The Exact Formula for Viral Content + Increasing Profitability (Without Burnout) with Natalie Ellis

Speaker A: I've never met anyone who really understands virality the way that you do.

Speaker B: We are having our biggest year ever, uh, in Boss Babe history, revenue and profit wise. So I'm in a sprint season, but I don't think that means I need to be stressed.

Speaker A: A launch season, or whatever that means for you, does not have to feel chaotic. No, it's a choice.

Speaker B: I don't know how to snap out of this. I wake up every single day and the only thing keeping me going is my baby. Even in that moment where it was so hard and I felt so lonely, I just knew I was never gonna give up. There has to be other women like me who are struggling and, um, want to come together and talk about it.

Speaker A: You broke down for us. This formula, that and your words, it's never failed.

Speaker B: The whole secret to Boss Babe's virality success was 3, 2, 1. Virality.

Speaker A: We are counting down to the 2026 Powerhouse Women event, which is happening August 14th, 15th, 16th in Scottsdale. And as we do, I am bringing you some of my favorite podcast conversations with our 2026 speakers. So today, I'm so excited to share this conversation that I had. We actually recorded this back in 2024 with Natalie Ellis. And Natalie Ellis is one of those people who just speak straight truth. No matter if she's talking about business or motherhood or burnout, you feel so seen. But you also feel like you're being guided to know exactly what next steps to take. Because let's be honest, most entrepreneurs start a business for freedom, but somewhere along the way, we end up with a business that cannot run without us. And what I love about Natalie is how honest she is about how she knows that story because she has lived that story. She's not only the founder of Boss Babe, she is now a New York Times best selling author. Her brand new book is incredible. It's called the Freedom Based Business Method, and she serves millions of women around the world. She is literally redefining what success can look like for ambitious women. And this was an interview we recorded back in 2024. And I remember how blown away I was by just how honest and real she was willing to get about her journey of navigating burnout and postpartum depression and the realization that she had built a business that just depended way too heavily on her. So this season forced her to create a new blueprint, one that prioritizes freedom and sustainability and building a business that supports your life instead of consuming it. So whether you are someone who is just starting your business, journey. Maybe you're scaling your company or you're kind of in one of those seasons where you're redefining what success means for you. This conversation and the one that we're going to have at the Powerhouse Women eventually will challenge everything you've been taught about entrepreneurship and success and it will literally show you, give you the exact blueprint. Especially if you're coming to the Mastermind day on Sunday. She is going to do a deep dive session into exactly how to build a business that creates more freedom, not less. So to get all the details and join us August 14th, 15th and 16th in Scottsdale head to PowerhouseWomen event. And in the meantime, enjoy this conversation with Natalie Ellis, founder of Boss Babe and the best selling author of the Freedom Based business Method. We have so much to dive into today with the queen of viral content herself, Natalie Ellis of Boss Babe. I'm so excited to sit down with you and have this conversation.

Speaker B: I can't wait.

Speaker A: So not only are you the founder of Boss Babe, this community of over 4 million women around the globe, you are a mom, you are the founder of CEO Mama, and you're one of those women that I just really love to watch you evolve. And our careers have, have kind of like had this beautiful synergy I think as we saw this need for community in the space for female entrepreneurs specifically. And you are really known for your expertise in building online communities specifically through Instagram. You just came and spoke for our retreat and people are still talking about the. It, uh, was really just this beautiful masterclass of how to take our expertise and turn it into viral content. So we're going to get into that today. But I really want to dig into a little bit of your story if you're okay with that.

Speaker B: Let's do it.

Speaker A: So before Boss Babe, you actually had a supplement company. I don't think a lot of people know this. So take us back to that era.

Speaker B: I did. What's so crazy is the supplement company was called oh My Glow. So bringing it full circle to being a co founder of Glossy blows my mind. I remember Lauren's jaw hitting the ground when I told her that. So, yeah, I mean, I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur. Always wanted to be an entrepreneur. I really saw that as, you know, when some people say, uh, they are either a product of the environment or they're just made this way. I feel like I was just made this way. There was never an option to be anything other than my own boss. I think I'd be a terrible employee anymore. Anyway, and I really wanted to be an entrepreneur because I craved the level of freedom that I believed entrepreneurship would get me. And so when I was graduating university, I got offered a really great management consulting position. It was like one of those fancy titles. I would have moved to London, it would have paid off all my student debt, all the things. And I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And so I decided, you know, I want to take a, ah, calculated risk. I'm actually not a risk taker at all, which I think people find interesting considering I am a serial entrepreneur. I don't like risk. And so I thought, okay, let me take a calculated risk. I wasn't willing to turn the job down because I love an insurance policy. And so I called them and I said, hey, I'm going to go travel the world for a year. Which was a lie. I couldn't afford to travel the world. I'm going to go travel the world for a year. After that, can I come and start my position? So can we do a delayed start date? And they said, yep, that's absolutely fine, have the best time, then come join us when you're ready. And so I committed to myself, okay, in that 12 months, I'm going to get this business off the ground. And I don't know why I thought, uh, creating, inventing a product and getting off the ground 12 months was doable. It was absolutely not. Considering I knew nothing about product. I definitely didn't know how to formulate products, didn't know how to ship products, didn't know how to sell product. I knew nothing about product. I was 21 at the time, I think, but I decided to do it anyway. And so I give myself those 12 months. And as that 12 months was coming up, I had formulated a product. It wasn't ready to sell, but it was really, really close. And that's when I decided, you know what? I think I've created something really amazing here. It was called oh My Go Glow. It was a beauty supplement, which sounds kind of normal now nowadays Back then it wasn't, that was 11 years ago. That wasn't the case, especially in the UK. Like the idea of putting white powder in your smoothies was like, um, what's wrong with you?

