Yapping as a Service: How Founders Turn Opinions Into Pipeline | Sonia Baschez, Fraction CMO at Yapping as a Service

Speaker A: This podcast is brought to you by B2B better. Most B2B podcasts rack up downloads, but they never move the needle on Pipeline. At B2B better, we build own media systems that sales teams actually use to close deals. We've helped companies turn their podcasts into revenue engines, shortening sales cycles, improving outbound reply rates, and directly influencing millions in pipeline. So if you're tired of content that looks good on paper but doesn't drive business results, visit b2b-better.com to see how we do it differently. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Pipe dream in our 1 in 100 series. I'm very excited today to be joined by an old friend of mine who was originally a guest on the first iteration of this podcast when we called it B2B better. Way back when. Um, Sonia from Yapping as a Service. Welcome back. It is good to see you.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's good to see you, too. I don't. I don't like being called an old friend, but fine.

Speaker A: There might be a better. Might be a better way of phrasing that. Yes. Um, well, look, I mean, just to put some context into the time, it's been, you know, like, we were just talking before we started recording here. I think the last time we done the interview on B2B better, we both didn't have, you know, children, and now you've got two and I've got one and went, uh, through a couple of different jobs since then. And, uh, we're very excited to have you on to talk about Yapping as a service, which I love, both as a phrase and as an acronym. Why don't you tell us, uh, a little bit about yas? What does it mean, um, and why should people be thinking about it?

Speaker B: Yeah, I guess it kind of just came from the fact that, um, I kept seeing founders on social media kind of complain that they either aren't getting, uh, you know, enough distribution, they're not really talking about things, you know, this whole idea of, like, the pressure to have to build in public. And my response was like, well, yeah, like, you have to do marketing to, you know, get your product out there, get people to know what your product is, what it does, how it does it. And one of the best ways to do that is you as a founder, to be out there talking about it. But it just required this, you know, um, additional time for them to go out there and talk about it. And a lot of them were like, well, I just want to focus on the product. I just want to build. And there Was a time when that was acceptable because it's like your product was good enough, everybody would see it. But now there are so many products, especially in the age of AI, so many of the same types of products that people are like, well why would I care about yours versus the others? So we started seeing this whole idea of founder let comms, um, of them, you know, going direct and you know, talking themselves. And if you build up an audience, then that audience would then pay attention to your product. Um, but a lot of founders found that difficult. Right? They found it difficult to be out there talking about their product, talking about themselves. Um, so that's kind of where I come in, uh, where I help founders figure out like a couple like content pillars that relate back to why they're building the product, the insight for why they're the best team to be building the product. Um, and start talking about those and essentially make you into a thought leader with your own words. Um, and make it interesting enough that people actually want to pay attention, which I think is the hard part.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I love this because it really talks to kind of like the whole kind of sentiment and thesis that we have here at Pipe Dream, which is like your biggest, your biggest differentiator. Uh, I used to say in service based businesses that were commodities, but I think increasingly also in product led businesses is and are your people and your point of view. Right. You know, and so if I'm looking at, you know, whether it's an accountant, you know, or whether it's, I'm looking at, um, I don't know, a piece of productivity software, whether I'm looking at a service, service offering or whether I'm looking at a set of features, you know, eventually all kind of blends into one. And then I'm left asking myself, well then I'm just going to be looking at price, you know, and then it's a race at the bottom and who wants to be in that race. And so what you're saying is that you're building your business and have built your business around this idea of like differentiation through thought leadership, um, which I know we could spend a lot of time talking about.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, one thing I'll say is we're also starting to see a lot more founders come from the industry that you know, um, they're trying to build for. Right. So we're seeing um, actual lawyers build legal AI. We're seeing actual like manufacturers make like manufacturing software that they know they need in that industry. So that's always going to be a better um, insight and like, better, you know, a warmer intro, say, than like the folks that aren't lawyers that are trying to build, you know, legal software. Um, so I think that's like an insight that people want to know. Like I want to know that I can trust that the person that is building this AI for me actually knows what they're doing and actually knows what they're talking about and isn't going to get me into hot water because. Because it started hallucinating some legal cases that didn't exist. Right. Um, so in the age of AI, so much of the trust factor goes back to people and that's where like the human centered messaging really makes a difference. So especially if you're building an AI, like bringing it back to why you know that your AI is going to do better than, you know, ChatGPT or, you know, even Claude. Right. Cloud is, is good, but it's not that good. Um, so that's what you should be talking about.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Right. It's like having trust that the person sat across the table from you has been there and done that. Right. They're going to be able to help you identify the problems that they may experience and help you uncover the challenges. Sorry, the opportunities. I should say that maybe they haven't thought about. I want to get into specifics. Right, and you've touched on some of this already, which is, you know, around the question of why. Right, why thought leadership? Why put yourself out there and particularly in some of these industries that you just referenced. Right. Law and manufacturing. Um, historically, maybe, perhaps, perhaps been a hesitancy to put yourself out there. Um, an uncomfort, a discomfort in being a voice and a thought leader in your space. I'd love for you just to run me through to the people who are listening to this, who are maybe considering to do thought leadership, why they should do that, why it's important over investing their marketing dollars in any other kind of marketing channel, be it events, be it aeo Geo, SEO, you know, why thought leadership?

