Planning & Scaling Up Top-Quality Solar Panel Recycling

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome back for another episode of Clean Tech Talk. Where we at, uh, CleanTechnica, interview cleantech leaders from around the world with topics ranging from electric cars to climate change communication. You can listen to our full podcast series by visiting our website@cleantechnica.com.

Speaker A: All right, we're here for another episode of Cleantech Talk. I'm Zach Shahan, CEO of CleanTechnica. And joining us today is Suvi Sharma. Ah, founder of Solar Cycle and really a humongous career I think, in solar. So let's just start off a little bit with uh, how you got to where you are today, what you've done in the past in the solar industry. Uh, I know that's a lot to go through, but just give us a picture of what your career has been in solar and then uh, you can even lead right into how that led you to solar cycle if you'd like.

Speaker C: Thanks Zach. Great, uh, to be here with you today. Um, I have been in solar industry for about 20 years now, actually a little over 20 years, uh, and I got into it really because, uh, I saw two things that were very interesting. One is solar, uh, is just a better technology. If you look at energy, uh, putting aside, you know, um, politics, putting aside anything else, it's just a better technology. It produces power very, very cost effectively now cleanly, um, you know, and uh, is very bankable. And it's because it's, it's really a very reliable source of electrons. And so I saw that on one hand, uh, and that there was a huge opportunity there. And then on the other hand it just seemed like the right thing to do, uh, from both uh, emissions standpoint, uh, and also a, um, self empowerment and a geopolitics standpoint. So you don't always find those two things so well correlated. But solar is very highly correlated in that area. And so uh, I decided to focus in on it. It was very nascent at the time, very small industry, kind of a cottage industry honestly. I mean Solar was 0.5 at that time, less than 0.1% of power, um, generation capacity going in. Uh, we sit here today in the U.S. uh, it's well over 60%. So, uh, just made huge strides. And I've been involved in a few companies that I've co founded, uh, Solaria, which is uh, now called SunPower when they bought the SunPower assets, uh, and Next tracker that was initially part of Solaria that um, we spun out and has become a phenomenal success story. Way more successful after I left, uh, even than uh, than when I was there, uh, but you know, great opportunity to be at the forefront of new technologies and products in the solar industry and commercializing them and scaling them. And about five years ago I took

Speaker A: a uh, sometimes if your vision's really good, you're, you get in and out of something before it's, before it booms. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah. And those, you know, those, those I mean I, you know, as you know, I mean solar, we call it the solar coaster. It's been through a lot of ups and downs and you know it wasn't all, all uh, all roses but uh, we managed to really continue to develop uh, you know, innovative technologies, survive through it, focus uh, on customers and you know, in an industry that at the end of the day has gone through a lot of changes but has grown phenomenally um, over the last two decades. And so uh, five years ago I took a self induced sabbatical, uh, just needed kind of a little break and a reset and I got very interested in recycling and circular economy and started looking at you know, everything from even just my own waste, uh, production and recycling bin and what was going in there and what was happening to it. And um, I started seeing that uh, recycling was actually had a long ways to go to really become sophisticated and that you know, even a lot of things we put in the recycling bin are not being recycled. Um, um, and so thought wow, this is really interesting. Like we have to change the way we live in our world from a throwaway culture to one that truly recycles. And uh, and so as part of that, that journey, that personal journey, I, I started looking at a lot of different um, technologies and aspects and started looking at solar. And I thought I bet solar, I bet in solar we figured this out because you know, solar is, you know, uh, as you're aware, it's a very innovative, fast moving industry. It's high, it's, it's uh, proud of its sustainable um, uh, and footprint. Uh, but when I looked under the hood I was surprised to see that we weren't doing anything about it yet. Now it kind of made sense. Solar uh, was all about deploying it. There were not that many end of life panels but I saw that there was going to be a big wave coming, uh, and faster than most people realize because of repowering and the fact that new panels are just so much better than the ones that were made 15 years ago and so decided that we needed to develop a real solution for it starting from the technology and the equipment and the processes to really mastering things like reverse logistics and how to even get these panels to the site and then figuring out where these materials are going to go and that we needed a. It's going to take years, a few years to figure this out so that when the wave comes we could do it. So that's what I decided to focus my next, I guess if you want it, uh, meandering career move, uh, too, uh, and started um, Solar Cycle with two co founders Jesse Simons and Pablo Diaz about uh, a little over four years ago now. Uh, and it's been a really fascinating uh, journey. Uh, but that's how I got into it is I just felt like we needed to solve this part of the equation. And you know, a lot of people that are not in the industry don't realize how big the solar industry has gotten. Just, just to give you a, you know, give everyone a sense of scale, uh, we think televisions, right? There's a lot of televisions made each year. So there are about 230 million televisions made globally each year. This year there'll be over 1.2 billion solar panels made each year. And they're, and they're about the size of a television. So that gives you a sense of scale. And guess what? That's probably going to triple in the next seven to eight years. So when you start thinking about that and the materials that go into it and what's required and, and uh, all. And I was like, wow, this is something we really need to figure out. We've become so good at making these panels and deploying them and doing it cost effectively. We got to do the same thing now of how to recycle them and create a circular supply chain. So that's what landed me here to what I'm doing today.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a, ah, great background story. I like this. Um, I want to keep going actually this. I know we'll get more to um, solar cycle, but uh, I've been covering the solar industry uh, for clean technica since 2008. So um, 18 years. And uh, I remember the early days and we were just ah, we were excited in 2008, 2009, 2010, we were like this, this industry is booming. This is the future. And you know, you have the forecast from Sia and from you know, Wood McKinsey or um, had a different name back then. What was the name back then? Uh, anyway, uh, what was. Okay, well we don't want to get sidetracked, but I can't. I feel like it should be top of mind, but now it's Been, been so long anyway you'd have those forecasts, you know, for what's coming in the coming years and you'd be like, you know, yeah, this 100% makes sense is where we're going. It's gonna be a solar future. Um, but at the same time you're like it was big growth, you're looking at right from nothing. So, so I used to do, I used to pull together Data from the US UNH Energy Information Administration, um, looking at exactly like how, how much, um and uh, and from ferc, so looking at both how much new, new power capacity is being added from solar, from wind, from different sources and I do reports on this and then how much of the total electricity supply that was. And you know we're talking, we're talking fractions back then and you're, and you're, you're optimistic and you're forecasting this enormous growth and you got like Shell putting out a report about how by 2050 solar will be the dominant form of energy in the world and stuff like this. But, but still it's, it's, it was, it was quite an experience to like see how it progressed from sort of some growth in the us The German uh, feed in tariffs giving it a boom, Australian market and then China sort of, you know, China coming in and making it a be, I mean helping enormously to make it a behemoth uh, through scale and policy. So going through those different phases, I'm just curious, like what was your feeling throughout that? Did you always feel from like the beginning this is the future, this is gonna be how it happens? Or did you have moments of concern about where uh, the industry was or barriers along the way?

