Psychological Safety and Autonomy in a Lean Culture with Gary Peterson

Speaker A: Celebrating our 20th year of lean Podcasting. Hey, it's Mark Graben. If you've ever felt like you had to be perfect at work or you're worried about making mistakes, check out my audiobook, the Mistakes that Make Us. I share stories about how owning and learning from mistakes actually leads to better results, stronger teams, and real innovation. It's available on Audible, Amazon, Apple Books, or just head over to mistakesbook.com. i hope you'll give it a listen.

Speaker B: Hi, Mark, it's Karen Martin. Thank you so much for the 20 years of sharing your wisdom and experience with people across the globe on your Lean Blog podcast. And thank you also for having me on five times because I always enjoy our conversations and, you know, doing whatever we can to help people become more successful at making improvement and helping organizations perform at top levels. Congratulations on 20 years and may you have many more to come.

Speaker C: Welcome to the Lean Blog Podcast. Visit our website at www.leanblog.org. now, here's your host, Mark Graben.

Speaker A: Hi. Welcome to Lean Blog Interviews. I'm, um, your host, Mark Graben. Our guest today is Gary Peterson. Gary is, uh, fairly recently retired from O.C. tanner, where he served as executive vice President of supply chain and helped lead the continuous improvement work that earned O.C. tanner the Shingo Prize. Back in 1999, Gary was inducted into the AME hall of Fame. And today Gary is an executive coach, teacher and consultant. He's been named Executive in Residence at the Ohio State University Fisher College of Business, working with their Master of Business of Operational Excellence program, or moe, as we've talked about here on the show. So Gary, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?

Speaker C: Thank you, Mark. I'm delighted to be here.

Speaker A: Well, it's great to have you here. You know, we cross paths, um, again fairly recently at Shingo Connect event. And you know, I appreciate you, uh, accepting, uh, the invite to come here so much we, we could talk about. But um, I always like to start off and I'm curious if your Lean origin story is going back to the days at O.C. tanner. I'd love to hear the context of kind of how and why and where and when. Yeah, yeah, was to this.

Speaker C: Well, so, yeah, it, um, almost, uh, 40 years ago, uh, when I was at the O.C. tanner company, uh, uh, they were changing the way they were going to market, which changed the way that, uh, demand hit the factory. And whereas up until that date the production was in big batches, uh, uh, they do recognition awards and uh, at the time the, the, the, the major way of recognizing people was at annual events, at annual banquets, Christmas time, May for hospital week, things like that. And uh, with the change in market, it uh, was more like when somebody accomplishes something, let's recognize them in a timely manner. So order size shrunk from hundreds or Thousands to like 1.5. And everything was set up for big runs. And so not unexpectedly, costs were unexpectedly going up. Quality was, was taking a big hit. And uh, the company wanted to do something about it and uh, they posted a job for a facilitator of change. I was in marketing at the time and, and I thought facilitate change. That sounds like fun. Can I make a career in. Uh-huh. And uh, I applied for it and uh, I, I sold myself on, on, on two things. One was uh, I had seen a video in MBA school that Hewlett Packard made back in the 70s, uh, showing the one piece flow was more efficient than batch. And it blew my mind and uh, stuck with me. And I thought, okay, I know that we can do small runs, that we can do a pull system better than our big push batch system that we had. Uh, uh, I was very confident of that. And I think maybe that was the biggest differentiator for me was that no one else knew what to do. Yeah. And um, that's all I knew. I, I, you know, the term lean hadn't even been invented yet. So uh, I didn't know where to go to give more information than that. But the other thing was I um, believed that our people probably had more to give, uh, more to contribute than they'd been asked uh, to do. And we were a very top down controlling autocratic culture. The manager was God of his kingdom or her kingdom. And um, people just did what they were told. And uh, so I, I stepped into this role and immediately started changing the way the work was flowing started, tried to get more of a, a pull system in place, which was very painful, uh, but also started to engage the people, um, more teach them problem solving methodology, uh, teach them how to work together as teams. Also very painful. Um, both of these things together. You know, we did, we stumbled around a lot. We, we fumbled in the dark, we fell down. Um, but very soon, very quickly, the company started saving money. Uh, the results started coming in and people started to engage and uh, the rest as they say, is history. We uh, spent the next uh, three decades plus just improving upon that system right up until they booted me out the door in January. So mandatory retirement age for executives at OC 10 or 65. And uh, I I, I hit my mark and uh, man, what a great, what a great place to work. What a great career I had there. Yeah.

Speaker A: Even though it sounds like it went from this will be fun to use the word painful from painful, very quickly getting into those details of um, I mean was, was, was more the pain around technical challenges or people challenges or both?

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, both. So you know, we started, I, I, I started solving the flow issues by putting Kanban in between departments. Uh, in the end we took apart all the departments and put every person right next to a U shaped cell. And um, but that's not how we started. We started with Kanbans trying to kind of get people to learn more job skills with the work and so forth. That was hard. Um, and taking apart departments was hard. I mean when we did that everybody was now sitting, I mean we had 1800 people when we started and everyone's now sitting by somebody new. They've never actually, they're sitting by someone who they have always mistrusted and, and been told you know, are not good for us. You know those, it's the jerks back there who are screwing things up and the ones up there who think they're so smart. Uh, now I'm sitting next to you, new product, we're talking through that. That was hard.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And also it was hard on the managers because um, uh, you know the managers, well, I'd say to them we're going to engage our people more, we're going to trust them, help them do some of the problem solving. And, and a manager's like I don't, I don't know how to be successful in that world. Um, and so it was painful there as well now.