Speaker B: The honest answer is that it's the least amount of time that a student CEO can spend on marketing. That, um, I've tried out, right? I've done the event stuff, I've done the, you know, gosh, like there's just so many marketing things, the AEO SEO type stuff. Um, but I've found that, you know, doing this thought leadership thing of even spending 15 to 20 minutes with like the founder and CEO and talking about what's happening in the industry, what's changing, um, what you're building to address what's changing. Um, is the best way to position your company as knowing what you're talking about. Um, because it's coming directly from the source and directly from the person who knows best what's happening. Right. I'll give you an example. Um, right now there's, um, all this stuff happening with like, age verification and like this idea that, you know, children need to be protected online. Right. Um, I'm working with a client that like, works in that space. And a lot of what we talk about is that the way that the laws are getting communication or the proposed regulations are getting communicated or are from people that don't know how they actually function when you put them to work. Right? So there's just all this missing, uh, you know, work that's like, that can be done by being, getting that explained to through thought leadership. Um, and then that's where we're seeing all like, the rise of impressions and like, you know, engagement, um, that's happening on social media is by him being like, actually this isn't how it works, you know, when you put it into practice. And the reason why big tech companies are pushing for this is because it ends up benefiting them and that like, what you're intending to do is not what's actually going to happen. And there's so many industries where this is the case, right? Where it's like, um, things start moving in a certain direction and like, the people that know best aren't being vocal enough to let the rest of us who don't know anything about what's happening or think that something sounds good. Right? Like it sounds good to protect the children. Um, but like, that's not how it would actually function if you were to put it in place. Um, so that's where we need those thought leaders to come out and say, like, no, like, let me break down how this actually works. Where I come in is I take all like the, you know, legal jargon and the regulation, like, you know, terminology and make it easier for regular people to understand and find it, um, enticing. Right. That's where it's like, you do need that person and usually that's a marketer that can come and help you translate that into regular human speak that makes it interesting for, for everybody else to understand and then makes it so that they care about what you're actually selling. Um, and then bring it back to the product.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you touched on a really interesting point which is around these kind of subject matter experts, these practitioners These operators being these kind of huge, uh, fountains of knowledge that otherwise and historically has kind of gone untapped. Um, I used to always say in my previous company I worked at, before setting up the agency, we worked in broadcast tech. Uh, and we were plugged into every major rights owner, rights holder, broadcaster, league, team, federation, globally doing some amazing work. But we never, it's not that we didn't talk about it like we had case studies, but I always, I always, it always rubbed me up the wrong way that, you know, I was reading trade media who were trying to explain what's happening in the industry and often doing so, lacking knowledge, context, real world experience and so giving a slightly distorted view of what's happening. Whereas here we are like actually doing the, do like making the things happen, understanding the problems, the challenges, the opportunities and not talking about it other than in a way which felt entirely self serving. Like we're doing a case study, we're doing a press release. And what you're talking about here is kind of, if I'm understanding correctly, like flipping that on its head. It's not, here's us talking a lot about what we know and what we can do.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And like why we're the best. It's more about these are the things that you should be aware of. These, this is how you should be looking at these problems. Um, and by extension you should trust us because we're demonstrating we know what we're talking about. Am I understanding that right?

