103. Series 4 | Episode 3. How to Build Trust and Drive Growth with B2B Influencer Marketing, with Vahbiz Cooper, Digital Marketing Manager at Demandbase

Matt Dodgson: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Market Mentors podcast. I'm Matt Dodgson, co founder of Market Recruitment, and we connect B2B tech and SaaS businesses with marketers to help them grow. This week we're joined by Verbiz Cooper. Verbiz is digital marketing manager at Demandbase and someone who's been responsible for pushing forward their influencer marketing campaigns. So let's dig into how this could be useful for your B2B tech company. Welcome to the podcast for Biz.

Vahbiz Cooper: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Matt Dodgson: Absolute pleasure. So today we're going to be talking about influencer marketing, specifically within the B2B tech space. Um, and our aim is to give our listeners some insights on how to tackle influencer marketing, um, especially if they've never done it before. Um, but before we dig into that, what drew you to sort of specialize in this area? I know you've had a broader background in B2B marketing, haven't you?

Vahbiz Cooper: Yeah, uh, I actually had a really great manager which made influencer marketing look like a lot of fun. Which it wasn't so much at the start, like when I started out, uh, and then somehow I never looked back. I kept learning. I took a lot of courses and then it just became my thing. Uh, and initially social was always like home to me. Uh, but then as I drew out and I started learning more things about. Audiences are not only going to come to you through social. The space developed. So I was like, okay, there's more to this than meets the eye. Uh, and then you just grow in your career as well from like a young college graduate, from somebody who's now like a proper corporate professional. Uh, and you just learn things along the way. So I never felt like looking back after that.

Matt Dodgson: Awesome. Awesome. Well, I mean, I've been in B2B marketing recruitment for a while now, so a good sort of 15, 16 years. Influencer marketing is definitely getting a bit more traction, isn't it? You know, when I, even a few years back, if I was thinking about influencer marketing initially, I'd be thinking about B2C marketing rather than B2B. So if you're, if you are, you know, if you are a business and if you are thinking about this, then, uh, why do you think or what are the benefits do you think there are of doing, you know, influencer marketing for a B2B tech brand?

Vahbiz Cooper: I think, uh, the biggest benefit is to build trust because, you know, when we have, like, a corporate page continuously bombarding, like, oh, we give this, or we Give that. Or we have this event and that event, or all that is good and it's necessary 100%. Uh, but when you have like a figure that you trust or somebody who has a decent amount of authority, when that person is particularly talking about a particular service, a product or anything, uh, that builds trust. And he or she already knows, like, what their audience are looking for. And it's always good for an influencer not to just like, oh, like, just because you're paid so you're going to promote it, they need to themselves also, like, have some sort of faith in the product before they, uh, showcase it to their audience. So I think, uh, that is like a responsibility on the influencer side. But I think that is the biggest benefit that you have, like somebody with that level of, uh, authority actually talking and vouching for the particular product or the service that, you know, they're talking about. Uh, I think the other benefit is, you know, it just breaks the monotony of the whole thing because it's like a person, you have a face, you have like somebody who is like representing. It's not just a, uh, logo. So the connection is more that, that develops, is more real. It's not like, oh, you know, like, we know somebody who knows somebody who's used the product or sometimes you just hear about it in a community and things and you just like, chat about it. But this is somebody who you can, like, go back to, to and be like, hey, like, what do you think? What are the advantages? What are the disadvantages? Like, there is a face to the actual thing and not like, like just not like a logo that is saying something or just like a random article or just some thing on Reddit that they read.

Matt Dodgson: Yeah. And, um, I guess it's a little bit like personal branding, isn't it? In a way. You touched on the fact that people don't buy from organizations anymore. You look at, you know, some of the, even on LinkedIn, some of the LinkedIn company pages, they're pretty stale, aren't they? Uh, the right, you know, and we've had in B2B marketing the rise of the personal brand because people want to buy from people. And it kind of comes back to that, you know, we are, uh, you know, person to person rather than being B2B or B2C. So it ties in with that. And I'm, you know, I'm a big fan of cycling and road cycling, so I'm always a sucker for looking at what, what products the influencers are recommending.

