#110: Who Are You Outside Your Job Title?

Speaker A: Welcome to Stepsero. Modern work is a lot. Let's take it one conversation at a time. My guest today is Costas Kalisperas, an uh, accredited coach and the founder of Intune Executive Coaching. Costas is a former barrister, solicitor and investment banker who now partners with CEOs, senior leaders and their organizations to help unlock their best thinking. In this episode, we explore whether even senior leaders worry about becoming irrelevant. Why identity might be less about your job title and more about your skill set and a skill everyone should take more seriously, regardless of their role. Let's get into it. Kostas, welcome back to Stepsero. Thank you for making the time.

Speaker B: Thank you, Matteo. It's always a pleasure to be with you.

Speaker A: Kostas. We are expecting a lot of change to happen over the next few years. There's tons of reports here and there about that. And essentially the skills that are relevant now may be less crucial in the future. New jobs will be created, professionals will be displaced, and more. There's a lot of talk essentially around future skills reinvention, career identity. It seems to be the main conversation at the moment and of course it never really lands on a, uh, straightforward or clear answer. It's a very complex topic at, ah, times polarizing. There's a lot of advice out there, but a lot of uncertainty as well. You are someone who coaches high caliber executives. You have a lot of relevant experience yourself across several disciplines. And I'm hoping you can help me understand what the sentiment for people at that level is in a way. So from the outside it may look like someone who's at the C level at the moment, has everything figured out. But do you believe there is a concern that in the future you may not be as relevant as you are now? Is this something that is even spoken about in those pass midterm circles?

Speaker B: Such an interesting and as you say, broad, uh, ranging topic and question, Matteo? Uh, I think it's natural. Maybe I'm just getting old. By the way, it's natural to feel that your, uh, imminent redundancy, uh, is just around the corner. So I think that's a natural human state of mind, right? Regardless of AI and technology that I'm sure we'll talk about. So I think the concept of being concerned about whether the skills that got you here, as somebody almost said, will get you there, I think is a natural human instinct. Right? So our sense of self protection, our sense of relevance is a constant theme throughout one's career. Uh, and I think there are ways that you can tackle that proactively if you're mindful of that particular challenge. So I don't think this challenge is new, but I do think that technology and how quickly it's changing the way we work has probably brought it more to focus to more people in the current climate that we work in. So we can disaggregate some of that. But I think the instinct of being concerned about remaining relevant is I think an inevitable one regardless of career and regardless of role.

Speaker A: I mentioned future skills, reinvention, career identity. Like you said, there's a lot to unpack. Um, and it's a really broad topic. I'd like to focus at least in the first part of the conversation on the idea of career identity. I wonder how much do you think people at that level identify with their job and do you see it as a good thing, a bad thing or neither?

Speaker B: Yeah, very much so. I identified with my job for 20 years as an investment banker. Uh, letting that go actually took me a couple of years of uh, almost self therapy, self reflection, uh, because certainly it gave me a status, I suppose, which sounds a bit pompous, but I mean it, uh, because I'm aware of the packaging that goes around certain titles. I coach very senior successful people who I think see themselves through their job, through their role, through their seniority. And I certainly found it difficult to let some of that go. Now listen, being part of an environment which you feel relates to who you are, if it's the right environment for you, actually is incredibly motivating. So there's nothing wrong with identifying with your job, provided you continue to find it enjoyable, rewarding and helps you achieve, right the growth in yourself that you are looking for. For. I think where it becomes more harmful is where you hold onto it when those uh, those characteristics no longer exist, right? When you no longer are enjoying it, where it's no longer personally rewarding, where frankly it destabilizes or unbalances the other aspects of your life. And that's where you risk burnout or you risk other kind of mental health related issues that cause you to stay in the job because that's who you identify with rather than think about the what may be better for you going forward.