Speaker A: Are you selling drugs?

Speaker B: Yeah. So it was just, it was quite unheard of. But I just really believed I had a great product. And I, you know, it was never that that was my sole purpose or anything like that. I love health, I've always loved biohacking, but, but it was more about, I want to Get a business off the ground, I want to just get stuck in. Because every time I read a business book, they say it's all about just going for it. It's all about not second guessing. And so I didn't want to step back and just wait for this idea to be like, oh my goodness, that's my sole purpose. I don't fully believe in that. Anyway. So, yeah, uh, you know, we, I ended up getting off the ground. I moved back in with my grandparents to be able to fund it. And during the time of actually building that business, I had no marketing budget. So that 12 months, you know, there was a lot of back and forth with testing and product development. It was not like I was busy every single day with it. And so in that time, I decided to teach myself how to grow on Instagram. And I never wanted a personal brand. So I grew this kind of faceless

Speaker A: account for again, faceless accounts were a thing exactly.

Speaker B: Just like a, you know, it was like a beautiful Pinterest board. And we started growing, you know, I think by the time we launched, we had 30,000 followers. And we were getting really great engagement, which is a lot of followers. But especially back then, there's a lot of people in your community. And so while I was funding this business, I started doing social media management for people on the side. And that was how I was really funding this. And that was really me getting my start into the world of community building, of social media, of Instagram. And we can kind of go in so many different directions. But it really opened me up to what it can do for you. Because when we launched this business, we were shipping to over 60 countries within just a few months. And then I ended up getting a call from a company called Bootswich, it's Walgreens in the us and they said, we want to stock your product in every store across the UK. It was over 250 stores. Can we do that? And I'm like, sure, I have no idea what I'm doing. I honestly think it was like I thought was a hoax. And I said, yeah, and I figured it out later. Um, and so she actually found me on Instagram. The product buyer found me on Instagram. And that just taught me a lot about the power of Instagram. Um, and you know, I also just want to caveat. It sounds like this business was a huge success on the outside, but in terms of cash flow, I mean, every dollar that was going into business was flowing out of the business. It was not this massive success story. It was really me Finding my feet in business and figuring out what's a cash flow forecast, how do I manage inventory? Um, and I think that's just important to share cause think it can sound a bit like an overnight success. And it really wasn't right. But it taught me a lot about what I was good at. And I think that's the thing that came out of that business most for me.

Speaker A: Yeah. And the, the parallel between, and I didn't mention that in the beginning, the fact that you've joined our mutual friend Lori as co founder of Glocee, which is her beauty hydration supplement line. What a full circle moment. It's just incredible. So then what was the bridge between that and founding boss Babe? Because that's really what most of my community probably would know you for. And that started as something that you didn't even necessarily intend to turn into this thriving business that it is today.

