Episode No.184 - Chris Ridge - TICA

Speaker A: Good morning, good afternoon and good evening. This is Energy Speaks back, powered by B2B Energy. My name is Paul Webb, the founder of B2B Energy and I'm also your host. And each week I bring to you energy experts from around the world. This is episode 184. Our purpose, as always, is to provide a good understanding of energy management knowledge from around the world which is available today for us to deliver savings that impact on our planet. Welcome energy enthusiasts to another enlightening episode of Energy Speaks Back. Today we focus on the critical role of thermal, uh, insulation in driving energy efficiency, reducing waste and delivering practical low cost carbon savings. This episode is a face to face conversation with B2B energy partner Tika, the thermal insulation Contractors Association. And while I've traveled the world podcasting and meeting energy leaders from every corner, today I'm um, back in the UK supporting the up and coming paper focused on prioritizing thermal insulation. So without any further ado, let's talk about prioritizing insulation with Chris Ridge from tikka.

Speaker B: Good morning Chris, how are you today?

Speaker C: I'm fine, thank you, Paul, how are you?

Speaker B: I'm very well, thanks. You have a good journey down? You've come down by train?

Speaker C: Yes, I did, yeah, yeah, absolutely perfect. Can't complain.

Speaker B: It's funny in it sometimes you can say yes, perfect and there's always the little hiccups that uh, sometimes we're hit with.

Speaker C: I've had plenty of.

Speaker B: Generally it's pretty good, isn't it?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. You know you get your good and sometimes you get your bad and when

Speaker B: it's bad it's, yeah, very bad. It's all good. When it's good, it's very good.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: But the important thing for me is when you're using the train, I've travelled in by train as well. It's the carbon footprint. I always think I'm contributing to the carbon footprint rather than driving a car, etc.

Speaker C: Yeah. So we actually look at that at TIKA as well and we actually um, uh, take the data for uh, when people have traveled. Particularly London is an important place for us to be at. So, so we do, we take all that into account and we look at that and we compare it to the car journeys and I guess it's what a lot of businesses are uh, trying to do now. Yeah, brilliant.

Speaker B: So we have met before, I've spoken loads of times. This is the first time we've had a face to face. So it's great to have the face to face as always. So we've met before, we've been talking about, um, your role as an organization and as an individual. So just for the benefit of our audience, can you give some background to you personally and then we sort of migrate into your business and what you're doing?

Speaker C: Okay, yes. Yeah. So I've been at tika, the Thermal Insulation Contractors association for uh. It'll be five years actually this summer. So that has gone very quickly. I've uh, got a background in the uh, thermal insulation market. So just for, um, just for clarity, because we do get asked this a lot. When I talk thermal insulation, I'm thinking pipe work, duct work and vessels and things like that. So not your structural insulation, but very much around your building services elements. So my background was in manufacturing, um, uh, of those kind of products before that. And then, uh. Go right back to the beginning when uh, my first real job after school was working for the Midlands Electricity Board. And actually, uh, yeah, um.

Speaker B: Because with that accent you're from the Midlands.

Speaker C: Oh, there's no. I was born in Bristol, believe it or not. Well, yeah, in between Bristol and Bath, to be precise, is where I lived the first four years of my life. But yeah, I've definitely, uh, acquired the Black country accent, I think. So, uh, yes, so. But yeah, I started really with MEB understanding it was my first real taste of um, energy management and infrastructure. And uh, yes, um, it kind of led me on a very uneven path, as it were, or, uh, you know, certainly not a straight path, but into what I do now, which is jobbering.

Speaker B: Is it always that path? Has it always been mechanically based? Because when we talk about insulation, that's quite a mechanical type product or industry, isn't it?

