Be Bold: How an Unplanned Life Unlocks Your Potential with Kevin Michael Kirwan

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Speaker B: us are taught to follow the plan, stay on course, and measure success by how closely life matches what we expected. But some of the most meaningful parts of our lives begin when the plan changes. An unexpected opportunity, a new direction, a relationship, or even an idea we almost dismiss could lead us somewhere we never imagined. The challenge is learning to loosen our grip on control, trust ourselves, and remain open to what is unfolding. Today's conversation is about self determination, creative courage, and the freedom to live beyond other people's expectations. It's also about recognizing that purpose does not always arrive before the journey begins. Sometimes we have to let life surprise us before we understand where it has been leading. Enjoy the show. Welcome to make it a great one with Dr. Dan. This show is all about bringing hope, connection, awareness and wisdom through meaningful conversations that inspire us to be better versions of ourselves and have a positive impact on humanity. This is your space to pause, reflect, and reconnect with who you are, what you care about, and who you want to be. We have this moment, this day, in this life. Let's make it a great one. Today I am speaking with Kevin Kirwan. Kevin is a writer, author of literary and genre fiction. He holds an MA in Creative Writing from John Hopkins University and has a new novel, the Existential Awakening of One Particular Mexican Girl, which is a debut novel. In addition to his literary work, Kevin has spent the bulk of his life serving as mentor teacher in several wildly divergent fields. Everything from delivering pizzas to flying helicopters. He currently resides in California. Kevin, welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Thank you. Appreciate it.

Speaker B: Um, okay, as I am learning about you here, I'm going to summarize. Here's a summary of where I want to start, which is it seems like you have backed your way into purpose. Like whether you are writing, whether you are working, um, whether you are exploring. It seems like you set out to do something and it's only where it leads you is when you find yourself in this purposeful situation, whether it is father, whether it is husband, whether it is writer, and even in this, your debut novel of the meaning that came from it.

Speaker C: Yeah I think that's, I think that's spot on. It's a good description of my writing style as well. When I sit down to write, I don't typically have anything planned out in advance. I'm um, what's called a pantser. I, I just start with the kernel of an idea and see where it takes me. And that's pretty much the way life has gone. Like you said, I'll start down a certain path and it leads me to wherever it does and then I air off in another direction. So I like the unexpected. I like that idea that life can surprise you if you let it and you just have to get out of the way.

Speaker B: Have you always been like that?

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, um, you know, I think I, I became more like that probably in my early 30s. I was a little uptight and a little bit, um, um, trying to determine my purpose up to that point. And when you are doing that and it's again to draw the parallel with writing, when you're trying to drive the boat instead of waiting to see where it's going to take you, a lot of times you can get in your own way. That's true of just about anything in life. I used to play a lot of golf and you really have to swing that golf club freely and without letting your brain get in the way. If you try to walk your throats through every step of just about anything in life, um, it'll bind you up. So you have to let yourself go and just follow along and take, take whatever path comes to you.

Speaker B: Growing up, um, in a military family, you're moving around a lot. And also when I, when I think about the juxtaposition or the paradox of like, go with the flow come whatever comes to you. And then what we know of military, um, sort of routines, how, you know, how did, how did that impact you?

Speaker C: It was interesting when I look back on it, my parents for being in the military. My dad was spit and polish, career military man. He was in the military for 35 years, um, and loved it. Uh, but he was a pretty free wheel and free spirited liberal kind of a dude outside of that. And as was my mother growing up. There was always music in the house. So it wasn't that typical uptight military environment with an authoritative figure at the head of the household kind of thing. It was, it was much more wide open. There was a, a partnership between my parents and it was, um, you don't realize it as a kid, you just think that's the way life is. But looking back on it it was a really healthy environment. And even the moving around, which as a kid you hate, that you're leaving all your friends after three or four years and you're going to the next place and then the next place and then the next place. But that really builds character. And, uh, you learn a lot about life without realizing that you're doing it. As you go through all those changes and you adapt to your new situations. Uh, and again, it goes back to being surprised by whatever comes along. And we ended up, which is how I ended up in California, where I'm back now, but we ended up living in California at the end of that. And that was at a period where in the military they were finally allowing people to settle down. And once you had a little bit of rank, you could stay in one place and just keep getting extended, which my dad was able to do. So we probably did that moving around for the first 10 or 12 years of my life. And then we settled in.

Speaker B: Possibilities, surprises. Um, you tried out several things. Um, band, guitar, which you were playing when we got on. So music is still a part of your life. And, uh, you had some pretty interesting jobs. Uh, I think pizza. Delivered pizza for a day. I lasted three weeks. Um, and I find, like, we find out what we want to do by all the things that we experience that we don't want to do. I think is one is one way of getting there. And you found your way into a helicopter. Uh, how did that, uh, come about?

