechnical Recruiter at

Speaker A: Welcome back to Talent and Growth. I'm your host, Paul Church. Of course. And today I am joined by Kayleigh Drain, who is a technical recruiter at a business called Kanai in the United States. And we're talking about how to create more of a connection with our candidates to really understand whether they're the right people for the jobs and what they're really looking for, as well as understanding a bit more about what the hiring manager actually needs through our use of questioning, building relationships, looking for those triggers, those green flags, those red flags. So really good conversation around that. And Kayleigh's just really, really insightful around things like this. And it was a pleasure getting your expertise on this topic. And I've certainly come away with some actions from my own interview, so I, ah, hope you enjoy it. Here's Cayley. Kayleigh, you said, uh, emotional intelligence is a key part of your toolkit. So how do you m. Apply that in a recruiting context?

Speaker B: Yeah, so, you know, for me as a recruiter, um, my role is really to be kind of the first step and gateway for any candidates coming through the door to see if they're, you know, going to be a good fit for this role. Um, and me as a recruiter, there's, there's not necessarily like an expertise I'm bringing to any given role. I ramp up on it, but that's not my area of expertise. Uh, what a recruiter's job really is to do is to assess if a person is applying professionalism, candor, personality, willingness, enthusiasm and interest, um, in our conversation. And, uh, I have a background in music and, um, that profession taught me a lot about how to read other people. It's vital in musical performance to assess cues and communication that happens without words. Um, I also contracted a lot of musicians and it wasn't just enough that someone was a dynamic and amazing player. They had to, to be good on the job and be easy to work with. So those skill sets helped me kind of map over when I moved into, um, technical recruiting for software engineers and go to market talent. And there's a lot that I look for there, but really, I think the key thing to drill down to is remembering that you're having a conversation with another human being. How would you connect with somebody anyway? And how do you set the stage for them to feel comfortable, to open up to you, and how are you remaining receptive throughout a conversation to be picking up on those clues to say, okay, they're good communicators. They apply, you know, curiosity, humility, um, problem Solving skills to their experience. And you know, there are ways to listen for how they describe their, their expertise and their experience that help you clue into it. So it's not just enough for them to rattle on all of their accomplishments or what they did. Like it's a laundry list in their past roles. You want to dive in and actually kind of see how did you apply yourself to the challenges of these roles and how did you come out successful and what lessons did you learn?

Speaker A: What signals do you look for then when assessing that and whether, uh, a candidate is going to be right for not just the role but also the environment as well? I guess. What are those things you're trying to pick up on?

Speaker B: Yeah, so one of my favorite tactics actually is to get a story from them. Like, can they describe a time that they applied certain skills or they worked on a project and are able to effectively walk me through the history of that accomplishment, you know, uh, whether it was a really big project that they worked on to, you know, launch a new product, um, what part they had in it, who they reported to, what the challenges were, what their accomplishments were, what the difference that they made, you know, was in the contribution of the project in a way that I can kind of actually envision it, um, to me is a really, really good indicator one because it gives me the full picture of who they are as a professional and it also tells me that they're able to speak to anyone about what they do. Like, you know, a lot of the professionals in general, but especially in my work, I work at a consultancy. You know, um, these candidates are going to be working with a lot of different lines of business. So they need to be able to speak to people, um, of different expertise and levels, um, that aren't just necessarily extremely technical or right in the, you know, right in the pocket of like what they do. If I can't understand what they did on some level, that to me is not a good indication. And I've, historically, I've also seen that end up being the case when they move forward to other, ah, interview stages, um, that for some reason their inability to clearly tell me and explain to me what they worked on ends up being a concerning flag for other sort of inefficiency or, you know, um, uh, kind of underperforming qualities that they might have even on the technical level.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's an interesting point about telling a story because I think we talk a lot about how businesses and talent acquisition need to be able to tell a story to, uh, engage their candidates. But it needs to work the other way. And I think kind of pushing that back and versus engineering, that sounds like a really good initiative.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I try to do the same thing in my own explanations. I'm here to sell a job as well. And if I don't give them a clear picture of what they're walking into, um, my company's model is a little unique. Um, so I need to be very clear on getting them the whole picture of what they're stepping into. Um, also, you know, some people have a predisposed opinion about what a consultancy is. Right. And sometimes it's not always positive. So I want to make sure that I'm really clear in like painting the whole picture so that they can decide for themselves. Um, and I think, yeah, having that reciprocal ability to both, you know, clarify to a candidate and then also receive clarity from a candidate is like a really, really good sign.