Speaker B: No, I didn't. So I initially got started in this like digital world because Cash Flow was really struggling with a supplement company.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And yes, we were selling product, but my margins were really squeezed and to continue buying stock, it was just, I just needed cash in the business. And I was constantly being asked, can you manage my social media account? There was only so many people I could take on without that becoming my full time thing. And I thought, well, why don't I just create a course I could teach people how to grow on Instagram. And so I ended up creating a course and I sold it to a very small network that I had. Like, I didn't, I wasn't a personal brand. I didn't have this huge following. But I knew I was solving a good product and I was really good at communicating that. And when I launched it, I think we made about $10,000 right away, which I was like, whoa, this is the most money I've ever made. This is amazing. And so that started to open my eyes up to this other world. And I started kind of diving into the world of online communities and realizing while I'd been building my business off the back of Google, there was actually this whole world where people were learning from other people on the Internet. And I thought that was incredible. I had no idea about it. It's so funny that I didn't even know about it till I was in it. But I think that's like, honestly the kind. The way my story goes, the whole time I'm like, I had no idea. I just kind of fell into things. So with what I decided to do was I started growing another instagram account, which was gonna be really about bringing entrepreneurial women together. Because I did feel really alone. You know, all my friends had left university and went down to London to start these fancy jobs, and here I am, like, struggling to even soups to eat. Like, I was not living that life. And I. I just. I remember this one moment in particular sobbing my heart out in my grandma's kitchen and just saying, I don't understand why I'm doing this. It's so hard. And she said to me, if you don't want to do this, you can quit. You know, it's not too late to go back. And her saying that was everything I needed to, to know about the fact I was never going to quit. Because it. Even in that moment where it was so hard and I felt so lonely, I just knew I was never going to give up. And her saying that was almost that, uh, realization for me. And so after that, I decided, you know, there has to be other women like me who are struggling and want to come together and talk about it. And so I started with this online community, and at the time, there was another woman called Alex. She had started the bosswave.in Instagram account with these millennial pink quotes. And it started to get a bit of traction, and she reached out to me and was like, hey, I've seen you're doing this other thing. Would you want to grow this Instagram account for us? Like, I think this could be something. And I said yes. And I was just doing on the side. I was really, really good at it. And I started getting a lot of traction. And, uh, you know, fast forward a few years. I ended up saying to her, can I buy this? Like, I want to turn this into a business. I really believe that I can. And she said, yeah, I think this is meant to be yours. I think you're meant to do this all along. Let's do it. And it's great because I, um, I'm having her on my podcast soon, so we're gonna actually go. I can't wait to hear that, talk about that. Because I think it was so great for her in the way that it was for me, and that was it. You know, the goal with Boss Baby was never for me to teach business. I thought, you know, what the heck do I know about business other than what not to do? But what it was was, let me tell the women about things I do know, which is growing on social media. I can do this with my eyes closed at this point, but then let's bring in other women. Who've been there, done that, that we all selfishly want to learn from, but they're probably not going to say yes to a one on one mentorship call. What if I can bring together a bunch of women and convince someone to come and speak to all of us? At was really the premise behind it and it just took off. And that was really it when I was like, you know what, like, I can really see the momentum here. This is what I'm going to go all in with.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it was at that critical time where Instagram was becoming so much more of the focus for us as far as the social media platform. And I've never met anyone who really understands Instagram and virality specifically the way that you do and the way that you explain it. And you broke down for us at the mastermind, this formula that and your words. It's never failed if someone actually follows this formula guaranteed to go viral. And it's so doable. And so I'd love if you would break that down for us here.

Speaker B: Yeah, I will. So before I go into that formula, one thing I'll share about virality is it's actually a lot simpler than a lot of people believe it is. So the whole secret to Boss Babe's virality success was we were saying things that other women wanted to say but didn't want to say.

Speaker A: Didn't want to be the one to say it.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so they could share our, uh, posts as a way of saying this is what I believe or this is my experience in a, in a world where they felt so misunderstood by everyone around them and they would share that post as a way to put their point of view forward. And virality has never, ever changed. It's that exact principle still. And so that's the one thing that I would say for anyone listening who feels like they haven't unlocked social media growth yet. Answer that question. What is it about what you do that you could start to infuse into your content which would say who your ideal client is and what they stand for and what they want to say without them having to say it themselves? I think that's a really. And it's not an m. Easy question to answer and listen. Success isn't easy. Simple as that. So you know it's going to take some time, but spend time doing it because it's worth it when you figure it out. So that's the, that's the first thing. So the formula is super simple. It's the 10 by 10 formula. It's never failed me. So please don't be my first failure as you're listening. But it's really, really simple. If you can follow it through to the end. Consistency is absolutely key. So what you're going to do is you're going to go and find 10 people, 10 pages, 10 accounts, companies that have the same ideal clients that you want, that are already following them. And so it's not necessarily finding your competitors. It might be, but it's not necessarily that. It's okay, they have the audience that I want to attract. So find 10 of those people. Then go and find that 10 most viral pieces of content, let's say within the last year, year and a half. And the easiest way to do this is just scroll through that page and look at engagement. You know, if that general engagement is 15,000, 15,000, 15,000,. 100,000. Stop. That's viral. That is a viral post copy paste. Put it into a spreadsheet. Once you've done that for 10 people, 10 pieces of content, you'll have a hundred pieces of content. And now what I want you to do is go through that list and either repurpose. So you find a way to repurpose this for your own audience in your own words. You could straight repost and give that person credit and study what it is about that post that went viral. You know, was it the length of the clip? Was it visual hooks that they used? Was it the hook they used to get you to stay till the end? Was it the actual content itself? Was, uh, it the way in which they were summing something up really easy, like what specifically was it? And start to analyze that. And the reason I have people do this, yes, you're going to go viral. You're going to go viral in those hundred days if you post consistently. The main reason I have people do this is because I want to teach you how to think.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I believe when you do that, you don't need me to teach you anything else. You can go and continue creating content on your own field brand. That's really going to land. And so by spending studying this, you're starting to really understand virality specifically for your ideal client. And that's a skill you can, you know, you can pour into anything. You can pour it into your YouTube titles, your podcast titles, you can pour it into when you create pitch decks, like pour it into any of your digital marketing, your emails, that is a really powerful skill to have. I'm a big advocate of learning online marketing and that's a really great way of like getting stuck in and being able to see a pretty quick upside for it.

