Olivier Roth on Why Revenue Lives in the Network, Not the CRM Record

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to another expert inside interview. My name is John golden from Sales Pop Online Sales magazine and Pipeline or CRM, now known as Coavera. Joining you as usual from a sunny San Diego. And today I'm delighted to be joined by, just up the coast in San Francisco by Olivier Roth. How you doing, Olivier?

Speaker A: Hey, great. How are you, John?

Speaker B: Yeah. And you're the co founder and chief growth officer at the Swarm, the relationship intelligence leader, helping companies and investors unlock the power of their extended networks. You have a, uh, background spanning growth strategy, brand building, startup marketing. You've worked with major organizations, high growth startups across the states and Europe. And today you help companies rethink growth by prioritizing relationships, warm introductions, partnerships and network effects over traditional outbound strategies. So here's an interesting one. You know, you argue the company's most valuable growth asset is the network rather than, you know, the technology, CRM or whatever. Um, and we'll agree with that. I think that's that the network is the most important thing, especially today. That's why we often we talk about network selling. We have a model network selling. But tell me, how did you come to this, uh, realization yourself?

Speaker A: Yeah, we realized that the relationships around the company are the most underutilized and most valuable. Uh, at the same time, uh, the best salespeople already use networks to sell. I mean it's like the oldest thing in the playbook, right? Like uh, who does your investor know? And so on. But it's been very, very, very manual. So just people do it manually. Uh, it's opportunistic, like, oh, I see the opportunity here, or referrals come to you, sort of like, oh, this is something that's hard to repeat. And so we try to build a software around it, build technology around it to make it more systematic and scalable. Um, the realization initially was like the CEO and my co founder David was working at Sequoia Capital. He was uh, helping portfolio companies make the most of their networks and cross pollinate networks around companies. That's sort of like the origin idea of the Swarm, where it all started. There is a category here that doesn't exist really. And that was five years ago when we started the Swarm.

Speaker B: Yeah, and let's face it, um, I mean you probably have to do a lot of education and stuff with leadership teams because I think everybody got so caught up in data, right, and data insights and all that that um, networks and relationships and stuff, they don't fit into neat categories often like that. And as you said, and on top of that, if you're in B2B selling today generally, uh speaking, I mean your buying committees are getting bigger and the amount of people involved are getting bigger. So that whole understanding the networks and understanding the relationships and leveraging that has become even more important.

Speaker A: Yeah. And we've seen like you know, the rise of the go to market engineer and M growth and rev ops really taking a bigger role in organizations too. And so we often like you know, work with them in conjunction with like the sales team as a whole. Right. It's like the revenue team as a whole. But like um, uh, we've really been positioning this actually as data. I mean it is data that's humanly impossible together knowing who your investors know that might be your SAP, who your advisors know, who your happy customers know, who your team knows extra humanly impossible to do. We gather all of that data um, and make it available and ah, and M, we work with a lot of growth team that able to pipe that over and M stack that on top of other signals. I mean it's not like standalone thing. It gets added to other signals to create more pipeline and close deals. It's not just like net new. It's also down the funnel. I have a deal that's stuck in the last six months. Is there a relationship here that can help me accelerate the deal, get the deal on stock and so on? There's just a lot of use cases with this. So I'm um, happy to dig into like you know when people use it.

Speaker B: But yeah, no, do dig into a couple of use cases because it's kind of, it's, it's interesting. Uh, and, and the use cases help people get their head around how this works in practice.

