S4E6: Kate Mitchell, Katie Stokel & Kelly Williams on Career Evolutions

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: I'm Eileen Mancera, co chair of PE Win's communications committee. For those of you joining for the first time, Moments that Made her is a production of the Private Equity Women's Investor Network, also known as PE Win. We are the preeminent organization for senior level women investment professionals in private equity. PE Win provides its members with opportunities to network, share ideas, make deep connections with peers, and empower each other to succeed. Our mission is to increase the profile of women in private equity, and our members represent institutions with over $3 trillion in assets under management. To learn more, please visit pewin.org the host of Moments that Made her is Kelly Williams. Many of you know Kelly as the founding chair of PE Win, as well as the founder of the legendary private market solution business known as Customized Fund Investment Group, which she and her team grew to manage $30 billion of assets under management until she let it sail in 2014. She is the CEO of the Williams Legacy foundation and serves on the board of Greenbrier Companies. Thank you for joining us for today's episode.

Speaker A: Hi, everyone, it's Kelly Williams. I'm the host of Moments that Made Her. I am, um, the founding chair of PE Win and the CEO of the Williams Legacy Foundation. And today is a very special day. We're doing something a little different today. We are going to have a roundtable discussion with two of my very dear friends, people I have worked with in this industry for many years, and we're going to have conversation about transitions. Uh, it's something everyone goes through at some point in their life. It's particularly significant when a female executive goes through it. And we thought maybe we'd lead by example and have a conversation about how you identify, plan for, and work through a transition in your career. I am joined by two legends in the private equity industry, Katie Stoeckle and Kate Mitchell. They are two of, uh, the most accomplished but also most fun women I know. So I am thrilled to be here with them today. Um, and I'm going to kick it off by asking each of them to talk a little bit about their career in private equity before they made a transition. Talk about the firm they were with, how long they were with the firm, and what their role was. And I'll turn it over first to Katie Stoeckl.

Speaker C: Okay, great. And by the way, Kelly, legend just means you've gotten older. It doesn't. Because actually, my private equity career started in 1984, and that's a long time ago. And when private equity was just really a, uh, handful of institutions. Were doing it. And at the time I was working for the General Motors pension fund. And I was the first person actually that they assigned to work on private equity on a full time basis. So I was in that role from 1984 to 1998 when I joined Abbott Capital. And working at General Motors was like drinking water, water from a fire hose, because you are the one with the money and you just saw everything. There weren't so many opportunities, uh, for GPS to go to raise money. So General Motors just saw everything and you were just inundated. And there was AT&T and IBM and General Electric and a handful of other big investors. And we all knew each other and shared notes. And over time, that one person in private equity grew to a stock staff of about, I want to say six or eight. But I transitioned to Abbott in 1998 because at the time we had a CEO change and the CEO had downplayed private equity, really did not want to put more money into it. And so I felt like I was going nowhere fast. And Abbott, coincidentally, was beginning to hire because their two founders, one of whom was beginning his own transition plan to retire. That was Stan Pratt. So to make a long story short, I joined them in 1998 as a, uh, partner. And that was going from a firm with 600,000 people. I can't remember what General Motors had, or even the pension fund had maybe 50 people or 100 people to a firm of, to a firm of 50 people. At the time I joined, there was maybe 20 people. I was like number 21. So I joined with a couple other partners and myself and stayed there until I ultimately retired in 2020. And I grew from a partner, and when I retired, I was one of the top three people. And I was a chief operating officer, which just was a way to give me a title. And so, uh, I retired also during COVID which was like a double whammy when we talk about issues you face, because I had all the COVID issues, plus all the retirement issues doubled up on. But it was an interesting ride because I got in at the ground floor of the whole industry and then exited. And I guess it's still going strong from what I hear. That's a quick summary.

Speaker A: Well, you may not remember this, Katie, but you actually, I think you might have been the first woman in private equity outside my own firm that I met when I was at Prudential, my former, yeah, my former partner and I think had lunch with you. And I think you were the first kind of outside person that I met this Would have been in 1990. So while you were still at GM.

Speaker C: Um, I was the first female I knew in private equity who was working full time and was pregnant too. And that was another set of issues. And I had three. Three children. While being at, uh, General Motors and being pregnant and working through the private equity process. Um, it was. I'm sure there were other pregnant women. I'm not sure they were in my industry. So that was a. I don't want to get off on that tangent, but that was a whole nother set of, uh, issues to deal with. But not having those role models ahead

Speaker B: of us, it's hard.

Speaker C: We became the role models, and I never saw myself as a role model, but in some ways I guess we all were.

Speaker A: And yet here you are. All right, Kate, how about you?

Speaker B: Well, and finishing the last conversation, I joke when I talk about this that the three of us, we all joined an industry where we never had to stand in line for the bathroom as there were, and still minority women, which is why Pew Int Mission is so important.

Speaker A: Except when we go to the, The Women's Private Equity Summit.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: And Nicole. Exactly.

Speaker C: Then we've got a problem.

Speaker B: And then we can take over the men's bathroom and stuff. Solve that problem. So it's interesting, Katie, listening to your history and Kelly, we want you to circle. I'm going to circle back and ask you about yours because I think all three of us have gone through this transition and I think that's the value of doing this. But it's interesting because, Katie, you started out at gm. I started out at B of A doing both finance and tech. And I ran a group that put bank of America in a position to be the first bank on the Internet. We had the first URL, the first to have online banking in the U.S. only egg in the UK was ahead of us. So I was living in this sort of tech financ, you know, a foot in both worlds for a long period of time. And I came into venture capital when it was probably going from being a real kind of farm team, very small business, to still one that was very small compared to today, and very collaborative in the mid-90s. And then after that, and I joined an existing fund, one that was sponsored in part by bank of America. And then we spun that off, my co founder, Rory o' Driscoll, and I to be independent in a series of transactions, but basically starting in 2020and gave birth to what is scale Venture partners today. And we've managed that and grew it over time. Added partners, refined our focus, but in essence doing what we said we were going to do in our very first business plan, which is to focus on, uh, enterprise software companies that are just going to, beginning to scale. So very early stage companies that are just taking their prototype and giving it to customers for the first time. They're now on Fund 8 in which I am an LP. So it's fun to have Transition, to be on the other side of the table. And my role was founder and managing partner Katie, much like you, and Kelly, much like you. And we'll get to our rationale about what led us to think about transitions, but I was proud. One of my biggest portfolio companies was Scale Venture Partners and making sure that our team was doing well and thriving and, and that our investors, who we think of as partners, not limited, were also feeling cared for and communicated with. So it was a great experience. And Kelly, we need to know yours. We need to know your background.

