How to Think Better Under Pressure: Critical Thinking for Sales Success

Speaker A: What is the risk of not thinking and what is the alternative?

Speaker B: Oh, gosh. Well, the risk of not thinking is people are inherently biased. AI is inherently biased, but it can be biased for someone against someone. We don't have to live in that world all the time. And this is why thought diversity is so, so important. Because if everyone's thinking alike, somebody's not thinking.

Speaker A: What is the risk of us overusing AI in these thinking moments?

Speaker B: I suppose one of the big risks is around.

Speaker A: Meet Bethan Wynne, a facilitator, author and speaker. She helps people think clearly, critically, and creatively when it matters most. Today she explores critical thinking, how to

Speaker B: use it under pressure, face uncertainty, and make tough decisions with confidence.

Speaker A: What could they take with them, um, from this conversation that will help them apply or think differently tomorrow?

Speaker B: I think the are probably the most useful thing.

Speaker A: Hello and welcome back to the Soul like you podcast. And today we are in a slightly different environment with a slightly different human sat in front of me. Welcome. Thank you for being here.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

Speaker A: Yeah, me too. And I think, you know, we've been chatting before, we've started recording, but we also caught up at a brunch a couple of weeks, weeks ago. And I think, you know, you gifted me a book and it's been signed, so I'm very, I've got it here, pride of place. But, you know, the topic is critical thinking. And, um, some of the exercises you took us through, just, you know, everything you can relate back to, obviously everything in life, in business, and for me it's always coming back to sales. And I was really excited to get you on today because critical thinking, the way that we think, the way that we, that we put ourselves in a, in a situation, is, um, different for everybody. But there's so many ways to look at it. And, you know, a couple of things I want to dive into is critical thinking. Like, why is that important? Where does it come from? Um, give me your 2 cents on it or maybe $5.

Speaker B: Sure. I suppose the 2 cent version is critical thinking is about how we think, not what we think. So the processes, the metacognition, thinking about your thinking. Um, the $5 version, more complex one, is, uh, where people go, what does it actually mean? And I say it's its skills, its knowledge and its attitudes. So skills like analysis, evaluation, judgment, and, uh, I think everybody's very capable of those skills. But when we're busy, when we're stressed, when someone's saying, make a decision right now, you go, oh, my God. Panic stations kick in. Um, knowledge of things like cognitive biases, which I'm sure we'll touch on today. Logical fallacies. How an argument is structured is really, really helpful. And then attitudes like curiosity, humility, courage. Um, when I was writing the book, I think I realized courage is probably the most important. It's that willingness to say, oh, maybe what I believe is out of date, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I need to apologize to someone, you know, um, because, you know, a lot of just human nature gets mixed in with this kind of concept of, I don't know, perfect, clear, objective thinking that we think we should do, but we're emotional first and logical and rational second.

Speaker A: So kicks in, doesn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah. As all your sales people listening will know. Right.

Speaker A: Like dammit. Cognitive fallacy. What's uh, that.

Speaker B: Okay, so there's logical fallacies which are tricks of argument. So something like, um, something simple like ad populum is feeling pressured to do something or decide something because it feels like everyone else is doing it or it seems popular going with an idea because you respect the person who's put it forward forward as opposed to whether it's a good idea. So if you think about influencer marketing, that really leans into some of those logical fallacies. Um, because, you know, if uh, David Attenborough's recommending you something about nature and you go, oh, right, well he's an expert. But if he's, I don't know, telling you to buy your pants at Marks and Spencer's, you go, oh, hang on a minute. Are you an expert on pants? Yes. So there's a lot of that.

Speaker A: Does that link in to. Um, I've spoken to people, a lot of leaders that especially if they're building a business and I think I also would probably put myself in a little bit in this camp where not many people disagree with me and they don't challenge my thinking as much. And I want I all I'm like, please challenge me, please tell me I'm wrong. And I think a lot of the time in that hierarchical position, m. It's not, it's not seen. And I've got a friend who runs a very successful business in the UK and she's got a team all, you know, she's got 30, 40 employees and she's one of the largest membership providers, um, in the small business world and done incredible job. But, but she, we've had so many conversations where she just said people just don't challenge me. And she would say something to me about what she was doing. And I'm like, why are you doing that? Because I've got, you know, she's my friend, but also I'm interested, you know, tell me why she goes, I don't know, and then gives me the insight. So I find that quite interesting that there's those two elements of somebody because the peer of everybody else is doing it. Do I really want to raise my hand above and from the other side? Is that if I respect you? Well, mate, you probably know more than me, so maybe I won't say. That's really interesting.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I suppose in an environment like that, you've got probably a bit of group think going on. So that desire to fit in, not rock the boat. There's probably some personality stuff. You know, if someone's, um, kind of a harmony seeker, they're not going to be sort of questioning because people don't want to be seen as difficult. There's hierarchy there. If your friend is the boss, then it takes a lot of courage to challenge the boss on something. And there might even be. And this is more. When I used to work in international education, um, cultural things. So if someone's from a culture where you are told you don't question your parents, your teacher, the government, um, and it's called a high power distance. So some people are, ah, especially uncomfortable. I don't love it. And the UK is kind of, you know, there's a reasonable amount of respect for hierarchy. But I remember being in a session and there was a young lady from, uh, Malaysian family, grown up in Australia, but with a Malaysian mum and dad. Malaysia has a very high power distance in these, um, Hofstede models of culture. And she said to me in the toilets after this session, it was all about, you know, how to speak truth to power at work and how to respectfully challenge your boss. And she's like, I feel physically sick at the idea of even gently pushing back, you know, on the smallest of things. Yes. So, yeah, there's lots of sort of different human nature, things overlapping. Um, but. And it's challenging because as a leader, you might say, hey, I would really like some feedback on this. Even saying that can be really, like, doesn't work. People go, oh, okay, no problem.

