Map Labs - Evan Oder

Speaker A: All right, welcome to the podcast on today's show with Evan from maplabs. For people who don't know what is maplabs?

Speaker B: Well, thanks for having me. First of all, of course, uh, MapleLabs is a software and service company that helps businesses succeed on maps, mostly Google and Apple. So we help with analytics, strategy, and really just helping businesses stand out.

Speaker A: All right, so there's a bunch of reasons I wanted to talk to you. One is personal. Obviously, we're opening up this venue here next year, maybe like, eight, nine months out. But it's a new world in the sense where it's like back in the day, everyone just had their Yellow Pages, uh, or they just drove on the street that they grew up on, or Main street, and they found, like, your hardware store, your coffee shop, your bookstore. And that was how it was today with the. With the advent of the Internet, People have to exist online. And so what problem did you see, like, when it came to how people were either putting their listings online as a business, like, what did you. What did you first see and say, I think we can help with this? Or what problems were you seeing?

Speaker B: The biggest problem is most businesses don't actually know how to measure whether, like, what they're. How big their presence is or isn't. So, you know, I don't.

Speaker A: I see.

Speaker B: We. We don't do what we would define, like, as SEO. Right. SEO is this, like, catch all term that basically means anything that you do on a search engine.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But the reality is, if you look at how these platforms really work, there's different little micro ecosystems. Right. There's this paid search, there's ads, there's the map, which a lot of people call, like, the map pack. And then you have, like, web results where, like, you want to get your website ranking. Sure. So these are three different, like, kind of focus areas and three different ways to get into search. But most businesses fail to understand how to actually measure the benefit that they're getting from it and really their visibility

Speaker A: or like, the effectiveness of the posting that they made.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so today, today's consumer, like, I guess maybe when the Internet first came out, just Google, you go on Google, and Google's responsible for a bunch of search today. YouTube's a part of that. But if you're like us, you're driving around, you open up your Maps app, and you're gonna search within your Maps app for a very specific thing. And there's shortcuts, there's gasoline, there's coffee shops.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: And so in that setting, you wanna make sure that you're, I guess, at least accurate. Your information is accurate.

Speaker B: Yeah. And the, uh, big challenge is that results are dynamic. So, like, you know, when I came here today, right. I googled coffee shops and then maybe in a few hours from now, one of them and one of them is closed and the results are going to change in real time, basically.

Speaker A: Oh, interesting.

Speaker B: And so most businesses basically struggle to even understand, like, how does Google work? And then they get frustrated on, like, oh, well, why am I not number one? Everybody wants to be number one.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: Okay, only one person can be number one at any given time.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: But the truth is, if we both pulled out our phones right now and we search the exact same thing in the same spot, we'll probably get different results based on like, my behavior being different from yours.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: You know, like, my wife's vegetarian. Right. So it's like if she went out and did a search and search for restaurants, she's going to get more vegetarian based choices and not steakhouses. And if you are a meat eater and you eat steak all the time, Google is going to know that too. And so. Okay, so what we, what I really set out to solve at maplabs was like, how do we be objective about this? Right. Like, the most frustrating thing is you pay a marketing company tons of money and then they send you a report that doesn't make any sense that says you're performing better than maybe you really are. And like the classic one is like rank tracking. So it's like, oh, you're number one for this keyword or you're number five. And then you go and you Google that and it's not the same as what the report says.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: So what we basically set out to do at Maple Labs is to really take, uh, all of our data does come from Google, so it's really their first party data.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But what we look at are things that are objective. Like, how many views did you get, how many direction requests did you get? So for like hospitality businesses and, you know, storefront businesses, that's literally foot traffic walking into your door. And we've corroborated this countless times with businesses where direction requests go up, foot traffic is up, direction requests down, foot traffic's down. Yeah, those data points during COVID were ridiculously accurate. Like, you know, it's like literally like end of February and then March comes in like 98% of their traffic. Just because that's what happened in the real world.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So things like that is kind of how we approach it and try to be more objective instead of like kind of smoke and mirrors, which is like what our industry standard really basically is.

Speaker A: So when you first. What year did you start at? 2014.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah.

Speaker A: Okay, so 2014. And you could be doing anything, right? You could be doing all sorts of stuff. So what did you see?

Speaker B: No. Geez.

Speaker A: Everybody's saying that now there's a million

Speaker B: things you could have wish.

Speaker A: But what did you see in the market that you were like, this seems like an interesting problem. And we obviously, I think the addressable market's massive. It's every business on Main street, which is every. It's every business anywhere that's easy that I get. But what did you see that drew you to want to like, commit to spending your, your time on it, your life on it?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I graduated school in 2010 from Florida Atlantic, uh, down in Florida. And my first job was at a digital marketing agency. And it was mostly targeting e commerce businesses. So.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I was prospecting leads, I was doing cold calling, I was doing sales. And so that was really like my intro to digital. Yeah. So it's 2010 and you know, smart, uh, iPhone came out a few years before and what I kind of saw happening like this was like right around the time when Groupon went huge.

