The Journey to Net Zero

Speaker A: Do you have a tough challenge with your supply chain or logistics? Loguru is the intelligent partner that works globally with manufacturers, retailers and logistics businesses. We help our customers define, buy and safely implement solutions across the supply chain. If you want a more sustainable future for your supply chain, visit loguru.co.uk complete end to end satisfaction guaranteed.

Speaker B: Coming up in.

Speaker C: In this episode, the first thing that really got me onto this whole journey around sustainability was when I was working with a client, there was a big hoo ha, this load that had not turned up. It was urgent, it had to go, it had to get there, had to be turned around, it had to go back. And when it finally arrived, I called the client, said, we've got it, it's late and this is what we're going to do to put it right. And then I actually looked on the manifest and they were novelty plastic elephant poops, so that come all the way from China. And that's when I said, this is crazy.

Speaker B: The Logistics Collective podcast is a series focused on the logistics industry, where there are incredible stories to be told. We'll be speaking with those who've worked and are, uh, working within the industry today. What have been their experiences, good and bad, since joining and would they recommend a career in the industry to others? Here's your host, Malcolm Pope.

Speaker D: Hello and welcome to the next edition of Logistics Collective, the podcast. In this episode, we're dealing with energy transformation. Well, we're supposed to be living in a more sustainable world, um, and how we actually get there can be quite a challenge and, uh, maybe even quite an investment. So what I decided to do is to speak to two industry experts who are here with me today and they're, uh, going to perhaps answer some of my questions and hopefully answer some of yours as well. So with me today I have Stephen Fitter, who will introduce himself shortly, and also a wonderful French Canadian, but we've adopted him in the uk, called Benoit La Flamme as well. So what I'd like to say initially is welcome to you both.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker E: Thank you.

Speaker D: And Stephen, tell us about you then. What's your life been and what are you doing now?

Speaker C: Thanks, Malcolm. Um, my background is in logistics and supply chain and that is over, uh, both operational roles and also in project and programme management. And it's led me to work across different sectors and industries. And I've always liked the logistics industry because of the problem solving aspect of it, but I also love change as well. So project and program management is, uh, a really good match. The reason why I mention this Is because a few years ago it occurred to me, um, that I think within logistics we are facing some massive challenges and transformations that are coming our way. And unless we do something about them, uh, the sector is really going to struggle. And having done the job, I have empathy with operators and the challenge that they're facing. But on the upbeat side, I really think that decarbonization is going to create a lot of opportunity. But with that change and challenge as well, and organizations can be often, uh, poorly equipped to deal with it. And that's hopefully what I can help um, people to do by providing them with the knowledge and the means to get there.

Speaker D: Well, it's good to hear you've got operational experience. Any names you care to share with us?

Speaker C: I worked for DHL for a long time across lots of different contracts.

Speaker D: Oh, the great red and yellow.

Speaker C: That's right.

Speaker D: There we go. So Benoit, bring some Quebecois to us. Um, bring that je ne sais quoi of your experience.

Speaker E: Of course. Uh, so I've been in the UK for six years now. Uh, moved a family after a short stint in Paris. I always wanted to work abroad, uh, and the train came to my station in 2016. So we left for initially a year and never really came back yet. We came back for vacation but not resettled, uh, yet in Canada. So I come from the world of finance. Not the sexy, uh, private investment or venture capital, uh, finance, uh, more the, I call it the greasy part of finance which is financing, uh, trucks and construction equipment initially, uh, forestry equipment as well, crushers, which I absolutely loved early in my career. And I eventually ended up in fleet Management about 10 years ago because I got a bit tired of just doing finance of an asset. I uh, wanted to touch the service element and the in life maintenance of the assets. So uh, I got in fleets, mostly commercial vehicles my entire career really. Uh, I haven't done a whole lot of car fleets. And that got me great, uh, career experiences. I uh, managed um, some global accounts at one point and global relationships with partners. That's what took me to Europe. And um, in 2018 I had a chance to start manag a P and L inside a banking entity as well. So I was four years managing that company until it got sold. We were a little bit too small for the market. And uh, that's been two years now. And I've been really itching to get into the transition phase, uh, the transition space because I can see all the change that uh, operators are facing. Very uh, early days and at the company, uh, I was Running I was trying to support customers through that questioning of what's next after diesel engine. And now for two years I've been wanting to really be in the space, both feet into it. Uh, I've finally managed to find a couple of roles uh, that are fractional, that give me uh, exposure. So first I work for EV Energy which is uh, a transition tool, uh, in consulting practice to help customers transition. And secondly I also work for a uh, consulting firm that's in the district eating um, space. So um, yeah ah, interesting days, a lot of change and I'm quite, quite attracted by change. So uh, I'm really looking to support people through that change and um, and get on the other side uh, still uh, self confident and, and with well working businesses.

Speaker D: That's fantastic and thank you. And I'm now in my fourth decade working within the industry and uh, I've got to be really honest with you, I've been waiting for this transformation for two decades at least. My view is that it is long overdue and within those hills there are gold. Uh, but we just need to find our ah, way of being able to actually access this really gold around sustainability. I think really to that point. I mean we've recently completed a study with five or so major lsps and we asked the question really in terms of their position on um, sustainability and the maturity in terms of sustainability and what they saw was the view forward in terms of energy transformation. And the keynote that I heard within this, I'm never going to reveal confidences but there was a broad difference in terms of levels of maturity across businesses. Um, the general trend is the larger you were, uh, the more mature you tended to be. Um, but there was complete, I won't call it confusion, uh, but there was a diversity of views in terms of what might be powering our vehicles in the future and really what is that timescale going to be. So I wanted to come and ask two experts really here and what do you see are the challenges that the industry are facing at the moment?