Speaker A: I feel like I've had a couple transitions, but two major ones. The first, which our, uh, listeners have heard me talk about before, was this transition from my career as a lawyer, which is what I had always thought I would be my whole life. And it really came about because I was offered a job by a former client. I was at Prudential Insurance Company at the time. I had moved from the law firm I was working in, been approved for a number of years, and one of my former colleagues offered me a job to move to do project finance. That's what the type of lawyer I was. And I said, sure, okay, I'll do it. And I went to Peru and said, I'm. Look, I'm going to leave. I've got this great offer. I know you can't match it. And they're like, no, hold on, don't leave. We'll bring you to the business side and we'll match the economics. And I was like, okay, hey, all right. And yeah, but that was a big decision because I had spent my whole life training to be a lawyer. That's what I thought I was going to be and that it was scary. And I think people have heard me tell this story before. But my former colleague, who was a lawyer who was trying to recruit me away, when I made that argument to him, he said, kelly, aren't you tired of keeping, let's say, idiots? He didn't say idiots. Aren't you tired of keeping idiots out of trouble? I was like, yeah, I really am. That's what a lawyer does. You keep people out of trouble. And so I made that move to the business side at Peru and then was offered by DLJ to move our business in 1990 from Prudential to DLJ. And that was really a defining moment for us. And what's unique in my career, and I often have a little bit of trouble when I'm asked to mentor people and coach people because I started at the top. I was a founder of my firm.

Speaker B: Likewise.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that's a. Yeah. So that's a different career path than most people have when they go through most women. Most women have when they go through private equity. Um, um. And so I didn't stop start at the tippy top. I, I did when I founded the firm and then when we moved it to dlj, I got demoted and my partner got promoted. But eventually that got, that got corrected. Um, um, much like Katie, we were a, ah, private equity investment firm. We were really one of the first solutions groups back before that term came around. The name of the firm was the Customized Fund Investment Group. We did exclusively, um, separate accounts and custom portfolios and eventually we added real estate and infrastructure. So we were really an alternative solution provider. And I was co head of the business. I started more kind of in a chief operating officer role much like Katie was describing because of my legal background. But I ended up really taking, taking the reins as, as co head and eventually my partner left and I was the sole head. I was global head of the business for 10 years after he left.

Speaker C: That's fantastic. So great. Let me just pick. Before I forget, I want to pick up on one thing. You said that you started at the top. When I left General Motors and joined Abbott, I actually took a significant pay cut, uh, which is something that people don't think, oh, they can't do this. But something to think about if the long term opportunity is there, which I saw, uh, especially because the founders were retiring and I knew their economics would begin to flow my way. It was worth it. It took about three years to actually make more than I was making at uh, General motors. But over 20 years I'd done, I did far better. But when I left gm I had a car, I had a pension plan, I had, you know, an e, uh, cushy job. But it wasn't, you know, crazy hours. So it was hard to walk away. But I would encourage people to think a little bit outside the box. Even starting your own firm, you know, is a bit, can be a bit challenging and can take some financial risks. Um, and I think I was about 43 at the time and I had my Kids behind me. So that was the time to do it. So maybe we can switch gears a little bit and talk a bit about what we loved and what we didn't like about our careers and the business we were in. I'll just start by saying what I love about private equity and Abbott as well was being part of a bigger universe. Every day I'd go to work and either meet interesting people or you're dealing with portfolio companies that you never would have thought about before or you're traveling to Europe or to Boston and, or uh, California sometimes for day trips because you had to get back. But I like going out of the home and being part of something bigger. And that's both what I loved about it, but probably also created challenges because it was more time consuming, more wear and tear on the body and mentally and always having to be on. And I was commuting to New York from Princeton, New Jersey so that had an hour and a half each way. So it was a life, uh, in the fast lane for pros and cons. Maybe I'll ask each of you, what did you love and what were your challenges?

Speaker B: I'd say for me, what I loved. One of the great things about venture is because we invest in change. Our opportunity comes when there's change. If things are status quo, that's not where our sector succeeds very well. We're not good at refining things, we're better at building things. As a business, it's a high risk, high reward business, there's a lot of failure. But the opportunity to meet so many entrepreneurs that are constantly in a position where they're teaching you about these new areas is just so interesting. You feel it's just, there's nothing like it. It's like continuing to be back in school and having those aha, um, moments. Oh, that's really interesting. Sure enough I'd meet an entrepreneur and then, you know, a month or two later I'd see something and say this is a trend that's happening. So it was just so invigorating from that standpoint. And then Katie, our business, we don't have control positions, we are in syndicates and I think it's become a little bit less this way in venture now. But it was incredibly collaborative and very much a team. You were investing alongside people who you were going to know for a long time and your comb set of skills would uh, collectively the goal was to provide better governance and guidance to the, to a founder, to leadership team and likewise insight being part of a team. It was funny. Katie you were referring to Covid. There were. I used to come in during COVID one day a week when my cleaning lady came here and there were a few others of us would come in the office, but sometimes I'd be there by myself. And yet I could feel the sense of team just by looking at the offices. And I loved that feeling. Even though I was the only one there, it represented team to me. So I loved the team that we built. The way we practice Venture was not as an independent sport, and there are firms that do that and succeed. We think it Scales Venture as a team sport and I really, I love that. So for me it was the people and the learning. The things that got long in the tooth were as the founding partners and all three of us had semblance of that role. Um, you know, because Scale was one of my biggest portfolio companies, I ended up working longer hours than I probably would love. Sometimes I felt like my day started at 5 or 6 and want to extend or there'd be a weekend there. So I think that idea and a lot of focus on things that had, ah, an element of sameness to them. At some point I began to think, boy, this will be my 23rd annual meeting that I'll help organize. I mean, it was really the team that presented and they always did a great job. But, well, I had a lot more on my 23rd and 24th. So I think that idea of just that flattening learning curve, a bit more focused on the operations side and that taking away from the ability to spend time with the things I love, which were people and entrepreneurs. So those were the parts that. And then I say, by the way, the impact on that, on the other aspects of my life that I wanted to get better about. We'll talk more about our aspirations post each of our firms. But that was becoming more of a presence for me. So Kelly, you know, you, by the way, were one of my, um, leads in making this transition. So I'd love to know what did you enjoy because you were a great leader at what became Grosvenor.

