Bonus Replay: Intellectual Property and the Future of Practice

Speaker A: Hello Disruptors. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Before we get into it, I want to take a minute to tell you where we are in, uh, the year. Season 12 wrapped last week and I am grateful for every conversation we had this season and for each of you who listened, shared and wrote back along the way. Season 13 is on its way. We are deep in planning, lining up guests who are rethinking how architecture gets practiced, paid for and led. And I think you are going to like where we are taking it in between the two seasons. I did not want to go quiet on you, so we are doing something a little different. We are bringing back one of our strongest episodes, a conversation worth a second listen that lands differently now than it did the first time, especially as questions of authorship and ownership sit close to the center of the AI moment we are all working through. You will hear a handful of bonus episodes from our practice of architecture partners, people and companies doing real work that is worth your attention. So whether this is your first time here or you have been with us for years, settle in. There's good listening ahead between now and season 13. Let's get into it. Hello Disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Today we're diving diving into a topic that often goes overlooked in the architecture industry, intellectual property or ip. Whether you're designing buildings, developing brand identities or collaborating on creative projects, protecting your work is critical in today's interconnected world. To guide us through this, we're thrilled to have Ana Zhenija, an award winning intellectual property attorney and founder of Ana Law, joining us today. Ana specializes in helping everyone from startups to celebrities secure and monetize their brands and ideas. Her firm is known for its innovative flat fee services and boosts 100% success rate in securing patents, trademarks and copyrights. Ana will share her insights on how architecture firms can safeguard their brand identities, protect their design concepts and navigate the evolving landscape of IP in an increasingly digital world. We'll also explore strategies for mitigating risks, monetizing your intellectual property, and working across international borders. This is an important conversation for anyone looking to secure their firm's future while continuing to innovate. Let's dive in.

Speaker B: Hi Ana, so glad to have you on the show this week. Thank you for joining us here on Practice Disrupted.

Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me excited to be here.

Speaker B: We mentioned this before we jumped on the call, but I am very naive about intellectual property and trademarks. You know, for me, I hope this conversation is really a starter for architects to understand what we ultimately should be doing to protect ourselves as creative service providers. So we like to open up with a little bit of an icebreaker, uh, just to get things going. Is there anything that you're looking forward to in the near future, be it professionally or personally, that you'd be willing to maybe share?

Speaker C: You know, today I'm really looking forward to fall because I feel like it's just been a hot summer. That's all I can kind of think of, you know, immediate thoughts, but, but lots of exciting things coming up. Um, you know, definitely interested in the election and all that. I love politics, even though I'm not super political, but lots of exciting things upcoming, but we'll see how that affects, you know, business and IP in the future.

Speaker B: We're keeping a close eye on it too, to understand, like, how it affects, I think, I mean, even supply chain. Right. For buildings and architecture. So, you know, like I said, I think our audience is relatively new to IP and trademark law and everything, really. You actually cover a lot more than I would say most IP lawyers and attorneys do. So can you give us, from a historical perspective, just an overview of intellectual property law and what it is that you do?

Speaker C: Sure. So I'll start with the very basics because a lot of people also conflate the terms. So just to explain and give the definitions, uh, you know, intellectual property, that's when I say ip, intellectual property is basically anything that's of value that, you know, is valuable, but you can't necessarily hold it. So that means it's intangible, but it's very valuable, even though it's not something that would typically be like property or a, uh, good that you can hold in your hands. But when you have an idea that is very valuable because either it's going to help other people, other people are going to want to use it, or, or it might help something or improve something that's already out there and make it better, that is a valuable idea and that is intangible. You can't hold your idea in your hands. So that's what intellectual property is. It's your ideas, basically, and being able to monetize them. So there are four main types of ip and a couple of them are really relevant to. Well, all of them are good for architects to know, but couple more relevant than others. So. So the first type that everyone talks about, you know, copyrights, very relevant to architects. So copyright covers anything that's considered an original work of authorship. So typically you're going to think copyrights artwork, I like to think copyrights content so videos, movies, books, sculptures and architecture, software code. So all of these things are covered by copyright law. And this is going to be protected. When you file for copyright registration, you get that from the U.S. copyright Office. And copyright ownership is typically governed by contract. So by any contract that you might have in your employment contract or written transfer of copyright rights. Copyright is interesting because also your rights attach immediately. So as soon as you put pencil to paper, automatic ownership of a certain, you know, level of copyright rights, that's the first type of ip. The second type is trademarks. And trademarks protect brands. So things like your brand name, maybe your personal name, if you're a personal brand, your slogan, logo, tagline, you can also trademark things like a jingle of a podcast or even emotion. You can also trademark a smell. So basically anything, whether it's a name, logo, slogan or smell that people are going to associate with you, that can be protected with trademark law and that is protected with the uspto, the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Then the third type of IP patents, this protects inventions. So this is going to be tools, some type of software and apps can be protected with patents. Chemicals, things that you're actually inventing can be protected with patents. So there's a lot of differences between these three types of ip. People always get them confused. They're all very different. You have to secure your protection through each differently, the level of protection is different, how long it lasts, it's all different. And how you can sell them, monetize them, that's all different as well. The last fourth type of ip, major type of IP is trade secrets. And trade secrets are basically anything of value that you have kept a secret. So one of the most famous trade secrets is the Coca Cola formula in the vault in Atlanta. And this is really publicized as a trade secret. But lots of things can be trade secrets, including your vendor lists, supplierless systems and processes. Anything in your business that's your secret sauce and you're keeping a secret, as in you have taken steps to keep it a secret via, uh, things like NDAs. So that is all considered trade secret. You don't register your trade secret necessarily. You have to protect it by taking steps to keep it a secret. Your remedy when someone steals your trade secret is really to sue them. So it's one of the weakest protective forms, I guess of ip, so to speak, but very valuable because there are certain things that you can't protect through the other methods. So trade secrets can, can be kind of a catch all for that. So that's kind of an overview just of all the types of IP I know. That's so much info.

