The Journey to Net Zero 2 - Capturing Hearts & Minds

Speaker A: Do you have a tough challenge with your supply chain or logistics? Loguru is the intelligent partner that works globally with manufacturers, retailers and logistics businesses. We help our customers define, buy and safely implement solutions across the supply chain. If you want a more sustainable future for your supply chain, visit loguru.co.uk complete end to end satisfaction guaranteed.

Speaker B: Coming up in in this episode, what

Speaker A: I really love about what I do is that people come on the course and they make change. I've had procurement directors of enormous companies come on the course. Go. I made 80 flights last year. I'm not going to do that anymore. And when you get someone saying that, that really, to me is the heart of, um, what you're talking about there.

Speaker B: The Logistics Collective podcast is a series focusing on the sustainable future of the logistics industry. We'll discuss the industry's future challenges and interview thought leaders who can offer solutions. We're commencing our search for the higher level of intelligence needed to make the industry more sustainable and profitable. Here's your host, Malcolm Pope.

Speaker C: Hello and welcome to the podcast from the Logistics Collective. And this is a continuation of our, uh, series on the Journey to Net zero. We got a lot of positive feedback from the last podcast that we did and we're mixing it up slightly for this podcast. We're keeping one key element element, but introducing a new and perfectly formed element to this as well. So without further ado, I'd like to welcome, um, Benoit Laflemme and our new addition, Anne Snelson to this edition of the Logistics Collective. Welcome to you both. Nice to have you here.

Speaker A: Thank you, thank you.

Speaker B: Happy to be here.

Speaker C: So, Benoit, remind our listeners in your wonderful French Canadian way who you are and m, what your background is, please.

Speaker B: So I am Canadian, French Canadian, of course. And uh, I come from the finance and commercial vehicle fleet management space, uh, or vehicle leasing. And I've been a couple of years trying to really be purely in the sustainability space. And I found a home in Better Fleet where I've recently become sales and Partnerships director. And at BetterFleet, we want to be the number one provider of software and services for mission critical fleets with a focus on making them more productive and helping them transition to zero emission vehicles. So I'm really dead where I want it to be and really happy to be as well.

Speaker C: So, Benoit, you are, uh, in the glowing white heat of our transition into more sustainable transportation. Would that be fair?

Speaker B: We could call it that way, yes.

Speaker C: Okay, so that properly introduces you. So it was great talking to you last time. Now, Anne, could we have an introduction from you, please.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Malcolm, thank you for having me here. I'm Anton Nelson. I've worked over 30 years, um, in mostly transportation, so, ah, 20 years in the transport sector. Um, I did actually start out life as a policy researcher for the Automobile association in the 1990s. Um, and my experience there was talking about car sharing, getting motorists on bicycles, uh, out of their cars, road pricing, all those good things. And 30 years on we're still talking about those two. I spent quite a lot of time at Ringo Phone Parking and then a few years ago really decided that I wanted to do something about climate change. Um, I then did Carbon Literacy Project training which I have to say changed my life. Um, completely changed how I thought about sustainability and brought me to the realization that I needed to do something about it. So I retrained as a Carbon Literacy Project trainer. Um, I have set up my own consultancy lead with sustainability. Um, I do a lot of Carbon Literacy Project training but I also work alongside other companies, uh, some in the fleet space, uh, helping them with marketing and communications and of course trying to put a sort of net zero flavor on that too.

Speaker C: Thank you ever so much Anne. Um, again an impressive CV and it sounds like pretty much a career, lifelong interest in terms of how do we do things, uh, with a better conscience in terms of uh, our impact on planet. So I think that's notable. So all interviews need some questions and um, I've got some I want to ask you so don't be nervous. It's hard for me to bite remotely anyway, but I'd tell tend not to bite. First question. Could you both tell me in one sentence why you think sustainability is important and what it means to you?

Speaker B: If I start, I would say for me it's necessity. We need to change the way we do things and we need to all make change to consume less resources and be more efficient with, uh, what we have. Was that one sentence?

Speaker C: Well yes, I, I, I think so. Um, people sometimes have short sentences. People like have sentences that will feel like a life sentence. Uh, many people have said to me, so I think you've done well at that. So Ann, um, do you have a view?

Speaker A: Yes, certainly. I mean I guess because of my background now, I um, think sustainability is the most crucial thing that we should be talking about. Um, and particularly within transport where, um, the UK it's the largest sector, 30% of emissions are from the transport sector. So it is the biggest place that we can do something about that.

Speaker C: 30% of emissions from the transport sector, um, is that taking all transport so it's not just freight transport, it is people transport as well.

Speaker A: It is, but 90% of those 100% emissions are ah, road transport. About 55% is cars and taxis and the rest Is fleet and HDVs.

Speaker C: Interesting. I guess there's always an exploration of um, actually seeing the number of new electric vehicles coming onto the road and seeing how that may well begin to change those percentage as far as CO2 emissions. I mean CO2 is not the only, uh, not the only factor within here, um, for sure, but it's one of the key in terms of climate change. Thinking about this, I mean I'd like to sort of explore something about the risks and benefits around sustainability. So what are some of the benefits business leaders should consider when thinking about sustainability?