Speaker A: All looks great. All looks great. Uh, well, I think if we put it back into the, into the realm of when we think about salespeople, I would say majority, I'm going to put, sorry, salespeople, I'm going to put you all in a bucket. But you're all pretty open, like you're Happy to say, no, I'm not doing that. Or this doesn't work. I've done it before and it doesn't work. And so. But I think the courage bit is.

Speaker B: Is.

Speaker A: Is. And we probably. I mean, courage and confidence, is that the same thing?

Speaker B: Oh, there's probably an overlap there. Uh, that's a really good question. It's funny, I was just listening to Brene Brown. I feel like she would probably have a really succinct way of explaining this. Yeah.

Speaker A: Maybe we could ask ChatGPT after. But as Brene Brown, what would you say the difference is?

Speaker B: Courage means doing something that's kind of outside of your comfort zone. So for someone who's in a different line of work, it would be incredibly courageous for them to get up on stage and talk in front of 300 people. My, um, line of work, you go, oh, well, I do that fairly regularly. And if I know the audience and I'm comfortable about the topic, it's not that scary. Um, but once you have done something that requires courage, you know, because five years ago it would have been quite scary for me and it would require a lot of courage. But once you've done it, it builds up your confidence. Um, so perhaps that's how they link in. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think. I mean, if I think of, like you said, courage is the. If, uh, I put it in a sense, like the courage is the courage to do something. So in the courage to pick up the phone.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The confidence for me then would come in delivering the message that will allow you to have a strong conversation. So maybe there's a m. Whether that's explaining what I think the difference is, but I think the. The courage and the confidence, because salespeople require the courage to pick up the phone or to go into the meeting or to attempt the thing, and then the confidence is being able to actually execute, I guess, by feeling confident or by feeling better about what it is that you're about to do. And so when we think about courage and then the connection to. Does courage connect to critical thinking? Is that.

Speaker B: Oh, definitely.

Speaker A: What would you say that is?

Speaker B: I suppose. Well, critical thinking we often think of as applying to external information. So a lot of people like, oh, young people today need to improve their critical thinking because there's so much fake news and AI created content and all that kind of stuff. Um, and that's true, but actually you can apply internally as well. So if you take a very simple test of argument, you say, is it true? Is it logical? Is it Relevant. Um, I might tell myself if I was going to pick up the phone, I might be saying stuff like, oh, I don't want to cold call this person because they're going to hang up on me and they're going to think less of me and it's going to be scary. And I would have all these stories and beliefs in my head. So to be able to sit down and say, well, is that true? Is it a big deal? Am I worrying about this, um, creating what's called a slippery slope going, oh, they're going to hang up straight away and then they're going to call 10 people and be like, you'll never guess who rang me. Do you know what I mean? We create these crazy stories in our head. So the ability to take out from your brain or from whatever you're reading or whatever it is and sort of shine a light on it and say, is that true? Is it relevant to my current situation? Is it actually a logical argument for what I'm trying to think about? Um, can be incredibly helpful to kind of take the air out of it and the power out of something that you might be getting really hung up on. Um, so, yeah, you can apply it to pretty much everything. And it can be incredibly helpful to sort of talk yourself down or talk someone else down.

Speaker A: Or in.

Speaker B: Yeah. Or in. Yeah, yeah. And the courage to sort of get people to question what they think and believe as well. Because, you know, often critical thinking comes up when you really disagree with something someone else has said. And our, ah, human nature is to want to be saying you're wrong and here's why, and here's tons of evidence and research and read this and change your mind. You know, I'm right, you're wrong, and the reality is we're all a little bit right and a little bit wrong about everything. Um, but if you can encourage the other person a bit, like with your friend, right, you go, um, oh, that's interesting. What's brought you to that conclusion? Oh, I'm really curious about why you think that. What's the evidence or what's made you believe that. And when we start to unpick our beliefs, quite crazy sometimes, how tiny that initial bit of information we might have had is that might not even be true. And then we kind of confirmation bias kicks in and we kind of create this snowball of things that we perceive to be correct around it and then it's much harder to unravel. Right. It's, uh, very difficult to sort of unpick that. So if anyone's listening. I'm kind of doing some weird. Lots of hands. I'm sorry. Yeah. Ah. But, you know, like, trying to untie a really complicated knot. You know, creating a knot's easy, but unpicking it is really hard work.