Speaker A: And I want to also speak to the. I love how you broke down what virality, what viral content actually looks like. Because if someone were to study the virality of Boss Babe, it is that it's as female entrepreneurs, what are the things that maybe we say behind closed doors to our girlfriends about what we wish other people understood? I think what I see people get wrong about virality is thinking that that's the ticket and not knowing then how to leverage it, how to leverage that new attention to actually drive sales. So will you speak to your, your overall strategy with how you leverage the virality of the Instagram, um, account to your email list to where you actually sell? Because this is important, especially when we're talking about how to leverage social media for business growth.

Speaker B: Yes. And listen, I'm just going to say it. There are a million and one accounts that are pretty much copy and paste Boss Babe accounts.

Speaker A: I mean you were the original and

Speaker B: you can tell, you land on the page like, okay, yeah. And they are making no money on the back end.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And they, you know, they're just posting all these quotes that generally aren't their own. And um, they're going viral, they're growing this audience. They've got a pretty significant audience. They're making no money on the back end. So I think that's really important to say, not to put anyone down, but to say you can do that strategy, you can kind of copy that strategy, but if there's no substance behind it, it's never going to be a business. Having a million followers does not guarantee a million dollar launch like it is that, that simple. So with a content strategy, you want to look at it as a whole. And the thing that I share is there's only three types of content. There's content to grow your audience, which is your viral content. There's content to build your brand. That's content that builds that know like and trust factor. Who are you? What do you stand for? What is your expertise? Why am I here? And then there's content to convert, content to sell. And so that's really what's going to make up your content strategy. Now, people often think about their content pillars, the things that I'm going to share, like what are the pillars, is it health, is it lifestyle, all that stuff that's important. But if it doesn't fit into these three types of content, and that's not the primary focus, you might end up just spinning your wheels on a Little bit of a hamster wheel. So these three types of content, the amount in which you'll post each just totally varies on your business goals. So if you're in a season in your business where you really want to get new eyeballs on what you do, you want to grow your audience, then you're really going to be focusing on content to grow and you're going to still sprinkle in their content that builds your brand so that you're not on a follower roller coaster where people follow you and then they drop off as soon as you post a picture of you, you're like, they're like, wait, who is this? Why am I following this account? I'm m leaving. Um, you have to regularly post content to build your brand, which is content that again, like I said, what's your expertise? What do you stand for? And then content to sell. That is content where I would really recommend you take them from your Instagram onto your email list. You can sell through Instagram. I think that's great. I think it's a little bit of a short term strategy personally because we don't know how long this platform is going to be around. You know, we don't know that our posts are going to reach every person that's on our uh, that's following us. We just don't know. Your email list is real estate that you own. And so in my membership at any of my courses I always teach, you have um, a long form platform and you have a short form platform. For me, Instagram is my short form platform. Um, and long form is my podcast, my email list. That's where I own my audience and really that's what my buyers are. And so I would recommend Putting together freebies, PDFs, masterclasses, all of those goodies and hooking up something like manychat posting content that you're getting people continually signing off your email list. That's a mistake that I made in the beginning because I didn't understand that right. So I probably would have stopped building my list way sooner than I did if I'd known this mix. And now whenever I'm putting together my strategy for a whole month, I look at, okay, in any given week, how many pieces of content will be growth, how many pieces of content will be brand building and how many pieces of content will take my audience onto my

Speaker A: email list and does that ebb and flow just depending on what the business goals are? If you're in a launch versus if you're not?

Speaker B: Exactly, yeah, it changes. I would Say every month. So I have a revenue calendar where I look at front end revenue, back end revenue. What does that look like? And therefore, what do my channels need to reflect? What do I need to be doing on Instagram? Podcast, email list.

Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I love the way your brain organizes things. It's so, it really is so simple and so doable for anybody, no matter if they're starting with zero followers or if they're really looking to take it to the next level. So I am, um, excited to talk to you in this specific week because you are in a launch and you are very calm, very much not how people would expect any of us to be, especially if we're running a 7 Ah, figure launch. And I know you've done a lot of work on your nervous system and really probably the best way to say it is your relationship to your business. Will you speak to that? Because I think there is this new era of entrepreneurship where we've all realized that the hustle culture doesn't fit the life that we ultimately wanted this business to afford us.

Speaker B: Oh, I could speak forever on this.

Speaker A: Same.