Speaker C: Yeah. So, I mean, obviously when I was at the meb, very much electrically focused. But when, um. For a number of reasons, this is down to the, um. Down to privatization and things like that. But I was made redundant from there. The contracting operation that I worked for was effectively closed down and a lot of people were sort of absorbed into the actual kind of distribution, electrical distribution business. I wanted to proceed into sales, which is kind of where I was already, um. Um. Where I'd already started working with MEB and um. Yeah, so it led me into ah, fixing and supports for pipe work actually. So, yeah, so since then, absolutely more mechanically driven. But very much I've come into this from a more commercial angle, which I think is quite useful as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's good that, you know, commercial site. There's no point if we don't bring in the commercial element, because everyone. It's got to be cost, there's got to be savings, you know, and uh, return on investment. And it's important to have that aspect to it. Uh, incidentally, I was researching this morning, and insulation is probably one of the oldest energy management technology that existed and still exists today. And it hasn't changed much, has it?

Speaker C: Well, yeah. I mean.

Speaker B: Or has it?

Speaker C: Well, I mean. I mean, we could. I mean, how far back do you want to go?

Speaker B: The concept of it hasn't changed.

Speaker C: The Romans used, um, uh, cork insulation for their pipe work back in the old kind of Roman spa days, you know, so there's been a, uh. Yeah, it's not a new concept.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker C: And uh, again, just to maybe do a little bit of, um, um, a sales pitch for the, uh, for the Black country area. When you go around the Black country museum, you see some very early adoptions of insulation of pipework that was more chiefly for mechanic, for personal protection to prevent people from, uh, burning on what was very, very hot piping systems. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, yeah, I mean, it's developed from there into being more about, uh. Obviously the personal protection, uh, issue is still a very important one. But really we talk more and more now about energy efficiencies. We think things, you know, your condensation issues. And uh, I was actually on site yesterday at a refrigeration application where it's all. Yeah, the key thing, of course you're insulating to prevent energy losses, but you're also preventing that buildup of ice on glycol lines or, uh, you know, things like that. So, yeah, there are a number of reasons and really important factors. But yeah, obviously the big one, we always come back to energy now because that applies across the board.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And how long has Tikka been operating?

Speaker C: So actually next year will be our 70th anniversary.

Speaker B: Right. So the Romans didn't found the tika.

Speaker C: We've been around a while, but, um, I think not as long as the Romans.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So, uh, but obviously just the job of a trade association has changed so much as well.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And um, you know, so. So what tika are now compared to where they were 70 years ago and what started that. Some real key basic principles we've always held, but obviously there's a lot of modernization that has happened as well. Uh, and even since I've been there, it's a real, you know, you can feel the change, some real sense of energy about it.

Speaker B: You know, when you have, uh, trade associations, and I'm talking globally around the trade associations as such. But they're used. They do. They sort of interface between government and business, don't they? And industry. Yeah, they play a very big part of providing that glue. And you mentioned you was at the Lords recently.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, a couple of years ago actually. That was. Yeah. Ah, yeah, the last time. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, it's very interesting to see, um, you know, have that opportunity to, to bring people together. It's a big part of what we do. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And, and do you find, um. Obviously I don't like to get too political with my podcast as such, but do you find that, uh, government adopts or listens to the trade association? Is there, Is there a connection there or is it a. Yeah. Detachment.

Speaker C: I, I think there's. I could, I could put myself. I could stand in different places with that. And I think in, in general, um, there are, uh. When you look at the construction sector, there does seem to be quite a lot of, um, um, back and forth, good communication between say government and the Construction Leadership Council. Um, but only on certain things. I think. You know, there's. There's. I think when it comes to specific trade associations with specific points, that's really a challenge. And our government listening on things like energy saving, uh, um, I think it's a real problem to solve. I think government have got so many problems to solve and it's very difficult for them to listen to everybody.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: So you can bring some of those facets together, like with uh, the building safety aspect and competence through the supply chain. It's actually really important we work together with other trade associations and that we're represented as a, as a whole, as it were. But then, um, yeah, actually breaking that down into something so specific like thermal insulation and the energy saving and uh, financial savings that could be made, we kind of, to a certain extent, we have to um, take that route ourselves and it could be a bit lonely, I think, in that respect.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: So, uh, yeah.

Speaker B: And then, um. So you're using different vehicles to lobby government and to share knowledge back. And one of them is. You've written a paper, haven't you, recently?

