1286: Jason Santos, Chef/owner of Buttermilk & Bourbon Group

Speaker A: What up Unstoppables? Quick favor to ask before we hit play on today's episode and that is please follow and subscribe to this podcast. Nearly 70% of the people that listen to the show or view it do not subscribe or follow. And you owe it to yourself to do just that. Because if you do, when we get an amazing guest on the show that gets a lot of likes, a lot of shares a lot of views, the algorithm is paying attention and it will push that episode to your feed so you'll get our best content. Not to mention it is absolutely free to you and is the most impactful thing you can do to support this mission, to inspire, empower and to transform the industry. And I can't do it alone. I need your support. Thank you in advance. Welcome to restaurant unstoppable. For 10 years and over 1000 episodes I've been traveling the country chasing word of mouth leads and having in person only long form discussions with the industry's finest owners and operators. Our mission is to inspire, empower and transform the restaurant industry by bridging the gap between this generation's leaders and the next. Listen to today's guest and so many others and get one step closer to becoming unstoppable. This episode is brought to you by Restaurant Technologies, the leader in automated cooking oil management. Their total oil management solution is an end to end closed loop automated system that delivers, monitors, filters, collects and recycles your cooking oil, eliminating one of the dirtiest jobs in the kitchen. Restaurant technologies services over 45,000 customers nationwide. Automate your oil and elevate your kitchen by visiting RTI Inc.com or call 888-779-5314 to get started. Private event inquiries are coming in and you're losing them. Unanswered emails, Ignored calls, Leads that vanish before you can close. You're not losing to the competition, you're losing to the clock. Meet Mia, an AI agent built specifically for private dining. She responds to every lead within seconds 24, 7 with personalized human like messages. She knows your venue inside and out, handles the back and forth, updates your CRM automatically, and converts leads you forgot about into bookings. You didn't expect all of this without touching your team's play. Actually, MIA takes 85% of the busy work off your event team and gets fully integrated in under 10 minutes. Stop leaving private dining revenue on the table. Head over to Hermetic AI that's H E r M M E T I C A I to learn more and tell them I sent you if you're an independent restaurant owner building, next week's schedule probably comes down to a gut feeling. Guessing if Friday is going to be slow, hoping you're not overstaffed and bleeding labor costs. Restaurant owner and listener of this podcast, Albert, built Hot Shift to fix just that. Hot Shift pulls in local events, weather, even nearby concert and game schedules. Weighs that against sales history and shows you the forecast labor costs before you even publish the schedule. Go check out Hot huh Shift at Hot huh Shift pro/unstoppable. That is hot shift dot pro slash unstoppable. One of my favorite parts of hosting Restaurant Unstoppable is hearing the stories behind successful restaurants and the operators making it happen. That's why I partnered with US Foods on their latest Food Fanatics magazine issue for their road trip feature. We're highlighting many of the same operators and sharing their ideas, challenges, and what it takes to succeed in this business. I wanted to partner with US Foods because they do more than deliver products. They help operators move their business forward with quality products, uh, flexible delivery and innovative technology in the business. Solutions designed for the realities of running a restaurant. Restaurant Unstoppable listeners, be sure to check out the latest Food Fanatics magazine and claim your free business bundle@usfoods.com unstoppable with excitement. Allow me to introduce to you today's guest chef, owner of Buttermilk and Bourbon Group, Chef Jason Santos.

Speaker B: My man.

Speaker A: Jason, are you feeling unstoppable today?

Speaker B: I feel fantastic.

Speaker A: Thank you for asking. I'm stoked to be here. You just. I love doing a little bit of research. I try not to go too deep. I give myself a maximum one hour to dive into my guests and to find out who they are. You've been. You do got. You got a lot going on, man.

Speaker B: I do. I do, yeah.

Speaker A: And it's, it's interesting. Like, you're opening restaurants and closing them. Seems like there's a lot of strategy and how you're scaling and why you're scaling. You're. I'm curious if you're subsidizing your. Your restaurants with your, you know, your work on television. Like, I. That's something I don't get a lot into sometimes. So I'm really curious about that. And I just also want to give a special shout out to US Foods. Uh, they've been so generous with their network connecting me with just ballers in the industry. And this is a US Foods introduction, so I know it's going to be good. Every interview I've done so far up to this point, that's been connected through them has just been gold. So I can't wait to dive into who you are, how you got to where you are today. But let's get that motivational, inspirational ball rolling with a success quote or mantra. What do you offer us?

Speaker B: Honestly is probably a little harsh to say, but, uh, my sort of thing is you don't have to be a dick to be good at what you do, you know, and that's, like, really important. I think in this industry, a lot of people, uh, chefs have this sort of facade and stuff that they just need to be tough and swearing and mad. And I just, you know, I employ good people, and I love what I do, and if the passion's there, it sort of comes through, and I think passion is very infectious.

Speaker A: Hell's Kitchen.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, you have a co star there. Yeah, I've, uh, noticed he's changed his tone recently.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: Have you noticed that too?

Speaker B: I have. You know, and I'm not sure if it's. If it's him or if it's, you know, the network or the times. I mean, I'm sure it's a little bit of all the above. I mean, some of the things that would come out of his mouth 10 years ago, or, uh, my mouth, for that matter, definitely doesn't fly nowadays. So I think it's a little bit of everything.

Speaker A: I will say that when, you know, when I first discovered, uh, I mean, I can say his name, Chef Ramsay, you know, um, Gordon Ramsay, I was kind of turned off by him. And, you know, you have. We'll say the other name that's kind of known for being out there too. Um, Bar rescue.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know?

Speaker A: Yeah. I, uh, was like, as somebody who was a student of the industry, I'm like, these guys are putting an image out there that's just not good.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: For the industry. And I kind of just wrote it off. I was like, I'm not interested in that shit. But I've noticed lately that the tone is changing. I think then it was probably shock and awe, and they were just trying to get discovered. It was showmanship, and I get that too.

Speaker B: What are your thoughts mean? If I'm being honest at front, it's a TV show, you know, and that's what it is. I mean, these guys, I've worked very close to him, and Gordon Ramsay's got a hundred restaurants, just opened his hundred restaurant, and, like, I've spent more time next to him than probably most of his employees, you know? So, yeah, it's it's certainly. I mean I'm not the nicest guy on that show either, you know, but that's the show and it's like, you know what you sign up for, you know what you're getting into. I think it's very fair. Um, and you know, obviously if it's boring and it's very polite, it doesn't make for good teams tv. So first and foremost it's a TV show. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. So hit me with the quote one more time. You don't have to be a dick to.

Speaker B: To be good at what you do.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know. Yep.

Speaker A: Great way to get this thing started. So man, you. I'm trying to be better about getting right into when you become a restaurateur. But you have a really cool background. Some past guests that you've worked with. I want to pay homage to your come up.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Uh, so where. I mean I'm just gonna run through it real quick. I saw 1994 to 96, you're Marriott 2000, sorry 99 to 2005 you're with Andy husband at Tremont 647. And then from there you uh, kind of set out own a little bit and kind of were out from underneath that shadow. And you were at the Gargoyles on the Square and you uh, were kind of the front man. This is kind of when you stepped into.

Speaker B: I mean, you know, basically I went to. Long story short, I went to culinary school. I knew I've always wanted to cook. I mean I remember being like 7, 8 years old. My parents got divorced and so when they were kind of figuring stuff out, I would spend a lot of time at my grandparents house and they always had PBS on so I'd watch Ian Can Cook and Julia Childs and all those shows and I re. I remember being like 7, 8 years old writing the recipes down from the show. So I've always wanted to cook. I sort of joke that I came out of the womb making aioli. You know, I've just, I've never done anything else. I've only cooked. Uh, my mom was a paramedic, my dad was a Navy seal. So very sort of tough people jobs, you know. And I'm like, I want to make cold food hot. You know, it's pretty interesting. But I uh. The Marriott was an internship through culinary school which is, you know, it's a great company but I sort of. The food was slightly inferior and I just really wanted to get in stuff. So my technical first job was for Chris Lessinger at East Coast Grill, uh, James Beard Award winning Best Chef of the Northeast. So to get out of culinary school and have that be your first experience with food, I learned good food very, very quickly. Um, and then, you know, I worked there for a couple years, and I went to work for Andy Husbands in the South End. I was the chef there for seven years. Um, and then I left there, and I was the executive chef at Gargoyles on the Square in Davis Square. And that's when I really started making my name. At the time, I was doing a lot of molecular kind of cooking and very shocking food and really put me on the map. We won a Best of Boston award a few times and, you know, got nominated for Star Chefs and all these other things. And that's when I was like, okay, I want to go after the James Beard Award, and this is what I'm trying to do. Um, and then I kind of started to grow up a little bit, and I realized that, you know, you can be the best chef in the world, but if your numbers don't work, you're out of business. And so I really started getting that business sense pretty early on.

Speaker A: When was that, would you, um, say,

Speaker B: you know, date wise? Uh, let's see. Is in the late 2000s, I think. Uh, I'm trying to think about 20 years ago.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Um, and then I, you know, I worked at this little restaurant in Davis Square, and I just started to. The owner was awesome, but he was, like, a little cheap, you know, and I. It was like, I really picked up on that. And, you know, I try not to be cheap, but I also understood the business part fiscal responsibility 100%. And at the time, younger, uh, chef, I was just cooking. And that's all my worries were, is what's special tonight? Is the food good? And I would go home. I didn't really have to pay attention to the costs and food, and. And that's when I really started to pick up the business sense. And I. I almost enjoyed that as much as cooking.

Speaker A: So this is 05 to 2012 that you're going from being hyper focused on the food to connecting the dots.

Speaker B: Yeah, I was. I mean, I started being responsible for things. I started growing, you know, it was one owner in a restaurant and basically me, you know, so I had a lot of responsibility. You know, I remember he would always go to, like, Restaurant Depot in the morning to save a buck and, you know, uh, a lot of things, not for me. I learned some things I wanted to do and some things I didn't want to do. But nonetheless, I learned it. You know, I really paid attention to it, and I started getting that business sense.

Speaker A: So, I mean, when talking to chefs, it's. It's. We. It's hard to not gravitate towards the food. Right. Because that's what you're. That's what got you into this. That's your true passion. It's really about the. Okay, this is your passion, the food. But how do you make, um, money doing it? How do you take care of other people doing it? So what were the biggest lessons, if during this time look like, in hindsight, looking back, looks like you really kind of started to wrap your mind around the business side of things around this time. So what were the big. The biggest lessons during that time?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, at the restaurant I worked at in the summer, it was horrifically slow. And I mean, really, really slow. Scary slow. So we had to really pinch pennies and come up with specials and activations to get people in the restaurant. So I learned that it wasn't just about making good food on a plate. It was really. That was kind of to get them in there, but to keep them and have them coming back, it's a lot more to it, you know.

Speaker A: So what did you learn about keeping people coming back during this time?

Speaker B: I mean, it's not just about the food. It's about the hospitality, the service, the decor, the experience, uh, the reaction that we're getting. And so I just. It was like that full ecosystem of a restaurant, and. And, you know, as a younger cook, I just cared about the food. I cared about me. You know, it was very selfish.

Speaker A: So you had a partner. Um, and from what I could find online, this partner wasn't the front person. They wanted you to be the front person, but they're still very active on the.

Speaker B: Well, at Gargoyles, I was just an employee. I was the executive chef. So there was an owner.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: Obviously.

Speaker A: But you're so. But they still were kind of, you know, they were behind the scenes.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, not necessarily. They were definitely. I mean, he was like, basically the front of the house manager, and I was there chef. You know, he would run the business. And, you know, at the time, I was in my late 20s, you know, so I didn't really know a lot. So that was my first experience, you know, because when I was the chef at Truman647, I was just responsible for food. That was it. I wasn't really a part of the other things. And we'd have meetings, stuff like that.

Speaker A: But were you Doing like, ordering and stuff like that.

Speaker B: Ordering, menu writing, specials, you know, kitchen, uh, staffing. But when I got into gargoyles, it was more I was involved in the bigger picture, which I thought was really, really nice, you know, And I really started to learn things and, and understand that doesn't matter how good the food is, if people aren't coming in, like, you're in trouble if, if you're busy, you know, certain times of the year, slower, certain times a year, just, you know, it was good and bad in the best way possible because I felt the pressure of a restaurant that was slower in the summer. And we're trying to make money and what can we do to get people in? And then September came, and overnight, you know, because of the area, it was flooded with people, right, because of all the colleges and stuff. So it was like literally like flip a switch and we were full every night.

Speaker A: You know, that's, that's relative to this market Boston. And I gotta be honest, man, driving down here today, I'm sitting up in, uh, on the border of New Hampshire and Massachusetts. I left with like 2 hours. I was like, I'm not risking it driving into Boston.

Speaker B: Zero traffic today.

Speaker A: Today, zero traffic. It's also a Thursday before 4th of July weekend. And I also found parking next door.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I'll give you an example. Yesterday, I live in Burlington. Yesterday I left my house. It was an hour and 17 minutes into this restaurant. Today, it was 27 minutes. Yeah.

Speaker A: That's wild.

Speaker B: You know, so it was, it was unbelievable.

Speaker A: I got here like, literally an hour and a half early.

Speaker B: Traffic. I mean, I spend more time, sadly,

Speaker A: sometimes that's one of the cool things, but that I like to explore is that, you know, no two restaurants are exactly the same and no two markets are exactly the same. And you have these two dynamic things moving in an e. In an industry, a culture that's constantly changing. So that's a thing. Third dynamic that people don't talk about. And these things slingshot off of each other constantly. So it's so hard to predict. Uh, so you're kind of starting to see the big picture during this time and how everything moves. Safe to say, since 2005 and 2012, you. You've evolved as a restaurant owner and chef, Correct?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Looking through your lens today, back at that younger version of Chef Jason, who were you?