Speaker C: I did grow up in a military family, although my dad wasn't a pilot. He was in the Air Force. And so I was always around the Air Force bases and was fascinated with airplanes and wanted to be a military pilot, but my eyesight wasn't up to snuff. And these days they can probably fix that with Lasik and get you through, but they couldn't do it when I was a kid. So, um, I started flying helic, or airplanes rather, in my mid-20s just because I always wanted to fly. Uh, and then realized I didn't want to be a professional airplane pilot because I'm a bit of a homebody. I've got a bunch of pets and kids and I don't want to be away from everybody. I wanted to come home to my own bed every night. And helicopter pilots do that. You don't fly that far in a helicopter and typically for most jobs you're coming home every night. And, uh, it just looked like fun. So I got into the helicopter thing and it is an absolute blast. It's as much fun as it looks.

Speaker B: But it ended.

Speaker C: Yeah, I did that, uh, and ended up owning my own company and had several helicopters and an airplane out of the Van Nuys airport company called Jet Boy Helicopters. And, um, and then that airport went through a change right around the time my life was going through a change. And all the big corporate operators were coming in and driving the smaller operators out, like myself. And that became a corporate jet airport. And so all the little guys, especially the helicopters, which are not welcome on the ramps because of the downwash and the damage it can cause, we couldn't find a home, really. I could have probably found someplace. But right about that time, my son was being born and, um, my life was going through some career changes outside of the flying thing. And then it just became time it was for me to walk away from flying. So, um, that. That kind of came to a close at that point.

Speaker B: You said you. I've. I've heard you say you became a writer because your dad was a reader. Just to tie this into, you know, where you came from and where you ended up going.

Speaker C: Oh, I love that. I love that my dad passed a few years ago, and you don't realize sometimes what that relationship really means until it's gone. And so I, I treasure that thought of my dad, who was an avid reader, as was my mom. And from a very young age, my dad would read. He kind of got a feel for what I liked. And he liked historical fiction, and I liked historical fiction. And so he would read these books, which were certainly not age appropriate, but they were historically accurate, fictional accounts of battles and whatever. The lion of Ireland by Morgan Llewellyn, a fantastic book. That was one he gave me. And he, uh, would feed those books to me just one after the other after the other. And so I was an avid reader. These big thick books from the time I was probably 7 or 8 years old. Uh, and that shapes your writing voice. And to do it from such a young age like that is, um, it's just invaluable. All that stuff that you take in along the way before you start writing, it absolutely, um, molds and impacts your writing voice when it does come about later. Not just the content, it expands your vocabulary, it expands your worldview. Um, you're learning the technique of writing, all the different techniques that different writers use, just how they put their words on the page and, uh, and everybody's a little bit different. And all of that gets synthesized through you later on. It becomes your writing voice. So the fact that my dad did that with me was I already said it, but it was invaluable. It absolutely changed the way my brain works.

Speaker B: When you think of, so possibilities and how anything's possible. And, um, we'll get into a little bit of quantum physics in terms of how you. How you brought that in or found yourself bringing it in. And so we think of timelines and, you know, time as relative. And so here you are, you have this business, you decide to go in a different direction, and you go back to school, you go back, you go back to get your B.A. um, you end up at Hopkins University. Ultimately, um, what was that process like? And not that you strike me as someone who has a lot of trepidation or doubt or fear. I'm just going to make an assumption there that could be totally wrong. Like, these are big things to do at times of life where not necessarily everyone's making a change like that.

Speaker C: Yeah, I'm never cowed by that sort of thing. I go in at full speed. Um, and I'm not intimidated, really, by anything. So, um, I always felt a little less than because I didn't have a college degree. I knew I was a bright guy and I was well read, and I, you know, I read the news all the time. I was up to date on current events. And I always felt I could hold my own in a conversation with somebody who was a little bit more intellectual or better educated. But I always felt a little bit less than. So as things were tailing, um, off with the helicopter business and everything in my 50s and I didn't have a college education, I said, I'm going to go back to school and get a degree in something I know I can make a living at, because I want to leave Los Angeles. Where can I go to get it? And what job could I do that you can do just about anywhere? Well, I could be a school teacher. All right, I'm going to go back to school and get my bachelor's degree in education. And so I did that and cranked through that, and I wasn't even thinking about a master's degree. And right towards the end of that program, the college I was at, which was Cal State Sacramento, started sending me, hey, why don't you get a master's? Now you're finishing up your bachelor's. And I went, oh, a master's. That's interesting. Maybe I'll do that as well. And I started looking at programs all over the country. And Johns Hopkins had a writing program that looked great. And, uh, and so I jumped into that and, and that took me Two years plus another six, another semester for my, for my thesis. And uh, that was a life changer. Yeah. So I, again I, I didn't even think about that degree until I went and got it. I was already somewhat of a writer, but that took me in that direction. And this novel came straight out of that. This novel started out in that program as a little short slice of life story for a workshop that I did. And then it, it turned into this.

