S5E4: Authenticity Over 'Fake It': Lessons in Leadership and Life with Reese Gifford

Speaker A: Welcome to Productly Speaking, the podcast with real stories from real product people about the messy, surprising, and occasionally brilliant work of building things. I'm your host, Carl Abbott. Here. We have no perfect processes, no polished answers, just honest conversations and lessons learned the hard way. Let's give this a go. On today's episode of Productly Speaking, we're talking about authenticity and humility, not as leadership ideals, but as things you learn the hard way when the stakes are real. I'm really glad to welcome back a returning guest, Reece Gifford. Reece has spent her career navigating those moments where who you are and how you show up actually matters. Riis, welcome back. It's great to have you here again.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. It's great to be here, Carl. I'm really excited about this podcast.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, Reece, for listeners who don't know you yet, how would you describe yourself and your journey into tech?

Speaker B: So I started Intech in the late 90s, so it's been quite, uh, a long journey at this point. And I'm a product and technology leader who has spent my career at the intersection of, uh, innovation, security, and impact. Today I focus on the secure cloud, confidential computing, and my most important effort is sovereignty in Asia. And when we talk about sovereignty in Asia, it's really kind of fun and cool because it's specific requirements by governments in each of these different regions, and it goes well beyond the data residency and differs by country. So kind of a fun evolution in my career and definitely really fun trend is this is the first time I have been on a team in my career that is 50% women. So that's kind of fun. Yeah.

Speaker A: So that's a far ways away from where you grew up in Leadville, Colorado. How did that environment of Leadville shape who you are today?

Speaker B: I think it shaped me really in every way possible, because where I grew up, it was a mining town, and it was people who either worked for the mine or worked in support of the mine. And so when you don't have a gigantic status hierarchy and you don't have folks kind of inherently thinking that their job is better than someone else's job, it really shapes you in terms of resiliency, humility, and your work ethic. So where I came from, everybody had to be resourceful, everybody had to be grounded, and everybody had to be kind to your neighbor, because if you didn't m, you were going to see your neighbor at the grocery store, you were going to see your neighbor at church. You know, you were just going to see them everywhere. And So I think those values have held true.

Speaker A: Yeah. So what were some of the biggest lessons that you learned from your childhood and community?

Speaker B: I think the biggest thing is that people showed up for each other, and hard work and kindness were expected. They were not optional. And with us, manners mattered. It was one of those things that it was expected that you would say, yes, sir, no, sir. Yes, ma'. Am. You would say, please and thank you. And also it taught us that life is hard. Like, people worked hard, they hardly took long vacations, and a lot of folks in that community lived paycheck to paycheck. So if you got sick and didn't work, that meant that you didn't have money for your families, for groceries. So I think the lessons that I learned from that were if you work hard, you can achieve, and if you work hard, you can. You can attain. And also, like, you have to count on the community around you to provide that type of support. One kind of funny thing I did want to tell you is my big dream, uh, growing up in Leadville, was to move to Vail, Colorado. And my goal, my financial goal was to be able to afford as many cans of peaches that I could, because, like, we were just poor, you know. And so I was like, ah. And I can. So that's good. I think we've hit the goal.