Speaker A: Yeah, the, the number of use cases of like a company's network is if we zoom out it's sort of like dizzying and it's uh, and it's like recruiting because if I now know my employees, former colleagues, like obviously that's a great talent pool. There is fundraising. I can see my investors potential um network and are the investors of fellow founders. Okay, fundraising is great use case. Uh but sales and go market as a whole is, is obviously like the bigger one we've been going after and positioning and inside of that use case there is also a ton of use case. There is like top of the funnel. You know, uh, I have my list of net net new accounts um, that are untapped. I'm going to prioritize that list by connectivity in terms of relationships and then try to find like warm intros into the very top deals. Right. Then there is like um, I said further down the funnel there are some deals that are stuck. I'm going to see if an endorsement maybe that's not an intro, it's just an endorsement we can call it to move the deal forward, bottom of the funnel and then on the other side of the funnel you've closed the deal. If you're thinking of expansions, you're thinking of customer success. How to maximize the connectivity with an account who knows who between organizations. Are there any former employees of. If you're, if you're a bigger company. Right. If you have like a thousand more employees, are there some of our employees that used to work there or they know the right person there to expand in that other department? I mean that's just sales. There's some adjacent use cases too for marketing. Like I am organizing an event looking for speakers. I can look through the network of my former speakers to find a speaker. You know that that's often how people do it. They just do it manually. They don't really have the whole data. They don't really have the whole picture. And so that's where we try to map and bring to the table here. Uh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Because I mean I think that you know, those are really good examples and I think the, the thing is like relationships and let's face it, because of technology and like LinkedIn, all these other things like connections and have exploded. Right. And relationships. But now they're very, and uh, you know a lot of them are very, they're superficial. But to your point is they exist but they're hard to manage and they're hard to mine.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yeah. There is like the, as we dug into that problem over the last few years we realized yeah, the, the, the data mining itself was a hard problem. First of all, you need fresh people data. So we build an entire data set, 500 million people that we keep fresh with drop and striking and so on. That's like if you, if you want to know who knows who, you need to know who's. Who's who. Yeah. So we've got that problem sort of solved over the last five years. And then there's like mapping relationships so you map former colleagues, but not just like hey, those two people work together at Google at the same time for five years. It's like seniority, role function, geography. Like we're. So we apply a bunch of intelligence to try to say okay, those people were actually like in the same team in San Francisco. Okay, that's like much stronger Sort of like commonality than like uh, an intern and the CEO at Google across five years. Right. I mean, um, and that's the scoring of relationships, which is the next problem that we tackle. And you know, it's not over. We keep like the new ideas and how to do this better and better every day. Um, and then like the orchestration now I have all of this data.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah.

Speaker A: Otherwise orchestrate my interest because we're talking about close relationships. So it's not like I'm gonna send 10, 000 emails and it's the opposite of cold outbound in that sense. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna have to be very mindful how I do it. So it's like how do you prioritize your 10000 target accounts? And you know, what are the, what are, what are like the um, uh, the, the ways to, to approach the data? Is it like I'm going to ask for an intro here or maybe I'm going to name drop here. Uh, maybe I'm going to name drop like in an email or maybe I'm going to mention that on the, on the sales call. Um, all that orchestration is like sort of like the next, the next big thing. So.

Speaker B: And I guess as part of this though, do you, you have to educate people how to leverage this property because you could be quite clumsy with that, right? I mean you could take the day like name drop people that you don't really know or, or you know, whatever. So I mean, I guess part of it is also training people to use this elegantly.

Speaker A: Right? High tech and high touch. Like um, you know, it's kind of like the two coins here, the two sides of the coin. I mean, um, so we do a lot of LinkedIn content and, and this, you know, podcast and so on. Spread the word that this is now sort of like a thing that exists and that's accessible but also like how do you, how do you do it? Because the old rules of networking still apply and maybe they apply even more meaning giving before you take sure you nurture the network. Um, you know, you know, making sure you ask with the double opt in like an intro, not just like put people in a thread in the same, uh, email thread or thread and so on. Um, there is a ton that's documented very well obviously over the years, but we do our or fair share. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, but we would agree with you because that's where we said like, I mean as a CRM company, you know, when we, when we rebranded, relaunched and uh, you Know that recently we believe it's. Yeah. Revenue lives in the network, it doesn't live in the record. I mean that's what people, you know, traditionally like, you can think it's all about the record. The record, the single source of truth, the CRM record. Yeah, yeah, that's important. But, but the revenue really lives in the network. In your network. If you look at it, if you look at any deal, any sale or whatever, the, the actual. It lives in all of those touch points, the people who touch it along the way and that's where it really lives. It doesn't live in some static record.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And it's like the swarm is sort of like the mirror of a CRM, if you will. Yeah. I'm not trying to say it replaces the CRM, it doesn't replace the CRM. In fact, it's sort of like additive to it. But m. The CRM is a system of record of the past. It's like all of the interactions that you've had in the past and the swarm gives you potential relationships that you maybe haven't, haven't tapped into yet. So it's the future in a sense. Right as the timeline. But like, so we integrate with HubSpot and Salesforce also. So it doesn't replace the CRM, it's just kind of like augments it with that, like uh, with the network data. So it's like record plus network around. There's, there is gonna be a good LinkedIn post about that. Yeah.