Speaker C: Just to add on your point before I answer your question Malcolm, uh, I do a lot of auditing and I do that through esos, which is the Energy Savings Opportunity Scheme. And I do that from a transport aspect. So I'll go in over a period of a few days, look at an operation and see where they can really take some energy out. Ah, and so what that means is that I have a great view of where different people are on those different stages very much from the, from those that don't want to do anything to those that can see it as a, as a great usp, um, for example, and they're basing their proposition on that. So I've had great experience over the last 18 months, I think 49 clients I did. So you see some very small businesses, there's some very large businesses. Um, but some of the challenges are just the same. So the ones that I really want to mention, apart from the obvious ones if you like, so for example the eventual ban on things like diesel, um, with things like SECA as well, um, and other compliance m matters.

Speaker D: So Stephen, for the uninformed, what is seca?

Speaker C: Uh, it's a streamlined energy carbon, uh, reporting. So it's another line of compliance that companies of a certain size have to do. And, and it's more or less aligned with um, with esos, the Energy Savings Opportunity Scheme. And you know, they're having to report and make public uh, their carbon and energy uh, emissions and, and consumption. So that really shines a spotlight on their own operations. And so when it comes to the challenges that soon become apparent, you've got companies that have to respond to these compliance regulations, uh, and requirements. But also as well we've got consumer bases that are becoming a lot more environmentally um, aware and that will change buying habits. We've also got a change of things like powertrains to things like electric which are a lot more capex heavy than they are OPEX heavy. And that changes the ways and the operator models, the way that they've operated for years and they can have an operating model that has built on the ready availability of diesel and petrol and they were trying to undo that in a very short amount of time. And by the way everyone, you need to do this whilst maintaining service levels and also with very tight margins as well. And you can just see how it can be extremely daunting and overwhelming for some of these organizations to approach and

Speaker E: to add to this, what I see as well is given the scale it has, it's possible that people just want to wait it out and see if it gets a bit more clear later down the road. So you've got on one side the government pressing hard on with hard deadlines, the governance, uh, of companies asking for transparency on emissions, really everything pushing the transition. But at the same time you've got something so new, uh, so disruptive that it's daunting to think, okay, can we do all this and keep the lights on? Uh, there's also a need for thinking completely differently from where it used to happen, where you had departments responsible for this and another department responsible for that. And we used to deal with Fleet. And Fleet was master of its own destiny and offering, uh, an available truck for whatever operations used to need, uh, it. And that can't be true anymore. You just can't go and go through your fleet replacement cycle and run it every year and just keep the beat drum going. Uh, it doesn't work. You need to start planning much further ahead. A year out was hard to get from fleet managers or transport managers in the past. Uh, we'd struggle all the time to get orders put in time to, uh, slot within manufacturer, uh, ordering slots. Now if you don't look two years out, you're probably going to be waiting in queue, waiting for energy to be available for your vehicles. So it's a whole change of mindset. And the reality is, um, we heard it, uh, last week, uh, I was at the um, Motor Transport Decarbonization Summit and there was a transport manager there and he said, look, sometimes we don't know and we can be weeks and months just trying to figure out, uh, how things work or how these things work. And there's a lack of knowledge. And it's hard to admit that it's hard to be vulnerable in organizations, even in large ones, um, I guess more so in large ones where there tends to be some politics. You don't want to be the one that says, I actually don't know how to deal with this. So, uh, you know, the human aspect is huge. There's pollution and emissions and governmental guidelines. But, uh, on the other side of this, there's people sometimes who are completely frightened because they can see that big beast coming at them, the wall, coming at them very fast. Uh, and they don't know how to hand, uh, these things. And um, yeah, that's quite a lot. Uh, so no wonder why people, uh, need to get, uh, some support through this.

Speaker D: I find it interesting, I mean the point in terms of being scared. I mean what I will say, uh, throughout my career, that the one learning lesson that I've had is that all emperors are naked. And what I'm trying to say there is this even at the most senior levels, people are struggling with answers, trying to find answers for really difficult questions. I do pose within this to try and drive the thinking with this as to whether or not methodology in terms of risk assessments should be brought into this. So what is the future going to bring? And there's going to be a cost and a capability element within this that drives our path to, uh, more sustainable Solutions coming forward. And so it's looking at what you do today and saying how much of what I do today can I do cost effectively based on a sustainable solution as it stands today and how much is it within the capability both in terms of lead times, transit times, reloadability, all of those things. It's getting down to the crux of understanding this is the extent of change and I always believe in understanding where the risks are and I think that's absolutely key. That might sound overwhelming but I think it's better to be overwhelmed with a plan rather than overwhelmed and just waiting for something to happen. So my next question really is for some of those companies that are overwhelmed by some of the steep changes required by electrification, what are some of the ways that they can make an impact without spending large amounts in capex?