Speaker B: I sense the uh, big outcome that can come out of thinking sustainably is getting on a journey to change, on a journey to challenge yourself and try to think about doing things differently. We're starting to see a movement of sharing info, infrastructure investments for example, where those collaborations can lead to really powerful different things that companies can do together. We can see definitely return on investment and profit coming out of doing sustainable things. So if you burn less stuff, you pay less for the stuff you used to burn. So technically there should be business upside as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I would agree really the savings are enormous if people just become a bit more efficient about how they use transport and the journeys that they do. There are a lot of uh, spaces in the fleet market and opportunities to share, uh, journeys to reduce journeys, to make transport, uh, more efficient. So I really see that when I get people on my training, for instance, that they're looking at how can they save some trips. Um, there's also new opportunities for expansion and the green economy is going to be enormous and new opportunities for businesses in terms of what they develop, um, new partnerships, new supply chains, it will radically change how we operate full stop. And yes, there are some threats too, but I really wish that more companies would look at the real opportunities that there are from, uh, looking at decarbonising, looking at saving money and doing more in this space.

Speaker C: Certainly the case, I mean, um, there's a couple of imperatives that will certainly be legislative imperative for businesses to change. That has happened already and will continue to happen and that'll become more of a leverage point. But also there's a business reputation, you know, so not everybody is going to signed on to the sustainability charter. But if we perhaps look at a demographic and I don't know whether any of our gathered experts here have a view, but generally new ideas stay with the young people that are younger, or at least young of mind, and that older generations tend to be more stuck in what they regard to be the right thing to do. And I have respect at both ends of the spectrum. But what that wave of people that perhaps may well be focused on being more sustainable says is this. Your youngest consumers, your youngest customers, are likely to take this very seriously. And that is a growing market, and it is a market with a long lifetime, um, ahead of it. So I think that probably brings me to my, My next question, which is, if we're talking about benefits, we need to talk about risks. So what are some of the risks?

Speaker B: Before I tackle this, Malcolm, I'd like to add that not only do the young generation see fear or a necessity, that there's. There's anxiety, there's frustrations, there's really powerful emotions that, uh, absolutely. If you can harness that emotion and answer to that demand of doing things well, I think there's definitely a huge opportunity, um, in terms of risks, the big risk I see, if we, if we focus on logistics, if we're, uh, talking to, let's say, a C level audience, the big risk I see is the risk of not getting started, uh, where it's going to inevitably end up in a race to do something really quick, probably too late, where you end up with not planning enough, not doing enough trial and error in, with time ahead to correct those errors, uh, and not learning from some of those lessons. And so you end up on the back foot and you end up from. Instead of a, A journey to change, you end up with an imperative that's an emergency situation and you need to react and being reactive. In a business, I've tried it, uh, it's not ideal. You're always better to be proactive on the front foot and that way you get things right.

Speaker C: Very. And Ferrand, what are your risks?

Speaker A: Um, I think, like Benoit, I think that missed opportunities are probably one of the biggest risks. If you don't get on board with this, you do risk getting left behind. If you're not planning ahead for how you're going to decarbonize your fleet, then we are going to reach a point where you cannot get petrol and diesel fuel for your fleet. Um, so really understanding how you will be able to maintain your fleet going forward, um, and starting to plan that now, how are you going to get your drivers to be able to charge their vehicles? Are you going to do it at a depot? Are you going to do it at home and there will be significant additional costs if you get things wrong. So I think getting experts on board to really help and advise and talk you through what your needs are rather than necessarily going to a one size fits all type of solution. Um, another area that I think that we're maybe ah, at risk of damaging opportunities for the future is this constant need to a delivery now. And ah, if you think about how we're going to be doing scope three emissions are going to be much, much much more important. Um, so doing things like uh, reverse logistics returns in many ways offering customers these customers who care about sustainability, offering them the opportunities to have a more sustainable returns policy or not one at all or joining with um, return a vehicle or return um, some goods once a week, um, when you can do multiple pickups. Um, that would be far better from my point of view than necessarily always offering what you see as the best solution. Find out from your consumers, uh, flag it up as sustainability and I think you will get a much better, more appreciative audience than clientele.

