The Data-Driven Playbook for Modernizing Iconic Brands

Speaker A: Welcome to Marketers Alchemy where we pull back the curtain on the intricate world of data driven marketing. On this show, we delve into the convergence of marketing as an art form and data as a scientific foundation, unveiling the secrets to turning raw data into marketing goals. I'm your host, Katherine Ternoff, Senior Product Manager at Deluxe. Join us as we dive into real life case studies and give you a front row seat to industry pioneers and visionaries. This podcast is brought to you by Deluxe, a business a pioneering force in data driven marketing, using intelligent data to build marketing campaigns that help you win more efficiently. Welcome to Marketers Alchemy turning data into gold. I'm Katherine Ternoff and I'm here with Matt Ripicki, Chief Brands Officer at Tailored Brands Inc.

Speaker B: Welcome, Matt, hello. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Thanks for being on. Can you tell us a little bit about your career journey? You have worked with some really iconic brands. Barbie, Amazon Fashion, and now Menswearhouse and Joseph. What's the through line that connects these chapters for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, I have been really fortunate in what is a sort of non linear career path. But you know, a lot of the time it is working on brands that people know but maybe don't think about in the way that we want or need them to. And so I tend to do a lot of transformation work throughout my career, uh, in terms of assessing where the brand's at and sort of what we need to do to pull it forward.

Speaker A: And then let's talk briefly about tailored brands and the work that you're doing there with them today.

Speaker B: Yeah, so as a chief Brands Officer, I like to say that my role is to act as an ambassador, if you will, across our portfolio of brands with consumers. And like I said, we have well known, well loved brands, but they all need a little bit of polish in terms of getting people to resonate with them again. And so I work across brand strategy, all of our creative insights, pr, a few other functions, with the idea that we want to stay connected to consumer insights and what the consumer is thinking about our brands relative to our goals and how we create a strategy to again move them forward.

Speaker A: So if I'm a brand and I see Matt coming, I know I'm about to get a little bit of a glow up. Would that be fair?

Speaker B: Sure. A glow up? Yeah, a glow up. And also just be ready to sort of throw out, what do you say, like sacred cows and really kind of peel back like everything's up for discussion and debate. I think a lot of times when I Have, you know, joined an organization, you know, touching a new brand, you start to peel apart and look at like why things are being done and kind of just ask those questions of like, I know that served us at one point, doesn't serve us today.

Speaker A: So let's dig into it. We're going to jump into our first segment. Alchemy unveiled mixing marketing potions. So we covered this, right? You've worked across wildly different brand contracts. A global toy icon, digital first retail, and now this heritage menswear brand. And they also have physical stores. So how are you recalibrating your marketing approach each time you step into a new environment?

Speaker B: You know, first of all, I love the term alchemy in that I really see the work that I do and we as marketers do of uh, mixing that sort of like, here's something I logically know with. Here's just my finger on the pulse and I'm getting a sense of like without in the ether. And so I think it's, it's really important to bring two together. For me, it's about again, really quickly assessing kind of where is the brand currently living in the consumer's mind. And I'm a huge believer going back to that sort of data driven part of alchemy and insight. And really the first thing I do is start to dig into like, what is the consumer saying about us? What do they think about us? And some of that is through research, some of that is through social listening. A lot of that is through going into stores and just talking to customers. But really assessing the landscape of like, okay, here's where we sit today. And then you normally have a sense of, great, here's where we are, but here's where we feel like we need to be. And starting to assess kind of like the gap or the chasm in between and like what you need to do to close it.

Speaker A: What helps you decide what secret cows or whatever it is get left behind and what moves forward with you?

Speaker B: Again, it tends to be sort of poking on the, is this still doing the thing it was doing for us when we started it and how relevant is it to today's audience? You know, I'll give an example of anyone listening who used to work for me on the Barbie brand. I had a concept refrain which was out of home is dead. Don't even bring me an out of home idea today. We do out of home. So things are cyclical. But also it's like that recognition of, okay, we were at a moment in time by which it didn't make sense for our audience and for our business and brand goals. Fast forward. Today we're opening men's warehouse stores with a fairly rapid clip, which is exciting. And we use out of home to communicate to that community that a new store is opening. So I think it's all relative, but the determination of, like, what sacred cows to continue using that phrase get left behind is really the, like, relevancy of, uh, hey, we're doing this, but, like, is it still serving us in the way that it used to?