Speaker B: How, how did the master's experience in education change you?

Speaker C: You know, it changed the way I look at myself. I, I don't know. I mean, there's nothing wrong with being proud of an accomplishment. I'm a little self conscious about that. But I remember my dad going back to school probably in his 30s, because in his career in the Air Force to get the next levels of promotion, they wanted to see degrees. He was an nco, he wasn't an officer, so he didn't have a college degree yet. But he realized to better himself and to reach the next level, he was going to have to do that. And you don't appreciate that. Maybe as a kid watching your dad do that, you don't understand really the importance of that or how much dedication it took or how proud you should be of your father for that. But he did that and he went back to school and he got his bachelor and he got two master's degrees. Um, and looking back, I'm super proud of him. I wish I would have told him that when I had the chance because now that I've done it, I know how that makes you feel and the motivation behind it. So that was, that changed the way I see myself to some extent. Um, I was already a self confident guy, but that kind of bolsters your self confidence to be able to say you're a college graduate. To me that's a big deal. And I see the attacks on higher education that are going on right now and I see the problems that the universities are having. Um, and that's heartbreaking to me. We need um, to promote higher education and I'm proud to do that. And my kids know it's expected of them. You know, they can live their own life and if they don't want to go, go to school, they don't have to. But that's something I really want for my kids as well.

Speaker B: Mhm. You know, one door, it's, it's, it seems like you open a door, you, you open a door, get invited to walk in in whichever way the circumstances and you decide to take It. And this is a wonderful, uh, I think metaphor and um, reality or multiple realities that we all see with sliding doors. It's like we can't always plan. Why do you think we humans like to plan so much? You know, like, because, I mean, it gives us a sense of like, comfort, reduced anxiety. But the idea is if we plan, we also miss so many other things that could have come our way. And you're a perfect example of this. You probably never thought you'd write a book, so you have to write an essay for the cl. Like just one thing leads to another.

Speaker C: I don't know why people. I think there's a comfort in having everything planned out for you and there's a certain mindset that wants that comfort and doesn't want to be challenged. Um, it's obviously not my mindset and probably not yours, but I think there's a significant portion of the population that wants to be told how to think. And uh, there's a dark side to that and we're kind of seeing that play out a little bit right now. But um, yeah, I'm the opposite of that. I don't want my life planned out. I want to be surprised. I want to take those unexpected deviations when they come along. And there's a lot of that in the book, uh, that I wrote where I put two, two young people out on the road together on this old motorcycle, um, and just various random events lead them in one direction or the other and there's enlightenment along that path. And I think that's a good metaphor for life itself. You've got to go down and you can't be afraid to hair off in this even though you're going over here. Hey, if that looks interesting, let's head over here and see what's going on over there. We'll get there eventually if we really want to, are meant to or need to. But in the meantime, if you don't head off in these other directions along the way, you miss so much.

Speaker B: Gosh, there's two places I want to go here. Uh, because you just took to the book and to um, ah, a book about a Mexican, ah, girl, as you said, and your wife happens to be a Mexican girl. So I guess I'm just going to see where this goes. Okay, which is, um, said you never necessarily, you didn't necessarily want to um, necessarily get married. You found yourself married, necessarily never necessarily wanted to be a father. You ended up with a boy and a girl and all of those things like transformed you and impacted your ways and that you couldn't have anticipated. And those led to, uh, where you are now and what's important to you. And as we get into the book here, the idea that you didn't even set out to write a book or this book, and yet, if I'm quoting you correctly, it's not that these, these characters are about you and your family, but you are in every space. And I think it was every space and every letter, uh, on the page. I know I butchered that a little bit. And so that's it.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's the gist of it. Yeah. You know, so much comes out of your subconscious when you write, and especially if you can get out of your own way. And that's the key for me anyway, to writing is to allow it to come out with almost no self editing onto the page. You have to go back and tweak some of that later. But a lot of times that's the best stuff that you get. Um, and you don't realize in the moment where all that's coming from. And it's not until you get past that whole thing and look back on it and go back and reread the stuff you've written and you start to go, oh, I see. You know, I see where that came from. So this is not the story of my family. You know, this is. This is not, um. I don't know anybody like Sarah, who's the protagonist in this novel. Initially, the character of Sam was sort of supposed to be me, but he's not me. Um, I was a kid growing up in the 70s. Like, I was. Was what I was looking for, and he certainly is that. But I'm. I, um, wish I was Sam. He's a very admirable young man. I was not that mature at his age, that's for sure. Um, but I want it to be. But I can look back as I look through this novel. I see my family, I see my family now. I see my family growing up. I, uh, see so much, uh, so many things that are drawn from all of the other authors that I've read throughout my life. I can look back and, and see all of that. So, yeah, that hindsight that you get when you go back and examine something like this after the fact is interesting because it's not there in the moment. You're not thinking about that in the moment. I wasn't consciously thinking, oh, I want to write this so that it's a, you know, homage to my father or because this is reflective of my relationship with my wife. There was none of that, none of that conscious effort.

