Thomas Christensen - Win-Win-Win

1 00:00:05,040 - > 00:00:07,679 SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Partnerships Unraveled, the 2 00:00:07,679 - > 00:00:10,480 podcast where we dive deep into the mysteries and secrets of 3 00:00:10,480 - > 00:00:11,599 partnerships and the channel. 4 00:00:11,679 - > 00:00:14,400 My name is Michel, I'm head of marketing at Chanext, and I'll 5 00:00:14,400 - > 00:00:15,279 be your host for today. 6 00:00:15,359 - > 00:00:18,320 And I'm very happy to chat with Thomas Christensen, Vice 7 00:00:18,320 - > 00:00:20,879 President of Partner Ecosystem for Northern, Central, and 8 00:00:20,879 - > 00:00:22,399 Eastern Europe at IBM. 9 00:00:22,480 - > 00:00:24,480 I'm super excited to hear your insights today. 10 00:00:24,559 - > 00:00:25,120 How are you? 11 00:00:25,440 - > 00:00:26,000 SPEAKER_00: Oh, great. 12 00:00:26,320 - > 00:00:26,960 Great to be here. 13 00:00:27,039 - > 00:00:27,920 Thanks for having me. 14 00:00:28,399 - > 00:00:32,159 Such a pleasure and what a great topic to start off the morning, 15 00:00:32,240 - > 00:00:32,479 right? 16 00:00:32,799 - > 00:00:35,759 Whenever people see this, they don't know it's morning, but it 17 00:00:35,759 - > 00:00:36,479 is morning. 18 00:00:36,640 - > 00:00:39,600 So uh so good morning and thanks for having me and uh super 19 00:00:39,600 - > 00:00:40,640 excited to be here. 20 00:00:40,960 - > 00:00:41,520 SPEAKER_01: Likewise. 21 00:00:41,600 - > 00:00:44,960 And and for me, this is a total step change because I speak to 22 00:00:44,960 - > 00:00:46,320 US-based leaders a lot. 23 00:00:46,479 - > 00:00:48,079 So I'm doing this stuff in the evening. 24 00:00:48,159 - > 00:00:49,359 I feel so fresh right now. 25 00:00:49,439 - > 00:00:50,479 It's unbelievable. 26 00:00:50,880 - > 00:00:51,359 Amazing. 27 00:00:51,520 - > 00:00:51,920 Amazing. 28 00:00:52,240 - > 00:00:53,439 We're both fresh and ready. 29 00:00:53,520 - > 00:00:54,079 That's good. 30 00:00:54,320 - > 00:00:54,719 Exactly. 31 00:00:54,799 - > 00:00:56,079 Yeah, I'm looking forward to this one. 32 00:00:56,320 - > 00:00:58,320 To kick off, let's start with the table stakes. 33 00:00:58,399 - > 00:01:01,200 Could you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, 34 00:01:01,280 - > 00:01:02,560 and your role at IBM? 35 00:01:02,880 - > 00:01:03,679 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely. 36 00:01:04,000 - > 00:01:06,239 Born and raised in IT, I think I could say, right? 37 00:01:06,319 - > 00:01:10,319 So being 46 now, uh, I don't have any problem with any age 38 00:01:10,319 - > 00:01:11,840 stigma, so I can put it out there. 39 00:01:11,920 - > 00:01:12,640 But uh 30. 40 00:01:13,120 - > 00:01:13,840 I'm 25. 41 00:01:14,000 - > 00:01:15,280 Yeah, exactly. 42 00:01:15,519 - > 00:01:17,359 So 25 forever, right? 43 00:01:17,599 - > 00:01:17,840 unknown: Yeah. 44 00:01:18,480 - > 00:01:21,359 SPEAKER_00: So, no, 30 years actually in IT, I can't believe 45 00:01:21,359 - > 00:01:21,680 it, right? 46 00:01:21,760 - > 00:01:25,439 So began early, obviously, with more junior roles helping, you 47 00:01:25,439 - > 00:01:28,480 know, a software reseller get going there in the mid-90s. 48 00:01:28,560 - > 00:01:31,200 But definitely, you know, it's been now 30 years in this 49 00:01:31,200 - > 00:01:32,000 amazing industry. 50 00:01:32,159 - > 00:01:35,359 So I've been through uh, you could say three of the key 51 00:01:35,359 - > 00:01:36,159 branches, right? 52 00:01:36,319 - > 00:01:41,519 So from reseller to Disty a short while, and then most of my 53 00:01:41,519 - > 00:01:43,040 time in the vendor branch. 54 00:01:43,200 - > 00:01:46,000 But really, now that we're going to talk a lot about ecosystems 55 00:01:46,079 - > 00:01:50,400 today, all three branches, you know, I experienced and thought 56 00:01:50,400 - > 00:01:54,000 was very important to be part of uh and enjoyed, uh, but probably 57 00:01:54,000 - > 00:01:56,879 found my home in the vendor space, and we can talk more 58 00:01:56,879 - > 00:01:58,079 about that uh later. 59 00:01:58,560 - > 00:02:02,879 So been with companies like uh like VMware, um Symantec, 60 00:02:02,959 - > 00:02:07,519 Veritas, now called TD Cynix, Tech Data at the time, and then 61 00:02:07,599 - > 00:02:13,039 uh for the last almost 11 years in the great big blue of IBM and 62 00:02:13,039 - > 00:02:16,800 and recently uh was entrusted with running our, as you said, I 63 00:02:16,800 - > 00:02:20,879 guess the title says it, running the ecosystem, but also the very 64 00:02:20,879 - > 00:02:24,080 big part of our client segment of acquiring new clients and 65 00:02:24,080 - > 00:02:26,400 clients we want to grow with and the breadth of clients, 66 00:02:26,560 - > 00:02:28,319 something we call select territory. 67 00:02:28,560 - > 00:02:31,520 I have the responsibility for that as well, in the same region 68 00:02:31,520 - > 00:02:34,400 that you mentioned, North Central Eastern Europe, which by 69 00:02:34,400 - > 00:02:38,560 the way is 35 countries and and doesn't make any necessarily 70 00:02:38,560 - > 00:02:42,400 sense in terms of of geography, but it's a it's a region that we 71 00:02:42,400 - > 00:02:44,000 have formed for different reasons. 72 00:02:44,240 - > 00:02:47,840 And by the way, it also includes Central Asia, so uh for flavors, 73 00:02:48,000 - > 00:02:49,840 all the SAM countries as well. 74 00:02:50,000 - > 00:02:55,280 So really a diverse, almost a replica of all of Europe plus a 75 00:02:55,280 - > 00:02:56,159 little of Asia, right? 76 00:02:56,240 - > 00:02:57,360 But in a smaller context. 77 00:02:57,520 - > 00:02:59,840 So uh very exciting, very exciting. 78 00:03:00,639 - > 00:03:04,159 SPEAKER_01: I almost get like anxiety from the past when I was 79 00:03:04,159 - > 00:03:07,520 responsible for for leading marketing in EMIA and APAC. 80 00:03:07,599 - > 00:03:10,719 And while I was doing that, all I could think every single day 81 00:03:10,719 - > 00:03:14,080 was why do we even categorize regions this way? 82 00:03:14,319 - > 00:03:17,199 Because every single country in them is different, but then 83 00:03:17,199 - > 00:03:19,919 between the regions, there's massive differences. 84 00:03:20,080 - > 00:03:22,879 There's no such thing as one playbook. 85 00:03:23,199 - > 00:03:23,759 Absolutely. 86 00:03:24,319 - > 00:03:26,879 And uh, I'm sure we'll dive into that a little bit more later on 87 00:03:26,879 - > 00:03:29,280 in this podcast, but I wanted to hit on one thing that you 88 00:03:29,280 - > 00:03:31,360 started off with, which I think is fascinating. 89 00:03:31,439 - > 00:03:34,400 The the three branches of industry that you've been in, 90 00:03:34,479 - > 00:03:34,719 right? 91 00:03:34,800 - > 00:03:37,759 So you've basically seen every aspect, every angle, reseller, 92 00:03:38,000 - > 00:03:39,039 distributor, vendor. 93 00:03:39,199 - > 00:03:41,520 I'd like to assume that gives you a bit of a unique 94 00:03:41,520 - > 00:03:44,560 perspective compared to leaders who, let's say, have only seen 95 00:03:44,560 - > 00:03:47,120 one side of the business, only the vendor side, only the disty 96 00:03:47,280 - > 00:03:47,520 side. 97 00:03:47,759 - > 00:03:51,120 So when you look at today's ecosystem, what do people 98 00:03:51,120 - > 00:03:54,159 misunderstand because they've only experienced one side of 99 00:03:54,159 - > 00:03:54,800 that model? 100 00:03:55,680 - > 00:03:59,919 SPEAKER_00: No, I think being, you know, being one-sided is I 101 00:03:59,919 - > 00:04:03,439 can't even think of a time where that would be good or an 102 00:04:03,439 - > 00:04:04,240 advantage, right? 103 00:04:04,400 - > 00:04:10,000 So it's basically understanding the person you sit next to or 104 00:04:10,000 - > 00:04:13,439 opposite to or in the same room as, and you want to try and 105 00:04:13,439 - > 00:04:16,959 develop a business, a partnership, understanding where 106 00:04:16,959 - > 00:04:20,879 they come from is, you know, naturally an advantage, right? 107 00:04:21,040 - > 00:04:24,720 So if you understand a bit more about, you know, what's their uh 108 00:04:24,720 - > 00:04:28,240 daily life, what's what's their goals, how is the business run, 109 00:04:28,480 - > 00:04:32,000 what's important to them as a business and the dynamics of how 110 00:04:32,000 - > 00:04:36,319 they run the business, that's naturally an advantage, right? 111 00:04:36,399 - > 00:04:39,680 And I felt that, you know, as I believe in long-term 112 00:04:39,680 - > 00:04:42,879 partnerships, as I truly believe in, as our CEO, Arvin Krishna, 113 00:04:43,040 - > 00:04:44,639 also said, win, win, win, right? 114 00:04:44,720 - > 00:04:47,120 It's it's it's it's about the the client at the end. 115 00:04:47,199 - > 00:04:49,519 We're all here to serve the clients, let's make no mistake. 116 00:04:49,600 - > 00:04:52,720 We love channel and ecosystem and partners, but we're here to 117 00:04:52,720 - > 00:04:54,879 serve end clients that consume the technology. 118 00:04:55,040 - > 00:04:57,439 Sometimes that can be the partner as well, by the way, if 119 00:04:57,439 - > 00:04:59,120 they if they build solutions. 120 00:04:59,279 - > 00:05:01,120 We can talk more about that maybe later. 121 00:05:01,199 - > 00:05:03,759 But the client we're here to serve, so that's the first win. 122 00:05:03,920 - > 00:05:06,560 The second win is the partner, and the third win is the is the 123 00:05:06,560 - > 00:05:10,480 one trying to sell their solution, in this case, I IBM, 124 00:05:10,560 - > 00:05:10,800 right? 