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Index/Leadership/Office Hours with David Meltzer
Office Hours with David Meltzer artwork

Office Hours #901 | The Future of Business: Nuclear Energy, AI-Powered Growth & Eliminating Toxic Workplaces

Office Hours with David Meltzer · 2026-06-25 · 32 min

0:00--:--

Key moments - from our scoring

Substance score

27 / 100

Five dimensions, 20 points each

Insight Density5 / 20
Originality5 / 20
Guest Caliber8 / 20
Specificity & Evidence5 / 20
Conversational Craft4 / 20

Office Hours #901 explores three distinct leadership challenges reshaping business today: nuclear energy's resurgence through co-founder Caroline DeWitt of Oklo; AI-powered growth strategies via Heather DeSantis of Publicity for Good; and toxic workplace cultures with Catherine Matice of Civility Partners. DeWitt discusses building a scaled nuclear energy company alongside her MIT-engineer spouse, emphasizing clear role division and staying mission-focused during the pre-mainstream years before data centers made nuclear energy a mainstream conversation. DeSantis unpacks Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) as the evolution beyond SEO - explaining how brands now rank in AI chatbots through third-party media mentions, consistent NAP (name, address, phone) data, and thought leadership rather than paid placements. Matice advocates for the "Upstander Training Toolkit," positioning empathetic workplace conversations as the antidote to hypersensitivity and perceived toxicity, arguing most conflicts resolve through direct dialogue rather than institutional policies. The episode serves B2B leaders, founders, and HR practitioners navigating nuclear supply chains, AI visibility strategies, and team dynamics in hyperpolarized environments. Host David Meltzer ties each segment to practical scaling lessons, emphasizing that sustainable growth requires energy infrastructure, brand authority in AI systems, and psychological safety in teams.

Key takeaways

  • →Caroline De Witt shares that successful founder teams need clear division of responsibilities and separated work/home interactions, even when spouses work together on the same company.
  • →Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) requires third-party media mentions and high-authority backlinks rather than just SEO keywords, as AI language models pull recommendations from validated press coverage.
  • →Toxic workplace environments often stem from poor communication rather than genuinely toxic behavior; leaders should facilitate direct conversations between parties to resolve conflicts.
  • →Small, mission-driven brands can compete with large established brands for AI recommendations by consistently getting featured in media and maintaining accurate business information across platforms.
  • →The upstander training toolkit teaches workforces to have empathetic, safe conversations about workplace conflicts rather than avoiding difficult discussions.

In this episode

  1. 1Nuclear Energy Innovation and Founder Partnerships at Oklo
  2. 2AI-Powered Growth and Answer Engine Optimization with Publicity for Good
  3. 3Building Trust and Eliminating Toxic Workplaces Through Upstander Training

Mentioned

David MeltzerOkloCaroline De WittMITY CombinatorNvidiaLos AlamosQuickBooksIntuitPublicity for GoodHeather HolmesCatherine Matice

Guests

Caroline De WittHeather HolmesCatherine Matice

Topics in this episode

Answer Engine Optimization (AEO)ChatGPTOkloNuclear energyLanguage Learning Models (LLMs)Publicity for GoodCivility PartnersUpstander trainingToxic workplacesSupply chain challenges

Questions this episode answers

How does Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) differ from traditional SEO for brand visibility in AI?

AEO requires third-party media features, podcast mentions, and consistent citations across high-authority platforms like Medium and LinkedIn - Google traffic is down but AI purchase intent is higher. Unlike SEO, you cannot buy AEO rankings; brands must be validated through earned media and reverse-engineered based on what consumers search for in ChatGPT and other LLMs.

What founding lessons has Oklo learned about staying focused before mainstream adoption?

Co-founder Caroline DeWitt credits Y Combinator's advice: you don't start a startup to make money but to solve a problem. With site permits dating to 2019 and years of relative obscurity before AI data centers made nuclear energy a mainstream conversation, maintaining clear role division with her spouse (he leads fundraising/strategy as CEO, she handles operations/regulatory) and staying mission-focused on the energy problem kept the company funded and locked in.

What is the Upstander Training Toolkit and how does it address workplace toxicity?

Catherine Matice's toolkit teaches employees to facilitate safe conversations about conflicts rather than escalate them - the core principle is that most workplace problems resolve through direct dialogue and empathy. She argues the word "toxic" is overused; managers should distinguish between a challenging environment (which energizes some) and genuine harm by gut-checking with peers, and if unhappy, addressing it directly or leaving.