Speaker A: So um, and, and I think we're on the same page. But when you know, I was talking about people, challenges, you know, I'm not blaming the people, but your old habits uh, are, are hard to break. Uh, it's hard for anybody to go through significant changes to the way we're used to doing. Right.

Speaker C: It absolutely is. And, and actually in addition to that we had a lot of fear, uh, on behalf of the people, the team members who uh, as far as they could tell, anytime uh, they open their mouth and express their opinion, they got their head handed to them. Best for us just to stay quiet. And here's this new guy saying, saying look, I'd like you to talk, I'd like you to solve problems. They're like, you know, that's not safe to do around here.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so getting the managers to back off and to uh, to be more, become more of a mentor and a coach and a teacher and getting team members to, to get confidence in themselves and each other. That's. It's a lot of work.

Speaker A: Yeah. And another phrase that wasn't really being used at the time that comes to mind is psychological safety. It sounds like there was not a lot of that when it comes down to, uh, you know, people learning the habit of, you, uh, know, protecting themselves by staying quiet.

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, you can talk about autonomy, um, and you can say we want to have more autonomy in our people, but without psychological safety, uh, the autonomy is meaningless. And likewise, uh, without autonomy, why, you know, psychological safety doesn't give you a whole lot, but together, uh, they're very powerful. Yeah. And uh, and so you're asking, you're asking management not just to hand over autonomy, you're asking to make it safe. And then team members have to make it safe for each other. I mean, we had a, what we, we had was a bullying kind of mentality. It, uh, wasn't just the managers who, ah, who were kind of mean people, uh, were mean to each other. There was a pecking order and, and you know, some people, uh, it was like a schoolyard. And uh, you've got a. None of that works in a culture of continuous improvement.

Speaker A: Sure. It doesn't lead to a culture of continuous improvement. Um, so tell me more about autonomy then. So, I mean, you kind of suggested that psychological safety alone is not enough. Autonomy, it sounds like, is the ability to make improvements happen. That.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Problem solving.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, so, um, like I, uh, I asked a couple of the managers right up front to, to hand me some of their best people and let me do kind of a quality circle, kind of a improvement kind of thing. And I had a group from our merchandise team.

Speaker B: Incredible.

Speaker C: Uh, uh, they were all women by chance, and they were really smart and they were coming up with some great ideas, uh, for how they could improve the merchandise function. And we worked once, once a week together for like a month, six weeks. And uh, we, we got to a point where we had something powerful to share with the manager. And I told him, hey, let's bring the manager up here and we'll do the presentation, have you guys present your ideas. And they were horrified. Um, no, no, no, we're not going to present our ideas. It's okay. He, he chose you to come be part of this. He wants to hear your idea. I, they would not be the ones who share their ideas. We, we assumed, Gary, that you were going to sit down one on one with him and share the ideas without our names associated with it. Yeah, that's safer. Yeah, that speaks to that psychological safety. Um, and even though the manager really was granting them autonomy by saying, go be part of this crew, um, neither. Neither was working, uh, in the environment at the time. Uh, so getting managers to let go of control is what actually allows team members to take autonomy. And I think you start small, you give them small wins, and they start to realize, okay, one, I, I tried something new, and whether it failed or worked, uh, the world didn't end. Uh, I got to experiment, I got to learn. And, um, and that's when they start to feel like it's safe now. And I can, I can take more autonomy. I can try more things.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, certainly something like the improvement Katana, uh, that Mike Rother teaches, a great technique for, uh, helping team members, uh, experiment with autonomy. And, and the methodology that he teaches makes it psychologically safe for the team members to do so. Um, it's a couple of thoughts.

Speaker A: Yeah. So that culture challenge, like, when I started my career right out of college 31 years ago, General Motors, uh, that plant was very much, uh, autocratic. Command of control, blaming, shaming.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Awful environment. The phrase toxic workplace wasn't being used, but the definition. And, you know, I saw some culture change starting to happen when we got a new plant manager who was leading the 800 of us. It seems like a lot of companies you hear about, you know, this kind of culture change, starting with a new CEO. Um, Larry Culp at GE Aerospace comes to mind as somebody who's talked about this at ame. Um, it sounds like you. You have this mandate from being in, like this, in the middle facilitator role. Or was it, Was it a mandate or did you take it on? Leading it from the middle. Yeah. Ah, is on. It's unusual for that to turn into a success story.

Speaker C: You're right. You're right. It's a. It's a great question mark. I, I had a mandate to change the business, but, um, our CEO called me in repeatedly to challenge me on, what are you doing? You were making.

Speaker A: You were making waves. I'm sure people were coming in and saying, what's this guy Gary doing?

Speaker C: Yeah, Like, I mean, when he gave me the job, he handed me, uh, Schoenberger's book, World Class Manufacturing, and it had a picture of a U shaped cell in the book. But he had never actually cracked the book. And, and the idea of taking apart departments, to him was like, that's not what I hired you to do.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: And I'm hearing a word that kind of bothers me. Empowerment. Can you explain that to me? Yeah, uh, yeah, I, I did not, uh, I definitely acted on the floor, uh, like I had a mandate. And uh, but my boss and the CEO, who, boy they were, they were questioning and pushing back and often undermining, uh, me, um, I just had to be resilient and uh, pick myself up and go to a different corner of the factory where maybe they couldn't see what I was doing and continue, uh, my work.