Speaker A: Sure. Yeah.

Speaker B: And what I kind of saw is like local and mobile is probably that next kind of like area of innovation. And so after working for an agency for about a year, I was like, I'm going to go do my own thing.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I started doing like local text message marketing.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So I was trying to figure out how are local and mobile are going to kind of affect the future.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then I ended up starting actually like a, ah, local SEO company.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Because I was like, all right, well, search is huge. I learned a lot about search marketing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then around like 2014, that's when Google launched what's now today called Google Business Profiles.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Formerly known as Google. My business and what I was struggling with at the local SEO company was attribution reporting. Uh, had a lot of churn because.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: I knew I was helping my clients get higher positioning, but I couldn't quite put it together that like that position was driving the people through the door. And so when I saw that, I saw like a metric like direction request for the first time.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They didn't have it before Google my business. And when I saw that, I was like, that's how we're going to measure this shit in the future.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And then I also believe that Like, Maps really was its own channel.

Speaker A: 100%.

Speaker B: Like, when I go out and I'm traveling or I'm trying to get even if. Even if you know where you're going, Maps is its own channel.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so I really viewed it as like, Maps is kind of like this thing that's not going to go anywhere. Humans have used maps for thousands of years. Even if the version of the map will change in the future, there's always going to be a map that's going to help us navigate the real world.

Speaker A: Totally.

Speaker B: And so I really focused in on those two things. Like, I can actually measure what it's doing in the real world. And it's also not going to just disappear. Like, if I'd focused on social media marketing, I'd have to hop channels four or five times by now. Or have to manage four or five channels simultaneously in the report.

Speaker A: Yeah, right, exactly.

Speaker B: And so then scalability, too. I just thought about it that way, where it's like, it's going to be here in 10 years. And also, um, I know very, very few companies will be able to challenge Google's dominance there.

Speaker A: Obviously, you've been doing this for a while, over 10 years. So when it comes to, like, your favorite story or like, where you really help the business out, uh, do you have, like an anecdotal story?

Speaker B: Oh, that's a good question. We have so many good stories.

Speaker C: Sure.

Speaker B: That, um, I can't think of just like, any one right now.

Speaker A: Yeah. Or what is the classic.

Speaker B: The best feeling, though, is when I show them, hey, we got you more phone calls, more direction requests. And they say, uh, we feel it. Like, yeah, that's the best feeling. Because it validates like that. That was what I wanted to solve for, is like, that I can't. I don't just say that something happened. Good.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That you actually felt that something happened good.

Speaker A: And then you have the reporting to match it so they can see it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: At the beginning, when you first start, when you take on a new client, is it. Are there just a bunch of m mistakes they're making out of the jump or, like, are there like, classic things like, I don't know, they're just not accurately representing. I mean, it happens a bunch. Like, you go to a place and the hours aren't accurate or something's off.

Speaker B: Little things like that are always frustrating. Like, as a consumer. And then like, you talk to the business owner and you're like, yeah, like, you know, have you ever. Has that ever happened to you? And they're like, yeah, it's so annoying. It's like, well you're, you're doing that, you're doing customers. Like, but I don't, I wouldn't say business are making any real mistake other than like they mostly just set it and forget it. Right? Like yeah, they pop up on the map, they verify their page, they start getting reviews and they're like, cool, I'm done. And then they turn around and like post every day on social media and build these and spend thousands of dollars on their website. And then I go to their listing and it's like they haven't added pictures in eight years. They don't respond to the reviews, they don't list their menu.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Like you think about like how your consumers are gonna basically transact with you and like, especially like in hospitality. Yeah, they don't want to leave Google.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: Like how often, like, I'm not saying that your website's stupid or you shouldn't have one, but it's like if you really think about what consumers want, you meet them where they are, they wanna, exactly. They wanna make that decision without having to go to another website, without having to their page, without having to go to a different page to make a reservation or whatever. And so like the biggest mistake businesses make is that they don't complete their listing. Basically they just put their name, address, phone number and their hours and then they like don't touch it for years or whatever. And the reality is that that's where a lot of the wins are.

Speaker A: This is really funny. So you're reminding me of something. So every development we've done, like because it's our development, we get professional photography taken. Uh, and so then I think every development I've done the photos, the first photos on Google Maps, the most liked photos are the ones that we put up pre opening. But they're like beautiful. They're like, but no one's in them, but they're all beautiful. And I get the emails being like, oh, your Google photo has like 2 million views. And it's like, yeah, I did it again. But in that it's the only time I do it, then I'm out. And then the rest of the, I would say the photos are just people. The user, the user photos. Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker B: And both of those are really good, right? Totally.