Speaker C: That's right, yeah. So we, we're under development with that. Um, we are very close to releasing that. So whether or not the podcast is released before or after that. But maybe, you know, it could be wonderful timing. And um, the idea with that is it's really laying out a position with um, a lot of data, uh, and uh, information to back up why thermal insulation is such an important Part of our national decarbonisation effort. Um, and I think particularly with things like the industrial sector, it's really important. Um, one of the things about it is it's such a, um, all encompassing document that what, what we will be doing is breaking this down again. How do we make it easy for the government to take aspects um, of this and actually run with it? Well maybe what we do is the white paper covers so many different things but actually we can do, we can do some asks, you know, and maybe break those down. So what we want to do first of all is a call to action. Um, um, along this is happening Europe wide by the way, a call to action to actually implement a uh, minimum uh, energy rating for thermal insulation and uh, adopt a minimum uh, rating of C for industrial applications. Now um, that's already having success in other European countries. And when we look at the uh, challenges our industrial sector have, I think we're not helping that sector enough. And I think something like this, if it's done with the, the carrot rather than the, the stick, could be a really powerful thing.

Speaker B: Do we enter into that conversation where I uh, I then said earlier, didn't I, it needs to be more of the carrot?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think it does.

Speaker B: It helps us see in the dark. But we won't go down that same rabbit hole again.

Speaker C: No, we won't do that now. Yeah, that's fair enough. But yeah, I think it's so important. Um, you know there are so many ways that we can save energy but this is really what um, using the government's own terms about having no regret solutions or low regret solutions, this really, really does tick the box. And I think if we can help our industry, which sometimes I think feels very beleaguered, you know, um, and actually it's really valuable to what we do. Um, why can't we help the industry, um, our industrial sector to adopt some of these measures? Um, so we start by highlighting it, hence the white paper, hence the call to action, which I'm really hoping that uh. Yeah, um, people who are listening to this podcast and uh, uh, energy sector, uh, uh, professionals can really buy into this and work with TIKA to promote this so more uh, to come on that very soon.

Speaker B: Yeah and interestingly we have vehicles as an energy consultant and within the legislation and if we focus on things like esos when we. So forget esos, just put up esos to one side. When I do an energy assessment on any organization, I would say 25% of that assessment will be attributed to issues around the Plant room around insulation where we're going to put lagging on, um, additional lagging, whether they've taken lagging off or there's a decay in the lagging or there's pumps or valves where the laggers are put up to the valve but they've never done the, you know, the mat. You know it's always a cost element of it. So as I say 25% of my energy assessment could be attributed to insulation. So taking that bringing in eSource, think of all the energy opportunities that could be impacted by all these organizations.

Speaker C: Well this is one of the things I uh, did want to cover because um, I attended an ESOS presentation carried out by M. An Energy, um, um, an energy management company recently and um, it was sort of broken down into all the different things that can be done to help an industrial consumer. And thermal insulation wasn't mentioned. I'm thinking why is it, why isn't that, you know it was just in like any other stuff on the, on the sort of the pie chart and I'm thinking the. Any other stuff was like about 40%. I wonder how much of that was actually thermal insulation.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: On its own. But then people talk about, you know it's. Things have a smaller impact but everybody gets a bit more excited about it. It's a bit shinier and yeah, um, yeah it's, yeah.

Speaker B: I find installation um, cost to the payback, the return on investment on installation alone is a lot higher.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So why not? I would have. It's a given for me, uh, always valve wraps, you know and I know the payback on it is significant and the charge uh, of it is less. There's a little bit of um, sort of technology, not technology but sort of time, you know, measuring the valve or whatever. But that has become easier now because if we notice what the manufacturer of the valve is and the sizes etc. There's pre made stuff so it, that should be easier. So yeah, I think what's happening for me this is looking from the outside.

Speaker C: Right, okay.