Speaker B: Oh, at the time, I was this hot shot chef that was like getting a ton of press and thought I was unstoppable and just thought, you know, I had the golden touc everything I did was perfect. And that's ironically when I decided I think I want my own restaurant, you know, because I just felt like I was on top of the world. I was getting all these awards, and I was cooking, you know, really overnight, uh, almost starting to get big in the city. And I thought, well, I'm making this guy all this money. It's time to make myself money. And that's, I think, that leap of faith kind of thing.

Speaker A: I do think there's something important to be said about having assets. Um, that's one thing that is becoming increasingly more important, that I get out into the world. I think that if you want to attract onto yourself the best and you want to provide them security, a job's not enough. I don't think today, in today's market, the only way, the best way to truly provide security to somebody is if they have an asset, if they can get something that is appreciating in value and that they can make more valuable if they choose to show up. Uh, what you're saying. Yes. Dive into why you agree.

Speaker B: Well, I agree because I think, for one, this industry evolves. I think I evolve, and I think you have to stay ahead of the curve. If you. If you don't go with the team times, then the times are going to blow by you. So I think it's very important that you're open to change. Uh, you know, you look to the future, but also look in the present. And I just. For me, I feel like I'm really good at looking at the bigger picture in the future. And it's like, you know, you're only as good as your last meal and what's next. And, you know, we're just trying to be. Every day I wake up, I try to be better than the day before. Yeah.

Speaker A: So was there an opportunity to become a partner at Gargoyles? Was that something that was discussed, or did you just want to go to your own?

Speaker B: No. I mean, it was not even on the table. And at the that point, I wasn't even sure that's what I wanted. You know, I. Towards the end of my tenure there, I, you know, was looking to do more. Um, and I can tell you that story about how I met my partner actually at that restaurant, but I wasn't really sure I want to open that restaurant. I was. I. I knew I was immature at the time. I knew, like, deep down, I knew what I was doing wrong. Like, I was this arrogant chef that was going after all these awards. Like, I wasn't ready to run my own business. Business. And have that fiscal responsibility. Towards the end there, um. Uh, the story of how I took that leap is I was on Hell's Kitchen as a contestant. Um, I was the runner up on the show.

Speaker A: What year was that?

Speaker B: Honestly? Uh, I've no idea. It was 15 years ago.

Speaker A: Was it towards the. So, 15 years ago. 20. 11.

Speaker B: 11, yeah.

Speaker A: So towards the end of your tenure at Gargoyles.

Speaker B: Right. So I think, if I remember correctly, it was about six months before I was done there, but I was on Hell's Kitchen. I spoke to the owner. I said, hey, look, I have this opportunity. Opportunity. I think if I can go on and do well, it'll give the restaurant, you know, obviously, some pr. So he was game. Uh, left for the show we filmed for at the time. We filmed for two months, so I left for two months.

Speaker A: How much money did you make from

Speaker B: that show at the time? I think it was 100 bucks a day. Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, they obviously pay for all your expenses, but you're basically sequestered. You live on the set, so you're not out going shopping or doing anything. Everything's provided for you. Yeah. Um, so I was on the show, and then I remember doing the show and how I got on the show, and it wasn't even something I was really interested in. I actually had a good friend of mine that said, you know, you should definitely be on the show. You have a good personality. And I said, uh, you know, I don't know. And the morning of the casting, I was on my way to Dim Sum with my friend dawn, and she was like, we should just swing by and see what happens. I swung by. There was, you know, thousands of people at the Grand Ballroom at the Park Plaza Hotel. And when I was there, I just all of a sudden started getting super competitive and was like, I need to be on the show. I need to beat all these people out. Ended up being on the show, did very well in the show, was the runner up on the show. And then, you know, you obviously film the show, and then you come back, and it's not even on for, like, a year. So you're just, you know what happened? You know what you did. You have to keep it a secret. Um, show aired, and then literally, like, it exploded. I was getting calls from doing the Today show and all these national shows, and I was like, wow, this is pretty incredible. This, like, little kind of fame that I was having. You know, in the beginning, I enjoyed the notoriety. Um, you know, like, we all want to Be seen. It's a human need. As a younger cook, I just. I loved it. I couldn't get enough of it. Um, and then I was cooking at Gargoyles one night, and I had this guy ask for the chef. I came out to the dining room, um, and it was my future partner, Jack. And he's older, you know, he's in his 80s now, but, you know, so you're talking 20 years ago, in his 60s. Gave me his card and said, if you ever want to open a restaurant, this is one of the best meals I've ever had. Here's my card. Let's. Let's talk. Yeah, I said, sure. You know, I kind of heard that story a bunch of times, you know? Um, and then I decided I'm going to open my own restaurant. I had made some money from doing stuff for the show, appearances, that kind of thing, and I, you know, was pretty good at saving. So I decided it's time to open a small little restaurant. And I found this space. It, uh, was a little bit more expensive than I had planned. The budget was a little bit, uh, I didn't have enough money, basically. And so I was like, hey, I'm gonna reach out to this guy and say, hey, I'm interested. Do you want a partner? Coincidentally, he actually owned that space. So, I mean, the odds of that happening was insane.

Speaker A: Wait, say that one more time. I think I missed the connection.

Speaker B: Yeah. So my. My partner was like, hey, if you ever want to open a restaurant, give me a call. I found a restaurant space. I reached out to the broker, and I, you know, got the price of the rent and all the above, and he was like, let me connect you with the owner. The same guy.

Speaker A: Got it, got it. So, hey, a little serendipitous.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it was insane. So we decided to go into business, and. And I had full carte blanche with the restaurant. You know, he put up the money, I got to do whatever I want. I picked every plate, wrote the menu, um, and it was great. And it did very well for a handful of years, but still arrogant. Still, all of a sudden, making all this money, went out and bought a Porsche, was going to Vegas every other weekend, like, just. Again, it was all ego driven, you know.

Speaker A: So you mentioned something earlier, you know, and I think it was during your time earlier, during your tenure at, uh, Gargoyles, uh, where you said, I want to go after the awards. I want the James Beard. Uh, what other awards were you on your radar that you wanted during that time? This episode is brought to you by Restaurant Technologies, the leader in automated cooking oil management. Unstoppable restaurant owners know which services to keep in house and which services to outsource. And oil management is one of those things you should outsource. Their Total Oil Management Solution is an end to end, closed loop automated system that delivers, monitors, filters, collects and recycles your cooking oil, eliminating one of the dirtiest jobs in the kitchen. Create a more efficient food service operation and ensure consistent food quality with a safer, smarter and sustainable cooking oil solution. Restaurant technology services over 45,000 customers nationwide, including countless past guests on the show. Automate your oil and elevate your kitchen by visiting RTI Inc.com or call 888-779-5314 to get started. Here's the painful truth about private dining inquiries. Most of them die in your inbox. Your team's already spread thin, so when an event lead comes in, especially after hours, nobody jumps on it fast enough. The prospect moves on, the booking goes to the venue down the street, and you never even knew you're in the running. Now let's play the what if game. What if you had a team member who never clocked out, who responded to every private event inquiry in seconds and every single time, no matter the hour? That's mia. Uh, an AI agent built specifically to convert private dining leads into booked events. Mia gets trained on your venue and integrated with your CRM in under 10 minutes. From that moment on, she is working. She sends personalized human like messages to the leads the second they come in. She answers questions about your space menus, the availability with the confidence of your best tenured salesperson. She nurtures the leads that when cold and reactivates past guests year after year automatically. No input from m you, no follow up reminders, no dropped balls. Mia handles 85% of the busy work your event team dreads so that they can focus on what actually requires human touch. She doesn't sleep, she doesn't forget. And she is constantly refining her approach to close more deals over time. This is not a chatbot. This is a purpose built AI agent that treats your private dining room like the revenue engine it's meant to be. Stop leaving private dining revenue on the table. Head over to Hermetic H e r M M E T I c AI to book your demo today. Tell them I I sent you.

Speaker B: Well, I mean, you know, I was, I was at this restaurant for like two months. We won Best of Boston. And then, uh, I was cooking at the James Beard House. And then star chefs Which. Which, uh, I'm not even sure. Still around big thing a lot as a resource. Yeah. So I was asked to go to New York, and I just kind of was like, this is pretty cool, this notoriety. Like, you. You cook and you get instant gratification by these awards and this acknowledgment, and then you attack on the tv, and then you start doing these. You know, my first appearance ever on television was the. The CBS Morning show, and I was like, this is incredible. I was like, you know, at the time, whatever, in my 20s, and I'm doing national TV, and it was just. It was like, incredible, you know, like, I get to cook and be this sort of star.

Speaker A: And then you also went on to say that you were focused on the wrong things.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I was focused on the cool part of being a cook. You know, I was like, again, I was traveling to Vegas, you know, meeting all these women and, like, going on TV and cooking great food. But what lacked was that the responsibility in the future. I was just living in the present, enjoying the money, enjoying the fame. And, you know, the more you got, the more you spend and the more you do dumb things. And I just wasn't responsible. I went from working six days a week down to three days a week. And then, you know, I was traveling and trusting everything, and I just. I was young and dumb and. But what.

Speaker A: What was the result of that?

Speaker B: The restaurant failed. I mean, it made it about two years, and then sales went down. And, you know, I was told at the time by people I trusted, don't open a restaurant less than 75 seats. It's very hard to make money. It's like, no, no, no. This is 35 seats. I'll make money. I'm the best. You know, and it failed. And it was. Honestly, I think about it every day. It was the best thing that's ever happened to me.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, it's. I've heard advice to not go too big too. Right.

Speaker B: I think there's that sweet spot for sure. I mean, a full. A giant restaurant. Not full is not good either.

Speaker A: Which just goes to show that there is no one way.

Speaker B: Right? Exactly. I mean, every restaurant is a living, breathing animal and has different needs. But at the time, 35 seats in an area that, in retrospect, was terrible. Um, I just. My arrogance was like, no, they'll come. If you build it, they'll come. And, you know, I was on this little side street in the financial district. There was no foot traffic, 35 seats, super upscale restaurant doing very avant Garde food, you know, And I think back, I'm like, what was I thinking? You know, it's all the opposite of what I should have done.

Speaker A: Well, you look at what's this, this, um, this, uh, this name for the sushi that's really hot right now. I'm drawing a blank, but it's like, it's the Hyper High Touch Sushi in Boston. There's one in Boston, just won an award.

Speaker B: I think that's what it is.

Speaker A: Um, omakase sushi. Like, this concept works really good with like 10 seats.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: But you're also charging like 500, $600 per person.

Speaker B: Right. And then, you know, and I'm sure they're smart enough to know their rent and what their costs are.

Speaker A: Ultra High Touch customized per individual who walks in.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Um, I had, uh, another chef on the show recently, and, uh, his name will come to me, I'm sure. But the third space where he doesn't, he's not on any reservations, platforms. Everything's word of mouth. He's booked out months in advance. Uh, um, his name is right at the tip of my tongue. I apologize if you listen to this, my friend. Uh, and you know, like, he has one sitting, uh, again, I think he's charging 2, 300, $400 depending on the event. Uh, I think he's got a 30 seat long table in the middle of his restaurant and he's booked out, sold out. And, uh, you know, it's like, what is the right answer?

Speaker B: Right? You know, I don't think there is a right answer.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, it, that, that. I think that's the answer.

Speaker B: Yeah, it depends, Right?

Speaker A: What's the market?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What's the vision? What are your values?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, um, back to this idea of, you know, you're focused on the wrong things. Do you think that society today, other chefs getting into the game, do you think we're still hooked on this award culture or do you. What's going on there?

Speaker B: I think it's a little bit different now because I think back then paper press was very big. I mean, you know, I was on the COVID of like, the local magazine, stuff like that. You know, the written press is kind of fallen down. It's more online. So I mean, I think it evolves. I think, you know, look, I think any chef, uh, has an ego, and I think you sort of have to have somewhat of an ego to, to do this, you know, be in this business. But, um, for me now, it's completely different. But that's a different story. But I think, you know, of course you want to be acknowledged for doing well, but to me, doing well is having a full restaurant. You know, it's not these awards anymore. I could frankly care less, you know.

Speaker A: And when did that shift happen for you?

Speaker B: When I had my. When my restaurant failed, you know, I realized, geez, I did everything wrong. I had time to think about it, and, uh, I realized what I did wrong. And I said to myself, I'll never make that money mistake again.

Speaker A: Do you think there's some level of truth that you need the awards to be able to like? Is it about the award? No. But will that award absolutely lutely be a launchpad for you to. To get the attention you need to be successful?

Speaker B: I mean, I can't speak for other people, but for me, it was helping keep my confidence. You know, when you have a failed restaurant, you're just obliterated. You think? You know, I was, like, thinking about leaving the business, and I'm not good enough.

Speaker A: Yeah, take me there. Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, it was. It was crazy. I mean, it was, um. I remember, like, we were on top of the world. Like I said, I was making all this money, and then, you know, next thing you know, it's like, I can't pay my bills. I had to lay people off. It was like I was back to cooking seven nights a week and, you

Speaker A: know, taste of humble pie. Yeah.

Speaker B: Trying to get 10 people in the door just to break even kind of thing. And it was. It was really tough. But again, it was the best thing that has ever happened to me.

Speaker A: And this was blue ink 2011. You opened, closed 2014. Best thing that happened to you. Why was that the best thing that happened to.

Speaker B: Because I learned exactly what not to do. And I realized, don't you do, uh. You don't fuck around and be an idiot. And business comes first, and the restaurant has to come first, you know, not your needs and your money and what you want to do. It's. The restaurant has to come first, you

Speaker A: know, traveling, spending money. Ego, ego, ego. I can't. I can't fail. Um, I mean, give me the lowest point during that time. Really paint the picture. Where were you?

Speaker B: Uh, it was blueing towards the end, and we at the time were doing an event every single month in general, and we were killing it. And then I did an event, and I remember we only sold three tickets in this whole restaurant. And I was just devastated. I was. I was broken at the time. I was like, I couldn't pay my bills. I had to stop taking Money. I, you know, I just. It was just crumbling in front of me and I couldn't control it. And the problem is that it went too far. You know, if I had caught it or noticed it earlier, I believe I could have turned it around. But it was too late. You know, the money was gone and. And people weren't coming in.

