How small properties can outrun chains with tech ft. Elise Roberts of Happiness Hospitality

Elise Roberts: The tech is selected to serve what we do. If you have the right tech, it helps you with efficiency so the team can focus on doing what they do really well. Human connections.

Host: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to MadTalks Hospitality. Today we're talking about technology in the boutique hotel context. How do you build a tech stack when you have a small team, a seasonal market, and limited data? Where do economics stack up and where can AI deliver for an independent property? My guest today is Elise Roberts. She's the general manager of the Gallivant, a beautiful boutique hotel on the coast of East Sussex, which holds a Michelin quay and a visit, England's small hotel of the year. Before the Galavants, Elise worked in sales and marketing at various hotels, including Aviator and Hilton. And she knows what technology looks like at scale, but then also in the independent environment. And I think that's a really interesting of perspective to get. Thank you for joining us today.

Elise Roberts: Thank you, Matt. Really pleased to be here.

Host: Elise and I know each other really well because 22 years ago when I started in hospitality, and I think it was also your first job. Ah, 22 years ago at the Hilton.

Elise Roberts: Yeah.

Host: We were sitting next to each other as, like, very junior people at the Waldorf in Hilton. Um, and we've kept in touch since then. But, like, I wanted to make sure that we put a disclaimer out that I know you very well. So before we get into operations, I want to understand his philosophy around the Galavant, because you've clearly won a number of prizes, so you're doing something really well. And I also heard you have the Head of Happiness. Is that a thing? Head of Happiness staff?

Elise Roberts: Absolutely. A very important thing. I mean, I think for us, it's all about experience. So not hospitality in the tradition or hotel in the, uh, traditional sense. So everything we do is built around the idea of happiness. So happy team, happy customers. And, um, for a customer, that can be anything from a great night's sleep or a meal with food you actually want to eat in, um, our restaurant, Harry's, or sharing a bottle of English sparkling wine in the sand dunes with your partner and watching the sunset. And that's why we have a Head of Happiness, because it's. It really guides our brand and it's a real role and a very deliberate one. So everything we do centers around that,

Host: because the awards are almost the output of a strategy that you set probably years before to get to the stage of getting an award or a Michelin key. But how do you strategize around kind of culture and Building that guest experience. Because it doesn't just happen overnight.

Elise Roberts: No, it really doesn't, I suppose. I mean, partially. That's where the tech comes in. The tech is selected to serve what we do. So if you have the right tech, it helps you with efficiency so the team can focus on doing what they do really well, human connections. And I mean, it's kind of a no brainer that if you build a happy team, then they're probably going to want to make customers happy or it enables them to make customers happy.

Host: So you said the word tech and I immediately want to go down there. But actually before we go there, I actually would love to hear more about the Galavant. What's the hotel? What's the experience you're trying to create?

Elise Roberts: So again, it's. It's not a hotel, it's an experience. So it's where people can come, to slow down, to reconnect and um, fundamentally feel like themselves again. So Happiness is a place is our brand tagline, if you like.

Host: Yeah.

Elise Roberts: And it's something that, uh, Harry, the owner actually came up with during COVID He was thinking about what, what are people going to want when we come out of this? What are they going to need? And really started leaning into that kind of childlike nostalgia of being on the beach, uh, running up the dunes, paddling in the waves. Like these kind of relatively simple things are really all anyone's looking for, whether it's in food, you know, who doesn't like french fries and mayo, or the simple connection with the beach, getting outdoors when we were all cooped up for so long. So fundamentally happiness is simple, but actually it takes quite a lot of work to really create the environment, I think,

Host: because you know what you want to achieve, but then you're not around to create all of those experiences. So you have to have a team that has the freedom to make some of the decisions. And do they feel like they can sometimes do something that's unexpected?

Elise Roberts: Yeah, I think so, absolutely. Um, and they need to if they're going to be happy, otherwise they feel completely constrained. I mean, so yes, we have frameworks that people operate within. We have all the boring black and white stuff. We're not overly heavy on SOPs, fundamentally certain things like how to operate the positive does need some guidelines. But then once people have learned the basics, then they can be free to add their own personality to it. And, you know, they're much closer to it than I am day to day. They know what's making guests tick in real time. So what we Find really important is constantly getting their input so we can help evolve the guest experience and what we're focusing on.