Speaker C: I think those are points exceptionally well made. My experience of working with a number of large scale logistics service providers and yes have been dozens that I've worked with during my career and um, I've actually worked for some of them as well. My simple view is that they are cultural chameleons and I think they need to perhaps reshape themselves. By all means be reflective in terms of who you are as a customer but actually it'd be great to see who you really are and who you really want to be. I think some of that also is this, um, I think some progress is being made on sustainability probably more in terms of, let's say it's easier to have a net zero warehouse than it is to have a net zero distribution operation within the. But there are multiple steps that can be made that they can become more um, sustainable. I've noted there is a disconnect on the big databases that says okay, I've maybe got thousands of contracts. Do I actually go searching for the opportunity to be uh, more sustainable between those contracts? Could I put them together? How can I assemble my contracts in a different structure in a different way? What can I go out and search for that will allow me to do things like reduce empty running for example. So these are things that are uh, in the first stage are amazingly good for profitability. And it's always the case. I mean my lesson I started looking at carbon accounting ooze it's much more than a decade ago and for me it is, follow your conscience in terms of that. And I would wonder is that if any large scale logistics service provider really engaged with our customer base and said, you know, on a scale of one to five, one being, um, you know, let's drill, drill, drill baby M&5 being let's actually have a totally sustainable climate, balanced, no more worries about pollution views. So what do your customers desire to be? Would be one question. And the second question then would be, and how much extra are your customers willing to pay in order to achieve this? And what you'll find is probably the slider will be on a 4 or a 5 in terms of what they want and the cost will be on a one or a zero in terms of what they want to pay for it. And that is a really troublesome dichotomy. You know, you've got, on one side you say, well okay, we've got an aspiration, but on the other side we don't want to pay for it. But this is where legislation comes in and mandates moving forward. I mean capturing minds is important. Um, so how important is sustainability, for example in human resources? So thinking about, let's say, how do we educate our staff, how do we motivate them and um, certainly very important for the logistics industry. How do we retain our staff?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. We talked about it a few minutes ago. But 80% of UK adults are Ah, either fairly or very concerned about climate change. Um, and that's according to a DESNO survey, uh, last July. So that's very recent. And yes, you know, there's higher awareness, higher concern amongst younger people it's slightly higher, there's slightly lower, uh, amongst older age groups, but it's really not much. It's still over 75% even amongst the older stage groups. Um, so if you think about that across your employees, uh, uh, it really does give an opportunity, a massive opportunity amongst staff to, as Benoit said, reduce concerns, reduce the mental stress that many people have about this. People want to be doing the right thing. Um, and if they can do that through their workplace, this is the best way that we can achieve net zero, we can reduce emissions. Um, and I really think that engaging everybody, uh, rather than it becoming just uh, say an uh, exercise that your finance or your operations department does once a year, um, it will make you a much better employer, it will help you retain staff. Because people are voting with their feet and moving business because of this. Um, they want to work for companies who are sustainable, who put priorities around reducing emissions. Um, and I see it all the time with My carbon literacy training that I do, um, people want to make those differences, they want to do the right thing. And really educating people about what they can do, giving them that ability to change how the organization works and will pay so many dividends. And yes, it overlaps with all of the things that you said, Malcolm. You know, how do you make your organization more efficient? How do you make deliveries more efficient, how do you make returns more efficient? Um, the people on the ground who manage these operations are the ones who will tell you how to do that and you will get all the benefits out of that from an esg, from a CSR point of view. So it is much, much better to use your existing staff, give them that opportunity to influence how you operate, um, and then reap the benefits.

Speaker C: Well said. Anne Benoit, do you have a view?

Speaker B: I couldn't agree more with Ann, um, because I've done the course, uh, with Anne. Um, actually that's how we, we connected together. Um, so this awareness of what is the right choice is absolutely life changing. So you, you've got ideas or you've got preconceptions, but actually measuring it, understanding it, how do we equip people to be aware enough to make the right decision with the right information? So, uh, that's absolutely critical. So absolutely I agree with you. And um, let's train people so that they're much more aware. The other component, uh, I'd like to add is we talked about this, um, generational difference, um, between our demographics and business. There's so much desire for belonging, longing for having the impression, uh, that the impact you have at work is important, that you have a positive impact. People want to be part of something good and they want to contribute positively to society in their work, through their work. Uh, so I think harnessing that is key. The other aspect, uh, that we all need to think about as well is the bigger sense of sustainability, meaning where the work life is, uh, it's done in a sustainable way where you don't burn out, you don't end up being sick, uh, by, by overworking. I don't like the term work life balance because it's never really balanced. But it's having the right mix of work and life, leaving space for important things in your life, being available for important things at work, and having that mix, the, the right mix that actually allows you to be your best at work and, and deliver the best value for your employer. And the final thing is all about when you're sustainability focused, uh, that creates a change culture, a culture of finding ideas As a team, uh, doing things differently. And I think that's also really quite powerful.

Speaker C: I'd certainly agree, really, with everything that you've said. Um, but I'll add to work, life, balance. Um, my other hate is lifestyle. I just have a life. Yeah. And what I want to be is deemed, uh, as being useful. I want to be challenged, I want to have things that are interesting. Um, I don't necessarily want to accept the status quo. And, um, the simple view is, for anybody out there is that if they've got something that feels uncomfortable, make a change. And that sounds really easy to say, hard to do. The hardest thing that you're ever going to have in your life is when you're getting to the end of it and you're saying, if only. And I think you should live your life with as few if onlys as you possibly can. That's my view. So if you're working somewhere that perhaps, let's say, for example, a sustainability is incredibly important to you, which I think it should be, and you're working for somebody that, you know, doesn't really care. Move, go search, go on a new journey, sustainably. Take the bus, ride a bike.

Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker C: So, thinking about that, what legislation is coming up that businesses really need to know about? So what's on the horizon that you see?