Speaker C: You know, it's a great question. I mean so much of it, um, you know solar was like the underdog, right um, and starting out and it was so small, um, and like you said, it's barely registered mustard, you know. And so it, it was just, you know all you could see. It was nothing but ah, up, uh now you know, who wins, who loses. That, that's always sort of the competition aspect of it and uh, and all. But uh, but, but no, I, I, I was, I, I, I remained very bullish on it just because you could see the, the efficiency curves, the cost curves. Right. When you're in the industry and you're in it and you, you know you're seeing these, these are uh, not theoretical like you know, and, and, and you know it's kind of like semiconductors, uh, has really rules our planet in many ways. Now. Right. I mean we all use semiconductor devices. Well that's what solar is in energy. It's a semiconductor device. And so I just had no doubt in my mind. Um, my biggest concerns actually on growth of solar have come in the last five years um where, because now it is so dominant in new power generation and it's m. Uh, it's, it's, it's economics are better that now you've got the fossil fuel industry that feels threatened by it. Right. And uh, so, uh, so there's a lot more and, and you know frankly it's, it's bigger, it's going into more communities just like data centers have you know, started catching a lot of slack because of also part of the, is how much energy they use. So, so solar is. Now that it's bigger, uh, that's where my, my concerns were more that uh, you know, it's like um, Gandhi's quote. Uh, first they ignore you. Right. Uh and then they laugh at you, uh, and then they fight you. M. And so I think we're in that phase now where solar uh, is much more powerful energy source and becoming dominant. And so that's where I started looking at how do we get in front of the issues that will, we will grapple with in the industry. Right. And there's, there's several. Um, but one of them I saw was the end of life and the waste stream. Right. Because that they As I mentioned, 1.2 billion solar panels a year and growing. That's a, that's a lot. Um, and it's a lot of material. And so I thought let's, let's try to create in solar the most circular industry in the world. Um, right. And that was our vision for solar cycle is to make solar more circular than any other product that exists. And I think we're well on our way towards that.

Speaker A: Yeah, there are some quite significant big uh, astroturfing anti renewables campaigns that have been building um, in recent years, particularly in the US I'm not sure so much outside of the US I'm not as familiar. Um, and they have a little easier time targeting wind power even though it's also super clean and helpful in various ways. Um, but I get your point that the more you get big solar projects going in, the more uh, um, potential you have for these anti campaigns to kind of, you know, fossil fuel funded. I mean listen, there's no, it's not like there's really legitimate, that much legitimate concern about it naturally. Um, but I like that. You know, but they often do take this kind of green angle. So they try to roll in like modest, you know, some environmental or concerns and use that against solar, which is always, to me, it's just like, I don't, you know, I don't understand how you can, um, get sucked into that when, you know, when you, when there's so much evidence of how bad the alternative fossil fuels are. But it, but it seems to work sometimes. So I really love, loved that side, uh, that you're taking. And from an interview I saw with you, it was sort of like, it seems sort of like, you know, you could retire and be golfing, whatever, like a lot of people do once they've made enough money, founding companies being early in the industry. Um, but you, it's from what I saw in another interview, you sort of, you wanted to be of help again to find a way to help the industry again into the future. Um, when did this kind of concern first pop into your head with solar panels, with the need to recycle them and sort of, ah, an absent industry. Therefore, that. When did that start? Was it way back, you know, 10, 15 years ago, or did not really kick in until recently?

Speaker C: Um, first of all, the reason why I'm doing this is I'm a terrible golfer. Uh, so, you know, I'm not a golfer.

Speaker A: I'm a tennis. I like, I love tennis, but I don't do golf.