Speaker B: Yeah, basically it's like, how do we, um, put it into your everyday context of how it actually affects you and then how we're actually improving your life with our product. And I will say that, um, the, the biggest, you know, thing that I found that founders kind of cringe against is like, oh, putting myself out there and being cringe. Right. Um, and so like a way to kind of think about that is that like, it's not about the company, it's not about you, but it's about the industry as a whole. Um, and like what's happening, um, there that affects everybody else. And that's where they start to get a little bit more like interested in talking. Because it's like all of a sudden they're like, I do actually have a lot to say about this. I've just never known how to get it out. Um, and so that's where, you know, the yapping as a service comes in. Right. We, um, you know, make that into newsletters. We you know, get them onto, um, creating video content for it. Um, the video Part is like the harder part. Right? Much like I'm sure you find with, like, the podcast is like, oh, I have to, like, be on video and, like, talk about this. Um, um. But that's where people are getting their information from. If you look at social media, um, you know, TikTok reels, they've all kind of, you know, become this huge thing because that's what people are defaulting to. You got to go where the audience is. Right. Um, and it's okay to be cringe that that actually works to your benefit because it shows, um, people that, like, hey, you're being authentic and you're being, um, you, um. Like, I just saw a stat come out, um, yesterday showing that Gen Z, like, if they know that something is, um, AI, um, like a picture is AI, um, it completely turns them against the product. Like, they're, no, thank you. I don't, you know, if you don't trust me to see what it actually looks like, then I don't want, like, to even, like, think about your brand anymore. So that's something that, like, we should all be using to our advantage. Like, be human, be authentic. Like, make mistakes. It's okay to have typos. It's okay to not say something perfectly the first time, um, because then people know that it's an actual human talking to them, um, and not, you know, an AI. So, you know, these are all things that, uh, we can all be thinking about to improve the marketing of our product or service.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I want to. I want to start. I want to use that as a segue to kind of move into some of the practicalities that are required in order to kind of pull off the type of service that you're offering for your clients. And I think, you know, maybe where we can start is around this idea of, you know, as I understand it, you know, and what you're saying to me before this call. You know, you sit down with your clients every couple of weeks, 20, 30 minutes, you know, you're asking them questions, allowing, um, them to kind of shift, uh, share their perspective on the questions that you're asking them, and then going away and kind of packaging that up into the content that they can put out across their channels. And I don't know about you, but I think that does seem to be resonating with the clients that we're working with here at B2B. Better, if for no other reason than just the speed. The speed that it takes to vocalize thoughts, even if they are messy, is three, four, five times quicker. Than actually sitting down and, and typing them out. Um, and particularly I would imagine for busy, the busy executives that you work for. Um, that is the case. So kind of talk me through what a typical like uh, engagement looks like for you and your clients that has them go from nothing to a finished output or outputs that they can then put out across, across their channels.

Speaker B: Yeah, so the main package that I promote is this, you know, um, the yapping as a service, um, where it's a bi weekly newsletter, um, that you know, we'll sit down and have those conversations. So what I'll do is, um, we'll be on Riverside and have a conversation where I'm asking them questions about the research that I've done about what's happening in their industry at that time. Usually you can find something that has like crossed over into like the mainstream. So like, let's talk about that. And you know, um, we then pair it up with any product features or releases that you're currently working on or are about to launch. Um, to pair it up with having like a fully formed like newsletter about like, hey, these are the thoughts from the CEO. Here's what's happening in the industry that make it relevant. Here are other things that people are talking about, um, to kind of make it more, you know, fully fleshed out. And not just like here's a CEO giving his thoughts about like this thing, but you know, really having those like product updates. I'll say that a lot of companies aren't even putting out product updates anymore. They're just like, you know, sometimes they'll put out a case study here and there, um, and then they forget that they still have to continue marketing to their current users. Um, especially if you are, you know, not retaining them as much as you would like. Um, so using all that that you're already building and making sure that your current audience and your, you know, future audience knows about it works, um, you know, both ways to bring them back. So then I'll, you know, basically write out the um, you know, the newsletter, um, get like their input of like, yes, this is what I said. And it's usually because I'm talking to you like as an interview. Um, it's actually coming from your, your mouth the way that you think the way, you know, I, I just kind of like position it, you know, to make sense for everybody else. And then we'll put out the newsletter and then we'll put out some video content as well on social media. Um, but every client kind of wants something different. So there are like additional things that we can, you know, put into that. Just, you know, doing more, you know, social media marketing, where we're actually putting that onto the various channels, um, expanding, um, the, um, you know, the video content that you're putting out to actually make it, you know, longer form. Um, but what I'm actually finding is that, ah, a lot of the clients, um, end up being like, well, I'm doing all this thought leadership. What can we do now? And then that's where the, you know, PR angle kind of comes in, where it's like, now I can be pitching you to podcasts and to like, newsletters, and I can start pitching you to the media as like a source, um, that can talk about these topics. And, you know, journalists are always looking for new voices, um, especially if they really know the industry to like, you know, walk them through, like, what this actually means. Um, and so it's like this, you know, bigger package that comes from the thought leadership. Right, so think about that. Where it's like, you're starting small, which is like me putting my thoughts out to the world, and all of a sudden your thoughts are making a difference to a wider audience because they're getting picked up by, by, you know, people that are in that space, like podcasters, substackers, all that, and then even journalists in the, you know, bigger media landscape.