How should physicians and medical professionals build their brand in AI search results?

According to Heather DeSantis, physicians need to think like marketers: reverse-engineer what patients search for in ChatGPT ("who is the best surgeon for X?"), join local directories and chambers, secure backlinks from authority websites, and publish thought leadership tied to current news. The strategy is not unique to medicine - it's about becoming the credible answer to high-intent searches, not just having a website.

How do co-founders working as spouses manage work-life balance without blurring roles?

Caroline and Jake DeWitt maintain separate domains and clarify to staff that marriage doesn't mean automatic internal communication - people must share info directly rather than assume spousal knowledge. They also note their work days don't overlap significantly, and having a child forced intentional "off" time, though as founders they remain 24/7 mentally engaged with the mission.

What our scoring noted

Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.

Insight Density

5 / 20

The vast majority of the episode is event promotion, sponsor mentions, and social chatter, leaving only scattered minutes of actual substance. The AEO/PR segment offers a few functional tips, but the nuclear guest's segment was largely lost to connectivity issues and the workplace advice is largely platitudes about communication.

Google traffic is down and there's higher purchase intent when someone is searching for who is the best attorney or who is the best business coach
Medium and LinkedIn are extremely powerful and Then you need to take all your publicity and post it on social and syndicate it

Originality

5 / 20

The AEO/LLM-ranking framing is timely and offers mild novelty (ChatGPT shop function for Shopify sellers, reverse-engineering what ranks to pitch those outlets), but nothing is developed far enough to be genuinely contrarian or first-principles; the toxic-workplace segment reverts to standard HR wisdom.

you can reverse engineer. You should, you should do a search to see what's coming up for what you want to rank for and then reach out to all those publications to get featured
Chat GPT has a shop function. So if you're selling products on Shopify, I can literally buy products that is high purchase intent

Guest Caliber

8 / 20

Credentials are legitimate - MIT nuclear engineers who founded and operate a real advanced-reactor company, a working PR practitioner, and a published workplace-culture specialist - but the nuclear co-founder's segment was rendered nearly valueless by repeated connectivity failures, wasting the highest-caliber guest on the show.

we met in grad school at MIT in nuclear engineering
I coach leaders accused of bullying or creating a, a toxic team environment

Specificity & Evidence

5 / 20

A handful of concrete reference points exist (Oklo's 2019 Idaho site-use permit, Nvidia and Los Alamos partnerships, the '65% of entrepreneurs' statistic) but they are mentioned in passing without elaboration, and the segment most capable of delivering hard data - the nuclear interview - was cut off by technical issues.

the site use permit in Idaho goes back to 2019, long before AI Data Center
this new book, don't do Business with Dicks is being released because 65% of entrepreneurs are failing for scams

Conversational Craft

4 / 20

The host predominantly uses questions as springboards for self-promotion and warm affirmation rather than probing follow-ups; the nuclear segment is never rescued from its connectivity collapse, and most exchanges end with unchallenged compliments rather than productive pressure. Rob Gill occasionally asks sharper questions but they are not followed through.

Well, you and Jake are answering America's energy wake up call
And what happens to the businesses that ignore this and assume it's just SEO without a new label?

Conversation analysis

Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.

Share of words spoken

  • Speaker B49%
  • Speaker F13%
  • Speaker C11%
  • Speaker E10%
  • Speaker A9%
  • Speaker D8%

Most-used words

thank15energy13nuclear12back10workplace10jason9question9answer9catherine9start8help8understand8brand8toxic8love7quickbooks7

Episode notes

Caroline DeWitte is the co-founder and Chief Operating Officer of Oklo, a company developing advanced nuclear technology focused on clean energy, fuel recycling, and isotope production. With a background in engineering, energy innovation, government, defense, and intellectual property, she has dedicated her career to bringing cutting-edge technologies to market. A graduate of the University of Oklahoma and MIT, where she researched reactor safety, Caroline has also served on the U.S. Department of Energy Nuclear Energy Advisory Committee. As one of the few women to co-found a publicly traded company in recent years, she is helping shape the future of reliable and scalable nuclear energy.Heather DeSantis Holmes is the Founder and CEO of Publicity for Good, an award-winning PR agency that helps purpose-driven and consumer brands grow through strategic storytelling and media exposure. Recognized by outlets such as Entrepreneur, Fox News, and Business Insider, Heather has built a reputation for helping businesses amplify their impact while staying true to their mission.