Speaker A: Yeah, the industry moved on to the next person.

Speaker B: Because I wasn't in the restaurant as much as I should have been. I think quality went down and, you know, it just. It was a full combination of just being a dumb, young, idiot cook.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I appreciate the humility, man. I really do. It's not easy to talk about that kind of stuff. But it seems like things turned around for you, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I, I segued. So my partner, Jack at the time, he, you know, he had had many, many businesses. Businesses. But we had another restaurant. He, uh, had another restaurant, uh, that we were. He was going to open in the financial district, which was called Abbey Lane. That's what we named it. But he had said to me, he said, look, I know this didn't go well, but I really believe in you as well, and your food's fantastic. And, you know, kind of was like, we'll make sure this place is run. You worry about the kitchen. And so we partnered up there. I remember, um, you know, I had sort of made some mistakes at Blue Inc. And I. And I don't blame him for trusting me less because, you know, his money was at stake as well. So for this next restaurant, I didn't want the favor of him putting up the money. I wanted my own money because I believe. Because he put up the money in the beginning, I didn't have that vested interest. I didn't have that sense of urgency. I didn't have that worry. So I.

Speaker A: But you had equity in that business.

Speaker B: I did. I did. But that first business failed, so there was no equity. You know, I basically got to walk away scot free. And, uh, because, you know, he had put up the money, I had no loss, you know, so other than my ego at stake and some humble pie. But this new restaurant, I knew there,

Speaker A: There's a lesson there. Don't spend your own money on the first.

Speaker B: I mean, it's exactly that, you know, but.

Speaker A: Sorry to interrupt.

Speaker B: No, no, no. But that's. That is the, uh, truth. I mean, you know, you don't know what's going to happen. It was my first venture, but I knew I had to put myself in a position to be scared to succeed again. I had to rebuild my ego. So what I did is I wrote a check to be a partner there, you know, versus him putting up the money in equity and me basically sweat equity in it back.

Speaker A: How did that change things?

Speaker B: I remember I had $62,000 in the bank and I wrote a check for 61,500. Wow. Um, and I knew that if this failed, I would be on the street and I needed that. So you need to be scared.

Speaker A: You needed to be scared.

Speaker B: I need to be scared in this restaurant. You know, from a third the boats. Yes, 100%. But like I offer even now I still put myself in a position because I know I to need, need that pressure to get out of it, you know. So went from a 35 seat restaurant to a 330 seat restaurant.

Speaker A: I thought uh, I only saw 200, but three. Three. So you really scaled up and this. Did this open in 2012? Was there a little bit of overlap?

Speaker B: Uh, I think it was 13 years ago it opened.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So whatever the math.

Speaker A: So Blue Ink had fully closed before Abby Lane.

Speaker B: Yeah. So basically Blue Inc. Was closing in like a month later. We were doing construction next restaurant.

Speaker A: So way more volume. But you had your hotel experience. Did that serve you?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean the hotel experience. I was like 18 years old. I mean I was making turkey clubs and shrimp cocktails. So I mean there was certain experience as far as the structure comes from the hotel. But I wasn't, you know, I was too young. It was my first basically real cooking job. So I learned a lot, you know, as far as food goes. But not. I was no part of the business in that hotel whatsoever.

Speaker A: Can we zoom up to 30,000ft real quick? Just get big picture. Just. So, uh, I, I usually start here when I start the interview. I forgot today. But basically where are you today? What restaurants do you own today? What are, what's in your portfolio?

Speaker B: So I have a, uh, Butterbird, which is a small, uh, basically fried chicken sandwich place in Watertown. I have two buttermilk and bourbon locations. One in Watertown, one in Back Bay of Boston. I have Ghost, uh, Light Tavern, which is in the theater district. And then this citrus and salt that we're in. And I'm in construction now with a second citrus and salt in Burlington.

Speaker A: Six total locations. So six total locations. Is there a, in this con, in this group? Uh, is there a cash ah, cow like your, your star?

Speaker B: We're sitting in it.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So citrus and salt.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And um, but your, your claim to fame was buttermilk and bourbon Correct. Like, in terms of, like, flagship. Yeah.

Speaker B: Buttermilk and bourbon. Was that when I decided to do buttermilk and bourbon? I was sort of, you know, if we go back to Abbey Lane. Abbey Lane was open for nine years. You know, it was American. It was in the theater district. It was touristy. It was, you know, the food was very predictable. Steak tips and nachos and, you know, upscale kind of bar food. So I, um, went from cooking this, like, really fancy food to giving them what they want. And that was a slight, humble pie, too. So Abbey Lane was running on all cylinders. It was, you know, doing fantastic. And then I decided that I wanted to do something else. You know, I wanted to get back into where it was about the food. Abby Lane was about the business. It was doing $100,000 a week. Um, but, you know, I was cooking simpler food than I was sort of used to. So I decide. My wife took me to New Orleans for my birthday. I'd never been to New Orleans in my life.

Speaker A: Beautiful city, incredible.

Speaker B: Like, I fell in love with it instantly. We ate eight dozen oysters in two days. Like I said to myself, if I ever open another restaurant, I want to do something kind of New Orleansy. I just. The culture, the people, the music, all of the above. So I was looking for a space, found the space. Uh, the first buttermilk and bourbon location. Walked into that space, and it just reminded me of New Orleans. It had all these different rooms. It was in an old building. It was, like, beat up in the best way. And it just screamed New Orleans. And I said, uh, same thing. Like, what am I doing? I'm like this white guy from Melrose. Like, what am I doing? Open a Southern restaurant? But I just. I went to New Orleans a bunch of times that summer and just ate around. And it's the passion. I mean, I feel like the passion drives everything.

Speaker A: Also, who was doing that in Boston back in 2000?

Speaker B: It was nonexistent. Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, 17.

Speaker B: Yeah. Right.

Speaker A: So there, you know, your blue ocean effects. Yeah. You know, you, like, you have no competition. Uh, so I think that's really smart. So I'm just going to run through the dates. So we already talked about 2011 was your first restaurant that you are a partner in. Uh, that closed in 2014. And then you went straight to Abbey Lane, where you. You, for the first time, you put equity in $61,000. Uh, then. Then there was Back Bay Harry's, which is now closed.

Speaker B: So Back Bay Harry's was prior to citrus and salt. It was Citrus. Okay. So we opened Back Bay Harry's. Uh, at the time, my partner Jack, he had a partner. Same thing, like, older guy. Um, they wanted some to do this sort of elegant local restaurant. So we opened Back Bay Harry's. The partner was Harry. So there was. There was the three of us in this restaurant, and it was open, I think, four years maybe.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And it was just, you know, in retrospect, it was boring. It was. It was Brown.

Speaker A: If you're batting.100 in the restaurant industry, no one does that.

Speaker B: Yeah, it was.

Speaker A: Denny Meyer doesn't do that.

Speaker B: Right, Exactly. And it was just. It was brown, boring. It was a little bit of everything. It was like some flatbreads and some burgers, and it's just same thing. I just think maybe back then you could pull that off. But it's. It just started to evolve. The restaurant business.

Speaker A: Yeah, same. Yeah. And so I'm just gonna run through real quick, just so get it all out. So we had Back Bays was that. That has closed, uh, since. In 2017. But, uh, then you had citrus and salt in 2017. That. That went into that.

Speaker B: We flipped it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. Uh, 2020, you had BNB fish. Uh, that closed in 2022. Um, and then 2021, you open Buttermilk, Uh, Bourbon Watertown, your second butterbuilt Buttermilk, Uh, and Bourbon. Um, and then December 2021, you opened Nash Bar in Stage, which then, um, is.

Speaker B: Or now Ghost Light.

Speaker A: Yeah, which is now Ghost Light, which is still going. So this is the kind of stuff I like, because you can see that there's, like, intention that's like, are things going well? No. Do we kill ourselves trying to save it, or do we. Do we listen to the market and make it?

Speaker B: That's exactly it. I mean, you know, it made, uh. The optics may look negative. Like, oh, uh, Abbey Lane closed, and then you did Nash Bar. And the Nash Bar closed. And Ghost. Like, end of the day, the restaurant's been open for 16 years, 15 years, whatever it is, you know, I don't

Speaker A: see that and see failure. I see lessons.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is. And that's what I learned younger. I learned that you have to change. You have to evolve. There's a shelf life to everything.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, what was cool 10 years ago is not cool now. It's not what people want. You have to keep changing.

Speaker A: And you said that Citrus and salt is your. Your cash cow. So do you mind getting into the economics?

Speaker B: I mean, you know, the other restaurants are close behind but this restaurant here does six million a year.

Speaker A: Six million?

Speaker B: You know, we operate about, ah, 200,000amonth in profit.

Speaker A: You have how many seats in here?

Speaker B: This is 180 seats.

Speaker A: 180 seats. Um, and what is the concept?

Speaker B: So it's, it's coastal Mexican, but it's not your stereotypical rice and beans burritos. Like, we don't really have any of that stuff, but it's chef driven flavor. We are very authentic in flavor, but we take a lot of culinary freedom in the execution. So, uh, an example, like, we do a street corn that's got smoked mayonnaise and lime and cotija. And instead of chilies, we grind flaming hot cheetos into a powder. And that's like the spice. So you get a little bit of crunch. Which, you know, again, we've done this seven years ago. the time, I thought it was cool. Now I'm like a little kitschy. But it's still our number one seller. And it's delicious because if you close your eyes, you're still getting the aioli, the crema, the, the spice. It's just, in a way. So our food here is, is flavor wise, authentic. But how we do it, we're in New England. It's chef driven. I don't want to be a traditional, like, stereotypical taco spot. So we, we do a lot of different stuff.

Speaker A: And still, again, very ahead of the curve relative to Mexican, I think Mexican was blowing up. You have margaritas. Right. But that was more like your traditional Tex Mex.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, authentic Mexican started, I think would start picking up around this time where people are like, whoa, like, you know, Mexico, this isn't what we know as Mexican food. Yes, it is. But like, there's so much diversity in the country.

Speaker B: I mean, you know, when Back Bay Harry's was going, it was, you know, it was still doing okay. It just wasn't doing great. It was not something. I wasn't passionate about it. And frankly, when I decided to do citrus and salt, which was my concept, my idea, I wasn't even that into Mexican food. I just knew that there was a gap in the market.

Speaker A: Got it.

Speaker B: And I knew that I could learn about it enough to succeed.

Speaker A: Got it. So 6 million a year. What are your. How does that look on prime costs?

Speaker B: Our prime cost is 55%.

Speaker A: 55. So how does that prime cost split up between labor and cost of goods?

Speaker B: Yeah, so we run labor basically around 27 to 28%. And food cost comes in around 27 and change. Um, we do, do, ah, a ton of like, purees for the bars and juices and stuff. So we do non alcoholic costs, which it probably adds another couple points, but it's very profitable business. The sales are great. The, um, our profits are great. Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, and if I'm looking at your descending list, um, of like the, the things you spend the most money on, uh, what's that called again? I'm drawing a blank right now. But, you know, it's. If I were to look at your list and you were to reach out to US Foods and be like, hey, um, and every restaurant should do this by, by the way, like, give me a descending list of what, where my money is going, what I spend the most of my money on, the second most. Uh, and like, what is the thing you spend most of your money on here?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, simple math. I mean if you, if you're doing whatever you do, like we, you know, we did 130 grand last week. So 30 of that is basically labor or just around it. 30% of that is about food. And then you have rent, you know.

Speaker A: So if I'm looking at your food costs. Yeah. What is the thing that you guys spend most of your money on?

Speaker B: Produce.

Speaker A: Produce, yeah. Is there a specific item on that?

Speaker B: I mean, I guess avocados. I mean, we're buying 10, 15 cases a week. Avocados, you know, I mean, in a restaurant like this particular restaurant, it's. Everything is fresh, so it's all produce. You know, purees, lime, citrus, you know, and then obviously protein. But, um, we spend way more. I mean, we're spending last, uh, year, actually. I don't know here, but I know across my restaurants we spent 1.4 million on produce. Yeah. You know.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, but you're still doing good in, uh, terms of your prime costs being 55, you're below, I mean, 60 is like below you want to. Below 60. Right. So you got five points there. But that revenue. Right, right.

Speaker B: That makes million sales cures. All right.

Speaker A: Exactly. That really helps. So what percentage, I mean, 55 of your, um, your revenue is going towards prime labor and cost of goods. What about rent? That must be high.

Speaker B: In Boston, rent is 30 grand.

Speaker A: Yeah. What is that work out until percent of 30 grand a month?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, I don't know, I'd have to pull to see, but I mean, generally you want your rent to be under 10%. I think, I think if I remember, we're about 8% here, which is pretty average. That's good.

Speaker A: Yeah. For Boston.

Speaker B: I mean, Yeah, I mean, rent is reasonable here.

Speaker A: Again, revenue helps, serves, cures a lot.

Speaker B: Exactly that.

Speaker A: Um, and what about marketing? Do you guys have a budget for marketing?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I have a full publicist that is on retainer that we pay. We have a social media marketing, you know, employee that we have here. So. But we don't do any print marketing. We don't really pay to market other than internally.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, um, but just the, the, you know, the publicists and these, the staff members. But you're not running ads or anything like that?

Speaker B: No, we don't do any of that.

Speaker A: So you don't have like a line item for marketing?

Speaker B: I mean, not necessarily. I mean, if something comes across the table that we're interested in. But again, I, I feel that social media has taken over. Like, I could, you know, spend, uh, hire an employee to do our social media, or I could pay to do an ad in the Boston Globe. I mean, you know, it's like, who's. Who's doing that stuff?

Speaker A: So it's just. So it goes into. That gets absorbed into your labor expense.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Well, we break it out. I mean, we don't put it into labor because it doesn't go through payroll. So like our social media.

Speaker A: Your publicist.

