Chef Zachary Engel: So You Want To Run a Non-Traditional Restaurant Culture?

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Speaker B: so youo Want to Run a Restaurant? Created by the team@backofhouse IO, the most trusted resource for restaurant tech.

Speaker A: So today is a special bonus episode recorded live on stage at the Utility show in Chicago. We were honored to be part of the show's programming and record this conversation in front of a live audience. Now, it's worth mentioning that the Utility show is not your average restaurant trade show. Created by the team behind Tillet nyc, the Utility show is smaller and more intimate than many other trade shows, which allows for a really engaged crowd. For our conversation with our guest Chef Zachary Engel, who is the executive chef and co owner of Galit and Cafe Yaya in Chicago, Zach is one of the most respected chefs in the country. Before opening Galit, he served as Chef de Cuisine at Shia in New Orleans, helping that restaurant earn the James Beard Award for Best New Restaurant and he later received the James Beard Rising Star Chef Award as well. And his career has included time at renowned restaurants including Zahav in Philadelphia, Katit in Tel Aviv and the Michelin starred Madrona Manor in California. Today, Zach and his team operate Git, a Michelin starred Middle Eastern restaurant in Chicago's Lincoln park neighborhood alongside Cafe Yaya, a uh, neighborhood cafe inspired by Mediterranean and French flavors. But what makes this conversation especially interesting isn't just the food. Git has become well known for taking a different approach to supporting their employees. Rather than relying solely on the traditional tipping model, the restaurant uses a service charge to help provide meaningful benefits including including healthcare coverage, paid time off, retirement matching and other programs that are still uncommon in much of the restaurant industry. It's a thoughtful and sometimes controversial topic that restaurant operators across North America continue to debate, and Zach shares the philosophy behind why his team chose this approach, how they communicated to guests, and what they've learned along the way. Here's our conversation with chef Zachary Engel.

Speaker C: Uh, thank you, Nick. Thank you everybody. Thank you. Hello, Chicago.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Thanks for coming, everyone. And thanks for joining us, Zach.

Speaker C: Thank you, Zach.

Speaker D: My pleasure.

Speaker B: We are stoked for this conversation. All right, well, so we should. Let's kick it off. We love to start out with a background story. So talk to us about becoming a chef. Was that always on the plan? Was that not part of your plan? Tell us about growing up.

Speaker D: Uh, when I was younger, I was not really looking at going to restaurants. I was like, very academic as a student. Um, and then I, after high school, kind of felt like a little burned out. And I ended up going to Tulane in New Orleans, uh, right after. Thanks, Kelly. Um, right after, ah, a year after Katrina. And so it was a very interesting time to be there. And I started to go out and eat at restaurants and I really fell in love with the hospitality and like the heart and soul of New Orleans restaurants. And then I kind of was, I kind of thought, oh, maybe I'll just like, try and cook. I'd always had to fend for myself as a kid because my, uh, parents aren't very good cooks. Um, my mom will, uh, find out about this and she will give me a hard time.

Speaker C: We're sorry, Mom. We're sorry.

Speaker D: I started to work a part time job at a student organization and then I got a gig, uh, working at Dominica, uh, my first restaurant job for lan Chaya. And that was a very formidable experience for me. I then decided to actually follow through with restaurants. I just fell in love with the culture and the teamwork and the technique and focus. And I saw the success that people could have doing it and doing something they enjoyed. Moved to Philadelphia, worked for Mike Salmanoff at Zaha for a couple years. Spent a little bit of time in Tel Aviv working in a restaurant there. Then I moved out to Sonoma. I worked for a chef, Jesse Mulgren, ah, at a restaurant called Madrona Manor. We had a garden on the property. Uh, it was a 22 course Michelin star tasting M menu restaurant. And um, he had worked for Jeremiah, uh, Tower, who is one of the most important chefs in American restaurants, uh, at Stars in San Francisco. And so I wanted to work for the guy who worked for the guy. And I learned a lot working with Jesse. San Francisco is very expensive. So we decided to leave, uh, and move back to New Orleans where I had some friends. And we, I kind of thought there wasn't anyone doing anything that I wanted to do, which is to cook Middle Eastern Food in sort of a fine dining context.