Speaker B: So, I mean, really, I'm in a sprint season, to be totally honest. You know, between now and the end of January, I'm traveling, I think nine times. I, um, am executing three launches. We are having our biggest year ever in Boss Babe history, revenue and profit wise. So I'm in a sprint season, but I don't think that means I need to be stressed. Like, I, I'm just calm. I'm just, uh, I'm just a compass. And now that I've done all the nervous system regulation work, like, I just understand the power of my nervous system being calm and how that nets so much better results in my business, business. And listen, would I be doing this kind of work? Would I have opted in to do this kind of work if I thought was going to impact my business negatively? Probably not. I'm ambitious. But everyone kept telling me, listen, you know, the more you regulate your nervous system, you probably will find that it will be reflected in your business. And so I really want to try that. You know, a couple of years ago, I just had this really big realization that my priorities were so misaligned, that I was living a life I hadn't designed, which was wild. Cause it was the reason I got into business in the first place. And the best way I can describe it is I was on this magic carpet ride of business success. I had this idea and I blinked and I had built this brand into a household name. I had gotten into so many partnerships that I didn't align with. Um, I had become so busy and burned out and exhausted that I was given away significant amounts of my revenue. Uh, that made zero. Zero sense. But I was making so many decisions from a place of burnout. And as entrepreneurs, when you're in that place, you often thing, I will trade any amount of money for my piece back. And a couple of years ago, I had the realization that I was never going back to that place. I was drawing a line in the sand, and I was going to do things differently. And so I did a lot of nervous system regulation work. It's still part of my practice every single day. And I know what my priorities are. I know what's important to me. And so my days reflect that. You know, I don't just look at, uh, a month and say, this month's going to be busy, so I'll go prioritize my family next month. No, that matters to me now. That matters to me in the present. Why am I going to sacrifice what I truly care about for a quick win? It doesn't make sense. And so I put everything I care about first. And it's interesting because I think it fuels me more. And I've just gotten a lot smarter with the way that I work. In the past, I felt like I would throw so many things at the wall and just think, you know what, the more that I throw, the more is gonna stick, and it's not the case. Like now I pair everything back and I just think about what are the most impactful things I can do. Where's the most impactful place I can spend my time? You know, if I have a limited amount of time, how can I maximize that? And I think in that kind of way, and it works. So I don't know if I answered your question. It was kind of like a roundabout way of saying I've chosen to accept something other than busyness and burnout.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, it absolutely does. Because it's the mindset behind the change in action. And unless we can tie it to. I love how you said that if you hadn't heard that this could potentially optimize your business, maybe you wouldn't have tried it. Same. And I would love to hear what that practically looks like in a day now. So when you say prioritizing family, even in a launch season, I'm, um, I can just hear people thinking, okay, well, give me a picture. What does that look like? When you woke up on open cart day, what did your day look like, like, compared to how it might have looked like in another season open card day.

Speaker B: Uh, so I think we open cot at 6pm yeah, we were doing a late ah, webinar so we opened car at 6pm that day was really chill. I just um, I checked in with my team. I mean I had my mornings for my family. I always do. I checked in with my team just to make everything, make sure everything was on track, everything was scheduled as it should. Everything was going to go out and then I just spent the day with my family self, self care, really just getting my energy right because I was going to deliver a webinar uh, at 6pm Which I know is always a lot of energy output. So then I did that open cart and then I delivered a webinar for the next two days and you know, that was what I focused on. And I already scheduled my emails, I'd scheduled my social content. That was good to go. Um, so yeah, it's kind of. My life's kind of boring, honestly.

Speaker A: Well and I'm like that sounds like my dream. But uh, maybe that makes me boring too. I, I also love how you speak to that you had done all the prep work. So it's not just that you show up in launch week just relaxed. It's putting in the prep work ahead of time, working with your team, dialing everything in so that you can and to realize that I just want everyone listening to feel the expansion of knowing that a, uh, launch season or whatever that means for you, whether like for me it's an event season, does not have to feel chaotic. No, it's a choice space. And it's ultimately how we design our life to make that moment. Those moments when we have to show up at our best, either feel chaotic and stressed and anxiety inducing or feel really grounded.