Speaker B: Yeah, publicist is. It's basically a 1099, you know, so that's.

Speaker A: So you contract that out. So that's a. That's a operational expense.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Um, so, uh, in terms of, like that. What, what is it that you're doing that you think, obviously the food's delicious? Uh, it's hard to not talk about the food on a restaurant business podcast, but we all, you and I, both know that the food can be delicious.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Everything else can suck.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And you won't make it.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So what is it that you're doing, aside from the delicious menu that is. Is connecting, that's hitting. That's making you drive 6 million a year in revenue?

Speaker B: Honestly, I think it's just fun. I mean, I think if you go back and I know because I was in it 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I was doing 15 course tasting menus, and it was about the cow. Where'd the cow come from? What was the cow's uncle's name? Like, you know, everybody, the story. Very specific and still important. People are very educated with food now and want to know that thing. But for me here, it's about an experience. Like I always say, we're in the reaction business. If we put down a plate of food and you don't Pull your camera. We failed. If you get a patron tree here or sit in the patron room and you don't pull out your camera, like we fail. So I think it's evolved and frankly as a chef, I'm not even sure I'm psyched about it, you know, but again, you gotta roll with it. But for here it's super fun. The drinks are delicious, the food is good. I think we're very reasonably priced and we just create an experience. It's, it's beautiful and it's fun and, and you know, target market, I mean here I could guess 25 year old woman, you know, and when we had

Speaker A: very feminine vibe in here, we had

Speaker B: citrus and salt in the back bay. Our lease was up. That's why we had to move and that's why we came here. But I remember walking to the dining room being like, there's 25 year old women here with their phones out. They're not even like eating, they're just taking pictures. You know, they're your marketing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I was like, look, when we decided when our lease was up and we had to move, give them what they want. And that's when that sort of aha, uh, moment really clicked for me. It's like, give them what they want.

Speaker A: What percentage of your revenue comes from alcohol sales?

Speaker B: We're about 40%, which is incredible. Incredible. Because obviously it's much more profitable.

Speaker A: Yeah. But, uh, I mean the times are changing. Have you seen a dip in the.

Speaker B: Across all my restaurants, alcohol sales are down. We have full mocktail menus now which, you know, is rivaling the alcohol. So again, it's changing.

Speaker A: Do you think that's going to be forever or do you think that's trendy?

Speaker B: Um, I think it's going to be here for a bit. I think the younger, uh, generation is, you know, whether they're out getting high or doing it, just there's other things that are slightly more accessible, slightly cheaper, um, ways to do it. I mean, look, if you like to drink, you're going to drink, you know, for sure. And I think that's still there. But I think money's tighter now and I think people are choosing to put their money in different places.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I hear that. I, I'm weird with that whole like alcohol thing. I, I think that alcohol, let's be honest, it could be very dangerous.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You have to be very careful with your consumption. You have to be responsible. But I think that we focus on the negative.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Of alcohol and we forget that it's that's probably why we are where we are today as a society. Yeah, I think, like, what an outlandish thing to say, but go ahead.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I just think, look, I mean, anything is worth being responsible. And if you beat it, using and abusing 100, you know, like, I as a younger chef was like I was going out five nights a week, you know, now I'm 50 years old. I mean, if I have half a white clum hungover for two days, you know, so I don't drink a whole lot anymore, but nobody loves to drink more than I do. I just, just can't afford the hangovers and the groggy the next day. So I don't really drink, you know, anymore. And I think that's, you know, younger, obviously can bounce back and I think it's different. But you know, the whole mocktail thing, uh, again, it's about evolution. If, like, if we see sales are going down with alcohol, what are we going to do to mitigate that? We compensate by now trying to increase our mocktails. So I mean, I just think you have to constantly pay attention to your guests, your sales, the business, uh, and just keep changing. And that's what I think I've become very good at is pivoting, you know. Yeah.

Speaker A: There is a fascinating book out there. If you're listening to this or if you would like, check it out. It's called how, uh, He Sips Dance and Stumbled our way into society. And it's like this, this counter argument to alcohol and why. Like, it's a fascinating book and it really kind of opens your eyes. But today we live in a world where alcohol, there's more of it than ever before and it's more potent than ever before. And we were never meant to have alcohol the way we have it today. But if you are alive today, all you know is what we have today relative to alcohol. But in the majority of our past, it was very much a ritualistic thing. It was to celebrate. And it's also what might have sparked like agriculture.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, there's also way less skus of stuff. Now there's 500 like RTDs to drink.

Speaker A: You know, you can travel, you can travel to like within five miles. Most people can go within five miles of their home and get enough alcohol to kill an elephant.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, like that's not normal. And it was never like distilled alcohol is like a yesterday invention.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: You know, relative to the big picture. So it's an interesting conversation. But it is so good with getting people to open up, to connect, to have conversation, to be like, out of their, like, they're m. Like, you know, to like, loosen up a little bit and be themselves. That can be a really powerful tool. So I want to make sure people are almost encouraged to drink alcohol, but to do it in a very responsible way.

Speaker B: I think what gone away is like the binge drinking, like going out and having 15 drinks and being hungover for two days. I think now it's. It's more responsible, ironically. And I think that's also why sales are probably decreased a little bit. I, uh, sit on the board for the bar and nightclub convention, which is like this national convention. And in liquor sales, I think if I remember correctly, we're down 9% across the country. That's a lot, you know, and. And for what reason? I'm sure it's different every demographic, but, you know, here we sell a ton of booze for sure, but we are seeing a dip, you know, but our mocktails are going up. So if you're not having alcohol, you're having something.

Speaker A: I think it's going to change.

Speaker B: I think so too.

Speaker A: Why do you think so?

Speaker B: I. I just think like, anything, it just takes its course. I mean, you, you pick any ingredient that was trendy and what's trendy now. I just think it's everything. Everything just changes.

Speaker A: You know, here's why I think it's going to change. I. I think that there is a trend. I think there's this pendulum. On one extreme side, it's. It's agency in, like, you know, like me, me, me. On the other side is community. Right? And I think there's a swing going back towards community. Right now we're realizing how important it is. And I don't think there is a better social drug than alcohol 100. And I think as we swing back into this idea of connecting with people and being around people, and we understand more about responsible drinking and like, they call it tippling. It's actually a word. Um, have you heard of the book the Third? The Third Place?

Speaker B: I have not.

Speaker A: Carl Osborne, maybe, I can't remember, but he wrote another book about, called the Tippling. He's a sociologist. Um, and it's this idea of responsible drinking and how it's actually really good for mental health and all this other stuff. We're so focused on, like, the alcohol, like, it's bad for your, like, aging and like, it's, it's poison. And we're so, like, health focused. But what about mental health and like, responsible use of something and how that can open you up to be more social like that, that there. Are we weighing that?

Speaker B: Well, I think part of it is, you know, now you can date from your phone. You know, in five, seven, eight years ago, you had to go out and meet people. And I think, I know for experience, I would go out to meet someone. If I was single, I was going out 10 times more than if I was dating because I was looking for somebody, you know? And I think now you can sit on your couch and watch TV and meet someone. And I think that, again, someone might choose to stay home, save a buck, still potentially meet someone versus going out.

Speaker A: Right. I love these conversations, but I've got to get back to the numbers and the economics of your restaurant. Um, anything else we should know about? Uh, your. Sorry. Too many restaurants running through my heads all the times. Uh, citrus and salt concept. Um, in terms of. Are you guys doing private dining? Is that a big part?

Speaker B: Yeah, we have a private patron, uh, room, which is great. It seats 12. Uh, it's on the smaller side, but it's booked out literally every single night. It's stunning. So, uh, we have all these blinged out patron bottles and mirrors and murals on the wall, and it's just really cool. And we do tons of private parties here. I mean, you know, from a lot of bachelor, uh, parties, as you could suspect. And, and just a lot of parties. We do great stuff, you know.

Speaker A: What kind of percentage would you say that private dining revenues? I know it's only 12 seats, but. Yeah, uh, private dining.

Speaker B: Right. I mean, it's. I don't know the math. I mean, it's basically two seatings a night. 12 people, 50 check average. You're talking a few thousand.

Speaker A: But are they ordering from the menu or are they doing.

Speaker B: It's all the above? Sometimes it's a custom menu, sometimes it's just a reservation of 12. Sometimes it's a business luncheon. I mean, it's different, but it's.

Speaker A: It's great.

Speaker B: And I think again, 12 seats full every night versus a 30 seat private room, half empty, I think is different. They create that sort of supply and demand.

Speaker A: Right, Right.

Speaker B: Cool.

Speaker A: Um, okay. Do you mind if we pivot and talk about. What would you say, like, the next in terms of a cash and like, business model successful. What's. What's number two?

Speaker B: Um, Ghost Light Tavern would be number two because that is very nightlife.

Speaker A: 325 seats.

Speaker B: 330 seats, yeah.

Speaker A: 330s in standing room.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah. So basically the concept is like we call it a high dive. It's like a, a dive bar kind of thing. Meets Coyote Ugly. So it's, it's more of a nightlife place. I mean, I don't want to say a club because that's a little extreme, but it, for the most part, it's club like at night. So we have, downstairs, we have full dining room, open kitchen, giant bar. And we do a lot of theater. It's right across from the box center in the, you know, the Schubert Theater. Wilbur. So we do tons and tons of theater crowd. And then upstairs on Thursday, Friday and Saturday, it turns into basically a club. And we have, you know, 200 people upstairs.

Speaker A: Are we looking at like a 6040 split alcohol food with that too?

Speaker B: No, no, no. Much, much more. I think it's, I think it's backwards. I think it's 60% alcohol, 40% food because of the nightlife. I mean, we'll, on a Saturday night, we'll do 40 grand in alcohol.

Speaker A: With the dip in the amount of consumption of alcohol. Have you seen, Was that at one point your forerunner? Is that something taking a second. Is that taking a seat back?

Speaker B: So here it's alcohol driven. I mean, I think the food comes second fiddle. I mean, it is a restaurant and people are eating. And when there's theater, it's a full restaurant. But the bread and butter is the nightlife there. So alcohol is definitely key, but it's because of the concept.

Speaker A: Got it. And what about your prime cost there?

Speaker B: Uh, prime cost there is very, very low. I think it was 48 last week.

Speaker A: You know why? Why? What's unique about the space that makes that.

Speaker B: Well, I mean, if you think about, uh, nightlife and alcohol, it's, it's, you have a few bartenders on and security guys and a few servers. I mean, you're not, other than a manager. You don't have salary employees. So the cost is great. All your fixed costs go away because you're paying your rent and your utilities regardless. And so alcohol, you know, you're operating at like 80, 90% profit. I mean, it's just you do 40 grand in alcohol and you know, your labor is not 30% because you have tipped employees, you know, so it's just, uh, it's a very high price profit business, but it comes with risk and reward. It's open till two in the morning. It's, you know, it's a nightclub. You have to have security just in case. So I mean, it's a very different animal and pretty new to sort of that but so far, so good. Yep. Yep.

Speaker A: Uh, and then I think you have, uh, one. Do you want to talk about butter in, uh, buttermilk? Bourbon.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, buttermilk and bourbon is, is a close second. The one in Boston does 4 million and the one in Watertown does 3 1/2 million. So I mean, we're pretty close behind. Same, same numbers. My business model across all my restaurants are basically the same. Like, we pick this up, put it down, it's Southern. We pick this up, put it down, it's Mexican. It's the same 19, you know, small plates, 19 item, menu item. Like just the way we do everything. It's exactly the same business, it's just different concept.

Speaker A: Cameron Mitchell. Are you familiar with Cameron Mitchell out of Columbus, Ohio? Um, he's like the, the Danny Meyer of the Midwest. Even though Danny Meyer is from the Midwest. But anyway, uh, he, he likes to say that, you know, it's the same, it's the same chassis.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Every one of my restaurants is the same chassis, same engine, same operating like fuel lines, electrical. We just put a different outside shell

Speaker B: on each one because I, I think, you know, and this is working. And you know, obviously I have had seven failed attempts, but now I have not. You know, it's been a long time now, so I sort of see what's working and it's, it's like, well, if it's working, why not just keep going with what you're going? Yeah.

Speaker A: So get more into that business model. Small plates.

Speaker B: Yeah. So 19 items, small plates. Um, we try to be. For me, it's a very big deal not to overcharge. I, it's like my biggest pet peeve when I go out and I see a 40 chicken plate, like, I know what the stuff costs. It's not necessary. I get told constantly from employees down to my wife, like, you have to raise your prices. I just don't want to, I don't want to have to charge more just because I can. We charge what we have to charge and that's it. And if costs go up, we charge more. But we don't charge more because we can. Because.

Speaker A: Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker B: Plenty of menu items that we could easily get a few more dollars a plate for, but I just don't want to.

Speaker A: What is the definition of what you have to charge?

Speaker B: Well, we cost it out. I mean, we try to run less than 30 food cost. So we, you know how I do it, which is a little unorthodox, is I take my protein, let's say you know, whatever. It's a piece of octopus. It cost you $3. I do divide it by 0.25. That's it. You know, and then the other 5% of the plate is like the fluff.

Speaker A: So you are raising your costs then?

Speaker B: If we have to, sure. We raise it because we have to. Because the math is there, not because, you know, our octopus is 14 and we could easily get 18. I'm not charging four more dollars just because you're.

Speaker A: You're raising your cost to be fiscally responsible. You're not raising your cost to gouge

Speaker B: 100% to make up for, you know, I told I should like, oh, your prices are too cheap. You go to sweet green and get a salad, that's 19 bucks. Yours is arguably better. And it's 13. You know, it's like. Because I only have to charge.

Speaker A: Right. Because you have volume. Because you figured out how to have fun. Because people are like, this space is beautiful.

Speaker B: I mean, it's.