Speaker B: It's such a fascinating process because again, back to, uh, planning, when it comes to the arts or, um, you know, I'm going to say business. Like most of the time it's like, okay, here's what we're setting out to do right here. Sorry, here's our business plan. Here's this, um, here's this project plan. And yet for those of us who sit in stillness and find that an important way to connect with something that, um, might be beyond us or something that comes through us, it's a completely different process. And yet for you to. You're talking about bringing that process or using that process in your craft, which is. I'm going to allow myself, these are my words, to be a vessel about what comes through. And I'm not going to filter. I'm going to take my, like that, that, that, um, that editor, that super ego, that thing that is like the critic, and I'm going to put it away and I'm just going to let the funnel come through me and I am going to see what unfolds and then look back on it and fill it in once I already have it. And I, I'm thinking for someone like you, it's not. Compared to others, it seems less hard for you to filter because I think you are, uh, blessed and maybe sometimes cursed with living your life with less of a filter in an authentic way. Whereas for many, and you must know some of these people or have some colleagues, it's like it's really hard for them to turn off that critiquing brain or that perfectionistic brain or that this is how it's supposed to be brained, to let something come through.

Speaker C: And I have both aspects of that in my personality. I'm a very, uh, a type controlling personality in many ways. I like to determine my environment. And you know, I'm very. If something has to be done, it's getting done right now. There's no procrastination. And I'm a very focused, um, goal, ah, driven person in one sense, but in the other sense, yeah, I can completely get, and have to get out of my way in order to write. Um, I cannot write with an outline. I cannot sit down ahead of time and think about what the story is going to be. My brain won't work that way. It won't stay within a framework. And if I try to do that, I just go, I shut down. I get blocked. So, um, when it comes to writing or playing the guitar or any creative Kind of a thing. I have to work from instinct entirely, completely. I cannot think it through ahead of time. So as a result, as I'm writing, as I'm sitting and writing, I'm oftentimes stunned by the things that come out. I haven't thought about them. I'm not trying to put that on the page. And suddenly there it is. And there's a point in the book, um, maybe a third of the way in or so where we're spending some time, we go back in time, we're spending some time with this girl, Sarah's mother, and she has this out of body metaphysical experience. When that came out of nowhere, that was never. I had not thought of anything like that. I wasn't trying to write a book with magical realism or anything fantastic in it. This was just a character, uh, study of this girl Sarah. And suddenly here's this metaphysical awakening going on with her mother. And as I, as that came out on the page, I shied away from it. And I was going to say, no, that's not where this book is going. And I backed up. And I often found that's the best ideas are the ones that hit you like that and you just got to put them out there. And that took the book in an entirely different direction. Had I thought it through ahead of time, I would have never done that. That was not the book I was writing. So the best stuff that comes out on the page is always that stuff that surprises you. And that stuff would never make it onto the page if I preplanned. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

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Speaker B: Did you have some, um, some beliefs or interest in um, in physics and metaphysics and Any of that or.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, you did. So that was part of how you thought.

Speaker C: Just in the sense that I'm, uh, a, uh. As I have gone through my reading journey and I've, you know, everybody goes through their periods. I did my Stephen King thing. I liked him a lot. You know, I did all of this historical fiction with my dad, but then I did a lot of sci fi, fantasy kind of stuff. And they touch on all that kind of. It's all, all kinds of. And, and especially the good writers can present science in a way, even if it's, even if they're making it up on the spot, that that is engaging and seems believable, um, and can take something that is impossible and seemingly preposterous and make it completely believable and take you along on that journey with them. And I loved that stuff. So I was interested in, in the physics and the metaphysics. Um, and I actually, there's a. Although this is not a religious novel and I shy away from that, I don't want people to get the wrong idea. There is that component where this girl, Sarah, who's on this journey of, um, enlightenment, she is looking in every place she can to fill out her idea of what's going on. She's hearing this voice that's her mother. She believes it's her mother who died giving birth to her. So she's never actually heard her mother's voice. Now she thinks her mother's reaching out to the pat from the past and she's trying to figure out how that's possible. Um, and so of course she's going to look in every place she can for those answers. And one of them is she does look at religion. And so I was able to draw on my experiences when I was late, in my late teens where I went through a religious thing and I had a girlfriend whose father was a Pentecostal preacher. And so I went to the Pentecostal, which is the Holy Rollers and the, you know, fire and brimstone people literally rolling on the, uh, in the, in the aisles. And, and that was super fun and, and crazy for somebody at my age to experience that back then. So that's always stuck with me. I was able to get all that came out in the novel. They, they end up in a Pentecostal church at one point. So, um, yeah, I, I think, I think there's the metaphysical aspect of this, which is where it ultimately goes and what we ultimately explore, but they also look at the spirituality side so that she. Sarah's looking for Answers. And she's looking for every place she can to get those answers. And a lot of that was drawn from either stuff I've read or just a general interest that I have or experiences like the one I just mentioned.