Speaker A: Is that a little bit then, like, if you think. If I think now of, like, political landscapes or religious landscapes or, you know, a thought around, like, you know, is AI gonna take over the world? And is it not, you know, really these really combative arguments in those examples is that. And I've witnessed it where I've seen somebody kind of know, a glimmer, like, know a little. A little breadcrumb of information, but because they can feel the fuel behind, they can own that comment and then keep going. But because they're so far in, they then can't reel their way back out again. But then, like you say, the alternative is to then say, okay, well, you know, that's really interesting why somebody said to me about that thinking process, and they said, strong opinions loosely held. Have you heard of that before?

Speaker B: I've heard that, yeah.

Speaker A: It was the first time I heard it. And I was like, strong opinions loosely held. And his example was saying that you can think about something and believe something, like, wholeheartedly, but be okay that you don't agree with it, or be okay that somebody else disagrees. And listen to the opposing, you know, argument. If we think about all, you know, the war and the things that are going on, you could say it's a great thing. You could say it's a bad thing. And I can listen to both sides and go, that's your opinion, and that's. You probably have more information than I do at this moment. So interesting. Thanks for giving me the context. It's done from that perspective, but not everybody can do that.

Speaker B: No, it's tough.

Speaker A: What does that. What is there something in our makeup that makes us okay to do that or not okay to do that?

Speaker B: Um, I think you can learn to get better at being open to it. And, um, I think it was Adam Grant speaking with Daniel Kahneman. So Daniel Kahneman's kind of bit of the sort of godfather of a lot of this stuff. He got a Nobel Prize for some of his research on System one and System two thinking, which is like your automatic thinking and your more logical, rational thinking. Just putting it very quickly. And Adam Grant was reporting this conversation where Daniel Kahneman was like, oh, this is exciting. When someone was pointing out where he was wrong, because he's like, as a scientist, I love finding out New information, updating my ideas. I think it's in his book Think Again. Adam Grant outlines these ideas around, um, you know, a preacher, uh, and a lawyer kind of Persona. And if we take those stances, we're like, you know, pushing our ideas on the other party to be like, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. And if somebody sees their belief as part of their identity, um, so you mentioned like political beliefs or, um, religious beliefs or even, you know, if you're really avid supporter of your football club, for example, I think you have my brother in law, Kev, you know, I'm never going to persuade him not to support Manchester United, you know, so I thought you might sort of resonate with that one. But, um, if a belief is part of your identity, it's not as easy to let go of. You know, you're sort of pulling out the foundations of how someone sees themselves in the world and what kind of hats they hang, their whole life and personality and where they've put their time, energy and attention their whole lives. For you to come at them and go, oh, I think you're wrong. They're not going to go, oh, wonderful. Thanks for enlightening me. Yeah. So it's much more comfortable to stick in your echo chamber, whether that's in person or online. And I think we're all guilty of just sticking with people we feel comfortable with. And typically the people we feel comfortable with are the people who appear to be like us in different ways. Um, yeah, and it's not a bad thing, but I think people forget that. So when it comes to something like immigration, for example, if I was to move to a country where I don't speak the language, perhaps my religion is different. I don't know anyone. Like when I moved here even, I immediately was like, does anybody know anyone in Perth? And then it was, you know, somebody's cousin twice removed, a girl that was a year, a couple of years above me in primary school. You know, all these random connections, but I was clinging to them. I wasn't necessarily going out looking for people who are very different from me because you want to feel safe and comfortable. Um, as, you know, a British person moving to Australia, I'm given a lot of grace in that. Whereas if it's someone from, I don't know, Brazil, um, or Somalia, you'll go, oh, look, oh, they're moving into the area where all the other people from that country live. And you're like, well, yeah, because that's what humans do. Um, and it's not trying to threaten anyone. It's not to be scary in any way. And yet the media, different parts of media, can really, you know, demonize that and kind of weaponize that against certain groups. And you're like, gosh, this is crazy.