Speaker A: So you've. You've said you're affecting more people than you know. Where did that insight come from?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm going to actually share with you a couple of different stories. And as I mentioned, it was just an expectation that people were nice to each other, particularly in my family. Like, we were hardcore. Like, you be nice even in the face of adversity. So, um, two different stories. One is about a young lady. She's a couple years younger than me, and she was a diverse person. She was a lesbian. And some of the other girls in our school were picking on her. And I stood up for her. And, you know, we weren't, like, fast or super close friends by any means, but I was always very nice to her. And then this other story. There was a young lady who was in my grade, and she was well liked but not particularly popular. And, uh, I had invited her to a birthday party, and she said it was the only time in high school that she was ever invited to. To sleepover. Uh, but fast forward. And when 30 years later, both of these ladies came back to me. And this is what I mean when I say you're affecting people. The lesbian who was m. Who is my friend, reached back out and said that I was the only person who ever stood up to the mean girls for her and that she took that with her and used that in her life to be like, I can stand up for people, I can do the right thing. And she had told me, I never knew this, by the way, this is what I mean when I say you're affecting people is. She said that that went with her far longer than I ever knew. And then this other friend of mine who, as I mentioned, just had kind of a different social dynamic, it ended up being one of those things that when she went to college, the authorities found out that she had been being molested by her stepfather for her whole childhood and even into college. And she was so grateful for the one invitation that she had gotten to come and stay the night at my house and to just feel like a normal person. And again, I never realized the impact of that. And so, um, yeah, so when you think about long term effects of just being nice, it's really crazy to see, you know, 30 years later, how things come full circle.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, those are powerful examples of how just being nice and showing up, especially when you had no idea what was really going on in that situation, really had an impact in those people's lives. What does that start to look like at work?

Speaker B: So, um, for me, I feel like it's, uh, be kind. And being kind means telling the truth, even when it's uncomfortable, and doing it in a way that protects people's dignity. It's saying that we don't have to avoid hard conversations, but we want to handle them with care and we want to assume positive intent. There is no way that most people are trying to make your life harder. They're just doing the best with what they have. And when you start with positive intent, your tone changes, your patience grows, and collaboration across the board gets easier. So, um, kindness is being aware also that people carry things you can't see. So a short response or a missed deadline or a moment of tension, there's often a story behind it. And I'm not saying excuse poor behavior, but I am saying respond with curiosity before judgment and give credit freely. So when I say be kind, if you are in a room with a bunch of leaders and you can call out someone else's work and, uh, see how they respond and how much it improves the way that they see themselves when other leaders see them, I think that's amazing. And then a couple of things. Like, I think that kindness is about making space, making sure that those quieter voices are Heard making sure that if they get talked over in a meeting that you can intercede just so that everybody feels important. And also it's about accountability. So it means if I make a mistake, I own it quickly and openly. And uh, that in turn gives other people the ability to do the same. It builds trust faster than pretending to be perfect. And finally it's about doing what you said you would do. And that's one of the most underrated forms of respect.

Speaker A: So has there been a time where kindness has been hard to choose in those environments?

Speaker B: Oh, for sure, right. You know, I think that there's always moments when someone comes at you and they, when you may have made a mistake. Actually, I made a mistake. And I think you're actually aware of a mistake that I made Carl, about a year and a half ago. And people responded quite aggressively. And I think in those situations you just have to take a step back. And sometimes by God, it does help to just type out your response and then walk away and then come back and be, be in this mindset of choose kindness and be humble. And it worked itself out. You know, I had made an assumption without context. And when I had it, then I think everybody was able to slow down. We were able to ask better questions and then we were able to collectively resolve the situation.

Speaker A: But there is a cost to that in the moment.

Speaker B: There is. No, there is. You know, and that's the thing is it's a hard balance to manage when you're like, okay, if I be quiet, am I being perceived as weak? Or if I be quiet and am, um, I being thought of as a pensful, pensive, thoughtful person.

Speaker A: So what was it like entering the field of tech as a young woman?

Speaker B: So it was equal parts exciting and isolating. So I often walked into rooms where I was the only woman and I was the youngest. There wasn't a roadmap. There weren't many people that I could look to who had a story like mine. So a lot of times I was figuring out in real time, not just learning the work, but how to exist in that space. There was pressure, some of it was internal, some of it was external where I felt continually like I had to prove that I belonged before I was allowed to just move on. So I always over prepared, I made sure that I knew my material. I did background research and I learned that if I was going to have a voice in a room, it needed to be grounded in substance. And at the same time there were moments that sharpened me in ways I am grateful for now. Like Being underestimated teaches you how to let your work speak for itself. And being overlooked can teach you how to advocate for yourself and others. As you know, I just mentioned calling them out in a room, but there's something really powerful about that. And I loved those problem solving, and I loved building things that didn't exist before, and I loved realizing that I could hold my own, that I could walk into a room, no matter who was in it, and contribute in a meaningful way. Over time, what shifted was my mindset. So I stopped trying to fit in the room and started focusing on what I brought to it. So if I'm being honest, it shaped how I lead today. I pay attention to who's in the room. I, uh, listen differently. And it taught me resilience. But more than that, it taught me you don't have to change who you are to succeed. You just have to be willing to stand in it.