Speaker B: There's so many questions. I think we can riff off of what you literally just said there. I feel like I need to go tell every architect to go and copyright their plans now for every single project they do. I mean, would that be a natural response?

Speaker C: No. Because typically as an architect, you're going to work for a company, okay. Unless you're a standalone architect or you own your own firm or your own company, or you're an architect maybe in house somewhere. So if you're in house somewhere though, you are working for a company. So usually the way that companies do things in corporate America at least this is, by the way, all the information I'm giving is really America specific. So IP rights are different in every country. So specifically, um, in America it's very commonplace for industry specific to IP heavy industries, which would be architects or if you're in research and development, architects work in with a lot of engineers and a lot of companies as well, depending on, you know, what type of architecture you're doing. But if you are working for somebody else, whether it's an architect firm and you guys are kind of the agency model where you work then for other companies or your architectural firm has clients, or if you work in house for a company that's hiring architects for projects, then you are very likely have signed some sort of employment contract that would actually sign your rights to whatever you create in the scope of your work for that company or firm to that company or firm. So that's very, very common for architects, engineers, graphic designers, these type of industries where it's an IP heavy industry to have signed your rights to your employer. Now if you're a 1099, you wanna check what your independent contractor contract said agreement said. So lots of things to think there. But if you've signed your assigned basically automatically all the IP that you create in your job to your company, you can't really register your copyrights.

Speaker B: So that's at the individual, obviously the, uh, employee level. So we have a lot of firm owners that listen to this and we talk about our service or our product is, our instruments of services is kind of the drawings. Right. But we don't own the building. So is there anything as a firm owner in my contract with, you know, the client who is paying for the building that I should be aware of copywriting in terms of the work I'm delivering?

Speaker C: Yes. So again, in these IP heavy industries, your client contract should dictate what IP rights you retain or what the client retains and what they're allowed to maybe sub license to their, you know, contractors and, and other engineers or other people who are involved in the building of the building. So, uh, architects really, really copyright their signature designs. There's lots of developers that they have a set of cookie cutter type of homes and they have copyrighted those plans because that is very valuable. And then they're just licensing it out just like a photographer. So if a photographer is hired to take pictures of a couple's wedding, you know, the photographer is the one who owns the copyright, even though the photos even have the faces of the couple in them. So the photographer in that contract has to either keep uh, or assign or license to the couple the copyright rights to use the photos or have the photos. So a photographer, uh, can either keep the copyright ownership and say, hey, you as the couple have the right to post these on Instagram, use them for your personal use, but you're not allowed to use them for commercial use, you're not allowed to alter my photos with filters, et cetera, et cetera. So you can give a limited license or you can just say, hey, I was hired to do these photos for you and now they're all yours, along with the copyright rights. Your contract, like copyright rights are dictated by written contract. So as an architect as well, if you're a firm owner, maybe you have a standard template contract that you're using with your clients. That's typical. And you want to make sure that you understand what the copyright provision is in your contract. It's usually done in those one of two ways. One is you keep the rights and you license to the person who's paying you or potentially other developer, builder, somebody else you know in the line of command, who knows. You know, projects I know can vary, but whoever you're, who's paying you, who you have that contract with, you want to know what copyright rights you're licensing to them and how they're allowed to use it. And then, or are you just giving those copyright rights to them? And then if you do have plans that are, you know, I, I'm using the word cookie cutter, but what I really mean is signature, like something you are using again and again. That is absolutely something you should consider copywriting because you've maybe developed something that now you're kind of known for. You don't really want people to be copying that specific plan and you want to be able to monetize it. Well, you can monetize it through licensing it or selling it or by Enforcing it. Of course, if people copy you, going after them, making them pay you a license fee. So there's uh, always a time and place to copyright. As an architect, you actually don't need to have the full prototype or anything of the building built in order to get the copyright. So the plans themselves are something you can copyright.