Speaker A: Um, you know, what I really enjoyed the most was working with clients. I loved my clients and because our business was a solutions focused business. And I feel like my superpower is problem solving. That's what I love to do. I think that's why I became a lawyer. You know, I majored in math in college. I just love problem solving. And so I've loved working with the clients and that I found very rewarding because I think, uh, one of the things our industry tends to forget is that it's not our money, it's not the asset manager's money. It doesn't. It's not ours. And in many cases, we're managing money for pension plans and endowments and foundations. Um, and guess what? It's not their money either. It belongs to a teacher. It belongs to my mom. It belongs to people who have trusted their money to these institutions. And so the idea that you can come up with a solution that achieves what the client's trying to get to and gets a good outcome is very rewarding. The other thing I would say I really enjoyed was watching people in my team progress. And one of the things that warms my heart the most is even today, getting emails and calls and texts from young people who are really young on my team to tell me about their life, to tell me they got married or they have kids or they've started a fund. And I love that they think of me that way, that I'm someone they want to share their successes with, because I really felt invested in who was part of the team. Um, the thing I liked least about the career in private equity is, I guess I would bracket it by saying the competition. But I don't mind competition. Competition is very healthy. And I always felt like if you're competing based on the merits, it's actually fun and invigorating. And I regularly would call up my peers when they'd win an assignment and congratulate them because I felt like it was an honest decision. It's when the decisions got dishonest. And there was a period in private equity it affected more my business and Katie's business, it was more with fund of funds and advisors. That was very, a very dark time. And there were people doing some really unethical things and they got caught eventually and got convicted in some cases. And lots of people lost their jobs. But it was a really dark time. And in my mind there's. There's just no need for that. There's absolutely no need for that. There's more than enough money to go around for everybody to manage if you're doing it on your merits and you've got the numbers to justify a client choosing you. But that was a really dark and nefarious time, and I did not enjoy that at all.

Speaker B: You know, it's really interesting because as our, our whole, uh, broadly defined asset class has matured since we began, it was more of a merchant boutique sort of industry, from institutional investors to fund A funds, to GPS where I sit. But it has Become more professionalized. There are aspects of that I think are good. And while there's a lot of capital in the world to deploy, I sense the same thing even in the venture end of the spectrum in that things are just a bit less collaborative. There's a bit more of a zero sum approach to a lot of things. And I think that's been to the detriment because I think we were fortunate. And by the way, I think, you know, advice to people beginning their careers today or in mid career, continue to focus on that because that's really where I think our industry can be really effective in what we do. I don't think we win by being zero sum, but there can be a slippage in that way. And so it's interesting that is probably a common theme in terms of instigating kind of our changes. So I wanted to ask you guys because I really gave this a ton of thought ahead of time. I don't know about you, uh, because I watched people retire and not. And how you prepared mentally for the transition, what you hope to get out of it, what you were worried about. I'm, um, happy to share my own, but I'll start Katie with you.

Speaker C: Okay, great. I did not do a good job of preparing mentally. My head was in the sand. I had started from college age 21, till later 60s working full time or going to school full time. So I was just like in denial. So I should back up and say about five years before I retired, I went to one of those programs that was sponsored by some law firm, I think about how to join a board or how to do something like that later on. And I walked into the room and There were like 200 women there, each with a three page resume and all very accomplished. And I was like, whoa, I'm not sure I want to like. And they were all prepared to like interview heavily for these jobs that were not actually paying that much board seats compared to what I was making. And I went back and said to myself, geez, I think I'll just stay the next last five years at Abbott, which has pros and cons by the way. We should touch on that, which is what I did and just continued my career into Abbott. So by the time I was retiring and it was Covid, um, I was just kind of burnt out. I didn't prepare much really in the way of anything. But the one thing I did know, and I had realized as a result of working that last year from home on um, video because of COVID that because of all my Life, I had been commuting to New York. Even when I was working for General Motors, I was commuting to New York. I had very little social structure at home. And I really spent like the first two or three years of my life building a personal life which was not connected to work. And that was. It took some time, but I joined a social club in Princeton that consists of 200 or so professional women who are mostly retired. They may have been nursers or they may have been teachers. They may have been executives at Morgan Stanley, professors at, ah, Princeton or Rutgers. And I've made quite a few new friends, which at this age is a challenge. But now I have a social life at home that's not a function of, um, my work life. And that was a big challenge. And I also started going to the gym a lot, and that was getting my health. And, um, I still go four or five times a week. And that added some structure to my life too, because I still needed to get out of the house and do things. And then I started got involved with a few local charities. But I would say the first two are the major things I started implementing. I had to create my own structure to deal with the fact I no longer had structure in my life. And a personal. I had to develop a personal life

Speaker A: and a more physical life too.

Speaker C: And actually I lost £20 in the process. So that was.

Speaker B: And having seen you in the gym, I know you are, you succeeded in that. Uh, and having socialized with you, I know you succeeded at that.

Speaker C: So I can talk more about that. But that was the big kind of. I didn't really do much to prepare, but I knew I was kind of burnt out and I knew I just had to like, make any plans for a while and see what would come. Because sometimes when we've been programmed our whole life or structured our whole life, you don't even think of new things. I actually took a woodworking class and I made a homemade cutting board, which was pretty cool. And, um, some other things like that. I took some adult courses and explored. And then of course we started traveling a lot too. So that's a big time sink and joy too. Enjoy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: How did you think about this ahead of time? Was it something you contemplated? Was it something that there was another catalyst for it? And, and as you were going through it, what excited you and what worries you?

Speaker A: So in my case, I hadn't really contemplated it. Uh, but the, the really impetus for it was that Credit Suisse did very well through the global financial crisis. It was the Only bank, major bank that didn't take any bailout money. But the Swiss regulators determined that they wanted CS to have more capital on their balance sheet. And so they had to look around for assets that they had that they could sell. And really the private equity business, what was left of it, which was really us strategic partners, emergent banking, we were kind of orphan assets after, uh, the GFC banks were limited in how much risk assets they could have on their balance sheet. So um, we'd been trying for years to get out of Credit Suisse and get them to let us leave and sell us. And finally the answer was yes. So there was a built in transition. We knew we were going to, we were going to do this. Now the problem for us was that cs, despite our, you know, entreaties, they announced it before we had it baked, right? So we had, we were like at risk for over a year because they said we're getting out of this business, we're selling it. So of course every one of our competitors were going after our clients, going after our team. It was just like three dimensional chess all the time trying to hold it all together. And that was really hard. It was really hard to keep everything together. Um, but ultimately my team and I, we ran the process like any deal. You know, thank God we were deal doers, right, because we had to finally, as you said, our biggest portfolio company, we had to lead the sale of it and the deal fell apart, it came back together, somebody else came in. It was every permutation that usually happens. And we ultimately decided to, to sell the business to Grosvenor because they didn't really have an overlapping business. They were a hedge fund of funds, we were private equity. We thought it would be very complimentary. And in my mind the whole time I just kept thinking I just have to land this plane. And I really wasn't thinking much after the plane landed. I just was like, I have a plane with 150 people on it and I need to land it and land it safely. And so that's what I did. We got the plane landed, we had to negotiate with Carter Suisse, we had to negotiate with Grosvenor. We were not equity owners, but we negotiated equity for our team. Um, and so it was probably the most complicated, stressful thing I've ever done in my life. But it brought our team together. We worked really well and worked hard together to protect and save each other. But the reality is that it's very hard after you sell a company as the management team to stay on right you sold your business to someone else. Someone else owns you now, and you can't have two CEOs. And so that became pretty clear, that dynamic, you know, there's just a very different mindset. But that's okay because luckily we had built all of that in. We'll talk to that later how we navigate some of the structural issues in a transition. But I would say, ideally, I would have stayed on for a longer time, and there was a not, uh, you know, we could have bought the business. You know, that would have been very difficult as well. The team could have done it. In retrospect, maybe that's what we should have done. But the thing that was best for the clients and best for the team was to land on a stable platform that could help continue the business. The thing I would say I was most fearful about, honestly, in making my decision to transition out, was how many women I knew were relying on me and kind of looking. To me, I mean, that was something that really. That would wake me up at night and say, okay, how are people gonna feel if I'm not like a big allocator anymore and I'm not watching out for people in the industry and making sure people are getting heard and getting a chance, and we'll talk about this. But I found other ways to do that and found other allies to do that. But it was something I didn't prepare for mentally, because I was really just trying to get that plane landed.