Speaker B: You guys are doing your bit. We're doing our bit but unfortunately we're a bit all lost.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And this is why I wanted to, you know, this is why I was very keen for you to join our group and very keen to obviously keep our conversations going, try and bring it more closer together. I think that's really important.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Because these opportunities is that As I said, 25% I can guarantee every time. And you talk to my colleague, I'm always mentioning on my Podcast, uh, Jeremy Carter who's ah, out there with our thermal cameras. We're picking up all these opportunities, you know.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I think it might have even been one of Jeremy's um, posts that first sort of bought me uh, brought me over to you. Yeah. And you know I could see it was refreshing for me to see a uh, real passion for these coming from the other side as it were.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Ah, you know obviously we represent uh, professionals that are um, uh yeah, fitting uh, measuring, cutting, fitting insulation, the cladding that goes with it. And obviously a lot of them actually manufacture their own valve jackets and things like that. But um, you know we could talk about the response to the demand as it were. But what's driving the demand. Ah, because we know it's, we know it's a ready made solution and there's some really clever ways of actually representing that as well like Tipcheck, uh, which uh, the eif, the European Industrial Insulation foundation that, that the software that they um, they market, it's really impressive. So there's you know, whether you want to, you know how far you want to go, how far a client needs to maybe prove the payback periods and things like that. It's all there and ready. But it's that lack of supply into the market really. And it's so frustrating because we know it really is a virtuous circle of what we could do. There's no.

Speaker B: So do you collaborate with other trade associations? For instance? Um, we had Esther, didn't we? Do you ever deal with them or Energy Institute or sibse?

Speaker C: Uh, so sibse a little bit, yeah, yeah. Um, the main ones we do collaborate with are uh, uh, the real sort of trade specific associations. So not your um, you know, your chartered institutions and such like. So, um, yeah, ah, Ibiza, the Building Engineering Services Association. We really kind of hand in glove with a lot of what happens there. This does kind of um, work back to the competence, um, hierarchy through the supply chain which is driven by the Building Safety Act. Uh, and so there's a lot of work we're doing there to ensure that a mechanical electrical contractor, um, uh, when they're under pressure to um, evidence their own competence that they can then show through TIKA membership, they can show that they are appointing a competent thermal insulator who's going to understand how to insulate properly. It's a big problem at the moment. A lot of what you see as energy assessors is um, yeah, don't get me wrong, there's degradation, there's Valve jackets that are taken off and strewn aside and many, many different things like that. But ultimately a lot of it wasn't done right in the first place. Ah, to get it done right in the first place is where, uh, we can really work with bisa. Ah, and it sort of jigsaw pieces into other trade associations. Uh, we've done work with the Electrical Contractors association, uh, with the asfp, who represent the specialist fire protection contractors. There's a lot of people we are working with like that. Uh, we're also members of Build uk, which kind of brings it all together and speaks for the whole, the whole market.

Speaker B: So, because with the older stuff we then got issues with asbestos, haven't we?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Which, you know, us as consultants have got to be careful what we're looking at and, and there should be asbestos registers done, etc.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, but that was the old form of insulation, wasn't it?

Speaker C: Yes, yeah, it was an old form of insulation and it's very much tied into the legacy of the insulation industry. And again, that probably helps explain why we have our own um, uh, division dedicated to that. ACAD is the asbestos, uh, Control and Abatement division of tika. And um, that, that has got a really a, um, large and growing membership base as well. It's, it's still an issue. It really is. So. Yeah.

Speaker B: What is the m. You've got like a theme of the, the paper, haven't you? Yeah. Something about the roof.

Speaker C: The, the proof is on the roof.

Speaker B: Yeah. Where's that come from?

Speaker C: Don't tell me that wasn't already lodged in your head. It's so easy to remember.

Speaker B: It is, but I just wanted you to explain it.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's um. Yeah, so that was actually um, ah, a little bit of a. Well, it's a collaboration with a gentleman called Lawrence Leask, who is coming out from similar background to self, but more from the air conditioning background really noticing everything that we notice around. Well, why isn't, you know, I'm going up on a roof to check the, the air conditioning system. Why is all this, why is all this thermal insulation failing? Why isn't it one people installing, uh, the correct products that are suitable for external applications? And it came to me after, uh, actually it was a collaboration with Sibse, uh, an article I did with Sibse that he read that brought us together and he was like, well you're Tika, uh, what are you doing about this? I said, well that's a very interesting point because that element there, the air conditioning refrigeration element. Commercial insulation is not done by the thermal insulation contractor. It's done by the air conditioning contractor. It's flexible foams. It should be. It doesn't require that sort of same, uh, kind of workmanship that you might need a, uh, thermal insulation contractor to do, say with like mineral fiber or phenolic or anything else, uh, for that matter. So tends to be done by the refrigeration, um, market. But doesn't mean to say we shouldn't care about it. And actually what we do with, um. The proof is on the roof is we're highlighting that. And he's built a nice. Actually I should mention this as well. Yeah. He's built a nice bridge between us and the ior, The Institute of Refrigeration. There's a body that I didn't mention earlier.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So we did some really interesting webinars with them last year.