Speaker A: So was there any specific incident that comes to mind when talking through those things?

Speaker B: Actually, yeah. And this is the craziest thing. One time I was working at a booth at a tech conference, and I had a fellow come up to me and ask me a technical question, and I gave him the answer, and he, um, looked at me and said, oh, I just didn't expect you to be smart. I came over to talk to you just because you were pretty. And I was like, well, actually. So I was able to expand and answer his question. But it's one of those things where, you know, the assumption was that because the way that I was perceived is looking, that I was not smart. And those are just the types of things that you have to continually overcome and continually plan for.

Speaker A: Yeah. So you've seen and experienced some tough situations early in your career. Like some of those moments you just talked about. How did you navigate those moments?

Speaker B: Well, very imperfectly, if I'm being honest. So, as I mentioned before, early on, I thought that strength meant having it all together. It meant not showing emotion. You certainly didn't want to, you know, as a, uh, female in the room in those. Those days, you didn't want to seem weak. And so I internalized things that were never mine to carry. I just put my head down and worked harder. And sometimes it was enough and sometimes it wasn't. But what I learned over time is that navigating those hard situations is not about, uh, just powering through things alone. It's about getting a clear head and knowing the things that you can do and accepting the things that you can't and relying on the people around you. And so I, over time, you know, as I grew, I started finding my voice. Not all at once, but, but in moments. And saying things like, oh, that didn't sit right with me, or asking questions instead of saying silent and really just advocating for myself and others who didn't have a voice in the room. And then I also learned deeply the importance of finding people that you can trust, finding people that you can be vulnerable with, who will tell you you're not crazy, or here's how to handle that, or I might have done things differently who can just help you understand boundaries and be, uh, kind and still be firm. And I learned that I didn't have to earn respect by tolerating things that didn't align with my values. So if I could go back to my younger self, what I would say is, you don't have to prove your worth by ending things silently. Your voice is part of strength and it's not a risk to using it.

Speaker A: That's a very powerful thing to be able to tell our younger selves.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's interesting to think back and just think about, you know, where. Where we were as a society with women in tech and coming back to that now and just thinking, like, if I could go back, like, what would I do? Because there was such joy in learning the things that we, you know, we did as we walked through that. And also like, wow, I just could have done m. Certain things better.

Speaker A: Yeah. M. And you know, you've also given the advice, love what you do. And you're talking about how it was a lot of fun to build and to just be in that role. How did you learn to discern what you actually love in your career?

Speaker B: I didn't figure that all out at once for sure. It was more of a trial and error and, you know, not necessarily a huge moment of clarity. But I was talking to someone else, another female in Microsoft, and she had said, oh, it took me about 10 years to realize I actually love tech. And I had to giggle because I was like, you know what? Uh, I kind of felt the same way. Like, early in my career, I chased what I thought I should love. You know, I thought that I should love the very hardest things. The highest paying roles and things that looked impressive, that seemed important on paper to other people. And those. There were definitely parts of those experiences that I genuinely enjoyed. But I started to notice as I grew as a human, the difference between what drained me and what gave me energy. And that was my signal. So I paid attention to the moments Where I would lose track of time, where I felt fully engaged, and where I walked away thinking, I want to do more of that. And for me, that was building, that was solving hard problems, creating something that didn't exist. And just as important, I paid attention to what didn't feel right. So the work that left me depleted, the environments that didn't align with my values, the moments where I felt like I had to shrink or perform instead of just showing up as myself. So over time, I got more honest with myself and realized that loving what you do isn't about loving every single task. It's about being connected to the core of the work in a way that feels meaningful to you. And I also realized that love can evolve like different seasons of your life, different priorities, different definitions of success, and giving myself permission to not have to chase the biggest role. And that for me came from discernment and paying attention and really listening to both my mind and my body, where energy, alignment, curiosity and growth, when those things are consistently present, you're usually close to doing something that you love.