Speaker C: And it's a great question because quite often I hear uh, um, we can't go to electric yet, we can't do this yet, we can't do that investment yet. And quite often I turn around and say, well actually what about some of the low hanging fruit? I know it's a bit of a saying but it does perfectly describe it. What are you doing with driver training? What are you doing with things like fuel additives? What are you doing with route optimization and vehicle fill and some of the other things that you just mentioned there Malcolm? Because actually some of these things good, uh, fleet managers have just been doing for decades but they just probably haven't been doing it in the name of sustainability. And so obviously to be more efficient you are going to reduce your emissions, you're going to make better use of your energy and lots of that kind of stuff you can get on with today. And really you should be getting on with it today as just as part of um, continuous improvement and best practice. But quite often um, when I talk to a, ah, company that's the first bit that I go to. What are you, what are you doing with what you, what you've got today? But then also to your point, um, about purpose really I ask that question quite often which is why have you got vehicles? And sometimes the people look at me like I've gone nuts which is because they, because I've got to move that stuff over there into which back I go Ron, let's actually, let's push the reason, let's question the as is why have you got that vehicle and what should it look like? Do you even need that vehicle? What stuff is it moving around? Because you need to take it back to basics sometime to make sure that you know you've got the right solution for the right user case.

Speaker D: Thanks Steven.

Speaker E: On my side, what I think is important is really to try to get your head out of the forest and look uh, at the top of the trees a little bit, uh, and really craft a plan where you break the problems in manageable bits like we tend to do whenever there's something big hitting us. You need to find people who will have time and scope to think strategically and engage with resource. Take the time. Uh, the last thing you want is to have people come back from a, uh, one day conference and be completely sucked in by their day to day and not even able to digest what they just learned. So it's all about freeing up people that will really guide that long term transition. Addressing the bits you can do now. Uh, Steven, I totally agree with you. Sometimes we think of, ah, uh, well, this is so big, this is so enormous. Actually just start doing some bits now that you can do that are manageable. And actually when you get in the doing, you actually realize that there's a slight change of culture. Um, people all of a sudden start to uh, follow along and then you're no longer uh, a lone warrior in that initiative, trying to do it all by yourself. You're actually supported by people around you that actually are carrying some of the load with you. So uh, create that virtuous cycle of change and it doesn't have to be ripping up your parking lot right away and putting a bunch of chargers right away. It can be as easy as everybody tuned in to the same song and looking at ways we can optimize the way we burn stuff today so that we get in the mindset of transitioning, of decarbonizing that way first and finding the time to really do the right level of planning and engagement with the different areas of the business that actually now need to be involved. If you're always running like a headless chicken, there's no way you're going to tackle something as big.

Speaker D: I so wanted you to say Poulet Santat the uh, bus.

Speaker E: Um, I would have said it differently.

Speaker D: Good.

Speaker E: But I heard what you said.

Speaker D: Tell me how to say it properly then.

Speaker E: Come in. Paul Sant.

Speaker D: Paul Santet. Okay, nearly, nearly. I'm having French lessons while we're on here, which uh, I think is amazing. I sort of look at this, I mean the first thing that I would state, whilst we have a stated journey to net zero, um, any reduction on that journey is good, it's positive. And here's the thing that I see, um, I don't see people selling the space that they have. And what do I mean by that? I don't see large scale organizations really looking quite closely at the big picture and the big data picture and say how could we organize this better even within ourselves? So could we actually collaborate within ourselves, first view? And then secondly could we collaborate with other people to actually fill that gap? Because whether or not there's an argument that says, well, what's empty running? Some people say it's 11%, governments generally say it's 25%. And I think the difference between those two are all about subcontracting. So a company will look at it and say I've subcontracted it, the return load is not my responsibility. And in essence financially, no it's not. But from a sustainability argument I would say yes it is. Um, but there'll be others that will have written the laws in terms of, or the regulations in terms of how you write this that may well have a point of disagreement. But for me that sort of starting point is if you're going to go on a journey towards net zero, uh, be sure, be sure, be sure that um, you're giving uh, vehicle manufacturers and people uh, that are investing in energy and ah, new forms of energy time to generate um, the real working solutions, the real cost effective working solutions for the future. So there'll be part of your business that today you could use an electrified vehicle for, but there are going to be other parts of your business, hence my question about risk assessment in terms of cost and capability that aren't currently in play. So what you should do for the stuff that's not currently, currently in play is use different processes in order to be able to say how can we actually save carbon in terms of this? And trust me, I've had experience within one business of getting two parts of that business to talk to one another and millions of miles were saved and they hadn't thought about it until I spoke to them about it. So it's interesting. So according to you and um, to you both, what's the most important thing to consider when going through periods of change?

Speaker C: Change or change in general, the big thing for me is around people and empathy. We've spoken a lot about people maybe feeling overwhelmed at the moment, um, new territory for them, uh, out of their comfort zone. And you've, you've got to have empathy for people and because empathy for the people within a business is empathy for the business overall, isn't it? And so you've got to go in with that mindset that that um, will touch all of those um, people and the functions and the roles that they have and start to really understand what the impact is going to be of this change. And what I'd recommend thoroughly to anybody undertaking a change of such size is to take a step back first because I've also seen where the companies have, you know, albeit they want to do the right thing, they've just jumped in and maybe just gone and got an electric van and then they've, they've just retrofitted it into a diesel operating model and their conclusions are electric is rubbish, when in fact what they haven't done has got the right um, new processes for it. They haven't thought about how it's going to be used differently, whether that be through driver or supporting infrastructure and all of these things. So they're not really giving the task, um, the best chance that it can to give the best results. And also following on for Benoit's endpoint earlier on about someone going back from a summit with a head full of ideas and then next day they're faced with a calendar full of meetings and they probably just don't have the bandwidth. They've got the day job to do. And, and as I remember a lot of my transport, um, operator days, there's a lot of time spent firefighting and motorway closes or an emergency order comes through or many of these things as well. So to have a, uh, mature thought about how change is not going to just affect the business but how you're going to manage that and your people, your experience, people you're expecting to carry out and initiate that change is very important.