Speaker A: Well, some, of course, is already here, um, and influencing the market quite significantly. Um, the ZERV mandate, the zero electric vehicle mandate, um, has been in since being announced last year. It has been updated within recent weeks as well. Um, so the current government has reconfirmed the ban on sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2030, um, vans from 2035 and HGVs, probably 2040. So that is really impacting particularly manufacturers and suppliers. And, I mean, companies will see that being pushed through. Obviously, the Chinese are, uh, massively flooding the market with all sorts of vehicles, all sorts, buses, you name it, trucks, vans, batteries that are amazing, um, charging speeds that, uh, really so compete with existing petrol and diesel vehicles. Um, so this space is really exciting, but from the point of view also of other legislation, I mean, already the largest companies in the UK and those operating within the EU obviously have to report on emissions every year, annually, have to show what they're doing to reduce their emissions as well. And we expect that to flow down to smaller companies too. There is also the csrd, the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive, um, which is EU legislation. Um, again, some of these are being watered down a little, um, or changing as they see that companies aren't able to cope with it. But anyone that's dealing with a company in Europe, uh, regardless of size, if you're supplying to a European company, you need to start thinking about your emissions. You need to start thinking about how you measure that because towards 2030 everybody is going to have to show what their base footprint is and what they are doing to reduce those emissions.

Speaker B: Uh, in addition to this, uh, if you're in transport using vehicles, there's the Energy Savings Opportunity Scheme or esos that not only forces you to measure but now also to talk about your remediation plan or improvement plan. And absolutely Ann, you're right. The trickle down effect, you might think you're not uh, in scope but actually more and more if you haven't started seeing them coming, uh, is these ESG questionnaires or this requirement to have a sustainable purchase policy or sustainability, uh, overall uh, policy. So more and more you're going to be asked for disclosure because the bigger organizations at the top need to show end to end supply chain transparency and that comes by gathering the current state of things. So if you're really underperforming or you're not doing your homework at one point there's going to be a selection process. Uh, so you'd rather be on the positive side of the selection process where maybe you're not perfect but you're showing a clear intention, you're showing good direction, you're showing a uh, real appetite for doing things better than you are today. There's nothing wrong with admitting that you're not perfect. But just show your homework and be prepared to disclose what you're doing and commit and deliver on your commitment. I think that's, that that would be the big thing I would have to add around legislation if it hasn't hit you yet, it's coming and be prepared.

Speaker C: I think great to have the updates. Um, generally legislation comes, um, we talk about stick and carrot and legislation is quite often a stick. You know, you need to do this, um, are there any carrots out there? So are there any real encouragements that say, well, is there any reliefs in terms of investment? Um, is there evidence for example, and maybe this is a subsequent session that we could research, but is there evidence for example of government uh, making the necessary infrastructure investments in order to be able um, to actually promote and accelerate this? I, I'm curious because the, the stick bit's easy to do. You know, don't, don't do this because we've said so and um, we probably like all legislation, um, it doesn't consult broadly Enough because that's almost an impossible task. So we'll make a semi informed guess in terms of legislation, throw it out there and we'll then listen for the noise and if there's no noise at all, well okay, we'll, yeah, we've got away with that one. But if there's quite uh, a bit of noise then clearly then okay, they're going to have to make some adjustments within that. But in terms of the difficult stuff, which is what infrastructure do we truly need? I mean we've seen the interesting HS2 views and perhaps people don't appreciate, I mean that was vital in a number of views. I mean people say well why can't you put more freight onto rail? Well frankly because the west coast main line is full and we have to build more capacity within that. Now there's a completely different argument as to why it probably takes more to build a single railway line in the UK than it does to build a complete high speed rail network in Spain. That's a different argument entirely. But I'm just wondering in terms of, you know, is there any governmental moves to say well okay, how can we actually enable rather than demand?

Speaker A: I mean there are the incentives for company cars, um, so that's about it uh, at the moment, as far as I'm aware. So and in fact you know the swap to electric vehicles has been. Most of the incentives that were used initially uh, to encourage individuals as well as companies to swap to electric vehicles have been removed. Sadly I think some of that was because those incentives were being used by people who could well afford to buy an electric vehicle. So um, from a taxpayer point of view you can understand why that happens. Um, and the good thing about incentivizing companies to swap to electric is that in two to four years time that fleet will become secondhand vehicles, ah, for consumers. So it will encourage that shift to electrify. But yeah, I think we can always do with more, can't we? And yes, I would love to see, dare I say from a sustainability point of view, rather more freight going by train and um, there doesn't seem to be that desire yet sadly to really build the infrastructure we need. And yeah, I think we could talk for hours Malcolm, about bids, tenders and delivery of projects or not.

Speaker C: No, we certainly could and perhaps we'll give a focus um, to that going forward. And I still keep on banging on about the fact that um, we're a series of thousands of islands in this little North Atlantic archipelago and we basically don't move any uh, intra island freight, it's 0.1% or less by sea. And the reality is that if you're looking at carbon emissions per ton carried ocean freight, whilst it has its issue, I understand, but if you're looking at short sea, it is the most carbon efficient way and actually it's easier to re engine a ship than it is to actually re engine a million trucks, let's put it that way.

Speaker B: I'd say on the maritime side Malcolm, there's maybe a glimmer of hope because I've been studying the research and innovation market over the past couple of months and there's a sizable chunk of investment coming into the maritime sector under the clean Maritime Demonstration competition. It's a series of phases. We're now at round four. Uh, that's one area, for example, where we're trying to position better fleet as an enabler of big number crunching to try and build business models that make sense and tcos that make sense. The other one I think is important to highlight is this year is a year where we're seeing the on the ground results of the Zero Emission Heavy Goods Vehicle and Infrastructure Program, the Z Head program. So if you uh, if you're around logistics, you must have come across one or two LinkedIn posts on that or a few pieces of news. I think yes, it's 200 million. To set up an entire infrastructure network is not that much money. It could be used by a single company, but at least it's a start.