Speaker B: But this isn't just something that I can like write in my contract, obviously and say like now I own the copyright to uh, this, like there's a formal process, uh, probably. I mean, you're trained in doing these type of things well, so you actually

Speaker C: can write in the contract. Well, first of all though, as the architect, you actually are the one who owns the copyright. So if your contract is empty as to that or doesn't refer to it, you actually forever retain the copyright. Technically, of course, there's lots of courts that have decided, you know, but the intention was to do something else, et cetera, et cetera. But overall, you know, that's a, that's a contract law and contract litigation dispute issue, you know, which we all know. Sometimes things, crazy things happen in court. But at the end of the day, your copyright ownership rights are going to be with who actually did the work. So if that's a junior architect, if that's an assistant, if that's, you know, whoever did it, that's who owns the copyright. So if you have employees, you should make sure that your employment contracts are assigning those rights to you. And then you as the firm or company you know, are going to be able to either license or give those rights to your clients. So you, you're, you actually have the copyright. You don't have to write that in the contract, but you have to say how the person who's buying the service from you is either going to get the copyright rights or license them from you.

Speaker B: So I think, I mean, I know, well, there's a lot of people that use like templated contracts, but I don't think that they're actually paying enough attention one to this, especially if they're like a sole provider that is growing their firm. And I'm, um, just putting together kind of the employee engagement contract. I feel like this piece is probably often left like in an unintentionally left out.

Speaker C: So there's two situations where I see a lot of issues with architects just in my, you know, in my experience. So this is going to be very heavy. Over the last, I would say five years has become a prominent issue as the gig market side, hustle market has, uh, kind of exploded. So what has happened is a lot of people working at firms that maybe they just want to earn more money and so they're doing their own side projects. And so the employer doesn't like that they want to own all of the projects that the employee is working on. So you either want to have, you know, moonlighting policy for who owns what, ownership of what ip, you know, during your work hours, you know, the employer owns it, and maybe after hours the employee owns it, or maybe the employee never gets to own it during the duration of their work with the firm. They, the firm owns everything. Right? So you want that really strictly written in the contract. Very, very important. This is where a lot of disputes happen. I've been seeing a lot of disputes happen because, uh, this is a very specific field where you're pretty much not going to be creating plans these days without using tools and software. So typically the employee ends up using the firm's tools and software to do their side hustle work. And so the employer typically wins in this situation if the contract is silent because, you know, the employee, if not, but for having the resources of the employer would not have been able to do that side project. So as an employee, pay attention. You want to make sure you know what you're doing and maybe don't do side projects during the time that you're employed because your revenue that you make is at risk on top of fines that you might have to pay because your IP might, you know, if it's not in your contract, the courts might assign it over to the firm and then is a owner who's hiring employees or contractors as well. You want to make sure that you're specifying who owns what. I mean, if you have a 1099 contractor architect, you're not going to be able to, uh, just blanket own everything that they create. So. But you can put provisions in there that they're not allowed to use your equipment, software, et cetera, information, you know, all of that. You know, they're not allowed to do that when they're not working on your project. So lots of specific language can be put into your contracts. No, I don't think people are paying attention to these agreements until, you know, uh, contracts don't really matter until they really matter. One of my friends says contracts are like condoms. Like they don't really matter until they really matter. You know, until some, until it's like, uh, you just need it because on that day something would have happened. You know, it's a specific situation that might affect a contract every single time you Write a contract doesn't mean that there's going to be a dispute every single time without it. But in the situation where someone, something goes wrong, you're going to be very glad that all of those provisions were in black and white in writing so that, you know, if you do end up, unfortunately in litigation, you can nip that in the bud quickly based on, hey, judge, this is what the contract says. So please give me, you know, the employee's revenue. Or maybe the employee's going to say, hey, in the contract it says, I'm allowed to do this, so I get to keep my revenue. Right. You want to minimize confusion, minimize ambiguity and language as to IP ownership in your contracts, specifically with copyrights, specifically when there's equipment and software involved.