Speaker A: But people should, if you're going to put on social media, you might as well just put it everywhere else.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And then the other kind of hidden secret there is like Google's been using AI for like a decade now with photos. Like, we've only just started talking about it, but, like, sure, they've been doing AI for a decade. Like, they bought DeepMind in 2013. The rank brain is kind of what they call, like the back end of Google for the AI piece and the ranking.

Speaker A: So are you saying like, it's scanning the photos and looking for specific objects? Yeah.

Speaker B: So like, if you put in a bunch of pictures of coffee, it sees coffee. Coffee shop. Right. And if users upload pictures, it also helps. But the higher resolution an image, the more professional, the more pixels, the more data, easier it can read it. I was just talking to like a optometry chain the other day and I showed them that in their pictures. Uh, they've only uploaded like three to all of their listings. And one of them is like a family standing in front of the window. And it has like, Tom Ford, like, in the display and it's so small, it's like you'd have to like, squint to see it. And you throw it into Google's AI image reader and it like, clearly sees Tom Ford. So it's like Tom Ford near me, sunglasses near me.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And so it's like, it's a great also way to take advantage of AI, but also keep your listing looking nice.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Like, most of the things we focus on is like, everybody wants to like, how do I trick Google? It's like, can't trick Google, but you can, you can do things that will make it more likely. And the benefit is that both of these, almost all of our strategies, is also about making it easier for users.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So it's like, put great pictures on your listing because that's going to help you with Google, but it's also going to make your listing more attractive and make it more likely that somebody's going to stop what they're doing and be like, holy shit, that coffee, that sandwich looks amazing. That's where I want to go.

Speaker A: I call it petting the algorithm. You just want to pet the algorithm. You know, you don't want to control it, doesn't want to be controlled, but you can pet it every now and again.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay. And so you guys manage all that? The company manages all of it? Or how do you. Or do you work with them specifically? Or do you just handle it on the back end?

Speaker B: We started as like a full service company. So 2014, 2015, there was no software that we could really build at the time. And so it's more just like we'll just do it for you we'll do all the heavy lifting.

Speaker A: Agency model?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, basically like an agency model, but more of like a productized service. Like, sure, I don't do websites, I don't like do social media. We try to stay really specialized with maps and local. We do manage Google Ads.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: But uh, and so over the years it has evolved. So now we also have a software as a service.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And our software is basically designed to pick up where Google's left off. So like if you're a chain or you just want to automate some things, like Google doesn't offer that. And so our software gives you time back. So it mostly saves you time in administrative tasks. Yeah. And then now we also offer coaching on top of that and consulting. So like, okay, one of our most common plans right now is like, come talk to me and talk to our team and like we'll explain to you how this all uh, works and we'll teach your team how to do it yourselves.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so now it's like that kind of full stack. Like you could do it yourself, we could do it with you or we can continue to do it for you. But doing it for you really is more just like, hey, like, do you have an extra uh, 20, 30 hours a month to do some of this stuff yourself? If not, we'll do those tasks. But our strategies and our advice is going to be the same regardless.

Speaker A: So let me ask you. Well, first of all, and we'll put this in the link, we're doing a three month freebie to anybody listening, which is fun and I'll make sure all of our developments get on it, which is awesome. But let me ask you, when you, so you're, you're sort of in it, so where do you see it going? And so I'll give you a quick, like, I'll lead the witness a little bit. So at the beginning, uh, Google was basically just photos. And then at some point in the photos on your phone, it starts to feel like Instagram, right. Where you can like swipe, there's videos and all this stuff. So it's like, oh wow, it's like the Instagram ification of Google Maps. Where is it going? Like, is video content becoming the most relevant thing? Like if I'm a listing and I want to compete and again like we can totally be wrong in this space. But where do we think it's going in terms of the listings?

Speaker B: I don't know that it's gonna change that much, which is kind of cool. I think that I guess that Makes

Speaker A: it, it simplifies it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah, I think that all those things are gonna be combined though. Like having high quality video, great user generated content. Reviews I think is gonna be the forever foundation.

Speaker A: That's probably number one, right? I would imagine.