125 00:05:10,879 - > 00:05:15,199 So I think it's it's just it's just naturally, you know, gives 126 00:05:15,199 - > 00:05:19,439 you a perspective of the one you sit next to or above or or or in 127 00:05:19,439 - > 00:05:24,399 the same room, you know a little bit what their goal is before 128 00:05:24,399 - > 00:05:27,360 they even tell you, and that that gives you an advantage of 129 00:05:27,360 - > 00:05:30,560 how you position your solution, how you build your business 130 00:05:30,560 - > 00:05:33,439 plan, what goals you're trying to achieve, because you know a 131 00:05:33,439 - > 00:05:35,120 little bit about what's important to them, right? 132 00:05:35,199 - > 00:05:39,360 And and I would say especially people tend to be at resellers 133 00:05:39,439 - > 00:05:44,000 or you know, kind of the ISV reseller, system integrator part 134 00:05:44,000 - > 00:05:46,319 of the world, or the vendor branch. 135 00:05:46,480 - > 00:05:49,040 I've seen a lot of people that have been in the in those two, 136 00:05:49,199 - > 00:05:52,800 but very rarely has added the middle component, you know, in 137 00:05:52,800 - > 00:05:56,800 the whole puzzle piece, which is distribution, which which is I 138 00:05:56,800 - > 00:05:59,120 always try to find a new word for distribution because I 139 00:05:59,120 - > 00:06:01,199 didn't think it it served them justice. 140 00:06:01,439 - > 00:06:04,240 So in in the modern world, I would say, so more they're more 141 00:06:04,240 - > 00:06:07,199 like a tech broker, tech aggregator, bringing tech 142 00:06:07,199 - > 00:06:10,240 together, stitching things together, and really being in 143 00:06:10,240 - > 00:06:13,040 the center piece, both good and bad, because they're also being 144 00:06:13,040 - > 00:06:14,240 squeezed from every side. 145 00:06:14,480 - > 00:06:18,160 So I I guess the short answer is insight, and insight is is 146 00:06:18,319 - > 00:06:22,160 insight and knowledge is power when you uh when you sit in 147 00:06:22,160 - > 00:06:25,199 negotiations and and partnerships, and not negatively 148 00:06:25,199 - > 00:06:28,560 meant, not like you know, power can also feel like a negative 149 00:06:28,560 - > 00:06:31,680 term, but I meant it in a positive way that you have the 150 00:06:31,680 - > 00:06:34,639 power to really develop win-win-win agreements, right? 151 00:06:34,720 - > 00:06:38,240 So so that's that's that's how I've I've um I've felt it on my 152 00:06:38,319 - > 00:06:39,600 on my own body, right? 153 00:06:39,920 - > 00:06:42,319 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I think maybe the term we can use is 154 00:06:42,319 - > 00:06:43,279 empowerment. 155 00:06:43,439 - > 00:06:43,680 Yeah. 156 00:06:43,920 - > 00:06:44,160 Right? 157 00:06:44,319 - > 00:06:44,959 In that sense. 158 00:06:45,120 - > 00:06:48,800 And and I've a lesson I learned early on in my life, not just in 159 00:06:48,800 - > 00:06:51,279 my career, was my grandfather used to say this and I love uh 160 00:06:51,360 - > 00:06:54,240 say this and I loved it, and it was put on someone else's 161 00:06:54,240 - > 00:06:55,360 worldview like a hat. 162 00:06:55,519 - > 00:06:58,399 And I think that's such an important part in in this area 163 00:06:58,399 - > 00:06:58,959 of business. 164 00:06:59,360 - > 00:07:01,600 By the way, you mentioned that w we shouldn't be calling 165 00:07:01,600 - > 00:07:02,800 distributors distributors. 166 00:07:02,879 - > 00:07:06,560 Uh, I fully agree because it it makes it so kind of um 167 00:07:07,439 - > 00:07:09,279 emotionless and and binary. 168 00:07:09,439 - > 00:07:12,319 Um I think maybe like like force multiplier. 169 00:07:12,399 - > 00:07:14,240 I've been hearing that term so often. 170 00:07:14,399 - > 00:07:14,879 I love that. 171 00:07:14,959 - > 00:07:16,319 It makes it sound so powerful. 172 00:07:16,639 - > 00:07:16,959 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah. 173 00:07:17,199 - > 00:07:18,639 But that's what it's all about, right? 174 00:07:18,800 - > 00:07:22,399 Ecosystem partnerships, whatever the channel, you know, whatever 175 00:07:22,399 - > 00:07:26,480 labels we've put on this discipline, it is basically 176 00:07:26,480 - > 00:07:31,040 about scale, amplification, cost of sale, you know, risk 177 00:07:31,040 - > 00:07:34,720 mitigation, many of these things is why there is an ecosystem, 178 00:07:34,800 - > 00:07:35,040 right? 179 00:07:35,199 - > 00:07:38,879 Um and and and if you understand that, then you can make it more 180 00:07:38,879 - > 00:07:39,600 successful, right? 181 00:07:39,680 - > 00:07:42,560 And you need all the different components to make that happen. 182 00:07:42,720 - > 00:07:46,720 Of course, as we probably also will touch today, the world is 183 00:07:46,720 - > 00:07:48,959 changing and will continue to change. 184 00:07:49,040 - > 00:07:51,920 So there's more, there's different tiering models, right? 185 00:07:52,079 - > 00:07:55,680 So, you know, where the one tier is taken out of the equation and 186 00:07:55,680 - > 00:07:58,800 then suddenly it's only one tier, and sometimes even, which 187 00:07:58,800 - > 00:08:02,560 we don't like as ecosystem people, tier zero, where you go 188 00:08:02,560 - > 00:08:04,800 directly from vendor to client, right? 189 00:08:04,959 - > 00:08:08,079 But you know, I'm talking about marketplaces and and other 190 00:08:08,079 - > 00:08:12,560 aspects where I think it's super important to keep the ecosystem 191 00:08:12,560 - > 00:08:15,600 dimension in there because it really adds value if you do it 192 00:08:15,600 - > 00:08:19,120 right, but it still challenges the traditional way of doing 193 00:08:19,120 - > 00:08:19,600 business. 194 00:08:19,839 - > 00:08:23,600 So it's it's super important that people working who work in 195 00:08:23,600 - > 00:08:25,279 this space challenge themselves. 196 00:08:25,360 - > 00:08:28,240 And I think especially the distributors, not to make the 197 00:08:28,240 - > 00:08:30,959 whole podcast about them, but just understanding the different 198 00:08:30,959 - > 00:08:34,720 dimensions, if they don't reinvent themselves, part of 199 00:08:34,720 - > 00:08:37,360 their mission, not all of their mission, but part of their 200 00:08:37,360 - > 00:08:40,320 mission will then become obsolete and not important 201 00:08:40,320 - > 00:08:40,799 anymore. 202 00:08:40,960 - > 00:08:43,279 And and and then they're they will lose significance, right? 203 00:08:43,440 - > 00:08:46,720 And I do believe they are super significant in the in the 204 00:08:46,720 - > 00:08:48,960 ecosystem that we that we have today, right? 205 00:08:49,279 - > 00:08:51,679 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it comes back to the point of being 206 00:08:51,679 - > 00:08:54,960 able to understand all these different facets of the channel, 207 00:08:55,039 - > 00:08:58,399 so to speak, from vendor side, partner side, from disty side. 208 00:08:58,480 - > 00:09:01,519 And that allows you to make better decisions because you can 209 00:09:01,519 - > 00:09:03,840 actually make certain assumptions that align with 210 00:09:03,840 - > 00:09:05,840 reality, especially about where you have to go. 211 00:09:06,080 - > 00:09:08,799 And I think knowing the other side, it's actually one of the 212 00:09:08,799 - > 00:09:12,080 reasons why I encourage everyone in my teams to, for example, do 213 00:09:12,080 - > 00:09:14,960 a day of cold calling, you know, especially with with more junior 214 00:09:14,960 - > 00:09:17,679 people or sit down with finance to understand how revenue 215 00:09:17,679 - > 00:09:20,240 recognition works and things where people say, Oh, but that's 216 00:09:20,240 - > 00:09:21,120 not my job, you know? 217 00:09:21,200 - > 00:09:22,960 It's like, no, yeah, it is. 218 00:09:23,440 - > 00:09:24,159 SPEAKER_00: Exactly. 219 00:09:24,320 - > 00:09:27,039 We actually call it, we have an expression for it at IBM. 220 00:09:27,200 - > 00:09:31,360 I don't think it's an IBM-owned expression, but day in a life, 221 00:09:31,440 - > 00:09:31,600 right? 222 00:09:31,840 - > 00:09:35,039 Day in a life of so, you know, mentoring, shadowing, you know, 223 00:09:35,120 - > 00:09:37,039 depending on which side you are at the fence. 224 00:09:37,279 - > 00:09:38,480 We we try to really do it. 225 00:09:38,559 - > 00:09:40,960 I do it in my team uh as much as I can, right? 226 00:09:41,120 - > 00:09:44,879 Really sitting with someone, I try to do it myself as well to 227 00:09:44,879 - > 00:09:49,759 say, let me shadow a young seller in our automation brand 228 00:09:49,919 - > 00:09:53,120 and see how they work with modern selling, right? 229 00:09:53,200 - > 00:09:56,159 Today it's all about social selling, capturing the client 230 00:09:56,320 - > 00:09:59,600 where they are early in the phase where they're using social 231 00:09:59,600 - > 00:10:03,360 media to and network to get knowledge about the technology 232 00:10:03,360 - > 00:10:04,000 they want to buy. 233 00:10:04,080 - > 00:10:06,960 How do you tap into that and capture them while they're in 234 00:10:06,960 - > 00:10:09,360 that phase and not just in the procurement phase? 235 00:10:09,519 - > 00:10:13,279 And how do they work with RevTech tools, which also at IBM 236 00:10:13,279 - > 00:10:14,480 is a massive thing now? 237 00:10:14,639 - > 00:10:17,519 How we work with all the different tools to get the right 238 00:10:17,519 - > 00:10:20,159 contacts at the right time, running campaigns. 