Speaker D: I think empathy is always very, very important and giving people space to think. And I think the danger without help is that a lot of organizations do not create that space to think, to innovate. And your point earlier in terms of, well, I need to do something for sustainability, let's buy an electric truck, um, without actually thinking everything through, um, ooh, greenwashing anybody, um, uh, it really does deserve to have some deeper thinking, um, around, around this, uh, you know, really around this. And even when I'm looking at it at maybe very senior posts within large scale organizations, when there is a, there's a confusion, you know, I'm not saying these organizations are unprofessional, far from it. But there is a confusion on what path we need to follow. And I think what we need to develop is an evolutionary model that helps businesses go through there. And sorry, Benoit, I've dashed in again So I shall be quiet. Go on, Benoit. What do you think?

Speaker E: I was so clear on what I was going to say. But no, no, it's still clear to me. It's all about working with the team. Uh, the first question is how are people being managed and how frequently can they voice some of their concerns honestly, transparently about what they don't know. Um, if it's unknown, then it's very, very hard to support them through a period of change. So, um, having that space and time to have a proper one to one where the manager really understands the gaps, understands how that person needs to be supported, and oftentimes I've seen it in many organizations. Your team leaders, your middle managers are just, uh, really good, competent doers that ended up in charge of a bunch of people and they're not equipped to manage property. They don't know how to do, uh, a proper one to one. It's just mechanical. Um, and, uh, we could talk about handling, uh, supplier relationships as well, or partner relationships, which is, I know, ah, a subject quite, uh, dear to you, Malcolm, uh, is having that time to go deep, um, with your employees, uh, between that employee manager relationship, uh, with your partners, uh, getting them beyond the usual routine check, uh, on KPIs and actually talk about what do they see, uh, going through, uh, what do they see happening, uh, and having the opportunity as a client also to share what's your strategic plan, where you're taking the business and what decisions you're taking so that they don't and up being um, uh, caught off guard. So it's all about, uh, I mean, your example earlier about filling trucks, uh, it's all a question of collaboration. And you can't make good collaboration happen if everybody's playing with their cards close to their chest. Uh, that's true in an employee relationship. That's true in a partner, a supplier relationship. Uh, so I'm a huge fan of transparency. Um, I've had some hard lessons of too much transparency in the past, but I think it helps, uh, create really strong partnerships.

Speaker D: I thoroughly agree. I think most organizations, they're busy doing the day job, they're busy doing what they need to do to turn a coin, to make a profit, to keep people employed, to keep customers happy, to keep suppliers moving. Uh, they're doing all of this day to day stuff, stuff. So thinking about that, I mean that might be one obstacle. But do you have in mind any other obstacles that prevent organizations from successfully transforming themselves beyond the day to day?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think the appreciation or lack of Appreciation of the size of the change that is going to be coming their way is a big thing. We've spoken already, um, in the last half hour or so about mindset changes and how that can be difficult and it is too easy, I think at the moment to um, not do so much on it. You can kind of get away with it at the moment. And I wonder what you both think when I say that in the future, do you think we'll look back at 2024 and go, we actually had it quite easy then. We didn't have as much pressure. We did have some compliance things coming along, asking us about carbon and such like, but it wasn't to the extent it was today.

Speaker D: I just wonder whether or not there is somebody out there that is thinking differently now and really embracing the future and whether they will turn around and say, well, absolutely wonderful. I'm so far ahead of the game. I got all my homework in on time, which is really annoying, but I was absolutely ahead of the game and I got it right. Or whether or not you might have some larger scale businesses that are looking and saying, well, it's not in this year's results. It's not going to impact me whether or not I win this business or not. And 2035 sounds a long time away and I'd probably be, I'll give you one quote, unquote, well, I'm going to be retired then. I could be expired then, let alone retired. And I still care about this. And you have to leave behind some legacy of thinking and learning. And my response to you is that sitting in the future and looking back at 2024, I think it'll be regret. And that's what I'm looking at at this point in time. Understanding all of the other pressures that are in place, I still think it'll be one of regret.

Speaker C: I think you're absolutely right. And when I've seen some bizarre actions, and I've heard some bizarre things as well, very much in the vein of what you've just said, which is if I'll be long retired or I've heard even worse than that, um, before my business has an electric vehicle, I've heard that kind of mindset and I can't help but feel sorry for the company that they are going to be leaving behind because they're going to put them on the wrong footing. But there is that when, if we go back to that sort of 2035, it does seem like a long way. And in our own lives, if you think how old you're going to be and my kids are going to be, you know, 11 years older and that, that feels like a long time away. But when you start talking about large fleets and operations and where you need to get to and how that change needs to happen and the scale of it, it feels like tomorrow for lots of operations, it doesn't feel that far ahead at all.

Speaker D: I believe this changes everything. If you try and do it now, it changes everything. Your only real solution in terms of it not changing everything is that somebody invents for the same price as an existing lgv, hgv, um, that runs on diesel, that does it at the same price as an electric vehicle with the same range, with the same capacity, with the same recharging ability. Uh, and you get all of that done and you don't really have to change much and that I just wonder whether or not people, I mean industry is capable of great innovation. Do you think that people are holding back and saying well, it's not really quite there and things are really very expensive and they're not particularly functional at this point in time and let's just hope and wait and see. Do you think there's some of that going, going on?