Speaker C: Yeah. Wow.

Speaker A: But how about you, Kate? How about you, Kate?

Speaker B: These are good, because these are three very different circumstances. In my case, the way venture worked when I joined it, you know, a junior partner, you'd come in, and I came in as a junior partner. You kind of waited to something happened to your boss, and you just stuck in the same firm. And eventually they'd move on and you'd move up. That really changed and I think for the better over the last couple of decades. You know, it really started happening that particularly at the principal, senior associate, principal, you know, kind of partner, track level, a lot more fluidity in the organization. And I watched. And, you know, when we founded Scale, we wanted it to be something that outlasted Rory and myself. And I started watching firms not only struggle, but a few fail because the senior partners, we don't have retirement ages. We own the companies, so nobody's technically has governance. We have a broad, diverse range of limited partners. Theoretically, your LPAC could speak to you. And I think there's. I've had good conversations with elpacs about how they can nudge, maybe, but there really was nobody directing us. We were the owners of small companies that could make our own decisions. But watching some of our peers either fail as firms or lose a lot of their best people and have a real diminishment in their reputation, or that they almost got pushed out by the junior team and were really desperately unhappy. They kind of never recovered from the humiliation of that. They were so aligned with their firm. And I began looking up and down the valley. And at this point, by the way, I was chair of the National Venture Capital association for a period of time. I was really able to see across the industry kind of what was happening with leadership. And I thought, boy, I don't want that to happen to me. And I combined that with my thoughts about how I was spending time, wanting to spend more time with entrepreneurs, loving teams, loving the team I have, and having belief in the people that I brought on, that they could take my position, that they could become the leaders of the firm. And I decided, having seen those that waited too long to make that decision where it either hurt the firm or hurt themselves, that you either got pushed or jumped. And I decided I want to be the one to be in control of my decision and make it myself before it's too late. So I look back thinking it was a little early maybe, but, you know, I'd much rather have it be a little early than too late. And I'd say then my hope was I really did have a view of what I wanted to steepen my learning curve. I actually wanted to spend more time with mentees, which I have been able to, including at scale and outside, and to have more joy in my life, to spend more time with family and friends, to develop that social network. I mean, Katie knows, uh, you know, there are different events that all three of us get invited to. And for many years I would say, oh, I can't get away. I've got to take a trip. I've got a board meeting. I've got. And finally I can say yes to those things. So I looked for that and I hoped for it and for the, uh, we'll talk more about post transition life. But I was happy about that. My fear. I remember sitting in. I remember exactly where I was sitting around the partner table when I announced my plan. And I got the words out. And I thought to myself, I can't take them back. I have put the stake in the ground and I've spent my whole career trying to get to this point. And I just gave it away. Um, thoughtfully, I'D spent time talking to my husband. I had spent. We'll talk about research that I'd done with peers and kind of think about it. And yet I still thought, oh my God. And Kelly, a little bit to what you were referring to. Who am I? This was what I was so proud of. I was built to be ambitious. I was built to achieve, and I loved it. And to think, oh, my God, who am I? What am I now? And that fear of, gosh, you know, and I don't see myself doing. I'm not a golfer, I won't do. I'm not. I fall asleep in yoga. So what am I going to do with my time? And will I still be relevant? Because I actually still found the industry so interesting. We'll talk later about how we address those. I will say in sum, to anybody who only listens to this part of the podcast, you will find a very healthy and robust post transition life and you'll continue to learn and grow. So my fears were not realized, but that moment was pretty, pretty scary.

Speaker C: Yeah, it is scary. Uh, maybe this is a good time to switch to a few things about how do you make that announcement or how do you even communicate it? In my case, Abbott, Uh, because there were two founders prior to me, they had set the stage or the expectation, so I didn't quite have the same situation as you two had. But when you're deciding to retire and your economics generally are going to flow back to the firm, you're not going to take them with you for the most part. You may have a little tail, or you may have some vested carrier, this or that, but you have to be mentally prepared. You're walking away from what could be, uh, quite a lucrative situation. And that alone is a challenge. And that's why people stick onto the bitter end. And this is why when I was at Abbott, when we saw a lot of funds that would come in and there'd be someone there who was 70 and still taking 20% of the carry, and it was always something we focused on with outside firms, so we had to apply it to ourselves as well, that there wasn't going to be a permanent tail to anyone, um, except maybe the founders. And there wasn't going to be a law, and people aren't going to be able to stay until they're 75 or 80 because it was something we voted against when we would not invest with firms. So we had to, like, eat our own cooking on that. And I was part of that as well. It is a, uh, challenge. One of the Things I was really shocked with and I didn't prepare for. And I'll just put it out there was the cash flow situation because my expenses didn't go down, my lifestyle really didn't change that much. And I still had drawdowns from Abbott that were substantial, but I had no income. The only income I had was investment income. And guess what? The market was down 20% during COVID if not more. It was down maybe 40% at one point. So the one thing I would recommend to anyone who's thinking about retirement two or three years before you retire, start accumulating a cash cushion. I made it through, but there were some sleepless nights because I had drawdown drawdowns up the wazoo that I was not released from. And um, luckily my mortgage was paid off, but I still had a lot of just expenses and kids still on the payroll. And it would be nice to have three years worth of cash, not a half year's worth of cash because like any good investor, I was fully invested. That's one thing I'll just throw out there.