Speaker C: Could I say it's a drop in the ocean and get away with it? Um, yeah. Great to hear. Any progress there? Uh, but the fascinating thing for me is that over 20 years ago I was trialing use of container vessels to do within GB deliveries and the only failure was the cost, uh, was the same. We failed on lead time by a couple of hours. And so lead time was more important than actually sustainability at that time. Shrug my shoulders, you sort of move on. But heaven's sake, what's unique about um, the country that we're in at the moment? It's an island, it's got these great maritime motorways all the way around it and um, heaven's sake, I did the calculation, I think you could build something like 400 reasonably sustainable high speed ferries for the cost of HS2 and you could go and revitalize all of our ports and instead of which you've got this great concrete track that's moving people far too quickly. I mean it's wonderful. They're going to save about 15 minutes going from London to Birmingham, um, don't care. You know, I have to dust Duffdale's plans.

Speaker B: Malcolm.

Speaker C: Um, well, maybe I should. So let me get off my soapbox. Um, so thinking more seriously, what sort of tools are available for fleet led businesses to help transform the business to more sustainable operations?

Speaker B: We keep hearing about the word data. Uh, we went from one extreme of wanting data, uh, not being able to find it, to the other extreme where there's almost too much of it. So some of the tools that are available allow you to make sense of all that big data, uh, mass data around weather, around topography, around your own vehicle movements, around what are the charging opportunities, uh, that could exist in your usual journeys. I've also, uh, heard of an interesting concept of rather than looking at your current vehicle movement to try and see which ones can be electrified, is why don't you don't turn it around and instead look at what are your orders that are coming through and how could you plan differently around an EV or different types of vehicles? So really reinventing the way you work. So, uh, yeah, there are tools out

Speaker C: there that brings into the key question, which is, all right, this has been, um, something that isn't on the horizon. It hasn't arrived yesterday. This is something that has been, it's been at least a couple of decades, uh, in terms of really serious view of it. And I look at every business system out there involved in, within logistics and how damn few of them are actually looking at their algorithms at the core of it and saying, well, okay, we have cost, we have some aspect of quality, um, so that will be delivery on time, collection on time, and don't destroy my product. And I've then got legal compliance. The two missing items in my view are, uh, sustainability. So we should have, at the core of what we're doing, algorithms around sustainability. And I would love one about happy people and more than anything else because it damn well makes sense. You know, happy workforce is always more productive. So when we're looking at these systems, I just say, well, okay, the accountant's happy, um, the customer might be happy. What about the rest of the organization? Uh, really within there, and I'm only seeing some green shoots, um, no pun intended, beginning to come through now. It's been a long wait. And the big data argument, I mean, we've had capabilities to analyze vastly complex data sets for decades. And the frustration is that it is our failure as an industry to ask the superhuman questions, to say what is the real question we need to have answered? Instead of which we keep on doing our Two times tables. That's the way I feel about it.

Speaker A: I think that brings me nicely onto some of the solutions that I'm seeing because I think the really good thing, you think about the fact that we only really started doing apps, what 15 years ago and you think about how the market has changed, how many people now, uh, can develop, you know, really quick and easy solutions that solve a need. Um, so I'm actually working for a small company, a small vehicle logistics company at the moment, um, who designed um, a solution on the back of something that they were doing for their customers already. They've put together a sort of dashboard and app for drivers to take the app with them. It tracks the driver obviously, uh, with their permission, it does scheduling for them. They upload receipts, they take photos of the vehicle when they deliver or pick it up. It produces reports on how long it took them to do those jobs. It can do pricing and things like that. And it's really very straightforward and simple. But it's just something that that uh, market doesn't really have to the level that it's got. Um, and actually amusing they do include on there, you know, comments back from the customer, um, they're getting information, uh, back from the drivers about how they could improve it. And that's the really exciting thing in this industry. There are so many improvements that we can make. Um, the other side of that from a sustainability point of view, because they're doing so much at ah, the point of delivery and collection, um, they can actually then reroute those vehicles. So they don't need to go back to a workshop, they don't need to go back to a depot, but they can be either sent to auction or um, taken back for repair almost, uh, just dependent on what the state of that vehicle is. So I think there's lots of exciting things in that space. And really going back to previous discussions, there is a reason that, that um, governments are asking companies to look at their scope, 1, 2 and 3 emissions. And again this is why departments should not just keep it within the finance department, within the operations department, but if they socialize those results across the company, they get everybody to buy into that, then that makes reducing their footprint that much easier for the following year and the following year and the following year. Um, and means that we get constantly improving operations and more efficient companies. Oh, and yes, it does reduce emissions too.