Speaker C: I think there's a lot of that going on. Uh, but some of that is dressed up as procrastination. I, I hear quite often, I don't want to talk, I don't want to get into rabbit hole of hydrogen. But here quite often we're waiting for hydrogen. And I say well okay, that's fine, but what are you doing today? So it goes back to those points, uh, that we were saying earlier on. What can you do today through driver training or fuel additives, aerodynamics, tire choice and all that type of stuff that all marginal gains but sum up to some, some really big wins and the answer is usually nothing. And you think, well, I think the best thing going into a uh, a change program like this is don't think you're going to have all the answers straight away. You're not going to sit down in a traditional project Prince 2 methodology and say, well, let's list out all the things that we're going to do between now and 2035 or 2040 or whenever your net zero target is and have all the answers. But what you do need to do is have that plan. Um, and I say people, it's okay to have. Yes, I know what I'm going to do with, I'll just say driver training again because I can do something in that today. And that's in my short term, um, what's in my midterm? Well my midterm might be aerodynamics, so we're going to have to invest a bit more in that. But there's something there. But then in the long term, where I've got a particularly tricky geographical area which I know isn't very well served by electric infrastructure or has other operational demands, which means you can't make the change at the moment, that's okay. Let's get on with the stuff we can get on with and maybe put a placeholder in for right in six months time or a year's time. Let's look at that long term plan again. What has changed? What can we go back and visit? But certainly don't just go, well I've got that one user case in the Highlands of Scotland or wherever it should be, which means I'm okay to do nothing for now.

Speaker D: Thanks Steven and Benoit. Thinking about obstacles.

Speaker E: What I was uh, clearly thinking about is uh, I didn't mention that in my bio earlier but uh, the deep motivation in me to come and support that industry and feed the fire of change is uh, I'm frustrated, uh, as a kid who I uh, still see myself as young, uh, I still got 20 or 30 years left to work but uh, I've got 20 years of experience now so I'm kind of sitting mid career and I'm frustrated to look at how long we waited to reduce carbon emissions. I look at all those heat charts and I'm so frustrated. I mean I see it as the same as saving for your retirement, uh, which uh, probably we won't get the chance to enjoy in our generation. I think we're probably going to die at work uh, because we'll never be rich enough people to uh, really retire and get the state to pay for us. But that's for another podcast. But I see it as um, a savings. If you started the first job you had, uh, if you started saving a little bit, bit, the mountain is not unsurmountable. Uh, when you get in your 50s and 60s, if you uh, put it out to the end like we have done, um, as businesses for years and years and years, well the more you wait, the change needs to be and the more drastic the costs are going to be. So I see this as let's make something right away. Uh, why have we not done anything earlier? Um, but now is the time to change. One of the obstacles I see is uh, lack of collaboration. You can see it. I cannot believe how many different, smaller voices we have for this industry, we should have one voice when we address the government. Why have we got that many different organizations?

Speaker D: To be fair, the multiples of organizations that are out there representing the industry, um, they are making moves to actually, I mean, I've had the great pleasure of, of interviewing Phil Rowe from Logistics UK and Claire Bottle from UCWA and Richard Smith from the rha. And I think they're doing their best to begin to take a more coordinated approach between them and the other, uh, professional bodies within the industry to try and speak to this. So, um, I think that's already acknowledged. I think we need to. For me it is entrenched thinking is about sitting there and saying, saying, well, the enemy will go away and the enemy here being the one of climate change. And that entrenched thinking is not going to work and it's not going to allow you to go and seek the horizons and say, well, okay, what new solutions are out there? I think what you've got to come up with is a program for change. And I think you've got to do that baseline risk assessment and look at the capability of the solutions around you. And um, where do you go with it? And I mean, do you think we are entering this area, this era of collaboration across industry players and um, what do you see as some of the benefits of working collaboratively? Because I need to shut the hell up here because I've been focused in the area of collaboration for 20 odd years. And if you want to talk about a buildup of frustration, try it for 25 years of being frustrated about why we're not moving in, uh, what I would say is a more balanced and more considered direction. And why have we missed all of the opportunities that we could have had, um, all those years ago by actually just thinking a little bit differently? We could have given ourselves a head start.

Speaker E: Yeah. So, uh, it's great to, uh, see there's uh, a waking up to the need to be collaborating. And again, it's better to be starting in the right direction rather than all of a sudden thinking magically that, uh, everything's going to happen all at once. Um, another way, uh, of collaborating is also to look at what's happening elsewhere. The US government has put tremendous amount of money in transition funds. Uh, and there's probably some examples to look at. In the Nordics, there's been a bit more change happening in the bus sector. There's been evidence of a transition there as well. How can we use some of those lessons learned and bring them across, uh, avoid thinking in an echo Chamber and really open up your blinders and look at what's happening elsewhere because there are cases you can learn from and bring in to speed up the change.

Speaker D: So let me stop being so activist, um, or as, uh, pain in the ass, as some people would say of me. Um, if we're looking in terms of business, I mean, what effect does the energy transition have on business strategy, do you feel?