239 00:10:20,320 - > 00:10:22,559 So RevTech is becoming massive. 240 00:10:22,639 - > 00:10:26,159 And if you are a seller or sales leader that has been in the 241 00:10:26,159 - > 00:10:30,240 industry for like me for 30 years, or even just maybe 15 or 242 00:10:30,240 - > 00:10:34,720 20, your way of selling is probably quite more traditional 243 00:10:34,720 - > 00:10:35,759 than how it works today. 244 00:10:35,919 - > 00:10:39,039 So that whole shadowing, and then to tie the loop back to 245 00:10:39,200 - > 00:10:42,799 ecosystem and the different tiers, you know, going there and 246 00:10:42,799 - > 00:10:46,000 not just sitting with the disty or sitting at the reseller or 247 00:10:46,000 - > 00:10:46,960 sitting with the partner. 248 00:10:47,120 - > 00:10:50,399 It's actually sitting there but asking permission to be part of 249 00:10:50,399 - > 00:10:53,919 their life and calling together and working together and you 250 00:10:53,919 - > 00:10:56,559 know doing RevTech activity together, that's where you 251 00:10:56,559 - > 00:10:57,039 learn, right? 252 00:10:57,200 - > 00:10:58,960 That's where you really learn and grow. 253 00:10:59,279 - > 00:10:59,759 SPEAKER_01: Well, 100%. 254 00:11:00,080 - > 00:11:04,399 And I I think that if I were a reseller or a Disty and a vendor 255 00:11:04,399 - > 00:11:08,399 would do something like that with me, I would be very excited 256 00:11:08,399 - > 00:11:11,120 about that because it's a different level of investment, 257 00:11:11,279 - > 00:11:12,559 right, from a vendor side. 258 00:11:12,639 - > 00:11:14,399 But it's it's a again, a mutual lift. 259 00:11:14,480 - > 00:11:16,399 The rising tide lifts all boats, right? 260 00:11:16,799 - > 00:11:19,200 That's what a partnership is is all about. 261 00:11:19,360 - > 00:11:22,960 And I think that actually dovetails nicely into something 262 00:11:22,960 - > 00:11:25,679 you said when we were discussing some of the topics for this 263 00:11:25,679 - > 00:11:26,080 podcast. 264 00:11:26,159 - > 00:11:27,519 You I thought it was very profound. 265 00:11:27,600 - > 00:11:30,639 You said you can't create an ecosystem without equality. 266 00:11:30,799 - > 00:11:33,360 But let's say that a partnership is one-sided. 267 00:11:33,440 - > 00:11:36,240 So where do you then generally see those relationships break 268 00:11:36,240 - > 00:11:37,039 down first? 269 00:11:38,000 - > 00:11:40,639 SPEAKER_00: No, I think it's it's it's first of all, you 270 00:11:40,639 - > 00:11:43,519 couldn't call it a partnership if it's if it's one-sided. 271 00:11:43,600 - > 00:11:46,559 That's the whole, you know, the whole golden nug, right? 272 00:11:46,639 - > 00:11:48,399 Or silver bullet or whatever you call it. 273 00:11:48,639 - > 00:11:51,039 Because then it just becomes kind of transactional, right? 274 00:11:51,279 - > 00:11:54,960 And you feel instantly that the balance of power, uh, again, or 275 00:11:54,960 - > 00:11:58,000 empowerment or whatever expression we used before is is 276 00:11:58,320 - > 00:11:59,200 disbalanced, right? 277 00:11:59,279 - > 00:12:02,000 So you feel it instantly, you feel it in the way people 278 00:12:02,000 - > 00:12:02,480 engage. 279 00:12:02,639 - > 00:12:04,240 Uh, now I'm speaking generally, right? 280 00:12:04,320 - > 00:12:06,559 Because you get your situation can be different. 281 00:12:06,720 - > 00:12:10,559 But you could experience, you know, the behavior of the 282 00:12:10,559 - > 00:12:14,240 person, the arrogance in the room or in the conversation, the 283 00:12:14,240 - > 00:12:17,440 willingness to meet different demands about delivery, price, 284 00:12:17,600 - > 00:12:21,200 you know, terms and conditions, you know, things like, yeah, we 285 00:12:21,200 - > 00:12:23,919 have a partner program, but you understand in this case I did 286 00:12:23,919 - > 00:12:26,879 all the work, and you know, so we have to lower the margin. 287 00:12:26,960 - > 00:12:30,240 And, you know, sorry, there's only X percent for you because 288 00:12:30,320 - > 00:12:32,720 you know I did everything and you're just fulfillment. 289 00:12:32,879 - > 00:12:36,159 So it it becomes almost disbalanced from from the 290 00:12:36,159 - > 00:12:39,440 beginning when you don't um when when you don't have that 291 00:12:39,440 - > 00:12:40,080 equality. 292 00:12:40,240 - > 00:12:42,480 And that's why I think, you know, a program like Partner 293 00:12:42,559 - > 00:12:45,360 Plus that that we run at IBM, that that's the name of our 294 00:12:45,360 - > 00:12:50,080 partner program, is is really we're really strict on that 295 00:12:50,480 - > 00:12:55,039 program needs to be followed in every situation because it's 296 00:12:55,039 - > 00:12:58,559 designed also to create equality in all of all of the different 297 00:12:58,559 - > 00:13:01,279 stakeholders in the uh in the partnership, right? 298 00:13:01,360 - > 00:13:04,559 So that being the vendor, the reseller, the ISV, the system 299 00:13:04,559 - > 00:13:08,159 integrator, the disty, whoever takes part in that big ecosystem 300 00:13:08,399 - > 00:13:11,840 across what we call a sell, build, and service, because we 301 00:13:11,840 - > 00:13:14,799 cover all types of ways of doing business in the program. 302 00:13:14,879 - > 00:13:16,320 And of course, the Disty is in there. 303 00:13:16,399 - > 00:13:18,480 And we are super strict on not breaking that. 304 00:13:18,559 - > 00:13:21,679 So back to my my term, like a seller said, Oh, I did all the 305 00:13:21,679 - > 00:13:24,320 work and I want you to have lower margin because you don't 306 00:13:24,320 - > 00:13:24,799 deserve it. 307 00:13:24,960 - > 00:13:26,240 That's not equality. 308 00:13:26,480 - > 00:13:30,240 The program ensures as well that even if the seller thinks like 309 00:13:30,240 - > 00:13:33,840 this, it's actually forced that maybe not on this transaction, 310 00:13:34,000 - > 00:13:37,840 but dear seller, what you forgot in your way of thinking now is 311 00:13:38,000 - > 00:13:38,960 you are binary. 312 00:13:39,200 - > 00:13:40,720 Partnership is long term. 313 00:13:40,960 - > 00:13:45,600 So tomorrow they are investing 10 people in educating 314 00:13:45,600 - > 00:13:49,360 themselves on the HashiCorp portfolio or the toponymic 315 00:13:49,360 - > 00:13:53,440 portfolio uh or sorry, toponomic resolution, or the confluent 316 00:13:53,440 - > 00:13:56,720 that we we just acquired at IBM portfolio, and then they're 317 00:13:56,720 - > 00:13:58,639 gonna generate leads for you on that. 318 00:13:58,879 - > 00:13:59,759 You don't see that. 319 00:13:59,919 - > 00:14:03,440 You're only thinking about your binary transaction, but we give 320 00:14:03,440 - > 00:14:06,799 them margin that you think they don't deserve to invest in the 321 00:14:06,799 - > 00:14:08,879 future, thereby creating equality. 322 00:14:09,039 - > 00:14:13,200 So I think the program, if that makes sense, really helps us to 323 00:14:13,200 - > 00:14:13,679 create it. 324 00:14:13,759 - > 00:14:16,720 And then of course it's up to us as leaders also, which I do 325 00:14:16,720 - > 00:14:20,240 every day, remind people about the long term, don't be too 326 00:14:20,240 - > 00:14:24,240 binary or give to get, you know, as as as we also call it, right? 327 00:14:24,399 - > 00:14:29,039 You you may be giving a bit more if if the if the imbalance is by 328 00:14:29,039 - > 00:14:30,639 design, then it's okay. 329 00:14:30,879 - > 00:14:34,000 Because you know over time your aim and your goal in your 330 00:14:34,000 - > 00:14:36,080 business plan is to get to equality. 331 00:14:36,240 - > 00:14:39,519 So you give one deal where you have done more work than the 332 00:14:39,519 - > 00:14:43,360 partner, but over time, the partner gives back if you 333 00:14:43,360 - > 00:14:46,399 understand how the ecosystem works and you have invested in 334 00:14:46,399 - > 00:14:48,720 it, you have created equality, you are you are truly 335 00:14:48,799 - > 00:14:50,240 win-win-win mentality. 336 00:14:50,399 - > 00:14:53,360 So that's that's uh, and I think you and I talked about it um 337 00:14:53,519 - > 00:14:58,080 also about the networking principles that it's like a bank 338 00:14:58,080 - > 00:14:58,720 account, right? 339 00:14:58,799 - > 00:15:02,080 So you do need to put money in your bank account to be able to 340 00:15:02,080 - > 00:15:03,759 withdraw at a certain time. 341 00:15:03,919 - > 00:15:07,759 If you don't do it, you have to ask the bank if you can get a 342 00:15:07,840 - > 00:15:08,480 credit, right? 343 00:15:08,559 - > 00:15:09,840 And then you have to pay interest. 344 00:15:10,000 - > 00:15:11,279 So it isn't free. 345 00:15:11,360 - > 00:15:13,360 You have to put something in the bank account. 346 00:15:13,519 - > 00:15:16,000 And that's a little bit, you know, how this example kind of 347 00:15:16,000 - > 00:15:17,039 ties together, right? 348 00:15:17,360 - > 00:15:19,600 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it it it's almost ironic, right? 349 00:15:19,679 - > 00:15:22,559 Because we're talking about how these relationships shouldn't be 350 00:15:22,559 - > 00:15:25,440 transactional and we're still using banking analogies, but 351 00:15:25,440 - > 00:15:26,480 they just apply, you know? 352 00:15:26,559 - > 00:15:30,320 And I think there is something um almost paradoxical, 353 00:15:30,480 - > 00:15:32,399 especially for sellers. 