Speaker A: So interesting you just said that because I think in Australia there's a big, you know, nowhere else would I be in a restaurant, somebody serving me as British. And I'm like, where are you from? You know, that's just it. But it just because it's that connection to home or connection to the other thing. And I think, interesting. What's the, you know, the connection between then us wanting to be around similar people and versus when we get out of the box? Because I'm an out of the box gal. Like, I like to go. And Lana Hill takes the mick out of me because I go to, um, networking events on my own. I think we may have had this conversation a couple of years ago, but I go into, I'm like, I don't want to go with anybody. I just want to go on my own because then I can go meet new people. Otherwise I stand next to you, chat to you, and then I go, I don't go anywhere. So whereas if I go with other people because they're a bit nervous, I'm

Speaker B: like, you can come.

Speaker A: But I'm off. Like, I'm gonna, I'll set you up, I'll introduce you to a few people and then I gotta go find some new people, um, to chat to. But I think, I mean, that's my personality. I would say I've probably like that since I've about three. So I think my mum would agree with that. Um, but that said, and that's natural to me, but also when I look at my circle and I think of, you know, somebody that said many years ago, I can't remember who it was that talked about, you know, you are the, the output of the. Or you are the five people you hang around with. There's a better, more articulate way of saying that.

Speaker B: I'm sure everyone kind of knows that.

Speaker A: Kind of average within that circle. I look at it and I remember I worked for somebody and I looked around, I thought, gosh, I spent so many time with all these people I work with and I don't know if I agree with the values of the people that I work with. And so that was a really eye opening moment for me to be like, okay, well if I spend five days a week with these people, is that rubbing off on me in a way? That I'm maybe not aware of yet. And I think, you know, now looking externally, many, many, many years on now, it's so interesting to look at that from the outside. And I think it's something I always look at and, you know, rightly or wrongly, then go, okay, well, maybe I need to distance here or how. But also coming back to how do those people make you feel as well? And I think that that lands in there as well. Yeah. Gosh. So interesting. I've covered so many topics.

Speaker B: Well, when you're talking about the networking, I think for you, you seem to have a clear. I love the question, like, what's it for? So a lot of people go networking to almost tick a box because they feel like they should go and go. Well, the point of going, uh, to a networking event for most people is to broaden your network. But if you're just going to go and hang out with your friend, then go somewhere else, you know, go for wine. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I get it. Sometimes you go somewhere, you see someone I've seen for a while, you're like, oh, my gosh. Yay. Let's chat. Um, but if you're going to try and meet new people, then, you know, that's. That's what you're there for and to kind of stay clinging. Um, but I get it's challenging. It's not something that, um. You know, before starting my business, I didn't know what a networking event was. You know, I thought it was all quite scary or, um. Uh, Megan McNeil told me off many moons ago. She said, you're socializing. And I was like, oh, I don't know what the difference is. And to be fair, it's, you know, always worked okay.

Speaker A: You know, it's a blend of the two.

Speaker B: Ah, yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, you don't want to be that person who, uh. We've all had it. Someone rocks up, shakes your hand and puts a business card in it immediately and says what? They do, and you just go, oh, m. It's the equivalent of those LinkedIn messages where someone just slides into your DMs trying to sell you something, and they're getting more and more sophisticated. You know, I've had two just yesterday going, oh, I've looked at your website and I saw you do this, this and this. And I'm like, stop creeping.

Speaker A: It's more personalized, but please stop.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, you know, it's that whole. And you just see it coming and you're like, oh, so there's good and Bad ways to go about these things and people's tolerance will be different for it as well. So. Yeah, but yeah, good on you, you know, what's it for? It's for meeting new people and um, not necessarily because they're a sales prospect or anything, but just to broaden your horizon.

Speaker A: Isn't this interesting point you mentioned about socializing versus network? I would say you socialize first as part of that networking journey, but then the opportunity comes out of that socialization because if we meet, we don't know what our meeting is going to be

Speaker B: about and I have no idea who

Speaker A: you are and what you do and where this may take us. We may just connect. I know your name, you know my name and how interesting about what you do and oh, you've written a book, you know, like, oh cool, okay, tell me more about that. You never know where that will lead or land.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Years, you know, days, weeks, months, years to come. And so if you go into every interaction with a, with a sales goal, it's never really going to work. So. So yeah, let's get back on the topic of salespeople and critical thinking for a moment. So in the sales process there's a lot of moving parts and often it's very high pressure for the salesperson and the sales leader because everyone's got a world, we're all striving for a number or goal, but we're in the moment with our client. And there was, you know, in the book, but also in some of the exercises that I've seen you do, there's this moment where you look at that kind of taking a step back to assess and have a moment to think. What is the risk of not thinking and what is the alternative in that example?