Host: And being a UK based hotel, obviously, um, I think the hotel industry has struggled in the last few years at least we see that from the data versus other destinations. How do you keep your head above water when the economy is struggling and people are making hard decisions on travel? How do you differentiate yourself enough to be able to succeed in this environment?

Elise Roberts: I mean it's really hard, uh, hospitality right now, it's actually really upsetting looking around, reading the headlines in this uh, country, how hard people are finding it, how uh, most hospitality businesses are either closing or cutting back, cutting corners, streamlining, whatever it is. But for us we work incredibly hard. We have to, we look for efficiency all the time. Um, we iterate the product so there's no kind of this is what we do and it sits stagnant for the next three years. We're constantly refining and iterating and sometimes it drives the team nuts because as soon as they've learned something, we're changing it again.

Host: Here comes Elise with another great idea that I have to now implement or

Elise Roberts: Harry, particularly the owner. Um, both of us, we work very closely together and, and I think it's a great balance the uh, working partnership.

Host: What's an experiment that didn't work and what's an experiment that did work?

Elise Roberts: Good question. I mean something we're looking at right now and this is um, you know, not a very, I guess exciting one or experiential one, but we relaunched the restaurant in February last year and we were quite tunnel vision focused on um, driving and building our local following and in doing so we priced our menus from what we considered to be, I guess, the right position for the local market. And as a result we've really quite negatively impacted our average spend. The menu pricing range is more narrow so when people want to splash out they can't. And that was clearly a mistake. So we're addressing that now because what we've learned is the local market really love coming to us during the daytime, whether that's a walk on the beach with your dog and then coming and having a great lunch and that's to more day to day trade. And then when they come and have a meal in the evening, it's more of a special occasion that aligns very much um, with, with the experience our hotel residents want as well. So actually we, we need those um, premium dishes and the ability for people to go a bit wild and treat themselves because even though People are perhaps traveling and eating out, uh, less when they do, they want to have a great time.

Host: I love that and I love how you like how you try things. Look at, does this actually profitable make sense? And then you iterate again. I think too many hoteliers are not iterating and I think that's the only way you get it right. If you just put yourself out there, you acknowledge that sometimes we do something wrong. But actually an iteration of, of that first try is a better one than the original plan that you had, right?

Elise Roberts: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's tech, isn't it? Don't be afraid to fail. Yeah.

Host: Uh, so let's talk about technology because we're obviously a technology podcast. That's what we have to talk about. So I'm imagining that a smaller hotel doesn't have an advanced IT department that is setting up all those systems for you. Like who does this at your hotel?

Elise Roberts: I do and the owner does. We work together. You are looking at the head, the co head of it.

Host: How do you go about setting a strategy for technology then?

Elise Roberts: As in a documented on paper strategy for um, IT or tech? No, but fundamentally tech has to do something, doesn't it? It has to help drive efficiency and for us free up time for the team to do what they're doing well. And we're constantly looking at um, the tech we use, um, and improving it

Host: because we, we started at Hilton together. And um, there's this assumption in the world that the big brands have the best technology because they've got unlimited budget, they've got IT departments up the wazoo. And independent hotels struggle because they don't have access to great technology because they're small independents. Do you agree with that, that statement or actually do you think that independent hotels can thrive because of their independence?

Elise Roberts: I think so. And I think modern tech has, uh, given much more opportunity to independent hotels. I mean fundamentally technology is for hotels of every size. I think the big groups, and I'm being very generalized here, but I think they're strong commercially with their data loyalty and driving repeat behavior to their brands or their partners. And uh, that's heavily incentivized. But where they probably feel less evolved for me operationally is they have tech stacks like everyone else and they're layered. But it can often be, and it's changing now, but uh, at the core of their tech stack are legacy systems and then they're bolting on newer tools on top. So while on the face of things it may look and feel a bit better, I don't think it's actually making life easier for their teens and therefore I don't think it always translates into a better guest experience. So as an independent we're certainly not more polished, um, but we can be more agile, we can be a bit scrappy and we can try fit things and move on quickly if they don't work. And I think that's also supported by newer tech because what we're seeing more and more is contracts are shorter. You're not being locked into the kind of three years. So when you've got a contract that's a year if it's not um, or less. Some are even on rolling 30 day basis. Nowadays if it's not working you can just flip it and um, that speed's an advantage.