Speaker A: I'm like, we're sitting. Yeah, we're sitting in citrus and salt. I'm not a 25 year old female, but I would love to hang out here. It's a very warm space. Um, I'm. If you do everything else right and you can get the volume, then you don't have. And people will come here because they're also, there's value on top of the good experience.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I just, again, like, we could do a million things to make more money. And we are, in a way. But we're not overcharging because we can like, you know, our alcohol is great, our sales are great, our numbers are working. At the end of the day, it's the bottom line for me. And yeah, of course I go line by line and see what I can save or, or, you know, pinch here and there. But at the end of the day, like, I want to give a good product and I don't want to be cheap. That's. That's like my biggest thing.

Speaker A: Got it. Um, so one thing that I'm interested. So we talked about your business model, um, and what's working for you. You have one concept, uh, that isn't, um, that business model. And that was. That came out with butter. Butterbird.

Speaker B: Butterbird's been open for 2024. Yep.

Speaker A: So, um, why you have something that works?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You're doing volume, you're making money, you're successful. Why break from that?

Speaker B: Because I want to test things, you know, I mean, I don't want to be a one trick pony. I want to go into other, other things. I had BNB fish, which was in Marblehead. It was a, you know, pretty traditional fried seafood place. But it was very chef driven. I mean, we were using different starches to get the clams crispier, stuff like that. So at face value as a seafood place, we were doing a lot. But at the time, we just got run out the door with seafood costs. I mean, we were. I remember when we opened, we were paying like 85 bucks a gallon for clams. And we closed. It was like 212.

Speaker A: Let's be honest to your timing. Like 2020.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, that was a weird time.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, that was a very unpredictable time. Yeah.

Speaker B: And, you know, it was, it wasn't just like, hey, I want to open a seafood place. And I'm an egomaniac. It was, you know, my, my partner had, uh, a place and he was like, hey, like, this space is great. The rent is reasonable. You know, it's in Marblehead. It's like a 45 minute drive from me. I mean, I just was like, I will do this little place. And it was great, but we couldn't afford it. I mean, we were doing lobster rolls for which we would sell 50 a night. And lobster shot up to 50 bucks a pound. It's like, you know, you either sell it and lose or you don't sell it. And it just, it was a conscious decision to close. Not because it was failing, because it, ironically, it was doing okay. We just weren't making a lot of money. And it was like all that work and effort and like, we did not see seafood going down.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know, and it's like, you can't start serving other stuff.

Speaker A: And obviously it's not all about the money. But then I, again, I, I gotta credit Rudy, Mickey, um, somebody I have a lot of respect for. Fiscal responsibility.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: If it's not making money, then we can't be fiscally responsible.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: You know, so at a certain point, you have to do what is the responsible thing to do. Um, so, yeah, I mean, what's.

Speaker B: If you're not making money, what's the point?

Speaker A: Right. You know, so, um, I mean, in this point from like now, you have your, your entrepreneur, your restaurateur hat on, and you're thinking, okay, I have this brand, I have this reputation, I have cash flow, I can invest and try different concepts. Let's try qsr. Seems like there's a cultural and industry shift going in that direction. Is that kind of where you're at? I don't know.

Speaker B: Well, I mean, no. So I have Buttermilk and Bourbon and Watertown, which does great. And the landlords are great. And they said, hey, we have the space available. Um, are you interested? We'll give you some money to. Towards the build and stuff. And I figured we're already there. It's across, basically across the street. It's, you know, low maintenance as far as running it, because we're already kind of there. And, um, it was a great thing. And I, I think our fried chicken is incredible, and I wanted to sort of share it with the world. And it was something that I think would do really well. And it does really well. You know, I mean, it's just. It's a. It's a simple concept. We do, you know, 25 grand a week. It's tiny. It's 1800 square feet, including the kitchen. And, um, it's just something I want to try and, you know, if it's working so far, but if in a few years it doesn't work, then I'll learn from it and move on and do other things. But, you know, the full service restaurants are definitely the bread and butter. But, um, I think things are evolving. I think that quick service, like you said, is, is. Is getting huge. I mean, our sales have gone up huge. You know, in the last. When we first opened, we were doing 15 grand a week, and now we're up to 25 grand a week. And I think it's because, you know, we have a good product and it's catching on. But I also think it's because people are spending less because they don't have as much money.

Speaker A: That's true too, you know. So, um, it sounds like you're at about a little over a million a year in revenue with exactly the chicken concept. Uh, Butterbird. Um, and what, what is the. I mean, in terms of your numbers there? Are you. What's your, what's your profit look like?

Speaker B: Yeah, so, I mean, it's. It's short profit. I mean, we're doing, uh, 25 grand a week. We're making about 15 grand a month. Okay. It's about a few thousand a week. But it, you know, it's. Again, I haven't. I think I have six employees there, seven employees, you know, so.

Speaker A: But it's also one of the few concepts that you could scale at low cost.

Speaker B: And at some point, I may want to do that. You know, I just. I sort of have enough on my plate. I haven't got that far mentally to decide. But, um, it's definitely scalable. And I think, to be honest, Watertown in retrospect is great, but I think the location is not sort of what I thought it was going to be like. We went into this development and, you know, kind of told it was going to be this and it ended up, you know, my opinion, kind of evolving into something not. But I think the location is fine. I think it could be a lot better. Um, so, you know, this butterbird concept, which does great, maybe would do exceptional if it was in another space. But so far so good. And at some point, you know, maybe I will evolve and open more of them. Yep.

Speaker A: Um, okay, so if you're an independent restaurant owner, building next week's schedule probably comes down to gut feeling. Guessing if Friday is going to be slow, guessing how many cooks you need, hoping you're not overstaffed and bleeding labor costs. We've all been there. That's why I've invested in Hot Shift restaurant Unstoppable community member and founder of Hot Shift. Albert wanted to stop guessing and he wanted to stop paying five different subscriptions that never speak to each other. He built Hot Shift because he needed it himself running his own restaurant. And here's the cool thing. Hot uh, Shift does not replace your manager's judgment. It feeds it. It pulls in your local event calendar, weather, even ticket sales for nearby concerts and games, and weighs that against your historical sales for that exact day alongside the eight weeks leading to it to actually project how busy you'll be. I'm telling you, Albert's a smart dude. Then it shows you the forecasted labor cost percentage before you publish anything after the shift. Hot uh, shift shows you forecast versus actual. So you're getting sharper every single shift, not just guessing. Next Monday. If you want to stop guessing and start scheduling with actual data, go to Hot Shift Dot Pro slash unstoppable. That's Hot Shift Dot Pro slash unstoppable. US Foods is more than a best in class food distributor. They are pioneers in providing industry leading tools, helpful and practical resources and high quality products with deliveries made on time and in full. One of the many benefits of being a uh, U.S. foods customer is that they deliver on the brand promise. We help you make it. US Foods knows it takes more than great food to run a kitchen today. It takes flexible, reliable deliveries. It takes consistently high quality products. It takes a best in class ordering platform. It takes more extensive research, sourcing and testing to deliver an unmatched quality portfolio of exclusive brand products. And don't forget, scoop US Foods launchpad for more quality innovations for more tools, check out Moxy US Foods all in one food service app. Like we said, it takes more in. US Foods simply does more. Restaurant unstoppable listeners can claim a free business bundle. Visit usfoods.com unstoppable and discover how US foods can help turn great ideas into real results. One thing I love to talk about, we got, um. I always like to talk about the things you're not supposed to ask a stranger. Let's talk about money. Let's talk about relationships. But the reality is that's where everybody goes wrong, because we don't talk about money and relationships, so we don't know how to go forward. So, um, in my research, I, I didn't see a lot of reference to partners. But you kept, you keep referring.

Speaker B: I have one partner.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And that's Jack.

Speaker B: Jack is, you know, 89 years old now, but so his son Billy is basically running, you know, for lack of a better term, is the partner. So Billy and I, you know, we own all these restaurants together.

Speaker A: Now, can you get into what you've learned about how to get into partnerships and what good partnerships look like?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, in my opinion, it's super simple. It's like, it's about a relationship. Relationship. It's, you know, whether it's personal or professional, it's basically the same thing. And, you know, I am honest to a fault. I pride myself on being honest, and I just can't work otherwise. So I had to make sure whoever my partner is going to be. And it's evolved, but is the same. We have the same work ethic. We have the same needs and wants. We're on the same page. We're aligned, and we're both super honest people that are trying to employ good people and have a good product.

Speaker A: Right. Um, so how is that evolved at all? Is there lessons about partnership? Like, have you evolved as a better partner over time?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think, again, a relationship, there's, there's give and take. I mean, uh, you know, I don't do every single thing I want, I am the managing partner. But I still will call and say, hey, I'm thinking about doing this. What's your $0.02? Even though I'm the managing partner and I'm, you know, I'm allowed to make the decisions, ultimately, I care about what people think. I mean, I, I, you know, not only a partner, but he's obviously a very good friend at this point. So it's important to me. And I'm, I'M a weirdly, a people pleaser. Like, I want, you know, his dad, his family invested in me when I was younger and, uh, you know, to a point, made me in the beginning and gave me this opportunity. Like, I'll never forget that. And I work really hard and I want other people to get what they deserve and I'll get it after. So I make sure, you know, employees are paid first, partners are paid, and then I'll win at the end kind of thing. So for me, this is all an investment in the future.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, do you think you could do it without a partner?

Speaker B: I think I could, but truthfully, I like it. I like to have that opinion. I mean, you can certainly ask the managers and the staff, but there's not a vested interest per se. So it's a little different when someone has money at stake. So I like having a partner. I mean, I could do it by myself.

Speaker A: Yeah. I don't think we're meant to do it alone. Yeah.

Speaker B: I just don't want to. It's not. I mean, there's been opportunity to break off and do my own thing. I mean, obviously at this point the money is there, but I just don't want to. I really enjoy our partners.

Speaker A: Something about staying in your lane.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And having a partner that you can count on. And also wins are better when celebrated with somebody.

Speaker B: Yeah. It just, it's fun. And that, that's really. At the end of the day, if it's not fun, like, why are you gonna do it? Yeah.

Speaker A: So it sounds like they. Your Jack now, Billy. Um, they're in the real estate game. Is that their business?

Speaker B: Yes, they do a lot of real estate. I mean, you know, they, they own a lot of stuff. They're, they're, they do very, very well. And they're a little bit of everything. And real estate, obviously, is an important thing. And if you own real estate, it's pretty solid.

Speaker A: Got it. Um, so do they have any other partners in the, in the restaurant space? Does it get weird?

Speaker B: Yeah, no. Uh, no, not for us. I mean, not at all. I mean, there. It's like a family. You know, their son owns, ah, an Italian place in, In Lynn and stuff. But we, you know, we've been in business together 15 years. I mean, we're. They're basically family. His family, my family. We go over for Barbara barbecues. We spend days together. So, you know, it's, it's, it's not as sort of black and white like you would think, like a business partner or firm or something. These Are like family, basically.

Speaker A: So you got Buttermilk Bourbon Group. Right. And you are a, uh, partner in that group.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And they own equity in that group.

Speaker B: Yeah. So we're like 50, 50 partners and I'm a managing member.

Speaker A: If you were to open more concepts in the future, as you, if you continue to scale, do you, Is that the goal? Like, is there a vision for you?

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, look, at the end of the day, they gave me an opportunity in the beginning. I need to pay it forward. So I'm working on a deal, opening a restaurant at Mohegan Sun.

Speaker A: Oh, cool.

Speaker B: Mohegan sun is like, it's an operating agreement. They basically, it's a licensing deal. They'll, they've run it, basically. Yeah. Um, and I don't, I don't have to involve them, but I'm going to because I just think it's, I respect the situation and I just think that's what partnerships are about, being honest and feeding each other.

Speaker A: Uh, I want to get more into the future, but before we move on from that, I'm curious, uh, to understand more. Uh, we talked about business model, we talked about partnership models. Uh, what about tech stack? Like what, like what are your systems? And uh, we, you know, get. Can you get into like, what that, like, if I were to open like the hood and look in, like, what are the systems? What are you, what do you like?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, if I'm being super honest, I'm exceptionally hands on to a fault. I feel like I'm doing everything myself and as I grow, I'm losing control in a great way. But so I've done everything myself. Like I still write every single menu, implement the menus, train the cooks, ordering guides, you know, order list, prep list, menu descriptions for the staff. I mean, I still do a lot of it. I'm doing it not as well as I was before because I'm becoming spread so thin.

Speaker A: But you're not on the line every now I'm running.

Speaker B: No, I still cook on the weekends though. You know, I still have to be better than my cooks. But it's, it's. My job is changing quickly and day by day, I mean now with a six restaurant on the way, I'm, you know, even if I was to work six day weeks, I'm only in a restaurant a day a week at this point, really, or a day and a half, you know, so it's different. You really have to trust your employees. So my, my job is evolving. Very much so.

Speaker A: I think that's good though. I Think that we live in this world right now where we're being told that like we scale, scale, scale, like we, like we're obsessed with scale. We're, we're obsessed with getting more money to, to get bigger, get bigger, get bigger. And I think when you stay small, when you stay focused and you can be in every one of your restaurants, maybe not seven days a week, but you can be visiting and getting around and hopping on the line. That presence again, uh, behind every great restaurant is a great person.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And you need to be present. You can't be in all of your restaurants every day 24, seven. That's not sustainable. But you should want to, to be in your restaurants. You shouldn't have to be trapped in your restaurants. That's not good. But if you don't want to be in your restaurants and why are you in the game?

Speaker B: I mean truthfully, that's my biggest struggle is I feel this. And I mean I woke up at 3 o' clock this morning. I started thinking about it. I just feel this immense guilt that I can't be here five days a week. Because there are things that I see, there are things that I want to do that I know I sort of can't anymore. I can't implement something and then be here for six days to make sure it's executed. I have to trust my staff. And it's again, so far so good. But I'm, I'm such hands on and me growing ironically. You know, I've never really been driven by money, which is probably something you should never say out loud. But I'm driven by loving what I do. Ambition, success for other people and money sort of comes. I think if you do the right things, the money will come.

Speaker A: But I hope so.