Speaker B: Did your beliefs about religion, about time and space, did it change at all from your experience of writing this book? Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah, it did. I. You know, I don't believe. I'm not a believer. Um, and I find the idea of a higher power focused on this tiny, little, insignificant planet to be kind of preposterous. But at the same time, I have a soft spot for it and for people who truly believe. Um, and a certain kind of believer kind of appeals to me. That person who has their own belief and is willing to kind of keep it within themselves and try to. Trying to foist it on others. I. I do have a soft spot for. For folks who have a good heart and who believe in a higher power. And I think that comes through in the novel. I don't give short shrift to the religious figures and the people that we see in here. Um, Sarah spends time with a couple of nuns from this convent that's adjacent to the ranch where she lives. And those are fun scenes. They spend about a week or so with this family that ministers at a Pentecostal church. And I think I give all those people their due and present them as, well, rounded, likable, lovable characters. Um, and no pass judgment on anybody. I just kind of put it out there. This is what it is. So I do have a little bit of a soft spot for spirituality in that sense. Um, and probably more of a belief, if you were to look at my actual belief systems, that if there is anything that comes before and after that, it's a little more of what ends up getting described in the metaphysical sense. That maybe there's some sort of a. A power force or a life force or something surging throughout the universe that we're all drawn from and go back to. That seems a little more elegant and believable to me.

Speaker B: What about love and love transcending time?

Speaker C: I always believed when I was younger I'm a romantic and, uh, I'll cry at a. At a. At a love story in a heartbeat. And I've always believed that, um, that there was one person, one being, one life force that we're all drawn to, that there is a soul mate, and that you come back time and time again, uh, to that person as you go through the various iterations of your existence. And I love that concept and uh, that is certainly something that gets explored in this novel. And so I don't know. I. You know, I go back and forth between stating a belief on something like that, but I certainly won't. I wish that were the case. And I think. I don't know. You know, I. I fell in love when I was in my mid-40s with a Mexican girl, and she was fabulous. And then we, uh, went our separate ways. Had we got our kids, but went our separate ways. And then we came back together, um, about six or seven months ago, we got back together, got married again. I moved back to California from Vermont to be with her. Uh, and I do think she's the one. There's that thing that drew me back to her. I think. I think over and over again through time, maybe we are drawn back to that other half, if you will. Uh, it's a great concept. So

Speaker B: I agree. It's a great concept. Um, and I think where people. I think there's a. Yes, and like that. Um, you know, the idea of a soulmate, but yet there's not just one. Right. Like, there's. Like, there's not just one person in the entire universe who is for you, but there are people who are for you. And there is this transcendence of time and space and souls. Um, and we're drawn to some people in ways that we are not drawn to other people. Right. When we think from an energetic perspective,

Speaker C: there's that chemistry thing. I mean, and you do have it with some people on and on various levels. It doesn't have to be a romantic relationship. You're drawn to certain people and certain kinds of relationships. And, um, so maybe if there is a life force out there, and this is something I do touch on in the novel, maybe it doesn't always stay as one tidy little entity moving through time. Maybe you're just part of a greater stream of energy. And so, you know, maybe you're made up of a lot of different streams, a lot of different pieces of that. So that, you know, that thing that you are drawn to exists in a lot of different people. Uh, it's a good thing to play around with. It's a good thing to think about.

Speaker B: So you didn't set out to have kids. You didn't really think about it, but you did. It happened. Um, they've changed you. Uh, you talk about how they change. I mean, you talk about that they changed you. I'm curious if you can share how these relationships with your son or your daughter have changed you forever.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, My answer is probably going to be kind of trite because I think it changed me in the way it changes most people. When I was younger, I thought I would have kids. I don't know that I ever thought, do I want kids? I just thought growing up, well, I'll get married and I'll have kids. Everybody does that. Um, and then I did get married when I was about 30 and to a wonderful young lady and she wanted kids and I thought I did. And then I realized I didn't and we got divorced because of that. And that was heartbreaking because I loved her. She was a really cool, cool person. And I just wanted to kind of do that. What I wanted to do. I wanted to fly airplanes and helicopters and travel around Europe. And I was really focused on myself. And um, and I did a lot of that stuff for years before I met my wife. And I was going through, I guess, a period in my time in my life where I was looking for something else because that self centered life I'd been living wasn't particularly fulfilling. And I found something in her and we had our daughter and it was a game changer. I mean it absolutely altered who I was as a human being because now I, I could care less what I was doing for myself. The greatest joy I got was seeing her happy. And so yes, my daughter was spoiled absolutely. And uh, but in a good way. And she was a good kid and it didn't go to her head. And she's still wonderful young lady. She's 18 now. Um, so that. Yeah. What changes, I think most people and what changed me is that idea that there's something greater than myself and I need to be in service to that. And that kids and my wife, um, and as kids who need you much more than a spouse does, they, they need all of that guidance and they need you to be there for everything. And you're answering all their questions and doing all the things you do for kids and uh, maybe for some people that's not as fulfilling as it is for others, but that absolutely altered who I was as a person and how I see the world.