Host: Have you ever done that? Have you ever started with a tech vendor? And I'm really within a couple of months that this doesn't work for me and I've switched it off and moved to something else.

Elise Roberts: Rarely within a couple of months. But when we're upgrading we will often leave a contract before it runs out. So we're paying for a few months or more at the end. And that happens? Um, not that regularly but we just did it with our restaurant uh, booking tools. So I think we paid for three months at the end. Um, you know we were doubling up and uh, it was worth it for improving the guest experience and um, the commercial opportunity.

Host: What does your tech stack look like today?

Elise Roberts: Big. Uh, so we've got about 18 systems.

Host: Wow, that is big.

Elise Roberts: Yeah, it's a lot bigger than you would think for um, uh, a small boutique hotel. But everything is carefully chosen and has a purpose and if it doesn't, um, or if it's not adding the value that we thought it would or that it once was, then um, we change

Host: it because do you have an economic framework within which you think about it? Because there's a real cost to software. You have to pay a monthly subscription fee. But how do you, how do you calculate whether you should have it or not?

Elise Roberts: I guess fundamentally it comes down to two things. So is it genuinely adding more value than it costs? So whether that's revenue efficiency or better decision making and will the team actually use it? Yeah, so ease of use is critical. If it's not intuitive and the team can't just pick it up and use it, then it's not, it's not going to land. You know, in a, particularly in a small um, business, you know, we just can't justify kind of two weeks of classroom training to learn a new system. I mean, I remember doing that back in the day. It's wild. Yeah.

Host: Learning dos, like where's the mouse? I'm like, there is no mouse. Okay, great. How do you deal with training though? Because we do have turnover in hotels, so I'm assuming that you do sometimes have new team members. So how do they get comfortable with the technology?

Elise Roberts: I mean some things you really can just pick up and go. Obviously something like Muse, it's a little bit more involved. There's like serious process in there that people have to follow. And um, that's a key factor actually in decision making now uh, as well is do they have good resources so the team can self teach? Because we can't do that with, you know, we don't have an HR or a training department. So there has to be something that I'm confident and the team can learn what they need to learn. And then of course, when they start in their first couple of weeks, somebody's assigned to buddy them and coach them in the process.

Host: Um,

Elise Roberts: and um, we have checklists which uh, are designed for people to use in their first two to three months of a job while they remember everything they need to do. Which is key because hospitality is way more complex than anyone appreciates, um, outside of our world.

Host: It is. But I always wonder because we used to hire people that had skills on the legacy systems because actually that gives them a head start because then we don't have to put them in a classroom for two weeks. But then you don't always get the best hospitality. And it sounds like you're leaning into the experience side more than can they type data into my system very fast. Um, so I don't think you necessarily look for the skills to operate the different systems because they can learn that pretty fast. But you look for a different skillset nowadays than we did 10 years ago.

Elise Roberts: They do need the capability to learn it though. So we try and understand what people have used, what they're using in their personal life. Um, because somebody's just not kind of comfortable with the digital world is probably going to struggle a bit.

Host: What's your favorite interview question to ask a candidate to discover this?

Elise Roberts: I feel like I might have stolen this one from M, you or someone else. But at the moment we're asking, I'm always asking people how they're using AI, so how they've used it at work and how they're using it in um, their personal life. And to give real, um, examples. Because what I was finding is everyone's saying, yeah, I use AI.

Host: It's like, okay, which means I've asked really dumb questions to AI, but that's not using AI.

Elise Roberts: Yeah, exactly. So talk to me about that. And that's becoming more and more important. You know, I, I spend most of my day using my AI tools now to help me output more um, and it's really helping.

Host: How do you use AI? Sorry, I'm going to flip this interview question on you now. What's your actionable advice for hoteliers who are not yet using AI? What should they do?