Speaker A: Makes sense. And if you think of, you know, how we talked about these, all of these companies have different decades of consumer perception, right? And so when you're collecting data via in store, you know, talking to folks in stores, or just kind of getting that social listening as you're collecting that data, how does. How do you value the two or balance the two between where it actually stands in the culture and how people inside the company think it stands? Like, is. Is there some cognitive dissonance there that you have to overcome?

Speaker B: Absolutely. I think, you know, a phrase I use often with the team is like, this sounds or seems very inside baseball. I think it's so easy when you're touching something every day to get really caught up and they're like, oh, well, this is what it is. And is as soon as you step outside of that, you realize, oh, wow, like, the public at large actually thinks about it very differently. You know, one example, and again, I think this is common amongst marketers, is you work on something for so long, by the time you, like, birth it or bring it to life, you're tired and you're done. But the consumer's just getting started and, like, really holding the line and saying, actually, like, we need to give this some time because the customer is not immediately seeing everything that you've been doing and you need to get them on board. And so I think, like, that's one consideration. The other is, again, using research and insights to really help inform some of that internal conversation. So we just completed a brand strategy refresh across the portfolio at Taylor Brands, which was super exciting. We started it by going out and doing a whole bunch of research. And that allowed us to come back to some internal stakeholders and say, hey, like, I know that we think X about this brand, but actually the consumer today is telling us why. And like, sometimes that's maybe not what we wanted to hear. A lot of times it's actually like, improving what we thought it was. And so really using that, like, being tethered to the consumer through research and insights I think really helps to like, disarm and change some of the internal bias or perceptions that exist.

Speaker A: If we think about tailored brands, right, you're operating across multiple distinct brands, all under one roof. How do you think about the data infrastructure when each brand has its own audience, its own history, own DNA? How do you think about those holistically?

Speaker B: Well, I think you have to sort of fight it in a couple of ways. One is that we have four menswear specialty retail brands in our portfolio. So there's certainly some commonalities and some synergies that we should think about the same time. Each of those brands has a unique position in the marketplace, and they're not. They're not actually that competitive with one another, which is surprising to the people. It also gives us a greater span of the marketplace in the consumer mindset. And so within that, I think it's working with the teams internally to say, what are the pieces of information that kind of complement a synergistic view of, uh, okay, actually like this is happening in a macro kind of like menswear space, and it's going to affect all of our customers somewhat similarly versus, what are the insights that are saying, hey, we want this to show up specifically for Joseph A. Bank, and it's not going to mean the same thing for Men's Wearhouse. And again, the brand strategy project that I just mentioned was one way that we also were really working for our own purposes, which will hopefully manifest towards the consumer of delineating how these brands get talked about and show up. Because I think it's easy to take an insight and say, oh, this means the same thing for everybody. And that's certainly not true. So I would say we definitely do use data and we want to carve it out relative to, like the brand it should apply to. But within that, it does mean something different relative to who we're talking to.

Speaker A: That makes sense. And I think too, if we think about menswear category, right, it spans every day from everyday business casual to these once in a lifetime, you know, wedding suit. So if we think about segmentation strategy, how does it account for customers who might be shopping with you at very, very different points in their lives?

Speaker B: The men's warehouse business is so fascinating and unique because it's really built around this idea of those moments. And people come to us because they're getting married or they have prom and. Or they have a job interview or they have a first date or, you know, whatever that sort of, oh my gosh, this is something that I want to make sure I'm showing up correctly for. And so we do see them in these cycles that correspond with kind of major life stages somewhat differently. On Joseph A. Bank, that customer is a little bit more attuned to. He just likes the way he dresses and he has his own point of view. And he comes to us much more regularly because he's into sort of the wearing of it all, if you will. And so a, we have to kind of bifurcate the way that we're talking to and showing up for each of those audiences. And we've done that through our segmentation. But what I think the beauty of how we're trying to look at our segmentation is that not every customer is going to fit neatly into a box. And so the idea is that we actually are, like, pushing our marketing and our creative and our messaging and our product through the lens of what's going to be most exciting to those segments tied to each brand. But we certainly don't want to ignore anybody or turn anybody off because, again, like, there's a wide swath of men across the country that these brands are speaking to.