Full transcript

32 min

Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.

Speaker A: To it.

Speaker B: I don't know if we talked about coming to see us, but we got a lot going on. And this is to just enlighten both of you guys where we're going to be. Uh, we're gonna be in Chicago, and then we'll be in Newport, uh, beach with Jay Abraham, with Tim Story, Marie Diamond. Then we'll be moving on to, uh, look at that. Las Vegas back for summer league. Uh, great stuff going on in Las Vegas for summer league. Then we'll be in New York City for Fanatics Fest. We got the All Star game. They missed that. Uh, the All Star game in Philly, New York City for Fanatics Fest. SOFI Stadium in Los Angeles. We got a deal with Messi with the Miami fc. So we'll be down in Miami with Messi, who's having a hell of a World Cup. And then the investor, private member group in. That's right, London. Uh, so we got the biggest, brightest, and wealthiest, meaning us, in London. So that's how you get to 200 cities, guys. Uh, like I said, you got to be out there. You got to be living like our surgeon, uh, does. How many. How many surgeries do.

Speaker C: Yesterday, uh, yesterday I had six. So, yeah, quite.

Speaker B: Not only. Not only is that very active, but it's a hell of a payday there, Jason. Yeah, I love. I love when doctors get rewarded because they're amazing. All right,

Speaker D: I have a question. Did you make a partnership with Intuit?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker D: Amazing. Can we just, like, like. Yeah, pretty amazing.

Speaker B: QuickBooks is, uh, I'm a partner with QuickBooks. I'm an ambassador for, uh, QuickBooks. And by doing the videos for QuickBooks, I kept saying QuickBook, and they kept sending the video back going. If you don't start saying QuickBooks, we're going to cancel this deal. So I got really quick, uh, on understanding QuickBooks by Intuit. Uh, no more. They're incredible. Everybody uses QuickBook. And you know QuickBooks, and you know why. Uh, but anyways, um, if you want to join us, email me davidmeltzer.com or join our text community to stay informed or invited. Uh, so you can, uh, say, stay informed and Invited. Area code 949. The next three numbers are 298, 2905. We even created a jingle. I don't know if you guys heard it. Got here early enough. Just Gigi's supposed to play the jingle for, like, ten minutes. Uh, if you want to know where David's gonna be. That's right. Just dial those numbers. All right, enough rambling. Because we got cool guests in the green room. Speaking of cool guests, Caroline De Witt is here out of Oklahoma City, founder and co, founder and COO of oklo. And uh, we are here to talk about that journey.

Speaker E: Yes.

Speaker B: And the leadership lessons. I, I call it the dummy tax, Carolyn. So thank you for joining us on office hours.

Speaker F: I love it. Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: Well, it's not easy to found a company. It's not easy to find a company and stay in business and it's not easy to found a company, stay in business and make money on top of that. Uh, somehow you've been able to do that, um, and with your spouse. Nonetheless, uh, that's not happening in my, my, uh, house. And I don't think it's happening. Robert, Jason's is either. Um, but this is an amazing thing. What lessons have you learned in leadership actually working with your spouse?

Speaker F: Ah, uh, interesting question. Um, you know, I think, I think early, from the very get go, we had pretty clear division of responsibilities and different, uh, expertises, even though we met in grad school at MIT in nuclear engineering. So we're both engineers, you know, both have that background. But very quickly, um, we, he, you know, he is CEO. CEO, which actually like really aligns well with his, his capabilities and skills. So like, you know, leading on fundraising, leading on kind of strategy, uh, that sort of thing. I'm CEO and I've really kind of owned things like our regulatory strategy, legal, um, regulatory, um, uh, operations, biz ops, people ops and comms and that sort of thing. So interestingly enough, people are like, oh, you know, you're constantly, you know, not only working but living with your spouse. And it's like actually I kind of don't see them all day and our roles are divided enough. And I think that's, you know, I think that's probably, I imagine, a recipe for success for any type of founder team.

Speaker B: Yeah, I travel 200 days a year and that's definitely been a recipe for success with my wife, uh, leaving every week for a couple days. So she misses me. Uh, also being in Oklahoma, I, I can't imagine, uh, you know, the conversations and the friends you have going out to dinner when both of you are nuclear, uh, engineers from mit.