Speaker C: So I tried, but, uh, I wasn't very good at it. So, you know, I got interested in this, uh, area, I would say about, uh, nine, ten years ago when, you know, when I was in the business of making solar panels. Right. And so we always had scrap in the factory, uh, or warranty issues would come back. And so I started looking at how, how to recycle these because it didn't make sense to landfill them. And, and so, um, when I, when I looked at it was mainly e waste recyclers, you know, that said, hey, I can I put a keyboard through my shredder, I'll put a solar panel through. And when I looked at it, you know, it just, uh, it wasn't really, they weren't really getting all the materials out and, and so. But, you know, kind of like everyone else does, you're like, well, it's better than nothing. And, and actually I did all kinds of crazy stuff we, we had at Solaria. We had these like, these panels that were beautiful. You know, they were like going on homes or all black. We would get stuff that was reject because it just wasn't like black enough. Sometimes and so on. We started doing all kinds of crazy stuff, like took a bunch and turned them into great desks, you know, and conference tables and, you know, reuse. Right. Some things like that. But, uh, you know, you can't, you can't do that with a billion solar panels. But, but, you know, we were doing that, those kinds of things, but it got me interested in it. And to be honest, you know, while I was running a company making panels, I just tried to find a decent enough solution, right, which we did. Then when I wasn't, uh, doing much of anything, um, and I was starting to look at this more deeply, I went way deeper. And then that's when I really saw that the current recyclers, uh, and I'll put it in quotes, that were recycling solar panels, were not really recycling them. Um, they were at best getting some aluminum off, um, and really throwing the rest away. And the reason was that, um, they didn't have the capability, they didn't have the tools, they didn't have the processes, equipment, all that. And it's because it didn't exist, you couldn't go buy it. And so that's where I decided the first thing we need to do is develop the technology to do this, the equipment and the processes, and figure out how to do this and develop it and start getting enough volumes of panels that we could run to really do that. And so, um, that led me to the journey and then decided that, okay, we're going to start a company. Because part of it was when I talked to some of the solar leaders like Sun Run and others who I'd worked with in the past, and they, they were like, yeah, we don't know. We've talked to some recyclers, but we don't really know where to send these. And they were sitting on warehouse, a couple of warehouses of these, um, uh, waiting. And, and so, um, and I said, okay, you know, I said, to be honest, I don't know. I don't know how to recycle them either. But we're going to figure it out and we're going to hire some real talent to do that. And, you know, we ended up doing that and figured out how to recycle them. And today, you know, I'm very proud of the fact that we can, you know, we can. We get basically virtually every material out of the panel and put it back into the supply chain.

Speaker A: I'm sure that's where your background and history really, really was a key, key to this, you know, to, to have the trust and have the, uh, relationships that they were like. Okay. It's nice, you know, if you're admitting we don't really know how. Well, you know, you know, if you're. You're a nobody. Okay, we'll talk to you later.

Speaker B: Bye.

Speaker A: Bye. But, you know, if you have.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, let me see. Right. Because then we will figure it out.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I think I just checked. The first time I covered Solaria was 14 years ago. And the first time, uh, we covered Next Tracker, I think, was 11 years ago. Um, so again, it's like. Yeah, you seem to be very early on in a lot of, um, parts of this, so it is really interesting just to talk to you. M. I feel like it might be a little sidetracked, but it's not that often you get to talk to someone who's been so core to the industry for so long. Um, thank you. Yeah. Thank you for what you've done. I mean, thank you for what you're doing. Um, and I was, you know, recycling is not really the hottest thing. Uh, and, you know, having been in the cleantech press for almost 20 years, it's. It's really not at all like, you know, it's. It's really exciting to get news of new technologies, to write about growth of a. Of a market or of a company and, you know, be the new thing. And not a lot of people really care about recycling the old. You know, how, how you deal with waste, all this stuff, it's never an easy thing to get, uh, interest in. And so I'm sure that. I'm sure I'm on the public end, whatever, that's what it is. But I'm curious, on the industry end, uh, have you had challenges just getting people to be in. Getting companies getting, um, important players for you to be interested in this or, you know, has it been just too easy for them to say, oh, we deal with it. We. We have these e. Waste manu. Recyclers who take our stuff. Is it hard for you to get an er?

Speaker C: Yeah, no, it's, you know, uh, kind of like when I was, um, running Solaria, I didn't wake up thinking about how do I recycle the stuff. Right. Uh, it's, it's back. It's. It's. It's. It's back of house, it's back of mine. Um, now we have, um. And part of it is because, you know, on modesty side, I think the people that are at Solar cycle, not just me, but also many others that have been in the Industry know, people have the trust, credibility, um, that we got their attention, you know, that this is something that is worth looking at. But it's hard. You're right. I mean it just always is. Uh, you know, we always joke, uh, at Solar Cycle, like we really have the hearts and minds of the boardrooms at all these big solar companies, but the recycling is done at the warehouse. Right. Um, and so that's been a big challenge, uh, but certainly we've been able to elevate this to, I mean some of the biggest companies in the world, even the Brookfields and so on, um, to very high level, executive level, that this is something they need to, to tackle. And, and it's interesting because a lot of the solar companies that are big developers, they're seeing firsthand that this is coming up in community town hall meetings. You know, are we going to end up with a pile of these in our local landfill? Right. So being able to say no, actually we have a contract already recycling with SolarCycle and we recycle all our panels with them. That definitely helps.

Speaker A: Um, so those asteroid surfing campaigns could be helping you. Hey, you might even be co funding that. I'm just kidding. No, no. Ah, no.