Speaker B: Oh gosh. Well, the risk of not thinking is wasting tons of time, money, effort. You know, there's no point moving quickly if you're going in the wrong direction. So you need to have those check ins to go. Is this still what we're trying to achieve? Is this still a good client to chase? Is this the best way to go about it? Um, I suppose it's a slightly different angle on it, but one of my first jobs out of uni was working for Oxfam and we had to lobby, uh, the Welsh government. This was many, many years ago and I was with the campaigns team. So I was like, right, we'll get 100 people to go visit their MP. And then we had a lobbyist in the office and he's like, no, no, no, don't waste Your time with that. I'm just gonna get so and so who's friends with this MP's wife, and they play tennis together. I'll get her to talk to her, and then she'll influence her husband, and that's how we'll get it in front. And you just go, oh, well, that's easier. That's a lot easier. You know, rather than, you know, six months worth of work and coaching 100 people to do this thing. And so, you know, there's how you think something should be done, and there's the other options. Um, there's a great, uh. Well, it's a crap acronym, but a great idea. Wiziarty. What you see is all there is. And if you picture kind of a big circle of all the possibilities that are out there, and then there's a tiny circle in the bottom, which is the ideas that you know about. And within that circle is the thing that you will choose, because that's what you know about. Whereas the actual best approach might be something completely different. And this is why thought diversity is. Is so, so important, because if everyone's thinking alike, somebody's not thinking. So having that, um, different experiences, different ways of approaching it. And this is a way that AI can be quite helpful sometimes. If you go, right, this is what I'm trying to achieve. Give me 10 different ways that I could achieve this outcome. Um, and then you get to pick according to your values, your budget, your time, you know, what you think is the best way to get there. Uh, because there will be. I'm always excited about this. But, you know, when someone says, oh, how could I do this? I'm like, oh, let's come up with 50 different ways.

Speaker A: I can imagine that for you. Whiteboard different.

Speaker B: Oh, totally.

Speaker A: I can see it now.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You mentioned there about bringing AI into this piece. Now, I was going to ask, what has AI done to disrupt that, uh, negatively, you know, on that other split side? Because M. We all talk about and there's, you know, this is not an AI bashing. I would like to say, AI, I love you.

Speaker B: So, you know, this is definitely when the robot overlords.

Speaker A: When you're listening. I love you.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Thanks for your hard work. But when we think then about that think, the critical thinking is that, you know, and I know you've talked about it before, is that the thought process that. Are we becoming too reliant, um, on AI to reduce the way that we think and the way that our younger generations are thinking? Because we've always been in A classroom and I'm gonna show my age now. But we've been in a library and you go to the library and I remember, I can see picture I go there to get the book about spiders. Never knew I'd be living in Australia. And you're in those spiders and you're writing out and you're doing it for your biology and we're there and we're having to and asking people what do you know about spiders? And tell me about this. Whereas then Google came and then the next and the next and now I don't even have to leave my chair, I can just quick say name seven different spiders and I'm in. So you know, we can have a full blown conversation, but it only knows what it knows. And so what's your thought around that? If we just take away the positive for a moment and say what is the risk of us overusing AI in these thinking moments?

Speaker B: Mhm. I suppose one of the big risks is around accountability and responsibility. So you know, I'm sure you've seen lots of news articles as have I, someone's going to court or something bad has happened because people say, well, AI made that decision or AI made me do it. You still have responsibility for the decisions at the end of the day. Um, and there's only so many buffers that you can build in and people are inherently biased. So AI is inherently biased, but it can be biased for someone against someone. It's really quite fascinating what the, you know, the data will tell you any story you want if you torture it enough, you know, so you can um, paint the picture in lots of different ways. Um, lots of people say to me, oh my God, AI is going to make us all stupid. And I say, well it's, it's up to us. We have to reference Brene Brown again actually. Ah, cognitive sovereignty she referred to it as. And I was like, ah, that's a nice way of put it. Like we have agency, we have control over where we spend our time, where we give our attention. Um, so you know, while what happens on our phones is clearly, you know, very important and has a lot of influence over us, we don't have to live in that world all the time. And while you might look at Facebook comments or something and go, oh wow, people are horrible. You go, well every conversation I have in person with a real human being is really interesting and nuanced and they're very fair minded. And you go, where's, you know, where's that person online? Um, and often we're not you know, we don't waste our time in the comments getting in arguments. Well, occasionally someone on the Internet is wrong. Um, so, um, I think the conversation that we need to be having with not just young people, all people, is about the productive struggle that, that we need to have to really have engaged with the task or with information. So like you said back in the day, you'd physically go to a library, you'd get the book out, you would be writing out your notes and then maybe writing it again, neat and cutting out and sticking it down or whatever. And the same as you go higher through university, an essay, um, is not just about meeting a word count. It's about explaining your thinking and justifying an argument or a point of view. And if you haven't gone through that process, you haven't really understood. And I think, um, you know, as a former teacher, I'm kind of glad I'm not currently in the classroom because there's this big upheaval that's inevitable. We've had standardized tests for many, many years now. More coming every year, it seems. You know, my daughter's year three and had her first standardized test this year. And you go, oh, my God, you're eight. This is insane. And they say, oh, it's to test the teacher and the school. It's not about the student. Kids are very aware of, did I get a good grade or not? No matter what we say. Um, and we're kind of teaching kids to find the answer that we're looking for rather than engage with the learning and figuring out for themselves and maybe come up with something new. So that's been happening for a while, you know. Um, so Ken Robinson's TED Talk. Are our Schools Killing Creativity? Something like that. It's one of the most watched TED Talks of all time. And it's quite, you know, it's one of the first big TED Talks. And, um, it's just as popular now as it was when it came out. Like, I think it was 20 years ago or something. Um, and yet we still have lots of standardized tests, lots of standardized teaching, because the pressure is on. The students want a good grade. Parents want their kids to get a good grade. The schools need to get good grades to look good on all these league tables. So they attract good students. And so the cycle continues. And I know a lot of people who, you know, for me there was no question of will you go to university or will you not? I was like, oh, well, I'm quite smart at school, so I'm going to university. And I'm going to get a degree. And now my son's 11 and he's, you know, he's very bright and he's like, am I going to go to university? And we're like, I don't know. And that's really shifted just in the last five years. And I'm sure anyone listening, you know, if you've got kids in that kind of age bracket, it's worth looking at, what are the alternatives? Not just going with, um, you know, another logical fallacy, appeal to tradition. Right. Just because, I don't know, the last three generations have gone to university, does that mean that you should. Yeah. Um. And should you continue to do, you know, those traditional subjects? Um, but ironically, you know, all these Silicon Valley giants, they're like, go study philosophy, history. Um, look at the Greeks and the Stoics and all this kind of stuff. Um, you know, you'll pick up coding anyway and, uh, AI will be able to do a lot of stuff. But it's actually those kind of, um, foundations of wisdom that a lot of them will advocate for.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker A: That is really interesting. I mean, I didn't go to university and that was a shock. My poor parents.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, good on you, though. Right. That required some critical thinking. I'm sure there was some good reasoning behind it.