Speaker B: When you work with um, companies and that um, are they. Are people surprised? Like how maybe how richer maybe their networks are and maybe more extensive their networks are that they didn't realize or that they have a lot more to leverage than they didn't realize.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. I mean, so the first thing that comes to people's mind is LinkedIn. It's like, okay, well we're using sales nav, um, and we see the connections of our connections and there is this sort of big misunderstanding or you know, illusion that LinkedIn is your network and it's going to be the network of your network by extension.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: It's only a fraction and it's very imperfect because there is no context. A connection is binary. Either you're connected or you're not and there is no context. And oftentimes that's the reason why people don't, they don't really know um, a lot of their LinkedIn connections. So we incorporate LinkedIn connection on a user opt in basis in this form. But it's not, uh, the starting point. The starting point is like former colleagues, school alumni, investor overlaps, and so on. So people are like, oh, a lot of people come to the swing, like, I want what I get on sales nav, but with like an API and an NCP and so on. And we're like, well, actually like, we've, we zoom out and there is multiple layers of a person's network that we try to capture as much as we can with the public data. And you can then layer on top of that, like email and so on, but it's not complete either. It's just like, it's a better image of the person's network with a score, with, uh, an idea of where the warmest relationships are. Um, and yeah, people, yeah, people are, people are often like, oh, yeah, that goes beyond LinkedIn, obviously. But there is nothing else that LinkedIn sales NAV until now. So people are stuck trying to hack sales and have to do this thing that doesn't really work. That's why people do it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And, yeah, well, LinkedIn's a whole other story, isn't it?

Speaker A: There's another story there.

Speaker B: We could do a whole podcast on LinkedIn itself. But, uh, yeah, so, um, as you were saying, like, you know, the, the, you know, the, the technology part and obviously the AI part, one of the things that's, that's, um, you have to be concerned a little bit about sometimes is like the people, you know, using AI too much and using too many AI tools and maybe ruining their network, maybe ruining their, their ability to be able to connect or whatever, because they, they just take shortcuts and don't use, don't use these tools in a, in a systematic and maybe in a thoughtful fashion.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. I mean, what we, we try to leverage AI in every way we can to get the data in the hands of the right people. Yeah, but then how you use it, like the email that gets sent, you know, you can generate it with AI, obviously, but like, um, that, that's where the, the, you know, the rubber hits the road. It's like what you send, what you receive, the exchange is between people. So what we do is we map the data, uh, we score the data, we surface the data, uh, we pipe it over in your CRM and so on and just kind of try to build that whole thing. But yeah, it's like, um, if you're going to, then unleash, uh, AI to send a thousand intro requests, then you're probably going to get subpar results and you're and you're probably going to ruin your network, like you said so. Yeah, but people don't. Yeah, I mean most people are.

Speaker B: So, so how do you, how do you explain like, the difference? Because some people will say, I've got a massive LinkedIn, look, I've got all these connections, I have a massive LinkedIn network. Yeah. Ah, what's the difference? How do you explain the difference between. Yeah, having a massive LinkedIn network. You are connected to a lot of people, but the difference between that and an effective network.