Speaker C: Sounds like a win, win, win maybe in terms of some of these, either for your own services and for the products that we're mentioning, maybe we can add a few links onto uh, the podcast, uh, so that people can go and study and understand a little bit more. By all means, please be interactive with us. Um, so if you've got questions, certainly on our logisticscollective.com website, um, we can be interactive. You can send us voice messages, you can send us uh, messages on there. So we'll certainly wrangle any questions and seek to get answers for you. What do we think 2030 might look for a fleet operator? Um, and that really is a watershed, isn't it? I think it's, you know, if you're looking at me, you know the great watershed would be we probably at one time we had horse and cart, steam driven trucks and petrol and diesel driven trucks all driving along at the same road probably at the turn of the last century. Century. Um, I'm just wondering whether it's going to look something similar.

Speaker B: I don't think it's going to be flying cars just yet, uh, in 2030, but 2025, we're just five years away from that pretty important date where it sounds like in terms of legislation the rubber hits the road and the penalties are starting to kick in, are starting to impact manufacturers for example. So we're really at the last replacement cycle, the last usual standard replacement cycle where you can just copy and paste what you used to do. Um, 2030 will look Ah, a lot different. Companies will need to look at the way they produce very differently in order to avoid fines. So don't be surprised if all of a sudden uh, petrol vehicles or diesel vehicles availability gets curtailed because there's going to be a balance that companies need to, ah, manufacturers will need to uh, play with uh, in order to avoid really steep fines. Uh, there's going to be probably a reality of losers and winners. There's going to be ones that sat on their hands maybe a bit too long and the ones that uh, have uh, got a few bruises, maybe invested some money, invested some, some, some research and, and tried a few different things and those are the ones that are going to be in a healthy shape and ready to tackle any changes, be more nimble probably, uh, and ready to, to face the situation.

Speaker C: I, I think the call has got to be is that, that this is about electrification of transport overall. Um, hydrogen is not yet with us and may never be. Um, even though I love the idea of um, uh, what I would describe as a hydrogen battery in terms of balancing out sustainability so you're harvesting energy when it's made and then actually um, into hydrogen, lovely old electrolysis into hydrogen and then using the nice little fuel cell, uh, to convert it back to electricity. But uh, I'm obviously too simplistic and um, people are too focused on the Hindenburg disaster maybe as far as that is concerned. But I think the key is here is that everybody is going to end up starting too late, which is the habit. Okay, I can buy a truck. Great. Well, okay. There are going to be some consequences. I was kindly invited to an open day at one of our larger logistics services providers and I happened to wander down to a truck that they had on display. Now I've bought trucks before and uh, because I'm in my dotage, I remember buying a uh, tractor unit, a 4x2 tractor unit that had a GVW of about 6.9 tons and it was a lightweight special. Yeah, it was specifically in order so that we could improve um, for a particular operation, the capacity of the vehicle. And I saw this wonderful new shiny truck, GVW 11.2 tonnes. Now what we're trying to do is that we're shaping the vehicles to be in line with the way that we're operating at the moment against all of those algorithms that we have in place to say this is how we must do it. And um, the truth of the matter is that I think that's a fool's errand. And um, I think what we should be doing is reshaping our supply chains. But that's difficult. But the view there is that look at it in terms of um, your potential to be truly intermodal, your potential perhaps to offer jobs of a better quality to people that keep them locally or certainly drivers more local and closer to their families if that is what they damn well want. Step away from Malcolm's ideal world. Let's go into um, just basic prosaic. Okay. I've got a fleet of 200 tractor units, units and I base them at my single operating center and they're now all battery powered and they've got, let's say, I don't know, a megawatt battery on the back of them and you're going to have to plug those in and recharge them and there is an impact on um, that, which means that there's a national grid impact in order to be able to actually get that in place. And there's a lead time associated with that and there is new methodology in terms of how you're going to actually make that work and put that into your day to day operating practice. Now the lead times I'm sort of hearing and looking, I Mean, when you're looking at car charging, uh, you'll very often see that car chargers will arrive and then they'll have barriers put around them, uh, because they're waiting to connect. And so here is the thing. I mean, I'm talking earlier about enablement. What can governments and what should governance be doing in terms of its. Well, it's enforcement, enablement of infrastructure. They're going to have to. But if that doesn't happen, then folks need to start an awful lot earlier than they have. What the difficulty is, I think, that they are looking in the future and saying it's five years away. When you get to a certain age, you blink, you know, you sneeze, and another year's gone by. And this five years is going to pass incredibly quickly. And it maybe is not on the top of anybody's agenda. Putting an electric truck and displaying it is only part of the issue. What you need to say is, what do you need to have? What do you need to plan to have the true transformation?

Speaker A: I think all of what you've said there is true. Um, I have to say the underlying, uh, incentive for government is that there is a legal mandate to reach net zero by 2050. There are carbon budgets. Um, we have done all right for CB3, carbon budget three and, um, carbon budget four. We look like we're on track. Carbon budget five looks okay as well, but carbon budget six is for the 2000 and 30s. And by that time, um, there's a big gap in terms of what needs to happen. And I think government will have to use more sticks. Um, and I think that we talked about China and what they're doing. They are leading the world in renewables. They're leading the world in solar, they're leading the world in wind. They're leading the world obviously in electric vehicles, um, in electrification of buses. Um, and I think, yes, the whole situation will change dramatically in the next five years. You think about China, they've done that in the last two years, and really, it's incredible what they've done. Um, and I think, you know, perhaps, hopefully, um, there will be more linking of what is actually happening in the climate to what we see on the ground. Because at the moment we are seeing storms, floods and fires. The global figure for that is that they cost £10 million per hour, and we're only at one and a half degrees now. And if you think about that change, we set the 1 1/2 degree centigrade target less than 10 years ago.