Speaker C: I think it has, um, everything to do with business strategy. Uh, it's a shift not just for the logistics industry, but for business as a whole, the economy as a whole, society as a whole. And therefore businesses need to be thinking in the future, uh, how they're going to act, um, and the different opportunities that come from that. So, yes, you could have a strategic and tactical plan to address the ban on internal combustion engines, of course, and that's a very important thing. But then you also need to think about opportunities like energy reselling, for example, if you've got the facilities to do it and you can do it, and that's another revenue stream you can potentially have. And then that goes to collaboration. Then you work with another company that says, you deliver to us two times a day, do you want some charging? And then, you know, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, type thing. And there's that collaboration that with those business opportunities. But I mean, I've probably gone down a rabbit hole into a specific one there. But the point is, is it's about thinking outside of the box. The cliche, but it's true to say, well, actually, what else? If, uh, uh, our operating model is going to look very different in the future, how can we make it work the best for us with the new assets we're going to have, the new ways of working we're going to have. And, and also as well, from a, you know, from a fleet specific point of view, being a lot more, I think, a lot more strategic around, uh, around vehicles. Not only just the modes that they use, the size of them and, and how they fill them as well, because I think we are probably guilty as an industry of how many boxes have you got me to shift? Okay, it turns out to be that many loads, I'll get you that many vehicles. When in fact we've all seen, seen shocking wastes of packaging, for example, that could be vastly reduced. And I'm sure there's a, if there's a few marketing people listening to me on this podcast might be thinking, yeah, but it's not that simple. I probably think it isn't that simple.

Speaker D: But is this. You're starting a campaign to ban Easter eggs?

Speaker C: Well, well, quite, quite. And, uh, yeah, I don't know if this is appropriate or not, but the first thing that really got me onto this whole journey around sustainability was when I was working with a client one year years ago and, um, there was a big H car for this, this load that had not turned up. And, um, it was urgent, it had to go, it had to get there, had to be turned around, it had to go back. And when it finally arrived, I called the client, said, we've got it, it's late and this is what we're going to do to put it right. And then I actually looked on the manifest and they were plastic elephant poos. Novelty plastic elephant poops. So that come all the way from China. And that's when I said, this is crazy. So that's the kind of thing that we need to go. Uh, working collaborative. It's very easy to assume working collaborative with uh, another LSP just down the road or whoever. But it's also about working internally as well. So what are the products that we are selling, how we are packaging, what is the impact on the transport, the lead times we're offering to our customers as well? I'm not a fan of same day delivery, next day deliveries. It can put so much strains on supply chains and there's that sort of education to customers as well that if we can get out there, and I know it's a lot easier said than done, Malcolm, but if we can get that message out there to people that this is the effect that it has, that your item has to be at 2, you know, has to be on your doorstep the next day, does it? That's the kind of things that we need to get to. That has big effects on logistics.

Speaker D: This is the debate between need and want. And I, I remember talking to, uh, shall we say one of the major parcel consolidators without revealing any names. And, um, the keynote there is that, you know, their thinking was, well, maybe we need to have a sustainability button, um, so that when we're ordering something, you know, need versus want. So if I've got a disease and I need to have a drug to actually make me well, and I really need that right now, then that's a true right now. But in the search for plastic elephant poo with the best will in the world, please don't deliver it to me. But the other side of it is that why, oh, why, oh, why are we getting excited about stuff that's delivered right damn now and Please don't get me started on really, the view is, well, I can have it, uh, because I can't be bothered shuffling down in my slippers to my local convenience store. I can go and have my products delivered at a higher cost and what that is doing. And, um, then don't get me started on when we're actually looking at what is the differential. So I've been searching and searching and maybe you too can help me with this. What is it better to go for? If I'm looking at my weekly groceries, is it better if I drive to my local store? Now I know that by itself brings a whole series of questions. So I'm driving. First off, what am I driving, you know, is a horrible old chuggy diesel or am I, am I doing it in an electric car that has been charged by the solar panels on top of my roof, which, you know, which has it been, uh, or is it better for me to waste inside and allow some, somebody else to come and deliver it for me?

Speaker E: I'm not sure. Personally, I still have the internal debate, uh, being in London and actually we can go down the street on foot and I've got two major brands, uh, two major grocery chains right on my doorstep. So I still have the debate, or do I go that or do I do a bigger order on a weekly basis and plan it ahead? In my case, I'm not sure what's best. But, uh, there was a case where we were up at the top of Scotland on vacation and it was a half an hour drive to get the Thurso and a half an hour drive to get back. And in my mind having the grocery store load a three and a half ton truck full of groceries and deliver the whole town made the most sense. So it's not always black or white, sometimes it's gray. But in this case it's absolutely, I'm absolutely confident. If you can force people with pricing as well to fill up that truck, uh, and encourage them to put their groceries on board of that truck and you avoid that journey. 20 minutes, half an hour in an area where everybody, uh, drives, uh, petrol and diesel cars. I'm absolutely confident you've got a better outcome for the planet there.

Speaker D: But what I would say, and very respectfully say that is based on a feeling, rather than what I would say is an ordinary it that's gone through and say what, what, you know, what is best. I've sat down, um, you know, with a piece of paper and worked it out. And um, for me, overall traditional shopping was better and it's on the basis of it is that argument. It depends. So where is your home delivery coming from? What is the distances between the stop? What is the likely load fill across all, all of that. But there isn't really any information that is supporting that I can see that says well okay, if I want to make that decision, how do I do it? So this is rather than legislated sustainability. This is people. There is a proportion of society that are very interested in this and they don't necessarily have a sustainable option. I had one client asking me to say well could you please make sure that all of my distribution in the UK is net zero. And I had to give them the really honest answer is without actually buying a load of horses and carts. No. Uh, in terms of the, you know, in terms of the pattern of distribution um, that you have and the scale of distribution that you have, the answer is no. Um, so I think it's interesting, I think it's interesting but I do think that the industry is only scratching the surface of it at the moment.