Speaker B: Yeah, I know that's the plan. Right. You know, I, I just, I love what I do. It just, it never gets old, you know. But I do stress, you know, that I haven't been in a restaurant in four days like that. It just freaks me out.

Speaker A: I mean I hear, I hear what you're saying and I'm tempted to go into it. I made a note, I want to come back to this because I think it's important. But get back, you said your hands on, um, and I was asking about tech stack and where like what do you, are you out there like building the systems? Are you, are you touching all the technology? Are you choosing what to use?

Speaker B: Yes. So, uh, up until about eight months ago, I, I mean I have phenomenal general managers and some of them been with me for seven, eight years. I mean, so, you know, they, at this point, they're probably better than I am. But I recently hired a director of operations because I just can't do it anymore. I can't. I'm running out of daylight. I mean, I used to, you know, get up at 9am and be in the restaurant by 10 and be home by 10. Now I'm like, I'm leaving my house at like 6:30, 7 in the morning.

Speaker A: And when did your director of operations come on?

Speaker B: Uh, eight months ago.

Speaker A: That's awesome.

Speaker B: M. Congratulations. So in. In. So far, so good. And he's really, uh, sop driven. And you know, I'm not a computer guy. Like, I'm like, let's go, we'll figure it out kind of thing.

Speaker A: There's a reason why I drive all over the country to do these interviews.

Speaker B: Exactly. And he's very focused, very analytics and you know, Excel. What's his name? His name is Rick Burnett. Rick is great. Yeah.

Speaker A: So you, uh, but you. This is eight months ago. Right. So where were you before he came on in terms of tech stack? I saw Toast out front.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, we're doing everything as far as, you know, but the systems. But it's a little bit more, um, you know, base. I mean, our ordering guides is, are my Excel sheets. My, you know, recipe is. I type them and I print them, I put them in a binder. Like, we're not super tech savvy. You know, we're evolving. But, uh, you know, we use Toast. We use triple seat. Uh, we use Bento box. I mean, we use what we have to use, you know.

Speaker A: But I gotta be honest, I think that technology can be very powerful.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Um, but at the same time, I think we're, we're like faced with like this, this like, like complex crisis.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: For lack of better terms, where it's like, it's getting too complex and it's just like, look, uh, will AI solve all of our problems? Will it make life easier? Or is the expectation for output going to just increase because we can now do more?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean, you know, like, is it to going. Go ahead.

Speaker B: For the longest time I was like the youngest person in the kitchen. I mean, I was executive chef. I was like 19 years old. Now I'm like the oldest. I'm 50, but. And I'm all about doing what makes the restaurant better. But I'm like old school. I like printed tickets in the kitchen. You know, like, Toast wants that kitchen, uh, screen. I'VE never used one. I have no interest one. But my new restaurant, I'm like, we're gonna put one in because I'm gonna force myself to.

Speaker A: There is something to say be said about getting out of your comfort zone.

Speaker B: Yeah. And then. And I. I'm good at that. I'm pushing myself, so. But I'm like old school. It's like I do it myself. You know, I would. When you walked in, I was ordering silverware for one of the restaurants. Like I'm still doing that because it's a control thing because it's money and I want to make sure we get the right stuff. But I need to learn to relinquish control. That is my biggest struggle right now is scaling because I've done everything myself. Yeah.

Speaker A: What about reservations? What do you.

Speaker B: So we use open table. Yeah, open table. Reservations for catering and stuff. Yeah, and open table. Uh, like I said, bento box. Um, you know, I mean payroll companies, all that stuff. Web restaurant for our small wares. Everything. But as far as like systems, I mean it's really toast and open table.

Speaker A: Got it. Um, and since your director of operations, Rick came on, has he changed anything?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, like I said, I have insane add. Like if you, you know, you said. Have you read this book? I think the last book I read was Chocolate Fever in third grade. Like I can't read. I just, I'll read seven pages. Forget M right there.

Speaker A: Audiobooks is where it's at.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, no, that's what I hear. My attention span is horrific. And it's mostly because I have so much on my plate. Like I can't even remember family members names. I mean it's horrible. But he is very hyper focused, you know, on the systems. If I get an email that's two pages, I'm like, I can't read this. It's two pages, you know. So he's really good at giving me the bullet points, knowing my personality and what I need. You know, I was just on vacation. I just got back two days ago and he sent me a recap of what has gone on in the last week. And it was like bullet points clean. You know, cut out all the banter.

Speaker A: My life.

Speaker B: I was like, dude, this is the best thing I have ever received because he just gave me what I need to know and you know, eliminate all this stuff. So. But he's great, but he's very focused on SOPs and systems and I'm m. I'm just, I'm honestly, I'm not great at that. And that's why I hired him, because I, I have to plug in the holes with what I know I'm not good at. And that's the thing is I'm, I'm humble enough to know what I'm good at, and I'm humble enough to know what I'm not.

Speaker A: Back to this idea of partnerships. You can't do it alone. Like, we are tribal species.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: We are meant to be in a pack. We are pack animals. And that pack is only strong when the pack is together. If you take a human and you put them into the wilderness by themselves 10,000 years ago, even with all their survival skills, not a good shot. Yeah, uh, at survival because you still got lions, you still got bears. You know, like, we are meant to go further together. Uh, but also at the same time, I think that there's something to be said about, um, the diversity in, in having small hunter gatherer bands where there's a lot of us and, but we're all in our little pockets, you know, like, the flip side of going further together is, oh, we should all homogenize and, you know, be under one umbrella. The. We should be the United States of Google.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Is that good? Yeah. I don't know.

Speaker B: I mean, I just. Look, you got to know what you're not good at and like, that's what I'm great. I, I know what I'm not good at. I. Right. Like, you know, if I ever had to stop cooking, what would I do? I would be screwed. You know, So I just, I know my weaknesses and I, I make sure I put the right people in the right places to compensate for what I'm not good at.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And he's very, very good. Very organized, very structured. Like, and I'm not, I'm just like, uh, ah, we'll figure it out. I'll write the menu, I'll do it myself. I'll order the silverware, I'll order the last on Amazon, but next thing you know, you just worked a 20 hour day, you know, so he's taken a lot off my plate as far as systems and keeping everybody accountable because it's, it's tough.

Speaker A: So we talked about business models, we talked about, um, partnership models. Uh, we talked about, um, your tech stack and what you're using, what you're, what you're going to, um, if you can't tell what I'm looking for is recommendation. This is exploit. This is a huge exploratory. Just like I'm look, I'm looking for hints and clues um, one thing I'm becoming more and more convinced of this idea of partnership and going further together is having specialists in our network. What, um, do you contract out? Are there people you hire? Like, are you in designing every restaurant? Like, is this, this is a beautiful restaurant. Did you design it?

Speaker B: I mean, I have a designer, so I have, like, you know, my core team. Like, I've opened, you know, six restaurants. I've used the same designer, I've used different contractors, but the same designer. Because we work very well together. It's that partnership. She is super creative and. But I also know what I want. Like, did I pick a flamingo mural? No, I didn't pick that. She was like, we should do it. But I knew I wanted a mural and I knew, you know, there's certain things. So as the owner, I get what I want. I say, here's my money. This is what I want. Here's my vision. And she's tremendous at executing it. And we know each other well now, so it's, it's, it's great.

Speaker A: So what's her name?

Speaker B: Uh, Erica Diskin, and she's the owner of Assembly Design.

Speaker A: Got it. What about, uh, like, kitchen design, Build outs, construction.

Speaker B: So to be honest, I sort of design all the kitchens myself. But, you know, this space, there was already a kitchen, so other than some tweaks and some new equipment. But if, like, uh, the Burlington location that we're in construction with, that's like a full thing. So we use Trimark, uh, to do the kitchen design. And, you know, it's a good deal. They sort of do the design for free. You buy your equipment and you're buying your equipment anyways.

Speaker A: Any other coaches, consultants, specialists that, that you work with to coach or.

Speaker B: No, that's about it. Yeah.

Speaker A: Gotcha.

Speaker B: So about it.

Speaker A: Um, all right, let's talk about the future. Um, we've gone to where we are today. Um, what's the vision? What's. If you're closing your eyes and you're looking to the future, where do you want to go?

Speaker B: Um, what I would like to do is get myself stable enough to enjoy it a little bit. I have been growing and growing in, in the most responsible way. But I. My ambition is my biggest weakness because I, you know, I wrote my first cookbook and boy, did that suck. I mean, I didn't realize how involved it was, how long it was going to take, how much attention and detail you need, you know, and for my personality, it's, it's not great. And then I forgot, you know, it did very, very well. So well that they offered me another book. And I was like, uh, it wasn't so bad. And then I got the second book and I'm like, God, I forgot how bad this sucks. You know, did it. And then, you know, a couple years go by, I wasn't so bad. Wrote a third book, you know, and it's the same with restaurants. It's like, I love opening restaurants and when they're open, I'm like, ah, uh, you know, I like the creative part. Um, and so I want to start enjoying it. I keep taking all my money and rolling it into the next thing. So I want to kind of sit back and enjoy what I have. So, you know, I am working on other deals and I'll never say no, because again, my ambition gets the best of me. But I would like to sort of stabilize after this next restaurant and just enjoy it a little bit.

Speaker A: This next restaurant being your second.

Speaker B: Second. Citrus and salt.

Speaker A: Yeah. There is one partnership we haven't talked about that I know. Um, I'm aware of. U.S. foods.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, why U.S. foods?

Speaker B: I'll tell you the truth, I am pretty loyal when it comes to companies, but there are certain things I require and as soon as that's broken, it's. They're dead to me. And you know, for them it may not even be important, but for, to me it's important. I will say, as a whole, US Foods has been great, great. But our sales rep is the best sales rep I have ever had in my 30 year career.

Speaker A: What makes them the best?

Speaker B: Because he's not salesy. I cannot. There's nothing I hate more than the smell of a used car salesman. Like, I can smell it. I can taste it. The. Oh, I watched you on TV last night. You're great. You want to buy some chicken? Like, you know, I just don't. I don't do well with that. He used to be a chef. He, he just. It's like, no, it's like, tell me the truth. If you're going to charge X, that's fine. I respect the business. But don't sugarcoat shit. Don't lie to me. Just give it to me straight. And he is fantastic. He's the best sales rep I've ever had. He will come to the restaurant and just check to make sure the orders came in right. If there's something wrong, he'll personally fix it. He'll reach out to me. He knows I don't really buy into the whole ecosystem of, oh, we're having a food show. In Salem. Come try our fight. Fried jalapeno poppers. Like, he knows I'm not interested in that. So he'll, he'll, you know, feed me the stuff that I need and, and eliminate the stuff I'm not interested in. And he's just a good, honest dude. He'll tell me, he'll say, look, chicken's going up. It's going to be high for three months. We're going to do our best. Like, I appreciate the communication and honesty, transparency.

Speaker A: I mean, I'll give you the relationship 100.

Speaker B: I just. I had a produce company, which I won't name, but I've used them for the last eight years. I spent $1.4 million with them last year. I've never gotten a thank you. I've never gotten a hey, you're opening a new restaurant. We'll send you a free case of avocados. Or, hey, we'll come to the opening. It's. It was just nothing. And I was just like, I'm spending all this money. I'm not asking for thanks, but, you know, we're spending a ton of money. If you have a million dollar customer, might be nice to check in once a year. I haven't spoke to the owner in four years.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And I just. The produce was coming in crappy and I just, I gave them opportunities to fix it. I told them what I needed. Needed. We get a rebate check from them. I have to hunt it down all the time. I have to beg for it. I have to follow, and I'm just sick of it. I spend all this money, I just want what I want, and I jump ship overnight and. And I got a, hey, sorry it didn't work out. Like, if I lost a million dollars, I would be like, why didn't this work out? What did we do wrong? How can we fix it? How can we be better? Can we get you back? It was like, oh, uh, sorry it didn't work out. It still blows me away, you know, Trimark. I mean, I'm sorry, US food. I, you know, I met with our rep yesterday. I said, look, man, we sell a lot of chicken. We sell 1500 pounds of chicken a week. And it went up, you know, it's. It's gone up, uh, quite a bit in the last few months. He's like, look, this. I'll show you our cost. This is what we're charging you. Like, we're.

Speaker A: That transparency needs to be better. I think we could be better as an industry doing that with our customers. Like, oh, this is more expensive. Okay, well, here's a little book.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And here's how much money.

Speaker B: And that's what I. And when I say I'm honest to a fault, I. I'm honest. I. If I can charge you. If I can't charge you what I need to. We have to. To, you know, and if. But I'm not.

Speaker A: We're in this with you 100%. Yeah. This sucks. You're right. Yeah, Tell me about it.

Speaker B: You know, and he was like, look, I mean, you're using Heinz ketchup. It's gone up 25 bucks a case. If you use our brand, you can save 20 bucks a case. You know, should we. I don't know. Let's get a case. We'll try the flavor and we'll see. So, I mean, he's always offering options to be better, and that's what I like.

Speaker A: Yeah. So what I'm hearing the big things. It's the sales rep. And this is the. I've been to multiple US Foods, uh, events now. I went to their event in, uh, Las Vegas. I went to a, like a food show in D.C. and I've done crowd work for them where I just talk to the people on the floor and I'm like, why? Why U.S. foods? And it's always time and time again. It's the reps. Yeah. It feels like a partnership, but not

Speaker B: to dismiss the company because a company creates a culture. So, I mean, it's not to say the rep is great in the company's. Whatever. It's not. It comes from the top.

Speaker A: Service, though. Yeah. But at the same time, like, you go to a restaurant and what do people say? The service. Service. The. The. The people don't go. I think people think they go to food for restaurants, but I think at the end of the day, what brings them back is how they are made

Speaker B: to be real million.

Speaker A: And that's the people.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, and you're a rep. You know, like, they make you feel like he's listening to you, that he sees you. He knows what you want. He, um, is. He's exceeding expectations, just like a great server would like. And like, if you feel like something you're about to do is going to be a huge, like, inconvenience to you, then do it. Because the person receiving that is going to be like, wow, I can't believe you went out of your way.