Elise Roberts: Use it? I don't know why anyone wouldn't be using it because for me I'm a fairly heavy user of ChatGPT and um, Claude and I'm constantly flipping between the two and I use them for slightly different things. I think they, they both have their strengths. But I use my ChatGPT for um, for meetings, I, I, I record, transcribe, I have meeting notes. It makes, it makes, it enables me to be the manager I want to be in that respect. M so for example, uh, you know, having a proper regular one to one with a team member and following up with minutes and all of the stuff that sits around that was impossible before because I don't have a PA who can take those notes for me. So that's how I'm using ChatGPT Claude I use for much bigger project. We've recently embarked on a bit of an HR and payroll restructure and code turned a task that would have required um, uh, you know, an HR team, a finance team, and I don't know who else to support me with it into something that I could actually manage and output myself. And that's wild.

Host: Like even that experiment that you talked about in the restaurants where you had the original menu, then you changed the menu, you can info feed in the financial results and you can ask Claude to analyze and give recommendations and Claude

Elise Roberts: helped me do that, love that. Uh, and it got me and your AI is only going to be as good as you are and the information you're feeding it and the context that you're giving it around the information. If you just dump a load of information then it's going to make incorrect assumption that is a certainty. But where I got to in the time it took me to get there, it's so much quicker so we can move faster. And my team are also using it very similarly. So I try to be completely transparent about how I'm using it and I share it with the team as uh, examples and I coach them setting things up themselves and you know, I'm still uh, a Claude rookie. Someone recommended it to me. But it's, you know, it's, it's really impacting and the more and more you figure out uh, how to use the tools within it, the more valuable it becomes. I mean the only problem is you build so much um, data or you add so much data uh, to it, you, you become, it's impossible to leave

Host: where you actually now have better export tools. I've recently migrated from OpenAI to Claude because we've, we've got an enterprise subscription to it. So you can actually export some of the data and migrate it much, much easier than it was like what, two months ago? Like it's so fast moving. Yesterday I had, um. Because we have way smarter people in our business than I am. So I was listening to a meeting of One of our VPs, um, who talked about um, how do you teach Claude basically to get better? And he said initially when we use it, we ask it a question and have give some output and then we'll take that file and then we modify it because it made a few mistakes. And he said no, no, never modify the output. You go back to the input and you teach what the agent got wrong so that it's like you got this thing wrong. And we have to constantly keep teaching the input part so that it gets. Eventually you should never touch the output because the output needs to be 100% correct. But we have to keep training the upside so that you're not constantly fixing the output because that's a one time thing. And then next time you ask it a question you have to fix it again. And it was like such an eye opening moment because I was like, yeah, I'll just get it 90% done and I'll fix the last 10%. But ultimately we should just be managers of agents, like in a tech company more probably than in a hotel. But I thought it was a really

Elise Roberts: interesting, I mean I don't think so actually. I think that's um, the misconception perhaps. I mean, I think certainly, um, and maybe this goes uh, back to the conversation. I don't think you have a chance of effectively managing a small boutique hotel as well as you can unless you embrace all of these tools and they are integral to what you do.

Host: I totally agree. I think because your team can't be everywhere all the time because you know you have limited staff. So you want to cover the baselines, right?

Elise Roberts: Yeah, absolutely. And in the kind of back office management function, if you're not using it, you can't deliver the hospitality you want to. Yeah.

Host: How do you think about cybersecurity and protecting the data of your hotel? So there's a wild question, but I know you have a story there.

Elise Roberts: It terrifies me. I mean it's uh, it's the scariest thing and um, keeping on top of it with a team who are, you know, they're sharing hardware and it's way easier for them to log into or to stay login, use somebody else's password and so on. So therefore you two factor authentication falls off because they, they can't do that if they need to text their colleague to get the uh, task code or whatever it is. So I mean that's something that recently I've been spending time like you know, chatting to the team individually, helping them set up the passkeys and um, explaining why it's important.

Host: Because it doesn't feel important in the day to day. That's the problem. Right. It doesn't feel like a priority in the day to day.

Elise Roberts: Well, it's an extraordinary for them and they just want to get on and start doing their job.

Host: Yeah, they just want to log in with like a simple password and then, or even not even no password. That would be even better for them, I guess.

Elise Roberts: But absolutely, yeah.