Speaker A: Yeah. Because the framing, um, of the mandate, it's interesting to me for one re. For one other, one of the reasons is that there was a real business problem where it talks. It sounds like, you know, you're describing changes in customer behavior, not planning and ordering really far in advance. The need to be, um, responsive. Reminds me, I don't know if you're familiar, um, uh, with the, uh, vibe co story Carl Waddenson in Rhode island. He's been a guest on the podcast and their, his mission for Lean was very much around trying to figure out we've got to ship everything same day or next day.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Competitive business pressures as opposed to, I read a book or somebody said, you should do the Lean thing. I love that it was driven by a real business need. That how much of that, how much of that was a factor in the success?

Speaker C: I think, I think the fact that the things we were doing were actually improving the business was what. Instead of me getting called in and told, well, I was stopped several times. But instead of being told, you're done, uh, because we were getting results, I think the conversation was like, what are you doing? Um, like putting in Kanban, for example. We took our lead time from issue of materials to shipping product from 28 days down to 20 minutes.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: Um, by the time we get into the U shaped cells and uh, but in the first year, we went from 28 days to 14 days. Uh-huh. And with that shrink came a ton of freed up capital. Millions of dollars saved. Quality, uh, improved. Every time you, you, you shrink time. Every time you bring processes closer together, efficiency goes up, quality goes up, time goes down, um, ability to think systemically goes up. And so as, as time was shrinking and time is a great metric for improvement, I think, uh, I, um, was buying myself time. You know, I was like, uh, I think as we were freeing up, um, a lot of inventory, uh, saving literally millions of dollars in those first couple of years, I think our CFO was Saying CEO cut, um, this guy some slack, right? I, I think so. Because I can't understand why they put up with me. It's a little bit of a primadonna. Uh, I was young, I was in, um, but things were happening, you know, results were being attained. So.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, it sounds like, yeah, from a competitiveness standpoint, um, being able to be more responsive would help win more orders and get into a growth, growth mode, which seems like the best circumstances. Instead of being in um, you know, more of a cost cutting, shrinking industry, shrinking business death spiral.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: When you're growing, there's no need to say, oh, you know, no layoff commitment due to lean if you're growing. Right.

Speaker C: That's exactly right. Now the, the uh, since, since that time, uh, the company has been very creative at coming up with new products that have, it allowed us to create new value streamlines, move people, uh, from lines that are more mature and somewhat dying into newer products. Uh, at the time we only had the one product line which is quite mature and it wasn't growing. Um, and at one point when we actually moved to the U shaped cells to the mini factories, we knew right off the bat that we were going to be twice as efficient when we were done. As I mentioned, we started with 1800 people. And uh, I brought in in groups of a hundred, uh, all of the employees, and I said, this is where we're going. Here's the U shaped cell. Everyone's like, yeah, follow me along. When we finish putting all these in place, we're only going to need half of you. And everyone's like, okay, let's see more about that.

Speaker A: I said, well yeah, finish the thought please.

Speaker C: We're going to build, we're going to build one mini factory, hire the best 16 people we can find, put them in there, and then we're going to wait until 16 people leave by attrition. Uh, we didn't have the growth option, but we didn't have to do. What we didn't want to do was do any kind of a layoff or any kind of a massive reduction in force. So we just let attrition kind of take its toll and uh, then we'll hire the next 16 best of you build the second cell, wait till 16 people leave, and it'll take us three or four years and the uh, workhorse will be in half. I said, but let me tell you what I mean when I say the best 16 of you, because half the people in the room were thinking, I meant the most tenured high, uh, Skilled people. And I said, that's not who we're going to hire. We're going to hire the problem solvers, the creative thinker, come to work with energy and enthusiasm, love to work as a team to solve problems. That's who we're going to hire. Yeah. And half the people in the room were like, man, that sounds fun to me. And half the people in the room were like, you'll never be twice as efficient, you don't hire me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I said, look, if you're not like what I'm describing, we've got years. Let us help you get there.

Speaker B: Hm.

Speaker C: And, um, we built the first cell hired just like we said, and they were more than twice as efficient. And it was fun to watch them. Yeah, they were having work was joyous. And they're laughing, there's music, they're dancing, they're enjoying themselves as they solve problems. And immediately the people who didn't match those criteria, who didn't want to be social at work, who don't want to be part of a team, they started leaving in droves. Our attrition went way up. We only had to build, uh, nine cells. And, uh, we were done in like two, two years. And not only was the workforce the right size, um, but we raised the bar on what it means to be an employee in this new environment.

Speaker A: So, yeah, yeah. And I, I'm empathetic for the people that selected out because again, I think there's, um, um, a matter of, ah, habit and being conditioned to just keep your head down and do your job. Don't bother me, I won't make waves. I mean, I've seen that in different organizations. And sometimes the kindest thing is to let them go if they're choosing to leave and go somewhere else where they can fall back into that role. Uh, uh, that might be, you know, maybe not ideal, but what's right for them. And then you think, well, now the people that we have and the people we're going to hire in the future, we're not going to wear them down the same way. Some of those others had been maybe, you know.

Speaker C: And I think, I think I was thinking, uh, there's some people who will never make it in this new environment. But, uh, Christian Hoberg told me that, uh, they did a transition in pharmaceuticals in Denmark. He didn't leave lose a single manager. And I said, well, how'd you do that? And he said, it was a very clear message from above and everywhere possible. Everywhere you looked, everyone was saying the same thing. This is what we're doing get on board.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I. We didn't have that clear message. I think that's unfair. So. So, yeah, I led from the middle. I didn't have support up top, but I seen the, The. The most success for every person will come if there's a clear message from the front top that, hey, this is what we're doing. Get on board.