Speaker B: How did you lay the ground groundwork for. You were still working full time and not only were you working full time, you were working double time because you were managing the firm and keeping it going and you were doing this mega deal. Um, how did you, while you were still working, lay the groundwork and how did you think that through, including all the things Katie was referring to?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: In terms of laying the groundwork, the good news is I guess that the groundwork for transition was built into the documentation.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So in selling the company and again, deal doers, like when you sell a company to another company, you maybe have already documented how management might m transition over time. And so luckily that was all built in and it was very, I would say there. I thought it was very fair. It worked for me. It had a long tail, so I didn't have the same kind of cash flow issues. And it. So I didn't have to think a lot about that. That was already, uh, laid out the groundwork. The bigger groundwork piece was how did I prepare myself for what the next phase was going to be. And as you both know, Kate in particular knows I also have another full time job which was running PE Win. And that was Kate and I were co CEOs of PE Win. This was before we had the amazing Emily and the amazing Moby and running things full time. And I immediately had another job and so that keep me very busy. But the other thing I had done, and Kate mentioned this is I had started to say yes to a few things that I really wanted to do because I had said no for 25 years. I never had any room for anything else other than to run this business. And, you know, Andrew and I lived in New York City for 30 years and, like, never went to a play, rarely went out to dinner. There just wasn't room for a personal life. And I started to say yes. The first thing I said yes to was joining the board of the Nantucket Historical association, because, many of you know, I summer there. And it was a good thing I did that because I ended up sitting next to a woman at the board meeting who was on the board of a public company. And we got to know each other. We sort of were different than some of the other folks on the board. And she said, gee, have you ever thought about going on a public company board? And I said, in fact, yeah, that's something I'd like to do. She said, oh, we're recruiting board members right now, and I'd love for you to consider coming on this board. And so I tell people all the time, you think you don't have time to do nonprofit stuff, but if you're careful about the nonprofits you choose, and if you. The people who are on those nonprofits are people who have big lives and big jobs, it could lead you to something like that public company board you'd like to sit on. And that's been my experience. And that really led me to that next phase of getting involved in nonprofits that I really feel passionate about, and also getting involved in for profit boards, which, again, has become an important part of what I do. But I think to the point of, you know, while you're still fully engaged, you're still trying to run this business, and in some cases two or three businesses say yes to at least one thing outside of your work that speaks to who you are or who you'd like to become, and you'd be surprised at what that might lead you to.

Speaker B: It's interesting, Kelly. I refer to that as the Tarzan strategy, which actually I learned from an entrepreneur who had sold his company, was sitting on as independent board member on some of my startups. He called it the, uh, Gary Eichhorn called it the Tarzan strategy. Get a hold of your next vine before you let go of the old one. And because mine was a contemplated transition on my own, I did exactly, Kelly, what you did and got involved with the National Venture Capital association, got heavily involved with Puin, uh, near and dear to all of our hearts, including our listeners and got very involved in something as an example like the Silicon Valley Community foundation. And I joined to both help what is build what is now an exceptional team and spent a lot of time helping the team think through and how to finance an absolute rebuild. It's the largest community foundation in the country. Their back office it and those kinds of things that led me to sit on their investment committee with a lot of our P1 members that a number of us know that I helped pull onto that investment committee. But I would not have ended up Kelly, to your point started it wouldn't have been a logical quick step to join as a GP and investment committee but through that experience at the community foundation and that use of the Tarzan strategy, a way to find my way to both public boards, nonprofits and then also in this case an investment committee. But I'll back up because my experience was a bit again self and for those listeners that might be thinking through okay, I'm engineering this myself, um, how do I think about it? And there were no provisions in the firm for what would happen when you transition. And so I did a lot of homework on a our peers. I want to give a shout out to Tom Crotty at Battery who's had a really thoughtful series of transitions from a leadership point of view over time. And he had somebody I'd worked with at the National Venture Capital association board and I really admired him and he shared both economic non economic issues, things he did well, things he would do differently. Tom, I repeated some of the mistakes you made but I knew I was doing it meaning got too busy after I transitioned. But it really helped me think it through to really do my homework. And then I also really thought about my goals were which kind of were going to play into what this is. Before I spoke to anybody other than somebody like Tom confidentially, what was I trying to get out of this? What was I looking for? And I wanted to contribute my expertise while it was still fresh. So I didn't want to I wanted to not wait too long. I wanted to continue to learn and grow and I wanted more flexibility. And then I also thought about what did I want for the firm. I wanted it to sustain, uh, past me. And I'll tell you the length that when I think about and spend time with peers that are thinking this through, the most important thing Kelly, getting back to your point about people development is succession. Make sure you build a bench, make sure you begin to share ownership, responsibility. And that's both economic. That's the leadership of conversations with limited Partners and participation at annual meetings and all those good things you need to do that early and over time. And so that leads Katie to your question is then how do I think about once I decided, you know, what was right for me, what was the logical thing and that really led to the plan which wasn't to make it a stair step function but to make it a ramp. And this is actually pretty common in the GP world. So my early communications were I'm going to leave at some point, not the next fund, but the fund after that and then within that made both the economics and the leadership roles much more of a continuous ramp and change as opposed to a stair step function where I led one day and then I was gone. And there was a new team of really lovely gps, but brand new names are uh, newer in the leadership role for all of our constituents and particularly our investors to get to know. So we really invested time and it really took probably a better part of five years to have that conversation over time. And what initially was very vague communication that I'll be leaving over the next two funds became very specific about these folks have joined the management company. My ownership is still there, but diminish in the management company and guess but next fund, these are your managers. And so making it more and more specific over time I think became really important. But circling back to Kelly's point, knowing where I was going and investing in my future I think not only made it easier for me and to have that invested and to have a leg into my future and again PE win being a big part of that and a real source of both, uh, work Kelly, as you point out, but also real enjoyment I was getting all those things we, all three of us talked about, the collaboration, the team, the, the learning, the discovering the building, the problem solving that all three of us got really powered by. But I also think it helped the firm because I remember sitting across from Rory as a co founder and I think he was still stunned that I had brought this up and I said, look how happy I am you're not seeing me. This is something I'm thrilled about and I think that made it easier for the team. I think it made easier for the team to talk about it. It wasn't a secret and something terrible had happened. I uh, it was something I was excited about and I think I encourage people to think about getting, thinking about it early. I think you get the preparation people like Katie is talking about financially and otherwise. But I think it makes it easier for everybody, including yourself, but also your firm to go through it in that way. So that's how I, it's true.

Speaker C: But it is hard if you, once you start talking about it, uh, not to get marginalized, totally lame duck and left out, left out of meetings or economics, but even not, um, putting economics aside just to be treated still as a full functioning partner. So that's why a lot of people don't even want to talk about it.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Until it's right.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: In their face. Very true.

Speaker B: You know, and I'll tell you, what we did at Scale is the first conversations, of course, I had with my husband, but secondly, just the managers who. And we had. I'm fortunate in that the four of us the time, Andy, Stacey, Rory, myself, trusted each other, appreciate each other, and we kept it at the management company for a long time. The next group we talked to actually before we spoke to the whole firm was our elpac because we again, our partners, not our limiteds. And we wanted their support and understanding. I think that combination in my, uh, case became good guardrails to that shift. But I think you're absolutely right, it is going to shift. But to a certain extent I felt in my case I needed to be ready for that. Uh, oh, we'll talk about some of the practical aspects of shifting. One of the things I loved the most and I still miss the most about Scale is our off site because that's where we really think about market trends and we go deep. It's a great team building opportunity and it's a big, a really interesting thought exercise. And that's something I knew I was going to be cutting myself out of. If I was doing the right thing, I needed to be less present. That was really hard. I think you have to steal yourself. Katie, you're absolutely, you're so right in bringing that up. It's hard. It's going to be, it's going to feel. They're going to aspects you can't avoid. You're going to miss some things.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: All right, we're going to take a quick break and there's so much more to talk about. And I will be back quickly with my guests and dear friends, Katie Stoegel and Kate Mitchell.