Speaker A: It not write it. I want to do it, not write it. And I think that is. There's a lot of the, you know, the thinking process. Um, you're giving these examples, and I think about that one of the things a bit outside of sales, but salespeople will get this because it's about money and it's about vision boards and crazy, you know, what's the list? And if I think about every, you know, every salesperson, you know, would have. And I'm saying this is back again, probably more so back a few generations or a generation or so that it would be, you drive the BMW, you drive the Porsche, you drive the Mercedes, you holiday in the Bahamas, you have a house and a certain postcode, and tick, you've made it. That's it. And then your kids come along and they're wearing night trainers. Tick, you made it. It's this next thing. And then I remember in the uk, there's a certain area where you go and you want a holiday home there, and you go to Marbella for the summer and you would do all this tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And I think then it's. That's not changed. That's still. And although it's definitely less. And I think People are now making better choices. But I had a conversation with somebody about this who's also in sales, and I said to her, I said, the thing I found over the years is I've questioned everything, but I am a questioner. I'm a, uh, I mean, it's sales, which is the question. But I think for me, I've always questioned, like, what is it? What does success allow me to do or achieve? Not necessarily tick. Have I got the thing? Am I wearing the wristband that says I've made it? But. But society still wants you to show them that you've made it. Which then comes back to that thinking moment of, am I doing this for the view or am I doing this because it makes me happy? And I think that comes whether it's your kid going to university or whether that's making the decision to stand up or not stand up. Is it what you want to stand for and what you want to be known for? Is that right?

Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Look, and I love what you're saying there about if you were to unpack, oh, why do I want to be seen to be, I don't know, going on holiday in Marbella or having a holiday home here or whatever. And that's all about that kind of external approval. And a lot of it is fabricated. Like if somebody really cares about you, they don't care where you go on holiday, do they?

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Um, and when you're making that list, in my head I was just going, that sounds like a lot of debt. And my husband and I talk often about this kind of, uh, ball and chain of debt that, that people unquestioningly find themselves falling into. Um, you know, if we take sort of, if you're middle aged, kind of middle class in Australia, then you will have a big house, you will have a bit of a yard, you will maybe have kids, maybe not. But, you know, you'll have a dog or two. You love your dogs.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you will, you know, go down south every couple of months. Maybe you've got a holiday home down there and you know, you just kind of go, wow, like, and behind all that, the bit you don't see or that people don't advertise is how they've acquired all those things. And sure, some people have made their own money and they've paid it all off, but a lot of it is debt based. Um, so to push back and say, well, maybe I don't want that, um, I realized, uh, just earlier this week I thought, I'll just go and have a Look, in Xero, I actually made less money this year than I did last year. Um, and I was like, oh, that's cool, only a little bit less. Um, but what I have done this year was have two week holiday with my mum. I had a holiday with the family to Europe. And you know, seeing family back there, um, I wrote a book which will be one of those things that, you know, future me will always look back on this year and go, oh, did

Speaker A: that 25 killed at a marathon.