Speaker B: I think, uh, you know, everyone's just like going to go back and look at their, their contract or even their employee contract. There's a lot of conversations, not in the main forums, but like in a lot of Facebook groups I am in, about people wanting to take on side gigs or side hustles. But they, uh, are using the Revit license, right, or the CAD or the BIM license on their computer. Even if it's their computer, it's the employer's license. So even those nuances of like, you shouldn't be using the technology that your firm has and you as a spinning up your own business, need to stand that up on your own. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah. So another thing that is really coming up a lot these days and now that AI is being used a lot, I don't know how, you know, we hear so much about how AI is being used in architecture. I guess from a practical standpoint, I don't know because I'm not actually an architect and I don't, you know, sit there day in and day out and draw plans. But you, as someone who's practicing in the field, you know, the audience, people who are practicing in the field day to day. I don't know if AI is as widespread maybe as social media wants us to think in the field, or if it's not quite used that much anymore. But components of your plans that are created with AI are not protectable via copyright. So that's another thing is that when you can't protect something via copyright, when you are just hired as an architect to create something for a project or for a client, you just do the work and push it off. And your copyright rights, maybe you don't care that much about because they don't matter. That's not how you're going to make your money. But if you have something that you actually want to protect because you feel that the plan is very valuable and you definitely don't want it to get copied and things like that, you want to consider how much AI is being used in the create, you know, creation of this, and is that going to be something that's actually protectable, or are you kind of just exposing yourself to investing a lot into creating this plan that you think is a signature plan, and you're going to license it, monetize it and enforce it, not let anyone else, you know, do anything similar. And then at the end of the day, you don't even actually own it because the court says that you can't own IP that's created with AI. So like I said, from a practical standpoint, I don't know how much AI is truly being used in the day to day, but it's not going away, we're not going backwards. So just something to think about.

Speaker B: Is that something that you ever see, uh, changing over time, or is that kind of like how things are written now and kind of shall ever hold true?

Speaker C: The courts have come down pretty clearly on that. AI cannot own copyright. Now, I, as an attorney who works with people in various fields who are using AI in so many different ways, whether it's for drawings or graphics or written text or even now video. I know lots of architectures are, uh, maybe using AI in 3D renditions and things like that, or maybe just automating some of these processes. I'm of the viewpoint that there's a lot in AI that I can do that's not number one creation. You know, when you talk about automation, maybe the architect's still going to be the one coming up with that 3D rendering, but maybe you're going to use AI to automatically upload it on a site and get feedback on certain components from the client, and then tell the working architect on the team to do certain things. And you know, there's AI that might be AI in the future. I don't know if that, if that exists right now in your field. But you know that AI is not involved in the creation. I don't think that would be at risk of, you know, court saying that you don't own it. And then there's another. So AI that's not involved in the true creation. That is pretty safe. If you're using AI M in that way, then also AI can be considered that. If not, but for you sitting there on that program and typing in certain things or doing certain inputs Whether it's uploading certain types of drawings or giving certain types of directions. If not, but for you sitting there and doing that, that rendering wouldn't have come on the as an output. So it's kind of that but for test. So if you weren't doing that, it never would have been created. Is AI being used as a tool, quote unquote, or is it actually creating? That's an argument that we'll see play out with the courts. You know, how much of uh, the tool is, you know, going to be considered creating? Or is it just a tool, truly a tool that you're using as a tool to help you bring your creation to life? That type of thing that'll be hashed out in courts over various industries. I see architecture being a prominent industry in that because I think architecture is in that manufacturing type of field where you're not making plans these days without technology. And I think that AI and tech is there. That's going to be pretty amazing and mind blowing. So everyone's going to want to use it. So I see that field moving very quickly and I think it'll play out, uh, over the next 15 years. We don't know now, but think about that. If you're putting in a new tool, the first thing I would recommend you guys think about is number one, do your IP rights matter for this case that you're taking on, this project you're taking on for things you're just hired to push out to the client and you know you're not going to retain any rights, you know, you don't really want to. Maybe you want to invest less manpower and more AI into that. And then for projects where maybe you want to create something more signature, something more something that you'll replicate, then maybe you want to put less AI into it and put more manpower into it. And, and then think when you are using AI on those type of cases that would a, uh, reasonable person think that it's just AI doing it, or is AI just my tool that I'm using it as, or is it just connecting creative components?

Speaker B: So I think the use case right now that most architects are using it for is to create multiple iterations of what we otherwise would take us very long to create. You know, a handful of iterations of. Is that then considered a tool that we are leveraging?

Speaker C: Tell me more. So you're creating a one set of plans and then when you say the other iterations of, is it different angles, viewpoints of the same plan or is it changing anything?