Speaker C: And was that million or billion?

Speaker A: 10 million. Pounds per hour.

Speaker C: Per hour. Just checking.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, it should be more than that. Um, and that will impact businesses, that will impact deliveries, that will impact flooding and whether or not people can make those deliveries that they're doing at the moment. And maybe, yes, we'll be looking more at um, infrastructure from the point of view of Israel going to be, um, uh, more reliable delivery mechanisms. And people will have to start thinking about that as well. And there will potentially be carbon taxes by then as well. So all of these things will start to impact businesses in terms of how they deliver. And as we've just said, we have to start thinking about it. Businesses have to start thinking about it now and working out how they're going to deliver it. And on the big, big machinery, um, they have electric mining equipment now, those great big things that uh, dig into rocks and those are powered by electricity, powered by batteries. And again, again, Chinese are, dare I say, uh, winning there as well because they are developing such battery technology that I think many of the things that we think are issues now really just won't be in five years time, hopefully.

Speaker C: Anyway, sounds like we've been caught napping over here in terms of this. Sounds like China has scooted well ahead. They've set their target with determination. Um, they've been well planned, well coordinated. There are always lessons to learn and uh, really within the. I'm not saying that Europe is bereft of uh, ideas and opportunity, but perhaps, um, we need to begin to scale up how we're going to actually address this as a sort of closing question. I know that we probably had certainly a couple of more questions we wanted to explore and I'm going to perhaps use that as a temptation to encourage you both to come on for another session, uh, if you'd be so willing. But if I was asking you, you're interact with business. Um, I interact with business. But if you had a look at what I would Describe as net zero readiness on a scale of 1 to 10, what would your view be in terms of what is the square root of 10? So 10 would be. I'm absolutely there. I'm already, I'm at net zero. I'm dreaming about, um, you know, negative zero. How about that? We want to begin to extract CO2 from the atmosphere. So I'm thinking about ways that, that I can, I can actually do that and zero being well, yeah, sounds like a good idea. Uh, but at some point in the future it's not going to really pay me to actually get involved in it. I've not really made A start. So what would your view be and what you see on that sort of 0 to 10 score?

Speaker B: I'd say that there's a big range. There's a big, big range in the. Where you go from one extreme where there's. There's no, uh, I don't, I haven't seen a, uh, real net zero complete, uh, uh, completely ahead business yet. Uh, but there are really keen people that form, unfortunately a, uh, small minority who are tinkering with things and reviewing and challenging themselves and doing things differently. And then there's a very big majority that are between the 0 and 5, I would say, where some haven't woken up yet, uh, some are just starting to wake up and are a bit like uh, the deer in the headlights and they're like, holy crap, how do we do that? Uh, and how do we go about this? And then they're a little bit in just trying to accelerate things. But uh, yeah, there's a big need to gather more momentum. And uh, what I keep telling, uh, everybody I talk to is just get started. Get started with something practical, something that you can then really get started. So that was not the best sentence. Maybe the editor can help me. But yeah, I say to people, get, uh, started with something meaningful that you can manage and it doesn't need to be everything. Don't think of the whole system change at once necessarily. Think about one depot or one route, or think about really breaking down the problem into more manageable bits.

Speaker A: Sounds positive, I think, from my point of view, um, perhaps it is one of the discussions for the next time. Um, but I do see the larger companies that I work with, many of them are doing some really good things. Um, but actually they're concerned about accusations of greenwashing, so they don't shout about it. And that to me is possibly one of the biggest shames. Because if we just shared. If we could just encourage every company to share what they're doing, just think of the learning that we could get from that and think of the benefits that that would have for the whole sector, for the whole industry, and how much more quickly we could reduce emissions because there are great examples out there of what people are doing. Um, but there are an awful lot of laggards as well. And if those laggards just understand that the biggest companies, uh, the biggest countries in the world are doing this, that is going to happen. They really don't have a choice, then hopefully they might come on board.

Speaker C: So on the basis of what I say, and I'm not going to Disagree with either of you. I'm going to give uh, an average in terms of what I see, a great big four, fat three score. Yeah. Because whilst I do see some progress, I don't see it done in a coordinated way and I don't think they're addressing the fundamentals of how their business works. So I think many people are dealing sustainability with something that I can buy rather than something that says I have to change behavior. And that for me is the fundamental arena whereby I think anybody that's involved in training carbon literacy, I think, you know, absolutely big up to you. I think that's um, the um, absolute precise thing that you need to do. You need to get yourself educated in terms of what is actually going on within. Uh, but I'll only ever school it as a three because it's easy to buy just a different truck. And I think the view there is what fundamentally are you changing in terms of your core systems, your core processors? How are you going to approach the market? What is your service offering? Because I grow mildly demented about the idea of um, uh, over servicing. So the overservice is, well, I press the button and I can have it now or I can have it tomorrow. It's that debate between need and want. And I think the want is damaging

Speaker B: to climate and we're not helping the individual customer because we don't give them that accurate measurement of what is the impact of thinking they really want this. Now as transparency improves, uh, I'm a, an optimistic, an eternal optimistic to my, to my uh, disservice sometimes, uh, but I think as that desire to measure emissions throughout the whole chain continues to cascade down, eventually it's going to make its way to the end customer that's clicking on checkout on their basket online and we'll give them that, yeah, you can have it now, but here's the cost, taking into account the environmental footprint that this is going to have. Or, uh, you can be a bit more patient and maybe walk a few steps and have uh, a positive impact on your health and uh, go get it at the communal locker and uh, that way uh, you can actually get it a bit later, but in a much more sustainable way at a lower cost.