Speaker B: I think it's really important we collaborate. There are these crossovers, isn't there?

Speaker C: Absolutely. And, um, you know, as tika. We can't do this alone. When you think about it, you know, hey, we're a fairly small trade association. We dare I say we, um. Yeah, we shape quite loudly for a fairly small trade association. But also, you know, thermal insulation as a product, it interfaces with so many things. It's, you know, it's installed on pipework. So you've got to speak to that trade. Ductwork, again, that's a different set of, um. Or there are other trade associations specifically dedicated to ductwork. And so it goes on into fire

Speaker B: protection and all the rest controls, BMS with the valves, etc.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So potentially it can kind of. Yeah, it can spin off into different things. So we're kind of say. I say, fairly humble about the fact that we can't do it on our own and we need other trade associations. But actually the feedback has been really, really good. People have been welcoming this. There's so many. So many aspects of this. The one with the, uh. Um. Uh, Electrical Contractors association was understanding where Trace Heating fits into all of this as well. So, um, it's an important aspect, but it doesn't have its own trade association. It doesn't have its own, um. Um. National occupational standard. And so how do you show competence within that even? What is it, you know, is it an electrical job? Is it, you know, people. A lot of the time, thermal insulators are doing the tray seating, installing the actual, um, tray seating cables and then insulating over it. And then the electrical contractor will do the final connections. Uh, but it kind of slips in the middle of trades. So all these things need to be, need to be looked at. So yeah, we're, yeah, it's like having

Speaker B: a massive puzzle in front of you. We're just starting to start the corners, then the edges and then work, you know.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And you know, and the one, it's that puzzle. But we got our piece, which is the Tika piece and then we're kind of building the puzzle around that certainly

Speaker B: right in the middle of it. Are you, you're amongst it? Yeah, that's the thing.

Speaker C: Absolutely nobody's right. Yeah, I think that's the thing. Yeah. Everybody's got a part to play. But yeah, it's sort of that spider's

Speaker B: web of, you know, tell me what. Now these. I'm pushing, um, the question here, but what's your vision for this paper? What are you hoping to achieve from this?

Speaker C: Um, initially I'm hoping to achieve a government response which states that a minimum energy rating of C for industrial applications can be employed. That maybe the specifics is what I've got to work through. Could that be part of the essos, um, reporting for example? That's what I'd hope. Ah, could be done.

Speaker B: Energy performance certification, etc.

Speaker C: Yes, yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Which is key as well because we've got all these buildings around us. Are they all correctly graded? You know, uh, would better insulation improve that grading?

Speaker C: Exactly. I mean there was so, so, um, um, the. My, my proof is on the roof. Colleague Lawrence Lees was looking into this with, with energy ratings and certification and um, indeed what, what he saw was um, uh, examples of where um, the return could be really quick. Uh, on things like so say um, cylinders where the, where the hatches, the manholes have not been insulated just to insulate them. The payback. He looked at a particular example where the payback was about eight months I think really. Um, and it was mentioned almost as like a not really important thing to do. But when it came to the actual report the top thing was um. Um. Yeah, a kind of a take it or leave it. You've done everything you can. But um, I hadn't, you know. Um, but uh, look, um, look at uh, a solar PV solution for, for this particular area. And, and so you think well why aren't they mentioning that? Why isn't that part of the um,

Speaker B: payback that gives you within 12 months? Yeah, that's a just do it, isn't it?