Speaker A: Um, I want to step back. And you. I appreciate the humility that you're expressing about him saying, well, you know, you were young, you were prima donna. I mean, like, we've all. Yeah, hopefully we're all growing and, and, and maturing, and we're all. Look back at things we did when we were younger professionals. And, you know, we were younger, we were less mature. And, you know, I appreciate your openness about that. And I wanted to ask you if you don't mind telling a story. I know you've written about this, um, the stairwell moment, Mark.

Speaker C: Oh, I'd be happy to. That is the hardest story of my repertoire. Um, yeah. So it was early on, uh, we were experimenting. I was trying to put in this, uh, pull system, uh, between departments. And, uh, the work was getting tight enough that the signal was saying to, um, supplier, department, stop working. We don't need your work here. At the time, we didn't. We didn't have any way to do like a, hey, junka. Smoothing out of the schedule. So work would just bottleneck. And there wasn't a whole lot we could do about it. Uh, obviously a mini factory can do a lot of things with that. The big departments, they struggle with it. And, uh, what I was encouraging people to do was go to the next department and help them, um, which meant learning, uh, the job skills. Uh, but we were in a particular situation where work was bottlenecked about that sixth department. And everyone else was kind of moving, uh, downstream, trying to help. And the net effect was, ah, a lot of people were in departments. They didn't know what they were doing. Well, just about everybody before there didn't know what they were doing. And I was troubled. I was concerned. I didn't know how to solve it. And, um, it bothered me. And one day, a woman from the soldering department who was about the middle of these affected areas, uh, stopped me on the stairwell. Um, that's how I know that's the story you want me to tell.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And, uh, she said to me, uh, hey, uh, this isn't working. And I was like, what do you mean? And she basically told me all the things that were wrong. And she was. She was spot on. And it was terrifying to me because, uh, I thought I could see the problems. But everyone else, I thought maybe they were oblivious to others. And, uh, all of a sudden I realized, boy, if. If what she's saying gets out, it'll be obvious that I'm in over my head and I don't know what I'm doing. And, um, I panicked. And standing there talking to her, I, um, figured I had to get her to shut up. And I started telling her why she was wrong, even though she was right. Uh, I told her what she was missing, but she didn't understand. Basically made myself superior, um, intellectually. Argument. I had the arguments. I could talk circles around her, and I could see that her confidence started to wane. And so I was winning the day. I kept going. I kept talking and doubled, uh, down until she started to cry. And, um, that stopped me short. And I. I was watching her. I was looking at her. She was crying. And I. Now I don't know what to say. Yeah. And she turned and she walked away. And, um. Man, I was, uh.

Speaker A: I felt awful.

Speaker C: I was raised like that. And, um, I. I knew. I knew I had to apologize. And I was thinking through what my apology might look like. And, um. The only thing that made any sense, you know, I tried to. I tried to. To think of a way to apologize without admitting that I don't know what I'm doing. And I couldn't make it work. And the. The only thing that worked was the truth. You know, I'm in over my head, and I'm trying to figure this out, and I'm scared. And, um. Once I figured out that's what I had to do, um, I still had to take several days to work up the, uh. The strength to actually do it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then I. I was ready. But I couldn't catch her alone.

Speaker A: She.

Speaker C: She. She wouldn't make herself of an animal. Doing. Yeah. Good surprise. Yeah. And, um, I realized the only way I was going to apologize. I was gonna have to walk into the soldering department. Uh, 30. There were 30 people working in the soldering department. Shoulder to shoulder. Uh, I was gonna have to apologize to her in the department was my only option.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So I. I walked in. Uh, there's no extra chairs. All, uh, I could do was I went over to her. I knelt down next to her, and the whole room went quiet. And everybody was listening. And I realized, okay, everybody knows. And I'm not just apologizing to her. I'm. I'm really Going to have to explain to everybody why I behaved so badly. Uh-huh. And I basically put it on the table. You know, that I'm, um. I understand the gist of it. I understand we need to flow the work. I understand we need to let the customer pull it. I don't know how to. And I know where we want to get to, but between here and there, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm trying to figure it out. And I, uh. And. And that doesn't. Excuse me. It's. It's.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker C: But it's my reason, and I apologize to her. Uh, yeah. And, um, she didn't. She never looked at me as I was talking. She just sat there forward, and she gave me a barely imperceptible nod at the end. Okay. And that's all I got. Yeah, it's all I deserved. And, uh, I got up, I went back to my desk, and I thought, okay, pitchfork and torches, here they come.

Speaker A: Oh, Gary's blood is in the water,

Speaker C: you know, now it's time to get him. That was the best chance to get me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: A couple hours went by, and, uh, two people from the soldering department, uh, two of the really high performers, uh, were standing in my doorway, and I thought, okay, what's this? And they said, we've been thinking about the problem, and we're wondering, would this work? And they sure did.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: It was the first time. It was the first time in about four years of our transition that somebody had come forward suggesting something. I'd actually already tried what they were suggesting, but I thought, wow, uh, what can I do with this? I said, well, do you. What do you think? Do you think that might work? We think of money. So I said, well, are you willing to try and implement it? And they were like, really? Would you let us implement it? And I go, well, you heard me say, I don't know what I'm doing, or you. And they went and they tried it, and it didn't work. Uh, and so they adjusted it and tried a variation on it, and that didn't work, So I tried something else. And they just kept tweaking it. And as they experimented, people were coming over and joining in them. And I have a feeling that maybe. And I wasn't actually present. I had a feeling maybe they were saying, uh, well, what are you doing? Well, it turns out Gary doesn't know what he's doing. Uh, he told us we could try this or experimenting. Anyway, uh, I think it became the impetus for Our people just jumping in, uh, full strength. And uh, it strikes me as very important that it didn't happen until I made myself vulnerable.