Speaker A: And you have to stay relevant for those in between moments as well. Right? Yeah. So if we think, like, are there certain data sets that you use to help target men or people really that are in the these, you know, moments so that you can meet them at the right time?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few things to look at. One is, you know, you can start to get some affinity groupings around, hey, I'm, um, planning for a wedding, or I'm searching for an engagement ring or, you know, what are wedding venues? And they give you a sense of, hey, this person might be in the need for a suit for his wedding, uh, type of thing. We also look at. And again, just to stay on wedding for a moment, it's cyclical, but not in the traditional retail cycle. So most people get engaged between Thanksgiving and Valentine's Day. And we all. We now have for the past four years, we have media running during that period of time that is about wedding. So that the folks who are getting engaged, we are top of mind. Which, again, is sort of like, maybe not intuitive and definitely not tied to what a lot of retailers are doing. But, you know, we're using those inputs to make our marketing decisions accordingly. So I think that's like one thing that we start to look at. The other is I really love to look at sort of the entirety of his life adjacency. So sure. Like Joseph A. Bank. We're here and he needs a sport coat for, you know, a weekend outing. But, like, what other brands is he shopping with? And, like, where else is his wallet showing up? And how do we kind of, like, find points of connection with those brands so that we show him that we're a part of his overall life? And not just that, okay, I'm only getting married once in my life, and that's the only time I need to go to Men's Warehouse, for example. But, hey, actually, like, I have these other things that are happening on my day to day, and, like, this is a place where, like, I can get outfitted to accommodate those.

Speaker A: As we think about all of the data that you use, are there any data points that surprised you?

Speaker B: Something that we have seen on the Men's Wearhouse brand? Again, it's a brand that everybody knows, but it has 92% favorable. So there's a very, very small portion who think I'll call it negatively about Men's Wearhouse, which really struck me and kind of, like, had me step back to say, okay, the job to be done is actually. I don't want to say easy, but the reconsideration of the perception changes that we're trying to go after. Even though, to your earlier point, Catherine, it's a brand that's, like, 53 years old. Everybody, like, knows that it's, like, steeped in culture and heritage, but it's not like an immovable target. And so I think that was a data point where I was like, oh, wow, okay, like, we can do this, and we can actually, like, create that mass reconsideration and move perception in the direction that we're hoping to.

Speaker A: I would have thought, candidly that, like, 92% would be, like, we're doing great, guys. Is that not typical? Like, is. Is 92, like, not as good as I think it is? Or was this just a high standard for. For them?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think 92 is incredible. And that was what caught me off guard. I felt like, okay, because we have other sort of attributes that we're measuring where people will say, oh, the. Well, the brand feels outdated, or that's where my dad shop. Like, the suits are boxy and they don't fit me. Right. And those are their perceptions, and you take those attributes and then you stack them against. But on the whole, people think really positively about this brand, so. Oh, okay. What I need to do is actually just, like, reintroduce them to the new and contemporary version of, like, who and what we are. And they're Willing to consider us.

Speaker A: Got it. That makes total sense. Okay, so they're already favorable for it. We just got to get you in the door, okay?

Speaker B: Yep, exactly.

Speaker A: So let's move on to our next segment. From nuggets to campaign gold, we like to dig into specific campaigns here. So you've leaned into comedy and storytelling as part of your creative approach at, uh, tailored brands. How do you use data to decide when to lead with emotion and humor versus maybe a harder hitting, conversion focused message?

Speaker B: Looking at general sentiments that we have around our brands, and I just touched on a couple of sort of the attributes we look at. But we gone through a period with men's wear Hustler. People felt we were highly promotional and through that highly transactional. And the sort of like synthesis of that insight was in order to like change hearts and minds and get people to consider us differently, we had to create more of an emotional connection. And for a period of time that was wedding all day, every day because we had a backlog of weddings from the pandemic and people couldn't wait to get married. And so we took advantage of that. And so a hundred percent of our advertising was people getting married. And it worked. But as those weddings stabilized again, I, uh, like look back and mined the data to see, oh, actually now like some of these attributes are starting to stagnate because we're telling people we're for one thing, they don't need us for that thing anymore. So how do we start to show up differently? And again, like take this brand that people know and then turn heads a little bit. And you know, part of this was my consumption of too many trend in advertising reports and just seeing what, what folks are talking about out in the ether, which was, hey, comedy is having a moment and people want something that's light hearted and they want to connect that way. And then part of it again just is like mining the data to say, like, what are people thinking about us and how do we get them to change that? But we landed on comedy as an approach to say, hey, let's talk about sort of the ethos of the brand. Do it through a comedic lens to get people to again kind of like get disarmed, but also show that we don't take ourselves that seriously. You know, I'll say, like back when I was working on the Barbie brand, the brand at the time had been highly, call it litigious, where they were very protective of the IP for very good reasons. But we as a leadership group realized that like if we were taking ourselves that Seriously, we could never truly engage with culture. And so we had to also show that we were fallible as a brand and lean into people making fun of us. And it worked. And I think fast forward, we're trying to do something somewhat similar to Men's Wearhouse to say, hey, we're part of this. There was a comedian who was on Jimmy Kimmel two weeks ago, and he showed up wearing this, like, bright yellow suit that clearly he did not buy at Men's Wear House. But Jimmy said, hey, I love your suit. And his immediate response was Men's Wearhouse secret section, which doesn't exist. But that to me was like, there's this moment where this brand is part of culture and we need to figure out how to participate in that.