Speaker B: I think it's number one from like uh, the consumer side of things. Like. Yeah, you know, and it definitely weighs out with the algorithm too. But like I could also show you examples where like a restaurant with 200 reviews is ranking higher than a restaurant with 5,000 reviews.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So there's like some recency bias built into Google as well. So like you know, maybe you've been around for 10 years and that's why you have more reviews. But maybe in the last three months my, my newer restaurant is, it has higher volume in the last three months.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So it's not like a panacea. Like getting more reviews isn't like the only way that it works. But, but I think like from that like engagement and behavioral signal side, that's really where Google's moved towards is like they know what the best restaurant in town is, the most popular, uh, concert hall. They know where people are in the world. So people interacting with your listing is going to be, is really the number one ranking factor. And that encompasses reviews, it encompasses direction requests, gps. Okay, but really like the only thing that I think is going to massively change potentially is how AI and chat based searches steal some market share from Google. But what's going to happen in my view is that all those services are going to do is pull from these sources.

Speaker A: Are you saying? So this is interesting. So now the user, let's. The user case for me is right now on my phone, I almost never open Safari to Google something. I'll go right to the ChatGPT app.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so are you suggesting like, okay, I'm going to go to ChatGPT and say, hey, what Italian restaurant should I go to tonight in L. A? And then it's just going to pull. So it's going to get an API from Google Maps and feed it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And ChatGPT, because Microsoft owns it, they're going to try to use a little bit of Bing magic. But Bing is the most outdated platform in local search. It literally hasn't been updated in 10 years. If you go to log into Bing places right now, it still has the Google icon on the login which tells you how outdated their whole. How many people are using ChatGPT is polling from multiple sources. And so that's definitely, I think like kind of what's going to happen there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then Google has its own AI Search Gemini and things like that. And so the question is, how much market share are they really going to lose and where does that deviate to?

Speaker A: That's really interesting.

Speaker B: The bigger thing is that Apple is starting to get more competitive, and a lot of people use Apple Maps by default because it's just what comes in their iPhone.

Speaker A: That's right. They made it harder now to set your default as Google Maps.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you can still do it, but a lot of people don't care. And so. And I was even having a conversation with somebody the other day. It's like they're not in a mutual, exclusive relationship with Google or Apple. So, like, maybe they'll search a business on Google and then they'll navigate with Apple. And so we are, uh, we've been dabbling with Apple for about two years now, and we're officially about to launch our software component for it. But Apple's interesting because it provides a very similar platform to Google Maps. Now, for the first 10 years of Apple Maps, like the business side, it was very static. There wasn't a lot you could do beyond like your hours. Apple was trying to basically do it themselves. They didn't want basically businesses or users to contribute. But they finally woke up and realized that that's why Google Maps is better, because people can make a change. They can suggest an edit, they can upload content and media, and then businesses can fix incorrect information on their own. So about two years ago, Apple relaunched their backend. And now, uh, it's called Apple Business Connect.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And it provides very similar insights, like how many directions, how many views. It also tells you, like, how people found you.

Speaker A: Now you got to do both, and

Speaker B: now you got to do both. And so Apple is investing billions to catch up to Google. And I see that as more of a direct threat, but an opportunity for our company. You know, like, I don't really care if you use Google or Apple or Waze or whatever, but like, reality is like Maps is its own channel, is my view. So it's like social media marketing, you know, digital advertising, like paid search channels. And then it's like Maps is like its own ways.

Speaker A: Pulls from Google Maps, right? Yeah.

Speaker B: Google owns Waze.

Speaker A: Did Apple launch with Yelp?

Speaker B: Was that a thing they used? They, uh, use some of Yelp's data set. So, like, if you don't have. So like Apple's secretly harvesting their own reviews? Not so secretly, but okay. Basically, like, if you don't have any Apple reviews Apple Maps reviews, they'll just pull from. Yeah, they'll pull From Yelp or TripAdvisor or OpenTable, whatever is the best source. But, like, Yelp is, like, kind of one of the defaults.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Um, but Apple, though, has their own review system that they're building up. So Apple takes the long road on everything.

Speaker A: Jesus.

Speaker B: They want to do it all from scratch.

Speaker C: Sure.

Speaker B: Uh, I could get on my soapbox and be like, apple should have just bought Yelp. But Yelp has such a bad reputation with local businesses. And maybe people don't feel that way around here.

Speaker A: No, I've never heard anything good.

Speaker B: Yeah, but, like, if you talk to 100 businesses, 99 of them would be like, I will never give Yelp a single dollar. Like, they have burned the bridge with so many businesses.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: Yet they still make $2 billion a year. So they're doing something right on that spectrum. But with ads. Yeah, with ads. But Yelp, effectively. Like, most consumers don't realize this, but Yelp is basically a pay to play directory. If you pay Yelp, you show up higher. If you don't, you show up lower.

Speaker A: Makes sense.

Speaker B: Google has sponsored advertising, but there's no direct link that says that if you do Google Ads, that your organic listing benefits.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And if anything, that'd be a terrible business model because, like, why would they give you more free traffic when you pay for, like, if anything, want the opposite. Right.