Speaker A: You know, I've, I've read quite a bit on this topic, not only in preparation for this conversation with you, but also in general. It's a concern for lots of people at many levels, in many organizations. And there is for example, a piece I'd love to mention because I thought it was phenomenal by Geoff Curtis. He writes on Fortune. He speaks about this he, uh, calls it professional identity purgatory. And uh, he talks about his experience basically after an acquisition that made his role redundant. And he speaks about entering this intermediate phase, this middle ground phase, after losing this identity that you've spent your whole career building.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And so he calls it purgatory because you're neither in hell or in heaven, you're somehow stuck in the middle and you're in this, uh, messy middle phase of maybe reinventing yourself. And I also had a guest recently on the podcast, Nikki Barua. She's the co founder of Flipwork. She also speaks about reinvention in the age of AI. Very relevant topic, very related to what we're discussing now. She says that I'm paraphrasing her idea, but the number one blocker to reinvention is exactly identity. So like you said, people tend to hold onto it a bit too tightly and they have a hard time letting it go. Do you specifically agree with that? Can identity be a big blocker? Can it be an obstacle to essentially moving forward?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think what you've touched on is actually an area where I, uh, increasingly coach very senior people. So I'm in my, you know, dare I age myself, late 50s. Once you get to a senior position in your mid-40s onwards. Right. You're always constantly thinking about relevance as we started the conversation and about what you may or may not choose to do next. And the biggest challenge in those in that phase of one's career is assessing whether what you have been doing, especially if your identity is so linked to it, can translate into something else. Um, and what I coach is in fact that your identity is not your job. Your identity is your skillset. And your skillset can actually be applicable to a very different job. So in fact, uh, when you're in this kind of more senior mid level role and you're trying to work out what to do next, and it's links to how you remain resilient, which we'll talk about in the context of AI. It's actually thinking about, well, what skills do I have that are marketable? And if you are able to articulate them succinctly, it is very possible that someone in a very different industry for a very different role sees that skill set as useful. So I don't think you should be looking for jobs anymore. And I, by the way, I think this applies even when you start your career. And I coach younger people too, pro bono when they're in the earlier stages of their career. I don't think you should be applying for jobs, or even if you are applying for jobs, obviously you should be thinking about what skills do I have that apply to this role? Because your identity is the combination of skills that you possess which are transferable. I'm on my fifth or sixth career, depending on how you cut it. I've been fortunate, uh, to be able to make those moves. But as I reflect on those moves now, with the benefit of my coaching kind of toolkit, based on having been a coach now for six, seven years, I realized that some of the things that I coach people to focus on are the reasons they are able to sustain career reinvention or career progression in an uncertain time. And that is primarily a sense of curiosity. Curiosity and a sense of continual learning. And if you are constantly curious and you instill that not only in your own sort of style, but in those around you, you can continue to use your skillset to apply it to different situations, different roles, different jobs, admittedly. But that's not the way you should think about your identity, uh, in terms of jobs you should think about in terms of skill sets and potential roles.

Speaker A: Let's talk about then. Skills of the future. Right? You already gave me a good glimpse into that. We both had a look at the Future of jobs report from 2025 by the World Economic Forum, and there is this table which is very interesting. It's about the core skills in 2025. It's essentially a ranking showing which skills are considered important by the employers that took part in the survey. Right.

Speaker B: Essentially.

Speaker A: And analytical thinking is at the top of the ranking. But then in the top 10, we're talking about the list of. I, uh, have it here. 26 core skills at the top of the ranking. In the top 10, you have things like resilience, um, flexibility, agility, creative thinking, motivation, empathy, curiosity. And you're kind of leading me to that. Like, these are all skills that are extremely relevant. They have been relevant for a while, apparently. They will be. They'll continue to be relevant in the future, but they're also quite hard to put on a cv. How do you think can one make them feel like, uh, somehow a credible part of your professional, if not identity, your professional profile without making them come across as soft traits?

Speaker B: No, I think that's really putting your finger on the dynamic that goes on these days, both from an employer perspective and an employee perspective. And I think I, I heard one of your other podcasts might tell with people more experienced than I in that recruitment space. But the joke today is that applicants write their CVs with AI and recipients assess them through AI. So the idea that anyone's going to assess what you've called soft, which I have always called integral, in fact, to leadership. Right. I think is almost impossible unless employers get wise to the idea that human judgment of these skills is the key. I am now increasingly hired by people to help them assess candidates for senior roles. And I remind them, um, that it's easy to hire for skills, technical skills. Everyone has a cv. They explain the technical things they've done. Very hard to hire. Temperament is what I call it. Temperament. How do you manage your ego? My favorite topic, as you know, in difficult moments. How do you empower others rather than micromanage them? How do you apply critical thinking to an AI outcome? Yeah, how do you do the things that actually involve judgment, curiosity, analytical thinking, beyond the obvious? And so how do you capture some of that? And I think over time, the irony of AI, I believe, is that it'll increase the understanding of the importance of these human elements that actually ultimately derive better outcomes for organizations and for individuals in a way that at the moment I think is misunderstood. The sense is that we'll do everything by AI, but if everything is commoditized by AI, what is difficult to commoditize? It's temperament. Right? It's the way you extract insights from different perspectives. It's the way you challenge critically, it's the way you remain curious. It's the way you actually create agility, flexibility, all the things you've alluded to in this report, which is not something today, at least, that AI can replicate, but that you have to embrace the tools and you have to apply human skills to them. I haven't answered your question. How do you explain that? As you said in a cv, I think people are getting wiser to the idea that at least zoom interviews or in person conversations or some sort of informal networking added to AI analysis, um, is going to become more important, I believe, over time. And the enlightened leaders will make sure that their processes, uh, include that element. Last observation, I call my business intune, as you know. Why do I call it that? Uh, I think self awareness, frankly, is the key to agility. Because if you understand your own reactions or potential, uh, responses to things, if you understand what drives other people, then you're more likely to respond in a way that's constructive. And it's those skills, Matteo, that'll keep you agile, that'll keep you flexible, that will allow you to embrace technology, but actually critically assess the outcomes it gives You.