Speaker E: One thing is sure is that the more information will be available for the person clicking the button or putting the order to make that informed decision, the better it's going to be in terms of outcomes. Uh, because I so wish that uh, if I knew the blueberries I ordered online were from uh, Africa, I would have not ordered uh, them. But uh, yeah, that's another debate. But back I just wanted to add uh, one more point on business strategy. Uh we talked about, about online ordering right there. Uh, that's one thing I think as uh an industry we need to start including in our business strategy sessions is where could our competition could come from in the near future. Uh, that's one point. The other point that I think is quite important as well is we tend to take decarbonization decisions based on assuming a um, relatively stable curve current reality with um, combustion engines. Uh, but if you're looking at the five, seven, eight year cycle, uh, and you start looking at how quickly things can change, one thing very, uh, few people in my understanding include is the uh, potential new costs that will come for not doing anything or for not going fast enough in the transition. So uh, in the near future I could imagine government starting to use a bit more of a stick approach or customers really uh, forcing harder. So the cost of waiting I think uh, is something that needs to become part of strategy or the cost of not doing because it's inevitably going to be hitting your uh, business at some point in the near future.

Speaker D: I certainly don't disagree with what you've said. Um, my point of worry, but perhaps not for today but for another day is this will drive inflation um, in the areas that probably some of the, the less well to do folks that we have in society is that they are, they're going to bear an unequal cost in terms of this. That's my fear in terms of if we do it in the wrong way the most vulnerable in society will actually be hit harder in terms of this. But I'll move on. And really thinking about what we mentioned earlier earlier, um, I mean what are some of the here and now actions a business could take to start moving in the right direction do you think?

Speaker C: Well we've covered quite a few earlier. Uh, um, I think we haven't really spoke about um route optimization and planning really. That's something that I speak with companies um, very often on and then that's something that's becoming a lot more sophisticated um with um, software applications and developments uh, that are now on the market from use of artificial intelligence to um, things like digital twins as well which um, I look at solutions such as digital twins as having an extra pair of hands in the transport office really to really get under the skin of what the fleet is doing. But obviously those kind of things do um, have of investment that's required into them and some time to get up and running within your business. But good old fashioned decent planning of your routes and optimization is, is something that you can do relatively easy and again you should be doing lots uh, of companies that um, I, I work with have a base bus stop mentality routing um, which can be fine for lots of uh, places um but for others it's not, it's just the easier way of doing it which is, is a poor way of looking at I think because you know um, an investment in decent planning and some planning software will yield great results. And I do find it quite surprising how many companies don't have some of these basics in place. I got asked a question not so long ago. Someone said to me uh uh, is telematics mandatory? And I said no, it's not mandatory at all. She goes but everyone's got it right. I said no they haven't. And I, it's started. I haven't done the percentage Malcolm, but I would say off the top of my head it's about 20% of all those companies I looked at during the ESOS, which was 49 different clients. Yeah, about 20% of them didn't have any sort of um, data insight and others had telematics. And this is another good point as well. I really wanted but I like to think it is a good point anyway, which is it's all only good having telematics, but you need to do something with that data. And this is the number one recommendation I have to everybody. Nobody you know is to measure is to manage another cliche, but it's absolutely true. So have a look at what your fleet is doing, look at where they're going, what that journey is being done for and how efficient that vehicle is being used. So many companies don't even, not only don't have view of the data, but those that do have view of the data don't actually do anything with it.

Speaker D: I wonder how many conversations are had with a logistics company going to its customers and saying, playing, um, if we could change your delivery slot, uh, or your delivery day and if we could change your delivery frequency, we could save this much CO2. I wonder how often that happens.

Speaker C: Not very often I think.

Speaker D: And um, I wonder then from a customer perspective what would their views be about that. I'm seeing very large scale businesses struggling with Scope three and this to me is that there needs to be a mindset change. But I mean. Benoit M. Have you got any more to say on this question?

Speaker E: Well, uh, just to finish, continue on the thought you had there. Uh, how can you bring what could be maybe a crazy idea in front of a customer? Well, if you don't have that partnership mindset, you probably don't stand the chance to bring up the conversation. But if you are both looking on both sides of the fence uh, at doing something positive for the planet, but, and you're in a true partnership, then that could be possible to bring it to the floor and discuss it. The other thing I would add would be if you're, I came from uh, many years in the financial services. So governance is everywhere in financial services. Uh, and I find having great um, governance really helps keep you in a virtuous cycle. So there are habits that keep forcing you to pull out that plan and revisit it. So uh, the first instance of governance for big companies is going to be their board. And uh, a lot of managers hate the board event. Actually that board is something that forces you to prepare and review your plans and review what you talked about last time and get on the front foot, uh, to be ready for that board session. So if you can see it as a positive event that keeps you on track with proposing fresh ideas and driving forward change, uh, that's good. But uh, what else can you put on side of the board? If it's an annual event, it's not enough. You need to find ways of having virtuous cycles that keep you on track, that keep you thinking strategically. Because if you only do that once a year, and that's only for large organizations, a lot of small organizations don't even have a real board. It's just a paper exercise. Well, if you are, are in the smaller uh, size business of the industry, why don't you have a board? Why don't you force yourself at least once a year to think through strategically and be challenged on your plans? And what more can you do to keep being outside of the day to day and into the long term or