Speaker C: So that would be emitting CO2 to make yourself more svelte and arguably more attractive. And that might be a positive emission in terms of CO2 and obviously far less than chugging down in your big old diesel car to go and pick that up. But I guess I'm a grumpy old man on a mission. And, um, I don't mind calling out nonsense where I see it. And, you know, what you've got to go and search for is how deep are the roots in what you're seeing. Yeah. And if it is, effectively we're putting like a stucco plaster cover on the derelict building that we're living in. Yeah. You've improved your curbside appeal, but your house is going to fall down beyond behind you. So that might be a bit, um, maybe a bit, bit extreme. But, um, I want to be able to see. I think there must be, uh, maturity models out there. Uh, there must be models out there, uh, that would allow a business to actually assess how truly sustainable it is and where are the missed opportunities. I think it's got to go beyond. You know, I've plugged in an LED light bulb and I've put solar panels on top of my roof and put a wind turbine outside and I've electrified my fleet. Yeah, okay, thanks. Well done. Um, but all of that needs to have still some level of energy generated. Um, so how can we actually get to the stage of living more sustainably? How can we do that? And probably I've said too much. Go on, Anne.

Speaker A: Can I just add one thing to that, which is that what I really love about what I do is that people come on the course, they do the course and they make change. Um, and Benoit and Steven, I'm sure, can give testament to this. I've had procurement directors of enormous companies and I can't see which one come on the course. Go. I made 80 flights last year. I'm not going to do that anymore. And when you get someone saying that, that really, to me is the heart of what you were talking about there. I mean, yes, he said I have to have face to face meetings, but I'm going to do so many more online instead, um, because it's important. So I truly hope that we can drive that change.

Speaker B: And you know, Ann, on the back of your course, uh, you forced us to, uh, give a statement of what we're going to do currently. And, uh, what I had to do is pay for the 12 tons of carbon that we're going to emit to go back to Canada this summer for the family. So it's 12 tons, the return flights to Canada, and it was 192 US dollars. And, uh, I had made a commitment. So it's about, yeah, you make a commitment, you need to, um, put your money where your mouth is. Is that the right, uh, thing? I like an expression, but I'm never always um, I'm not always sure if it's one, but, uh, yeah, it all starts with awareness and then committing to making a change and then following through

Speaker C: quite separately from this. I've had a career m. Uh, with international responsibility. And I sat down and I calculated the number of business flights that I had made, and I got to over a thousand. And when I started my business, uh, Loguru, uh, app, I deliberately set it up. And this is before the pandemic. I said, I'm going to operate this, this on a principle of using. I use Microsoft Teams. And we were much earlier almost using a beta version of it, because what we wanted to do is to say, well, actually, travel is a cost. If you're going to travel, you need to make a wise investment. Plus, all right, I don't want to destroy the airline industry. It's an important, uh, it's an important market sector. But, yes, it needs to go through a transformation into a new, greener future. But who on earth likes going to an airport? Um, you know, is this a pleasurable experience? So that was part of it. And the other part of it was, um, to actually work with a team whereby they could be closer to their home, closer to their family, and have a life. Not a work life balance, but actually have a life. I always reflect back on, um, you know, we exchange our lives to earn tokens that allow us, in theory, to improve our lives. But let's be very clear, we're investing our lives. And, um, I think people sometimes sort of separate money versus life, and we do value that. By definition, we do value some lives more highly than others, which is an ethical, uh, basis. I struggle with that. Uh, that's. Hey ho. So let's, uh. Anne Benoit, thank you ever so much for a very enjoyable conversation. I hope you've enjoyed it.

Speaker A: Thank you very much.

Speaker B: It's been a fun, uh, period of time, for sure.

Speaker C: Good. So are we going to commit to, um, another one?

Speaker A: I would love to. It would only be my second go on, Benoit.

Speaker B: I'd be happy to. Yeah, absolutely

Speaker C: right. So I will end this by saying as I normally would, thank you, you, uh, very kindly for your participation and for a, uh, really intriguing and interesting conversation. And that brings us to a close. So, um, thanks to the listener for listening. We are available on all of the normal podcast platforms that you might be aware of and also available on logisticscollective.com thanks so much.

Speaker B: You can contact us by email@podcast podcastogisticscollective.com or by leaving a voice message on our website logisticscollective.com the podcast is a production by Luguru, who are part of Tompkins Ventures, a global collaboration of advisory, matchmaking and investment partners solving global logistics and supply chain challenges more quickly and cost effectively than our competition.