Speaker A: Do you have the numbers on search? And so for. If I'm. If I'm a human being looking to go somewhere, I assume Google Maps is one. What's like two through five?

Speaker B: Two is Apple Maps. Okay. So. And, um, we did a study on this. We're going to refresh this very soon. But Apple is bigger than Yelp. Do you have the delta? It goes like Google Maps, Apple Maps, Yelp, and then Bing. And they're like, each like an order of magnitude bigger than the other.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Or several. Actually, I just did this last week. Like, Google for one of our clients right now is getting 52 times the number of views that Apple is getting.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And then Apple's getting like, you know, 50 times the views of Yelp for that same business.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And then Yelp's getting like 10 to 20 times more views than Bing. But for like, every thousand clicks you get on Google, you might get one on Bing. Like, literally.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: So, like, Google and Apple are the top two. And then Yelp can be regionally more relevant. Like you might find, like, in a more tourist market or an area like San Francisco where Yelp is born and has just more of like a following. Those numbers might shift and change but that's like the, the general framework is like Google, Apple, Yelp, Bing and then behind that like Waze is a navigation app. But you can't actually like put your business on Waze. Like there's no like there's no back end tool that like you can manage

Speaker A: your can pay for like a digital billboard or something but that's it.

Speaker B: Actually not anymore. Uh, so like 18 months ago they literally canceled all Waze advertising services and were like go advertise on Google. So there is no longer a way to even go to Waze and advertise directly.

Speaker A: So now it's through Google.

Speaker B: It's through Google.

Speaker A: So you get a two for one deal.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So interesting.

Speaker A: M okay.

Speaker B: And then beyond that it's like TomTom, like MapQuest, they're out there, they still doing stuff.

Speaker A: But this is so fascinating pre to this conversation I hadn't even considered Apple Maps to be honest with you, which sounds so stupid now when I say it after hearing you talk about it.

Speaker B: What we see in our data is that if you look at a business profiles presence on Google and this is just like an overall average like 80% of their traffic is coming from a non branded search. So like you know, restaurants near me, tire shop near me, whatever and 20% is branded. I'm looking for the pawn shop, I'm m looking for uh, you know, farm, Farm coffee. Right. So like got it. So that's like kind of a general framework for Google for hospitality On Apple it's the opposite. It's 20% non branded search, you know, categorically driven things. And 80% branded search which basically the way I interpret that is like people are using Apple more for nav mhm. Than for discovery.

Speaker A: They already know where they're going.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But there's a piece of it that is growing which is the discovery component. And what we see happening is that when you actually put a little bit of effort into Apple you can grow that the discovery part a bit, but it's going to take a little bit longer for them to actually fully catch up. And I think what Apple's doing is exactly what they should have been doing five and 10 years ago, which is like let businesses add their own pictures, let them engage with the platform, let them show you what their business is all about. And then Apple, we don't really know what their algorithm is, but we assume it works on more localized kind of data sets. Right. Or just really? Based on proximity. Yeah, it's not a black box. But they're not going to use as much behavioral data as Google is because you know, the privacy company. Sure. Which is there's some uh, conflicts of it's good branding. Yeah. Well, the funny thing is like five years ago, Google used to show you like a heat map of like where your direction requests came from. So not like not saying like, oh, Diego came from. They're not telling you who, they're just saying like this is a heat map and this is like approximately where people were when they requested directions. Yeah. Google got rid of that for privacy concerns. And when Apple launched Apple Business Connect, they basically copied Google and they have it and they have that. So now I can go into Apple and see where do people come from, but I can't do that on Google.

Speaker A: That's so funny.

Speaker B: So you know, but Apple moves slow and like they just launched this new Apple Business Connect, like new like about two years ago now. And like. Yeah, but the update before that took them 10 years to do. So like faster than Bing, but much slower than Google.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And so where's the business today? Like how many clients do you have? How do you price your business, your offering?

Speaker B: Yeah, we're working with about like 10,000 like locations. So we measure it in size of like how many profiles are actively using our platform.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then we then kind of look at that through those three levels of service. Like software coaching. Uh, full service.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Most of the business is still actually in the full service side, so like a little more than like 60%.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And then the other 40 kind of fall into like the self serve slash like coaching kind of engagement.

Speaker A: And for the people listening for like the companies listening, what do you guys charge for the full service or just like the coaching? What's, how do you price it out?