Speaker A: M hm.

Speaker C: And I think, you know, all growth requires vulnerability and, and if we're going to grow people uncomfortable and I think, I think I showed that our management, that you can be vulnerable and survive and, and people will rise up. I, um, think it was an turning event for O.C. tanner. I think it was also a refining event for me in my life.

Speaker A: Well, I, I do appreciate you telling the story, um, and thank you for, you know, the honesty and the candor. And I think, you know, um, there's a lot of thoughts come to mind. One is my, my empathy toward you and others who have been in that situation of a command and control, top down culture, um, where there is the pressure to be a know it all because of fear.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Versus being uh, a learn it all and figure it out culture. Right. I mean, you know, think of the, the vulnerability not just to the team members, but the vulnerability if, if the executives at OC Tanner had heard you admit you didn't know what you were doing, they might have thought we need to go find someone who does. When in reality, I mean, do any of us fully 100% know what we're doing? If that's the, the threshold and the pressure put on us that that's a hard spot to be in as opposed to, let's say if you were in a company where, starting from the CEO, they were modeling, hey, you know, we don't really know things. The best we can do is go figure it out. And if that was being modeled, you know, for you, you might not have had the fear, you might not have lashed out. But then, you know, I think just final thought is I think it's interesting that you had an opportunity to model upward. Like it usually doesn't flow that direction.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's a great, that's a, that's a great statement, Mark. Um, I, you know, I think even then, uh, I felt safe, uh, admitting to the team members. I didn't always, I don't know if I felt safe admitting it up.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's different punishments that could come from either direction. The team, the frontline team could make your life really difficult, but they can't fire you.

Speaker C: Yeah, I, I thought they were going to come at me with everything they had. They.

Speaker A: Or try to get you, try to get you fired.

Speaker C: Yeah, maybe, um, uh, but I think maybe we'd come far enough. I mean, I mean, obviously for all my Weaknesses. I had done something to make them want to help.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And, and um, I mean I like to bank on that a little bit. And so I think, um, um, maybe I laid the foundation that allowed me to be successfully vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: Changing topics a little bit. You, you wrote the foreword. I'm going to hold this book up now. It's now a Shingo, uh, recipient. Someone goes and buys it. It'll probably have the logo on there soon. The book why Care, uh, by Chris Warner and Carolyn Greenlee and Chris Butterworth. Um, you know, we've uh, talked about that book, um, here on, on the podcast. You uh, wrote the foreword. So I, I want you to, you know, kind of share, you know, at this point this is more, you know, late career reflections about leaders and a higher calling about culture and, and safety. Be curious to hear your thoughts on that.

Speaker C: Yeah, you know, um, I mean part of psychological safety, uh, says that I can be myself. Uh, my work wants me to bring my true self to work. My work understands that it is each of us as individuals totally different. Every one of us is different from each other. Some similarities, but huge spectrum across the workforce. And if we're going to be as smart as a team, then we have to acknowledge those differences, we have to respect those differences, we have to honor those differences. And uh, it runs the gamut. Um, every, every type of diversity thinking, uh, every, every type of uh, scale uh, that you could use, uh, represents your workforce. And it is so easy to think of them as just a, a single blob of something, but they're not. It's, it's a dynamic, yeah, very rich tapestry of human experience. And um, I really believe that to get the most out of people, every person has to feel valued and honored for who they are. And they have to feel like. My company wants me to be my best self here. My company will help me be my best self here. My co workers help me be my best self. And, and, and then coming to work is safe. Coming to work is fine and exciting and, and you know, it's very difficult to be your best self every day. Uh, some days, you know, you struggle and, and I want to work at a place where on days when I'm struggling, other people prop me up. They see my need, they see an opportunity to serve me and to bless me and uh, um, that's a great place to work. I used to ride the train into work and I walked through a blue collar neighborhood between the train tracks and Hosi Tanner and going home at night, I'd Pass people coming home from jobs, they get out of their trucks and their driveways and they looked beat. It looked like they just have had the life sapped out of them, um, during the day and they're. They're trudging into their homes almost. Hey, help me, save me, prop me up, feed me and um, let me go back to work again tomorrow and get the crappy out of me. And uh, you know, likewise. I don't want to work a place like that. I want to work in a place where, you know, when we walk in the door, uh, we feel juiced, we feel energized, we feel excited about being myself and being a human being and doing work with these others, luscious human beings, uh, with whom we can be powerful together. Yeah. And um, yeah, I think, uh, that's what attracted me to the book. And uh, yeah, uh, I knew. I knew Chris, uh, before. I now know all three authors. I love them. They're wonderful people. And uh, I was very excited to be able to write the forward.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and what you're describing is really powerful. It goes beyond. I mean it's important to not be physically injured. That's one level of safety. But there's that higher calling of. I, I've heard expressed by people like, um, Paul o' Neill when he was CEO at Alcoa. Um, more. More recently passed away sadly. Uh, Bob Chapman from Barry Wehmiller. I remember him very vividly at an event talking about the goal like Paul o' Neill did, that not only do we have zero injuries, but that people go home healthier than they were when they came in and that that meant mental health. We know toxic workplaces that were toxic gets thrown around loosely, but we think of what toxic means. It means, you know, harmful and like chronic exposure to bad workplaces has a, ah, major impact, um, not just on, on mental health, but physical health. And you know, it's just, you know, I don't know if you heard uh, Bob Chapman talk about, but he said one measure they looked at through HR was the divorce rate of their employees as like a lagging indicator of workplace culture. Clearly that's not the only factor and they knew that. But it's rare and uh, in a nice way unusual when leaders talk about leadership as a calling that way in terms of how it affects their lives, how does that employee then treat their family when they get home? And um, yeah, a lot of people say that's, that's not the role of business, but it can be framed as being the role of Leadership in business.