Speaker B: Wow. I can't believe that. None in New Orleans.

Speaker D: Not at the time.

Speaker B: Not at the time.

Speaker D: Um, and then I moved back, reconnected with Alon, and he was like, hey, I'm opening up this restaurant. I'd like you to be one of the chefs. So it was very, like, kismet. Um, and then Shia was, like, a big restaurant opening, and I ended up here a few years later.

Speaker C: How is it different? Because, ah, New Orleans is such a vibrant city. It must have really kind of caught your. You must have fallen in love with the city and the food culture there. And now here in Chicago. How is it different running a restaurant in these big cities? The difference between New Orleans and Chicago and even Sonoma, for example, like, what is the difference between those two? Is there a difference?

Speaker D: Yes. So Chicago, for those of you that operate here. For me, I have, like, anxiety when city officials come into the restaurant because it feels to me sometimes like we're the target of, uh, like, the bureaucracy here. And, uh, then it's very, like, involved, and there's a lot of oversight, which I think is great. But it's very nerve wracking to have,

Speaker C: like, a little more hands on, a little more not working with you, kind of finding ways to what you're doing wrong, essentially.

Speaker D: Yes. And I have.

Speaker C: But we love the city of Chicago, everybody.

Speaker D: So I love Chicago, but that's like, it's hard to run a restaurant here sometimes because it feels like you're not really getting help from the city that you're working in. I have two very good stories. One is New Orleans related. So, um, one time I had a health inspection in New Orleans, and New, um, Orleans was very short, uh, staffed in the health department, so they were bringing in health inspectors from other cities. And this woman had come from Baton Rouge, and she, like, sat down, started to fill the paperwork, and, like, walked around the restaurant for, like, five minutes. And then she just, like, looks at me and she goes, you have, like, very pretty eyes. And I was like, okay. And she's like, you're. You're such a nice guy. And then she just, like, signed it and then left. And it was like, nothing actually was inspected. It was just, like, being polite. And there's, like, good things for that. Like, I didn't have a heart attack. But the bad thing is that, like, maybe some people need to get checked a little bit on what they're doing.

Speaker C: A little more diligence.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: In some places. Yeah.

Speaker D: Chicago. I've had all these experiences where it seems like you're, like, constantly moving upstream. There's always obstacles thrown in your way. And then I had this very interesting inspection, uh, with a supervisor, uh, like, a couple months ago, and he and I were going over, like, our HACCP plan that we had put in place for Cafe. Yeah. And I was, like, very, very nervous because I was, like, I had someone help us with the plan. But, like, he was asking a lot of questions, and he goes, you need to, like, calm down. I am here to be your. Your ally and your support. I'm not here to, like, come at you. He's like, I've been in the health department for a while, and I know that a lot of the times you guys feel like we're out to get you. And maybe that is part of the culture that we had for a while, but we're trying to change it.

Speaker B: And he didn't say that he was going to look into your eyes?

Speaker D: No, he didn't, um, he compliment your

Speaker C: eyes in any way.

Speaker D: It was a very, like, different experience than I'd had in the seven years of health inspections here. As someone who treated me like a person who was running a business and had, yeah, a lot of shit, a lot of stuff going on.

Speaker C: Often it's, yeah, a city official, someone who's coming in, just buy the book, click, you know, ticking boxes and saying, no, this is wrong. This is wrong. As opposed to someone who's actually been in hospitality and knows how it operates and what's actually happening around in the restaurant and take a moment to step back and say, okay, what are they actually doing? How are they actually accomplishing what they're doing? And is it a violation in any way? And most likely it isn't. So it's good. It's obviously a positive step forward.

Speaker D: There's ignoring how people are operating and letting absolute anarchy looking into that. And then there's, like, punishment that doesn't actually provide a lesson because it's just a consequence without any information. And then there was this, like, moment of pure engagement in which it was like someone was not trying to punish me, they were trying to teach me so they could ensure that I was doing it the right way, which is

Speaker B: what you want when you're opening a restaurant and building something, especially in a new city. So talk to us about what. What made you move back to Chicago then, and leave New Orleans?