Speaker A: Well, what are some of that you mentioned about, um, their inability to do that maybe being a bit of a red flag. What are some of the other red flags? What are some of the ones that maybe you pick up on or maybe someones that, you know, commonly recruiters miss?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Um, one of the biggest ones when I was first starting out in recruiting was letting people rattle on and on about, you know, all their tech technologies, you know, software engineers, they work with a lot of tools none of us have touched. We may not even understand the paradigm of how they work. Right. Um, but if I was listening to someone and how they were describing what they were doing was so dense that I just couldn't follow along, that actually ends up being a red flag. And that comes back to the communication piece. But it also typically means that they're a little bit, maybe more like lone wolf, uh, not good team members if they are just so obsessed in the weeds. Um, a lot of times I think what that indicates future, like in the future might be a sense of pride or stubbornness that they know what's best. Um, another red flag for me is total confidence but vague responses. Oh, yeah, I know this. I totally know that. Oh, yeah, yeah, I know that. Yes, I've definitely done that before. Well, how, like, tell me how, like, why do you know it? Can you provide me a specific example? Um, I love that as a prompt, provide me an example at a time when you blah, blah, blah, um, because you would be really shocked at how many people then don't provide me an example. They say, well, in a situation like that, this is what I would do. I'm like, okay, I get the hypothetical, but anyone can speak in hypotheticals. I want to know when you were actually faced with it and then what did you do? Um, and then I just also wanted to note, I was pondering this question, um, before our conversation today. One thing I wanted to point out that can look like a red flag, but really is not in my opinion, uh, is nervousness. Um, sometimes I get candidates who express nerves either in the call with me or anticipating future interviews. Um, I had a candidate who hadn't interviewed for a single role in like 15 years. He had just been at the same company for a very long time. He was a great candidate and he was an amazing communicator. But he told me point blank, you know, I'm really nervous. I just haven't interviewed in so long and I see that as an incredibly positive signal. That's showing vulnerability, transparency and a willingness to change and face your discomfort. Those are incredible qualities for an employee to have. And then they're very teachable. So, you know, usually what I'll do is coach my candidates through the next phase. And in that particular instance with that candidate who hadn't interviewed for 15 years, he ended up getting a job here. So it really is a very like, uh, for me, a very good metric. Um, whether they say it point blank or they seem a little reserved, you know, like you can talk them through that.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a tightrope business. I think as recruiters, um, we need to challenge the candidate, but we also need to give them a platform to be the best version of themselves and give a bit of support there as well. And you know, I know you're not, you're not mentioning you're not meaning this, but you know, certainly if you're dealing with uh, neurodiverse candidates as well, then certainly that there's another layer to that as well. So it's about getting that balance right. Um, but I think, yeah, I think that's a, that's a really good approach. And I think, you know, if you've got candidates who aren't necessarily used to being in client, client facing roles, for example, why wouldn't they be nervous? You know, they're not, it might not be dealing with people and having these kind of interactions might not be part of the normal day to day. So they may very well be nervous. So that needs to be taken into account as well. Um, how do you, you combine your gut feel with the data or the structured feedback to make those hiring decisions?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I actually, I take a look, good look at my Pass through rate. A lot of times, um, you know, how many candidates do, from my recommendation, end up moving forward until later stages, um, as a really good indicator. Um, and like I said, I've just. I've just over the time, seen the writing on the wall. When I have a gut instinct that feels like I don't know about this person, I can't even tell you. It's almost a guarantee that they're not going to move through even the next round, which is a technical interview. Um, even I've had candidates move through a technical interview. And then they get really, really, like, you know, something becomes a major breakdown in that client interview. And I've learned to pay close attention to that because, um, it's one thing to do internal interviewing with a hiring manager who's maybe a coworker of yours. It's another thing to present candidates to a client who you want know, maintain the company's reputation as, like, look, we find good people for you. Like, really, really good people. Um, and so that really starts with me. And, um, you know, when I have a gut instinct that tells me, even if I can't identify it, so I'm, like, left ambiguous. I'm, like, confused. I'm like, this is. This is likely going to snowball. Um, I just remembered another, like, kind of hard line in the sand I have for red flags that I think is subtle, but very important is, uh, punctuality to two calls. If a candidate doesn't show up on time, um, I will cut the call off after five minutes. I just completely cancel it. And if I have not heard from them, like, in a timely fashion, maybe they're, you know, uh, maybe an emergency came up. Right. I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt. Um, but if they don't come to me very quickly and say, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry, but this happened, like, you know, please accept my apology. Can we reschedule? Then I'm like, okay, sure, yeah, no problem. Like, life happens. But if I don't hear from them or I have to reach out to them to be like, hey, what happened? And they're like, oh, sorry, M. No, that's not a good sign. That's, you know, they. That's where they have to be willing to step forward.