Speaker A: And then how do you measure if that tone is actually working? Are there some early indicators that you kind of use to know that your bet's paying off?

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, first of all, sometimes, much to the chagrin of my creative partners, we put all of our concepts through consumer research, focus group testing. And it's not to say we're going to throw the idea out. It's more like, how do we turn the dials to tighten it and make sure that it's going to be as effective as possible? So by the time we produce and something is quote, unquote, hitair, we've already kind of done a little bit of digging to make sure a set of consumers is going to respond to it. But then within that, you know, we do things like, again, we talk to 300 men every single week through our Brand Insights Partner morning consult. And so we get a really quick read on consumer sentiment relative to the work that we have. We also do social listening. People aren't shy. They're going to tell you if they don't like something. So we use that to inform as well. And then just from a business standpoint and a marketing KPI standpoint, we have an MMM in place that on a weekly basis is also telling us, hey, is this work actually driving top line? So I kind of triangulate those three things. The latest set of work that we just released from Men's Wearhouse has been on air for a couple of weeks. And I've already gotten kind of a quick view on, hey, how's it tracking? And it's still early, but relative to those inputs. And so that's the first thing that I start to do is really, like, take a look at what that data is telling me.

Speaker A: Was there ever a time you can remember where that Data that you were collecting kind of pushed you in a different strategic direction than you had initially been anticipating of taking the campaign.

Speaker B: I mean, one thing that we did last year is, you know, we had three spots and one of them was a guy at a wedding in temperature controlled fabric that we called Shellflex. One of them was him at a backyard barbecue and one of them was him and his sister's birthday party. And again, we were, we're trying to like hit a few different levers, a few different product categories. And in the end, like, the data showed us that each of those served a purpose within the funnel, which was great, but that the wedding work highly resonated. And again, like I mentioned, we have the wedding sort of planning process is very cyclical and you can kind of like bet by it. And so what we tried out and it worked and we're doing again this year is we actually like overweight at the wedding spot with our media mix relative to the others to say, hey, like, we have a lot of things we want to say, but this thing is really important in these periods of time when people are going to be thinking about, hey, what am I wearing to this wedding? And that was again, a shift we made kind of midstream. It wasn't sort of what we set out to do, but as we started to kind of see the results and we're like, oh, this piece of work is resonating differently for a lot of good reasons. We should actually like double down on that.

Speaker A: So if we think about media strategy as this lever, right, that you are pulling to drive reconsideration, how do you use data to make your channel decisions, especially when you're trying to reach audiences who might have written off your brands.

Speaker B: You know, we spoke earlier about the glow up or what people see when I come into a new brand. And I think one of the first things I always start to look at is assessing like our media mix and is it as relevant, as relevant as it could or should be compared to the audiences that we're trying to speak to. And, uh, I'll share. Like, when I, you know, rejoined the Barbie brand, we had a new piece of like seminal advertising directed at parents to again change hearts and minds of what their perceptions of the brand was at the time. And Barbie traditionally, like, everything just immediately went on linear tv. And I just come from Amazon where I'd done a lot of testing with streaming video. And I kind of raised my hand to say, actually I think we should put this on YouTube first. Now this was a number of Years ago, I think today, like, everybody would agree, like, you should always, like, YouTube should always be a part of your mix. But the time that hadn't been the case, and, you know, to me it was, well, YouTube's gonna allow us to target parents specifically. It's gonna allow us to, like, hit a frequency and a reach that, you know, will buoy when this work goes on tv, so on and so forth. And so I think within that, in the end, we launched on YouTube and it did exactly as I was hoping it would, which was awesome to see. But it's really like, how do you. How do you make sure you're, like, using the channels in the right way relative to your overarching campaign goals? With Men's Wearhouse, we had never been advertising on Pinterest where there's half a billion wedding pins. And I've been talking sort of since we started this conversation around how important wedding is to our business. We talk to teens every year about prom, and we weren't on Twitch or any gaming platforms. And it's sort of. It's a. Okay, how do we always kind of poke at, ah, what we're doing again, making sure we're not setting it and forgetting it, but, like, holding ourselves accountable to, like, what newness could be introduced or test into.