354 00:15:32,639 - > 00:15:35,679 Uh I mean, I don't mean to rub anyone the wrong way, uh, so 355 00:15:35,679 - > 00:15:37,360 please, audience, forgive me if I do. 356 00:15:37,519 - > 00:15:40,480 But uh, I understand that there's kind of this short-term 357 00:15:40,480 - > 00:15:41,919 drive for every seller, right? 358 00:15:42,000 - > 00:15:44,159 I have to hit my number, I have to hit my revenue, and I'll do 359 00:15:44,159 - > 00:15:45,679 whatever it takes to do that. 360 00:15:46,000 - > 00:15:48,879 But when you're looking at partnerships, I mean, it might 361 00:15:48,879 - > 00:15:51,519 work for the next year or the next two quarters. 362 00:15:51,600 - > 00:15:55,440 But if your partners no longer trust you, then after those two 363 00:15:55,440 - > 00:15:59,519 quarters are up and you've your leads have run dry, what are you 364 00:15:59,519 - > 00:15:59,919 going to do? 365 00:16:00,000 - > 00:16:01,919 You haven't built and maintained that relationship. 366 00:16:02,000 - > 00:16:05,600 So your your invest and withdraw analogy works so well. 367 00:16:05,759 - > 00:16:07,519 And I'd like to add one thing to that. 368 00:16:07,679 - > 00:16:10,480 There's um a really strange psychological effect called the 369 00:16:10,480 - > 00:16:17,200 uh Abe Lincoln effect, which says that if you do a favor for 370 00:16:17,200 - > 00:16:20,879 someone who you don't think deserves that, you will gain 371 00:16:20,879 - > 00:16:22,639 more respect for them as well. 372 00:16:22,799 - > 00:16:26,000 And I think like you can apply that directly to partnerships 373 00:16:26,080 - > 00:16:29,120 where it's like, hey, you need to invest and just know that 374 00:16:29,120 - > 00:16:31,759 you're going to feel better about that relationship, and 375 00:16:31,759 - > 00:16:33,519 that's going to come back to you as well. 376 00:16:33,759 - > 00:16:36,720 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, but it's beautiful because, you know, all 377 00:16:36,720 - > 00:16:40,080 my life I've been super passionate about people and 378 00:16:40,080 - > 00:16:43,519 succeeding through people, which is, you know, obviously why I 379 00:16:43,519 - > 00:16:46,240 ended up in leadership, not management, very intentional, 380 00:16:46,320 - > 00:16:50,000 but leadership, which I think is the most beautiful, amazing, 381 00:16:50,159 - > 00:16:51,360 complex thing you can do. 382 00:16:51,519 - > 00:16:53,919 But you also need to be very deliberate about it, right? 383 00:16:54,080 - > 00:16:57,279 And in all of that, you know, the whole unlocking the human 384 00:16:57,279 - > 00:17:00,399 potential, right, in every aspect, which ecosystem is very 385 00:17:00,399 - > 00:17:03,200 much about to because you don't unlock the scale and the 386 00:17:03,200 - > 00:17:04,720 amplification if you if you don't. 387 00:17:04,880 - > 00:17:08,319 One of my favorite books I read, and and actually maybe even 388 00:17:08,319 - > 00:17:10,960 better, the movie, was Pay It Forward, right? 389 00:17:11,200 - > 00:17:14,400 So a little bit like Dabe Lincoln uh mentioning here. 390 00:17:14,720 - > 00:17:18,480 And it's about you know the simple principle of do something 391 00:17:18,480 - > 00:17:21,920 good for someone who doesn't deserve it or who you don't 392 00:17:21,920 - > 00:17:22,160 know. 393 00:17:22,400 - > 00:17:26,000 The only requirement you have of that person or individual or 394 00:17:26,000 - > 00:17:29,279 partner in this case is do something good for three others. 395 00:17:29,440 - > 00:17:31,119 And that's the multiplier. 396 00:17:31,279 - > 00:17:34,400 And I've I I know that's a little bit unapplicable to 397 00:17:34,400 - > 00:17:36,960 business, back to your comment of delivering results in the 398 00:17:36,960 - > 00:17:39,599 month and the quarter, and because it's a little bit more 399 00:17:39,599 - > 00:17:40,559 unplanned. 400 00:17:40,799 - > 00:17:44,559 But how I've applied it is instead of going all in, you 401 00:17:44,559 - > 00:17:47,920 know, philanthropy, uh, you know, that's how I drive 402 00:17:47,920 - > 00:17:51,519 everything, I couldn't because it's it's unplanned results, and 403 00:17:51,519 - > 00:17:54,319 you do need some planning, some predictability, some numbers to 404 00:17:54,319 - > 00:17:54,880 come in. 405 00:17:55,039 - > 00:17:59,200 But applying it on top of your business plan as a mindset, 406 00:17:59,599 - > 00:18:03,440 saying, Let's think like this in the partnership. 407 00:18:03,759 - > 00:18:07,119 And if you think like this in the partnership, the whole 408 00:18:07,119 - > 00:18:08,400 community becomes better. 409 00:18:08,720 - > 00:18:12,400 So, right, so so I've I've used it in you know networking 410 00:18:12,400 - > 00:18:14,960 outside of IT because I believe in the principle of pay it 411 00:18:14,960 - > 00:18:15,599 forward, right? 412 00:18:15,680 - > 00:18:18,400 I I think it's so beautiful and the world needs it, by the way, 413 00:18:18,640 - > 00:18:19,599 maybe more than ever. 414 00:18:19,839 - > 00:18:20,240 Yes. 415 00:18:20,559 - > 00:18:25,279 But in business, you can apply a portion of it and still be very 416 00:18:25,279 - > 00:18:28,880 focused on the results we need to deliver because it's also a 417 00:18:28,880 - > 00:18:31,039 way to differentiate yourself, right? 418 00:18:31,200 - > 00:18:32,720 Which is what we all try to do, right? 419 00:18:32,799 - > 00:18:35,519 You want to stand out, people only have X number of hours, 420 00:18:35,599 - > 00:18:38,319 you're you know, speaking to busy people, or you're fighting 421 00:18:38,319 - > 00:18:40,960 for the attention of this large partner, right? 422 00:18:41,039 - > 00:18:43,279 Do they want to go with your solutions or the competit 423 00:18:43,440 - > 00:18:44,480 competitive solutions? 424 00:18:44,720 - > 00:18:46,240 How do you differentiate yourselves? 425 00:18:46,480 - > 00:18:49,680 Is sometimes not in the product or the solution, it's in the 426 00:18:49,680 - > 00:18:53,200 person, it's in the philosophy, it's in the how you approach 427 00:18:53,200 - > 00:18:53,759 partnership. 428 00:18:53,920 - > 00:18:55,119 At least that's how I've seen it. 429 00:18:55,279 - > 00:18:57,279 And how I try to my team, right? 430 00:18:57,599 - > 00:18:58,319 SPEAKER_01: I love that. 431 00:18:58,400 - > 00:19:01,759 And and I think it really hits on an important point for 432 00:19:02,000 - > 00:19:04,960 everyone in the industry, and that is that like these 433 00:19:04,960 - > 00:19:06,880 quantitative metrics are super important, right? 434 00:19:07,039 - > 00:19:09,279 I mean, we're in we're in business, we need to make a 435 00:19:09,279 - > 00:19:10,559 profit, we need to do our thing. 436 00:19:10,720 - > 00:19:14,400 But I'd say the qualitative side of things almost has to be like 437 00:19:14,640 - > 00:19:15,119 why? 438 00:19:15,359 - > 00:19:17,519 As opposed to how or or what? 439 00:19:17,599 - > 00:19:20,160 It's like, why are we doing this in the way that we're doing 440 00:19:20,160 - > 00:19:20,319 this? 441 00:19:20,480 - > 00:19:22,880 And it really allows you to kind of look in the mirror and say, 442 00:19:23,039 - > 00:19:26,559 oh, these numbers that I'm getting, why am I trying to 443 00:19:26,559 - > 00:19:27,039 achieve this? 444 00:19:27,200 - > 00:19:29,839 Why does this feel like I need the this responsibility? 445 00:19:30,160 - > 00:19:33,519 How am I going to change this in a way that kind of again, rising 446 00:19:33,519 - > 00:19:34,559 tide lifts all busts? 447 00:19:34,640 - > 00:19:37,200 Like, how do we do this together to achieve mutual success? 448 00:19:37,519 - > 00:19:37,920 SPEAKER_00: Exactly. 449 00:19:38,240 - > 00:19:40,880 But it's almost like, just to add to what you're saying now, 450 00:19:40,960 - > 00:19:43,519 it's almost like I just came to think of it as you were 451 00:19:43,839 - > 00:19:50,480 speaking, it's what's more powerful being asked to do 452 00:19:50,480 - > 00:19:54,319 something or driving a quantitative measurement for for 453 00:19:54,319 - > 00:19:58,799 that specific reason, or doing it because you have purpose. 454 00:19:59,119 - > 00:19:59,279 Yeah. 455 00:19:59,680 - > 00:20:00,960 I don't need to why, yeah. 456 00:20:01,119 - > 00:20:02,480 I don't need to the why, exactly. 457 00:20:02,559 - > 00:20:04,880 That's why I thought about it, because purpose is a different 458 00:20:04,880 - > 00:20:05,440 why, right? 459 00:20:05,519 - > 00:20:08,319 And I don't need to answer the question because I think the 460 00:20:08,319 - > 00:20:10,240 listeners should should answer themselves. 461 00:20:10,400 - > 00:20:14,160 But but I I know how I want to build my teams and how I'm 462 00:20:14,160 - > 00:20:18,559 trying to unlock that purpose and why and how powerful I think 463 00:20:18,559 - > 00:20:18,960 it is. 464 00:20:19,119 - > 00:20:21,599 So, but I'll I'll leave it to the listener to decide for 465 00:20:21,599 - > 00:20:23,839 themselves how they wanna how they wanna do that. 466 00:20:23,920 - > 00:20:25,440 But I think it's worth thinking about. 467 00:20:25,759 - > 00:20:26,799 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I love it. 468 00:20:26,880 - > 00:20:30,160 And I I think it all comes down to right, that engagement and 469 00:20:30,160 - > 00:20:32,079 that knowledge sharing and and building those real 470 00:20:32,079 - > 00:20:32,720 relationships. 471 00:20:32,799 - > 00:20:36,880 And I wanted to hit on that for a second because I feel that 472 00:20:36,880 - > 00:20:39,279 investing in these real relationships feels more 473 00:20:39,279 - > 00:20:44,799 relevant today than ever because a lot of our work is starting to 474 00:20:44,799 - > 00:20:50,480 become digitized, AI augmented, and every day I hear executives 475 00:20:50,480 - > 00:20:51,680 beating this drum. 476 00:20:52,000 - > 00:20:55,839 Human aspect is more critical today than ever in the channel. 