Speaker C: But you know, we're in a metal, we're reaching a material, a world of material scarcity. And it sometimes does hit front page news. I mean, you know, if you look at like the data center build out or the AI build out, there's really two core constraining factors in it. There's energy and there's metals. Because all these chips and servers and all they use a huge amount of energy and they use a huge amount of metals and even metals that no one even thought about, like copper. You know, all of a sudden you've got companies like Microsoft and Hewlett Packard that are, you know, announcing or Amazon announcing deals where they're like figuring out how to get copper back into their supply chain. So it's a new world order in terms of that. And so you know, when you think about recycling solar panels, um, you know you've got uh, in solar panels, uh, and actually we're starting to recycle. Not just solar panels now, but inverters and transformers. These have huge amounts of copper, silver, aluminum, uh, uh, and these are very important metals, um, to get back into the supply chain. Solar panels are using about 20% of the annual world silver supply and growing silver prices tripled in the last 18 months. And so it is always a battle, uh, to get this front of mind. Uh, but I do think that there's enough going on in the world that um, we can, if we inform and educate the stakeholders, they are paying attention. Um, but it's actually keeping that attention, uh, because again it just goes back into like, okay, I just gotta deal with. It's a waste. At the end of the day, it's a waste thing that.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny. Um, uh, my wife is Polish and I lived in Poland for 11 years and uh, about 10 years ago the uh, someone got me connected. We had a meeting with um, someone from the Copper Industry association of Poland, uh, which, Poland's a big copper market actually. Um, and uh, he was talking to us in his big office like, hey, it has this report on how this is going to be a big part of the future and it's going to need a lot of growth because uh, it's in all kinds of clean tech, um, products, solutions. And um, we're like, no, definitely, that's a great, you know, it was quite a bit eye opening but they're like, you know, we need to work together, you know, bring a more. And I was like, yeah, yeah, how can we. We never ended up finding a way like, how do you want to work with, you know, what do you, what should we do? You know. But it was also like, it was clear to me even at that moment, like this is so early stage, it's, it's going to be really hard to get people's attention outside of this industry that this is going to be an issue, you know, but as you point out, like, it's becoming more obviously an issue. Um, uh, and yeah, like you said with metals, there's two things with scale I wanted to get to on that front. One is uh, more about what you talked about. But the first one is like, that's got to be one of the challenges and one of the first things that came to mind for me was thinking about the lifespan of solar panels. So they have 20 plus year warranties and many studies that we covered a long time ago, you know, showed that they would last even much longer, 30, 40, 50 years and still be pumping out electricity in a useful way. Um, I don't know how much that maybe has, has changed or how much that matters, maybe when uh, the economics change over time. But, but how much of a challenge is it for you that, so that so many, that these products last so long. Like, like how much is that a challenge for you today with getting scale? Because you're obviously not getting scaled based on the solar panels, um, installed. I assume you're not on the solar panels installed in the last five to 10 years, you're more building right now on the ones that were installed many years ago, I assume.

Speaker C: Yeah, Let me, I can give you some insight into what we're seeing on that. Uh, first of all, let me, let me do a little ode to solar panels. I mean there, there, it's an electronic product that can last for 30 years out in any weather condition, you know, barring very extreme weather, which is just phenomenal. I mean you think about any, think about your cell phone.

Speaker A: It's a crazy, it's a crazy. I mean it is. Honestly, it feels like something out of a sci fi movie. That's unrealistic, right? How, how good they are, how.

Speaker C: Yeah, it is, it's incredible. Uh, and you know, and their energy payback is about a year now or less, right? So basically all the energy that went into making it is paid back in a year and then they last for up to 30 years, which there's actually no other product like it. Um, if you think about it, um, so it's an amazing product and you know, I'm proud to have worked in that field and you know, been part of innovating in that area and um, maintaining like low cost and continued efficiency improvements while maintaining this reliability. So that part is great. Now from a recycling standpoint, I would say the reason why I started the company when I did, um, and why we got into this now or four years ago versus because a lot of people, even in the solar industry, they're like, this is great, but this is a problem 10 years from now, isn't it? Or 15 years from now. There's two reasons why I felt like the time was now. One is I felt like we needed some years to develop the right solution to be ready for the big wave. Right? And it's not like you could just overnight recycle millions and millions of panels. You gotta really build that capability. And I wanted to do that and get ahead of it. But really the two main things, um, that drove me into it is the first is law of large numbers. And the second is repowering. Okay? And what I mean by those two is on, um, law of large numbers, we, we currently have almost a billion solar panels installed in the US we have almost 100 million being installed each year. So when you have such a large number, even a very, very small percentage, some break. So first of all you have manufacturing scrap now. Uh, before we had 4 gigawatts of solar panel manufacturing in the US we got almost 50 now. So we get scrap, right? That we recycle.

Speaker A: This is what was coming to my mind when I was presenting my case. I was like, this is going to be an obvious answer. Scrap from production.

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, honestly, that's not a huge volume for us, but. But you know, it adds up. Um, then the next one is construction breakage. Uh, about half a percent of the panels break in the shipping and construction phase. Right. These are big, bulky glass devices being installed by construction crews out in the field. So you're going to have so half a percent. So, you know, sometimes you've got these projects that, you know, they're installing 2 million panels in there, right? So, you know, half a %, you got 10,000 panels. Uh, yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker A: But I mean, anyone who's received a package. No, I mean, there's so many cases of that. I mean, I can imagine no matter how much they're. They're instructed to protect these and to ship them carefully, that they still, though half a percent is.

Speaker C: Yeah. M. Larger than they break less in shipping and more in construction. Installation.

Speaker A: In the construction.