Speaker D: Holy.

Speaker B: You can imagine some of these old oil, old, old oil and gas cowboys in Oklahoma having dinner with you guys. That would be enjoyable,

Speaker F: no doubt. Yeah. It's funny, uh, we, we've been in California for the last 11ish years. But um, it's funny you bring that up because literally Last night I was having a dinner kind of hosting with a bunch of energy, uh, and other leaders in, in Oklahoma. But, you know, energy is energy and there's a lot to be said for like, hey, like, and hard tech, which we kind of call it in Silicon Valley. But I think, you know, people do real things across the country. You know, they don't call it hard tech, but it's. It's same stuff. You're fighting for supply chain, you're fighting for workforce, you got some of the same things delaying, uh, projects or enabling projects. So it's been kind of fun, actually. Uh, it's relatively recent to be here, um, but it's been really helpful, honestly. Uh, just being in the center of the country because we've got projects going on in Texas, Ohio and um, most of our travels back to the East Coast. So California didn't end up being really always the best place for me personally and Jake also to I think be located day to day.

Speaker D: M. You know, Oklahoma has been been at this for some years now. And the site use permit in Idaho goes back to 2019, long before AI Data Center.

Speaker F: Yeah.

Speaker D: Turns energy into like a table conversation. Now you're announcing, you know, things like Nvidia and Los Alamos partnerships, clearing the DOE safety milestones for the Aurora powerhouse. I guess my question is overnight success is always 10 years in the making. Everyone's paying attention. What is it like convicted and keep the company funded, moving during the years when nuclear wasn't the story and staying, you know, three feet from gold. How are you able to stay locked in?

Speaker F: I mean, uh, I was just reflecting on that as I was thinking about this, this podcast and, and just thinking, you know, what lessons have I learned or what advice would I give? And it's. I think, I think they said this at Y Combinator and I thought it was kind of interesting, which is like, you don't start a startup to make money. I think some people still do, but, like, I think that's not.

Speaker D: I like that I got the gist of what she was saying there. Yeah, we, uh, you do it to solve a problem, not to make money.

Speaker B: Oh, Gigi, can we help out a little bit, man?

Speaker F: My Internet's not great. Sorry about that.

Speaker B: We got the gist of that. And j. Oh, shoot, that's my letter back in. And then, Jason, why don't you ask the next question? Sure.

Speaker C: Caroline, thanks for being here. Um, my youngest is named Caroline, so we have a little bit of a bond, but I also actually get to work with my wife on A pretty regular basis. She's an anesthesiologist. So uh, every Friday we work together. Um, for you it doesn't get much higher.

Speaker F: Yeah.

Speaker C: Than things like nuclear energy, but then also trying to manage life, founding a company with your spouse. Um, what, what are the thing, what are the ways that you guys have, have navigated challenges, not only uh, managing kind of this, the cutting edge nuclear energy, but, but managing that when you get home, uh, get home and live with your spouse, they better put some

Speaker B: more energy into those data centers so they got better connectivity. Right.

Speaker F: Uh, can you hear me?

Speaker C: Yep, we can hear you.

Speaker F: Yeah. Yeah, I, I, uh, I think I got most of the question, which is like, you know, how do you kind of divvy up work life balance? Is it more or less?

Speaker C: Yeah, there's maybe no such thing as a true balance. But uh, but certainly when working life are colliding like that with your spouse. I see that every day in my own house. But I was just going to see what your thoughts were in terms of, of, of getting to where you've been, uh, together like that.

Speaker F: Yeah, I, I think um, I think one of the things that, that we've had to kind of help others maybe understand is like, like I said, our days don't always overlap and um, and frequently don't. And it's not like we spend our entire evenings recapping our entire days to each other. So people, One of the things we've had to help people understand is like, hey, we may be married, but like, that doesn't mean I'm, I know telepathically everything, uh, that you've already told somebody else. Um, and so I think that's part of it is just making sure that people understand. Like, don't assume that we're, we're doing the communications job for you and that when we're kind of at home, we're at home. So, uh, I think that's been helpful. Um, we had a child a couple years ago, so I think that kind of forces that kind of. Hey, there's a time when we're actually off, um, a little bit. Um, but you know, as founders, you're kind of 247 and that's just the way I think it makes sense.