477 00:20:56,160 - > 00:21:00,079 So as the workflow workflow gets more automated, where do you 478 00:21:00,079 - > 00:21:03,759 feel that that human layer will add even more value than it used 479 00:21:03,759 - > 00:21:04,079 to? 480 00:21:04,400 - > 00:21:07,440 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, so so I, you know, also stolen from 481 00:21:07,440 - > 00:21:10,799 somewhere or borrowed maybe a more nice word, human to human. 482 00:21:11,039 - > 00:21:14,400 I think says it says it a lot in in because we normally talk 483 00:21:14,400 - > 00:21:16,960 about B2C, B2B, blah, blah, blah, right? 484 00:21:17,279 - > 00:21:21,759 I I use the H2H expression quite a lot, and I loved when I saw it 485 00:21:21,759 - > 00:21:24,480 somewhere from some clever marketing person that that found 486 00:21:24,480 - > 00:21:24,720 it. 487 00:21:24,960 - > 00:21:29,839 Because it really sums up very, very well how much things are 488 00:21:29,839 - > 00:21:31,200 still between human beings. 489 00:21:31,440 - > 00:21:32,960 And you can start with technology. 490 00:21:33,039 - > 00:21:34,240 That's the big mistake. 491 00:21:34,480 - > 00:21:39,279 Technology will keep enhancing, will keep accelerating, will 492 00:21:39,440 - > 00:21:41,440 keep you know helping you. 493 00:21:41,759 - > 00:21:44,799 And with AI, you know, the hottest ticket of the town, I 494 00:21:44,799 - > 00:21:45,599 guess, right now. 495 00:21:47,039 - > 00:21:51,039 You cannot be an effective leader or even be effective in 496 00:21:51,039 - > 00:21:54,079 most companies today if you say, I'm not gonna use AI, I'm just 497 00:21:54,079 - > 00:21:56,480 gonna be, you know, old fashioned, quote unquote, 498 00:21:56,720 - > 00:21:58,160 working human to human. 499 00:21:58,640 - > 00:21:59,759 That's not what I mean when I talk. 500 00:22:00,319 - > 00:22:00,640 About it. 501 00:22:00,880 - > 00:22:06,720 I mean embracing AI, increasing your productivity, your becoming 502 00:22:06,720 - > 00:22:10,400 inspired by AI, but of course still applying your common 503 00:22:10,400 - > 00:22:13,759 sense, your critical sense, learning how to prompt, all of 504 00:22:13,759 - > 00:22:14,160 these things. 505 00:22:14,240 - > 00:22:17,920 So I'm all in on all of those productivity gains and becoming 506 00:22:17,920 - > 00:22:21,119 an AI-infused leader in my case, right? 507 00:22:21,200 - > 00:22:24,799 Or AI-infused seller or AI-infused technical seller or 508 00:22:24,799 - > 00:22:25,279 whatever. 509 00:22:25,519 - > 00:22:30,400 But where I think the missing link is, it's really, if you 510 00:22:30,400 - > 00:22:34,400 start the wrong way, then you miss the human touch and you 511 00:22:34,400 - > 00:22:39,200 just become uh one in the, you know, one in the in the big fog 512 00:22:39,839 - > 00:22:41,200 of noise out there. 513 00:22:41,359 - > 00:22:44,720 So if you want to break through the noise or the fog using those 514 00:22:44,720 - > 00:22:48,240 pictures, you need to use your competitive advantage. 515 00:22:48,400 - > 00:22:50,720 And that is human beings connecting, right? 516 00:22:50,960 - > 00:22:54,640 And it's all the way down to insisting on a physical meet and 517 00:22:54,640 - > 00:22:58,000 doing a handshake or however people greet each other in 518 00:22:58,000 - > 00:22:58,640 around the world. 519 00:22:58,880 - > 00:23:02,720 Or it's it's it's you know, yes, we saw it working in corona 520 00:23:02,799 - > 00:23:05,680 that, you know, you and I also never met, you know, physically. 521 00:23:05,759 - > 00:23:09,200 And and and and it's amazing that we can do these things and 522 00:23:09,200 - > 00:23:12,079 just meet online and still have a great conversation and 523 00:23:12,079 - > 00:23:13,599 connection and all of this. 524 00:23:13,839 - > 00:23:17,680 But but I just think that that that that physical thing and and 525 00:23:17,680 - > 00:23:20,720 connecting with people becomes a competitive advantage. 526 00:23:20,880 - > 00:23:24,000 And it's something that we should we should train because 527 00:23:24,000 - > 00:23:26,400 the more the world becomes digitized, the more the world 528 00:23:26,400 - > 00:23:28,720 becomes AI infused, the more generic it becomes. 529 00:23:28,799 - > 00:23:32,240 What people haven't noticed, if you use AI tools, right, like 530 00:23:32,240 - > 00:23:36,559 What's the next platform to do something for you, if you're not 531 00:23:36,559 - > 00:23:40,079 super, super deliberate about your prompting, you get a 532 00:23:40,079 - > 00:23:41,119 generic answer, right? 533 00:23:41,279 - > 00:23:41,519 Yep. 534 00:23:41,759 - > 00:23:44,880 And that generic answer to something, to a quote you're 535 00:23:44,880 - > 00:23:48,640 sending out or a reach out on LinkedIn or LinkedIn posts 536 00:23:48,799 - > 00:23:53,920 online for your followers, it becomes unpersonal, generic. 537 00:23:54,240 - > 00:23:58,640 And and I think now we're circling back to why H2H is so 538 00:23:58,640 - > 00:24:02,480 important, is that we it is still needed and it's still 539 00:24:02,480 - > 00:24:05,039 visible when it's human beings connecting, right? 540 00:24:05,200 - > 00:24:06,160 And and yes, I get it. 541 00:24:06,240 - > 00:24:10,000 It will probably evolve and AI and gen AI and all of this will 542 00:24:10,000 - > 00:24:12,960 become more and more intelligent, uh, mirroring you 543 00:24:12,960 - > 00:24:15,359 know, people more and more chatbots when you go in. 544 00:24:15,519 - > 00:24:18,720 You know, two years back, you were like, let me talk to a real 545 00:24:18,720 - > 00:24:19,599 person instantly. 546 00:24:19,839 - > 00:24:23,119 Now you actually see intelligent chatbots that you can have a you 547 00:24:23,119 - > 00:24:24,480 know pretty decent conversation. 548 00:24:24,559 - > 00:24:28,400 So you're not going directly to the customer service rep. 549 00:24:28,640 - > 00:24:32,640 So I do recognize it will evolve, but I think that that it 550 00:24:32,640 - > 00:24:35,519 actually becomes a competitive advantage back to what I said, 551 00:24:35,680 - > 00:24:38,799 that you understand what that human-to-human connection means, 552 00:24:38,880 - > 00:24:41,039 and then circling back to partnership. 553 00:24:41,279 - > 00:24:45,279 Do you really want to trust your business, uh, invest your 554 00:24:45,279 - > 00:24:49,279 resources, invest your time in somebody who doesn't even 555 00:24:49,759 - > 00:24:53,200 prioritize getting to know you as a person, showing up at your 556 00:24:53,200 - > 00:24:55,599 office, shaking your hands, sitting down over a cup of 557 00:24:55,599 - > 00:24:58,319 coffee or tea or water or whatever you drink? 558 00:24:58,480 - > 00:24:59,759 I think the answer is no, right? 559 00:24:59,839 - > 00:25:03,039 So you can do a lot in the digital world, but it will never 560 00:25:03,359 - > 00:25:08,000 ever, I believe, be not relevant to meet as human beings or 561 00:25:08,000 - > 00:25:09,440 connect as human beings. 562 00:25:09,920 - > 00:25:10,880 SPEAKER_01: I fully agree. 563 00:25:10,960 - > 00:25:14,799 And I think that shows how broad the spectrum of spectrum of 564 00:25:14,799 - > 00:25:15,920 trust is, right? 565 00:25:16,079 - > 00:25:20,000 Because I can trust the output of an AI, let's say, right? 566 00:25:20,240 - > 00:25:23,920 But trust between humans is an entirely different paradigm. 567 00:25:24,000 - > 00:25:27,200 And and I I love actually that you mentioned mentioned COVID 568 00:25:27,359 - > 00:25:30,160 because obviously we were doing everything remote, and I'll 569 00:25:30,160 - > 00:25:33,759 never forget I had to go to the headquarters of the company I 570 00:25:33,759 - > 00:25:36,559 was working with at the time, and that was in Sweden, in 571 00:25:36,559 - > 00:25:40,079 Stockholm, and they didn't have social distancing there. 572 00:25:40,319 - > 00:25:44,400 And I went there and someone stuck out their hand to me. 573 00:25:44,960 - > 00:25:47,440 And I first I was like, what is going on? 574 00:25:47,599 - > 00:25:50,880 But then I gave them a hand, and there was something I will never 575 00:25:50,880 - > 00:25:54,880 forget that moment, because it said to me, Oh, don't take these 576 00:25:54,880 - > 00:25:55,839 moments for granted. 577 00:25:56,000 - > 00:25:58,480 Looking someone in the eye, shaking their hand, you're 578 00:25:58,480 - > 00:25:59,279 absolutely right. 579 00:25:59,519 - > 00:26:01,759 I think there's a second element there when it comes to 580 00:26:01,759 - > 00:26:04,079 partnerships, and it's something I've heard before, which I find 581 00:26:04,079 - > 00:26:08,400 fascinating, is if you remove the human connection, you're 582 00:26:08,400 - > 00:26:12,000 going to miss a massive amount of insight into your end 583 00:26:12,000 - > 00:26:13,519 customer movement and mechanics. 584 00:26:13,680 - > 00:26:16,079 So, what this person said is I said, like, how do you use your 585 00:26:16,079 - > 00:26:17,039 MSPs, for example? 586 00:26:17,119 - > 00:26:18,000 Like, what does that look like? 587 00:26:18,079 - > 00:26:21,680 And he said, Well, the most important thing is I use them to 588 00:26:21,680 - > 00:26:25,359 listen to what they're hearing, like through the grapevine when 589 00:26:25,359 - > 00:26:28,480 it comes to end customer mechanics and strategies and 590 00:26:28,480 - > 00:26:30,079 things like that, and feed those back in. 591 00:26:30,240 - > 00:26:33,440 And I'm like, you can't get those out of a model. 