Speaker A: Yeah. So you've also run your own business. Mhm. What did running your own business teach you about leadership and people?

Speaker B: The thing that I learned the very most from building my own business was it truly being close to the people who work for you in a way that you understand their children's names, that their job is deeply affecting them, not only at work, but in the way that they respond at home. And so with that, there's a lot of accountability and leadership in making sure that your people are taken care of and making sure that the things that you are doing are going to ensure sustainability of the company. And um, you know, when you work at Microsoft, of course that means sustainability of the roles of thinking about, hey, what's the next thing that's going to happen so that you can make sure that your team is taken care of. And I think at a deeper level, when you own your own business, that is the roadmaps, the vision have to be strong and you don't have the same option of necessarily failing fast. You know, like you have to just really try things and make sure that you always have a backup plan to make sure that your people are sustained.

Speaker A: Yeah. Because there's a lot of failure.

Speaker B: There's a lot of failure.

Speaker A: Your own business, at first, yeah, yeah,

Speaker B: there's a lot of failure. And just so wholeheartedly being aware of the impact in that on people who work for you is. It's intense. It's good, but it's intense.

Speaker A: So you've also said, look, uh, the part, and always be ready with a joke. Why are presence and emotional intelligence so important to you?

Speaker B: I think a couple things. So I think when you show up, when you are going into a face to face meeting, how you present yourself matters. And you can appreciate this. Like we've all been in tech meetings where maybe the wisest fellow in the entire room shows up in sweatpants and a T shirt. And it is like, it, it is telling, like you want to just always believe, but there is just a perception that goes on. And for me, of course, as being a female growing up, like, I've always, you know, dressed a little more, I guess, a little more business like than some of my male counterparts. So what that, what happened is part of that is I came across as very strong, very knowledgeable. And so that was, I started telling jokes so that I was more approachable to people. And so, yeah, it's just kind of interesting. Like humor matters more than people think. Like, a well timed joke can break tension in the room, reset a conversation, and it just reminds people that you're human and you don't if you're not just a title.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And it's so much fun when somebody actually does drop that well timed joke and the tension in the room can settle. I mean, everybody else appreciates that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and especially if the room's gotten stale or it's awkward silence and you can break it with a joke, it just makes everything easier. And then people like you can sometimes physically see them just relax and like, okay, we're back.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And it just helps move that conversation along so much easier.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So you also advise that people do their homework. How has preparation shaped your success?

Speaker B: It has shaped it immensely, I think when you are interviewing for a job, when you're pitching a product, when you are thinking about a new idea, if you haven't researched that thoroughly and you go to pitch anything or you go to sit in a meeting and you don't, you don't come across as knowledgeable. Preparation and doing my homework has been one of the most consistent differentiators in my career. So a couple things, right? It builds confidence in me as a human, and not the loud kind where you're like, you know, the person who's speaking the loudest, but the steady kind where you know, you can stand behind what you're saying. And also it shows respect to other people in the room. Like when you come prepared, you're signaling to other others. People time and their contributions matter. And Doing your homework gives you options. You don't react in the moment. Um, you're not trying to connect the dots and add value. Like, you know, and you should be prepared for those things so that you can have real time impact and create value.

Speaker A: Yeah. So one of your strongest messages is don't pretend to know more than you do. Why is that such an important lesson?