Speaker D: Well, I'm not from Chicago. Oh, right.

Speaker B: Sorry.

Speaker D: I moved here, um, in 2018. Uh, my wife and I have been in New Orleans for a while. She's from the east coast and had kind of lived in New Orleans for long enough for her.

Speaker B: And

Speaker D: after winning the beard Award in 2017, I kind of thought I could choose where our next destination was. Uh, and I was looking at a lot of different markets, major cities, not New York, because that place is terrifying to me. It's like too, too much going on, too busy, too busy.

Speaker B: New York is Chicago on steroids.

Speaker D: Love to visit, don't want to live there.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: Um, and I was looking in D.C. louisiana, Chicago, and then the doors kind of kept opening here. Uh, I had reconnected with someone, uh, who had gone to Tulane at the same time as me, and we had mutual friends. He was working for one off hospitality, uh, and we'd done an event together. And I kind of engaged with him a little bit more and met some people who were potential investors. And then one day I called him and I was like, hey, I think I'm gonna move to Chicago. Do you wanna open a restaurant? And that was it. That was pretty much the decision.

Speaker C: Nice. No turning back though. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker D: I definitely asked my wife about that beforehand.

Speaker C: Important conversation. Yeah, yeah. Oh, by the way, I packed the truck. We're leaving today.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Well, you're so creative with some of your ingredient sourcing. And talk to us about kind of the philosophy around Galit because obviously it's an award winning restaurant. A lot of people know about it. I mean, it's, it's absolutely delicious and amazing. Talk to us about the process of opening that and kind of like what, what you wanted to imbue on in the restaurant.

Speaker D: So when we first opened, we were just trying to open a restaurant that would make money. And so, um, I was buying from farms. Uh, one of my chefs at the time was very connected to a lot of the farmers and helped introduce me, which I think is a big thing is to have credibility with these folks. They will then agree to work with you. Um, also paying your bills on time is very important with farmers. Um, their checks always get written first. Uh, and we were just trying to kind of do things that I had been doing before, but kind of the next evolution, but not really take it too far. So I was just trying to give people the lay of the land for what was the foods that I've been cooking for a while and what I was interested in cooking. And then Covid happened. We just started putting the same stuff in takeout boxes. And then, uh, when indoor dining reopened up in Chicago, I took the opportunity with the chefs and the cooks to be like, let's push the envelope a little bit more than we were. And we have this, like, four course menu that we settled into. And from there it's evolved a lot still, um, very focused on buying ingredients from farmers, our protein, all of our produce, grains, et cetera. But we started to stockpile things and grow a larder so that we could have stuff in the off season. And so we'd spend all this money in the summer and then go through product in the winter, and it would change every year. And then we've built up recipes that are consistently used throughout the year that are part of that larder. And we just maybe move it from one recipe to a totally different recipe, but using that same, like ramp vinegar or preserved plums or anything like that. So I got inspired a lot, um, by meals that I'd had at Smith, because John Shields was doing a lot of stuff where he was holding onto ingredients for a long time. Like, I had a sungold tomato sorbet in March, and that pissed me off to no end because I was like, we're six months away from a great sungold tomato minimum, and this guy just served one that, like, it, tastes like it, and I'm getting a glimpse of summer. And I was like, we have to cook like that. So that's been a big direction for us. In addition, I think when you're talking about ingredients, you also need to talk about, like, everything that's being served at the restaurant. And for us, it is wine and our beverage program. So early on, we got Chicago and Andres and I were meeting with wine reps and we were like, we're gonna have Middle Eastern wine on the list. Don't bring us Greek or Italian wine to our tastings. Everyone bought Greek and Italian wine to the tastings. I was like, that's not what I wanted. And we had to push really hard to get someone to.

Speaker C: Good for you.

Speaker D: Pick up stuff for us. And once people realized that we knew what we were talking about and there was great wine in the Middle east that was being made, and we just had to find a way to get it.