Speaker A: What if they're two minutes late and they don't apologize?

Speaker B: That's okay.

Speaker A: Is it okay?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I've mentioned the US Thing and English thing because I. I do a lot of. I do a lot of, uh, American interview. I screen A lot of candidates in America, and it often they'll be a couple of minutes late and they never apologize. And I'm just like, all right. I think for me, it's a bit. I think if you're a little bit late. Even if I'm a minute late, I usually will apologize. Do you not think that's. Is that not a flag for you?

Speaker B: Well, this is where we have to give culture a little bit of grace. I completely agree with you. I like to be very timely, and if I'm a minute or too late, I will apologize. But I also get that culturally that's not necessarily, necessarily the case with most Americans. And there are plenty of, like, perfectly fine candidates who may show up a minute or two late that I wouldn't otherwise want to, um, you know, let go because of that. I also do a lot of recruiting in Mexico as well, and it can be a similar situation. They show up a couple of minutes late, um, if they get to the four minute mark or like the four and a half minute mark and they don't apologize, then I'm like a little m. Okay. You know, so it is. It's like a very subtle thing. Right?

Speaker A: Two minutes. There's a two minutes. Two minutes. Number two.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah. And, you know, it may sound like I'm kind of a drill sergeant in that way. Although I get you. You totally understand. And I understand that about British culture, too. I've heard that, you know, punctuality is very.

Speaker A: We're too polite, though. We're like too stupidly polite. You know, it's obscene how polite we are. I know. We're ridiculed for being as polite as we are by Europe in particular, maybe the U.S. so, uh, yeah, it's a cultural thing, for sure.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Um, but also, I don't know, I have. I have a back. Um, my family is British too. Part of my family is, too. And, uh, you may be polite, but you're judging silently as well.

Speaker A: So, yes, you are, definitely.

Speaker B: But I digress. So, uh, what was I going to say about that? Yeah, it's again, like, this may seem like a very strong line in the sand, but again, with my experience, if I've given people the benefit of the doubt, I find that they completely abuse that sort of, like, fluidity around commitment, and it only snowballs as the process goes further. So, again, it's like the hints in recruiting are always subtle because this is the very first time you're interacting with people. But I've learned to be very, very sensitive to my Gut feeling about it.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. You talked to me before about getting into the world of the hiring manager. Tell me about how you do that effectively.