Vahbiz Cooper: Ah.

Matt Dodgson: So having been on the side of it as a consumer. It definitely does work because you do build that trust and that affinity with an influencer. Um, so for anybody that's sort of thinking about doing this, then I guess the first step they're going to think about is how do I actually find or how do I choose the right sort of influencers for um, the marketing campaigns? How would you suggest they tackle that?

Vahbiz Cooper: Yeah, I think the first thing that they need to do is understand where exactly their audience are. For mostly for B2B, it's on LinkedIn. You will get your majority of your crowd on LinkedIn and once you identify that, uh, that's the first step and once that is done, you need to see who are the people on LinkedIn actually talking about your product. Like the kind of product or a service that you want to like, you know, uh, want them to talk about. And before that it is more like uh, are their followers your audience? Like the people who are commenting on their uh, posts and they're engaging with their content, Are those people your audience? Because many a times it so happens that you know, we uh, we know people, we know big names, they have huge followers, but they're not exactly the right kind of influencer for a particular campaign that we are probably currently running. They might be good for like another campaign or maybe they might not be good at all for us. Uh, so we really need to check that the people who are engaging with their content are they really our audience. And once that is identified then it's like very easy. You reach out to them, you ask them if they're interested in collaborating with you. Uh, most of the times they would uh, you know, ask for like a payment or something. Some other times they would be happy just to speak about us, uh, on like a podcast or on their newsletter. And that's how you like develop the relationship. Uh, also it's like in, in B2B especially it shouldn't happen like, oh, I reached out to this person as an influencer, uh, they did what they have to and then the relationship's done. No, like, you know, it's not just a one time thing that you do, uh, or just like a one odd campaign that you run with them. Like you have to ensure that you're also continuously building your relationship with them because it shouldn't happen. Like, oh, I gave you X amount, you said this. And then like somebody, a competitor, ex comes along the way and then you are getting paid and you know, uh, there goes whatever we've spent and then they're talking about them. So you have to cultivate that relationship with them as well. And you can do that in multiple ways. You can call them on a podcast, you can have them write a guest blog, involve them in, like, thought leadership content, ask them for, like, their guidance, or, like, give them sneak peeks to anything beta that's getting run. So all of that, um, stuff needs to happen. And unfortunately for B2B, most of the influencer searches are super, super, super manual. I know there are endless tools out there that can, like, they claim to help you and they do to a little extent, but you still have to go in, open that person's profile, see what they're talking about. Because, um, sometimes we see people with huge followers and the only thing they're saying, like, oh, I had this for breakfast. I went, uh, out to this event. And it's like, yeah, but you're not giving, you're not adding value. Like, you did all this and you must be great, um, at that event. You must have really added, you know, uh, given a lot of value to the people who attended that event. But what is it that you're showcasing on LinkedIn or on the platform where we want to connect to our audience through you? Uh, so you have to be very careful, um, on who you're, like, selecting as an influencer. It shouldn't just be like a big name with big followers. Like, there's a lot of things that you need to see on the background of the whole thing.

Matt Dodgson: Because there's a bit more to B2B, isn't there? But you could sell into the finance sector as a technology company, but selling into big companies is very different from selling into small companies or even consumers. So you might find an influencer that's perhaps, or somebody, uh, an industry expert that's got a huge, uh, following. But actually, when you drill into it, as you mentioned, the audience is just slightly different. One thing you touched on there was about, um, an influencer perhaps signing up with you and then signing up with a competitor further down the line. I mean, are there any ways to protect that? Because, you know, it doesn't look great, does it, if somebody's one day promoting one product and then the other day promoting a competitor product? It sort of devalues them a little bit.