Speaker B: So coaching is the easiest one to answer because it's like you just pay for time. Right. Uh, uh, our other products and services are based on how many profiles you have.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: You know, so like coaching starts at like 250 bucks an hour.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: We usually recommend like four hours a month to get started. And if you do that for like three months, we'll get through like what I think of as like boot camp. It's like do this, do that, do this, like build those processes, get those habits going. And then after that, like depending on how well you're picking up on it, we can move that to like once a month, once a quarter. So we can kind of customize the coaching piece.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: On the software side it starts as low as like 30 bucks a month per profile and then we, and then it can go up from there.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: But we try to price things in like a tier. So like, you know, if you're a multi location business, we try to do it where it's like you know, $2,000 a month for up to you know, 2,000 listings or whatever. That's not, that's not a price. Don't quote that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I got you.

Speaker B: But we try to make it just easy to budget in and we try to make it so that you know, that's an easy. Yes obviously. But the big value then is like how much time is it saving you? The only reason you're going to buy our software is if there are tasks you want to automate that are taking up a lot of your time. So like if you're a multi location business, bulk uploading pictures, uh, is onerous. Natively Google has a feature called post or updates. And like if you want to bulk post it, you can't do that natively. With Maple Labs you can, we have like a review response system.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Google's also notorious of like you change your information, then Google gets a user that says something different and they'll override your information. And so our software can also like monitor and manage that, that feedback. So it's like somebody changed your hours and it's different than what's on Maple Labs. MatLabs cancels that out and overrides it.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So there's like things that are frustrating if you're managing your listing that like a repetitive tasks that you do over and over again. And so the software really cures that.

Speaker A: That's awesome.

Speaker B: Um, and then full service starts at 1500 bucks a month and that would cover you for up to five business profiles. So you have one or five, it's the same price. That's like our minimum. Um, and then engagements there go up into six figures sometimes depending on how big the business is and how many hours really we're supporting them.

Speaker A: So in my head I go, okay, let's now crank it right. So what does rampage mode look like? It looks like we're using your service, everything is right, we're petting the algorithm, things are cool. But then I'm also getting some insight on specifically on this heat map where it's like where do I place my ads potentially? Right. And so it's like what is the steroid level of this Looks like what is your client that is optimizing this the most what does that look like?

Speaker B: Looks like, uh, so on the organic side, they use every feature of business profiles. They don't say no to anything. One of the big ones with restaurants, sometimes I don't want to put my menu on my business profile.

Speaker A: They don't want to.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because it changes or just.

Speaker B: And it's like, okay, so where do you put it, your website, what do you do when it changes? We change it.

Speaker A: Right. It doesn't seem that complicated. Yeah.

Speaker B: And then, then we have to look at data and be like, okay, how many views did your website get? 10,000. How many views did your Google listing get? 100,000. Where's the smarter place to manage your menu? Where it's going to have the most reach, most exposure and most impact.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And the big thing about that one is like, whether you manage your menu or not, there's a menu on your listing from users. Right? Exactly.

Speaker A: Someone's putting it up anyway.

Speaker B: So like it's always going to be wrong no matter what you do. You might as well at least have the most direct influence over it. And so, but in that vein of thinking, like, just use all the features, like there's no good argument to not upload a picture or to respond to a review.

Speaker A: Got it.

Speaker B: There's excuses and a lot of those are valid. Right. Like the GM of your restaurant can't sit there and respond to reviews all day.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You can't do that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: But if you get mostly positive reviews, there are thoughtful and meaningful ways you can automate that without AI.

Speaker A: What's the best thing you've seen? Like review wise? Is it like, thanks so much, here's five bucks or something? I don't know.

Speaker B: Is there really just a, uh, response? Truly, just say hello. Businesses just don't respond. So a basic response is more than adequate and users aren't looking for anything more than just knowing that they've been heard. Even if it's like negative feedback, you know, like, you're not, you're not going to solve it there in the review thread. Right. And they leave a review, you leave a reply and it's over. You don't get to like, you don't go back and forth.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so it's like you too. And you know, if you think about it, really, if you're responding to like negative reviews, you're really writing in the response so that the next person who reads your reviews.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Doesn't. It's, it's not just their word versus yours. They're like, oh, well, at least they're addressing at least they heard they're not ignoring this feedback. And then for positive feedback, it's the easiest to really totally respond to because like they already love you. The only. You can't really do anything wrong at that point. Even if it's just like a.

Speaker A: Uh.

Speaker B: Hey, thanks so much for your review, Diego. Like, glad to have you in and like, can't wait to see you again. It's like, even if you wrote a super thoughtful review about everything you had, if they respond with that, you're not going to like, right. You're not going to be upset. Like, you know, I think for the

Speaker A: sports bar, I'm going to put like, if I can deduce who they're who the team they hate the most is I'm just gonna put like go Yankees or something, you know what I mean? Just to like stoke the fan.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And you could do that with tools like ours, control them. You could look for a trigger keyword and it only responds to reviews with that trigger. And so. Okay, so yeah, uh, and then definitely like Google Ads is like the level up from there in terms of like strategy. 80% of search goes to organic. So if you really want to win big, you have to nail the organic piece. At the end of the day you got to be a good business. Right?