Speaker A: How do you know when this media shift is actually changing perception versus just changing the people that see your ad? Is there a way to tell?

Speaker B: Haven't gotten to the level of granularity that tells me perceptions or sentiment relative to exposure to a particular channel, but that would be incredible. I think part of it is, you know, we have a baseline of, like, here's. Here's where we are showing up and here's what people thought about us. And then fast forward and now has that changed? Good, bad, Otherwise, what. What becomes difficult is. Is that because of, uh, the creative in the message? Is it because of the placement? I don't know that we have pulled that apart entirely yet. I mean, we certainly, like, look at media results relative to, are they driving the general media KPIs that we're looking for. But I love that push. And I'm going to go back to the team and see is there a way that we can dissect this, uh, at a more granular level?

Speaker A: A little bit of the alchemy there that you would need, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. If we talk about Barbie for a second. Remarkable brand reinvention. What role did data play in identifying the right moments and. Or maybe how did it help you choose YouTube for example, so that you could kind of lean into that reawakening.

Speaker B: One of the first meetings I had was with our head of insights at the time to just try to understand, like, what are people saying and thinking about us? Like, you can see top line revenues decreasing year over year. You can see that retailers are like, like reducing shelf space, like, well, what's behind it? And at that time, it was the perception from parents that the brand was superficial, it didn't have play benefits for their kids, they didn't want their kids engaging with it. And so again, what the, the team had already sort of looking at was like, okay, well how do we get in front of parents to, to shift that? I came up with a new brand campaign. You can be anything, which they're still using, which was this a way to have consistency of message and really like hearken to, like, this is the purpose of the brand. But in terms of the, like, well, where does it show up? You know, again, I, uh, I wish I could say I had. I didn't have data for Barbie on why we should go with YouTube. It was really more like having just come off of my time in Amazon and being a first mover in so many places. And at Amazon, like the edict is test and learn, test and learn, test and learn. And I started to introduce that point of view to my team at Mattel with the same idea of like, let's just put some stuff out there and see if it works. Um, fast forward. My first week at Taylor Brand, someone from the YouTube team was presenting some case studies to us and he didn't know I was going to be in the room. And one of the case studies was what we'd done with them, uh, on Barbie, which was kind of full circle and fun to see. But yeah, I think sometimes, you know, it's not so much a data point going back to alchemy as to why you're testing a platform or a new media channel. It's really like, what are you reading and consuming? Kind of like seeing out there in terms of like where your audience is moving and the recognition of, hey, we're not there, we should get that a try.

Speaker A: It feels like that piece of it really goes beyond maybe some of our vanity metrics, right. To looking. If you're truly delivering on these campaigns, are there any tips that you have for really like staying true to that and like ignoring kind of the noise a little bit and really making sure that you're delivering?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think it's easy to chase shiny objects and I think it goes back to something I said earlier of holding the line of like, hey, we have a strategy now you should always be open to reassessing and looking at should that strategy shift based on real sort of data or inputs. But it's also I think important to say, hey, we set out to do this for a reason. Let's see it through and give ourselves the latitude to let it really again get digested by consumers. What I think happens a lot is you want to try something, you put it out in the market and within a week it's not working. And then people start getting worried and nervous and I understandable but I, you know, oftentimes like my ask is to like, okay, like let's give us a second and let's like see this through so that we can get a true read. Otherwise like, we're not going to know if the test is successful or not. So obviously that's kind of my sort of like words of wisdom or guidance is like believe in why you wanted to try this in the first place and like give it its due.

Speaker A: Can we flip that for a second? Right. Can you think of a time where the results were initially exactly what you wanted to see, but then as things went on they turned out to be a little bit more complicated and wasn't exactly what you had expected?