Speaker B: I think people can tell when you are pretending. And once trust is gone, it's really, really hard to get back. And honestly, it's just super irritating. Like when someone tries to tell you, and as a listener, if you know they're wrong, then it immediately puts a mindset in place that you are not credible. And so if you're just honest, and I'm not saying you have to ask, uh, questions in the room, but just be honest about what you do know and then you build credibility. And that comes from a place of honesty. So saying things like, I don't know, but I'll find out is a lot stronger than trying to bluff your way through something. And as a leader, it's really important to show people that you don't know everything because then you're real and you're accountable, but you're creating a space for right answers to emerge.

Speaker A: Yeah. So has there ever been a time that you've been tempted to, or maybe actually have pretended to know more than you did?

Speaker B: Oh, I think we've all done it. Great. I mean, really, I think we all have. And, you know, as cybersecurity became an emerging field, uh, one of my best clients when I had my own company was a sim company in Colorado. And because I was in such kind of cutting edge meetings in that technology, I thought I had understood a concept. I completely didn't. And so, yeah, I had to backtrack in a meeting. And it's embarrassing, but I think the most important thing is acknowledging that you made a mistake. I mean, that that goes such a long way. Whereas if you just, you know, kind of try to bluff your way through the whole thing, it's insanity and you just lose credibility.

Speaker A: Well, you think you're protecting yourself from yourself, but you find out soon enough you're not.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I know. And it's hard, right, because you don't. You know, we live in a culture, and by we I mean like you and I and everybody in tech, you live in a culture where contributing matters and participating matters and making sure that the work that you do is actually contributing value. And so there's just an inherent nature in us to, to say Things. But I will say like something else that I'm noticing a lot of people doing these days is chiming in and saying the exact same thing that was just said in a way that they, the next person tries to make it their own. But it was the same thing that was just said. And I'm like, that is craziness too. Like, you don't have to do that. You know what I mean? Uh, like my big joke right now is like five people say the same thing, only slightly differently, so that they can sound important.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yeah. So you also often say, help me understand. Help me understand that. Why does that phrase matter so much?

Speaker B: I think they're in a lot of situations. There are people who may come at you strong or maybe super intense. And uh, for example, if I don't know the answer and someone's, you know, kind of coming at me, if I say, help me understand where you're coming from, then what it does is instead of reacting or pushing back, it opens the door and it tells the person that I'm here to understand and not to win. And uh, just saying that changes how people feel heard. And so when you say that and you're not confrontational, you get better information, it creates better collaboration and often better outcomes.

Speaker A: Yeah. So let's talk about positive intent and assuming positive intent. How has that played out in your career?

Speaker B: I think both in my career and honestly personally, it keeps me curious instead of defensive. And that doesn't mean to ignore or tolerate inappropriate behavior. It just means that if you assume someone is coming at you or making a suggestion, just start from a place that gives them the benefit of the doubt. And more often than not, that will lead to a faster resolution and stronger trust. And if you assume positive intent, then you have to recognize that they want to contribute to the idea and not overrun you. And that just that mindset helps with everything in life. And I'm gonna digress slightly here. I've been reading a lot about neuroplasticity and how just training your brain to think positively, to assume positive intent, and to just think that way makes your brain actually do that by default more often. So it just creates these different neural pathways. So the more that you do it and the more that you just have that type of respect for others, the more your brain does it automatically, which is kind of cool.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, that's really quite interesting. So when have you had this assumption tested?

Speaker B: Oh my gosh, like every day that I lead a project, you know, like, I mean, honestly, I mean, I can Give you so many examples. So we've talked about the fact that I, you know, worked for Mozilla and I was VP product for the web browser.

Speaker A: And

Speaker B: what happens when you work in an open source environment like that is everybody feels important and that they can contribute. And so there's a lot of ideas being thrown at you at once, and sometimes they can perhaps be thought of as a bit superfluous. But if you assume that everybody who wants to contribute has positive intent, then it makes just hearing all of those things much better. It makes it easier to take in, and it makes it easier to just listen and to help the person who's bringing those ideas feel justified and feel honored.