Speaker B: Yeah, freedom can feel like spaciousness and flow, but that's as a result of systems and structure. To build freedom, you have to build systems and structure. That's the only way you're going to have that freedom. Otherwise, if your entire calendar looks like space and flow without any of the systems and structure, you're going to be a mess. You're going to be behind on deadlines, you're going to be scrambling at the last minute, you're going to be really stressed. Your cortisol spiking, your cramming, your team are just constantly feeling like, oh, whirling dervish. Like no one knows what's going on. That's not fun for anybody and that's a recipe for stress. Systems and structure will give you the freedom that you're looking for. So, you know, January, I know what my entire year looks like. I know what all of my promos look like on the front end, the back end. Is there space for change? Yes, of course, there's always space for change, but I generally know that. And the reason I think that's important is the health of our business is really directly related to the health of our profit. And so we have to think in terms of, let me plan my revenue, therefore, let me plan my expenses. Cool. I'm netting out in a place that feels really good what systems and structures are required for me to get there. And so I put all of that in place so that I can be here podcasting, knowing that behind the scenes, my launch is just ticking along, running as it should. You know, right after this, I'm driving with my husband to dad Dallas. We're going to go do one of those pre nouveau scans again. I try and get them every couple of years. Um, we're going to have an early date night, and then I'll. We'll come back in the morning. Like, I just don't believe that working 247 is going to make me any more successful because I have done the groundwork. I, you know, I'm not a beginner entrepreneur, and I'm not just coming out the gate saying, okay, cool, I'm going to have space and flow and attract everything my way. I don't think it works like that. But as a beginner entrepreneur, you can still, okay, let me plan my year. Uh, let me put my systems and structure in place, and there'll be a little bit more hustle that will be required. And listen, I'm. I'm launching a book next year. Hopefully there's going to be some hustle required in that. I've never done it before, and so I'm not afraid of that. But I'm not going to let it rock my world and pull me away from everything that I care about.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's. It is. It starts with that planning. Even if the plan changes. I think just getting into the discipline of planning it. Something else you talked about with our retreat this week was knowing your enough point, and we were talking about this with the way you plan. I also want you to speak to this element because I think it's easy to fall into this mindset that if I did X revenue this year, my goal needs to be 10x revenue within the next 10 years. And that's also a contributor to this feeling of burnout, is thinking we Always need to chase the next milestone when that may not actually be an aligned goal.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's so interesting. I see a lot of us running freedom based lifestyle businesses with a Silicon Valley playbook, and it doesn't really make sense because if your goal is not to continuously raise money and boost your valuation, if your goal is not to exit, if your goal is to have a personal brand, if it's to have a freedom based lifestyle business, then why are you trying to grow at all costs or grow at the levels that all of these Silicon Valley companies are, that, you know, quite often, quite frankly, are making no profit and actually, you know, aren't freedom based businesses at all. They have founders that are completely chained to their desks. But we are running on that playbooks. I think that those playbooks are often the loudest and I think there's this misconception that if your revenue is not growing, then there's something wrong with you as an entrepreneur that you're not doing things right. I just call bullshit on all of it. Like, I've had years where my business has stayed the same. I've had years where my business has been lower. I'm having a year right now. My big business is bigger than ever. But I'm not really bothered about am I growing? Am, um, I competing against myself? It's just continuously, am I building something that I love? Does this fit into the reason I got into business in the first place? Is this helping me build the lifestyle that I want to live? If so, great. You know, can I impact more people while doing that? Okay, great. But if it is going to come at the detriment of my relationship, lips my health, then it's a no. It's categorically a no. And I just, I had this realization a couple of years ago and I told you I changed everything. You know, I remember sitting at my desk, my baby had her. She was, I think six months old and she had her first cold, which is so hard to deal with as a new parent. I remember she was crying and we had a nanny at the time. I was on a meeting and I was not in. Let's just say I was not enjoying the meeting, put it that way. Plus, you know, I was going through postpartum anxiety and depression at the time. So mentally I was really struggling. I was on this really shitty meeting and my baby was crying in the other room. And on that call, I felt my entire body leave my body. Like I. I almost felt as though part of me just like drifted up into the corner of the room, and I was just watching myself, and the words came out my mouth, I quit. I'm done. I'm done. And that was it. And, you know, I got asked in the call, do you mean it? Do you need time to think about it? I said, no, I'm done. And I'm going in the next room because my baby needs me.

Speaker A: So you actually said it on this call?

Speaker B: Oh, I said it on call. I fully left my body, and I just heard the words come out my mouth. And, um, I walked into next room, I grabbed my baby, and I just sat there with her. And I just thought, what are you doing, Natalie? You are sitting holding this baby that you have dreamed about having. I mean, since you were a little girl, you married your soulmate. You are living in your dream house. You are more financially free than you ever thought you would be at this age. What are you doing? Why are you sitting on a call like that? Dealing with the things that you've been dealing with? What are you doing? And it's almost like the higher version of myself that could get out of this postpartum fog that I was in was giving me the biggest pep talk. And that's when I realized I had more than reached my enough point. But I was still acting as though I hadn't. I was still running my business as though it was completely brand new. And I was at the beck and call of everybody else else. You know, I was putting everyone else's priorities before my own. I, uh, was fully in people pleasing mode and unwilling to be disliked, unwilling to rock the boat in any of my relationships. And I just had that moment where I just thought, enough. Enough's enough. And I've never gone back, and I never, ever will. And I share that. It's a personal moment, but I share it because I hope that other people don't need to go through that. Because making that decision and going through with everything that meant was incredibly painful. And it was hard. And I think if I'd realized this sooner, probably it would have been a lot easier for everyone.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I share it to say, as you are on your journey of building your business, know when enough is enough. You know, stop taking on all the clients if, you know, you don't need to. Stop saying yes to promoting everyone's thing just to make them happy. Stop pushing for growth at all costs just because you think that you should, like, bring it back to yourself and ask yourself, when is enough good enough? And it's fine to go beyond that. Everything else is a bonus. But not at the sacrifice of everything that you've wished for. You know, I seen a quote that it was like the version of you ten years ago wished for everything you have right now, but the version of you right now is wishing for everything you'll have 10 years from now. And so you can't stop for a minute just to appreciate it. And that really landed for me. And I. I think about that all the time. And I think that's the reason that I am so cal. Because I just don't make a lot of things mean anything.