Speaker B: Well, you and Jake are answering America's energy wake up call. And this nuclear industry, uh, resurgence, it's amazing how safe and compact nuclear energy is today. And specifically utilizing them in data centers. I've been working for that energy moment to hit the mainstream. It seems if the timing for this MIT Couple. This extraordinary energy couple, uh, has hit. And, uh, it's nice to know that we have people like you and Jake that are scaling the future of reliable, scalable nuclear energy, because we certainly need it, especially with the demands of our data centers. Promise us you'll come back. We appreciate you so much and thank you. Congratulations on your success. If you're interested in learning more, go to oklo.com oklo.com. thank you, Caroline. And next time, we'll bring Jake. Thanks.

Speaker F: Sounds good.

Speaker B: So cool. And I didn't know your wife was, uh, working with you as an anesthesiologist on Fridays. No wonder. That makes a lot of sense. All right, the double H is here. Uh, she is the queen of publicity because she's the founder and CEO at Publicity for Good. So everything in her life, like mine, has to have a charitable purpose or cause tied to it. Uh, she is a great student, a great mentee, and a great mentor to others. Uh, come on aboard. Office Hours Episode 901 Heather Holmes hey, look at that. Go unmute yourself or have the baby unmute you. Look at that baby.

Speaker E: Yeah. We're so excited to be here. And this is Luke.

Speaker B: Hey, Luke. Hey, Luke. Hey, buddy. He is gorgeous. Well, thank you. Thank you for taking the time, uh, with us and we absolutely accept, uh, the higher beings alongside. So, uh, definitely thank you for bringing Lucas. Uh, so I want to talk about what most people don't understand. They understand SEO, but they don't understand aeo, um, and this answer engine optimization flywheel. And there's a dependency that a lot of people don't realize between the growth of their business and the brand that AI is recommending. Uh, and this is not an old, uh, scenario. A lot of people don't even use AI yet. I know that might be hard to believe. They don't know how to use it. They are asking questions and getting the wrong answers because they're asking the wrong questions. Uh, especially during those periods of time which is called pre Chasm, uh, pre chasm web 1 to 2.5. This was always true, uh, to understand how our brands recommended through these different technologies. And I wanted to start there because people don't realize what you do is so important to what the brands, uh, are going to. Which brands are going to be recommended. Uh, so how do brands get recommended today with AEO answering and optimization within the context of AI searches?

Speaker E: Well, there's a couple different things. Google traffic is down and there's higher purchase intent when someone is searching for who is the best attorney or who is the best business coach to help me scale to seven figures. All of that is happening through getting in the media, third party citations. So it includes being on your podcast, it includes being in the media. Um, other people have to talk about you and endorse you. So the only way you're going to get recommended in the LLMs with AEO and GEO is media getting featured in the media. And you can't buy these type of things. Like you need to be validated in these press articles and you can reverse engineer. You should, you should do a search to see what's coming up for what you want to rank for and then reach out to all those publications to get featured.

Speaker B: You know, beautiful Rob, that sounded like

Speaker D: a billion dollars worth of advice right there. So I'm just trying to let it get into my head. But you kind of asked the question what I was thinking and I'm, and I'm, I'm gonna go Big brands. Here's my limited belief. Big brands have decades of article reviews and mentions for AI to pull from. So when someone asks Chat GPT for a recommendation, they have a head start, right? That's a normal argument. But could a small mission driven brand actually compete and get named? I think you just said that. And what happens to the businesses that ignore this and assume it's just SEO without a new label?

Speaker E: So you're not going to be found, you're going to be invisible. That's the first thing. The second thing is all companies need to make sure their bio, name, address and phone number are consistent on all platforms. Otherwise you're not going to be ranking as well. And you can't say, hey, I'm launching a new book on a newswire. You need to have data, right? This new book, don't do Business with Dicks is being released because 65% of entrepreneurs are failing for scams. Everyone's sending you a dm, trying to sell you an article. So instead of just selling a product, we need to have data into what we do and leaning into thought leadership as well. So a lot of thought leadership, um, and a lot of news jacking. So whatever is going on in the news, you stepping into giving your opinion

Speaker D: just on a normal video on Instagram and TikTok, if you have an audience. Or is it more podcast interviews and stuff like that?

Speaker E: No. So it needs to be other people's websites.

Speaker D: Gotcha.