Speaker C: Okay, yeah, in the construction process. Uh, and then. And now that's an average. You know, it ranges and thin film breaks more than crystalline and you know, um, those, um, you know, glass. Glass breaks more than glass back sheet. But on average, roughly about close, um, to half a percent. Then you've got, uh, O and M losses. Right. You always have like, you know, I talked about how great a solar panel is, but there's always sometimes some issue, the junction box failure, warrant, uh, backsheet issues. Um, uh, we've seen a situation where golf balls, like, you know, near a. You know, it's near, near back to golfing, probably. My ball.

Speaker A: I was, I almost said I was like. Was that one of your balls? No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker C: Um, yeah, that's, that's the way I can ensure we get plenty of panels. I just go golfing. Um, so, so, you know, that, that's, that's another one. Um, then, uh, then, uh, what has been really the single biggest contributor has been, uh, extreme weather events. Hail storms, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, fires. Um, again, when you have a billion panels out there installed, um, you know, you, you say, okay, half a percent, right. Um, it's half a million panels a year.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: So. So it doesn't take a lot to start adding up. And then, and then, so that's really the law of large numbers, right? Is you've. You've got enough being deployed. You've got enough already deployed that even a Very small percentage or fraction of a percentage is meaningful to start, um, getting volumes, um, and then the repowering piece.

Speaker A: We'll come back to that. I'm curious on that one because that's also something that kept tickling my mind was, um, uh, I remember visiting um, Provost Solar power station in Crimea 13 years ago. 14. 13. 14 years ago. Um, before, when Crimea was a peaceful little area of Ukraine. Um, not taken. Uh, it was actually not long before that happened. But, um, the project was 100 megawatt projects, was once the largest or one of the largest projects in the world, which is quite hilarious. But I was giving a tour of it and they were highlighting that the solar panels could withstand, um, hail and not break hail. That was the size of a baseball or uh, at least a golf ball. But uh, uh, uh. And I was, you know, so thoroughly impressed by the, you know, by that that it stuck with me all these years, 13 years later. Um, but I was wondering when thinking about this interview, has there been. Is there an. Are solar panels today as sturdy and durable as they were back then? Are they more sturdy and durable or, or has the, you know, the drive to bring down costs, to scale up, uh, and bring down costs like ah, uh, to pretty like crazy degrees when you think back that far, um, has that resulted in panels being more fragile, more breakable, um, and, and creating more of a, you know, market for recycling, obviously, but an issue there.

Speaker C: So I'll give you a nuanced response on that. Ah, panels have become generally more reliable over time. Right. They're better made, um, the learning curve, um, has been steep. And so, you know, panel today is more reliable on average than a, ah, panel that was made five years ago, 10 years ago, 15, 20 years ago. The flip side to that is the industry has gone towards thinner glass and the thinner glass is just not as strong. Um, and so you're gonna see more breakage in extreme weather.

Speaker A: Does the thinner glass help with anything other than cost or is it just a matter of it was, you know.

Speaker C: Well, it helps in terms of, uh, they're. They're easy. You know, these panels are big and so they're easier to lift for, for the construction crews and faster. And so transportation costs, fuel transportation costs.

Speaker A: I mean, I'm sure then I would imagine the net benefit is, is positive. But at the same time it is.

Speaker C: The trade off though you're making is you've got a less strong product out there that's going to, you know, for, for these extreme weather events. Um, and so that's A trade off.

Speaker A: Uh, so that is, can you, can you break out at all? Like what portion of panels needing a recycled today are due to extreme weather events or due to construction. Um, uh, breakage or due to.

Speaker C: Roughly, I can, I can break it out uh, in rough, rough numbers. And that's. And it's changing though. Uh, but yeah, for sure. And uh, and it's changed. So, so right now, you know, if you look at the last three, four years, um, more than half was extreme weather damage. Um, here's a, here's a rough breakout. 10%, 5 to 10% is scrap. About um. 10 uh, percent to 15% is construction breakage. Um, weather was about 30 to 40%. Extreme weather was 30 to 40, let's call it weather in general. 30 to 40% O&M losses. Another 10, um, 15% and the remainder 10, 15% was repowering. It kind of gives you a rough.

Speaker A: Very interesting. I love that as a numbers guy. I love getting that breakdown. Just trying to understand what's going on in this industry that's quite opaque at this point, you know. Uh, but yeah, hopefully my numbers added

Speaker C: up to around 100. But you know, I wasn't joking.

Speaker A: No, but uh, I mean they're all estimates so it's.

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, but roughly that's what we're seeing. But that's shifting and it's evolving and it's evolving to going less from weather we're still and more towards repowering.

Speaker A: Um, so what is the repower? Let's get to that.

Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. And just to close out on the weather piece real quick and the durability of the panels. So the flip side is panels are breaking more. However, as you know the solar industry and because you've covered it for a while and been in part of it, it's a very innovative, fast moving industry and the industry has done a good job. For example, my former um, uh, uh, colleagues, Dan, uh, Sugar, Howard Wengaroo on Next Tracker, they have done a great job in working on their tracker to do ah, hail sto and more extreme stow. Right. So that's reducing I believe damage um, from hail on these systems. So it's again yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: It's such an innovative industry. My mom actually went for a, for a um, Next Tracker event, I think it was in Arizona several years ago where she got to talk at length over the weekend with one of the top engineers, I forget the name but just uh, was thoroughly impressed with the level of engineering expertise and focus on problem solving and kind of, you know, so it is something that's just so core to the industry. So I can believe, I can imagine that they're constantly like, how do we fix, you know, how do we bring that.05%, um, problem down to.03% or.

Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker A: The weather issue that's happening with climate events, I mean they're expected to get much bigger. So expect it to be a much bigger issue in a decade if you don't have much better solutions. Right. So. Okay, sorry. But uh, yeah, it is like for me this is like a, uh, I feel like we're walking through like a 15, 20 year history of the solar industry and kind of trying to tease out different elements of it that are more hidden. But um. Okay, let's go get to the, to the last part here.

Speaker C: Okay, so repowering, you know, which is um, a big reason why uh, we started solar cycle when we did, is um, while you're absolutely right, solar panels can last for 30 years. Um, they don't always because of the things that I just mentioned, but many, most of them will still can last for 30 years. Um, but my prediction was that or you uh, know, the bet that we made was that they, while they could last that long, they weren't going to be used for all that entire time that the industry has marched forward. The panels today are so much more efficient, uh, and better than the ones that were made 15, 20 years ago that um, asset owners and developers, homeowners were going to be tempted to uh, replace them and that it made economic sense to replace them. And we're, we're seeing that already in residential and commercial, um, commercial, uh, rooftop in particular, um, is going through a repowering phase already. Um, and after 15 years, um, sometimes it's as simple as they need to reroof. Ah, well, when you take off and you're reroofing and you have a 220 watt panel, uh, and these old inverters and you know, it just makes sense to put in 600 watt bifacial panels. So we've gotten you know, like IKEA roofs and places like that, you know, where they've reroofed and repowered. Um, but we're starting to see now planning for some large utility scale repowerings. And there's different reasons for that. You know, one is obviously it starts a lot of times with the inverter and I mentioned we're, you know, we're recycling inverters now because those don't last for their warranty is 10 years usually. So their lifetime is Less starts with that. And then you start looking at, you know, well, the panels are rated at lower voltage for what the inverters today are. And it just starts walking you through a series of steps that um, people, the asset owners are looking at full replacement. And let's face it, the panels made 15, 20 years ago, they just weren't as good as they are now. And so you start to see failure modes earlier.

Speaker A: And I'm sure companies and utilities that were early to be adopting larger systems and crunch the numbers and like this is going to pay off. I'm sure they're also, they can look at the numbers they've had, they can look at, they can crunch the numbers again and I'm sure they're just going to figure out what's the best 10, 15, 20 year projects.

Speaker C: They are. And after, and after, you know, 15 years most of these systems have been paid off. Uh, and so now they're looking at, okay, I've got a. And again, those projects from 15, uh, years ago, 20 years ago, those are in really good locations, really good interconnect. Uh, they already have environmental permits. Right, all those things. Um, so that's why what we predicted was that repowering was going to happen on a large scale not in 15 within 20 years, but 15 in that 15 to 20 year time period.

Speaker A: When was it that like Walmart, Ikea, trying to think of the big, uh, early.

Speaker C: Those are about 15 years. Those are, those are 15.

Speaker A: Okay. I was thinking it was like 10 years maybe that they started really putting those. But there's 15 years ago that they were.

Speaker C: Well there are, there were, there were many that are, you know, obviously 10. But, but yeah, no, they're some of the Walmart and ikea, they're about 15 years old now. They have even more that are 12 years old and 10 years old.

Speaker A: Um, uh, but I can remember when that really hit, hit as a, as something to do. Um, but it is, it's a little surprising. It's 15 years ago already. But you know, I know this is life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well that's, that's fascinating. And yeah, so I mean that's happening. I get you're saying the commercial sector is sort of the biggest arena.

Speaker C: Starting first residential is already happening and uh, we see large scale utility repowerings really starting to take off more in about, within two years time.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: As early as next year. Um, some as early as next year, but really I would say in the next, in two, two years. And then by, by the end of this decade, um, We, I believe we're going to start seeing massive repowering on the utility scale side, which is what we're really preparing for. We, we have a, we bought a very large building in Georgia that's um, you know, 250,000 square feet. We, we could at full scale be able to recycle about 10 million panels a year there. So we're, we're preparing, um, you know, for a very large, um, volume coming by the end of this decade.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating because, yeah, it, it felt a little bit like, because of the reasons I brought up, like maybe, maybe it is early. And I'm sure you've heard that a million times. Uh, you've brought it up as well here, that a lot of people are like, it's a bit early for that. Right. And you know, you bring in all of these factors and you can see how it's not early. And then this, this last part that you're focusing on, I mean, it seems like it's perfect timing. Like, this is really. I mean, it feels like you're riding a ginormous wave, surfing a ginormous wave. Because you just think about how exponent. How, how fast the industry grew in the past five to ten years. Um, what do you see as kind of like, how do you see, what do you see as the challenges? I mean, obviously there's just natural. Going to be natural scaling up challenges. But what do you see, as much detail as you can say, as the challenges of the need for this growing exponentially in the coming years? Um, and then the level you mentioned, what was the stat you mentioned on how many TVs are produced and how many solar panels?

Speaker C: 230 million televisions globally per year and 1.2 billion solar panels per year.