Speaker A: M. For me, I get the sense that you've done a lot of healing, a lot of inner work in order to get to this perspective, because it's easy for those of us who are really ambitious to be driven from a place of pain. And that feels very different than how you're driven now. I don't think I've ever really heard you speak about that. That. What has that healing journey looked like for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's been a long journey. You know, one thing I love to share is the Hoffman process was completely transformational for me. And I'd done a lot of therapy, uh, plant medicine, things like that before that. But I would say that process kickstart, kickstarted my healing journey and, like, really took me to the. The depths of the patterns that I had that I really wanted to work on healing, healing. And since then, I've been very consistent in therapy and things like that. But I would say my biggest healing journey came from postpartum depression because I, you know, up until that point had very much been the kind of person that, like, you just figure it out, you don't feel good. You know, you wake up the next day and you just get at it. Like, I've always had that mindset. There was nothing that could keep me down. And my postpartum anxiety and depression was the one thing that I did. Just couldn't snap out of. It makes me so emotional. Just thinking back to the person that I was. Like, I just remember. I remember the anxiety in my body being so intense, being so intense that it was almost painful. And I remember going and lying on the cold tile floor in the middle of the night because that the. The coldness of the floor took the pain out of my body. And I was sobbing to my husband, just saying, I don't know how to get out of this. I don't know how to snap out of this, because I wake up, up every single day, and the only thing keeping me going is my baby. And a lot of people don't talk about postpartum depression in this way, but it affects so many women, and it affects a lot of women who are super ambitious and really high achieving because we're very used to being able to control everything. We're very used to being in control. We're very used to being so driven and just keep on, um, going. And we can often push everything down. And going through what I went through with my birth, and right after that, I was just in a place where there was no pushing down to be done and I had to face everything. And the way I see it is like every layer I ever put on myself of like, I should be like this, I should do this, fell apart. And I was just this empty shell. And I just rebuilt from that place. And it wasn't one thing that helped me. I mean, I did, uh, you name it, I did it and tried it and I've built. Built myself back up from that place. And I think I've just been so discerning about every layer that I'm willing to put back on myself after that point because I never want to get to that place again where I question everything about my identity that is so

Speaker A: real, you know, whether it's a motherhood journey or something else that just takes us to that point of not knowing who we are anymore. And. And it's. It's scary, I think, as those of us who've always had a plan, but it's also so freeing.

Speaker B: It's really scary when your entire identity is challenged and you've always been the person with a strong sense of who you are. It can feel like you're never going to get out of that place. And to even to be in the questioning of I don't know who I am as really ambitious women is so hard because like you said, we're always used to having a plan and we're always used to having an answer. And when there is none and you just have to sit in the. In the muck, it's really challenging.

Speaker A: What's your advice to someone who feels just so seen right now, listening to you share that they're in that moment and something had them press play on this specific episode. What would we even give them as a next step or a little glimmer of hope?

Speaker B: The first thing I would say is please get help. Please find a professional that can hold space for you while you figure out who you are. I think that's really important even for them to normalize how you're feeling and to support you through That I think that's absolutely essential. And the second thing, which I think no one wants to hear, is you have to give yourself time. I just kept trying to rush through it. And the more I tried to write rush through it, the faster I'd end up right back what felt at the beginning. And I think you have to really sit in it and sit in the mess to be able to learn the lessons you're supposed to learn. And coming out of the other side of it, I do now know why I had to go through it. But if you'd asked me at the time, even. Even if you'd said to me, you know what, two years from now, you're going to be in such a much better place. All of this stuff, do you want to keep going through it? I would have said, no, just let's stop. Like, I don't. I can't do this. But time is the biggest healer with all of that stuff. So if you do have that professional support, you just kind of have to sit in it and question everything and follow your gut a lot of the time. Because if you're being told it's the end of certain chapters, you have to listen to that and you have to really honor, uh, the place that you're in and really not rush through it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's the hardest piece is the identity piece, like you said, is so much of the identity that's get that gets built as we're building these businesses is one that may not be the identity we're meant to embody in the future. And it feels really, really terrifying to let go of it. I'm in one of those phases right now, and a lot of people don't really know because I don't think you can see everything behind the scenes that I. I've pulled back a lot, and I've been really quiet. And it was actually. I got your email the other day, or maybe it was a social post, sharing about just the incredible business successes you're having this year. And it was one of those moments where I was like, fuck, yes. Like, because I know some of the shit you've been through to see you on the other side. And in that moment, I remember my intuition being like, yeah, and you're going to write an email and share where you're at right now, which is, we're down $100,000 this year. We're actually scaling back so much because I don't have the capacity to show up in the way that I normally would. And that is okay. It's actually necessary right now because nothing is more important than my mental health and me taking care of myself. Not at the expense of, or I'm not going to put the business success ahead, any of that. And I really want people to hear that. You know, you've had those seasons and now you're on the other side of it. I'm in one of those seasons now. I will get to share later on when I'm on the other side of it. But don't ever mistake for a moment that someone you look up to on the Internet hasn't gone through a really, really hard season because we're not always able to share it. I'm not even really able to share right now what is going on behind the scenes until it's time to be shared. But it's been that kind of a season. And I'm so grateful for you speaking to that because it is real. And I've never felt less like the version of myself that I ultimately want to be. But when you said you stripped it all back and it gave you this perspective, to know now that once you started to add things in again, you can, you can feel it. You can feel what actually isn't meant to be added back in. And what is, is that was what I needed to hear today. So I know that really speaks to someone else too, who's just in it right now.