Speaker E: So if we look at the scheme on how to rank in the LLMs, it's high domain ranking. Websites Medium and LinkedIn are extremely powerful and Then you need to take all your publicity and post it on social and syndicate it, if that makes sense.

Speaker B: Amplify, capture, amplify, modify, perpetuate. She's the expert and has been doing it for hundreds of my clients, uh, for years and just taking them to the next level. Dr. Jason Piper, you're building a brand and uh, you're starting to realize how to utilize it for business.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. As we keep uh, moving forward with high stakes leadership and building my own brand, I can't help but wonder, how do you see this fitting into the medical field, um, for not only surgeons but any physicians, Physician, uh, assistants, nurse practitioners as they try to build their businesses. Um, is the strategy different or is the strategy just something that, ah, a lot of us medical doctors maybe need to pull our heads out of the sand.

Speaker E: We need to think differently and that it's what is our customer searching for because everyone is becoming their own doctor. So we need to have our companies rank in the LLMs for what they're searching for. And there's a lot of value in local directories, joining chambers, getting backlinks from their websites. It's all of those authority links that are helping you rank in the LLMs. People aren't thinking that way. People are using ChatGPT to write articles or reverse engineering to get people to rank in the LLMs. Four key terms you can even buy. Now, Chat GPT has a shop function. So if you're selling products on Shopify, I can literally buy products that is high purchase intent.

Speaker C: That's awesome.

Speaker B: You know, most. This is such a. Oh, most of all, it's such a good example why we need people like Heather. You know, people ask me all the time. That our doctors, Jason, that think differently about why even if they know about AO or SEO or G Go, but they're just thinking, I got to get me on a website, not oh, people search this way, therefore you need to be the answer to that search. Um, and that's where these experts like Heather have really helped. Thought leader, Friends of Mine podcast, uh, financial services, uh, Rob guys, uh, with some of them, you know, uh, financial lines of credit, uh, credit facilitation, um, because I have no idea, uh, about, you know, what people are searching for and what sources are answering it. And that seems to be a big part of the game. And then you need the relationship capital like Heather to get you into Good Morning America if that's where you need to be, or the post or wherever it is. So Heather, I know you've done just amazing things with my brand and helping me understand how to be the answer to what people are searching for. And also being able to have the relationships to get you into those sources that people are looking to with credibility. Uh, both Rob Gill and Dr. Piper and I, uh, we certainly appreciate you taking the time as well as including at all times a product, a, uh, purpose or a cause to everything you do. That's certainly aligned with the three of us as well. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker F: Yeah.

Speaker E: And if I can help and anyone wants my free book, reach out. So much gratitude. I hope you enjoy meeting Luke. I woke him up, but you guys can literally run a business, have babies, do it all. So you did it. So thank you.

Speaker B: Yeah, we all did. And we are rocking and rolling publicity for good.com@HeatherDeSantis. Thank you, Heather, so much.

Speaker E: Thank you. See you guys. Bye.

Speaker B: Bye. All right, coming into the home stretch, we had three wonderful women today. Makes me proud. Catherine Matisse. Matisse is. Is here. She's from my hometown, believe it or not. What's the problem?

Speaker E: Gigi not here yet? We are reaching out to see what happened.

Speaker B: Oh, bummer. She's in California. That's where, uh, me, Reggie Bush, Alex, uh, Alex Smith, we all. We all played ball in La Mesa. By the way, Dr. Piper, who'd you play ball with?

Speaker C: You have Drew Brees back in the day.

Speaker B: Not bad. Drew Brees. And he was just as good as he is now.

Speaker C: Doing all right. Oh, man, he was amazing. He was amazing back in the day. Um, amazing now as well, but, uh, but pretty incredible.

Speaker B: He's a good person like you. And, uh, I always like to find out, you know, I was blessed to go to August high school. So we had, you know, Eric Harris, Matt Noakes, Chris Riley. Uh, we had Kipper Bell, you know, later. Oh, there's Catherine. All right, right on time. We'll bring Catherine on, but say how to do for us. All right, we'll add Catherine. I guess not. Once again, from my hometown of La Mesa, California, I'm a Patrick Henry patriot at heart. Grew up in Del Cerro, the San Carlos in La Mesa. Uh, but more importantly, founder and CEO of Civility Partners, the amazing Catherine Matice. Is that how I pronounce it? Matice? Yes, I got it. All right, well, let's talk and get right into it. Um, you guys have an upstander training toolkit. Um, and this is designed to help leaders and consultants confidently and confidently and comfortably facilitate conversations, uh, in the workplace, which gets to be very difficult. Last year about this time, you came out with a book, Navigating a Toxic Workplace for Dummies. Um, that another big issue. Uh, things have changed in the workplace. People are hypersensitive, in my opinion. Uh, and they're hypercritical as well. Um, this creates more toxicity. It doesn't resolve it. Uh, if you could re engineer the workplace today with your training toolkit, what would be some of the things in the toolkit that you think best can re engineer this difficult position we put ourselves in, uh, with the upstanders and upstanding conversations.