Speaker B: Mhm. Maybe again, going back to some of the advertising work that we put out for Men's Wearhouse last year. Like I said, we had sort of three different pieces of work and again we had tested it before we produced it out of the gate. The results all looked like super positive. Our roas year over year was incredibly high. So that was exciting to see. And I think that was like surface level. So it was like first pass, like yep, this is all working incredibly well. And then as the, as the flight or the campaign went on and we were able to like dig in with a little bit more detail, it started to like really pull apart the pieces of work that were like really performing the things that were so. So which again, I think, you know, is fair and on the whole they were doing beyond what we expected them m to do. But then you start to say, okay, well let's be really real with ourselves and look at some of the metrics and, and yeah, you know what, we're going to actually like pull this piece out of the mix, which we've done, I've done many times. It's like you put something out there and if it's not working, like kill it just because you spent the money on it, it's not worth like continuing. And so I would say that certainly has happened where again, staying super close to the data throughout and not just taking that first path and that first win and like, you know, walking away.

Speaker A: You have such a balance between collecting data and different types of data. And then also that alchemy piece. Right. Knowing when to use it, when to like trust your gut. So thank you so much for sharing that with us.

Speaker B: Yeah, of course.

Speaker A: I uh, want to move to our last segment, which is the gold rush round. We have a little rapid fire. What's one marketing metric you learned to trust less than most other people do?

Speaker B: I think one of the things that I continue to question or doubt is when we go out and do research on consumer sentiment relative to like, here's something, here's what I'm willing to pay for something I would say that's never actually like panned out in the way the consumer tells you. So maybe like more broad stroke is like self reported aptitude for here's what I'm willing to pay, here's what this means to me. You know, a few examples. One, we do a lot of, we do some made in USA domestic manufacturing. When you ask the consumer, is this something that's important to you? Absolutely. When the rubber hits the road, are they willing to like pull that thing off the shelf and buy it a little bit less? So I think, you know, you go back to like sustainability. Like do you want something that is like upcycled or sustainably produced? Yes, that's the only thing I want to buy at the end of the day. Like that's not necessarily the case. And so I think that's, that's a set of metrics whereby I've learned like it's directional, it's not like unimportant, but I probably give it a little bit less weight than other things.

Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. So Barbie or Men's Wearhouse, which brand had the harder marketing challenge?

Speaker B: You know, I think honestly Men's Wearhouse in that it is uh, just a different use case. And you know, you're like getting people who as we talked about earlier aren't dressing up every single day in the way that men used to. And so it's really like getting them to think about you. Yes, they know us. Yes, they don't hate us, but like what are the reasons why they continue to come back? And so I think on, on Barbie, yes, there was this immediate like pretty big like challenge of parents don't like us. But also we knew that even if the parents didn't want to buy the doll, girls on average had six dolls at home from gifting from hand me downs from you picked it up at daycare and so they were still having access to the brand. So at the end like the sort of like things that had to be changed were a little bit more like discernible I think on Men's Warehouse and again we're making great progress but it is really getting into the mindset of this guy and like where he's sharing his wallet on a regular basis about

Speaker A: Men's Warehouse and, and maybe other legacy brands. Right. But what's one belief about legacy brands that you think is flat out wrong,

Speaker B: that you can't change perception? I hear all the time people saying, well like this brand's too old, like it is what it is and it's baked. And I think I've shown time and time again that's not the case. And so, and it's not even a multi year effort, like I've changed perception within a matter of weeks when you have again the right alchemy, the right things all coming together.

Speaker A: If you could give one piece of advice to a CMO walking into a heritage brand for the first time, what would it be?

Speaker B: Don't throw out your heritage. Figure out what still resonates with the consumer and modernize it. George Zimmer hasn't been on TV in 15 years, but there's 20 year olds who know him. And the original tagline, you're going to like the way you look at Gary, guarantee it. We've shortened it, made it a little bit more modern, but we still use it because there's a ton of equity there. There's no reason to walk away from it.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for joining us, Matt. How can our listeners learn more about you and what you're up to?

Speaker B: I am overly avid on sharing the work that my team is doing on LinkedIn, so please find me there.

Speaker A: Great. We will. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker B: Thanks Katherine.

Speaker A: To never miss an episode. Subscribe to the show wherever you listen. I'm Katherine Chernoff and this is marketers Alch Sam.