Speaker D: indeed if that's uncomfortable, find some help out there to help you think strategically. Um, we've covered a lot and we've probably overrun a little bit. And I'm going to make a proposal here now for an episode. Episode 2 I think in the episode 2 I think we need to go and explore data. I think we need to explore what are the unresolved problems. And there are quite a few unresolved problems. And I also think um, certainty of legislation is going to be an interesting one. Um, you mentioned the US and their investment in terms of sustainable. Well, um, we have an election and um, perhaps the focus is maybe going to change. Um, and um, the way I rationalize it is that in the first stages of sustainability and really achieving it, this is about profitability. And so if you can't speak to one arena, speak to actually becoming more efficient and therefore more profitable and therefore for as a, a little bit of a subtext, you are sustainable as well. I think it's interesting. I, I, I think the, the recent statement by uh, our Prime Minister from COP 29 was interesting and I always think it's fascinating that I wonder, and here's my sort of parting thought before I give you uh, a chance to come in. How connected are uh, the commitments made at this sort of level level to what the reality is on the ground and how connected is a target to viable solutions to achieve it? So I'm just wondering in terms of what the thinking process is. It needs to happen. I get that. But pragmatism rules, okay. In my view.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's a, uh, that's the, it's a great question of how connected they are. I find quite often with companies, one or two things, uh, number one being we've committed to net zero by 2030. How am I going to get there Which I find absolutely, uh, bonkers. If I, if, if they're not doing any due diligence or looking into it. I've seen great reveals, public reveals. We're going to be net zero by 2030. How, um, am I going to, how am I going to take that out of my vehicles? Well that's the other thing. But I think with the targets that we have in place, I think from, from net zero, um, I think he said 81% by 2035, correct?

Speaker D: 88. I thought it was 88.

Speaker C: Was it? Yeah, 88%. There are a lot of unanswered questions for me about how we do that with uh, the fleets that we have running around this country. Um, I think without some real support, both financially regulatory and advice and guidance, really it seems like a long shot.

Speaker E: I would say it's quite evident that uh, things have not been completely reversed engineered, reversed engineered to completely match up to deliverable outcomes and actions on the ground. Uh, that's quite evident. But I think, uh, we are where we are because we have waited for quite some time and we're now at the stage of saying that's where we need to get to and let's drive some urgency to make it and uh, we better shoot for the stars and land on top of the trees than just say we can't do it, can't do it, can't do it. And we sit on our hands for another 20 years. Uh, it would have been less painful if we would have started the transitions uh, ten years ago. But we are where we are. So we need to shoot high and do absolutely everything we can, um, by starting with the bits we can do now and uh, actually plan for going as bold as possible, uh, in the future when technology stabilizes, uh, and new opportunities come forward. And we could end up being surprised. Uh, we have been surprised in certain sectors of the economy, like how quickly we could take up wind and how quickly solar has become cheaper. So let's continue to be bold and let's continue to shoot with uh, ambition, targets and deadlines. Because we've tried the no regulation route and it hasn't really, really given us huge results, hasn't it?

Speaker D: I guess in terms of shooting for the stars is interesting. I, I would rather, um, go to um, J.F. kennedy more than anything else. Um, and I, I guess within the, you know, choosing to be on the moon and shooting for the moon, you, if you're going to do that, you're going to have to get there. And I think this is an imperative in Itself, Um, politics is a game and anybody that leads has to set some notional direction. And I'm not so uncomfortable kind as to say they need to have everything solved. Um, but we can have an ambition. But what I see at the moment is that more work desperately needs to be done to actually put the wheels under the strategy in order to be able to get to net zero. I think people need to stop being afraid of it and they need to get a grip with it and understand and begin to understand what is the situation now, what is the art of the pragmatic and practical to today and what then are the key developments and key changes that could be made. I mean one whole area we've not discussed is intermodality and you carbon benefit through intermodality and it's a long term frustration of me of being based on an island when we do very, very little. Intra island, uh, on the island of Great Britain moves in terms of using sea freight, um, you would look at it in terms of probably um, more carbon neutral to actually build ferry terminals than it is to build long high speed railway lines. And it's certainly more sustainable to move product by ship than it is by truck or indeed by rail. So how do you actually put this together? And um, the view we come back to, I think where we will start next time, which is data, which is if we're not using data to actually tell us where we can be and tell us what the possibility are and actually get us innovating, where the hell are we going to be? I think what uh, yourselves are doing within this in terms of driving, thinking and working with the industry on this is noble and damned amazing and I'd encourage anybody that is facing a problem like this to please come engage with Steven and Benoit and help you get a proper plan together and um, maybe have a plan that will surprise you in turn terms of it could actually deliver you bottom line benefits in the, in the early stages of this. So I think that's important. So Stephen Benoit, uh, for this episode because I've, I've wrote you into a second episode because I talk too much. Thank you ever so much for being in this podcast. I hope you found it interesting.

Speaker C: I certainly have found it very interesting and very enjoyable. Thank you Malcolm.

Speaker E: Same here. And uh, looking forward to uh, episode two.

Speaker D: Thank you gentlemen so much. Um, so if you have liked what you've heard today, please feel free to visit on logisticscollective.com and you can interact, you can send us voice messages and text messages, uh, around any of the podcasts we put up on there. And please think about liking and following us on all of the major podcast platforms, for example Spotify, so that you can get an alert when the next podcast is due out. And I'm making 2025 for the podcast channel, an area that is thinking about sustainability in the brain broadest sense. And that for me, I think is going to be, um, my thread and my little help to gift some thinking in what I believe is the right direction in terms of sustainability going forward. So hope you enjoyed it. All the very best to you. Goodbye.

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