Speaker A: Like yeah, you got to do all the things right.

Speaker B: You're not going to see a three star restaurant rating at the top of searches for restaurants. LA Place is packed. It's just not going to happen for you, you know, like uh, but if you serve good food, you treat your customers right and then you take advantage of all those features and you just, you engage with the channel and you get engagement back. It's like a flywheel.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.

Speaker B: And then what you use Google Ads for, the way I view Google Ads is that you're buying control. Right. So like when you hire an SEO company, you think you're going to have control, but you don't.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Like even when you work with us, I have no final say in like what happens. Yeah, I'd say like 80 to 90% of our campaigns have some kind of meaningful lift where the business feels the impact, you know, the 10 to 20% that don't. It's low competition market. There's not a lot of search volume. Maybe something more obscure. Yeah, you know, I could give some examples of that. But like for hospitality, we've legitimately never had a real fail because there's just so much volume and there's so much action out there. But Google Ads is about control. What aren't you getting organically? So it's like our tool. We can more precisely measure, like, what did you show up for? What didn't you show up for?

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And then you can make a cognitive choice. Do I want to double down?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Or do I want to go for, you know, a new audience that I'm not really getting. A classic one with restaurants is like catering or private events or event venue, because they're. You're really going to be m. Most well known for only a few things.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So within restaurants, you know, food is going to be like, there's a huge volume of searches there. So you can be really well known for brunch and happy hour and lunch and dinner. But then when it's like somebody goes and Google's like, event venue or private event venue, L.A. well, now you're competing with businesses who. That's their primary business. M. And as a restaurant, you're not going to do as well as you would if that was your primary business.

Speaker A: So should you start another listing, you could.

Speaker B: Catering, um, is also another kind of area like that too, where, like, there are dedicated catering shops. And so, like, they're going to beat you on catering.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: And it might be vice versa. The catering people might want the restaurant search and the restaurants want the catering. But. But that's where it's like, it's cheaper basically to buy that presence and use ads to control that more precisely.

Speaker A: That makes sense.

Speaker B: And to fill those gaps than to like, endlessly spend money trying to stuff your website with keywords where it's like, it's just not gonna work anyway.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, yeah. If you look at a Google search result, it's ads, the map, and then your website. So like, SEO is like the third order of investment in the sense that what I define SEO is like you're trying to move your website, your URL up, the search results. And optimizing your website doesn't necessarily move your maps listing up.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: It can, it can add a couple little bonus points, but for the most part, the map is based on distance to the user, relevance. So, like having your menu with, uh, menu items. If I search like hamburger near me, you better have your section of hamburgers in your menu updated recently and accurately. Pictures of hamburgers, reviews that mention your hamburgers. Right. Like, yeah. And then when people Google hamburgers near me and they request directions and they actually go through the door of your business, that signal alone, like the direction request or an action on your listing is worth 100 times more points. This is according to Google's patents that I've read that, like, an action from a user is weighted at like 1.0 out of like a scale of 0.1 to 1. Like, the action is a 1. Uh, the category, like hamburger restaurant matching the search is like, point one. So, like, your listing can be optimized, but if you don't get that engagement and the other guy down the street does. Yeah, he's going to outrank you. So, like, so you have to drive that foot traffic through. So, like, when you launch your business.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Have a huge grand opening party and tell people, like, use Google Maps to request directions immediately. Or send and send out a text and, and give them the link and be like, hey, here's our location. Like, be sure to navigate to us. And like, because even better, that direction request pushed through the door. As long as it's legitimate, you can do that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: There are new spam schemes popping up where people are spoofing those actions, but it actually ruins your listing.

Speaker A: Yeah, I can see that. When it comes to Uber Eats, does Uber Eats introduce anything interesting? Because there's restaurants there. It's a bit of a listing. It's different, different business. But does that change any of the data?

Speaker B: No, not for us. But the, uh, reality is, like, similar to the catering and private events thing, when restaurants, like, I want to boost my takeout, it's really hard to do on Google Maps because most people do gravitate to the marketplaces. Like, I have a Chase Sapphire reserve card, and it comes with a DoorDash premium subscription or whatever they call it. DoorDash, I don't even know what the hell they call it, but I have DoorDash Premium Platinum. Platinum DoorDash, whatever the technical name is. And it's like, when I think about delivery and takeout, I pretty much go right to DoorDash. And so that's a different problem that businesses have to think about. And so if you're really trying to boost that side of your business, then you absolutely need to work within those apps and those marketplaces.