Speaker A: So what does it mean to honor yourself and others in a business context?

Speaker B: I think that it means not abandoning yourself to fit a situation and also not dismissing others in the process. So honoring yourself looks like having boundaries, standing your values, and speaking up when something doesn't align. But it also means respecting different perspectives, different contribution and other people's time. And I, um, think respecting other people's time and efforts they put into something is a really, really big deal because people don't want to waste their time or just, you know, do something crazy that won't be valued. And so when you have those things present, you get healthier teams. And honestly, you get better collaboration and better team decisions and a lot less resentment.

Speaker A: Yeah. So another thing that we've talked about is your emphasis on donating and volunteering. How does giving back kind of help keep you grounded as a person?

Speaker B: You know, I think it grounds you in what actually matters. When you look at the pyramid of things that we need in life, you know, it's like water, shelter, food. And when we volunteer, when I volunteer, it reminds me that those basic things, um, are bigger and more important than what? Than whatever I'm dealing with that day. You know, work can feel so all consuming, especially in high pressure environments. And giving back and just realizing, like, hey, some people don't genuinely don't even have a set of clothes, um, it shifts your perspective. And not only does it reconnect us with people, but it helps us to think about real needs. And honestly, like, uh, I've told you this before, like, I almost never get mad because my perspective every day, every day is I have legs that work. I have a very dear friend who is, is handicapped. I have a roof over my head. And every day I start by just being grateful. And when you work with the homeless, that just gets instilled in you, or not even just the homeless. But like any situation where people have so much less, it just keeps you humane.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you also had a piece of advice where you talk about keeping your priorities straight. What does that look like for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think we all want to succeed, so I don't know. I'm not saying a career doesn't matter, but I'm saying family matters, friends matter, health matters, and integrity matters. So work is important, and I care very, very deeply about what I do, but it's not everything. And if success at work comes at the cost of any of those aforementioned things, like the people I love or my health, that's not success. Because while work can get me to retirement, it's not going to sustain me for the rest of my life. You know, work isn't going to be there if I get sick. So, yeah, I think that keeping those priorities straight and making sure you do well and you succeed at work, but also, um, just keep some perspective in mind is really a good thing.

Speaker A: Well. And you have to keep it all in balance as well.

Speaker B: Yep, absolutely.

Speaker A: So what's the most Reese thing your team jokes about?

Speaker B: Um, I don't know if you've noticed, Carl, but I have a lot of energy. I have a lot of energy, like, all the time. And so there's always. They joke a lot about the energy that I bring into a room. And also, I'm just a super positive person. And we. We had a joke on the team that I just transitioned out of that something happened in technology, and I was like, well, you know, this could be a good thing because of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And my boss at time was like, well, I don't know about that. And then someone else chimed in and they're like, well, of course Reece would be looking at the positive side anyway, and you wouldn't. And it's just kind of. It's just kind of. So I do have that reputation also. Like, you know, there's always a good counterbalance and challenging that, uh, they definitely would say something about my energy and also my incredibly bad dad jokes and dehumor.

Speaker A: So incredibly bad dad, uh, jokes always. So is there a book, movie or piece of content that recently changed your perspective?

Speaker B: I am reading this series of books, and it's really, really kind of crazy. I did not think I would like this, but one of my dearest friends said to me that he wanted me to read the Wandering in, and he wanted me to read it just so he could talk to me about it. And it's so interesting because it's A book about people being emerged into a, uh, game, but emerged to the point where they realize that they've left Earth, but they have to kind of work in this other world. There's all different kind of creatures in this other world, and you get levels up, but it's their evolution of understanding. Like, oh, I need these skills to level up. And how do you obtain them? And when I think about that book, it's so interesting because there's very few humans, and it draws me to think about leadership, impact, and how to conform without being completely changed. And so it's just been very, very interesting. And the most disappointing thing I will tell you is I got done with the book one and I was like, this is amazing. And then I looked and I was like, oh, my God, there's 19 books in this series. And I was like, why did he do this to me? So it's been. It's been really fun to. I want only on the second book, but it's been really fun to just kind of think about those things.