Speaker B: There's A few different cases that we can, uh, look at this. I'm going to kind of harken back to the days that I was kind of workplace strategy. So as a workplace strategy, I will have talked to a company and understand their needs, right. How many conference rooms they need and essentially develop a program like, we need this many conference rooms of this size. We want this much space being an open community or commons area. We need this many phone booths in today's day and age, with everyone on zoom. And this is the building envelope that we are putting everything in. And I dump that program in there and say, can you come up with a variety of different configurations in which this program exists in this room footprint, you know, and have kind of the AI, like run through various different configurations of that program, is that then considered a tool or is that then considered like AI generating potential plans?

Speaker C: For me, yes, I would say that leans more on the side of AI generating them because it's actually creating new concepts while it's taking the inputs of square footage and how many rooms and how many chairs would fit in XYZ locations and all of that. Those are definitely inputs you're putting in. But even if you create one set of plans and then say, hey, AI, figure out five other variations where I could fit the same amount of items. I'm just using items as the inputs and come up with some more configurations, I would say that's creating new plan, new configurations. Uh, you can kind of compare an architect to a sculpture. So if you have a. Someone at a pottery wheel, you have all the same five lumps of clay. I don't know if they're actually a word for how much size it is, but let's say like five of the same exact handfuls of clay that they're going to make vases with. You can definitely make five different types of vases with the same grams of clay, same color, right? But you create one variation, and while there's other variations that can be created from these same specs, so to speak, you have to actually create them each individually. When you create something that's a vase in a V shape versus like a more cylinder, straight and up and down shape, those are different. Same specs are being inputted, same amount of clay is being used, but the design and the authorship, so to speak, is different in them. So if you just have a machine with five different molds, that's just the machine with five different molds doing it. That's not necessarily you creating five variations using the same specs. So I would Say really that leans. That case really leans more towards AI doing the creation.

Speaker B: Ah, uh, interesting. Okay. And very good to know. So I think there's going to be a lot more of these type of conversations that uh, will need to continue to happen in our field as the tools begin to develop more over time. And you know, when is it the AI supporting the creation versus the fine line of us taking recommendations or taking the things that the AI creates and then, you know, when are we driving the creation?

Speaker C: Right. So I would say one, you know, in the same type of case, one variation that might lead towards being AI being more of just a tool would be if you create a building with certain specs and maybe, you know, you're creating it in a specific way and then you want to mirror it. You want to create plans that mirror the image or you know, shift certain things that you tell it to that maybe there's two towers and you want to shift them in a different order or maybe placing things on switching up floors that maybe the third floor needs to be on the fifth floor and the fifth floor needs to be on the first floor. So those type of variations I think would be more considered using AI as a tool and maybe saying, hey, I've created this one set of plans. Now I need you to create five sets of plans that switch up XYZ floors in XYZ ways. And you're now just using AI to generate what you have already created and variations thereof that you know, you've still done the creation and now you're telling the exact input. So that would be more of using AI as a tool.

Speaker B: We covered a lot just on copyright. And there's four other things that you talked about. I want to talk a little bit about the nuances between copyright and patent. So for instance, there is, I believe, Apple, I don't know if it's in partnership with an architecture firm, owns a patent for their clear for like the components that make up their clear or glass staircases. It was developed in partnership with an architecture firm. When do you go from this is a copyright something I write in contract to consider? When do I want to make it a patent? And then obviously I'm imagining getting a patent is a lot more time consuming and tedious than just writing copyright. When do we take that next step?

Speaker C: Yeah, so copyright is definitely a, in a lot of cases can be considered a lesser degree of protection. I don't, I caution from saying that, but you know, because in a lot of cases it's very strong and in some cases all you can get. But when you're going to consider a design patent, that's what the clear staircases that Apple has is. So that a design patent is going to apply to anything that's ornamental. So it's going to be, you know, this can be product packaging. If you have very unique product packaging, sometimes that's even considered trade dress, which is like a trademark variation of a patent. Um, if it's so common that people start associating you with this particular type of building, maybe you have a very, I don't know who's listening. Maybe you guys have like a fire hydrant shaped building and that's your signature thing. Maybe you're going to get a trade dress and a design patent and a copyright on that. Maybe all three of those would be eligible. I'm just making things up by the way. I have no idea if it's engineerically possible to do that. But there's definitely lots of, you know, buildings that are, have a signature shape. The Apple Store is a great example. The store itself has so many design patents with it in terms of their layout, the components they use, of course, the interior design components they use, but the glass they use, the way things are laid out, the square footage. So there's lots of things that you can consider getting a design patent on. You don't necessarily need to have a prototype, but it's typically done once a prototype is there. But if you have a very signature type of building, trade dress or design patent would both apply. And then if you have a building that is just something, you know, that you are able to retain the uh, rights to, which would be I think hard for an architect firm, I think developer, the building owner would really be the ones with the rights to get the design patent on the building. But lots of people have collaborations now or maybe there's ownership sharing. You could design patent, patent the building itself or components of the building, like you know, the layout of, you know, the Apple Store, for example, the clear staircases, spiral staircases. I mean that patent has expired. But just different types of components of a building too that you develop can be patented.