Speaker A: Okay, so we've talked about why it is that investing in thought leadership, yapping as a service is a good idea. We've talked a little bit about the practicalities of what that looks like, how you go from, from zero to one. I want to, I want to talk a little bit about measurement and defining success because, you know, certainly the kind of clients that we speak with here are B2B better. Uh, the question mark always comes back down to ROI. And so if we're going to be spending money on developing this type of content, if we're going to be paying you, uh, three, four, five, six grand retainer every month, how do we know it's working? What are the milestones and the markers that we're looking at to tell us that? I'm curious to get a sense from you as to when you're put that question. What is your response? How are you helping your clients evaluate the success of these kind of programs?

Speaker B: Um, there's a variety of things. So, um, first, obviously are, you know, the analytics that come from social media. Like, we can tell when something is hitting, you know, better or worse. What, um, I like to say is social media is the easiest way to Test messaging for people, um, that you can then bring back to your, you know, user base. So, you know, we'll test things out there, and then they'll, you know, we'll then incorporate that into, like, the newsletter or, like, the video content that they're, you know, talking about. What I've seen as well is, um, you do have to be good at actually promoting the content, right? So I've had, you know, some clients where it's like, okay, we start, you know, putting out the. The podcast, but then, like, um, or we start putting out the video content and the newsletters, but then we don't actually, like, promote it on social media, right? It's just like, we keep it as an internal email newsletter. It's like, okay, but you're missing out on all the people that could be learning about it that aren't reading your email, right? So as soon as we start putting that as, like, a LinkedIn newsletter, you know, they've started to get, um, you know, clients that they've been trying to pitch on being like, hey, I saw this piece that you put out on, um, you know, LinkedIn, like, and they start referencing it. So it shows that they're reading it in a different medium, and then they're bringing it back into the conversation that they're having to, you know, have sales calls. Um, so that. That's been, like, one of the biggest ones where it's like, you know, the CEO came to me and they're like, hey, you know, um, a prospective client came back to me and said that they saw my newsletter on LinkedIn, referenced it back to me, and told, you know, told me I had brought up some really good points. Um, so that shows it's like you're reaching, you know, your prospective clients in a different way that they wouldn't have seen before if you hadn't put out the newsletter. Right? That's one. Another one is what I was talking about getting you into, like, you know, podcast and the media, right? Like, you might not always want to be like, hey, I'm doing this podcast. Listen to this. But you're more than, you know, a lot of people are more than happy to say, hey, I was in this article this journalist wrote about me. Um, and that's another way to. For you to promote yourself and your company, but then to also add legitimacy to, you know, um, the person that you're trying to convert. Because now all of a sudden they're like, whoa, like, journalists are writing about this company. Like, even if it's a trade magazine, they're like, okay, like this, this is legit, right? So it's like you're adding this, like, um, layer of, like, other people's trust, you know, and their, um, you know, journalistic integrity or whatever into like, the company. So that's also, you know, a way to kind of, you know, think back on that. And then a lot of the times too is like, we'll, we'll use social media to interact with your community a lot more than they had been. Right? Like, um, sometimes you'll see like, um, the, the founder account, you know, um, sorry. You'll see the company, um, account, you know, puts out a pretty boring statement about like, hey, we just released these features, right? Uh, but then like, the founder puts it out and it's like, hey, we've, you know, built this feature and this is like, what we were doing. This is how the team, you know, they're able to add more color and flavor to posts that company accounts can't really do. And so we see a lot more interaction with, like, founder accounts than we do with the accounts because they can put that personality out there. So it's like, really trying to, like, you know, talk to your community in a way that gets them to respond and actually engage. Right. I mean, so many of us have seen, like, company accounts just kind of post something, get like a couple likes, um, and then be like, well, why doesn't actually anybody care? You know? And it's like, okay, well, maybe try having the founder talk about it and, you know, shout out to all, like, their workers, um, and put it in the context of, like, how hard their team has worked to give. Give this to, like, their community or their, you know, clients, um, and see if that gets you a different, um, you know, engagement rate. And I've, I've seen the difference. Like, I, I even suggest now, like, you know, if you only have time to post to one account, the founder account or the company account, post to the founder account. Like, don't even bother with the company account anymore. Um, unless it's like, you know, you, you do have the time to kind of keep that going. But, you know, there's less and less time for people to focus on different, you know, channels. Focus on the ones that are actually going to give you a bigger return.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think the, uh, you hit the nail on the head there around, you know, founder versus brand accounts. And I mean, there's research who suggests that at any given time, um, the collective audience of your employee base will be 10 times larger than your brand account. It's like a sliding scale in the sense that the bigger your brand account gets, the more, the more employees that you get, the bigger your. The bigger the following. Will that, will there be.