Speaker B: As you look back upon your, the, the times in your life where you were focused on your own experiences, your own goals, uh, your own aspirations. How do you see that version of yourself now? Through these eyes?

Speaker C: I love it. You know what? I wasn't ready to have kids and I didn't have kids. And that's a healthy thing. Don't have kids if you're not ready. If you need to get that out of your system, get it out of your system. That, that, that molded who I am now. And I think in a good way, I did good things. Uh, I was nice to people. I, you know, I, although it was somewhat of a self centered life, I still found ways to do things for others and for friends and whatnot. I wasn't a completely, um, you know, egotistical jerk, uh, during that period. And it did, you know, I did a lot of that stuff and I got it out of my system and I, and I found out who I was by trying all of these different things. Uh, so I don't. Yeah, that wasn't necessarily a bad. I thought about that. I thought about, should I have had kids younger? Should I have stayed with that first woman I was with who wanted kids and I was going to have kids with her? What would my life be like now if I had done that? And I wonder if I would look back and think, yeah, this is great. But I never got to do all this other stuff I wanted to do with my life. I, you know, I don't know. You don't know. You didn't go down that path. And probably not. I probably would have loved those kids in the same way I love the ones I have now. Um, and maybe I would have done all that stuff later in life. Who knows? So I don't regret it. I don't regret what I did. And I do think it, uh, it contributed to who I am as a person. I'm pretty happy with who I m am as a person these days, so. And I think it may be getting all that out of my system gave me a better perspective and put me in a better place to be the father I am. M. For my kids now.

Speaker B: I think back and um, I can't say absolute timelines, but there's a portion of my life where I was doing what people do. And you go through the steps and the motions and whether it's school and job and you. That whole thing. And then at some point it gets more, I think, thoughtful, purposeful, intentional. Like there's almost this, like, waking up of how things work and choices. Um, and I'm not necessarily comparing us in that way. I'm just wondering, was there a time where you were just sort of being led versus when you actually more purposely allowed yourself to go? You know, we're more directed about it.

Speaker C: Well, I think I matured late. I, I think I was just immature when I was young. And in that sense, um, you are more likely to be led by the wrong things. Maybe in your life and the impulses and things. And you're more likely to listen to people you shouldn't listen to. You don't have that life experience. You haven't developed that self confidence. And some people develop it younger and it's a much, uh, to me, what you're describing to me is maturity. And everybody matures at their own rate and, and some people are there. I watch some, some people who've lived their life in the spotlight, actors and athletes and stuff, sometimes speaking, and they seem so mature. I'm like, oh my God, this kid's 21 years old and he's talking. Not all of them, of course, but some of them. It really strikes me how together they have it and, and I think it's maybe the life that they've lived. And uh, you know, part of that's probably genetic as well. But so I think I just matured a little bit later and, and as that maturity kind of um, took hold Maybe in my 30s, mid-30s or so, that's when I really can look back and see the change starting to happen and see me becoming more purposeful about career and uh, and being a little bit more discriminating in my relationships and, and that sort of thing. And that all culminated, not for me, until I was in my 40s. Not that I wasn't mature until then, but it took that long for me to reach a place where I kind of reached my uh, not my final form, but maybe uh, that level of maturity that some people have at 26 or 27 took me another 10 or 15 years.

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Speaker B: You uh, know what? I think it's really important. I mean several things you're saying are important. One of them is the, the theme of there aren't these timelines. I mean these, these um, developmental milestones. These, the developmental timelines that need to be, need to be hit. And I find it's courageous to, and painful to be with the woman you love in your 30s and decide, you know, I don't, I'm not ready for this right now. And ultimately, you know, contribute to that relationship ending. Because you felt, even though I'm sure a lot of people you knew are having kids, that wasn't for you. And you found your way, and you found your way in a way that you seem to be pretty pleased about, um, how things have all unfolded and for like, for all of us is to remember, you know, we have all these societal timelines, this is, these messages, but it really comes down to us listening to ourselves and going within to decide what is best for this individual person in this context, in this situation, not what everyone else thinks that you should be doing.