Speaker A: Totally.

Speaker B: Because that's where the audience is for that. Like, when I look at restaurants who offer takeout and I go to their search, uh, impressions and map labs, like, it's like less than 1% of their impressions. And we do all the things we can do to possibly boost that, and it's just. The audience just isn't there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So if you're trying to get people through the door, you know, at some restaurants, like, the term butts in seats. You know, like, Google Maps is definitely like king. You know, it's the top overall channel.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's not your entire business. Sometimes businesses get frustrated because we'll be go, your bookings are up like 50%. Like, well, my business bookings are 50%. It's like. No, no, they're up 50% from Google. Your business is, is more than. Google is a very influential, influential channel.

Speaker A: Huge. Yeah.

Speaker B: But if you're trying to push people through the door, Google Maps, Apple Maps, you know, are the top two for sure. With Google, you know, being the king.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: If you're trying to do takeout and delivery, you can integrate those services to your listing, but you're just not going to get nearly as much traffic for that because most people go directly to those channels.

Speaker A: Let's wrap on this. Where do you want to take this company? Like how big do you want to take it?

Speaker B: Uh, you know, it's a very good question. I actually view myself.

Speaker A: I'm going to acquire you. You know.

Speaker B: Yeah. I'm going to be really honest with you. I actually view myself more as like a zero to one kind of founder guy. So, like we're past the one phase.

Speaker A: Okay. So you're not having fun anymore.

Speaker B: I'm not having as much fun anymore.

Speaker A: You know what's.

Speaker B: Sorry, everybody watching this would matter. Map Labs. But I like the problem solving part. I like the branding part. The creativity phase. Like those first few years, I find less and less enjoyment of like scaling. So like I've brought in a great CEO and so my real vision is like, I like to become more of just like I love the product part of it. Like, I really like thinking about features. Like, I know the problems with these native platforms so intimately. So like for myself, I view myself as like kind of more sliding to the back. Hopefully the chairman. Yeah. But for the business, I mean, it could be as big as we want it to be, but we're bootstrapped. We have no vc.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: You know, so like, maybe that would change if we really wanted to like go to the moon. But yeah, like kind of just slow and steady. But I like for myself personally to like, you know, be less operator more, go back more to the creative side of things and I still get to do that. But that's like if I work 200 hours a month or whatever, it's like 10 hours or 20 hours goes towards that part. So I love it.

Speaker A: Map Labs. Every business friend. It's good.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, the map is, you know, it's not going anywhere. So, like, so the best place to invest any money is in things that aren't going to really just disappear. Right. Uh, you know, that's what. That's part of why I never really got excited about social media marketing. Even though it's super relevant, it's obviously super powerful. It's just like, thinking about it from, like, the business side of running a social media marketing company. It's like, oh, my God.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Post every day, three times a day.

Speaker A: It's a lot. It's also much more, uh, the competition is entirely too fierce.

Speaker B: Yeah. But I do think, like, at, uh, Map Labs, like, what I really want is I want to really, uh, see more product, like, software and coaching stuff.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I like that people are learning how to do this themselves. You know, the traditional model in our space is like, agency does it for you. You're too stupid.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: We can't tell you. It's a secret. Right. And then on the other end, it's like, here's a software and like, and good luck, you know, like. Like that's what our industry is. It's like either you hire an agency and they keep you in the dark, or you buy a tool and you kind of have to figure it out yourself.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so I really want Map Labs to be like that. Just different in that sense of like, we have both of those ends, but in the middle, we work with you directly.

Speaker A: There's like a concierge.

Speaker B: We help you build a strategy. And I'd like us to continue to have, like, actual humans you can talk to and, like, answer your questions about your business directly, work with you about your business's needs and, like, uh, give you a real solution and give you a strategy and just be honest with you. Like, I've turned people away where I'm like, this isn't going to work for you. Like, you know, you're selling Mylar packaging. Like, yeah, you have a Google Maps listing. But, like, I don't think that this is going to work. So, yeah, just like, our mission ultimately is to improve trust and transparency in digital marketing. And so as long as we're continuing to be honest and transparent with our clients, I think we're on the right path. Evan, thank you.

Speaker A: Very informational today. I appreciate it.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker A: Huh?

Speaker B: Thank you for tuning in.

Speaker C: If you enjoyed this episode, share with your friends, your family, or anyone you might think might benefit from the conversation we've had today. And if you haven't already, please take a moment to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform, we'd greatly appreciate it. Your feedback helps us improve and reach more people who can benefit from our discussions. The best way to stay connected with us and get the latest updates on future episodes is through our social media channels. You can find us artupstorefront. We'll be back next Tuesday with another great episode. See you then.