Speaker A: Can I make the last 2, 3 minutes of the conversation about you and your own experience?

Speaker B: Sure. I mean, it'll be less interesting for your listeners, but go, uh, ahead.

Speaker A: I'm sure it will be. Look, you. You've been on the show a few times now, and I think that a lot of people across many different roles and many different industries would appreciate your take on a few things, especially when it comes to subject like these. Now, you have operated in different fields. You've been successful across different disciplines. Law, banking and more. So I think you know a thing or two about reinvention, about, uh, adaptation, if anything. Did it ever feel to you like you were starting over, or, let's say, recontextualizing who you were?

Speaker B: Every time. Matteo, I'm not telling you this stuff is easy. Every single time. I was a barrister, which is a corporate advocate to begin with. I had to become a corporate finance solicitor. Different exams, different skill sets. I felt like a fish out of water. I go to do my mba, I become an investment banker at the bottom of the keep, and I'm reporting to people of my age who are three ranks above me. Again, pretty tough. I joined private equity, I start angel investing. But I think the most challenging moment was at the age of 50, becoming, uh, an executive coach and, um, wondering how on earth anyone would take me seriously reinventing myself at such a middle, uh, age, let's put it that way. Right? So it's never easy, but I think that the skill, that the core skill that you need is to remain curious. I go back to this. Ask questions, not assume that what you're told in a new environment is the only way it's done. Because often actually, by being curious, by being actually less knowledgeable in a new environment, uh, you can ask kind of so called dumb questions. And as I've discovered in my life, there is no such thing. Because by asking it, you realize the three people you've asked, it give you a different answer, which means it wasn't so dumb because you're being curious enough to challenge the context in which, uh, the analysis is being undertaken or the decision is being made, and so on and so forth. So, um, I was asked a question. So the answer to your question is a long winded one. But I was asked a question at a recent webinar I did at Nottingham Business School, and they said, well, where do you get your confidence from Costas as a coach? And I said, that's interesting. Well, I hope I'm not being arrogant. Uh, but let me tell you what Confidence is, confidence is not sitting in a room or looking in the mirror and saying, you can do this, yeah, you're going to change, but you can do this. That doesn't get you anywhere. The only way you build the ability to reinvent is by doing so. In the first two or three years of being a coach, I think I was okay. But the more I did it, the more I realized, in fact I could help leaders be more effective. And the more you see the results of your input, the results of your work, the more comfortable you get in realizing you actually have some value to offer. So this idea of reinvention doesn't happen easily. I felt it had imposter thoughts every time I made a change. My curiosity, my intellectual humility maybe got me through it. But somehow I built enough credibility by being curious, by working hard, obviously by catching up in the areas I didn't understand to, I guess, succeed. But ultimately it's about realizing that only by doing and initially working harder perhaps than the incumbents. If you're changing your career and proving yourself, do you get credibility externally. But far more importantly, do you realize that in fact, uh, you are able to add value in your new environment? Doesn't come easily, doesn't come overnight, but it's about being self aware enough to, uh, put in the hours and put in the thinking that it takes.

Speaker A: Looking back on all of that, is there any skill or piece of yourself, of your own identity that you would give up entirely?

Speaker B: That I would give up? No. I don't know. That's a difficult one because it depends on context. I think the one that I hold onto, which I think has sustained me and which I encourage all leaders at every level to embrace and not to think of as a soft skill, is the ability to deal with conflict, to deal with differences between people, which is often the biggest challenge of all of us, and we've talked about it in various ways to be, uh, humble in how you analyze differences, not judge people's behaviors, not apply your values to self righteously, to situations and seek to find common ground. It sounds like a soft skill. It is the most difficult skill. But if you are able to embrace it and build on it, that is often the skill, regardless of role, regardless of title, regardless of industry, that actually makes you productive and successful and that people grow to value. You know, we talked about, you know, uh, difficult board meetings, we talked about, you know, dealing with difficult people, difficult situations. These all come down to who in the room can help us make progress by embracing difference of opinion, by enhancing collaboration and by helping people work together, even if they have a very different approach to begin with. So I think the skill I would hold onto and I would encourage everybody to think about is that.

Speaker A: Kostas, as always, thank you so much for making the time, and I, uh, expect you to be on step zero, maybe next week or a few weeks from now.

Speaker B: Look forward to it. Matteo, it's great to see you.