Speaker A: M. And does the second book carry the continuity of the first?

Speaker B: It does.

Speaker A: Sometimes these series, like, the first book is the best, and then it kind of dies down from there, but.

Speaker B: Well, so far, book 2 is good. I have no idea how book 19 will be or if I'll even sustain, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a lot. 19.

Speaker B: I know. I was like, joe, why? Why did you do this?

Speaker A: But, you know, reading fiction and literature, I think that those are absolutely key to keeping our minds youthful and keeping them energized and full of the types of knowledge and human characteristics that we need to all understand to be successful product managers. So I'm not surprised to see that you were reading as well.

Speaker B: Well, and I've got to tell you, this is a secret that we. I'm. I'm going to announce quite publicly in a couple months, but my son and I authored a book together, and it's also science fiction. Yeah, yeah, so. So we're super excited about that. But it's very much the same thing. It's about these, like, animalistic science fiction characters, science fiction characters, and trying to succeed and just evolving their personalities. Like, I agree with you. I think that type of fiction and thinking about perspectives in. In a different way than we would every day just helps keep us sane, you know, it's just really, really fun.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, Reece, one final question to help our audience get to know you a little bit better. What's one small habit or ritual that keeps you grounded when Life gets chaotic.

Speaker B: The small ritual that I do every single day, and I mentioned this earlier, is I start out with gratitude. So before I even get out of bed, I go through my children, my husband, where I live, my health, and I think just recognizing that you don't have to be perfect to be grateful. And that if you're just real and you're kind and you're willing to learn, there's always an aspect of something to be grateful for. And so even when things get super tense at work, I try to just step outside that and be like, okay, I'm grateful that I have a job. You know, I'm grateful that I'm on this team. And I think that being real, being kind, and being willing, uh, willing to learn will take you further than having all the answers ever will. And if you do that with a heart of gratitude, you just are a better person.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you for that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker A: Your book, anything you want to say about that that's coming out. I mean, by the time this podcast airs, it'll be out.

Speaker B: Yeah. So we're super excited. So this idea started with my son. He had developed some of these characters. He loves to write, which is crazy because he's in intelligence and the Marines. And so what we did is we worked together to create this environment where, as I mentioned, there's these fictional characters, they actually go to a university to develop their magical skills. And the main character doesn't realize how powerful he is. And so it's his journey of finding himself, but going through these battles as he gets there. And so, just as you think about like a human parable, right, like we all have to go through battles in life. And it's his particular journey about finding himself and realizing how he can thrive there, but with the support of his friends and with people who love him. So I think it's really fun. Just really, really fun. Lots of different kind of science fictiony things come out in, uh, it. But yeah, I hope we get lots of readers.

Speaker A: Yeah. What's the name of the book?

Speaker B: The name of the book is Outfox. And, um, so there's. We think we might do a series, but the first one is called the Becoming of Slate Stormheart.

Speaker A: Okay, excellent.

Speaker B: So, yeah, now. Now I'm gonna have to get the editing done, Carl.

Speaker A: Yes. There are steps to get out there. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Reece. It's been great having you here.

Speaker B: Uh, thank you. Always a pleasure, Carl. And, you know, always, I love your podcast and so love and love listening to them and love contributing. Thank you so much.

Speaker A: That's productly speaking, brought to you by the letters P and M. Um, if this one resonated, subscribe and pass it along. Real stories travel best by word of mouth. You can find us at www.productlyspeaking.com or on LinkedIn. I'm Carl Abbott. Thanks for listening and I'll see you in the next one.