Speaker B: On top of that, I'll also say I've started working with companies where their employees are so, um, like, are seeing the differences and engagement rates to the founders that now they're like, well, maybe I should start posting about doing my sales job or doing my, you know, engineering job. And it's like, yes, you should start posting. You should be proud to work at the company that you're working at and sharing all these learnings and like, what you're going through. Um, and that ends up getting, you know, other engagement because now you're tapping into those audiences who are generally in the same industry, right? And now it's like, whoa, I have to pay attention to this company because their employee likes working there so much that they're posting about it. And then you're getting, you know, marketing from all angles. You're getting it from the founder, you're getting it from the sales team, you're getting it for the marketing team. Um, and so that's just amplifying your brand even more. So definitely, you know, use that to your advantage. I know that some companies are like, should we have employees posting on our behalf? And it's like, come on, man. Like, um, you want people to be people and their job is part of that, is part of who they are as people. So, like, get them to do that. Um, don't force anybody. Don't, don't go sending out, like, hey, it'd be great if you guys could, you know, talk about this, um, or like, you know, support this or whatever. But, you know, have it be organic because that's always going to come out more authentic. So it becomes a company venture that everybody gets interested in, which has been fun to, to work with for sure.

Speaker A: And I think it does always start from the top. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah, like, and as you, as you approach it, if the founder is seen to be taking this seriously and can articulate within a business the reason why we're doing this. I'm doing this is because, you know, there is commercial value in us doing this, um, it becomes far easier to, um, persuade the rest of the company to jump on board as well. Now, not everyone's going to do it, and that's what you're saying, right? Like, some people just aren't that interested. And that's absolutely fine. You can't force them to do it. But I Do. I do think there are, there are a lot of people out there who um, are working for organizations who probably would be incredibly effective assets on social media if they felt comfortable, they felt like they had the permission and they felt like they had the tools they needed to go out there and actually do it right. And I think as you say, that kind of starts from, starts from the top.

Speaker B: Yeah. The other thing I'll say is, um, I mostly work with founders because I work with, you know, early stage startups about Series A. So there aren't that many employees that, or there aren't that many roles that the CEO either isn't doing or um, doesn't know enough about. But for larger companies, medium sized to large, um, it could, it would be more effective to also get like the leaders of, you know, different departments to talk about what they do and how it affects, you know, everybody else. Right. Like, um, there's stuff that could be happening like in um, you know, the marketing role or like sales is like sales and design. Like one. One of the ones that we did for a company was actually, um, having sales and design talk to each other about like what their customers, um, think about. So you had like, you know, the designer talking about from like the designer side of things and then the salesperson talking from the sales side of things and them having the conversation as like a customer representative almost. And that ended up, you know, being one of our best, um, pieces of content. Because now all of a sudden like the people, the designers, the salespeople that they were, you know, pitching to realize, uh, that it's not just, you know, the CEO kind of talking about. This is like. No, it's like there's actual people in there that understand where you're coming from that can speak to those things in the language that you understand far better than like, you know, the CEO can. So, you know, inviting the other people to talk about like what they do and how it affects everybody else is also, you know, super, super great content that like you can use and if you could get your customers on. Oh, that's like the best, right? Because it's like you can have those like case studies that are like video content that are more engaging because you're being people, um, rather than putting out, you know, a blog post about the case study.

Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome. Well, this has been an amazing conversation about yapping as a service, which I love, again as a name and as a, as an acronym for, for people who are listening to this and who want to learn more about you and your work and how you can help them. Where should they go?

Speaker B: Um, I'm across all social media onyabachez. That's B, A, S, C, H, E, Z. Um, or you can look up Ben's growth. Um, um, as well. Um, and then I also have a podcast that talks about, um, marketing as like, um, like why viral moments happen and why they kind of get into pop culture, um, to kind of show you why marketing transcends everything, um, and why you should care. And that's uh, the meme team.

Speaker A: Great. Well, we'll drop. We'll drop the link to that podcast in the show notes of this episode. It has been such a pleasure having you back on to the podcast and let's, um, not leave it as long next time bring you on for round three. By which point we will be even older friends than we are today. I know, right?

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: But thank you so much.

Speaker B: Thanks so much for having me on.