Speaker B: We would like to take a brief

Speaker A: break to thank Pete Ewan's founding partner,

Speaker B: kpmg, as well as our Gold partners, Asia Alternatives, Dukas Lynden Public Relations, Kane Anderson, Kirkland and Ellis Proskauer, Silver Lake,

Speaker A: Thoma Bravo and tpg.

Speaker B: If you are interested in sponsorship opportunities, please contact us@infoewin.org now back to Our episode.

Speaker A: This is Kelly Williams. We are back with our transitions episode of Moments that made her. I am joined by my dear friends Katie Stokel and Kate Mitchell. And there's just so much to talk about here. But we are going to get really down to the nitty gritty and talk about the practical things that are part of these complex transitions. They are really detailed things, uh, you need to address. And it's the stuff people don't tell you. You don't hear about these at the beginning of your career. But it's good to know particularly if you're joining a firm or you're starting a firm. It's a good idea to think about this stuff because all good things come to an end. And Katie, maybe I know you put together a list of things so I'm going to start with you.

Speaker C: I'll just throw it all out there. I talked already about making sure your financial cash position is solid. Health care, um, I was Medicare eligible when I retired but people may be retiring at age 62. What are you going to do to bridge that? There was not good solutions. Even on the Obama self bought plans. You don't have the same Cadillac plans that you might have at your current firm. So you got to think through especially if your spouse is, is depending on you for the healthcare or your kids. I don't have a good answer there. I look forward to other people's thoughts. Uh, technology tech help. Three months ago my computer died completely. I spent a good solid week researching, having to buy a new computer, getting it, finding out how I could salvage some um, files from my old computer which was totally burnt out. I eventually had to hire some local tech support people. But you don't have a tech department anymore to get you a new phone or a new computer or fix your laptop. It's all on you. Um, keeping an email address or a forwarding email address of some sort to have your firm set that up so that emails can get forwarded to you to the extent you want or whether you're going to still be on the website. That's a whole negotiating point. I took my phone number which was a corporate phone. I took the phone number with me. That's really important. I've had that same cell phone number for 10 years now. I didn't want to have to start with a new phone number but that's not always easy to do. Memberships. It's important to keep your PE Win membership alive. Um, what other corporate memberships you may have. Um, just think through what other memberships you Want to keep. I'm a CFA. I kept that alive. PE win, various other Instagram or LinkedIn for sure. You know, I didn't do a good job of that. But you need to keep that updated. Well, I'll stop there and see. You'll probably have some additions to that quick laundry list.

Speaker A: I think that's a really good list, Katie. I think that the other thing to think about is licenses for some of us who are asset managers. Your FINRA licenses. Right. Um, in some cases you can park them somewhere if you have uh, if maybe you're going to be allowed to have an affiliation somewhere else. But in many cases you have non competes that are linked to your ongoing m, your ongoing economics and so you're not able to do that. I think one of the most important things is to decide what you want to do next. Are you going to continue to do something in your fields? Is your transition one that's just a transition away from your firm, but not a transition away from the industry and you see a next chapter. And I think that's a hard one because that's where you can get into the friction with your former firm about track record, about, about relationships. And so those non compete, non solicit issues do come up. And that is another thing that I think in each of our cases we ended up probably all having opportunities to do that, but electing not to. But you do have to think about that because the dynamic changes dramatically if you want to continue or need to continue to work. And how are you going to navigate that? Right.

Speaker C: And I had a uh, non compete as well with Abbott, but I was able to pick up one opportunity that is not competitive but it does take some navigation. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And you want to stay active in the industry. So it's interesting, right.

Speaker A: I think Katie, you. All those practical things are really important. I got myself an assistant Moby who's now uh, the amazing Moby who is the chief operating officer of pe Win. And but that to me that was one of the most important things was having someone who could support you and who would continue to support you. Luckily I had a five year trajectory so I had time and I still, yeah, I had time to work with my former assistant Danielle, who's near and dear to my heart. She's amazing to me that was a really important thing.

Speaker C: The one thing I did also that final year when I was retiring, I called each of the GPS I was closest to to and had a personal one on one conversation with them. And of course their first thing they said to me was oh, congratulations, blah blah, blah. And then the second question was now who should I call at Avid? So they wanted to definitely know that the relationship was getting transferred to someone who was going to be there full time for them. And I had that answer. It would vary depending upon the gp, but I think it's important to uh, reach out to people, your GPS or your clients. And I did the same thing with clients too that I was especially close to and had a one on one conversation with them and then to people I didn't know as well, but I had an industry people like uh, other GPS or pension funds, people I knew I'd meet at annual meetings. I sent emails explaining just a paragraph or two. The funny thing is many times I never heard back. So I don't know if that was just, oh, uh, well, she's just telling me, but be prepared. Some people may not say anything. I guess be prepared. Not everyone's going to be your cheerleader and that's okay too.