Speaker C: Yeah, I disagree with. Yeah, I, I think for sure that it is the role of business that, um, I mean, uh, the talk at OC10 or people say talk about, like, it's family. And when I, when they say that and you ask them about it, they say, you know, I spend more time here than I do with my family. Waking hours.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Um, and so you realize that, didn't you realize the impact that work has on the human experience? You know, you couldn't, you couldn't sit in a room with Bob Chapman, uh, talking about ways of being without wanting to be a better human being, without wanting to improve the lives of everyone around you and make things better. And I think the best improvement cultures, every person feels that way, not just the leaders, but every team member is like, I'm here for you. Uh, I'm here. What do you need from me to be successful? I'll do what I can. Uh, that is the culture that we achieved and that we were a going C site, uh, for TSSC, for Toyota and also or McKinsey and Company. And uh, I loved having people come and just walk around the floor because that's what they could feel.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Was that sense of family, that sense of camaraderie, that sense of caring for each other. Um, that's a great place to be.

Speaker A: And I mean, another word that comes to mind from what you were saying earlier. You know, in Toyota, people talk about respect for people or respect for humanity. Um, part of that, like, it's different than being comfortable all the time. Like the Toyota people will use the word challenge.

Speaker C: That's right.

Speaker A: As one of the core ideas. And challenging people to be creative, challenging them to improve performance, because we're all in this together, let's make it interesting and challenging. Um, like that, I think is a great environment to be a part of.

Speaker C: No, I agree. You know, you hire somebody new into the environment. We spend months teaching them the way we talk, the way we solve problems, the way we approach the work and so forth. But nothing, I think, is as impactful as the one. The time they spend with their trainer, where the trainer is helping them experience, you know, like through twi. This is, this is who we are. But the time they spend on their team where, you know, they might say something inappropriate, um, could, uh, be, ah, something racial or, or you know, whatever, and, and it's the team who corrects them and says, you know what, uh, that's not the kind of thing we do here. Or they could say something unkind to someone, uh, or they could roll their eyes or belittle a. It has to come from the team themselves. Yeah, you know what? That's not. We don't do that here, just so you know. You get one, by the way. And that was it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Learn. Learn from that, you know? Yeah. And there's a lesson, you know, talk to people who really study psychological safety. There's that reminder of there's a fine line between being your authentic self and making other people feel bad. It's sort of like the old. What's. What's the old line? Like, you're right to do with your fist ends at the beginning of my nose.

Speaker C: That's right. That's right.

Speaker A: You can psychologically like you. You can be your authentic self. But if that authentic, it doesn't mean, uh. You know, I've heard someone say, like, it doesn't give you license to be a jerk. Like, if it's affecting others negatively.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's a problem. And I think. I think we all, uh. We all learn things at home and at school that maybe are inappropriate in terms of actual, you know, healthy ways of interacting with each other. And, And. And. And I had people early on saying, well, that's just who I am. I'm. I'm. That's the honesty you get from me. But it's. It's, uh, root unkindness. It's like. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't fly here. In. In a way, there's a lot of things we have to unteach. Um, you know, and I think I. So. So to your point about the home and the family, I, uh, believe the right culture at work sends home a better person who no longer berates, who no longer uses shame, who no longer criticizes. Who now is build. Who.

Speaker A: Who.

Speaker C: Who believes in building people and instilling confidence in teaching and letting people try and fail and learn. Uh, and these are just new ways of being that I think should be taught. If not taught at home, they should

Speaker A: be taught at work. Well, I mean, it comes down to having a sense of, uh, valuing yourself and having self esteem.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Which can be strengthened in a workplace or sadly, I've seen it really drained out of people.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yep.

Speaker A: So let's. Let's. Let's turn things to, you know, I think what. What seems like a really positive, um, long story at O.C. tanner. Like, you know, a lot of organizations have a good run, and then things backslide or drift or collapse. Um, What. What did O.C. tanner do?

Speaker B: What.

Speaker A: What was your role? And others to to keep things moving

Speaker C: forward during the transition, I found out how much momentum is, my friend. Building momentum and keeping momentum is everything. And momentum, uh, takes energy. Without energy, entropy takes, uh, over. Things fall apart. And that is the natural state, and that's the law.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So, uh, you can expect that if you're not applying energy that everything is going to be backsliding and everything is going to be falling apart. And it, and it takes work, and it takes time to recognize where the energy has to be applied. And I think, I truly think discipline is the hardest part. Um, any lean work. And, um, you know, so we put systems in place that make it harder to do the wrong thing, that makes it easier to do the right thing. Uh, but then you have to put systems in place that track the systems. Are we doing them? Is everybody doing what they're supposed to do? Is it working the way it's supposed to? Can we improve the system to make it better? Uh, astonishingly, uh, early in Covid, uh, everyone in the office went home and the factory, we were still working. In addition to making awards, we became the de facto manufacturing arm of the Utah health community. We were making parts, you know, to help. We were 3D printing, doing whatever we could. And, um, you know, everyone's wearing the masks and everyone's afraid. I could see in their eye into sphere for weeks, and then better at that. Uh, literally six weeks went by, and I was talking to somebody about their last team meeting, and they said, uh, we're not holding team meetings anymore. It's like, what? Uh, yeah, we quit when we stopped doing team meetings, when Covid started. What about your morning huddles? Yeah, we're not doing that, uh, spacing, you know, we couldn't. We just dropped it. What about your strategy deployment projects? Yeah, we're not working on them. You know, it's just mind blowing. 30, 40 systems. And just like that, they all stopped. And, man, I would have paid big bucks. I would have lost a lot of money because I would have said that just wasn't possible.