592 00:26:33,599 - > 00:26:36,880 You you you can't because these are human perspectives and 593 00:26:36,880 - > 00:26:37,680 initiatives, right? 594 00:26:37,920 - > 00:26:40,720 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it comes back to one thing to sum up this 595 00:26:40,720 - > 00:26:43,839 section, listening to what you said now and and thinking about 596 00:26:43,839 - > 00:26:47,599 what I just said, and that's one word, and that's trust. 597 00:26:48,079 - > 00:26:53,200 So, because, you know, not that you can't trust a lot of what AI 598 00:26:53,200 - > 00:26:54,240 is doing if you're critical. 599 00:26:54,400 - > 00:26:56,319 We just establish that you can, absolutely. 600 00:26:56,480 - > 00:26:57,680 Especially if you're critical, right? 601 00:26:57,759 - > 00:27:00,400 And if you have governance and all the things that we also do 602 00:27:00,400 - > 00:27:01,200 at IBM, right? 603 00:27:01,279 - > 00:27:03,839 We we really make AI for business because we know it's 604 00:27:03,839 - > 00:27:05,680 not just a generic AI model. 605 00:27:05,920 - > 00:27:09,440 It's really about what models are you using, what data are you 606 00:27:09,519 - > 00:27:12,640 does those models have, and what governance have you put around 607 00:27:12,640 - > 00:27:14,720 it, and what industry are you working in? 608 00:27:14,880 - > 00:27:18,000 So it's it's context governed aware AI, right? 609 00:27:18,160 - > 00:27:21,680 And that's where many people miss out in that sort of AI can 610 00:27:21,680 - > 00:27:22,640 absolutely be trusted. 611 00:27:22,799 - > 00:27:30,160 But back to trust is is I think it's fundamental for the human 612 00:27:30,160 - > 00:27:33,519 interaction and for establishing partnership, which is what this 613 00:27:33,519 - > 00:27:34,319 is about, right? 614 00:27:34,480 - > 00:27:37,680 It is that that will not happen with AI. 615 00:27:37,759 - > 00:27:40,799 And then what you said, which is so beautiful, is all of those 616 00:27:40,799 - > 00:27:44,960 small things of insights here and there, or oh, I just heard 617 00:27:44,960 - > 00:27:48,960 the other day, I just gonna text my my good partner about this, 618 00:27:49,039 - > 00:27:52,480 or call them and say, hey, this is not directly linked to the 619 00:27:52,480 - > 00:27:55,519 business plan we have, which AI would advise me on. 620 00:27:55,680 - > 00:27:58,319 This is something that, hey, let's look into this in the 621 00:27:58,319 - > 00:28:01,359 future because it may be a business opportunity, or you 622 00:28:01,359 - > 00:28:04,480 should hire this guy, or AI would not figure that out 623 00:28:04,559 - > 00:28:06,079 because there's no data link. 624 00:28:06,240 - > 00:28:10,000 There's there's no there is trust between people, and I care 625 00:28:10,000 - > 00:28:10,559 about you. 626 00:28:10,720 - > 00:28:15,200 I care about you enough to think outside the box, in this case, 627 00:28:15,279 - > 00:28:19,599 outside of the AI box, and give you a context that AI 628 00:28:19,759 - > 00:28:23,359 respectfully, and I may be wrong because I mean there's bigger AI 629 00:28:23,359 - > 00:28:27,440 experts out there than me, but AI would not be able to make 630 00:28:27,440 - > 00:28:30,480 that connection because the connection is not there. 631 00:28:30,720 - > 00:28:34,079 It's human, it's human nature and trust. 632 00:28:34,240 - > 00:28:35,839 I think that's super interesting, right? 633 00:28:36,319 - > 00:28:39,920 SPEAKER_01: I fully agree, and I have a really clunky, convoluted 634 00:28:39,920 - > 00:28:43,359 example of that specific thing, but then in the context of 635 00:28:43,359 - > 00:28:48,000 music, because as a musician, obviously, I see they're not 636 00:28:48,000 - > 00:28:48,720 just props. 637 00:28:48,880 - > 00:28:50,960 I I actually can can play a little bit of a virtual 638 00:28:51,039 - > 00:28:52,559 background that gets drama. 639 00:28:52,960 - > 00:28:53,359 Yeah, I see. 640 00:28:53,599 - > 00:28:54,799 I want to look cooler than I am. 641 00:28:54,960 - > 00:28:57,440 No, there's an important angle here when when people talk to me 642 00:28:57,440 - > 00:29:00,319 about, hey, what do you think of AI music and things like that? 643 00:29:00,400 - > 00:29:04,160 And I'm like, well, what it does is it obviously just takes a 644 00:29:04,160 - > 00:29:07,039 pastiche of what we already have and just does that again. 645 00:29:07,200 - > 00:29:10,400 And I understand that if if you're not that into music, that 646 00:29:10,400 - > 00:29:13,599 you can say, well, we all use the same chords, you know, we 647 00:29:13,599 - > 00:29:18,640 all use the same, you know, chorus verse structure. 648 00:29:18,960 - > 00:29:21,759 But there's one thing I always say, and that's I can be 649 00:29:21,759 - > 00:29:25,039 inspired to write something by things that cannot be 650 00:29:25,039 - > 00:29:26,000 computized. 651 00:29:26,240 - > 00:29:30,400 So I can be inspired to write something by seeing a certain 652 00:29:30,400 - > 00:29:34,799 ray of light through shining through a tree, and you cannot 653 00:29:34,799 - > 00:29:38,400 tell me that that ever can be replicated by technology. 654 00:29:38,480 - > 00:29:42,160 And that's why whatever happens, whatever incredibly positive 655 00:29:42,160 - > 00:29:46,720 utopia or dystopic nightmare we go into, humans are still going 656 00:29:46,720 - > 00:29:48,799 to have some type of edge, right? 657 00:29:49,039 - > 00:29:49,279 SPEAKER_00: Yes. 658 00:29:49,599 - > 00:29:51,759 It's creativity you're describing there, right? 659 00:29:51,839 - > 00:29:55,599 And I don't think that the creativity that people think is 660 00:29:55,599 - > 00:29:56,640 there in music, right? 661 00:29:56,799 - > 00:30:00,799 I I remember some of the recent AI music services, right, where 662 00:30:00,799 - > 00:30:03,680 you can put a nice prompt and you're like, wow, it created a 663 00:30:03,680 - > 00:30:04,480 song for me, right? 664 00:30:04,559 - > 00:30:08,079 I even tried it before, uh, of course, respecting copyright and 665 00:30:08,079 - > 00:30:11,759 not using it in any wrong way, but just for fun, at a partner 666 00:30:11,759 - > 00:30:16,160 event, um we did across the region every uh every year we do 667 00:30:16,160 - > 00:30:17,359 business partner summits, right? 668 00:30:17,440 - > 00:30:20,079 And I have to do quite a few because of the 35 countries. 669 00:30:20,240 - > 00:30:24,640 And we did one in Croatia in Sadar for the CET region. 670 00:30:24,720 - > 00:30:27,839 And I thought, hey, couldn't it be fun to see if I could write a 671 00:30:27,839 - > 00:30:32,480 meaningful song on IBM, partnerships, AI, quantum, 672 00:30:32,640 - > 00:30:36,799 automation, data, um, how we build together, how we create 673 00:30:36,799 - > 00:30:40,880 together, but in the context of being there in Sadar, close to 674 00:30:40,880 - > 00:30:42,000 the sea, and all of this. 675 00:30:42,160 - > 00:30:44,880 And I put all of that into, I think it's called Suno, one of 676 00:30:44,880 - > 00:30:46,240 the apps, at least out there, right? 677 00:30:46,400 - > 00:30:49,680 And just for myself and and kind of showing a few colleagues, I 678 00:30:49,680 - > 00:30:50,720 said, listen to this. 679 00:30:50,960 - > 00:30:53,519 It was two minutes of pretty high quality. 680 00:30:53,680 - > 00:30:58,799 I mean, you know, catchy song, but it wasn't creativity from 681 00:30:58,799 - > 00:30:59,759 the AI. 682 00:31:00,079 - > 00:31:04,160 It was my creativity put into the AI and it could only stitch 683 00:31:04,160 - > 00:31:05,440 together what it knew. 684 00:31:05,599 - > 00:31:08,640 It couldn't create something new from if I asked you to do it, 685 00:31:08,799 - > 00:31:11,920 you would sit and look at that ocean, you know, for instance, 686 00:31:12,079 - > 00:31:15,279 if you were with me in Sadar, and you would be inspired and 687 00:31:15,279 - > 00:31:17,759 look at the waves and stuff, and something new would come up, 688 00:31:18,160 - > 00:31:19,279 back to your comment, right? 689 00:31:19,359 - > 00:31:23,119 So that's why, again, circling back to the human edge, that's 690 00:31:23,119 - > 00:31:26,400 why in in partnerships and ecosystem in today's topic that 691 00:31:26,559 - > 00:31:30,400 we're discussing, that's why also that trust, that 692 00:31:30,400 - > 00:31:35,680 creativity, that you know, um anomaly that makes the 693 00:31:35,680 - > 00:31:40,079 partnership beautiful, creates the unexpected, takes it from 694 00:31:40,079 - > 00:31:44,000 just delivering the numbers in quarter to suddenly doubling the 695 00:31:44,000 - > 00:31:47,920 business because we found that anomaly that was cool because of 696 00:31:47,920 - > 00:31:50,319 human beings and trust and the connection. 697 00:31:50,480 - > 00:31:52,799 I don't believe technology will help us solve that. 698 00:31:52,880 - > 00:31:56,319 It will empower it, infuse it, I embrace it, but I'm not worried 699 00:31:56,319 - > 00:31:59,839 that we will be obsolete or that the human angle will get lost. 700 00:32:00,160 - > 00:32:01,039 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love it. 701 00:32:01,119 - > 00:32:02,720 I I think Bob Ross says that, right? 702 00:32:02,880 - > 00:32:04,079 Happy little accidents. 