Speaker B: Yeah. So when I thought about the sort of practical approach and again this kind of drove out of some of the peer homework I'd done and the way that we spoke about it or redeveloped this over time with counsel at scale because again we're kind of developing a retirement program if you will, and it's not set in stone, but at least it's a precedent. Certainly what would work for me. We kind of grouped it into economic and non economic issues and at the GP level the economic issues there actually is pretty much a precedent. There's certainly the firms where the founding partner tries to monetize it and I think very difficult in that you're also probably taking away a bit from the next generation. Like you Kelly, there's a bit of zero sum aspect to that. If they have to raise money to finance to buy me out and it'll take them a while to recoup that. So really what we did is it's a model that follows the excess fee model, meaning my portion as a manager of carry and the old funds flowed through as excess fees. Typically when we're active and when I transitioned those net flows would still follow through. But that means I also did not have a portion of fees from the newer funds. So I still got my portion net of expenses, of course of my portion of fees in the old funds and the new managers got this increasing slope of new fees going forward. So it worked out nicely. I wasn't walking away from the history of the funds, but it diminishes relatively quickly and the new Team appropriately got a significant increase over time, so that part of it worked out fine. Modest amount of acceleration of vesting and clarity around that. But, uh, you're right, Katie. My big issue was health care and I had like you, Kelly, time and I actually traded off some economics for a longer tail that got me to qualify at 65 for Medicare. So technically it was my 65th birthday. That was the capstone. Um, and of course that was a whole new learning experience from the firm. We hadn't had anybody, uh, hit that age. So, um, but that was really important because again for everybody. I mean you can buy healthcare, we all know, independently, but I really was close enough that I wanted to get to qualify for Medicare, so we pushed that. Then the non monetary, it's interesting we ended up spending as much time on that. And again, I think that was helpful for me. Some of it being hard, Katie, as you mentioned, but I think also helpful for the firm. That included everything from how you're going to transition relationships. I was probably the closest or among the closest with all of our limited partners managing every one of those relationships very carefully and thoughtfully, many of whom have stayed friends, which is great, but yet understand the transition of my role now as an investor alongside them in the firm as opposed to being on the GP side. We talked about the website. I'm partner emeritus, um, on the side of when that would transition. We broke it into two phases of phase one where I was still active and transitioning. And Katie, you mentioned it, but stepping away from new investing, that was hard because that's part, that's most fun. It's the part I missed. But it was part of getting to the other side and appropriate for the firm and use of support staff, use of IT and all that continued through that phase one which got me to retirement. And then it was hitting that date just about a year ago that um, open all of a sudden I had to, you know, I was officially transitioned. I needed to did my whole sign up. I know I by the way, use the healthcare advisors for the firm to help give me advice around my transition to Medicare. And you've got that resource. Use it. Calling back a year later is tougher. Use it then spent, you know, then had to find it again, used our IT team to help find. I actually decided I'm spending a fair amount from IT support. But when you think about our name is out there, like Kelly said, on public boards, given our careers, these folks actually handle small offices, including small asset managers, hedge funds, et cetera. And so they really help set up our family office and monitor in particular cybersecurity, which today is just changing so rapidly. And I've got a virtual assistant in my case a firm called VA Loft. There are many out there and uh, that's working. I have to say of all the things I found. It was expensive to replace it but I'm comfortable. I think the hardest has been the assistant just because I'm thinking Danielle Kelly, who we all know and loved and Moby who we all know and love. Having somebody who's full time who's sitting beside you 7:24 almost because unfortunately they probably mirrored our work style. It's just so different when you don't have. With fabulous support that I do have. It's not the same as a full time person. And boy do I think statues should be built for EAs. They're such partners in our everyday lives. I felt that way when I was building my career. My EAs were my partners in the business. And boy, not having somebody full time to help with everything from scheduling to responding travel travel responding to my nonprofit and public company CEOs that want to schedule something but I'm off doing something else and all that stuff. It just, it's just that's. That was an amazing, that was a really amazing shift. It took a fair amount of time. I'm um, not my own greatest EA as uh, those that have to interact with me know. But yeah, it's been a. But it's good to do the homework around and I think part of our interest in making sure we share this with everybody is there's no one right way. But these are the kind of things it is and you'll get to the other side and be happy. I'm thrilled. But you'll have to cobble together a new reality and a new support team. Whether it's yourself using other resources. It's not insignificant, that's for sure.

Speaker C: Yeah. Said. Well done.

Speaker A: So on that point, let's have our last topic for today and we probably will revisit this and come back and do this another time. But so what's exciting you right now? Like, like are there things you're involved in building or topics you're trying to influence or things you're trying to learn now that's uh, really exciting. You and Kate, maybe let me start with you.

Speaker B: Well, building and some of this by the way, it hasn't because you and I both did this over a longer period of time. One of the things I'm most excited about having now really built to the stage that's sustainable but also continues to grow and learn is pumice. So uh, of the things I'm involved with that get me excited and new leadership under Emily Mandel with Moby, you know, uh, right by her side has just been incredible to see. So I think building that, building something called venture forward that I've been very involved in from way back when I returned to the National Venture Capital association board to work on kind of increasing the ratio of women and uh, minorities in venture to reflect the demographics of the country and the people we serve and our investors getting that up and running. I just stepped away as board chair for that having been in essence the founder but again a great leader there in Merriam Hawk. And we have an excellent board going forward and have raised like Pe Win a modest endowment there that's going to have it go forward. So even at the stage of handing leadership off. But I think it's sort of like Hotel California. You can check in, you never check out. I'm always there to help both of those organizations because I believe in them so much and Pu Win just gives me endless joy. Um, my influence I'd say really comes through different things. I love board governance, kind of geeky thing but you know I've been on 30 plus boards now. I mean that was my job for a while as a venture capitalist and now nonprofits and for profits. But I really enjoy and it is influence management. You don't direct anything. But I have two company boards I sit on now with new CEOs who I'm incredibly enthusiastic about fortive and ralliant. Um, and that opportunity to kind of bring my expertise around high growth tech companies and board governance to both of those having that point of view from a venture perspective to the investment committees. I mentioned that I'm part of both the Silicon Valley Community foundation and San Francisco Museum of Modern Art. Being able to speak as a GP and also frankly as a gp it helps me in my mentoring which is really the next thing I do from an influence point of view. But understanding what it's like uh, being on even your side of the table, allocating funds to broader both GPs and asset classes has been fascinating. And then spending a ton of time on mentees. And Kelly, you mentioned earlier how much you enjoy seeing the people that you mentored and uh, help promote thrive through their careers to see them succeed. And I have been so excited with both folks that are in the firm, but many that are not GPs and some that have been promoted to partner and never that went off to Start their own firms. And I really. It's not a very scaled model, but I really love that the PE Win and Venture Forward are more scaled. But I love the mentoring. And then the learning was the third thing I really wanted. And I have more time, although you guys probably had the same thing. I would get all these great emails about this conference and that conference and this class and that class, and I think, oh, I want to do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I have a conflict. I don't have time. And I'm starting to sign up for those things. So I took a class at MIT on AI and then going to more conferences around that, but learning more about wellness. Katie, you and I did some. A lot of classwork together on that, which is awesome. Still trying to work on balance and strength in our dinos.

Speaker C: Balance, yeah, That's a big thing.

Speaker B: You know, more time with friends and family, more travel, um, you know, which is a great source of learning. We just got back from a great trip and spent time earlier this year in Morocco, which I had never been to, and just a lot of exciting things. So I think, you know, seeing things that were not just scale, but beyond growing, helping share what I have to help influence other people. And I think in many ways, most of that is helping them find their own what their own superpower, not me giving them the right answer, because it's already usually within the others. And then they're learning. And that's the part that I get back. And I love it. I just love it. How about you, Kelly?