Speaker B: Well, thank you for sharing that. That's really powerful. And it's. It's so interesting going through something like, call it a dark night of the soul, to see other people go through that, it's really hard. But then deep down I'm like, I'm so glad you're going through it because what's waiting for you on the other side is, is so much better than it's ever, ever, ever been. And you know, you can't have the light without the dark. And I think the darker it gets, the lighter and brighter it's gonna be. But it just, it's hard to go through. And I, and I do think the best thing that we can do for ourselves in that season is really honor it and not try to, to band aid it with short term things. You know, this will make just the short term a little bit easier. Let me throw this band aid on. It's like, like you can keep putting band aids on. The cut's still gonna be there. So you can either rip all the band aids off and let it heal, or we can keep delaying the process. Yeah. And oh my God, when I tell you I was Fighting so hard to delay the process.

Speaker A: We used all the band aids in the house.

Speaker B: There was none. Like, I was just like gripping on to every sense of my old identity that I had. I was so, I mean, the tightest grip and I was full, forced and to, to let go. Uh, and I think that's what life does sometimes. It's like, well, yeah, you've had a few nudges. You know, it's called me a surprise to you. But when you've had those nudges and you don't listen, you're like, oh, great, I have no choice, okay. And it's painful. And for me, you know, one of the biggest things that I had to let go of during that season was people pleasing because I had to be selfish. And that was really hard. I think, uh, you know, a lot of us feel that as like high performing women, we try and be everything to everyone and we often up that way. And it's why we're so effective and resourceful and like, we're always the strong one. We're always the friend that can be lent on. You know, if there's more to do, we'll expand our capacity. That is who we are. Yeah, but a lot of that comes down to people pleasing because it's like, well, who are you upsetting if you say no? What boat are you rocking if you actually speak your truth? What relationship will dissolve when you say what's not working? And so much of that I had to face. And I would say that was one of the hardest pieces.

Speaker A: I think it's actually a rite of passage in this entrepreneurial journey. And that lesson will keep showing up, like you said, until, until we address it, because we can't be in our full purpose until we break some of those patterns.

Speaker B: Amen.

Speaker A: You're just one of my favorite people to connect with on all things business, life, motherhood. What are you most excited for in this moment? Next season for you, either as an individual or actually, I want to know. Just not us. Business aside, what are you most excited for? For just you as Natalie?

Speaker B: I would love to have a second baby. So that is definitely something that I'm thinking about. And I'm trying not to control the timelines too much, but we're Capricorns.

Speaker A: We try. We really try.

Speaker B: Freak trying to do that. Um, that's what I'm most excited for. I'm most excited about. About just seeing my little girl grow up and hit all the milestones that she is. I'm excited about the way in which my Marriage has evolved and changed over the past couple of years and investing in that. I am excited about potentially exploring moving to a new state. Um, that's something that we're looking at. And none of this is in a big rush, but I. I feel all of that coming. I feel like next year might be a year where a lot of things change personally, and that feels exciting.

Speaker A: That's so exciting. Especially on the other side of leaning into a change that maybe we didn't embrace as fully.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, where's the best place for people to connect with you? That always feels like such a trivial question for everyone who already is aware of the Boss Babe account. Where do you love for people to connect with you personally?

Speaker B: Probably our podcast. The Boss Baby podcast. Yes.

Speaker A: Yes. By the way, chart topping. I think every time I go and look, it's like you and Lori and all of our girlfriends friends just slowly, just knocking those dudes off the entrepreneurship. But which we love the guys as well. But it's really exciting to see all of my friends at the top of the entrepreneurship podcast charts.

Speaker B: I know.

Speaker A: So congratulations. Really.

Speaker B: Yeah. So that's probably the best place. And then, um, bossware.com also, your emails

Speaker A: are some of my favorites to read.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Like the ones that I actually have come to my primary email inbox.

Speaker B: That's good.

Speaker A: That's saying a lot. We all know it. We all know it.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: We'll link everything in the show notes, of course. So the last question I want to ask is just an opportunity for you to celebrate yourself. And it's something I don't often do enough. We just call it a powerhouse moment. And it can be anything, big or small. I usually just ask what's the first thing that comes to mind when I say what is a recent powerhouse moment that you want to celebrate yourself for right now?

Speaker B: I signed a book deal that. That I have been manifesting the exact number, everything that I've been manifesting for like 10 years. So that feels. When did you sign it Moment. A few months ago.

Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. I had no idea. I knew you were working on a book, but congratulations.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: I can't wait to read it. And you'll have to come back and talk all about it.

Speaker B: Oh, my God. I would love to. Thank you.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me, Sam.