Host: We've all been at the reception desk where you know, when they have post its on the screen with their passwords on it, like that doesn't feel like the greatest security.

Elise Roberts: No, absolutely not. I mean I remember um, years ago, post its all over the reservations off with different guests, credit card numbers.

Host: It's scary.

Elise Roberts: At least that doesn't happen now.

Host: Yeah, but it's, the challenge is like when I talk to our security teams and about how do we build solutions and it is, you know, we're all sharing the computer at the reception desk constantly and you have to, you know, different people jump on that computer and then you have to log out and you have to log in and two factor authentication is an absolute nightmare for usability. But at the same time, um, the cyber attacks keep happening in our industry and we see it consistently across different platforms. Um, and that's why I keep raising it as a topic. We have to figure out how do we get people on passkeys. Passkeys is like um, biometrics super safe or single sign on. But the smallest that would never have single sign on set up.

Elise Roberts: And yeah, I mean if it's not, uh, people will keep getting hacked. I mean I can't remember what I was reading the other day, but it was really just reinforcing the message. Stop using passwords.

Host: What in your tech stack could you not live without that's an in.

Elise Roberts: Well Muse obviously waiting for it.

Host: Like it took you a while to get there.

Elise Roberts: Um, yeah, I mean of course, Muse, besides Muse.

Host: I don't want to, I don't want you to talk about Muse because you feel like you're obliged to. But are there parts of your tech stack that you're like for an independent hotel this is a really critical component to success.

Elise Roberts: No, I mean I think fundamentally it's how they all integrate um, and work together. And we, you know, we're now a uh, relatively long term user of Muse and we genuinely wouldn't be doing that if um, you didn't keep iterating and adding value uh, to your product. And what you've been doing, I uh, guess more recently is adding um, with tools like uh, Atomize and Muse. Pos and for me and how I'm looking at Our Tech Stack 18 Systems is a lot. So when I can bring more in under the Muse umbrella, that's actually makes uh, Muse even more invaluable to us.

Host: If you think about your tech stack, is there something missing today that you'd love to add in the next year?

Elise Roberts: No, I think we're more looking at streamlining and replacing ah, some things that we've been using for a while that um, perhaps we can do better. Um, so coming up in the pipeline over the next kind of couple of months is we've actually got quite a lot planned so we want to move to Muse. Pos we're going to replace our yoga class, uh, booking app with uh, something uh, simpler and more cost effective. We're also planning a migration from Microsoft to Google Workspace. And actually I think where I can answer that question with what we need to add is some automation and sales process. So at the moment we're really quite manual because I think because our offer is really very personalized. Um, so lots of our event bookings they're taking the hotel exclusively for leadership retreats or brand launches. Uh and therefore it's difficult to do a one size fits all proposal and so on. But I think there's definitely opportunity at the early stages of the sales cycle to get that uh, appointment locked in. Whether it's a uh, kind of show round on property or at least just the conversation with our sales team to take it on to the next step.

Host: So is there something that you can't do today but you wish that Muse would build as a feature or product that you'd like to see solved in hospitality.

Elise Roberts: Well, fundamentally our yoga classes, uh, being booked outside of Muse is one kind of fiddly little extra, which I guess it's not frustrating because, uh, you know, it works. And then alongside that we have, um, a membership. So we have a yoga membership and a membership of the GAL event for people who want to come in and spend more time. Uh, you know, we have a room where people can work, spend the day treating it as their home office, connect with other people.

Host: And you're setting that up in Muse as a co working or you have a different.

Elise Roberts: No, we, I mean currently we take the subscriptions, um, just simply via stripe, which is, you know, it does the job. It's not very sexy. Um, so we do want to do that, uh, in me. So I think that's, I think that's something you're working on.

Host: Yeah, yeah, you can actually set up the subscriptions Muse nowadays so you can create. We've got hotels that are testing this where you can set up a subscription imus so you can have members and then you can set up a recurring charge, for example, so if every month you have to charge, um, the credit card of the, of the person, it should be able to collect it. And we've been building this recurring charging because it's quite complex, um, because you have to think about, okay, mid of the month, this person starting. So what do we do with that first month or when they're terminating. But we've been working through that in the last few years. So this is definitely something we can help you with. I know great sales. Call them on.