Speaker A: And I mean, before I saw you mention that previously and I was like,

Speaker C: it's better than the other way around.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, it is, but it just, I just think, uh, as much as we even in the industry cover how big the industry is now and how much m. How it's the dominant form of new power capacity worldwide and in the US Et cetera, it doesn't click in that way until you bring that comparison in and you're like, wow, it makes TVs, like the TV industry look small. Like that's, that's pretty crazy. But it makes sense when you think, okay, it's energy. Energy is huge and you're the dominant form of new power capacity over 50% of. So it's, it is, but it's just then you think about like you said, the issue of recycling and you want to figure that out so that it's really efficient, really well done, sustainably done and done in a circular way like, and not done in a, in a lame like um, I'm sorry to put, but you know, the way you described it earlier with like the E Waste manual, you know, recyclers, it sounds like you know it was, it's, it was not, it's not been done in a very good way. Like a lot of stuff just ends up trash, not recycled. Um, so I imagine trying to get to a place where you're doing this really well when you're hitting that scale is pretty daunting, right? I mean what, what do you see as the kind of the, the challenges on that, on that uh, riding that wave? We can say.

Speaker C: Yeah, I would say. Well you know it's kind of, you're right. Uh, we're definitely um, riding the wave. But it's kind of like when you're surfing it from the outside it looks real smooth and just great and fun. Right. But uh, when you're in the water it's choppy and there's a lot of challenges uh, you're trying to navigate. So uh, I would say a couple of the key ones. One is just your you know, your basic general day to day scale up of operations. You know, getting the throughputs higher on the machines and um, automating and you know getting the cost down because you know we're, we're, we're not selling diamonds here, right? I mean people aren't going to pay a ton of money to uh, recycle stuff. So you got to just you know, it's just your day to day kind of um, you know, scale up and operations and managing that and um, getting the throughputs and costs sort of your sweet spot.

Speaker A: You like working in that space. It seems like you just keep being in that space, right?

Speaker C: Somehow, Somehow. Uh, yeah, I don't know what it is. Uh, but uh. So, so, so I would say that's, that's, that's, that's a, ah, you know, uh, a big one obviously. You know we've got great people on our team on the uh, technology and the operations side here. So um, you know, better than, quite honestly than a standard recycler would, you know because of what we're um, attempting to do. So like for example my chief operating officer, he's been in the solar industry but also been in the semiconductor industry and he's run fabs right so that's a mindset we bring to this. Um, high volume, low cost, um, but, you know, like, no one's done, um, not run these machines. We had to develop our own machines. So, you know, just going through all of that, the technology curve, um, I would say that's a big one. And then the other one is there's the barriers to entry are low. Right? I mean anyone can say they can recycle a panel. The barriers to do it right are very difficult, Very, very difficult. But the barriers to say you recycle. And so we have, we've had, you know, in the last couple of years, um, I don't know, half a dozen of these sort of players that are pretty unsophisticated coming in. Many of them are local, um, that just try to come in and offer really low price to get the panels. Um, you know, and so here we are, you know, working on doing this at scale, which, you know, means that you're investing a lot. Uh, meanwhile you've got, you know, the scrapyard mentality, players that are there, right? So, um, now, you know, with some of the really big sophisticated players, companies, uh, asset owners, um, I mentioned the likes of sunrun, right? I mean they're just going to do the right thing. Um, and so it's not that big a deal. But there's always a temptation, um, to do this more cheaply. So kind of like balancing the sort of investments we need to make to do things right and scale and high value extraction, um, and the flip side, um, you know, sort of balancing the competition that is coming in, trying to sort of undercut you. The good, the goodness in all that. I would say the silver lining and all that is we are getting our costs down and our value extraction up to the level where I think it'll honestly be hard for others to really do this at, uh, the scale that we're doing because it's taken a lot of investment to do. And I was able to raise, you know, a decent amount. I've raised about close to $70 million of equity capital and about $20 million of debt financing since we started four years ago. And that's a big bet we made. And um, I think the bet was that, hey, we can, we can, we can be the number one player in the space, but we kind of need it. You know, like I tell our partners and customers, like, okay, yes, you can say I'm greedy, but it's actually like, I need that because it's the only way we can actually scale and get the cost down and pay for all the R and D and all of that. You know. Now it doesn't mean that we get every panel, we need every panel. But, but it's, it's a synergistic thing that I, that, that we've worked with customers is like, you know, you want us to really scale this thing and do it right because industry needs that. And you know, like you were saying people that that's one where having come from the industry, um, you know most, most of the companies, they know that we are, we are mes, we're trying to make a great business and trying to make money and all that stuff. But there's a, there's a um, bigger ulterior motive which is to save the planet too here that we're doing this for.

Speaker A: Yeah, and they must, I mean, see that if you were in the solar industry 20 years ago, not five years ago, you know, I'm sure you have great connections and a great pitch for that, you know, to help people see that you're looking at the big picture. But yeah, as you were talking about the you know, low cost, low entry, um, competitors that, that made a lot of sense that you have the challenge of learning to scale up, learning to do it right at the same time that you're competing to do it really cheaply today. So you have the long term goal of doing it at high scale and really well, but the short term goal of having to just like any other business in a kind of newish industry, compete um, uh, on cost with alternatives. Uh, interesting. Uh, so my final, I think final topic. You know, you mentioned other um, metals needing. And uh, I kept thinking of this story of you know, JB Straubel, who was co founder and CTO of Tesla for a long time and then started redwood materials to recycle EV batteries. And it was similar kind of story or feeling I feel like at the time where um, a lot of people like aren't you a bit early for, you know, why are you jumping into this now? Like uh, it seems early, it seems like uh, to be leaving Tesla at that time. Maybe there's other reasons at play, who knows. But um, but his, I don't know. I think he's a brilliant guy who just, who had great vision for that when a lot, when most of the industry didn't. And I'm sure he's doing great stuff at redwood materials. I'm curious how much you look to collaborate with someone like that or look to um, work together or learn with each other or if it's just a completely separate, different thing because you're doing solar panels, you're doing batteries. But, um, it seems like there would be a lot of, uh, uh, stuff that it could be, could be related or could be. Um, interesting to imagine if you had dinner with jb. You're like, let's talk respect. You know, like, very detailed.