Speaker B: I mean, don't over promise under the produce. You know, I mean, say the other exceed expectations. You look like a hero.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, uh, Those are all great things. I do know US Foods has rolled out a few new initiatives. Um, they're rolling out new technology. They have their, Their Moxie app, their. They have their pronto service. Are you leveraging any of those new things?

Speaker B: I mean, we use it. If I'm being honest, I'm not super hip on it. I mean, we, we do use both. And I actually just reached out to them this morning and they're gonna possibly do menus for us. I didn't even know they offered menus. We want custom menus, they do it. So I'm gonna try to utilize them. But they've been great partners. And again, he'll educate us. He'll say, look, we have this new app. It's probably easier for you. I use it all the time now, you know, but he'll. He'll say, look, we have this. I know you're not gonna be interested, but I just want to tell you anyways. And he's right, you know, so he. We know each other well. And again, it's at this little ecosystem, we know it works.

Speaker A: And to your point, the culture, uh, that culture, it ripples throughout the, that organization because the folks that I'm dealing with on a day to day, on their, Their back end, their marketing, uh, their promotions teams, their. Their. I don't know, just. I think it's generally just their marketing team that I'm talking to. Um, they've been so phenomenal to me, and then they're introducing me to people like you. They have not disappointed once with the connections they made. So, uh, And I've. They're great partners.

Speaker B: That other big company, that's their rival. And it was like, just salesy. It's like, oh, we'll save you 10 bucks on plastic wrap. But then your shrimp goes up. It's like, either way, you're getting your money being dishonest. And I just can't. I can't handle dishonesty. Like, once there's a. I smell dishonesty, I'm out, right? And you know, he's honest and he's. I've never had an issue and I've baited him. I baited him into being dishonest or telling me something I want to hear and he doesn't. And I love. I hate people that kiss my ass. I hate it. And he does not. And I just. We have a great relationship. Relationship.

Speaker A: Well, thank you for sharing all that. The, uh, last thing you said before we, we went down that rabbit hole, which was a fun one. Uh, ambition um, is your biggest weakness. I can relate with that one. You're a visionary, man. I can tell. You're creative. You live in the clouds like you're dreaming every day.

Speaker B: And that's where I want to stay, you know, And I just have to balance it with all the. Like I said, I love opening restaurants. And once they're open, I'm like, ah, ah. I just wish I could open a restaurant a day kind of thing. That's like, my passion is creating. You know, it's the mundane Excel sheets, paperwork, the HR call with the Paylocity, you know, company, that stuff. Like, it has to be done. But I don't love it. I love creating.

Speaker A: But you also said, do you want to start enjoying it?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So what does that look like? How, how would your life have to change for you to enjoy it?

Speaker B: I have to relinquish control, and I have to try. And I do trust. I don't want to. That sounds negative if I say don't trust staff, because I definitely do. Um, obviously I have to. And I want to, but I want to. You know, my ops manager, Rick, he said, why are you still doing the Amazon orders for like, Elastics and Paperclips and. Because I know what stuff costs and I know if someone submits an order, we might be able to get it cheaper here.

Speaker A: And I see that's where AI can be huge. Because AI can do that and it can, it can look at your backlogs and it can look for patterns, and that's where it's really.

Speaker B: And that's what he's doing for me now. We're creating, you know, systems where. Creating an opening list. That way, you know, managers know this is the silverware that you're getting. This is the only place you get your toothpicks from or whatever the case, you know, um, I'm starting to dive

Speaker A: more into the AI. Uh, Clear Cogs is an organization that recently was referred to me by, uh, Rudy. Mick, his name's coming up twice. Uh, but I think, you know, that's what they, I think they have the software running in the background and they're basically, it's tracking everything. So if there is, uh, an anomaly, you're. You're in your, you know, new hire general manager doesn't have the, the, the subconscious data in there that they can be flat.

Speaker B: Yeah, and that's the thing. I'm not. I mean, I'm pretty good with technology, but I'm not so forward thinking that I'm like, like Clear Cogs. I'm literally going to look that up

Speaker A: as soon as we're done, introduce you to Matt.

Speaker B: Because if that's something that will help me a hundred percent, I mean, I'm open to it. It's just, you know what you know

Speaker A: and you don't know another one, you do the private dining, um, that just got referred to me by Jack Gibbons out of Dallas. Uh, front burner society. I don't know if you know Jack Gibbons, but, um, he was, he referred to me, um, hermetic AI and they developed this agent Maya, or, sorry, Mia, Correct, this agent Mia. And what Mia does is for private dining, she basically. This agent, I guess it's. She um, is basically paying attention to new leads that come in for private dining. And within seconds she responds, she finds out, you know, what the requests are, that she makes recommendations for like, menus. And like instantly where private dining goes wrong is that, uh, if you're not, if your private dining person isn't on it, that, you know, 100. That secretary is just trying to check a box.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And they're gonna go to the first person that responds to them. So they're within seconds 24, seven weekends, nights, it's. They're receiving requests.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And then confirming information and then handing it off to the human. And these little things I think are. AI is going to help us be very transparent. It's also going to make things go fast. So we can go with the first person that we want to work with, you know.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: It's really interesting times.

Speaker B: No, I agree with you 100%. That's. We've just recently hired, uh, a catering and event manager. And you know, I see the times and it's like we were having the managers do it in house and they were doing great, but they're managers, they're on the floor. They may not respond until the next morning. And now she responds in seven, seven minutes. You know, and I agree. I mean, my wife is in sales. She's a farmer rep, and she does a ton of catering for her doctors and luncheons. And you know how that world works. And it's the same thing. It's like, you know, we're opening this new restaurant, we're building this restaurant around some of her recommendations because she spends a ton of money through pharma with these restaurants. And I'm learning like, oh, if we did this, we might be able to go after that. So the, the response time is incredible because she'll say, she'll literally go. She has a luncheon. And if the first Person doesn't answer, she'll go right to the second person because she needs it done, you know, so we're very conscious of that stuff now.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So if you were to close your eyes and think about the future, how many restaurants do you want to own? The perfect world?

Speaker B: 3, 400? No, I mean, I, you know, I, I think a couple more, I think. And, and I'd like to stop, but again, I, I can't even give you.

Speaker A: I'll put you at eight restaurants.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I said after four. My wife just made fun of me. She's like, you said you'll never open another restaurant. I'm like, ah, just kidding, you know?

Speaker A: You know, and I think there's truth to this idea of if, when you, when you grow, you create opportunity for others, right? And, uh, when you grow, when your plate starts overflowing, then that means there's more for others, right? And you know that your place overflowing and you know the asparagus is falling off your plate, but you don't like asparagus, so you're gonna give Rick, uh, the asparagus guess. Because Rick loves.

Speaker B: Tell you exactly what you're saying in real, real time. So I have an employee, Doug. He basically helps me oversee my kitchens. Uh, he's been with me for 12 years. He started, he was from El Salvador. He started as an oyster shucker. Now he's making, you know, great money and runs the restaurants. I'm giving him, uh, a small equity share in this new restaurant because he deserves it, you know, and then my beverage director and general manager here gets an equity share because they deserve it. They're working hard, they're running this. They're really the, they're better at this than I am at this point. And I need them and they need me. And it's a great little ecosystem, but I just want to reward that. I mean, it's been with me for a decade.

Speaker A: And if you really want to create opportunity for people and provide security to people, and you hear all these restaurateurs, like, spouting this information like it's about, we need to scale so we can create more jobs and opportunity and security. But the real security, if somebody really is going to have security, security, they're gonna have an asset.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: That's the only way to truly have. So I've been playing around with this, this slogan. Fewer restaurants, more owners is what the industry needs. Do you agree or disagree?

Speaker B: 100 agree.

Speaker A: Um, so when I say that, what do you think?

Speaker B: I. I mean, I'LL tell you that the hardest part of this business is the people. You know, you get good people, you hold on to them, and you do whatever it takes to keep them. And then, you know, what I try to do when I hire people, I think a lot of businesses will say, what can you do for this business? What can you do for me? What I maybe can do for you? Like, I'm gonna give you a better life. I'm gonna have you work less than your last job. Maybe you're gonna make more than your last job. Like, I think that stuff is important. I think it has legs. I mean, you treat someone well, give them a good life, not overwork them and make them happy. They're gonna work for you much longer than you trying to save a buck an hour, and they're gonna go the next job for a dollar. And that's the thing. Uh, we pay very, very well here. I mean, my dishwashers make well over 20 bucks an hour here, you know, and because I want their. It's the hardest job in the kitchen. I want them to stay forever. It's training and implementing and. And frankly, just a pain in the ass dealing with this. It's such a. Restaurants are such a revolving door people that I have such a good core group of people here. I mean, I can't believe how long some of these people have worked for me. I mean, it's insane.

Speaker A: You know, one thing we didn't talk about, and I meant to talk about it, um, I noticed recently you kind of dialed back. You pull back from the. The appearances on television. Um, did you go back to television because you knew that it, you know, it helped you kind of with that first claim to fame, and you. You were able to have all this success until you kind of believed it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But then you realized there was something to be said about those appearances. It does drive traffic.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Do you think that that has anything to do with your success in these restaurants?

Speaker B: 100%. I mean, it's. It's a national stage. I mean, you know, being on Hell's Kitchen as a kid contestant got me, you know, X. Being on Hell's Kitchen as the sous chef next to Gordon Ramsay was exponentially bigger. You know, being the chef on Bar Rescue was great. Now hosting Bar Rescue, it just goes up.

Speaker A: You're hosting bars?

Speaker B: I started hosting, yeah.

Speaker A: Oh, really? How did I not know that?

Speaker B: It's crazy. But so John Taffer, I mean, the. The thing with bar rescues is, is incredibly successful show and, uh, you know, normal, like, uh, TV shows will have 15 episodes. Bar Rescue. Sometimes the network will order 40 episodes. It's one week per episode. That means John Taffer's on the road for 40 weeks a year. I mean, that's insane. And he just, you know, he doesn't want to be it. So he's passed the torch a little bit to me.

Speaker A: So that's a lot, you know, as somebody who literally was living on the road three or four months at a time in a truck camper, uh, doing six to eight interviews a week, all journalistic, all word of mouth, only having one or two leads in a city, but letting that city tell me who I need to. To make an example of. Not the publicist, not social media, not the person looking to promote them. Exactly. That's hard. Yeah, that's really hard. I'm forcing myself to go from two episodes a week to one episode a week because I like you. Ambition is my biggest weakness. Um, it's hard to do all those things. You can't do it alone.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, when I was filming, you know, Hell's Kitchen, it's. It's three months. You basically leave. I. You know, when we filmed, ah, I think it was season 18 and 19, I was in Vegas. I lived at Bally's for three months, you know, and I was married at the time. I would. My wife would fly out.

Speaker A: How'd that go?

Speaker B: I mean, it wasn't great. I mean, you know, how do you say to your wife, hey, I'll see in three months? I mean, it's brutal. I flew her out every other weekend, and Caesar's was a partner, so we got to go out for dinner all the time and see other shows for free. But I now have a child. You know, it's like, my daughter, uh, is three and a half years old. She'll be four, actually. Older. She'll be four in August, you know, I leave for work, she's upset. How do I. I can't possibly say, hey, I'll see in three months. Like, I just can't. So. I miss Hell's Kitchen tremendously. It was a great platform, but I just can't. It's like, I can't leave for three months. I can't leave my wife and say, good luck with the kid, solo mom, deal with the house, the dogs. I'll see in three months, I'm going to go off to be famous. Like, I just can't do that.

Speaker A: Everything you say yes to is something you have to say no to.

Speaker B: So. But bar rescue, I still do, because bar rescue is A week at a time. Time. Maybe two weeks at a time. So it works perfectly for me. I love working on it. I do miss Hell's Kitchen, uh, you know, Ms. Gordon. And it's great. And maybe someday I'll circle back when she's older, if the show's still on.

Speaker A: But how's this project going? Over the pond.

Speaker B: Over the. It's. I mean, it's incredible, the amount. It's funny that started watching it. Yeah, we. I mean, we had talked about it well before when he was, you know, working on it, and it's insane amount of money, but, uh, it's incredible. And that documentary was incredible.

Speaker A: Yeah. But what's the name of that documentary? I can't recall.

Speaker B: I just finished it.

Speaker A: I didn't. I didn't finish it. I only started watching the beginning of it. And he shows a different side of himself.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Not the television.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I could tell you family m some crazy. I mean, I'd like to get that in at some point, this story that he did for me and my wife, but, you know, get it in. Yeah. So, uh, I'll tell you. When we were filming during COVID um, there's four of us on camera. There's Gordon, myself, uh, Christina, who's the sous chef in the red kitchen, and Marino, who's the maitre d of the show. There's only four of us on camera. It's a million dollars a day to film that show. One of us got Covid. It is very expensive because you can't film for whatever, 12 days. So we were in an insane bubble. I had to wear, like, basically, like, a beekeeper's outfit. I had a mask on, a shield I had, you know. And normally you film for a month, then you have a week off while they're resetting the stage for the next season. You filmed two seasons back to back. You get to go home for a week. But because of COVID they wouldn't allow us to go home. My wife at the time was pregnant. We were filming in Burbank, California, and he was like, fuck that. Like, you can't see your pregnant wife. Fuck the producers. Fuck the network. He was like, come home with me. He had him, and I boarded his jet. He flew me to Boston so I could be with my wife. Went back, snuck back into the hotel and filmed the next morning. But he was like. Like that. You're not going to see your wife that's pregnant. I'll fix that.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, it's crazy. It kind of reminds me of Anthony Bourdain, I think that's one of the things that made him so successful. But he was so well known and so loved. Like he, anything he touched, you know, like, would turn to gold because of the, the wave, the ocean of followers that he had, you know, that like he could just tell networks to go pound sand.

Speaker B: He does.

Speaker A: And he. Yeah. You know, and like, and they couldn't do anything about it.