Speaker C: Non invasive.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So literally you, you can continue your, your production without, you know, you can't when you think of the other options, you have to, you know, there's a lot of design element going into that. Um, there's potentially shutdowns and these things can be quite invasive and difficult. Thermal insulation, again, no regrets.

Speaker B: Yeah. No power down.

Speaker C: Yeah. And.

Speaker B: And so plant can still probably operate as you may have to turn it down or turn it off. Well, you could do it in the summer, couldn't you? Yeah, when the heat isn't on there systems maybe, things like that.

Speaker C: There's. Yeah. I mean with process pipe work it could be more challenging. But again, you know there's, there's got to be shutdown times and you know. But yeah, I mean a lot of

Speaker B: this you can be.

Speaker C: Yeah, you can do whenever you need to because it is non invasive. So it, it's quite frustrating that is not considered. And there's a lot around language with this as well where you know, there's um. And because it's not seen that certain, certain words and phrases tend to get repeated a lot and then, you know, we can get very excited. I'm not saying we shouldn't do, but we can get very excited about um, the deployment of heat pumps and things like that. Um, and that seems to tick boxes without actually let's look a little bit more into detail. Let's look what we can do that's easier than that, you know, uh, especially for the industrial sector. So I think this is it. It's almost sort of the deployment of, you know. Yeah, it's easy. It can be easy box ticking things to say. But let's talk about what really matters and what can be done quickest and actually get that argument back to saving energy. The energy that we don't use is the best energy saving. Ah, we'll make.

Speaker B: Yeah, this is a great phrase and that goes across the whole of the industry, doesn't it? Not just that, but you know, when you. When I look at. I'm gonna go back to my m figure of 25%. That 25% I know, as you say, can possibly pay back within 12 months. And I've seen three months payback in some things when we put valve wraps on.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Three months payback. How amazing is that?

Speaker A: It is.

Speaker C: I mean if you've got uh, a. Again, this is why it's really. This is why the big ask for the white paper initially is focusing on the industrial market because that is where we see pipe work that is um, far enough above the ambient temperature of the room that it's affecting the ambient temperature of the room for One thing actually, but you know, um, um, but it's so far above that. Energy saving of doing it right is huge. So that sort of Delta T is significant enough that you can make some real, real savings. But we did even um, we did a case study at um, uh, an exhibition centre that we were exhibiting at as well. It was a really nice kind of coming together of uh, ah, different things. But um, we did that. That was water at 75 degrees. And again the payback was little over a year. So that was done in time for the exhibition with all the valve jackets in place. It was brilliant.

Speaker B: I like the way you talk about the narrative and um, for me that's education, you know, um, and I've been having this saying, I don't know where I've got it from, I must have read something. But it's making the invisible visible for people. And that's what these papers do, isn't it? Is actually making people think, oh, 12 month payback. Oh that's interesting. Or within, you know, they're the sort of things we need to be educated, forget about what they've got to do.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: To get that 12 month payback. You know, money's tough at the moment. Energy's at uh, ridiculously high. You know, we're not going to bring the crisis in again regarding it, but it will help with that crisis. It's going to reduce your gas consumption, improve electricity consumption as well with heating areas up more efficiently.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I mean this is, this is really one of the key drivers of this and this is why we start. As I say, the white paper itself covers a lot of different aspects but the initial ask, the initial call to action is about that industrial decarbonisation. When we look at that and the reasons why. Um, so the EA F they did some research on this and the equivalent sort of carbon reduction saving, if we were to insulate the industrial and energy sector correctly equates to um, heating 800,000 houses. You start thinking then that's kind of like a power station's worth of energy savings. Um, so when we start thinking about that, that's a really important thing, um, we start again. That no regrets option. What is the downside? Let's talk about the upsides and that kind of circle. Well, if we start with the fact that we are making, if we do this we can make our industrial sector, um, more competitive. And that's not just competitive, uh, amongst their, their own, um, uh, um, you know, within their own nation against their competitors within the uk. That's more Competitive on a global stage. You know, we need industry in the uk, energy security is part of national security and that national infrastructure of having some industry onshore here is an important thing. So make that more competitive. Reduce carbon. That reduced carbon is potentially enough if we can do it. That's again, we're talking uh, a power station's worth of uh, infrastructure, um, that we can improve. So why wouldn't we do it? So the UK PLC can potentially save enough energy, we know with all the drivers towards um, for example, data center employment. We are absolutely, we are struggling to uh, deliver on the infrastructure we need, um, for our country as it is. So why not, why not make these reductions where we can? Um, what is the downside? Well, again, the upside that we don't talk about enough, which I should be proud to, is it's actually more work for people that are trying to do the right thing. Energy assessors for one. You know, this is an important message for energy assessors to bring to the market. Also our own members of the thermal insulation contractors, you know, they should be busy between now and 2050 or whenever we can get this done by you. You know, all this um, latent um, energy loss that we have that can be solved by insulating. We should have people employed in the trade just doing that and bringing that up to standard. So it's a circle of all. Everything's good.