Speaker C: So tell us about Middle Eastern wines. What? Is there something that's going to surprise us or be delightful about Middle Eastern wines? And maybe we don't know if you

Speaker D: like wine in any form at all. Whether it's like, very traditional winemaking or, or sort of the new wave of winemaking that's happening, like in California, anything like that. It's all happening there in all sorts of different areas, geographically diverse. Um, there's Also, ah, like an incredible variety of indigenous grapes that people are bringing back. They're finding in random areas that have not been, you know, habitated in a while. So they're like, they're coming up on these grapes that no one's seen in a hundred years. And the winemaking process there's is very, like, focused on terroir, so trying to emphasize where it is that they're growing, whether it's in the Bekaa Valley or in the Golan Heights, or if it's even in like, um, uh, rural Iran. Like, we have a wine that is grapes that are smuggled out of Iran and made in Armenia. There's a lot of things going on, and I think a lot of people just kind of mostly boomers are like, there's no good wine. It's all hot. And it's like, it's not hot there. Like, there's a lot of different climates, so you just get to choose really anything. And there's people that are proud of where they come from and they're trying to express that through the wine that they're making.

Speaker B: When did you really feel like the restaurant, it was really hitting with people and resonating with people. And when did it really take off? Because I know that you won the James Beard Rising Star chef award in 2017, and the restaurant itself has won. You had a Michelin star. You've also won James Beard. Again, I'm just curious. Talk to us about that moment when you said, hey, what we're doing here is working and it's resonating with people.

Speaker D: Honestly, it was pretty early on we opened up the restaurant and there were other restaurants that were doing Middle Eastern type food in Chicago. We had some really great reviews from some critics early on. And that was 2019, when food journalism had a significant impact more than social media did on restaurant business. And we started to see a huge influx of guests. And our first year was pretty bangering, really great.

Speaker B: And you don't hear that a lot from people that have opened a restaurant. That's like the first couple years is when they really struggle.

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, we have a totally different restaurant that we just opened up a little over a year ago. And that's been a very different trajectory. For sure.

Speaker C: Let's talk about that because, yeah, Cafe Yaya, you open it next door to Galit. Um, how is it different? And when did you decide, okay, it's time to open something new? And what are the differences between the experiences of both of those?

Speaker D: I think Galit, we were the New kids on the block. We were like the interesting new concept, uh, that attracts a lot of people. I think people want new and different. Cafe Yacht is like a byproduct of people who are trying to make intelligent business decisions by buying real estate. But also providing opportunity for their team to grow is kind of like what that was. So there's a pastry program and bread program that's run by our pastry chef, uh, who runs both restaurants. Uh, Mary, right there.

Speaker C: Mary, shout out to Mary.

Speaker D: And then the beverage program expanded. We wanted to sell not just Middle Eastern wine, surprisingly. So when we have a restaurant that does other stuff, we need a private event space. Um, we needed, like, to be able to do catering. So we needed all these things to add to what Glee was doing. And so Yaya is a sister restaurant because it's next door. I can be in both kind of at the same time, lead two teams and provide a different experience because Galid is now a special occasion restaurant more than it was before.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker B: What's the hardest thing about opening up to going from one to two restaurants?

Speaker D: Sometimes it feels like when I, when I need to spend time in one of them for whatever reason, the, um, other one is unraveling at a rapid pace. Like when your eyes aren't on it, it feels like the whole thing is like, imploding.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Um, maybe that's, uh, my neuroses, but that's just kind of how it feels sometimes. And, uh, being able to manage my time and putting the energy in with as many people as I can is very difficult to do.

Speaker C: Obviously building teams. You talked about that. So I know you have a view on restaurant work as being a career choice and not just temporary work. Um, so how do you build a team like that where you're in for the long haul, where, when generally this is. Yeah. You have to give up your evenings, weekends, holidays. You work when everybody else is playing. That's just. You have to get people to choose that lifestyle in a way. How do you manage a team to get them to see your vision and be with you for the long term.