Speaker B: The one thing about Gordon, I will say, say is, you know, you're around greatness when you're around him. The way he operates. Our call time sometimes would be at 5 in the morning, he would come in at a 10. And you have to match that energy and you're filming 16 hours a day. Like you have to stand next to him, make him look good, make the show look good and just operate at that level. I, I just don't understand. I mean he's, he's uh, exactly 60 years old and he is just fit. He's big, he has a presence and he's just unbelievable. And he makes every single person in that room feel special. And that's one thing that I, I'm not great at.

Speaker A: And it sucks that the television doesn't show that. Yes, because that's the fucking part that.

Speaker B: Cuz that's the premise of the show. Right. Look, I mean you're, you're getting a real, it's $250,000 prize. You're gonna get a real job for a real chef with a real salary. And we basically have three weeks to figure that out. We're not fucking around like, yeah, you

Speaker A: know, this is part of the thing, you know, we're getting to the part of the conversation where we're talking about the, the future. We're close to wrapping up by the way. You've been very patient. Thank you for, for. It's a long show, you know, but there's so much stuff to talk about. Um, the future when we talk. You know, I, I look at like social media right now and I think I see what's happening on these networks starting to spill into the world of um, it's all about advertising, marketing. Like when I started this podcast and I was like, oh, this is great, I'll be able to get sponsors and like, they'll support my mission and like it's all about just trying to, you know, hey, in exchange for you supporting my mission, uh, I'll run some ads, you know, and the reality is now like more and more money is getting into this, this media and social media and what you see Online. And once you know how it works, like, this is all garbage. Yeah, it's all garbage. I know that's. I know that's. And we can't. There's no sense of reality today.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: On, um, online, with podcasts. And I'm struggling, man, with it, because, like, I'm so. I so want to do journalistic, transparent work. I'm so grateful for US Foods because they are actually elevating my show. They're not pulling from it. They're saying, let me introduce you right to the amazing operators. And it's a, uh, true win, win. But I can't do what I do for US Foods, for everybody I work with, because then I no longer have a show.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: You know, and that's where I'm at with this podcast right now. We're like, I'm turning sponsors away because I don't believe in them. And, you know, I don't need to tell you this.

Speaker B: I mean, that's the thing, you know, again, when I first started doing tv, it was about the talent. Just the talent. What can you do for the show? What can you add? Now they want you to already have a million followers before you do a show. I mean, there. It's all about that. Social media has changed everything, and I'm.

Speaker A: For the better or the worse?

Speaker B: I think a little bit of both. You know, I am, um, much more the person that lives in the present. Like, my wife will always say, you never take pictures. You're never. I don't.

Speaker A: That was one thing I liked about you, your social media. Like, you have great, like, numbers, but, like, once of every quarter, like, you might post something.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I was like, I like this guy.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I don't personally my. You know, my social media will post the restaurant stuff, and I post personal stuff that's important to me, but I just like being in the moment. I'm not the guy that whips out my camera at a concert. I just enjoy it where a lot of people now, it's about getting that picture, being on the gram that. That. And I just find it to be so fake. And I just. I'm not fake. And I. I'm unapologetically myself, and I'm just not the guy that's like, well, getting that perfect.

Speaker A: You give me inspiration, because I feel like I resonate a lot with what you're sharing. And for people like us who just want to be present. I just traveled, like, literally three years. I spent. I don't know, I think I put, like, close to 100,000 miles on my truck, traveling all over the country. Um, and if you looked at my social media, you wouldn't know.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: It's because I was doing the dance damn thing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, I didn't, I was, I was. Only reason I was living that lifestyle was so I could do honest work.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What I didn't care about creating the image.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Of this, this life on the road and how amazing it is. I'll tell you the truth. It sucks. Yeah, it was hard, dude. I had hard times on the road. It's hard to be alone for a long period of time.

Speaker B: It's. It's funny you said it because that's what I. It's so lonely doing tv. It's because it's so.

Speaker A: You see people.

Speaker B: I saw amazing people every day make great friends along. But it's.

Speaker A: You don't have that anchor though. We need consistent relationships in our lives.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I just, I. I'm like not fake man. I just. I can't fake it. I'm. I don't. That's why I turn a lot of down because I just. It's not me. I'm not interested. I don't. It's not something I feel like an obligation to share or not share. And sometimes I do, you know, and it depends and I just like this is great. I'm um, being honest. You're honest. I don't. You're not salesy. You're not like this personality, you know, I enjoy that. I just either love me or hate me. And if you hate me, that's cool too. But this is me and I'm not going to change just because I should, you know.

Speaker A: What's. Anything we haven't discussed that. You want to get out?

Speaker B: No, I mean, I feel like we've sort of hit everything, you know, I mean I just, it's like I love what I do. I'm just as passionate today as when I walked out of culinary school. And I'm. I appreciate that. I'm forward thinking but I still have my roots in like my old school about giving great food, great hospitality. Hospitality and employing good people. I mean I'm nothing without these people. I would crumble. I wouldn't even make it a day if I didn't have the great staff around me. And I know that. And I. And you know, and that's why I think a lot of owners are, you know, it's like a dictatorship and they're the dictator. For me this is like a democracy and it's like, look, we're all in it together. We're all trying to make money and enjoy life, and let's give a good product and we hope for the best. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, man, I've really enjoyed the conversation. Um, I'm. I'm tempted to keep going, but I want to respect our time. I am curious if you had a. If you're evolving or changing anything about you or your business for the future. Like, what is your prediction for the future? Uh, you know that. That's the show. How did you get here? Where are you today? Where are we going? So where are we going?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I would like to open this next restaurant. Uh, I'm gonna settle down with the books and appearances for a little bit and just spend time with my family. I mean, I get asked all the time, where do you like doing on your days off? I like just being home. You know, I'm like leaving my house at 6:30. There's sometimes I go through two, three days without seeing my daughter because I'm gone before she wakes up and she's asleep before I get home. And I just want to enjoy it and I want to pass the torch a little more. I need to figure out a way to relinquish the control and trust the process. And I'm working very hard on it because my anxiety, my guilt is what makes me not love what I do. And I. It's all self. I do it to myself, you know, it's not real. I'm just creating this problem that's not there. And I need to just trust the people more and, and hand the baton and not order the elastics. I have to think bigger, you know, versus this small time. Oh, I have to go check this taco because we got a, uh, someone said it was dry last night, so I'm here to check a taco. I should trust people to do that. But. And it's not. It's not even that I don't trust people. It's just I need to do it myself to feel good. Yeah. You know?

Speaker A: Well, um, I think you're on the right track, man. I think that creating opportunities for others, not just jobs, but security, giving equity assets. Obviously we don't give every a piece of our business to everyone we touch. But there are key players that are going to go get it somewhere.

Speaker B: The bigger you grow, the more you have to share. And that's what I do. The more I give back to the community. Like, um, I'm, you know, this new restaurant is in Burlington. I live in Burlington. Like I Already signed up for a bunch of events that I would in a million years have said no to. But it's my home, it's my community. And I just, I want to get into that stuff a little bit more.

Speaker A: And where you are is institution. Yeah, you're becoming an institution. Institution. And I think we need more institutions. And I think of institutions, they're not just like transactional jobs. They, they create. They. They literally develop people and communities. They make communities stronger, better. Uh, and we don't have enough institutions. I think re Weisewag Zingerman's Delicatessen Institution. You know, the, the Union Square hospitalities institutions. Uh, we need more institutions. We need fewer. Just like, get big fast, get rich fast.

Speaker B: I just think we need more honesty. I mean, look, uh, you know, I, uh, know at some point some of these restaurants are going to close. I just keep. I keep kicking the can down the road, you know, and I just. Some might close. More might open. Hopefully more open than closed. But, you know, you're just a fool to think that you have this thing and it's never going to change. It has to change. Good or bad or ugly, it's going to change. And you have to just adapt and keep pushing.

Speaker A: Yeah. A couple of questions I ask to wrap up every conversation. Uh, what is one thing about your business? A value, a process, a system that's truly uncommon. It makes you unstoppable.

Speaker B: Um, that I hire good people over experience. I. I think good, honest people that have good work ethic, I'd rather teach them. You can't teach someone to be a good person. And so I'm not saying that's super unique, but I will often hire people that are not even close to being ready for this job, but they're just, just such good people that we make it happen.

Speaker A: I think you can teach it, but I think it's a lot harder to teach people how to do things rather than who to be.

Speaker B: But it's risk, reward. And I think the risk at, uh, hiring, you know, people that are polished or jaded, that know what they're doing, sometimes it doesn't work out. Yeah.

Speaker A: The mission statement is to change the world through inspiring, empowering, and transforming the restaurant industry. We do that by making an example of people like you. But how have you personally transformed. How are you a better man today than the man you were when you got started?

Speaker B: Started? I have, uh, been beat up, chewed up, spit out. And I think my humility is what makes me successful. Because as a young hotshot chef that thought it Ruled the world and it was on TV and was in private jets and all this crazy stuff. It's not even about that. It's about community. It's about family. Like, I never really thought I wanted to be a dad. You know, it was obviously planned, but I. Being a dad is the greatest gift of my life. And it's like, I thought, I love restaurants. Like, I would often, I would put the restaurants first every time. You know, I'm starting to, like, realize that that's not. It's. It's a factor to get me where I want to be. But I love my family. I love being a dad. And I just. I want. I'm seeing that other people have families, and I'm making sure I'm not overworking. I used to require, you know, I used to work 90 hours a week. Nobody works for me more than 55 hours tops, because I just don't want to overwork people. I want people to enjoy their life. And for so long, all I did was work. And I want to start enjoying the life right now.

Speaker A: I love it, man. Great stuff. Um, if you got the news you'd be leaving this world tomorrow, all the memories of you, your work, and your restaurants would be gone with your departure. You're not necessarily dying. Maybe the aliens got you and you're never coming back. Uh, what are three pieces of wisdom that you could leave behind for the good of humanity and your legacy?

Speaker B: Well, for one, I'd be psyched to rest. Yeah. Because that's, that's my only complaint in life, is I'm habitually tired. But I would say, uh, be good, be honest, and be authentic. I love it.

Speaker A: Uh, and this last question is how I find all my future guests. Uh, this is a word of mouth podcast. This is referral based. So who do you respect and admire in the industry? Somebody that you know who's doing it right. Somebody that you try to show up and be a little bit more like. Like, they inspire you to be better. Who's that person? Who do I need to make an example of?

Speaker B: So, uh, there's a chef in the city, Ken Oranger. He owns Toro, Copa Fosse, a little donkey. He is a friend. We, uh, were friends, uh, you know, really close, long time ago. What he does is so great to me because he really empowers his people and does these concepts. And I just think he's a genius when it comes to food. And he's something that. He's always inspired me. I mean, we. For 20 years, he's always inspired Me. And I think he's really important. And I think, um, as far as, ah, other people in the industry, I think, uh, Jamie Bissonette, who owns a bunch of restaurants, um, he's just, he's. He reminds me. He actually used to work for me. He was one of my sous chefs way back in the day. Exactly.

Speaker A: I had him on the show.

Speaker B: He, you know, he had partners that didn't work out. He rebuilt himself. He just got nominated. He got a Michelin nod. You know, I mean, I like people that persevere. That's, like, important to me.

Speaker A: Is he still with Ken?

Speaker B: He's not. And that's the. That's the sort of coincidence, but I respect them both for different reason. They were partners for a long time, and now they're not. And they both branched out, and I just think that's. I don't know, I just find it to be so cool.

Speaker A: I want to say it's been about five years since I've spoken to Jason. I'd love to get him back on the show. And Ken, I would love to get Ken on. He's been on my radar. I'd love to make that happen. So look up, fellas. I'm coming after you. And, um, if we were inspired by today's story, if we want to follow with you or follow you, connect with you, I don't know what you're willing to share, uh, but any way to follow or connect, now's the time to get it out.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you can certainly email me, Jason Buttermilk, bourbon.com or Instagram Chef Jason Santos. But, you know, same thing. I. I respond to every single email. I get a lot of dms, you know, from people, and I try to respond to everybody because I just think that connection's important and, like, it's the same thing. I. I think, you know, Gordon said this to me once when, if you have to tell people how famous you are, you're not famous, you know, and if you have to tell people how good you are, you're not good. So I just try to do the right thing, employ good people, have a good product, and. Yeah, and just enjoy life. And, like, it's so cliche, but, like, loving people, being friendly, it just goes such a long way. And I feel like people are so removed nowadays. I just really try to keep that human connection and create that experience.

Speaker A: And I will say this something I admire about you. I noticed when I was setting up today, you're sitting right next to me as I was setting up. You Got on a phone call, and you didn't say, hi, I'm, um, Jason, the, uh, you know, host of Bar Rescue and five times time sous. Ah, chef. Or, you know, Gordon Ramsay said, hey, I'm Jason. I'm a restaurant owner. That's what you said. And I was like, okay, because humble.

Speaker B: I mean, I. You know, look, in the beginning, I used to love the tv, but now it's like, I wear a hat. I. Blue hair. I'm a beacon for the crazies when I'm out, you know, so I'll wear a hat, and it just goes away. But I just don't. People sort of have this, like, weird pedestal of me, and I just. I don't like that. I'm, like, one with everybody. I did a. A local magazine in Burlington. They came to my house to shoot the COVID yesterday, and they were, like, so overly thankful for my time. Put me on the COVID of magazine. I'm thanking you. You know, like, I just. I'm not that person. I just. I'm very, very, very grateful and very lucky, and I think, you know, being preparation meets luck, I think is everything, and I'm always prepared, and I'm super grateful to be so lucky. Yeah.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for taking the time to sit with me, to take almost two hours out of your day, uh, to get open, to get transparent, vulnerable, uh, sincere. It all was clearly not a show, man. This is. This is you. And I can't. I can't do it without people like you. So there is no questioning, my man. You are unstoppable. Thank you so much.

Speaker B: Appreciate that very much.

Speaker A: Cheers.