Speaker A: It was because of habit and momentum and a positive.

Speaker C: I thought, I thought, yeah, but it just stopped overnight. And, um, and so I, I got everyone together and I said, look, when things are rough, now, now granted, they thought, what, three to six weeks, we'll be back to normal.

Speaker A: Okay. So it was more of a pause than one week.

Speaker C: Maybe a pause. And I told, where things are tough, you don't, you don't let go of your systems. You double down on your systems, and everyone's like, you're right, they turn on again.

Speaker A: Uh, and that's the challenge. Like, well, how do we do it safely?

Speaker C: How do we do it safely? Okay, we're going to do the huddle, but it's not going to be, you know, a big mass of people like it was before. Okay, I got it. Um, they turned all of it, they turned everything back on again. Um, I think, uh, you know, one, one fear about me retiring was, uh, how much of it is dependent on, on the energy I'm putting into it.

Speaker A: Huh.

Speaker C: And so we spent the last five years making sure that uh, I wasn't the only energy source.

Speaker A: Oh, wow, five years.

Speaker C: That's seemed good, planning significant time, building uh, confidence as we, I Before that, my VPs and I owned all the systems and one by one we handed them off to whoever wanted to run them. And uh, they've rotated, uh, several times since then. So now the floor owns the systems. Uh, it's not an, it's not me, it's not the VPs and getting them to own it, uh, that's where we applied a lot of energy and that has become incredibly effective for us.

Speaker A: Yeah, so there's a great lesson there and like what we think about the tendency to drift the entropy. I mean you go to Toyota plants or you talk to Toyota people and, and I think this has been written about in some of uh, the books that even Toyota drifts and they'll say, oh, we've lost some discipline around standardized work. And then, oh, you know, you hear about a, uh, uh, a back to basics movement and you know, I'm not trying to shame them for that. I think there's just, you know, a reality for people listening that this is a tough, uh, force, um, to work against. And I think Toyota bounces back and hopefully they learn not to drift again. So the, the question I was going to ask of you, Gary, is what are some early warning signs that you've seen or that you made sure, you know, if you saw it, you, you caught it really quickly. Early warning signs that the culture is starting to drip before the performance catches up to that.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think if um, you know, if you've espoused a principle like respect for each other, uh, like humble leadership, then you need some sort of litmus test, uh, some sort of, we called it a GEMBA assessment where you would go to the floor and you would ask questions to, that would help you ascertain whether the system that is meant to reinforce respect, the systems that are meant to reinforce humble leadership, are they working? How Were they working? Uh, is everybody using them? How well are they using them? Um, and there has to be a way to evaluate everybody and talk about the results and, and then to either improve the system, uh, or, you know, we used to have a monthly, uh, leadership meeting with all of the exempt employees and hourly, uh, employees like maintenance techs, uh, trainers, um, team leaders and so forth. So there's, you know, there's 100 plus people in the room. And about every five months I would have to reiterate, hey, uh, uh, 5s. What are we doing? Um, um, I was in several places. I'd say I wouldn't specifically call somebody out, but like, these are the kinds of things I'm seeing. Or, um, visual management. Um, um, guys, I'm visiting the boards and I'm seeing this and I'm seeing that. And then like two weeks later, I'm in a team with, uh, someone who was in that meeting. I'm looking at their board and it's not right. You can call the team leader over. And I say, see, this is what we were talking about right here. And then. And they're like, okay, I see what you're talking about. That's the energy you have to put into it. Uh, um, if you don't do that, literally everything just gradually falls.

Speaker A: Uh, and what I hear you describing is pointing these things out in a way that's both, you know, maybe coach and challenger.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always found, you know, with my, uh, with my directors and vice presidents, uh, I could specifically tell them, you guys are blowing it. And I can tell what they're doing wrong. Every level below that, focus more on positive reinforcement. I would thank them, uh, profusely for the good things they were doing. And I would say to either the manager or the team leader, hey, here's. Here's an opportunity. You guys are doing great. You know, but maybe we could this, maybe we could do that. Uh, and then I'd go to their director and I'd say, this is what I told the manager. Would you please make sure it happens? Yeah, um, um, I. And I don't know that necessarily that approach is correct, but I was always more upbeat and positive. The manager, the team leader and the team members, uh, the directors, VPs, knew exactly where they stood with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Because, I mean, it's an example of situational leadership of, uh, you know, it's not that. I think in my experience, it's not that frontline people can't handle it, but when you have that positional power, you know, People are intimidated often by the title. They don't know you as well because they don't interact with you as much as your direct reports would interact with you. Um, I mean, I think there's somebody said for taking, um, you know, just a, ah, different approach or. I don't know if you've ever run across. I've seen leaders. You'll go and well intended. And they'll ask a question that at a peer level wouldn't be threatening or. But you know, they come down to the shop floor and ask a question along the lines of like, well, you know, tell me why you did this instead of doing that. You know, maybe it was meant as a question of humble inquiry, but it comes across as a criticism. Yeah, chewed me out. I'm like, he asked a question. But it's a matter of perspective on that.