Vahbiz Cooper: Yes, yeah, no, 100% that happens. And, um, you know, once your contract is over, they're not like, legally bound at all to not work with a competitor. I think, um, of course you can protect that in ways where you develop a relationship with them and you know, then they're yours. But it's hard and it takes time to build those relationship and in certain cases, even years. And what is it that they are looking for? Because ultimately they're people too. Uh, they have to put food on the table too. And they have to do, like, they have to do a lot of other things for themselves as well, like their growth and their audience and everything. So I feel like it's always good to continuously have some sort of communication with them, like, okay, like, we want. We want to, you know, use you as a ways to reach our audience and that all is fine, but what is it that you want? And the one thing that I think has worked the best, at least for me, is I never tell them what to do, what to write, uh, how to, you know, sit, um, in a video and what the background should be and what the color should be. And I have, like, seen a lot of people who, like, literally tell the influencer to the T or what needs to be done. And that's frustrating for them as well. It's. It's like, uh, what am. It's. It's just not their natural flow. So once you just tell them, like, hey, this is what we want to promote. And you do it however you want. Like, if your style is funky, if your style is serious, if you want to just talk about it, like it's on you, you know, your audience. So that is the first icebreaker sort of a thing. And then you continuously ask them, like, sometimes just have a random chat with them, like, how's family? How's things going? Like, is, um, if they're. If they're, like, running a bigger company, like, if they're a co founder, give them the product to use as well. Like, oh, we'll give you, like, three months free instead of, like, you know, maybe a month or something. Or we'll give you, like, a really good discount. When you give them, like, the deal, you give them a package deal as well. Like, we'll give you a really good discount versus what we would otherwise sell. So always ask them what is. What is happening on that side of the screen or the fence or whatever, versus just like, oh, we want this from you, we want that from you. Oh, the campaign is done. We got good metrics, so we're good, like two deals. Um, it's just not how it's supposed to be done.

Matt Dodgson: It's got to be a true partnership, isn't it? Um, yeah. And. And you hit the nail m on the head. It's got to be authentic. Too. Because if built up an audience, an audience will see through it straight away if the influencer isn't acting like he or she normally does. So uh, and they're obviously very protected of their own audience too, aren't they? Because their uh, livelihoods depend on it. So, uh, cool. So uh, I mean, let's say for instance we've identified an influencer or some influencer that can help us then what do you think are some of the most effective channels them, but also content formats them for this?

Vahbiz Cooper: I think for B2B mainly the channel is LinkedIn and whatever it is that works for the influencer. Like if most of them are really comfortable doing video content because we've seen like the growth of video content happening. And uh, again, I think on a video you can hear the person, you can see the person, there's like a face. Um, so that's always good. Like it just builds the connection. It's not like just a text post saying, oh, demand base is really cool. Use demand based. We can see that happening on the brand page as well. So I think that is the main thing. Uh, also now LinkedIn has started this reels kind of a thing, uh, which also helps just short snippets that are really quick bites so they can also promote um, over those things. And unfortunately TikTok in India is banned, but I've heard that it's really working really well in the US. So yeah, if TikTok is working really good, that's another platform that, you know, people can leverage.

Matt Dodgson: I can't remember what the situation is in March in the US for TikTok, but uh, I know it was going to be banned but then Trump came in, didn't he? But um, cool. And you know, it sounds like LinkedIn's almost becoming a little bit like TikTok with the promotion of reels. It's all about getting engagement and people to stay on the platform. So this, I think this is probably my next question is going to be one of the questions that a lot of people think about with this, especially today. You know, we're recording this in 2025. The economic situation is reasonably tough for people. There's been a lot of change within B2B tech companies certainly here in the UK and I know over in the. So the pressure's on for marketers. You know, if you're a marketing leader, uh, you've got to be very careful with what you're choosing to do. And it all comes down to a lot of the time, not always because you do need an element of brand building too, but it comes down to return on investment. Um, so if somebody's thinking about doing influencer marketing, then how would you get them to measure return?