Speaker C: You just touched on, um, probably the central. If I had to define my character and what I've learned in life and the one thing more than anything else that I try to pass on to my kids, which is hard because of peer pressure, is you, ah, have one life, it's your life. Do not let anyone else live it for you. Don't live your life according to the expectations of others. If they don't like the music you listen to, that's their problem. If they don't like the way you dress, the things you believe in, if they don't like the food that you eat, if they don't like the way your hair looks, it does not matter. Be who you want to be, who you're proud of being. Be the person that you want to be. You said it perfectly. Be who you are on the inside and don't let other people mold you into their idea of who you should be. Once you do that, you've given up the most precious thing you have, which is that self determination. Uh, I stress that over and over and over and over to my kids, especially when I see peer pressure and I see them doing things, um, and I can tell why they're doing it. And I try to tell them, no, no, you do like this. I know your friends don't like it, but that doesn't. So determining who you are and getting inside yourself and really being able to do that, and maybe that's what maturity is. And some people can do that earlier than others. I really never didn't have, I didn't have too much of a problem with that part of it past my teen years. Um, but I'm absolutely adamant in that, in not trying to be a conformist. I don't want to be like everybody else and I don't want to believe and think and do all the things everybody thinks I do I'm going to be who I am, and if you dig it, great. If not, that's cool too.

Speaker B: I like that a lot. What, um, I had been talking to my wife about, uh, fairly recently is instead of this idea that, um, I might do something to let people down or not fulfill some expectation that they have of me, I'm going to surprise them. You made me think of that, right? Like, I'm going to surprise them and do something a little different. And it's a different way for those of us who do have heavier, come with heavier loads of obligation, responsibility. And I'm not putting this on a pedestal. I'm saying, like, it's a thing that a lot of people carry. It's hard to not live up to whatever the expectation is or the obligation is or what people think you should do. So surprise them. Everyone surprise them and do something different. I mean, Kevin, seems like you, you actually, it's. It's a cornerstone to your. Is to, I think, surprise yourself as much as to surprise others.

Speaker C: To allow life. You have to allow life to surprise you. It's not a purposeful thing other than the fact that you can't, like you said, live your life according to the expectations of others. But, you know, take that right turn when you're supposed to go left sometimes, you know, see what's going to happen down here kind of thing. And I love, I love not having a plan every time I go out to do something and just kind of winging it and seeing what happens. And sometimes it's a disaster. M. And sometimes that's valuable too. But, yeah, let life surprise you and, and don't worry so much about what other people think. And, um. And I, you know, yeah, I. I think that just to circle back around in my book a little bit, um, I would never have sat down to write this novel. This. I would never. I have another novel which is a very standard, straight ahead mystery, thriller genre type novel. That's a novel that I wrote with a purpose in mind. You know, okay, this is a commercial novel. It's going to be the first of a series. So I want to make a character that everybody's going to. I really thought that one through. And it's a good novel. It's a really good novel. I would never. If I was trying to sell books, I would never have written this novel, you know. No, this is not a mass appeal type of a novel. It's on a small press and it's very eclectic in the way it's written. It's a collection of link stories as opposed to a conventional throughline narrative. Um, it's told from multiple different POVs. There's not one POV throughout. So you're bouncing around from chapter to chapter in terms of who's telling the story. Um, there's so much about this novel that is unconventional, is probably not going to hit with the mass audience. I don't know that I would have ever done that. If I'd sat down to map out a novel the way I did my first one, I would have never arrived in this place. And I'm so happy I didn't do that. I'm so happy I just set out and said, I want to see what happens here.

Speaker B: Mhm. Let's see what happens. Um, here's a quote from you. Life will only surprise you if you allow it. And I believe you just said that.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's a, that's something to live your life by that and uh, never, uh, quench the spark of inspiration. I said that in an essay I wrote recently and I have found. I mentioned this a little bit earlier when I talked about the fact that that whole metaphysical thing kind of came out of nowhere when I was writing one day and spilled out onto the page. Um, and I almost took it back out of the novel on the spot because I didn't think that was the book I was writing. And then I went, well, wait a second, why isn't that the book I'm writing? I'm going to get out of the way and see where this goes. Um, you have to allow life to surprise you. And you can't edit those moments out of your life that you see coming or don't see coming. Uh, when something unexpected starts to happen, rather than turning away from it, I think you have to embrace it. Embrace the good and the bad. Emotional. Um, yeah, I think you have to allow life to surprise you. If you really want to have an interview, if you want to look back later in life and say, man, I loved my life, I really did. And the life you lived was a very regimented, pre planned one. I don't know that you're going to have that experience. Well, you know, if you make it to 80 or 90 and you're on your deathbed looking back, I'd rather look back and see all the crazy stuff that happened and say, yeah, that was a good life.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think with that, you know, a lot of conversations that I've had, uh, is how we can, we can put aside the fear, we can put aside the worry, we can put Aside the self doubt because those are all the things that often keep us in this safe zone or this um, scared zone or this um, limited zone. Uh, as opposed to, as what, ah, Gay Hendricks talks about our zone of genius. Like going for it, like full, like just go for it. And um. God, every human has so much unique potential.