Speaker B: I'm going to add one more thing to that. It's going to also help with training and education for new people coming into the industry. So possibly school leavers that can come into this industry straight from school and make a difference.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. It's actually really interesting thing you've picked on there, um, which is what we do as a trade association to try and encourage that. So I actually did um, uh, I did a careers fair at my um, local college, Dudley College, uh, uh, earlier this week and uh, obviously we're looking at apprentices for the future. Um, we need more. We're training at the moment at tika house, uh, 200 apprentices a year.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: Um, yeah, that is almost to bearing in mind that the aging workforce is well known within the whole construction sector and we kind of share a little bit of that as well. Um, we can work out that that is roughly, it's almost getting to replacement levels. 200, we need to push a little bit more. If we can get up to 250 apprentices a year, um, going through centre, we can probably get to slightly uh, surpassing the replacement levels then. So that's really important. So actually going out and doing um, these kind of careers fairs is quite an important thing. Um, but there's kind of these little knock on effects as well because what we do, um, we set up a pipe rig, um, it's actually like an electrical heating element in the shape of a pipe that we set up in a rig and we have our thermal camera and we turn this rig on for a while so it's exuding some heat. Yeah, yeah. And then people coming over and say, what's that? Okay, well let me start with this. Hand them the thermal imaging camera. They have great fun working out where the hotspots on their friends and colleagues are. And you know, and well guess what? Hopefully all your thinking's in your head anyway and you know, that's going over time at the moment. So there's more heat coming from there. That's why it's important to wear a hat in the winter. Right. Okay, let's look at this frame here. Where is the heat coming from? It's from the uninsulated part of the element and it's just so simple. But I guess it's an example of where kind of the physics of what we're doing is really, you know, is really important to convey as well. So um, yeah, and our apprentices do work with the thermal imaging cameras as well. Just give them a step into the, into your world a little bit. Really help them understand what, what is driving all of this.

Speaker B: We've, we've talked about this paper and the positivity around it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Where are uh, the roadblocks? Where's the, the areas where you're gonna, what you think your challenges are?

Speaker C: Yeah, I, I think, I'll be honest, I think it's getting government to understand and to, to listen. Um, because I don't think there are other priorities. Yeah, yeah, I mean you could see that it can work by the way. Paul. So for example, on the heat network market you can see there's been some real joined up thinking with um, uh, with the standards that are being deployed because they've experienced the issues, um, the issues around um, heat networks and the occupant kind of uh, experience with uh, energy bills and overheating corridors and things like that has made it a real national priority to get that right. So actually the insulation specifications are really strong and um, the Hentasahe Network Technical Assurance scheme is, you know that, that is currently under um, the technical standard for that is currently under consultation. But effectively there are some things that have been put in place to m, make that specification really strong for thermal insulation. So we can do it when, when, um, when it's part of something that's already happening and things like that. The difficult thing is, and you know, is getting it into a manageable chunk that it can be inserted into something that, you know, something maybe on the government industrial strategy. Uh, and. But it's getting through to the right people. You know, I mean, I've written to the Carbon Trust and people like that. How do I get them to, how do I get them to notice this and care.

Speaker B: Yeah. And put it up their priority list.