Vahbiz Cooper: So this always gets tricky, uh, no matter what tool you use, so always start with you know, things that are easy and you can see and you can measure it like super quickly. Uh, what kind of engagement is there? What kind of likes are we getting? Uh, what is the comments that we're getting, how many reposts are happening, uh, from the influencer or like their company pages or whether they're doing it only for like our demand based page. Uh, so all of those things of things, how, um, how many video views they are getting, uh, you know, um, the average time, the time of the video, uh, the views, average time the views have had taken place on the video. So whatever you can see and easily measure, that's the best and that is where you should ideally start. Uh, and then also it's like when you're running an influence influencer campaign, it shouldn't be like dry, like you know, like oh, we think that you're like really good. Just post this for us. Or we selected you on like our top 30 list. So hey, congrats, you should go back and like give them something like give them some cookies or like a money tree. There's so much you can do now and you can like be super creative, um, with the swag that you're giving and like gamify the whole thing, uh, and also see like how many people have responded back to you or how many have actually bothered to uh, you know, share the creative that you've sent to them or like filled up the form to receive the gift from you. Uh, and all of that stuff, uh, when it comes to you know, measuring it monetarily, it's always a little bit tricky because uh, you know, when you're just doing lists and when you are giving somebody credit, there's not much that you can do except just monitor the kind of reads or like uh, the number of reads that has happened on that particular blog, uh, the views, the average time, uh, just the website traffic on that particular URL. Uh, so that is the things that you can measure on that site. But if you have paid a particular, particular influencer and they are, you know, um, doing a particular campaign, that is when you can give them UTM links, uh, which is the best thing that you can do and monitor the traffic, uh, monitor what kind of audience that they're bringing and the rest is just a Lot of surface level metrics. When you are having you know, events and things like that where you've invited like an influence influencer to speak. So how many people have come just to listen to the influencer versus like oh, this is a demand based event so we have to be there. Um, and also when you're a sponsor at other events, when we have like influencer partnerships, uh, so what kind of people have actually come back and asked like oh we know Demandbase is a sponsor like and we want to connect um, to uh, like for a demo or we want to connect with somebody. So what, what kind of people have come back? Are they really like our icps or it's just like they just wanted to build a relationship. How many demos did we get from the particular influencer who was there at um, the event? Or if, if there's like an influencer partnership then how many people really questioned about demand based. So you can measure all of those things as well?

Matt Dodgson: M. Do you think it's realistic to be able to put a figure on it in terms of sales then? Or should you be setting your expectations that it's more around more top of the funnel brand building more of those kind of engagement metrics that you're talking about essentially getting in to that person's audience? Do you think you should set your expectations more on kind of like that top of funnel stuff or do you think it's realistic that you should be able to say do you know what, off this campaign we actually generated £20,000 in sales.

Vahbiz Cooper: I think it depends on the kind of campaign that you're doing. I think the, when you're doing like just lists, um, it's totally fine if you just have like the surface level metrics and everything looks good and people have come to your website. But when you're, you're like paying the partners, like the partnership influencers, uh, like for example we have like 30 MPC and we have women in sales. That's when you really have to like uh, go ah, like a level or two deeper. Like oh, you know like we, we are fine with these but what is it that, what is it that we've got from you guys back? Like how many people have registered and from these registrations, like how many people really are like, you know, matching to what the kind of audience that we want and uh, you know, their email addresses, like if we would want to reach back out to them, uh, with like a discount code or things like are we getting that sort of proper data from them as well? That is when you do go like, you know, a level or two deeper. Uh, but most of it, when it comes to measuring in terms of sales, does get a little tricky because we have had situations where, uh, we've just made a list and we've like nominated the people on the list and they've come back and reach out to us after a year or so saying, oh, I was on this list, so I know about demand pace. But, uh, that time I was in a different company or they didn't have the budgets. But now like, I want them, I want demand based in the new firm. I have grown. I am like in a leadership position. So now I can, you know, vouch for demand based to come. So, uh, it gets really tricky, uh, unless we really know, like, oh, this person's reached back out to me or somebody who's run the campaign, they would probably just go on the website, book a demo and we would never know, uh, where the person exactly, uh, came from. So that, that happens as well.

Matt Dodgson: Yeah, gotcha, gotcha. What about, um, you know, I can think of some organizations that have done this then, but I mean, have you got an example that you could perhaps share, um, around this?