Speaker B: Yeah, so just from the get go, um, I treat working with a hiring manager like a partnership. And I also treat it like, um, on a certain level, I'm providing the subject matter expertise. Um, some hiring managers I work with, they do this all the time. They have their own system. They know an interview process and what a successful one looks like, and some of them don't. They're just the head of their department. So this becomes a part of their job and I'm really there to meet them wherever they're at. Um, but the first thing that I always do is establish trust. It is so, so important for a hiring manager to trust you completely. Um, and, you know, it's usually the first thing I say to a hiring manager when I meet them is like, I am here to be your partner and, you know, I'm here to provide you with exactly the candidates that you want. Like, I really assure them that they're going to get to lean on me and I'm going to be the best thing that ever happened to them, uh, in terms of this hiring process. So, um, the next thing that I'll do is sort of get into the world of like, what do they need? You know, talk to me about the issues you're having, like, by not having this candidate right now, um, a little bit of a therapy session sometimes if they're really struggling, because sometimes they, they desperately need that candidate. So I try to find out kind of like the job scope, um, the pain points, and then, you know, have them talk to me about, you know, what are some requirements and qualifications. Qualifications, get those hard stats down and then I bring it back to a soft skill kind of area. Who's the ideal candidate? Do you have anyone in your team right now who's just the model candidate? Um, what hasn't worked in the past? Um, what do you really need from somebody who you're going to be working with day to day? And that's when they kind of, at the very end, tend to open up to me in that conversation. And those typically are the principles that I start looking for the most, actually, aside from the hard requirements, of course. I'm keeping those, like, principles front of mind, you know, um, and a lot of it is, you know, matching the philosophy of the team leader or the hiring manager, rather, you know, they want to work with someone who shares their values. Um, so, yeah, and then, you know, from there, my Next step is to find the candidates that are the best match. The best, best, best match to what they just told me. Um, that way, one, it reiterates the trust that they can have in me and two, it gives me feedback in case there's some like fine tuning points that they want to give me to give more clarity around who to look for.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Okay, so if we try and put a bow on some of the earlier stuff you said, what, what's one piece of advice you give to recruiters who are trying to sharpen their people reading skills?

Speaker B: Mhm. Hmm. I would say practice listening. Um, so many people know, everyone knows how to talk, right? So few people know how to actually listen. Um, so this can happen in your conversations day to day. Um, you know, just get in the world. Like you can, you can ask anybody, ask a friend how your, how their day was going and just really listen to what they're saying and pick up on the tone and the emotion too. And then practice reiterating that back to the person. So with the friend example, if somebody's talking about their day and they're rolling their eyes and they're exasperated and they're going on and on and on about their struggles, you can hear it and sort of reflect back to them what they're really trying to tell you, which is like today was exhausting. And you can say, wow, that sounds really exhausting. And usually you'll see the positive response you'll see from people is like, thank you or I know, like, yes, like there's this relief and openness. Um, and I think that simple practice actually is an incredible way to learn and practice how to understand people on a deeper level so that you're not just accidentally having a bunch of conversations that are really transactional. Um, you're kind of getting into the world of a person and from there you can actually like, your intuition and your human nature will sort of take over for you to start to understand who a person is, what their interests are, what their skill sets are, what their problems are.

Speaker A: If you could build your dream recruiting playbook for others to follow, what would page one look like?

Speaker B: So page one, kind of what I reiterated, uh, about getting into the world of a hiring manager. But I'd say the number one thing is building trust is most important. And don't be afraid to lead the helm and be the advisor. Um, it is really your job to drive this ship in a way. Um, and if a hiring manager needs you to come in to advise on how this process should go, don't be afraid to take that initiative. Um, you are really there as the subject matter expert. Um, and reminding everyone that because of you, this process will be smooth, it will be successful, it will be easy, is one of the best precedents you can set up. Because interview processes can get very messy very quickly. And, um, unfortunately, that. That frustration can get projected back on a recruiter very quickly. So you want to assure everybody involved in the process that you know, you're. You're the best person for the job and that, you know, you're. You're going to be there to. To help guide the whole thing.

Speaker A: Awesome. Kayleigh, thank you so much for being a part of talent and growth.

Speaker B: Thank you, Paul. I appreciate it.

Speaker A: Thank you for looking on today. I appreciate you as always. We keep on going with this podcast. We are going to be hitting 300 episodes before we know it. But in the meantime, if you could hit like or subscribe or follow, I'd appreciate it. It helps us grow our audience and attract great speakers. See you next time.