703 00:32:04,319 - > 00:32:04,960 Yeah. 704 00:32:05,440 - > 00:32:07,039 A computer can't really make those. 705 00:32:07,119 - > 00:32:09,359 And if it does it on purpose, they're not accidents, right? 706 00:32:09,440 - > 00:32:12,000 So I think that's really important to take a look at that 707 00:32:12,000 - > 00:32:12,319 edge. 708 00:32:12,559 - > 00:32:16,000 There was one thing I wanted to touch on before we kind of wind 709 00:32:16,000 - > 00:32:18,000 down, because I think legitimately we could talk about 710 00:32:18,000 - > 00:32:20,079 this every week for an hour and it it would be really funny. 711 00:32:20,880 - > 00:32:21,359 Really fun. 712 00:32:21,599 - > 00:32:23,680 But uh, you talked at the beginning a little bit about how 713 00:32:23,680 - > 00:32:27,279 you lead the partner ecosystem at IBM across 35 countries, 714 00:32:27,359 - > 00:32:27,599 right? 715 00:32:27,680 - > 00:32:30,720 And I'm sure you experience enormous variation in market 716 00:32:30,720 - > 00:32:34,400 dynamics, partner expectations, business culture, to which I 717 00:32:34,400 - > 00:32:37,039 always say to everyone, leave all your assumptions at the door 718 00:32:37,039 - > 00:32:38,640 when you start working with a new culture. 719 00:32:38,799 - > 00:32:42,640 But I normally always ask my guy my guests to dive into the 720 00:32:42,640 - > 00:32:44,799 differences between these markets. 721 00:32:44,960 - > 00:32:46,160 But I want to ask you something else. 722 00:32:46,319 - > 00:32:49,519 I want to ask you what patterns are the same across these 723 00:32:49,519 - > 00:32:50,000 markets? 724 00:32:50,400 - > 00:32:50,799 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 725 00:32:50,960 - > 00:32:53,279 And that's that's very interesting because as you say, 726 00:32:53,359 - > 00:32:58,160 it is inherently quite different working in from Denmark, Sweden 727 00:32:58,319 - > 00:33:01,839 to Netherlands, Belgium to Poland, Hungary, Slovenia, 728 00:33:02,079 - > 00:33:04,640 Slovakia, Croatia to Uzbekistan. 729 00:33:05,279 - > 00:33:07,759 There was kind of a line drawn through the territory. 730 00:33:08,000 - > 00:33:11,839 So that is in in you know, in itself super, super different. 731 00:33:11,920 - > 00:33:14,480 And and I love uh your expression, right? 732 00:33:14,559 - > 00:33:18,000 Uh leaving everything at the door in terms of your biases or 733 00:33:18,000 - > 00:33:19,039 thinking you're knowing. 734 00:33:19,200 - > 00:33:22,480 But there are, as you say, things that are the same. 735 00:33:22,559 - > 00:33:27,839 And that's very, very important, I think, that we as human beings 736 00:33:28,160 - > 00:33:30,480 are in that sense quite predictable. 737 00:33:30,640 - > 00:33:33,039 And it's back to some of the words we already talked about, 738 00:33:33,200 - > 00:33:33,519 right? 739 00:33:33,759 - > 00:33:36,319 Everybody wants a trusted relationship. 740 00:33:36,559 - > 00:33:40,240 They want to know that if they go into a new partnership with 741 00:33:40,240 - > 00:33:44,640 my team at IBM, that they can trust that we are there with 742 00:33:44,640 - > 00:33:44,799 them. 743 00:33:44,960 - > 00:33:47,599 So what we laid out, the investments we agreed to make, 744 00:33:47,680 - > 00:33:50,720 the partner plus program, it's a ramp-up phase, right? 745 00:33:50,799 - > 00:33:54,160 And it's built on trust, expectations, business planning, 746 00:33:54,319 - > 00:33:55,920 but we haven't done it yet, right? 747 00:33:56,400 - > 00:33:57,519 That is universal. 748 00:33:57,680 - > 00:34:02,559 If that trust is not there, back to we actually go there and sit 749 00:34:02,559 - > 00:34:06,079 with the partner and show them respect for their business, 750 00:34:06,240 - > 00:34:07,759 listen to their business model. 751 00:34:08,000 - > 00:34:10,639 And one of my favorite expressions, which is also 752 00:34:10,639 - > 00:34:15,440 universal, is don't try to sell a partner or a client your 753 00:34:15,440 - > 00:34:18,719 products, ask what they are trying to solve or achieve 754 00:34:18,719 - > 00:34:19,280 themselves. 755 00:34:19,519 - > 00:34:23,119 I know it's basic, you know, sales school logic, but 756 00:34:23,119 - > 00:34:24,239 sometimes forgotten, right? 757 00:34:24,400 - > 00:34:28,559 Because in the eager of getting my agenda through, my vendor 758 00:34:28,559 - > 00:34:32,639 agenda or my whatever product agenda, you forgot to you forget 759 00:34:32,639 - > 00:34:35,280 to ask the most important question, which is also again 760 00:34:35,440 - > 00:34:38,000 universal across the 35 countries. 761 00:34:38,159 - > 00:34:40,159 How can I help your business grow? 762 00:34:40,400 - > 00:34:44,159 What is it we need to infuse in terms of selling products or 763 00:34:44,159 - > 00:34:48,719 embedding technology or system integration or MSP world that 764 00:34:48,719 - > 00:34:49,519 you touched on, right? 765 00:34:49,599 - > 00:34:52,559 How can we fuel the MSP world, which is a very sensitive world, 766 00:34:52,639 - > 00:34:53,280 by the way, right? 767 00:34:53,360 - > 00:34:57,039 You you can only be successful in an MSP world if you 768 00:34:57,280 - > 00:35:00,639 dramatically help them lower cost or add a product on the 769 00:35:00,639 - > 00:35:03,280 shelf that from day one is selling or service. 770 00:35:03,840 - > 00:35:04,639 That's the only way, right? 771 00:35:04,719 - > 00:35:05,199 In my view. 772 00:35:05,440 - > 00:35:10,800 So I think those things that make us human and the human side 773 00:35:10,800 - > 00:35:15,039 of partnership is really, really universal and something you can 774 00:35:15,039 - > 00:35:16,400 always use as a foundation. 775 00:35:16,559 - > 00:35:20,400 So while you should respect very big differences in culture, 776 00:35:20,559 - > 00:35:23,599 business culture, how human beings interact, uh, you know, 777 00:35:23,760 - > 00:35:27,599 what they see as success and failure, and I mean all of these 778 00:35:27,599 - > 00:35:28,159 differences. 779 00:35:28,480 - > 00:35:30,000 Political environment, right? 780 00:35:30,079 - > 00:35:32,480 Not to not to forget, geopolitics and all of this. 781 00:35:32,559 - > 00:35:34,239 It's it's it's truly different. 782 00:35:34,400 - > 00:35:38,079 There are these universal things of why are we sitting here? 783 00:35:38,320 - > 00:35:39,440 We're here to win. 784 00:35:39,679 - > 00:35:42,000 Both of us win at both sides of the table. 785 00:35:42,159 - > 00:35:44,639 It's almost like everybody should make sure they have these 786 00:35:44,639 - > 00:35:46,239 basic negotiation skills, right? 787 00:35:46,320 - > 00:35:48,000 Because that talks a lot about it as well. 788 00:35:48,159 - > 00:35:50,159 How do you win in a negotiation? 789 00:35:50,239 - > 00:35:52,800 It's not about you winning, it's about us winning. 790 00:35:53,119 - > 00:35:55,760 So I think that that's kind of my take on it, is that there's 791 00:35:55,760 - > 00:35:58,320 much more that is universal than people think. 792 00:35:58,480 - > 00:36:02,000 Because, as you said in your question, we often try to look 793 00:36:02,000 - > 00:36:04,639 at the differences because it's fun to compare. 794 00:36:05,119 - > 00:36:08,400 When I go to Uzbekistan and I come back to Denmark, Sweden, 795 00:36:08,559 - > 00:36:11,280 Netherlands, they all say, So how was it different there? 796 00:36:11,440 - > 00:36:12,800 You know, what kind of world is it? 797 00:36:12,880 - > 00:36:16,480 And how do they, you know, the and and and I actually come back 798 00:36:16,480 - > 00:36:21,360 and think, wow, there's a lot of things that is just human beings 799 00:36:22,079 - > 00:36:26,480 trusting each other or not, wanting to work with each other, 800 00:36:26,559 - > 00:36:29,599 um, you know, sitting down, agreeing things, looking each 801 00:36:29,599 - > 00:36:31,199 other in the eye, greeting each other. 802 00:36:31,280 - > 00:36:32,719 And I think that's universal. 803 00:36:32,800 - > 00:36:36,079 And that's why the things we talked about here in this 804 00:36:36,079 - > 00:36:38,960 podcast about paying it forward, you know, dig your well before 805 00:36:38,960 - > 00:36:39,360 you're thirsty. 806 00:36:39,519 - > 00:36:42,000 We didn't touch on that one, but but it's the same as the bank 807 00:36:42,000 - > 00:36:42,559 account, right? 808 00:36:42,639 - > 00:36:46,960 If if you haven't done the investment when you need it, 809 00:36:47,039 - > 00:36:47,920 it's too late. 810 00:36:48,079 - > 00:36:49,039 You're done, right? 811 00:36:49,119 - > 00:36:51,920 So you have to do it in advance, proactively. 812 00:36:52,079 - > 00:36:53,920 And that's the same in in all countries. 813 00:36:54,079 - > 00:36:57,440 If you're not proactive, if you don't think ahead, it's too late 814 00:36:57,440 - > 00:36:58,880 once the opportunity is there. 815 00:36:59,039 - > 00:37:00,239 Also universal. 816 00:37:00,320 - > 00:37:02,400 So so many universal things. 817 00:37:02,880 - > 00:37:03,760 SPEAKER_01: It's it's awesome. 818 00:37:03,840 - > 00:37:06,320 It's almost like the the laws of logic, right? 819 00:37:06,559 - > 00:37:10,880 They they exist everywhere at all times, in in in kind of all 820 00:37:11,280 - > 00:37:12,639 configurations, so to speak. 821 00:37:12,960 - > 00:37:15,760 SPEAKER_00: And I love the most simple things in life is often 822 00:37:15,760 - > 00:37:18,719 not difficult saying, but very difficult practicing. 823 00:37:19,119 - > 00:37:19,440 SPEAKER_01: 100%. 