Speaker B: You mentioned expiration on patent, so, so can you talk a little bit uh, about that and, and when I would take the extra money and time to actually do a patent or just kind of like leave it alone.

Speaker C: Yes, definitely. So copyrights are pretty low cost and they only take a few months to get. The lifetime of that is typical. It's around 100 years plus the lifetime of the creator. So you'll be safe if you Create it and your family will get some royalties too. And then I'm giving you rough numbers, by the way, but just for ease, you know, around 100 years plus your lifetime and then trademark lasts forever. Brands, you know, if you build a brand for your architect firm or as an architect yourself, or if you have some very special component that you're going to try to trade, dress and say it's a, it's a shape or sculpture that's so signature to me, uh, it's my trademark. Then, you know, that lasts forever. Then you. Patents, you know, design patents or patents last between 15 to 20 years and they are very tricky. The timing of patents is very tricky because you know, for certain types of patents, not necessarily always design patents, but you know, utility patents, other types of patents, you have a one year grace period from the time that you disclose whatever you've invented to file that patent. And then when it comes to utility patents, which I'll, I'll talk about in a second, you can file as a provisional kind of placeholder patent and then convert it within the year to a full on non provisional real patent that'll be reviewed and then issued and you know, examined and then issued. Design patents, you know, they'll be reviewed and then issued. So timing is limited. You never want to file a patent and not be able to financially pursue it for the next couple years because if you, you can also bar yourself from patenting it if you let it fail. You can't go back and say, oh, I didn't have the money back then to finish my patent and I can't bring it again. So the timing of patents is really tricky. And then you don't want to file before you have enough money to actually file it properly. You don't want to file a bad patent because you can bar yourself from fixing it and getting a correct patent. So very tricky with patents, the timing. It's very important, you know, to use proper contracts for all types of ip, but particularly when it comes to the timing of patents, you don't, if you don't use things like NDAs and you're exposed, and even if you're not even exposed, if somebody can prove that you didn't use all the proper language in your contracts and documents, you know, then they can say, oh, well, you publicly disclosed it and you can't get a patent then, so you know, you can invalidate patents that way. So very tricky with the timing and your contracts are again in that case very important. So when is someone going to consider an architect going to Consider getting a patent. Well, when you have some ownership in the building or rights to the building is, the first step is see if you have rights to do that. Because if you're a developer or owner of the building, has rights to it and you go get that design patent, they're probably going to be pretty mad at you. They're probably going to have some contract to use against you. So don't be careful with that. But you know, at any point in time you can really consider getting it. Once you know, you have your idea fully vested. I would say you don't need a prototype, so to speak, but you do need to have it the full concept. And I said I was going to say something about utility patents. So the, the main types of patents are design versus utility design is more for the design structure, very applicable to architects, but also utility patents. Because I see a lot of people right now creating a lot of apps, software tools that are helping, you know, incorporating AI into their practices and this is a ripe time to do so. So if you are at all techie, you should be thinking about this because you're only going to make so much money as an architect and you can make a lot of money making an app. So this is always something to have the wheels turning for. Now is really a ripe time to be developing some very innovative tools using AI and other tech for architects and um, maybe for non architects as well, incorporating concepts or steps in the process. So what you want to think of is do you have the actual concept ready? So whether it's the structural design, like if you are wanting to get a design patent on a vase that you've created, you would actually need to have at least an image in your head and be able to put that image fully onto paper of what that vase is going to look like whether or not you've gone and made it out of clay. So kind of think of it that way. Do you actually have your full concept? Because once you file your patent, you can't really change it up. And then if you have a utility patent which is more of a tool like it has to have some use. It's not just design structural, you want to make sure all of the timing components are right for that. So no public disclosure prior that one year grace period. Uh, if you have any sort of that kind of idea, you should be kind of going over all your contracts and concepts and all that with your patent attorney pretty early on in the process.

Speaker B: So all, all good to know. I feel like when I hear a patent and you uh, you even said we want to make sure you have all of your finances and our ability to kind of pay for the full patent process. How much do patents cost is, is it a range or you know, what, what should we be preparing to take