Speaker A: One of the things that I did, actually, while I was still transitioning was I started a foundation. It's called the Williams Legacy Foundation. I'm the CEO of it. And that's been really rewarding for me because I've been able to take the benefit of all my years of hard work and direct philanthropy in areas that mean a lot to me. And so I do spend a fair bit on that. And the primary thing that I started to transition into, and this started again back at the time, shortly after the sale of the business to Grosvenor, was I started to get involved in the arts world, and I joined the board of the Smithsonian American Art Museum, which is one of the most important American art museums in the country. It was the oldest of all the Smithsonian museums. And that has been incredibly rewarding. It is an extraordinary thing to have the responsibility to steward the art collection of the American people. And eventually I became the board chair there. And so I have really doubled down on that I've realized this is something I'm passionate about. I'm a collector, I'm an active collector and it really is something that came from my time, uh, since I joined the Smithsonian. I'm now the incoming uh, board chair of the Norton Museum of Art in Palm Beach. Katie and I just ran into each other in Palm beach not that long ago actually. And I'm also on the board of the Brooklyn Museum of Art. Um, and I've done a variety of things over the last decade in the art or art adjacent world and that's been very, very rewarding and has opened the world up to me in a different way. I've got to meet the most incredible people. I do a lot of traveling now with the museums and I'm not a tour person. Andrew and I like to do our own thing but we really like touring with art museums because you are with people who are like minded and you get entree into the most extraordinary private collections and that has become a real passion for us. Travel has been a big part of my time since, since selling the business. In terms of learning I mentioned I joined a public company board. I'm now on two for profit boards and in each of those areas there's just been a lot of learning. And I like you Kate. I'm a bit of a governance geek. I love the non gov piece but I've just taken on the role of compensation committee chair and because I want to of fill out my, my skill set from a board governance standpoint, I've really enjoyed that. And again that doing those things have opened another completely different world for me. And so I would see those are the things that are really exciting me. Kate and I have also gone through a transition at PE Win and that we used all our transition skills and knowledge and experience there and to great result. We have an incredible board, an incredible board board chair, incredible leadership there. It's amazing. This thing that we've all nurtured for so almost two decades has become such an extraordinary institution now. And the lesson learned I think is that everyone's replaceable. As much as you think the world will stop spinning if you're not there anymore, um, but you can make sure that your impact endures. You don't have to be there every day, but if you handle these transitions the right way, your impact and your ethos and your values will endure long past the time you're sitting at your desk every day. So how about you Katie? What's exciting?

Speaker C: I've got three. I've done A lot of traveling now in my last couple years especially. And what I've got on the agenda is all, uh, Alaska in July, Sicily in September and Croatia in November. No, October. And then next year it's Norway, Greece and something else. So those are big trips and big time sinks and let's see if they all come to pass. But that's especially since I've now become our travel agent. There's just a lot of time sink on, um, hotels, flights, evaluating tours if that's the way we want to go. And like you, I've done some art related. Oh, Brazil. That was the other one that's coming up through an art organization. So that's actually a big time to think. And then I have three kids and guess what? Luckily they still want Mom. I say there's at any one point in time, there's two of them who still are more demanding. It shifts over time which one it is of the three. But I've got. My daughter's going through a job transition now. And it's interesting trying to give her advice. She's in a very different career than I was in. More artistic and trying to be supportive of her while still wanting her to make enough money to live on and support herself, which she's doing, but it's more of a challenge in the art world. And then two sons who are. One's an environmental engineer and one's a lawyer. So none of them went into my business. But trying to give them advice and spending time with them, um, is a welcome use of my time. Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's interesting and I know Katie, you've been involved with nonprofits and Kelly, thinking about your comments, I've been thinking about this stage of my career to be sort of leaning in more on philanthropy. Um, I really do believe that, you know, that the adage to whom much has been given, much is expected. And I think taking things forward and I think, Kelly, watching what you do. We've been also big supporters of the arts at National Gallery. My husband's a trustee at San Francisco Museum Modern Art. Venture Forward and PE Win. That where I know we're all supporters of PE Win. And I think this idea of giving with warm hands. A good friend of mine gave me that idea. You know, you spend all this time doing estate planning and that. And then when I die, this. All these great things will happen. Wait, I want to be here when it. I want to be. When I want to see the smile.

Speaker C: I want to put.

Speaker B: Participate and being able to, as an example, support, pun and to See the work they're doing in the foundation, Kelly, which you're more involved with than I am, um, of Pew Win, what we're doing in terms of supporting other women, which is the whole point of Pewin. But seeing that grow and become more impactful, there's an element of joy. It's this full circle idea that I benefited from people helping me on the way up. And if I can do that now, and in particular, if I can do it with warm hands, if I can do it while I'm here, all the better. There's a huge amount of joy associated with that, and I think, frankly, an example for a lot of others who might not yet have caught that bug.

Speaker C: Perfect.

Speaker A: The other thing I want to just leave as a parting thought is, um, for anybody thinking about transition, you know, you've transitioned from a senior role in your firm. You're clearly a very talented, very successful, very driven, very accomplished person. That should give you a tremendous amount of confidence in whatever you decide to do next. Kate and I both went through renovations of our homes. In my case, I did all the interior design myself, and the first home I ever designed ended up in Architectural Digest. And, you know, to me. Yeah. So that. To me, that said, okay, you could be. If you're good at one thing, you could be good at other things. Things. If you apply those skills, you have, um, and you may not think you're creative, you may think you're a left brain or right brain, whatever brain, you can activate both sides. The nice thing about having this time is, Katie, you talked about doing woodworking and doing other things. You have a chance to use your whole brain now, and you can be successful at many things, and you should approach each one of them with a great deal of confidence. I really feel like whenever I go into anything now, I'm like. Like, I can do anything. I can really, I can do anything.

Speaker C: Your world is your oyster.

Speaker A: Exactly. This has been an incredible gift to me to get to spend time with two of my favorite women in the world today. And I have a sneaking suspicion we will be back doing this again. But I want to thank Katie Stoeckle and Kate Mitchell for being my guests today on moments that made her. And I hope you guys enjoy all those amazing travels that you just rattled off.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker C: Thank you so much. It was a delight. I'm so happy to be asked and, um, to be included.

Speaker B: Thank you, Kelly. And we'll add to your list of many accomplishments that can do is. Who knew that you would be such a successful podcast host? And we're thrilled to be your, uh, subject.

Speaker A: Stay.

Speaker B: Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Moments that Made Her. I'm Scotty Wardell, co chair of the PE WIN Communications Committee. M As a reminder, the content in this recording is for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. We give no assurance or warranty regarding accuracy, timeliness or applicability of any of the contents of this recording. This recording is provided as is, and pe, when expressly disclaims any and all warranties expressed or implied to the extent permitted by law, except where acknowledged. The copyright and all intellectual property rights in all material in this recording are owned by PE WIN and our affiliates and should not be reproduced without our prior written consent. Other organizations or brand names used within this recording are for identification purposes only. The content set forth in this recording may not be sold, reproduced or distributed without PE win's prior written consent. Any third party trademarks, service marks and logos are the property of their respective owners. Any further rights not specifically granted herein are reserved. Thank you again for joining us today, and we hope you tune in for another episode soon.