824 00:37:19,840 - > 00:37:23,199 So there's one Dutch expression that I love so much, which is it 825 00:37:23,199 - > 00:37:26,800 it roughly translates to, I wanted to write you a short 826 00:37:26,800 - > 00:37:28,800 letter, but I didn't have the time. 827 00:37:29,440 - > 00:37:32,639 And that that does that's like the easiest to describe things 828 00:37:32,639 - > 00:37:34,719 are often the hardest to embody. 829 00:37:35,119 - > 00:37:38,880 Before I ask you for your final nuggets of wisdom, of which you 830 00:37:38,880 - > 00:37:41,199 probably have many, I feel like we could just capture all of 831 00:37:41,199 - > 00:37:42,719 them in this conversation already. 832 00:37:42,880 - > 00:37:46,239 Um, we always ask our guests to nominate the next guest on this 833 00:37:46,239 - > 00:37:46,639 podcast. 834 00:37:46,800 - > 00:37:48,639 So who do you have in mind for this? 835 00:37:49,039 - > 00:37:50,960 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so super tough question. 836 00:37:51,039 - > 00:37:54,800 You know, with with 30 years in the industry, the uh the network 837 00:37:54,800 - > 00:37:58,320 is vast and the number of great people is endless, right? 838 00:37:58,480 - > 00:38:01,280 Because I guess that's also why I stayed in the industry for 30 839 00:38:01,280 - > 00:38:02,639 years is twofold, right? 840 00:38:02,719 - > 00:38:05,760 Uh super exciting to work in technology and in IT. 841 00:38:05,840 - > 00:38:07,920 That's never gonna get boring, that's for sure. 842 00:38:08,159 - > 00:38:11,599 Ever changing, but also because of the people, amazing people in 843 00:38:11,599 - > 00:38:15,679 this industry, visionaries and passionate passion is a is a 844 00:38:15,679 - > 00:38:17,280 good word as well, passionate people. 845 00:38:17,440 - > 00:38:21,840 So, no, I was thinking um to nominate one who I met at 846 00:38:21,840 - > 00:38:22,639 VMware. 847 00:38:22,719 - > 00:38:27,280 She came into my team, and instantly I saw all of those, I 848 00:38:27,280 - > 00:38:30,079 would call them at least argue, qualities that we discussed 849 00:38:30,079 - > 00:38:33,280 today on partnership, human-to-human, energy, passion, 850 00:38:33,360 - > 00:38:33,760 drive. 851 00:38:34,000 - > 00:38:35,199 That is also very important. 852 00:38:35,360 - > 00:38:39,519 So Anna Maria Löweberg, which is which is how you pronounce it in 853 00:38:39,519 - > 00:38:43,519 English, I guess, but um but Löweberg in uh in uh in Swedish 854 00:38:44,239 - > 00:38:45,440 from GitLab. 855 00:38:45,599 - > 00:38:49,199 She was just recently uh with us at IBM through the HashiCorp 856 00:38:49,360 - > 00:38:52,559 acquisition, but is now at at GitLab and uh working with 857 00:38:52,559 - > 00:38:53,920 partners across EMEA. 858 00:38:54,000 - > 00:38:56,880 And I think it would be interesting for you and for the 859 00:38:56,880 - > 00:39:00,480 listeners to get her perspective on on ecosystem and and the 860 00:39:00,480 - > 00:39:01,599 journey that she's been on. 861 00:39:01,679 - > 00:39:03,599 So that would be my my nomination. 862 00:39:03,679 - > 00:39:06,960 Uh, a good friend for many, many years and partner in crime, I 863 00:39:06,960 - > 00:39:08,159 would say Anna Maria. 864 00:39:09,119 - > 00:39:09,679 SPEAKER_01: Fantastic. 865 00:39:09,760 - > 00:39:10,880 I'm already looking forward to this one. 866 00:39:11,119 - > 00:39:12,400 I'll definitely reach out to her. 867 00:39:12,480 - > 00:39:13,760 Um, awesome recommendation. 868 00:39:13,920 - > 00:39:17,760 To wrap this up, do you have any final insights, words of wisdom, 869 00:39:17,920 - > 00:39:20,320 tips or tricks that you'd like to share with me or the 870 00:39:20,320 - > 00:39:21,119 audience? 871 00:39:21,679 - > 00:39:25,920 SPEAKER_00: Well, as you said, I think we uh really actually got 872 00:39:25,920 - > 00:39:28,800 through to a lot of them, but but it would be probably 873 00:39:29,119 - > 00:39:32,320 summarizing a bit more than adding a lot of new things, 874 00:39:32,480 - > 00:39:32,719 right? 875 00:39:32,960 - > 00:39:38,239 So I think in summary, human beings and the qualities that we 876 00:39:38,239 - > 00:39:42,239 have and the qualities we have in business is important as 877 00:39:42,239 - > 00:39:42,480 ever. 878 00:39:42,719 - > 00:39:45,920 And my belief, my prediction is they will stay that way. 879 00:39:46,079 - > 00:39:50,000 So I think let's let's remind each other that in the in the 880 00:39:50,000 - > 00:39:55,360 craziness of of AI uh productivity and uh and AI 881 00:39:55,519 - > 00:39:56,320 eagerness. 882 00:39:56,480 - > 00:40:00,639 Let's remind ourselves that it takes investment to get the 883 00:40:00,639 - > 00:40:02,400 result that you want a long term. 884 00:40:02,559 - > 00:40:05,599 So that's back to, and maybe I can put a few more words on on 885 00:40:05,599 - > 00:40:07,440 the dig your well before you're thirsty, right? 886 00:40:07,519 - > 00:40:09,920 Because I think that's an even better picture than the banking 887 00:40:09,920 - > 00:40:13,039 account, is you know, the metaphor standing in the middle 888 00:40:13,039 - > 00:40:17,119 of the desert being very thirsty and you wish you had dug a well 889 00:40:17,280 - > 00:40:21,039 because the water is 20 meters down, it is just inherently too 890 00:40:21,039 - > 00:40:21,840 late, right? 891 00:40:22,079 - > 00:40:26,400 But if you dig a meter every day, right, around that base you 892 00:40:26,400 - > 00:40:29,119 have in the desert, and then once you're thirsty, you know, 893 00:40:29,280 - > 00:40:31,840 and your water runs out, you have ducked that 20 meters down 894 00:40:31,920 - > 00:40:34,639 and you have your water, then you know, you have a better 895 00:40:34,639 - > 00:40:35,119 foundation. 896 00:40:35,199 - > 00:40:38,000 And that's exactly what I believe in in business, in 897 00:40:38,000 - > 00:40:42,960 partnership, in life, in ecosystem, is that's how you 898 00:40:42,960 - > 00:40:43,840 need to think, right? 899 00:40:44,000 - > 00:40:47,519 Prepare, don't take things for granted, you know, invest in it, 900 00:40:47,679 - > 00:40:48,239 think ahead. 901 00:40:48,400 - > 00:40:52,639 And then lastly, I have to put the the, you know, again, as I 902 00:40:52,639 - > 00:40:56,320 said, a little bit uh hard maybe to apply in business because 903 00:40:56,320 - > 00:40:58,719 we're going after quantitative goals every day. 904 00:40:58,800 - > 00:40:59,920 It's pay it forward. 905 00:41:00,480 - > 00:41:04,880 Remember to do something good for people, do something good in 906 00:41:04,880 - > 00:41:08,159 your partnership, in your relationship, in the business, 907 00:41:08,320 - > 00:41:12,960 in your company, for your team, where you don't think about what 908 00:41:12,960 - > 00:41:13,920 do I want back? 909 00:41:14,159 - > 00:41:15,360 What was the goal of this? 910 00:41:15,519 - > 00:41:20,079 The only goal was to help someone, make them smile, give 911 00:41:20,079 - > 00:41:21,119 them a better day. 912 00:41:21,360 - > 00:41:26,000 So pay it forward and just maybe even saying once you you've done 913 00:41:26,000 - > 00:41:26,480 it, right? 914 00:41:26,559 - > 00:41:28,800 The person says, Why did you do this? 915 00:41:28,880 - > 00:41:29,039 Right? 916 00:41:29,119 - > 00:41:29,599 I don't get it. 917 00:41:29,679 - > 00:41:32,320 You're you're you're helping me for no reason, or you said this 918 00:41:32,320 - > 00:41:32,800 for no reason. 919 00:41:32,880 - > 00:41:35,519 You know, they they sometimes they actually do ask you why did 920 00:41:35,519 - > 00:41:35,920 you do it? 921 00:41:36,079 - > 00:41:40,480 And I think our obligation or my my um could I call it call to 922 00:41:40,480 - > 00:41:44,400 action, let's call it that from this podcast, is try to explain 923 00:41:44,559 - > 00:41:45,440 people why you do it. 924 00:41:45,599 - > 00:41:46,480 First of all, do it. 925 00:41:46,719 - > 00:41:49,920 Second, explain why you're doing it, and then tell them to go do 926 00:41:49,920 - > 00:41:53,679 it themselves, because then we spread some, yeah, I would 927 00:41:53,679 - > 00:41:56,800 almost say love and care, which is also applicable in business, 928 00:41:56,880 - > 00:41:57,039 right? 929 00:41:57,119 - > 00:42:00,320 And I and I think it makes business better, it makes the 930 00:42:00,320 - > 00:42:00,800 world better. 931 00:42:01,039 - > 00:42:03,599 So there's absolutely no reason for not doing it. 932 00:42:04,320 - > 00:42:06,159 SPEAKER_01: I have literally nothing to add. 933 00:42:06,239 - > 00:42:07,280 I fully agree. 934 00:42:07,440 - > 00:42:09,840 Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and uh taking the 935 00:42:09,840 - > 00:42:10,639 time to speak with me. 936 00:42:10,719 - > 00:42:11,519 I had a blast. 937 00:42:11,599 - > 00:42:13,440 Uh I really appreciate the insights you shared. 938 00:42:13,519 - > 00:42:16,719 It's it's a fascinating look into how someone like you with 939 00:42:16,719 - > 00:42:19,760 your experience can really take all these learnings and condense 940 00:42:19,760 - > 00:42:22,239 them into such an easy-to-understand narrative. 941 00:42:22,320 - > 00:42:25,519 And I think our listeners will definitely pull a lot out of 942 00:42:25,519 - > 00:42:25,760 this. 943 00:42:25,920 - > 00:42:28,880 Speaking of listeners, dear listeners, thank you for tuning 944 00:42:28,880 - > 00:42:29,039 in. 945 00:42:29,119 - > 00:42:30,639 And uh, we'll see you in the next episode. 946 00:42:31,199 - > 00:42:31,840 Thanks, Thomas. 947 00:42:32,159 - > 00:42:33,280 Thank you so much.