Speaker C: on for a design patent? Depending on how simple or complex your design is, that it's usually pretty simple because you're just talking about the design itself. It's going to be anywhere from 5 to 10k depending on, you know, where you live and what your communication needs are as a client and things like that. I would say that's the national average, anywhere from 5 to 10k for a design patent. Copyrights, you know, are only a maximum like a couple thousand, so very low cost, um, compared to design patents and then utility patents where it's actually a, either a tool or a, some sort of electrical or software, um, that is much more expensive. That can be 20k plus some anywhere in that like 12 to 40k range. If you just have a simple maybe tool, some like a drawing tool, some sort of new novel pen and maybe it's got no electrical components, it's just mechanical, maybe one or two moving parts. That is going to be on the lower end of course, and then you know, if you have a app software, that's going to be on the higher end. So you, with patents, you never want to be in a situation where you invest into filing your patent and then you're needing, you know, to when you get it reviewed, there's more paperwork involved. When the government, uh, is actually reviewing it, they'll do more inquiries and things like that. So you may have to file an office action response and things of that nature. And you want to have funds to do that. You want to be able to make sure that you can fully pay for the patent process. And also when it comes to filing your patent, that big chunk of money at the front. You also want to make sure you have enough time to deal with your attorney because it's very important that you understand your invention, whatever you've created to the level that you can explain it to someone very in detail. Lots of people pay and then ghost, that's never good to do. And you will always spend so much more if you behave that way. So make sure you have enough time, you know, allotted to, you know, deal with the patent drafting process. And then, you know, when you're choosing between provisional or non provisional and you have all these other questions and maybe other documents you might need reviewed, you want to make sure you can, you know, properly invest into doing that because cutting corners can bite you at the end. And a lot of IP attorneys that you'll work with will have flat fees for everything. But you want to make sure that you know, you have the time, you have all your documents in a row you set aside, again, I'll say you set aside the time to communicate with your attorney and that you can fully pay for any, you know of the variations that you need for your invention. So if you need, if you need a patent, you might also need a copyright, you may also need a trademark. And you really want to have all the layers of protection if you need it. But patents of course are the most valuable type of IP because you can license them usually for the most money or sell them for the most money. So if you're item that you've created, whether it's a building or an app, if your invention is eligible for patent protection, you should definitely get it over other forms.

Speaker B: So we've covered two of the four types of IP that you mentioned. I think, you know, we have a limited amount of time with you today. Thank you again so much for joining us. I think we're going to pass on trade secrets, but I do think that there needs, we need to cover trademarks a little bit. So what should architects be looking at, at uh, trademarking?

Speaker C: So I think in terms of trademarking, most businesses are the same in that they, at baseline they usually have a name, logo, slogan, tagline. So name, logo, slogan, those are kind of the big three. Lots of businesses also have some sort of best selling product or membership name or subscription name or top sellers that they've really branded to be very signature to their business. Um, whether it's a type of house, you know, type of development that they license out, or whether it's a specific service they use and sell or a specific product. So anything that is basically, if your friend opened up an architect firm next door to you and started calling something, something you call your products, service, you know, would people be confused by it and would they uh, perhaps go to your friend instead of you? If you have a maybe package that say, you know, plan review. I, you know, I'm just saying like something uh, maybe you promote, right? And it's a 20k for, you know, plan review. And we're going to review and tell you how to make everything eco friendly. I don't know, you know, whatever the sign signature service might be. Every business is different, right? I've had an architect client who had something like that and so he had a specific name for that service and he would kind of sell that to other, other architects and also lots of developers mostly. And so that particular name he wanted to trademark. So that's something lesser, less important than your name, logo and slogan, but still something that, you know, when you're. When people say, should I trademark this, should I not trademark it? I always say, if your friend opened up, up shop next to you, did the same thing as you called your item, the same thing that you call it, do you think you would lose a customer if they got confused? And if the answer is yes, then that's something to trademark.

Speaker B: And should we always be trademarking the name, logo and slogan?

Speaker C: Yes, your name at least, because your business name, while your business, your actual like LLC or corporation name might be different, but whatever name you're doing business under, branding yourself as, or that department or whatnot as, um, you want to trademark that because that is probably on all of your marketing and materials and your domain. And that's very expensive to change. That is the most expensive usually thing to change for people if something goes wrong. So getting your trademark is kind of like insurance that that will never happen or that you won't have to pay out for it. And also if you maybe have a domain you want or social media username you want, you know, getting your trademark is a way to get it then. So, you know, trademarking is how you can actually own the name. So very useful for your main business name or main brand name, your logo. Usually that's really important to people because it's also on a lot of their marketing materials and things. And maybe less expensive though than your name to change. So less important then. And then your slogan. Lots of people really like their slogan and they don't want anyone to use it. I find that above all else within the same industries, slogans do get copied the most. You know why, uh, people always think, oh, of course I can't use that person's name. But you know, they think they can use the slogan. It's, it's a weird thing. I've just noticed it, uh, that within the industry, very common thing that people kind of like to copy. So, you know, it doesn't even have to be exact, but if they use something similar to it, people don't like it. So trademarking, that is, you know, a way to prevent that from happening. I would say trademarking is a lesser. You can definitely license and do collaborations and things with your brand, but less of an extent, to a less extent than you can with copywriting and patenting. You know, if you can Copyright something or patent something, then there's probably a lot of people in your industry who it would be valuable for, who would pay for the access to it or the, uh, you know, allowance of use of it with your trademark. And, you know, you're investing into your trademark in order to protect your name and protect your marketing and branding investment into that. If you're building up this brand, you're putting in so much time, money, energy, effort into doing so, you wouldn't really want to lose it, even though you probably also don't want to license it and let other people use it. So it's more of a personal kind of internal protection thing, kind of like an insurance policy. Right. Whereas copyrights, patents, those are really things that, for architects in particular, really things that are, um, incredibly valuable avenues to monetize your brand is really protection for your own investments that you're making into your business.