Speaker C: Exactly. And I'm sure they've got a lot of different concerns, but yeah, it's, it's kind of.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: How do we do that and that. That is the biggest challenge for me. Yeah, I think that's why we need, uh, you know, we need. Yes.

Speaker B: To educate. We need people like myself. We need people who. Within our network that can drive this forward.

Speaker C: Yeah, some. Somebody other than me telling people that, yeah, 25% of, of what is, can be changed is around the thermal insulation aspect. And that's huge.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So. Yeah.

Speaker B: And how long have we been saying.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, Julius Caesar by the sounds of it. Since Julius Caesar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: So, Chris, look, well, let's just focus on, um, you know, is there anything. There's a lot here to take away. Is there any takeaways that you could give specifically now for people that could be listening to this today?

Speaker C: So, yeah, I'm going to use the same phrase. Get up on the roof or get into your plant room and have a look and see what's going on. There is nothing better than actually getting that visual experience and that feel, you know. You know, when you walk into a plant room when there's problems with the ambient temperatures and you can pretty much work out, you know, there's ways of very much experiencing what the problems are. So, um, it's not a theoretical exercise. It's a real world thing. So we should be encouraging people to look at their, um, existing stocks and actually say, what are we going to do? Forget the paperwork element of it for a second. What are we actually going to do? Uh, as a company? Um, you know, we could talk about what is initially cost free, at least have a look and then decide what you're going to do. Um, you know, then, then there might be, um, there might be a more rigorous, um, sort of piece of research you need to do around reporting.

Speaker B: Some of it is free. Because a lot of the times at that 25%, I'm not going to give a percentage but I've seen the lagging on the floor.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: When I could have just picked it up and put it back again.

Speaker C: That's a really good point. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: So there was a zip. So in all of this is a zero cost, there's a medium cost, there's always a capex cost but the zero cost, medium cost and the capex cost can all be paid back, have a return on investment within a 12 month period which is significant. As I said before it's a just go and do it isn't it?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. If we could get the um, maintenance engineers who are actually um, you know um, focused on these energy savings to talk to the people involved with the capex and everything else and, and come to come to sensible decisions about that. I mean the evidence is all there but it's a real joined up thinking approach that we need to have M. But it starts definitely with seeing that proof really.

Speaker B: What's the timeline now? The paper we can close because I know we've been speaking about this.

Speaker C: Yeah. So what we're waiting on at the moment is um, we decided to delay it uh, for a while because we've been talking to our European counterparts and this idea of this because there's a Europe wide standard, uh BSEN 17956 rolls off the tongue if you're that way inclined. Um and that is an energy rate in standard for thermal insulation. It actually makes it really easy for a client to be able to specify something nice and easy. I just want to energy rating of C across my stock, go and sort it out and show me what energy savings are. Okay. Brilliant. From that you can work out um, your return on investment, um, the payback times and everything. So it's really quite, it involves a bit of work for the thermal insulator but it's really quite an elegant work way eloquently stated almost uh, a way of doing it. So um, that's, that's what we're really, really focusing on and I think it's right to do that in tandem with the rest of Europe.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So uh, because yeah other countries are already doing things in Europe but actually yeah there's going to be a Europe wide bush so I think that will happen in the next, I'm going to say by April May that will be in place and we'll release the white paper at the same time.

Speaker B: Brilliant.

Speaker C: And then I will be.

Speaker B: This podcast will be going out before then but this might be the teaser.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: I'm sure we'll be doing some more stuff. Um, leading up to that. Okay. Because I'd like to say thank you very much for you finding the time to come down to London to see me and to spend time and talking to our audience. And lastly, I'd like to say you and your family stay safe in these times.

Speaker C: Thank you very much, Paul. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker A: Thank you to my guest for joining m me today on Energy Speaks Back. I'm very proud and humbled to have the opportunity to interview energy experts from around the world. And I hope you found today's episode of Value. Please don't forget to listen to the previous episode. They are full of insights to help you make real impact on energy efficiency. And remember, those tiny changes that we make today can bring us profound savings in the future. Together we can drive change and make a difference. That leaves me with one more thing to say. You and your family be safe in these times.