Speaker B: You know, I did heaps of stuff that was like kind of on the list that were on my list of things that I wanted to do. I mean, you could say, you know, it was the book about external approval and all that. But I love a goal, I love progress. And I believe humans are happiest when we're making progress. So, you know, if it's something you want and you have to kind of challenge yourself to work towards it, go for your life, right? Even if it's something that in my mind might be ridiculous, like, I don't know, world jigsaw champion or something, but if it makes you happy and it's develops a skill you want to lean into, then go for it. I'm just excited for anyone who's chosen something that pushes them, that they enjoy, that they, you know, that's often social. You know, they want to kind of move forward with in life. But show me your watch or your car, I'm like, meh m. Whatever, I don't care.

Speaker A: Yeah, but I think it's that challenging of the perception and is it you or is it society? And uh, I think you could do that in anything. It doesn't have to be materialistic. Um, but it's challenging. Like, is this what you think or is it what you think you should think?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Is it what you, you know, is it what you want to be doing, what you think works, or is it because you've been told this is what you've got to do? And I think that at every level, whether it's sales or business or employee or parenthood or friendship, I think there's so much that that ties into. I want to talk about, I want you to talk about bias. I'm not talking about bias. I want you to talk about bias. So we mentioned before about. And um, you know, obviously in. When we're working with people or when we're making decisions around what we're gonna, what we're gonna position, there's a lot of bias that we already have. We already have bias. Do we pick it up along the way. Can we change that bias?

Speaker B: We all have biases. Um, they're not necessarily a bad thing. They're often a protective behavior. And, you know, this goes back to caveman days sometimes. You know, like, where it originally comes from. Um, and a lot of it is about just making life a bit easier for ourselves. So they're like mental shortcuts, if you like, because you can't. It's funny. People go, oh, you're a good critical thinker. And I'm like, I can be. It's a skill. But I can also be terrible because I'm human. And we all need to have our own shortcuts. Um, but if we dig into, you know, what. What they are, they're kind of, again, like things that go on in your brain that are often unconscious. You can spot them in other people, um, easier than in yourself. And they're really handy to know as a salesperson. So something like, um, anchoring bias. So if I tell you I don't know, I'm going to sell you this pen that I have in front of me. It was $500 new. She says it's, uh, Kennedy from the breakfast. It's one of Carla's lovely pens. Definitely was worth $500. Um, but I'm gonna sell it to you for 10. Actually. That's too much of a discount, isn't it? I'm gonna let you have it for 250. You might suddenly go, oh, wow. Because I've anchored the value of this as much higher than what I'm gonna let you have it for. So you think you're getting a bargain. Clearly, the pen was not the best example. But, you know, anything in the sales, you go, oh, yeah, that must have been worth it. If it's too much of a discount, you don't believe the first figure. You kind of undo your own good work. Um, so that's anchoring bias, obviously. Uh, sunk cost and status quo bias kind of come hand in hand. So people kind of finding it much easier to stay with what they know. Gosh. Um, Vodafone was. I've been with Vodafone since we moved to Australia, right? It's 15 years.

Speaker A: Every person that comes from the UK or similar goes to Vodafone. Because we know it.

Speaker B: We know it, right? So there's a bit of. Yes, yes, exactly that familiarity. And it takes a lot. Sometimes, even if I have a little cartoon and someone's digging with a teaspoon, and someone else comes along and they're like, I've got a shovel. Would you like the shovel? And they're like, no, no, I'm fine. I'm making progress. So there's certain things in life where we just kind of let it run and keep going, and unless there's a major issue, we won't change anything. Um, so often it takes a certain level of. And I'm going to say pain, but with, like, inverted brackets, like, there needs to be some kind of pain or discomfort which will force us to change, you know, halo effect. Great for salespeople. Halo effect is because someone observes one positive quality in a person, they will assume you have many more. So if you are pleasant and smiley and, um, make great eye contact, then they will go, oh, well, they must be really smart. They must really know about whatever it is they're selling. They must be dependable. You know, we. We make all these stories, but there's a lot to be said for, you know, kind of that first impression that you make on someone. I'm sure lots of people are aware of that already, but like to know more about it.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I think that. But, you know, you were saying before around, like, the biases that come within that and the processes around it. And I don't know. I'll give you this example, and you can tell me about the. What we. What we pull out from it. But there was. We had. I remember I had a client, I tell a story quite a bit where had a client that was, um, that wanted to buy the technology. They bought from me every time. But what I realized in the first go was that they got the quote, and then they came back and asked me for a discount. And I was like, that's the best price. And he was like, well, I need. I need to get it to this, otherwise I can't sign off on it. So I was like, did the whole, you know, call, if you sign off today, I'll get you to this, et cetera, et cetera. So then he would do it, and then he did it next time again. And what I realized was that he just wants to win, so he just wanted the discount. So all I did as a true salesperson was I put my prices up by 10, 20% and I delivered the quote. He, uh, then said, can I do. Can I get a better price? Go on. Then I'll add the 10% off. And away it went. And so I learned the process of what he. I understood what he wanted, and then I adhered to the rules. But I meant that we both won in brackets because he felt like he was getting a discount. I was still adhering to the price point that I needed to hit to be able to deliver the solution. Everybody won.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Is that bias?