Vahbiz Cooper: So we did the most recent campaign around like our advertising influence influencers, uh, and advertise. And we tried to showcase like through ads we get growth. So it was a really fun campaign where we, we selected people who. We uh, did a top 20 advertising trailblazers list and we selected people who are really good. Uh, and they speak about like Google Ads and how paid ads are really, you know, helpful in B2B. And we once, uh, we, you know, selected them and gave them the recognition that they deserved. Uh, we send them like these money trees because that represents growth. So we did like this fun campaign around them and pretty soon we are also going to invite them on our podcast or like Thought Leadership forums. Um, uh, and all of that, uh, so far, like, among all the campaigns that I have done, my personal favorite was, uh, one that we did, uh, with my ex manager. It was also an advertising campaign where we sent, um, unicorn pinatas to people. And that was the time when we said that we have the unicorn advertising solution. Uh, and people were, you know, bursting the pinata, the kids were busting the pinata, and they posted it on LinkedIn. Uh, and once we saw like, oh, the people are posting it, we also send them like Grove cookies because they were like kids who were doing it. So it was really nice. So that was a campaign that's my personal favorite. Uh, but we do have another, uh, campaign coming up by the end of this month, which is also going to be something like, really crazy and really fun. Uh, I'm just gonna wait and see how that goes before I give that campaign the top position in my favorites. But, yeah, I think up until now it would be the unicorn one.

Matt Dodgson: Great stuff, great stuff. What about some mistakes? I mean, you've done this yourself. So for people who perhaps are going to do this for the first time, what sort of mistakes, um, should they avoid then? What are the common mistakes that happen?

Vahbiz Cooper: Uh, I think firstly, it's like, don't tell the influencer what to do, Tell them what you expect out of them. Or if you have a landing page in particular that you want, like, them to promote in the newsletter and all of that stuff, that's fine, but do not go up to them and tell them to the T what they need to do, how they need to talk, if they really need to wear like, the branded shirt and all of that. Uh, that is something many people do and it's a super common mistake and it just spoils the whole fun. Do not do that. And the other thing is, you know, some and, uh, people forget that an influencer is also a human at the other side of the screen. Um, and it happens sometimes when you have pressure too, to like, bring that much amount of engagement or like, oh, why are we not seeing this person, uh, you know, talking more about us or where are, like, where is the metrics? Like, we haven't seen, um, you know, that amount of growth, or the likes are low, the comments are low. Uh, and sometimes that just happens also because LinkedIn's algorithm keeps changing a lot. So it's not like, oh, it's the influencer's fault and it's really easy to blame them. It's like, oh, like, you know, you did this post and you got so many likes, but you didn't get that many likes on the post that you did for us. So you shouldn't idly blame them. I mean, it's tough to say, but it's not like, oh, it's not their responsibility to get X number of likes. Like, of course they will do their level best because they do want the business from us. But you have to be like, respectful and not be like, you know, super pushy and like, oh, you did not get this. We've paid you X amount of money. We expected this amount of likes. If that's the case, ensure that you've had that communication before, before the contract is made and before the contract is signed. Uh, otherwise it's just going to be very messy. They're not going to be wanting to work with you. Another thing I feel is sometimes influencers, uh, have things going on in their personal lives and they're not able to deliver. So give them that space, give them the time, like, have that communication as well before the contract is signed. Like, in case we want this delivered on a Monday and you give it to us on a Wednesday. How much, you know, uh, cut. Would that happen? Would there even be a cut or there wouldn't be a cut on, like, late delivery. What does that look like? If we want changes to the video, if, if we've seen it and we feel like maybe you can just alter this part just a little bit, um, then what does that look like? Like, and don't go and tell them to alter every single thing in the video because that's just like, you're just doing the same thing. You're just telling them what to do. Unless you really feel like, okay, we should. The influencer shouldn't be saying this thing only then, um, and give them the time to like, edit that and come back to you. Because mostly they're working with 10 other, uh, you know, companies and other things as well. So it's not like, oh, I told you today. And you ping them again tomorrow saying, oh, we haven't got this yet. Like, give them the time, give, uh, them the space and keep. Like, it's always good to over communicate versus just like assume and then be like, oh, where's this? Oh, where's that? We haven't got this. We haven't got that. So communicate with them and please pay them on time. Do not. Or like, if, then if you're working with a really big name, they usually take an advance payment. Uh, but if there's somebody who's new and they're just recently starting out and you want to give them a chance because they're really good, please pay them on time. Don't hold that back.