Speaker B: And how much does it usually cost to trademark things?

Speaker C: So it can cost as little as, you know, $1,000. And then, uh, if you have a name that's very defective and just has a lot of issues with it, which a lot of people choose names and they get very married to their name with a lot of issues. But if that's the case, it can be very expensive. It can be 5, 10k, sometimes more, if you really choose a name and want to stick with it. And I have clients that they just are going to go with their name no matter what. So the easiest way to get a trademark, though, is to pick a, you know, bold, unique name that no one else has. And it's very hard for you to know that no one else has it unless you do a full, comprehensive trademark search with a vendor and things like that. But, you know, you want to pick, and then sometimes there's people who have the same name as you and you don't, you know, sometimes it's not even an actual trademark, it's just a trade name. So you can still get the trademark, and even so, you can still get the same trademark as someone else. There's Dove Chocolate, Dove Soap, Delta Airline, Delta Faucet. So trademarking and whether you can get it or not and how much it will cost can vary. The simple answer is it's usually not more than a couple thousand dollars, so long as there's not a lot of defects in your name. But if you've chosen a name with a lot of defects, it is what it is. I always recommend don't get married to a name till it's cleared. So it's Kind of the simple answer to that.

Speaker B: Yeah. All good to know. So we are coming to the top of our hour here. Is there any. I mean, I think there's a lot of different takeaways from this. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you think, you know, with the evolution of it, or, you know, architects being a creative service industry that, you know. A final takeaway for our podcast guests that, that you would like to leave us with today?

Speaker C: Yeah, I'm going to leave you with kind of the list of the most common mistakes I see happen in this industry. And I'll just recap. You know, I know I've talked about some of them, but I think, you know, I'm telling you from experience in the IP world, you either as a lawyer are kind of servicing one type of person, like a family lawyer, they do everything for families, or you work with all industries and you do one specific thing. That's kind of what I do for ip. But in. So I'm saying this specific to the architecture industry. However, this is also very relevant to people you work with, including developers and your clients and owners and other subcontractors, even of the developer. So all of these are mistakes that you can make and run into issues with any of these people and components. And really the biggest mistake is not knowing what ownership rights you have to your ip. So that might be. I've had situations where architects accidentally maybe make a plan that's too similar to something they did for another client and their old client doesn't like it. That happens sometimes. Lots of issues, again, like we talked about with the employee situation, side hustle, side gig situation, and specifically considering equipment usage in this industry. The last one is actually something we didn't touch on, but I think is important is for the people who are actually creating these AI tools. In the architect world, if you're the one creating that AI software that is creating the various renditions and you do not get patent protection through the normal avenue through it. You're just. Maybe you randomly woke up one day and made an algorithm. Don't we all wish we were so smart or made some sort of AI tool? And then you're then putting in your inputs and outputs and creating, so to speak, creating in quotes, architectural works with that, your AI rights to that, plus your AI writes to the software. Whatever program you've created can also be. I've had several cases now where these things have happened. So your rights to that is all really limited. So you want to be very careful where you are investing your resources. When it comes to AI, you want to actually make sure that if you're creating tools and you're creating tech in this space, that you do actually go and patent it so that you have some sort of monetization rights in this, this industry because the law is not favorable. Like I said, AI created work and people think they have all this, you know, they're going to make all this money because they've spent 100k on making this software and they're really upset when that's not the case. So any sort of tech, even a tool, I guess, but you know, it's really tech that's being created right now, whether it's AI, whether it's just any sort of SaaS, any sort of app, um, downloadable or not, you know, you want to make sure that you are, if it's patent eligible, get that patent on it.

Speaker B: Thank you for recapping those other two and adding the third and for joining us here today. We will make sure that our listeners know how to get in touch with you in our show notes. Is there a URL that you want to rattle off in the meantime?

Speaker C: Um, sure, if, uh, you can go to Anna Law. So just a N a N a L a w dot com.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for joining us today.

Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me.