Speaker C: Like, and you're right, so many people are afraid of the consequences of their actions or afraid of what others will think of them if they do a certain thing. And, and to some extent in our society you have to conform. That's just if you're going to live in this society, there are certain things that you, you do have to do. But uh, outside of that there's so much possibility that I think a lot of people get so caught up. You were just talking about this in the expectations and how they should do this or that or you know, if I make this decision, what are people going to think about me? And if I do this and fail, you know, what are people going to think about that? And you have to leave that room for failure too. You always have to leave that room for failure. You just never know. I wrote a, I wrote an essay recently about Sonny Rollins. Sadly passed about six weeks ago. Famous jazz sex player, uh, saxophone, uh, Colossus they called him. Just, just a. From the bebop era back in the 40s and the 50s. And um, he passed and I got really into reading about him and I um, was just so taken by the things that he talked about when he was playing the unexpected and, and how he devoted his life to. And his playing to not thinking things through ahead of time. He talked about when he was playing. His mind was an absolute blank. It was another force flowing through him. What a great way to live your life, you know, um, and in all the great places that it took him. So I think you got to put aside those, that fear of what others will think. And he had his bad nights, he had his nights when he was up there and it just wasn't happening. And he was hitting the clinkers and. But that was because he was taking chances. So you got to leave that room for failure and pick yourself up when you do go down and get right back in there.

Speaker B: And uh, it was either in that article or I think it was that article that you're referring to. And this, I think this ties it all together as we're winding down, um, metaphysical. And all that we're talking about is. You quoted Basil King, uh, Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.

Speaker C: I love that quote. Oh, God, I love that quote. They use that quote in one of my favorite movies, Almost famous. Um, Francis McDormand says that at one point, and I just gives me chills whenever I hear that quote. That's. That's it. That's it, buddy. That's.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: That's the way to live your life. Yeah.

Speaker B: Be bold and mighty forces will come.

Speaker C: I believe that's true, yes.

Speaker B: Um, well, Kevin, I'm. I'm excited for you. You have this debut novel. You have one that you have completed and are shopping on, and you have a third one that you're like. You're sound like you, uh, the forces have unleashed.

Speaker C: Yeah, I'm writing well right now. I'm writing, um, freely and, uh, prolifically. And that can be a tough place for a writer to be in. So when you're there, you got to take advantage. So, yeah, it's going well.

Speaker B: Tell everyone where to find the existential awakening of one particular Mexican girl.

Speaker C: Sweet. Yeah, you can get that pretty much anywhere. You can buy a book. You can find my novel. Um, and, uh, Amazon's got it. You can get it on Goodreads. You can get it, uh, Barnes and Noble Sellers. So, uh, it's a fun read. It's a pretty quick read. A good beach read. Jordan Summertime. Take that out to the beach with you. You can probably finish it in an afternoon.

Speaker B: Awesome. Wishing you all the best.

Speaker C: Hey, thanks so much for having me, buddy. I enjoyed this.

Speaker B: Kevin embodies authenticity. He is true to himself and has allowed himself to be led to places he did not think he was going to go, but was glad when he got there. Here are five key takeaways from our conversation. Number one. Life can only surprise us when we allow it. When we hold too tightly to the plan, we may miss the people, possibilities, and experiences that are trying to lead us somewhere meaningful. Number two. You have one life. Do not let someone else live it for you. The expectations of family, friends, peers and society can be powerful. But self determination means choosing a life that feels honest and authentic to you. Number three. Purpose often becomes visible in hindsight. Not every meaningful path begins with a clear calling. Sometimes we discover our purpose by following our curiosity and looking back at where the journey has taken us. Number four. Creativity needs room to surprise us. The inner critic. Perfectionism and excessive planning can silence our best ideas. Inspiration often appears when we stop controlling the outcome and allow something unexpected to emerge. A bold life must include the possibility of failure. Taking chances means that things will not always work out. But failure is not evidence that we should have stayed safe. It is evidence that we were willing to fully participate in our own lives. Kevin is inviting us to listen to ourselves, to be ourselves and to live our own life. We are interested in what you think about this episode so please feel free to leave us a comment, rdanpeters on Instagram or reply to any of our social posts. Please share this with anyone and everyone you think will benefit. Thank you for being a part of our amazing community, for subscribing for your 5 star reviews and bringing your people to us. As always, we have this moment, this day and this life. Let's Make It a Great one. This has been a Peters and Rossi pretty production. Make It a Great one with Dr. Dan is produced by Amber Miller. Our engineer is Phil Rossi. Theme music is Uplifting Folk by awesome Music. Artwork by Kelly Dwyer. Follow us on social media at DrDan Peters. For more information, visit DrDampeters.com.

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Speaker C: I'll be back.

Speaker D: Moving in.

Speaker C: Let's get started.

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