Matt Dodgson: Well, a lot of these influencers are running effectively small businesses, aren't they? They are the business sometimes. So, um, and it's a small industry. So if you're not going to treat your influence as well like you would your customers or your prospects or your employees, whoever it might be, it does get around, doesn't it? So, yes. Cool. Last couple of questions for me then. You know, in terms of developments, you've been in this industry, you've been doing influencer marketing for a little while. I've seen it springing up left, right and center a lot more. I've seen it in action with, with a lot of companies too. Well, how do you see it evolving in the sort of um, you know, medium to long term?

Vahbiz Cooper: I think medium term is still okay. We will still have like, you know, fun, more fun and human content that's happening. Uh, and more like non serious things like, oh, you know, they have this and they have that. I don't see that. I don't see a lot of videos like that happening. More like, oh, did you do this? Did you do that? Have you heard about this, like fun stuff. One thing that I am looking forward to at the same time afraid of is these AI influencers that are coming up. Uh, I don't know, I know that they're doing pretty decently well in the B2C space. I'm not really sure how they're going to perform in the B2B space because it's in B2B. It's hard to build trust anyway and there's like a ton of competition happening. Uh, so I don't, I, I don't know how that's going to look like, but I am excited. Like should we be experimenting with some AI influencers in the B2B space? Um, I would say no for now but I mean you never know. You know, like the few you blink and the LinkedIn algorithms changed, you blink and there's something else happening and the world's totally changed. So yeah, we don't know what the future holds. I do see that happening for sure into in the B2B space as well. I just don't know how credible um, people are going to look, uh, you know, towards them. Like are they really going to trust AI influencers?

Matt Dodgson: I don't know.

Vahbiz Cooper: I think that time is going to,

Matt Dodgson: Yeah, I can't see it. I mean I'm seeing it a bit more on YouTube. You know, there are channels that have faceless channels, aren't they? Which are purely um, developed through AI. Which is crazy when you think about it, but I think like you said, it's the trust factor, isn't it? And we are, you know, very hard to please businesses when we're partnering with our cash. Cool. Last bit of advice then from yourself, Abiz. Um, what is your last or one piece of advice? So anybody who's thinking about starting uh, B2B influencer marketing, uh, what would that be?

Vahbiz Cooper: Don't be afraid to like experiment, uh, if it, if the campaign goes wrong, it's fine. I mean you don't have to, like, really panic. It's not the end of the world. But just because you're afraid that it'll go bad or, oh, my God, like, this is not going to work out at all. Don't be afraid to experiment. And some of the campaigns that, when we were, like, discussing, uh, they sounded, like, really ridiculous. Like, oh, my God, is this person really gonna like this gift? You know, is this the kind of swag we should send? Um, and it turned out to be absolutely amazing. So, like, keep experimenting because sometimes what you think is gonna work out 100% wouldn't, and sometimes where you. You're, like, a little dicey. It's like, I don't even know. It's gonna, like, perform really, really, really well. Uh, so, yeah, just don't be afraid. Uh, and have fun. Like, no matter what you do, whether it's influencer marketing or not, just have fun in what you're doing. Don't be like, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. Don't be afraid. Uh, and speak to more people. Uh, you know, learn things. And you can ask a lot of questions. Uh, usually the. We feel shy to ask questions. Uh, we feel like, oh, like, would that be a dumb question or am I being too pushy? But just ask it regardless. Like, you would rather look stupid for that particular moment than when you're, like, speaking to, let's say, like, a leader or somebody. And you wouldn't know. So, yeah, ask questions and just have fun with what you're doing.

Matt Dodgson: I think that's some good advice. Test, test, experiment. Have fun. Yeah, it all sounds good to me. So, Viz, thank you very much for giving up your time today. It's been fascinating talking to. For anybody that's got any questions on this, what's the best way of them reaching out to you?

Vahbiz Cooper: You can reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm mostly super active.

Matt Dodgson: Awesome. You're a superstar. Thank you very much.

Vahbiz Cooper: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.