Speaker D: When we were like, coming up in restaurants, it felt like there wasn't what people call work, life, balance. And so Andres and I went to business school, A, uh, Tulane. We kind of understood the way corporate business world works and sort of the perks that people who work a 9 to 5 white collar job kind of get. Yeah, trying to implement that. Those benefits, but in tandem, um, with treating the workplace in a professional way. Uh, from interviewing, like, evaluations, um, education, like Training.

Speaker B: You spend a lot of time training people.

Speaker D: We talk, try to.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which a lot of people don't get that they just get thrown in.

Speaker D: We do, we do that. We also, we also. There's, there's education that is not necessarily pertinent to the operations of the restaurant. In that overall education is, is like better for everybody to like learn something else. And um, hot take here.

Speaker C: I take hot take.

Speaker D: Uh, restaurants are not that big of a deal and are not the center of the universe. As much as we all like to think that they are. No one cares actually. Uh, I think we think we're very much the most important thing all the time because it's our entire universe non stop. But in reality We're a two hour block in someone's day for 95% of the population, which is totally fine. Um, if we can get that tour block and crush it, then that's meaningful. But for us, adding educational value in things that aren't restaurant focused is also bettering the staff's their well being and

Speaker C: it can be done to other restaurant owners. Everyone's going to say, I can't afford that. I can't afford a training program to train people. I need people who know what they're doing. I can't afford full benefits. But you're saying no, it's 100% affordable. In fact, when you're giving out like that, you're getting way more in return from these long term employees. You don't have to flip over employees all the time.

Speaker D: Mostly affordable. I think that I just talked you up so. I know, but I think uh, the reality is that it's not always easy. And I think that we try and do something to set an example so that people can try one or two things. Maybe not all of the things, um, but you have to figure out what works for you. And sometimes there are things that when business is down and the world is in a, um, global collapse and we're seeing crazy high pricing and all that, that some of the stuff that you're doing maybe cuts a little bit more into the bottom line than it used to. People are spending less money and going out less because their disposable income level is lower. And so then, you know, those things become more expensive in relation to the pie.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker D: Uh, Andres likes to talk about pies a lot. Not because he doesn't love pies, but because it's a good metaphor for how you look at your like, sales and your costs.

Speaker C: The pie chart. Andres loves a good, He's a Former accountant.

Speaker D: Where is he?

Speaker C: Is it. Yeah, he's there.

Speaker D: He's eating right now.

Speaker C: Currently drawing pie charts right now.

Speaker D: But yeah, so like, as that pie gets smaller, those percentages become more significant to you. And so, um, I don't think that it's like a thing that everyone should strive to be doing all of it, like, figure out what works for you and if you can do it, great. If not, aim for it and then try and build into it. It's not like we started from day one with everything that we're doing now. We got a 401k two years ago.

Speaker B: That's still amazing that you're doing that. I mean, that's a really progressive way to think about it. And as Spencer was saying, to retain employees. So I guess for somebody else looking to implement something like that, where do you think that they should start?

Speaker D: I think that you should start in how you do onboarding in that, like setting the expectations from the moment you have an interview with people. Um, what you're kind of like laying out your rules, telling people like what your process and procedures are, what your, um, evaluations are, like what some of your major policies are. Uh, that kind of stuff I think is really important so that people, before they even start, they either know that they're going to be into it or they're not. Um, and the gratuity model that we're all encountering right now and how that changes is a big part of how you may be able to afford certain things. Um, and your pricing structure is also going to be there. So you have to evaluate your financials first before you take these steps. You have to like, actually build a, uh, functional spreadsheet, uh, and like, look at what your projections might be in order to see if you can fold those costs in. And then I would say start with one. Like start with health insurance. Yeah, that's like, if you can hit that off, everything else is a little bit downhill from there. That's the big one. If you can get that, that's great.

Speaker C: Now, uh, when you're hiring for somebody, you know, and you've got this training in place and you're doing a long onboarding, so it sounds like you're not so much out there. I need people experience. I need people with 10 years experience because I don't have time to train. Are you hiring people with little to no experience and teaching them from ground up?