Elise Roberts: We can talk about some other product, uh, challenges if you like.

Host: I love it. Actually, I would. If there's something that you would love to see us build because we're, we're obviously constantly building and it's hard sometimes to keep up to the day as a hotelier with some of the stuff we're doing. But what are some of the things as an independent hotel you love to see solutions for?

Elise Roberts: Interesting. Well, so what we're. And actually I think your, your product team have really, uh, helped us. Agnes, who I think you've met, my reservations manager, she's had some really good calls with your product team about the way we can, uh, better utilize the booking engine because we, um, used Muse M distributor, Interestingly, what we want to do came from Harry, the owner, seeing a Muse property in France. I think it's called Susie Blue. And they're using the booking engine much better than we are. Uh, and you know it's the feature releases that we miss because we're all too busy doing other things. And um, but it's great they've talked us through how to do it and it's just a little neat solution that they've got to driving direct business rather than people booking via OTAs. So you go into the booking engine and it's a pre populated promo code that says book direct on the um, uh, booking engine and get 10% off. Probably more snappily worded than that but that's effectively what it is. So I uh, you know that that was a key thing for us and we, we were having quite a clunky workaround with OTAS to get around the genius discount and um, you know, so yeah, they've clearly figured it out and the functionality within the booking engine is, is much better than it was and I understand the pricing piece uh, along the, the calendar range as something that's coming along soon as well. So um, it's all happening.

Host: Yeah, yeah, it's been asked by a lot of customers before. Yeah, like it's always the hardest thing is how do you prioritize between you know there's we've got 15,000 hotels on the platform and you know for a boutique hotel the needs are very different for a thousand bedroom hotel that we have at an airport. But um, we want to make sure that we do constantly keep moving on all the products and that we keep iterating and that feedback is, is very valid how as we release things and it sounds like you're at the heart of the tech stack together with a colleague but how do you keep up to date with some of the stuff we're releasing? Because some of those pop ups that happen you're like yeah, I'm busy checking someone in. So it's really hard for us to communicate. How do we communicate better some of the exciting features or are we doing an okay job so far?

Elise Roberts: I mean it's difficult isn't it? I always look at the um, little feature panel of the. What is it? Bottom right of the dashboard and I'm very rarely looking at it at uh, when I see it but I always kind of click the link, copy the URL and um, put it in my um, never ending to do list, um, or share it with the relevant team member who I want to have a look into it. Uh, so I think that works. Um, actually and you know within the team it's about trying to build that culture of discovery and improvement. Um and I'm sure They really tire of me, um, suggesting, you know, every time they ask a question, my response is, well, Muse can probably do that now. Find out. Uh, but it's difficult to keep up with, um, and I wish I had more time.

Host: Thank you for sharing all of these things so openly. I've put you on the spot several times, but it's because I know I can with you, because I know you so well. Um, tell me about the Galafans. What's next for the Galafans in the coming years?

Elise Roberts: M site too. So the, uh, builders are about to get started with an open date for, oh, exactly a year today. Yeah. Really exciting.

Host: That's exciting.

Elise Roberts: It's. It's been in the pipeline for a while, and, um, it's super exciting that we're going to start moving forward now.

Host: Are you doing things differently in the second properties that you've learned in the first property?

Elise Roberts: I mean, definitely. Um, it's. And that's one of the exciting things to implement everything that you've learned, um, whether that's from how your housekeeping storage is arranged through to, um, you know, the dream tech stack without anything in there that's clunky, not working for you. Um, and. But. But fundamentally, it's going to be another Galavant. So this Galavant will be, well, and is the Galavant Cambussans. And that will be the gallivant, little stone beach. And it's literally just 25 minutes. I'm looking up the coast, um, from here. You know, that's great for property, too, because you can really benefit from the economies of scale, um, of having both sites close together and manageable for me and other members of the senior team who'll be working across both.

Host: Exciting. Congratulations. Thank you for, um, joining me today. I really enjoyed all of your answers, um, and I can't wait to see you again soon. But, um, thank you for the insights.

Elise Roberts: Great. Thank you, Matt.