Speaker C: When. When. Uh, so every three months, the directors of vice presidents and I, 12 of us, would go to every team and the team would tell us. We'd give them an hour to tell us about all the great things they've done in the last three months. And I would tell my, my directors, vice presidents, we're not going there to show them how smart we are. Not going there to read a comment that shows that we get it. We are going there to let them impress us. So all you do is you, you nod and you smile and you like, wow, you look impressed. And it wasn't hard to look impressed because they were doing impress her.

Speaker A: Right, Right.

Speaker C: And inevitably you, you, you see one or two things that, like this should not be. Or they talk about something be like, well, I wish they weren't saying that, but I, I, the whole time I'm smiling saying, thank you. Fantastic. I can circle back with the manager afterwards, you know, and try to correct a situation or fix something. Um, yeah, I think, I think it's really important that, that you talk to people, you know. You know, with my kids, I've got great kids. I got six wonderful kids. And my first five were boys. And, uh, and I was very demanding of them when they were younger, but I was also very positive. And I think it was a good mix. When my oldest was 12 or 13 was when I realized I got no control over how this thing turns out. I mean, this can go any direction. And I realized that I needed to have a connection with him. Yeah, I need to be probably at this point less demanding control and more praising, appreciative. And I, I shifted. And I, uh, think it made a big difference in the teenage years for My boys and I. And I think it worked on the floor. Mhm.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And it, it, there's a difference between praising things that are happening versus, you know, it doesn't sound like there's any part of what you're describing it saying like, oh, you go, you should go blow smoke and even if things are terrible, tell them how great it is. It's not that. It's got to be sincere and really in uh, celebration of improvement. Even if it's not perfection. Because nothing's perfect. Right, Right.

Speaker C: It's got to be, it's got to be sincere, it's got to be specific. I'm not finger guns. Great job. And be timely. You know, if you see something worth praising, do it. And I would say, whether it's family or neighbors or work, um, I mean, I call it out. And um, I think it's a good habit to get into. Um, you can always circle back and ask somebody to do something better.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Gary, maybe, um, one final question here. As you are in this role, um, you know, with the MBE program at Ohio State, they always want you to say the Ohio State University.

Speaker C: Me too.

Speaker A: You did it. Be very casual about that. Um, yeah. As an executive at residence. What I, you probably wouldn't, um, fight back. You, I don't know you very well, but it seems like lifelong. We like the phrase lifelong learner. Would you wear that mantle?

Speaker C: I hope so. I hope so. I do a lot of reading, uh, from anybody I can. People like you. I, uh, want to learn what I can. Yeah.

Speaker A: So what are you learning from the students at the MBOE program?

Speaker C: You, uh, know, I, the reason why. And I've been associated with the MBOE program for years because, uh, I like what they do there. I like the program. And uh, I'm very impressed. And um, so I've been, I've been a fan for years. And so they, they started inviting me to teach a course here. Not a course, but, uh, you know, to come in for a couple hours.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And um, happy to do that. And now I'm, now I'm mentoring a, uh, student. I'm on my second student, uh, that I'm mentoring through the school year. And I just, um, I think they heard me. Every time I could say something nice about the MBE program, I was, I did. And they're like, geez, you know, why don't you come do it for real? You know, come represent us and be part of us. So I, uh, you know, I, I've done meetings with, uh, the whole business school with, with different professors and it's a great program. So. And I didn't, I didn't go to, to the Ohio State University. I went to byu, um, but BYU didn't ask me to do it.

Speaker A: So, so here you are. But are there different perspectives, um, that you're learning from? The students are younger to mid career, generally speaking.

Speaker C: They are, yeah. And a lot of mid career, uh, people in the MBOE program. I think if anything, uh, I'm gaining increased confidence in our future. Uh, I'm seeing these up and comers. Uh, Bruce Hamilton once asked me about five years ago, Gary, when we're all dead, who's gonna lead this thing? You know? And um, I, I have a lot of confidence that uh, there's the people coming up through the ranks who uh, uh, who care and whose heads and hearts are in the right place. Uh, that's probably the thing, the biggest thing that I've learned. A lot of energy, a lot of people, they're over you.

Speaker A: Well, a great thing to learn and a great thing, um, to pass along. So thank you Gary for passing along, uh, you know, stories and, and reflections and lessons learned. I mean it sounds like it was more fun than pain for you, Brian, during that career. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I uh, think in the end, uh, I just am, feel so grateful for what I experienced, for what I learned, for the relationships I developed. Uh, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Gary. Um, again, our guest, uh, Gary Peterson, retired from O.C. tanner. Um, is there, is there a there? I know there's a book in you. Do you. I'm going to put you on the spot and ask you, are you going to write it?

Speaker C: We're actually, I'm working with uh, several different people on books. Uh, I work with Michael Martin on one.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker C: I'm also working with Peter Hines and Cheryl Jekyll. Her book on the human value stream. Uh, theirs is the academic side. I'm telling stories that exemplify the ideas. Yeah, we'll have a couple of books out there, uh, which I look forward to.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: And I'm very busy with coaching, uh, mentoring with. I've got some clients. So uh, I'm retired from O.C. tanner. I'm, I'm still working a few days. Well, a few afternoon, few afternoons a week and uh, and loving it. I'm just, I'm just loving my life right now.

Speaker A: Well, good. Well, thank you for taking some time to join us here today. May, maybe we can do this again sometime.

Speaker C: Love to Mark thank you very much. Always a pleasure.

Speaker A: Thank you, Gary.

Speaker C: Thanks for listening. This has been the Lean Blog podcast for Lean News and Commentary. Updated, uh, daily. Visit www.leanblog.org if you have any questions or comments about this podcast, email mark@leanpodcastmail.com.

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