Speaker C: Actually, he and I, he and I have, uh, have talked several times. Uh, and uh, I mean he, He's. He's amazing. He's an amazing entrepreneur. And um. And he started Redwood, I think, five years before I started solar cycling. So he was like, way ahead of this thing, you know. Um, now on the battery side, obviously I'm doing it on the solar side. I mean, I think there's.

Speaker A: Yeah. Reasons for that. Like. Yeah, but, yeah, but still you were both. Yeah, very early there.

Speaker C: Uh, I would say that, um, they're quite. Today they're quite different supply chains. Um, and so we, we share a common bond just because we're, you know, working in a similar kind of field and construct, but we don't have a lot of overlap. We've talked sometimes, you know, they may get panels and we get batteries and you know, so, um, we can, we can send those to each other. Um, but it's. Generally speaking, we're. They're really good at collecting batteries, we're really good at collecting solar panels. And so, um, there's not a huge amount of overlap. I do think longer term there will be convergence though. Um, you know, longer term because just if you look at, for example, the renewable ecosystem, right. Um, there's huge amount of batteries going in. And interestingly, you know, there's. There's been, um, uh, a real downturn in the EV landscape in the U.S. unfortunately, we need more EVs, but unfortunately in the last couple years there has been, well, there's been a lot of battery. EV battery plants put in. Well now they're being. They're. They're actually starting to convert those to make stationary storage for, um, for. For uh, renewable power plants. Right. So already you're starting to see a convergence happening there. So I think there's going to be increasing convergence between what a company like Redwood does and a company like Solar Cycle does. Does that mean that they're going to actually fully integrate into one company later or there's going to be several companies that do all of it under one roof? Not 100% sure. Um, could go that way. You, uh, could see that reality. I will tell you that from m. Our perspective at Solar Cycle, at Least handling batteries for our customers and managing the logistics and the um, you know, the final decommissioning to get these off and figuring out how to recycle them where. Whatever we do in house, I don't know. But that's a matter of time. Um, you know, because our customers have already. I mentioned we're already doing inverters and transformers and we're seeing that really ramp. It makes sense for us to handle their batteries as well. Um, now, you know, again, whether we handle that first part, do a lot of the early front end and then work with partners like redwood on the back end, or we take some of that in house or vice versa, I think that still to be determined, but I definitely see conversions happening there.

Speaker A: I wasn't trying to tease you with the question of a merger down the line or I wasn't. It poked my mind, but I was like, I'm not going to ask him this. He's going to be. It's one of those questions, you know, you're like, oh, don't ask me that question. I don't know. I got to talk to a lawyer before I respond to this. But, uh, but I was just honestly just curious like what the current day discussions are like and what the current day like similarities and synergies and. But just, you know, it's uh. They're both so early stage. It feels like, um, uh, it seems like you would have really fun conversations and kind of, you know, kind of funny, uh, challenges that you guys face that are similar, that kind of thing. But uh, but yeah, it does make sense that down the line, you know, you guys might merge or, or integrate processes somehow. But um, yeah, well that's, I mean, very. It's fascinating discussion. I'm. I mean, I'll be completely frank just like everyone else when the recycling came up, I'm like, okay, recycling, you know, it's just not, it just. It's not something that's really stimulating when you first, you know, because there, yeah, it is just an a stage of the cycle of the process that doesn't excite, um, people as much. And then you've got, as you mentioned, with just normal recycling plastics, metals and stuff, you do have issues like it. It's easy to get jaded and get. Be like, uh, I don't know if I really want to learn about this because you end up finding out a lot of stuff is not being recycled as much or as. As you'd like. It's not as, as good as you like. So one of the most Important things to me early on was it seems, uh, you're really passionate about making it as green and making it be done as well as, as possible for, you know, not take any easy routes because it's easier or cheaper, but try to make it as circular.

Speaker C: We want to do it right to the maximum.

Speaker A: So. Any final comments on that or, and, or anything else?

Speaker C: No, no, I think, I think, you know, like I said, I think that I agree with you that recycling is not what, you know, people, uh, it's, it's part of what they consider waste and the back end. But, but I think it's going to become more and more important and relevant, especially as we look at building circular supply chains. And I've talked with some of the largest companies in the world that are really starting to look at circularity strategically and not just from the standpoint of, you know, circularity for circularity's sake, but circularity for ensuring that we have the proper metals and materials for the next generation of products. And so, um, that's, that's really what, you know, our vision is that what we're doing is building a circular economy company, not just a recycling business. And I think that's uh, again, a new world order that we're stepping into.

Speaker A: I love that, Love that. That's a great way to end. So thank you for your time. Thank you, Zach. Appreciate it. Love uh, what you're doing. Nice to finally meet, I guess, after, uh, somehow crossing paths for a long time without meeting. So thank you. Have a good one.

Speaker C: Thank you, Zach M. But.

Speaker B: Thank you for listening to Clean Tech Talk. Join us next time to get your electric fix. If you would like to sponsor our podcast, send us an email@accounts cleantechnica.com that's accurate. O u n t s@cleantechnica.com Thanks.