Speaker B: Yeah. Look, there's a few things going on there, isn't there? That's an interesting one. I suppose he wanted to be right, you know, and he wanted to, like you say, he wanted to win in his mind. And winning for him was about getting a discount. So I'd say for that person, there's clearly something in his, uh, experience of life or perhaps childhood or whatever. Like, a lot of this stems from how we were brought up, um, where he believes that, ah, if he's given, uh, whatever the first price is as a jumping off point, you know, and, you know, if you're going around markets overseas in certain countries, you kind of expect that. And sometimes it surprises us if it comes up in a different context. Right? Oh, hang on a minute. No, that's not what we do culturally. And I say culturally, it could be like, you know, country culture, but also kind of that. That kind of work culture or whatever it might be, and that. The culture of that relationship. Um, and there's a great story. It's one of those, uh, graduation speeches. There's two fish swimming along, and a fish is coming the other way. And he's like, hey, boys, how's the water? And these two look at each other and they go, what's water? Like, they don't realize that they're in this environment because it's just what's all around them and always has been. Um, so it's. When you take yourself out of that environment, you go, oh, that's weird. Like, or. Huh, that's how we used to do things, you know? So for this person that you were dealing with, I'm going, oh, well, he clearly, in his mind, that's completely normal and expected, and he needed that, um, in order to proceed with it. But, yeah, how interesting. So, yeah, the anchoring, that first price you've given him. Yeah, I think that was very smart of you to go win, win here, I'll just up mine a bit. Um, and a lot of people go through life just wanting to win, wanting to be right. And I love. There's a bluey episode where the girls have fallen out, and I forget what it is about whether or not Granny can floss or something silly. But, you know, they're arguing and then the mum says, do you want to be right or do you want to play with your sister? And she's like, oh, I want to Play with my sister, actually. She's like, well, you have to let it go. So you've got to pick your battles. Um, and the same with critical thinking, right? You can't think critically about everything all day. You just wouldn't get out of bed. You'd be like, oh, gosh, I need to know how much oxygen is in the room. And what if I put my feet on the floor? Can I assume that the floor is steady? It was yesterday, it might not be today. You just, you would drive yourself mad having to test everything constantly.

Speaker A: So exhausted before I even got out of the bedroom.

Speaker B: You know, coming into this room, I'm gonna assume that I can sit in this thing that looks like a chair. I'm gonna assume that this thing that looks like a mic is what I should be speaking into. Like, we have to make assumptions to get through life. Um, but if you're making an important decision, it's worth questioning those assumptions and just going, is that actually true? How do I know? Um, because we can. Well, if we go back to, like the sales call example, you could assume all sorts of things are going to happen and talk yourself out of it very easily. So we have to kind of have this useful, uh, delusion sometimes to just get stuff done.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, very interesting. And I think if there's. What, like when we, you know, if we think about what we've covered today around what is critical thinking, then how do we apply that in our day to day? And then looking at all the other topics we've covered, what do you think is the. Is the one thing that most people. We can say people have to be sales, but most people are missing, or what could they take with them from this conversation that will help them apply or think differently tomorrow?

Speaker B: I think the pauses are, uh, probably the most useful thing. So if someone is feeling pressured to make a decision, just saying, hey, I need to, I need to sleep on this. It's an important decision. Pushing back a lot of the pressure we feel around decision making and sales and everything is self created. We, um, say, oh my gosh, I need to do it. And I'm sure if you said to someone like, oh, hey, can I just have 10 minutes to go for a walk or can I come back to you tomorrow? It's fine. Not always, but often. Um, and then in the day, if you're feeling like you're busy just checking, am I actually being productive? And I think often all it requires is to step away from your screens. Whichever screens are in front of you, put them down or go for a walk. Um, back in the day, you go for a ciggy break, whatever. So these days it's more like go for coffee or, um, a fridge cigarette, get a Diet Coke. Like that kind of framing, um, or just go for a walk around the block and just have that little check in to go. Is what I'm doing moving me in the direction that I want to be going? Is this decision taking me closer to my goals or away from it?

Speaker A: Amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming in and sharing your wisdom. I could listen to you talk all day.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: And I'll be sure to reference some of the talks and the research that you mentioned, because I think there's going to be a lot of people that want to learn this. Um, especially looking ahead for 20, 26 and what does that year mean for us and what do I want to achieve in that year and how can I bring something new into the that year? Maybe it could be critical thinking for them.

Speaker B: I hope so. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having me on.