Speaker D: I think that it's a, I think that it's a range in the, in the, in the kitchen at Galit. I Like, to have a really good mix. Um, we have a tiered structure, so people are brought in and paid at certain rates, depending on how many years of experience they have prior.

Speaker C: Makes sense.

Speaker D: That's, um, I find that to be the most equitable way to determine people's pay when they start.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker D: And then their performance determines, like, down the road. But I think it's great to have someone who is an experienced cook who maybe has management experience and is kind of taking a step back and, like, learning a new food, who is going to be working side by side with someone who has been in fine dining for a year. There's an impact that happens there. There's, like, a connection that works.

Speaker C: So if you're hired for anybody, any of the restaurants that want to hire for little to no experience, what. Just general character attributes. What are things are you looking for beyond the resume that you could say, I know right away that person's going to be a good fit, and they're going to be working hard in the restaurant business.

Speaker D: So one of the things that we do at the restaurant is we do, like, we still do stages, um, and they're very, like, laid back. And the truth is, the structure of the stage in the kitchen at the restaurants is more or less to see if the team likes you. So, like, I will ask the team, what did you think of this person? I'll ask all the chefs, as many cooks as I can, like, talk to and. And get a feel for that.

Speaker B: And so the team culture is a really.

Speaker D: Team M culture is the thing, like. Right. And so if they. If they didn't like being there, it's gonna be evident in the reaction from the team as well.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense. Um, switching gears here, I want to talk a little bit about your partnership and your partner. So I know you come from different backgrounds, and yet you've built this restaurant together around shared hospitality traditions. So how has that partnership shaped the way that you've approached your business and the success of your business?

Speaker D: I think having a shared, uh, vision is very important. And not all of our visions are shared all the time. 100% of the time, I actually think that's.

Speaker B: That's smart, though. You don't want somebody that's just going to agree with you all the time. You want a different perspective, even though it's sometimes hard to hear.

Speaker D: Well, it seems like the only thing we agreed upon is to open a restaurant.

Speaker C: Andres currently has a pie chart of, like, 30% of my visions have been looked at, while 70% of your visions have been. No.

Speaker D: So for us, it's that, uh, we both had. Had these experiences growing up where we ate the same food and it was done at tables with lots of people and, you know, bottles of wine and conversation and sharing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: And that was the. The experience that we both were drawing from. And it was entirely irrelevant of, like, what our personal identities were. Like, it didn't matter. So that's a big part of it, too, is like explaining to people that part of our vision is that we. The identities don't matter. When you're at the table.

Speaker C: That's a. That's a great philosophy. That's a great way to look at it.

Speaker D: People can disagree with that, and that's fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But there's like a humanization that happens when you're sitting at a table and you're sharing food with people. That makes it, um, so much clearer that there's just a lot of noise in the world. And it has nothing to do with, like, human to human interaction. It has so much more to do with, like, kind of the nastiness of the world in general. So, you know, our wine list, I think, is indicative of that too. We have wines that are from the Middle east, that are from all over the Middle east, and they specifically list the country of where the winemaker says they make wine from. It can be disputed territory. It doesn't matter. So it's where that person says that they're making wine, because it's not up to us to determine that. Right. So, like, it doesn't matter where you're from. You're at the table. It's kind of our. That's. That's the basis for everything.

Speaker C: That's. Yeah. Uh, it makes a ton of sense. It's a simple philosophy, seemingly. Um, I'm sure it gets expanded on and discussed and debated all the time, but. Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, thank you so much.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Can we have a round of applause

Speaker C: for Zach Engel, everybody?

Speaker B: Yes. Thank you. It's great for being here.

Speaker C: All right, we're gonna. We're gonna do a selfie with everybody in there. You're gonna be on Instagram. Congratulations.

Speaker A: So you wanna run a restaurant? Is created by Back of House, produced and hosted by Claudia Sarek with Nick Florek as executive producer, marketing by Hilary Young and Ashley Dunn, creative by Manisha Kishanchanchant and live production by Sarah Heemstra. And of course, me, your co host, Spencer Michael. For more information, visit Backoffhouse IO Forward slash podcast.