Speaker A: Yeah, I find that a lot of problems could be solved if people would just talk to each other. And that's, uh, really the point of the upstander training. I think about I coach leaders accused of bullying or creating a, a toxic team environment. If the CEO would just be willing to talk to that person and hold them accountable, it would be fine. Or if we all work together and one of you hurts my feelings, or vice versa, if we could talk about it, it could be fine. Um, but as, uh, we know, humans aren't great at that. That's why marriages end in divorce. We have therapists and, you know, lawyers and all the things. So the whole point of the upstander, uh, training is really, um, you know, teaching the workforce to take control of those scenarios and to be able to have safe conversations about, you know, how you're feeling or what you need from each other. And I think that would save a world of hurt for everybody. The empathy. So to go back to your question about redesigning, I think if we could redesign work in general to include more empathy, that would be great.

Speaker B: Speaking my language. Speaking my language. And my hometown girl. Rob Gill.

Speaker D: Yeah. So, uh, so nice to meet you, Catherine. And, and you started this work after being bullied yourself. For someone reading your book right now and wondering about their own job experience, how do you tell the difference? And this is kind of what Dave just talked about. Between a workplace that's hard versus demanding and one that's genuinely toxic. And what's the first thing you would tell somebody about that?

Speaker A: Follow your gut. That's the short answer. The long answer is, well, the second part is then check. Gut check. Right. Talk to people about it. Um, and the problem is perception. Everybody. You know, you could have a team of people. Half of the team thinks the manager is challenging, but they're energized by it and it makes them want to work harder. The other half could say, well, their behavior feels toxic to me. So as you and I talk, David, um, the word toxic is overused. Um, so that's my answer. I mean, check your gut either way, whether it's toxic or not. If you're unhappy and you don't like it personally, then leave.

Speaker B: Yep, great, great advice, by the way. I know there's no toxicity in your life. Uh, Dr. Jason Pifer, all your employees are happy, harmonious, and, uh, you are too soft, in my opinion. Uh, but nonetheless, you have a question for my friend Catherine.

Speaker C: So I'll, uh, this is actually something that I have become quite passionate about when it comes to the operating room and it comes to the or because we do see a lot of big, big personalities. Um, and, and so one of the things I advocate for my, my teams is, hey, you're going to sleep in the bed you make for yourself. If you, if you let people shout you down and yell at you, and that means that you move faster and you get them more things and you m. Grease the wheel for them, uh, then you're going to see that that's. Eventually everybody's going to start acting like that. Every surgeon is going to know I get the second room if I yell at the, if I make the charge nurse cry. Right. Um, when you're seeing folks and empowering these, um, employees and managers to manage these situations, what do you see as the biggest, the biggest pitfall outside of communication? Um, when you're trying to work that

Speaker A: from the inside, outside of communication, what's the biggest pitfall? Goodness, that's a hard question. The answer is always communication. Um, I think, um, just kind of speaking to your world of health care. Healthcare has a lot of the risk factors that research finds creates a toxic work environment. Maybe that's my answer. Culture exists beyond the people and their own communication. The organization itself facilitates good or bad behavior, and certainly it's facilitating bad behavior that's unintentional. Um, so as an example of that, healthcare is fairly bureaucratic, right? Lots of rules and regulations and red tape and compliance. Research, um, finds that that facilitates bad behavior. It doesn't mean it absolutely will happen, but I, um, could use it to bully you if I have. If you want something from me and I have to put you through all the rigmarole, it gives me a tool. It's a lot harder for people in bureaucratic organizations to get sort of immediate results from things they're complaining about. Um, so I get. That's my answer. Aside from communication, the biggest pitfall is the organization needs to look at itself.

Speaker C: Love it.