Speaker A: So M. LinkedIn is your audience, it's not your network.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And people treat it as an audience, which they should, because it's an audience. Because LinkedIn is a social media platform. It's a social network. Social media. Those words are kind of like being confusing. I think so. But. Hm. It's really like a media platform. I have an audience, I build content, I also consume content, I comment, I exchange. It's a wonderful place, frankly, to like learn and share and grow and market. But it's not where your network, uh, is fully captured. It's just kind of like one strange accumulation, um, of connections over the years in very disparate and random ways. Uh, some at conferences, some on calls, some by doing outbound and so on. So, yeah, um, I think that's just kind of like the reframe. It's your audience, not your network is how I've been like, putting it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And then I get the thing too is, you know, traditionally, um, sales teams, you know, it's all about, isn't it? Activity. I mean, you know, that's what it used to be. All major activity, activity, activity. And then when you reorient them towards relationship quality and you know, and building. Ah, how do, how, how do you get that kind of switched between moving from activity, like numbers, numbers, numbers to quality, like quality of your network, quality of your introductions, quality of the people you're connected to.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, it's a combination of both, I think, like, right. Um, and, um, for junior salespeople who don't necessarily have the network, like, this is sort of an opportunity to see the network of department leaders, C level folks, maybe investors. But that's when you start to, we start to talk about the process of how am I going to tap into that. I am sitting there as an account executive, 25 years old. I have Stripe as my account here. And with the Swarm, I can see that there is potential intro path. But like, so the company that needs to build a process around it, like a air Traffic control of intro request.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um, and rules of engagement. Like can an AE ask an investor for an intro? I don't know. It depends on the company, the size. But like that's, that goes into process and so, but I think that's a wonderful opportunity because the people who have the biggest networks, investors, CEO. Right. Like they have. They're also the people who have the least amount of time. And so if you get the information in the hands of the right people with the right process to ask for the help for the right account to unlock the $10 million deal. And that's great. And so yeah, it takes. That picture isn't complete yet. We're working progress. We're building it in conversion with our customers. Um, and I think it just takes kind of alignment between the founders, the leaders and then how is the sales team going to use this effectively. And um, there's change management culture involved into this. So.

Speaker B: Yeah, because it's an interesting, it's a great point that you make there because. Yeah, because you could have, you could easily like it could easily get out of control. Right? I mean you could easily go, oh well I'll just go, I'll just go. I'll go to the investor every time because he's got the biggest network. Right. So I'll always send it to them. Right. Instead of. As you said, instead of being. Well no, that's probably not the best place to ago. But putting kind of rules and understanding and training and as you said, change management around it so you use it properly.

Speaker A: And we are working on like a connector portal. So the connector in the swarm linguo is like someone who has the intro through. So you have your connectors right around, in and around your company. And we're working on that like uh, system. And we've realized that we need to optimize this for the connector experience to be the best possible because it's only going to work if the connector has some control. Well, first of all, like do they. Are they doing this because they're interested in the success of the company or is there a revenue share or do they want like tickets to the Super Bowl? If the demi and the ideal, that stuff and controls and like I want to opt out because I don't have time or I'm gonna opt in but I really only want to get an email every month at the most with a list of people and so.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So there is more, there is more to build there. We're working on that actively. And um, and, and that's the, the fun Part to me, like, it's, it's like at this very moment in time, like, how do we make the connector experience really good? Because if it's really good, then they can connect. They can make the intro and this whole thing then like really starts spinning faster and faster.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's the important point. Yeah. I mean, if you feel value and you feel like you can, you have some control and it just going to overwhelm you, then it becomes like, yeah, yeah. Well, this has been fantastic, Olivier. Great. Really fascinating stuff. All of Olivia's information will be below this video. Uh, but before we go, just remind people again about the swarm.

Speaker A: Yeah. So the swarm is the relationship intelligence leader. We map relationships around your company through investors, advisors, customers, team members, uh, so you can see who knows who. And as for our intros, we're built on this data set that's also available from the API itself. Uh, we connect into the CRM cloud. No chatgpt and so on. There's a lot of fun use case. So, uh, there's a free trial that's@, uh, theswarm.com. uh, so we'd love for you guys to check it out.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's great. And just think about it. Just thinking back to the old days. What did you do? I mean, you went, oh, Olivier, didn't he, he used to work for that company, didn't he, that maybe he knows that part. And then you go off on manual and beef, then you discover, no, he actually didn't work for that company. Somebody else did. And so, so this is, this is now kind of operationalizing something that once upon a time was so manual as to not really be efficient.

Speaker A: Yeah. 100.

Speaker B: Well, listen, thanks again, Olivier. Thank you for watching and listening. See you all again very soon. Thank you.