Speaker B: If you're looking for a system, a white label training toolkit, Upstander has it for you with our, uh, friend Catherine Matthias. Uh, you can go ahead and reach out to get that training toolkit for the internal leaders and consultants to be comfortable and confident in facilitating those meaningful conversations in the workplace. But also if you're more like me and just a dummy, there's a book for us out there, Navigating a Toxic Workplace for Dummy. The answers are there for you as well. It'll allow you to figure out, figure out what causes our environments to turn sour and what you, an employee, manager or leader can do about it. Uh, I picked my agent. My original agent was Eckhart Tolle and the dummy books agent. And I said that's a perfect combination to represent David Meltzer's books, the dummy books, and Eckhart Tolle. So, uh, Catherine Matthias, La Mesa, California, my hometown. Thank you so much. Please come up and visit us. Be a part of our mastermind. Everybody has these issues, just like mommy issues. We all have toxicity issues in the workplace. So please come and help us. Thank you for joining us.

Speaker A: Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: Great to see you again. Thank you. Uh, she's awesome. All. Uh, right, gentlemen, my favorite time of the day. We can talk and have as much intellectual entertainment as people can handle, but if they don't take anything away, what good is it? So I always bring a few minutes at the end of every show so that we can discuss our takeaways of the day. I'm going to start with you because Rob's making money below you. I could tell already. Dr. Jason Piper, what's your takeaway of the day?

Speaker C: So the word that stood out to me was, was good. Right? And we talk about willing the good of the other. And you've got publicity for good. You've got nuclear energy changing and we've got, uh, uh, you know, managing toxicity in the workplace. But all of that is really building up and supporting and serving, uh, serving their communities and serving the people that they work for and work with. Um, uh, and, and so I really like that. I like the, the service side of this and willing the good.

Speaker B: Yeah, willing the good. You know, I'd love that as well. And unless Rob Gill's ready to go. Take away. How much money did you make? Just.

Speaker C: I was.

Speaker D: No, I'm. Yes, I, I was amazed by the difference in each person and the dynamic folks that come on here, which is amazing to me. Um, and we think about geo, SEO and now aeo. That's a brand new thing for me. And each person's a brand and and then obviously the couple in the nuclear space like all these different things. Then there's bullying, right? There's there's false accusations or real accusations all the time. So super, uh, grateful to be a part of this. And, and, and you know those are my takeaways.

Speaker B: I love it. My takeaway is really the afters. You know we so much of the time talk about what is happening, what we can do for you, all of these things for good. Um but I love focusing on you know what is it going to do after. You know after we have new nuclear safe nuclear power at these data centers. What's it going to be after that we have a harmonious workplace. What is it going to be like after we build our brand? Because if we start looking in that vision of what this is going to look like after we can start really looking at things for the sake of what are we doing it not just setting some arbitrary capricious goal of I'll be happy when. And so I want everybody to take away from today focusing on what this is going to look like after we work with Caroline, after we work with Heather and after we work with Katherine. All three would be a better place to live. That's what we're doing here. Empowering over a billion people to be happy with Office Hours episode 9 101. I couldn't ask for two better co hosts than Dr. Jason Pifer and the incredible Rob Gill. Please follow these guys. They have great brands, high stakes leadership. Follow that. Look them up. And of course Epic Financial. If you're looking for true wealth, look uh to Rob Gill. He certainly has helped me. Jason, Rob. I look forward to seeing you guys next week.

Speaker C: Awesome.

Speaker B: Congrats. All right everybody. That's office hours episode 901. We're gonna be like I said in Chicago. Then we're going to be in uh Newport beach on Tuesday with Tim Story, Jay Abraham, Marie Diamond, Many many more. Then we'll be in Vegas for summer league. We'll be in Philly. For them will be all Star Game. New York City for Fanatics Fest. All include interview speeches, meetups, holding courts and VIP dinners for charity. We're raising thousands of dollars. 000 for so many different charities. We're back to SoFi Stadium and then in Miami FC to see Messi and then the big private member Financial London Mastermind. Come and see us there. That's how you get to 200 cities a day if you want to be informed and Invited. Area code 949. Next three numbers, 298. Last four numbers. 2905-994929-82905. Text me to get informed and invited. Email me. David means beloved. Uh, first initial. Meltzer means servant. David.Meltzer.com. let me be your beloved servant. But most importantly, be more interested than interesting. Be kind. Please be kind to your future self and do good deeds. Hit a Gigi.

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